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The Glenn Show: Revisiting the Trayvon Martin Case | Part 2 | with John McWhorter
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
- If you missed it, watch Part 1: • The Glenn Show: Revisi...
Glenn and John respond to criticism of their discussion of The Trayvon Hoax 0:33
Why Glenn finds the film credible despite its creator’s conspiracy theories 12:43
John: The public didn’t get the full story of Zimmerman’s 911 call 19:06
The case as a forerunner of larger dynamics in American political culture 23:58
Did Zimmerman have a rational prejudice? 28:50
Glenn and John ain’t running away 34:55
What was Trayvon thinking? 37:33
Glenn Loury (Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs, Brown University) and John McWhorter (Columbia University, Lexicon Valley, The Atlantic)
Recorded December 10, 2019
![What Killed Michael Brown? | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]](/img/1.gif)
Proud of yall brothers💪🏾. There are many of us out here who refuse to be manipulated by the media
Me same opinion as you.
Thank you for your cogent discussion and analysis! As a former Professor at one of the most prestigious universities in the country of CInema Studies/Critical Theory I have seen the pervasive fear among my former colleagues at the university to speak up or even give a thumbs up on a FB post that gives even the slightest critique to cut through the thick veil of public gaslighting by the mass media and mob mentality. A thumbs up on even a slightly critical post of the dominant narrative can cost you your job these days.
This is now the case with the medical profession and sciences with regard to all things covid. No one is willing to risk all that they've worked for to do or say the right thing. Why would you? We are living in an insane asylum with the inmates running the show.
Academia is of course the root of the cultural psychopathy that is Woke - and the Trayvon case (I now realise) was one of its first manifestations.
The media was already captured and corrupted at that time.
I made over 200 videos concerning this case during the time of the trial. I can tell you that many people ignore the facts and go right to violence. I had more death threats And it was considered acceptable. RUclips didn’t even blink an eye.
Currently this "jogger" in coastal GA was just rolled out in media and all the usual suspects want "justice". None care about the facts or have patients to let the system work. They think their 30 second opinion is fact and the Law needs to punish.punish.punish.
Me same opinion as you.
When I heard that a Brown professor was involved in this presentation I immediately thought it was a debunk. I’m pleasantly surprised how intellectually honest you both are. Thank you.
me too.. and articulate!.. We need many more black men as these to lead their people and communities, yet they readily admit those people will not listen to them. In the end, its the heart that is wicked, and it aint black or white.. its red.. the color of all our blood.....Well maybe not the Queen. :)
Totally agree
If Trayvon never met George, he'd still be dead or serving life in prison, at best.
ACTUALLY, Trayvon SHOULD have been in jail; but Obama had leaned on the Miami-Dade police not to arrest more black students than white students. So they caught Trayvon with marijuana and stolen items from the break-ins; but they didn't arrest him, just let him go cuz of Obama. So Trayvon thought he was above the law, and decided to case some more homes, and got caught by neighborhood watch; and so he got violent, and rightfully shot. So Obama was right: he DID get shot because he was black-- but because OBAMA PLAYED THE RACE CARD.
“I’ll apologise if I’m wrong”
Shame Al Sharpton can’t do the same
Ppl are suspicious of what they don't know. Simple as that. I'm gonna pull the "my black friend" card here but if I didn't know him and know what type of person he is then he could be up to anything. I wouldn't put anything past him. . Same goes for any white person I don't know. Esp if you see someone lurking around your area. An area with a rise in crime. It's not always about race. I'm an equal opportunity distrust-er of people. I mean that. Not everyone is obssessed with the skin color of those who surround them.
The issue of had George Zimmerman stayed in the vehicle none of this would’ve happened is it not an argument and should never be brought up in this discussion. At least if we’re going to be intellectually honest. This is the neighborhood watch captain and he just saw a suspicious young man run out of view. We’ve had some really bad actors in the neighborhood and George was putting his life on the line to protect the mothers who had no husbands. You really have to study the case to understand what was going on in the neighborhood and it was much more than just some black guys robbing people. George was a hero in this case and he was vilified.
I agree, Yes, Z set a series of events in motion by making the decision to get out of his car. However, it could equally be argued that TM set a series of events in motion by going out for a walk that evening, or that the community set those events in motion by establishing a neighborhood watch, etc. Or it could be argued that TM set the events in motion once he illegally attacked Z. Any different action along the way could have changed the outcome. That's why we declare certain actions to be legal, and others to be illegal.
I don't think George is a hero. He didn't stop any harm or save anyone. He was just doing the neighborhood watch thing.
I do think the "if Zimmerman stayed in his vehcile then Trayvon would still be alive" argument is invalid or the statement is pointless because George could have gotten out of his car, looked around and turned back when the police told him to and Trayvon would stil be alive as long as Trayvon doesn't jump him or even talk to him. There's one action that clearly lead to the violence escalation.
J Zebes George Zimmerman was doing a service for the community, one that upsets the underclass. Because they don’t like to be spotlighted. There were many break-ins in the neighborhood and there were many single moms in the area where Trayvon was headed. He matched the description of the people who are breaking into the other buildings. Had a single mom and her child been harmed by Trayvon Martin, you would be blaming Zimmerman for not being more aggressive in his monitoring of the community. Especially if that mom and child were black.
It’s not a crime to get out of your car, but it is a crime to attack somebody and bash their skull on the concrete. This doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out and you don’t have to go to law school for it either.
You realize that George was very close to his truck when the attack happened, which was four minutes after Trayvon had disappeared into the darkness.
That means Trayvon Martin turned around and came back and started the fight. And that’s what the trial proved.
I came here to mirror this line of thought. Zimmerman can defend himself by staying in his car and Martin can't assault Zimmerman. But that's not a good lesson. If you see something, put your eyes down and continue with your life as if you didn't. Martin may still be alive and in jail along with the people influencing him.
@@edzebes or maybe Trayvon could have burglarized a home and killed the occupants, we cant know
A very fair and thoughtful analysis. In trying to surmise why Trayvon would attack Zimmerman, you left out that he had been involved recently in several violent outbursts, attacking a bus driver for instance.
Yall are a dying breed man. I wish it was more guys like yall out here calling a spade a spade
Interesting choice of wording.
@@jfearless3420 what do you mean?
@@kenzam5537 well we are talking about trayvon martin and you chose to use a word that is well known as a racial slur....spade.
@@jfearless3420 spade isnt a racial slur dude that's a well known idiom
@@kenzam5537 its both. There are several racial slurs for black folk. Spade is one of them!
Trayvon was likely profiled, in part due to suspicious behavior and recent events in that area. And if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and if it was for being profiled unjustly, wouldn't attacking Zimmerman further perpetuate the false belief that young black men are violent and predisposed to criminal behavior, which leads to people profiling young black men in this way? Trayvon had every right to confront Zimmerman and ask what his problem was, but why did he have to attack him? And so severely? What preconceptions could he have about Zimmerman which led him to his actions? Many of these answers we will likely not have the answers to but still need to be considered if we ever want to close the case and begin mending race relations. We have to start seeing each other as human beings created in the image of God with infinite dignity, worth and potential, and stop being controlled by our emotions and use logic and reason fueled by passion not bewitched by it.
Who would have even considered that Rachel and Diamond are maternal half sisters.
32:09 "He shouldn't have had a gun." Why not?
32:15 "He should have gotten the $#!+ beaten out of him and that's how it would have ended."
How do you know that's how it would have ended? Apparently Martin was bashing his head against the concrete. Zimmerman had a broken nose, laying on his back and was choking on his own blood.
Please study up on Traumatic Brain Injuries. It could have ended in Zimmerman dying, having a catastrophic stroke that lead to him being in a persistent vegetative state.
The visual cortex of the brain is in the back (occipital lobe), so he could have been blinded for life. He could have been permanently disabled and even spent the rest of his life in a nursing home due to a Traumatic Brain Injury.
It is incredibly (I hate to say it because I admire the heck out of Dr. McWhorter) stupid to say he should have gotten the stuff beaten out of him. Zimmerman did not "have it coming". If his testimony is true, he was completely innocent and had no culpability whatsoever in the assault.
McWhorter asks why would Trayvon be so MAD to jump Zimmerman - he has NOT been paying attention to the texts: Trayvon was on edge because Diamond Eugene was messing with his head and he had been arguing with her for days and on the verge of breaking up. He had a Chip on his shoulder, because his ego and manhood were suffering from rejection from this girl who he said in text he wanted to "DIE"...
SocialBettors Trayvon’s autopsy showed liver damage consistent with heavy lean use. Lean side effect is aggression and anger.
Big Papi What is heavy lean use?
@@rebelwithacause5217 I think its a concoction of a cough mixture with codein(opioid) mixed with sugar drinks and candy to give a high of some sort. Therefore heavy use of that cocncoction which is called lean
@MrSilverbirch Yes, I've heard of this being used by some young people. Didn't know this was connected to the Trayvon Martin case.
LOL, McWhorter is a noted Linguist...and uses the best word possible to describe some of the things we are told: "That is SHIT!"
I am so glad that you are bringing out the truth of transcripts (the whole thing). Thank you. We as a people are divided because of those who are trying to manipulate the truth! We need to stop listening to them!
John: Why did he have a gun? The question is irrelevant. Why did he have a car? Why did he walk the street?
It doesn't matter why he had a gun. He had a right to have a gun, and the fact that he needed to use it to save his own life rather eviscerates any argument against his having that right.
John lives in NYC, are guns legal there? If not would explain the question because of John's point of reference. Guns are not 'normal' for alot of people so to equate one with a car is a huge shift in values.
The Critic they mention has not even read the book or watched the movie, yet the dares to impugn these men's credibility...this is the kind of bullying which goes on to pressure Academics to NOT say anything that questions politically correct causes.
Suppressing information is just as bad as making it up. The philosophy professor sounds no more credible than the person he impugns.
Thank you.
typical :(
Now we are going through the same Mass Media promoted Race Arson with the Ahmaud Arbery case. (Arbery family represented by Trayvon's Attorney Benjamin Crump) . The Media unequivocally calling him just an "innocent jogger" and posting pictures of him in Tuxedos and smiling innocently. Just like they did with Trayvon
Hey Guys. The gun culture in Florida is a lot different than many places. You can literally walk into a pawn shop or flea market and leave with a gun. What I’m saying is having a gun in Sanford is no biggie.
Good analysis. I knew you would bring up the Obama film Gilbert made. That doesn't in any way invalidate his work on the TM case. He presented a very compelling case and it is up to the courts to determine whether or not the state or Martin's family defrauded the justice system.
What's so bad about the Obama video?
As to why was TM so mad? Earlier that day Diamond Broke up with him. It’s in the text records. Most likely his phone conversation with Diamond was contentious. He also was recently kicked out of his home and was dealing with delinquent parents and a system that was failing him. Why would he not be angry?
Thank you for this part 2.
Thank you for this comment.
As a lifelong progressive, I've listened to these 2 giants of nuanced thought with integrity for over 2 years (as of 2023). I'm deeply distressed by people creating these hoaxes. It's long been that any person who's part of a "marginalized" group-- I'm thinking particularly, women and Black people have not been believed (or pished for raising issue of violence against them). But, what these hoaxes do is take us backwards to the old trope tht "Black people lie"/"women lie"...and history has it that ONE liar has more weight than 500 people telling the truth. I was glad that Smolette was exposed & faced consequences for his lies. These hoaxes do NOT bring us any closer to a just society--quite the opposite
It's been a LONG time since black people, as a group, could truthfully be said to be victims of white racism or prejudice.Although the race agitators are trying their best to turn back the clock.
Gentlemen, thank-you for your honesty. Honesty is the pinnacle of moral character.
I saw the film. I'm persuaded.
The deceit, the manipulation, the exploitation and the hustling shown by the family and its lawyers is, sadly, something we've seen before.
If you watch the film, don't pause to stare too much at the texts. Doing so is sort of like looking at Medusa. You won't turn to stone, but you'll forget how to read and write and the loss of discipline and logic in your mind will shave 40 points off of your IQ. I restored myself by reading the first 100 words in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.
It's true that Trayvon wouldn't have been killed if Zimmerman never go out of his vehicle. It's also true that Trayvon wouldn't have been killed if he didn't decide to beat Zimmerman to within an inch of his life. Trayvon bears ALL responsibility for his death, just as each of us bears ALL responsibility for each of our decisions.
And it’s worth noting about the “pursuit” or “following” aspect here. The book goes into more detail than the Documentary. Zimmerman sees TM standing in an unusual spot, not walking down the sidewalk. Standing in between Townhome rows, in the rain. He stops his car, observes, and calls the 911-type number. Trayvon approaches his car, walks around it, and then rapidly walks away. The 911 person asks him, which way did he go? GZ gets out off his car and approaches the last spot he saw him, at some point the 911 person asks are you following him, do not follow him. GZ says Ok, turns around and starts walking back to his car. TM jumps out and the rest is history. The point of this is TM, where GZ last saw him while in his car, was 30 seconds away from his Father’s house. No one seems to want to ask the question why didn’t TM just go home?
Why didn't Trayvon go home? Trayvon supporters will answer, but they ignore the evidence and don't realize how absurd their answers are (or maybe they do realize it but don't care). "Trayvon didn't want to lead his attacker to his house" is amongst the most ridiculous. So is, "Why does he have to go home?" and "Trayvon has a right to be anywhere he wants, so he didn't have to go home." All are absurd responses, and all AVOID addressing the evidence that demonstrates Trayvon was extraordinarily close to home and hundreds of feet beyond Zimmerman's view and voluntarily returned hundreds of feet rather than go a few extra feet to the safety of his home. Their heads are simply comfortable buried in the sand, and they cannot be bothered to consider evidence that disrupts their "comfort".
@@bradlee2594 What really blows my mind is his Father didn’t start looking for him until the next morning?!? According to their own narrative he was “just a kid going to the store for some skittles” (a 30 min round trip on foot). Wouldn’t most parents be wondering where tf he is after an hour? I suppose it’s possible his Father and the Girlfriend weren’t home that night, but even if that’s true, the “little brother” had already called him once because he was gone so long. And the phone call was made prior to Trayvon encountering GZ for the first time. The whole story is fishy, and it was all about getting an arrest. Everyone knew they had NO case against Zimmerman, all they needed was an arrest so they could sue the HOA.
@@baalbezub6848 - You are correct. That Trayvon's Father did not start looking until the next morning is but one of many glaring problems both much of the media and public are entirely disinterested in addressing.
I'm new to Mr. Loury, but I've thoroughly enjoyed the clear thinking and interesting storytelling in Mr. McWhorter's books on linguistics.
If Trayvon would have just walked home he would be alive today
I love John.... so honest!! He is not afraid!!!
I am a new fan! All I want is the truth and people to stop being led by nefarious people with wrong motives!!!!
We have a right to have a gun like we have a right to free speech. Why would you question that unless you’ve been brainwashed to believe that it’s wrong to carry a gun. I wish you would spend a little time examining the purpose of the Second Amendment and be as thoughtful as you have been on this video.
This was an excellent discussion between two brilliant professors. I am a bit late to the party, but I will pray that justice is served in this case. I understand why GZ lost his mind for a while. Try to put yourself thru what he went thru, just some of it, or maybe try to get thru all of it, its unbelievable!!! This fraud on the court cannot stand!! I pray there has to be someone brave enough in the legal system to right this wrong. As Professor McWhorter says, you cannot build a movement for civil rights based on LIES.
Zimmerman almost lost his life TWICE. First by Trayvon. Then by the lying prosecution, the lying media, and the court of public opinion. After surviving both, he continued/s to receive death threats, his wife left him, and he is forever an international pariah.
Plea!se continue to be courageous in pursuit of the truth
The irony that the very people (African Americans) who abhor the media are the same people so quick to believe it.
Apparently: Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to answer the Dispatcher's question about where the suspect (TM) had gone, but after Zim got out & of the car & had walked some distance, the Dispatcher asked Zim if he were following the suspect. Zim said, Yes. Then the disptacher said. "We don't need you to do that." Then Zim answered, OK, & headed back for this vehicle, but didn't get there becs TM attacked him.
EO GEEZLE PUSS
HE ALREADY KNEW WHERE TRAVON WENT BECUZ THE DISPATCHER ASKED HIM AND HE SAID DOWN THE BACK .
IF U LOOK AT THE VIDEO U WILL SEE HE WAS ONLY ABOUT 50 FET FROM HIS CAR NO WHERE NEAR THE T EVIDENTLY U KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS CASE WHERE IS THE PICTURE OF TRAYVONS BUSTED KNUKLES
WHY DIDN T ZIMMERMAN EVER MENTION A COP TOOK HIS PICTURE
WHY DIN T THE COP TURN THAT PHONY ASS PICTURE IN THE SAME NIGHT
I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THIS CASE AND U WILL SEE THE CASE WAS BULL SHIT IT NEVER WAS A FIGHT AND THE COPS THE JUDGE AND THE PROCERCUTIO N WERE ALL ON THS BS CASE
@@gwandaboykins1078 Youve ignored a lot of the things that make up the other side of the argument. As the guys above point out,lots of Gilberts analysis comes from publicly available records and footage.
Zimmerman exited his vehicle prior to Sean Noffke asking him where Trayvon went. Just listen to the non-emergency phone call.
I have done a lot of research on this case, and read thru a lot of comments on various videos, etc. Amazingly, the argument by Trayvon supporters is always exactly the same…..”he shouldn’t have followed him”, “he had no business following him”, “if he didn’t follow him, Trayvon would still be alive”. The argument of whether Zimmerman should have, shouldn’t have, had the right to, will forever be argued. If you objectively look at the facts and evidence, the narrative in the Documentary is much more believable. That being said, let’s assume he followed TM, AND acted in an aggressive, disrespectful manner. My question is what justification is needed for someone to violent beat another person? Credible eyewitness testimony shows exactly how violent it was, (and GZ’s facial and head bruises as well). In a court of law, you would need to establish some type of life threatening self defense. If someone “pisses you off” because they are racially profiling you, that does not justify beating someone violently. But it seems to some, it does.
The complete documentary : ruclips.net/video/QAw5ykIPOBM/видео.html
Excellent discussion in all respects. Re: John's question about Trayvon: "Why is he so mad?" I have no evidence, just intuition. But I believe he's infuriated because he wasn't, in fact, casing any apartments, looking to break in. He was just wandering home on a misty night, possibly high, talking with a girl he liked. He wasn't looking to commit burglary. And Zimmerman--for entirely understandable reasons, given the recent history of break-ins at The Retreat--profiled him. And that pissed him off: being looked at, on THAT particular night, like a criminal. (I say this knowing that he'd been suspended from school several months earlier for carrying "burglary tools." But the fact that he may have committed burglary on another occasion carries no particular weight here.) Trayvon's sense of justice was offended. Nobody, even a sometime burglar, likes being profiled, and Trayvon was feeling fragile because Diamond was messing with his head.
So yes, I'm agreeing with Dr. Loury.
Great job guys. Can't argue with truth.
objective thinkers are rare in this political climate, black or white or whatever color they are. kudos to both of you
Rachel jentell was coached
Damn I thought we black people couldn't be rational
I love rationality I love this video
Listen and watched this video-Concise and intelligent. Thank you both. Can you tell me what has became of Mr. Zimmermans lawsuit..? I find nothing further on this.
It didn't go anywhere. It was a stunt to promote the video. It made people who believe the video think its real.
Has there been any debunk or verification of the film’s premise since all these months … ?
Still none. It's stunning no media outlet is interested in proving or disproving what's presented in the film.
Who is going to disprove this? The media doesn't care because they already convinced millions on the initial lie. You will see many videos on RUclips about Trayvon Martin and read the comments. The media has many people convinced even though it's a lie
The Trayvon Hoax book has a 1,000% more information and documentation than presented in the film. I found the book to be very laborious to read and digest. The book also has photo copies of public records that is extremely compelling. Sadly TM was a bigger problem than his mother or father (divorced) could or would control. The media portrayal of TM was nearly 100% false. In my mind the real truth betrayal is the influence that civil rights attorney, Benjamin Crump had in this case. NO ONE is investigating his activities then, and now. $26 million from George Floyd's death comes to mind. Who? What? Do some research y'all.
It wouldn't have made any difference. What she said had little impact on the story anyways. All that matters is the evidence.
@ 22:05 when they stress the fact that Zimmerman said “okay” to the operator leads to the question why would he later tell the police “I was going after him because they told me they needed me to to know his location”?
Why is he changing his “intent” and falsely claiming that his actions were based on the directions of the non-emergency operator after the taking of Martin’s life?
Zimmerman never said he was "going after him". He clarified, not changed his story, that when the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that", that he was not following Martin but instead trying to get to a spot where he might be able to see where Martin was running to. He then arrived at that spot, which was the "T" sidewalk intersection and told the dispatcher Martin had run away (and obviously meant Zimmerman failed to regain sight of Martin and that Martin was long gone).
3.5 minutes after telling the dispatcher Martin was gone, Martin returned to that same "T" and that is where the violence started. Given this is what the evidence overwhelmingly indicates, why does anyone believe Zimmerman continued following Martin ("disobeying" the dispatcher's "instructions")?
With so many witnesses to the incident, supporting, not contradicting, Zimmerman's version of the story, why do people believe Martin was the one screaming? Whey do they believe Zimmerman was guilty of murder?
Philando was bang sticked because he continued to reach when told multiple times by a screaming cop (who knew what he'd have to do if he didn't stop reaching) to stop reaching.
Philando made the mistake of not keeping his hands on the wheel and awaiting further instruction after he informed the cop he was armed. You cannot continue to operate in the same manner as you were before you made it known there was a bang stick present.
No one has bothered to learn the lesson Philando didn't live to learn.
Thank you for saying that: I hope Dr.s McWhorter and Loury read it.
have to quantify with the word If but If the info about the fighting, drugs, guns, etc. by Trayvon are accurate.
there is a good probability he would not have lived to a ripe old age the way things were going with him.
Hold on. Did you guys actually just realize at the time this was posted that Zimmerman’s life was at stake? This was reported by plenty of people even before the trial was underway. But you guys just now (at the time of this video) heard that?
I’m glad you came to the proper conclusion eventually, but you should be ashamed that it took so long.
Don't forget the money he spent exposing this. I just found this today.
For the same reason the conclusions of this movie are dismissed and ignored by the media, the facts related to police interactions are ignored as well.
You gentlemen rattled off a litany of black men shot by the police. Can you name a single white person shot by the police? The reason you cannot, is not because white people are not shot by the police. White people, as a percent of police interactions, are shot at a higher rate than black people. The CDC and FBI statistics, just like Trayvon Martin’s cell records, are in the public realm.
The loss of life is tragic. Any life.
The police represent the teeth of the state. How can the left be aghast of the teeth but not the body whole?
ruclips.net/video/mT2rlJe9cuU/видео.html
A philosophy professor who engages in in ad hominem attack and freely admits that he did not watch the film or read the book. I wish I knew where he was teaches to make sure that my children do not go to that university.
Another phenomenal vlog by two men willing to take on the slings and arrows of the lib-left mob. Kudos to John and Glenn👏🏻🙌🏻
This case is just one of many which explains why the media's credibility is in the toilet.
Amoungst many other reasons, I was especially infuriated when it came out (or I realized) that the picture used for Trayvon was from when he was a child, not a large 17 year old young man. That picture made him look like a harmless little boy. And why would a man in his 20s need to use a gun to take on an unarmed Urkel🤔 I was hoodwinked🤬
The Trayvon Martin Hoodie Effect. The irony of his white hoodie used to depict innocence, now is copied by so many black youth, some of those use the hoodie as part of mischievous crimes.
36:50 McWhorter with the smack down
I know I love it. McWhorter strikes me as someone who has been bullied a lot in his life and it is always awesome to see these kind of proper guys take off the gloves and swing. Nothing more awesome than to see the bullied and proper punch back!
so, just found you guys. started watching, then paused and went to watch the documentary. As to your question at the end as to why trayvon was so angry. It was mentioned at points during the video, and I think Gilbert may have overlooked this when he was offering his theory. But trayvon and diamond seemed to be fighting over text messages during that day. seems to me that fight is probably why he was so angry and needed to let off some steam.
I noticed that. You also have to include rage against being "dissed".
I would love an opportunity to speak with you gentleman about my Higher Education experience. It’s rare but shocking
I'm personally not sure whether Gilbert is completely trustworthy. However, when the media initially covered the trial there were tons of people who had an irrational and emotionally motivated investment in the narrative that Zimmerman is racist and guilty. Many of those people also tended to support Obama without even a minute level of critical reflection.
There was only one "witness" if you could call John Goode an actual witness. John arrived after the fight has already started.
So, you see there are only two actual witnesses to this event Trayvoon and Zimmerman. Trayvoon is dead and Zimmerman is not talking.
So based on what statement made by Zimmerman and the physical evidence ( Zimmerman's potentially serious injuries) and what little Mr Goode could add, supports Zimmerman's claim of self defense almost entirely.
We will never know the whole story .
Love u 2 u require me to use my dictionary which I like. Good conversation, I am with u not agreeing with Joel's reasons of the color behind it. I DO appreciate your observations and facts about the situation.
In the area, Sanford is well known for gangs and crime.
What do you think about Kendrick Johnson?
Joel has another documentary, No Place Like Utopia. I would like to hear your discussion on that. He explains why they want to silence the opposition.
John is a talented voice actor, for a moment I thought I was really listening in to the 9-1-1 call there
I don't like these "if he stayed in his car he'd be alive". What purpose does it serve? You don't know what would happen. You might as well claim "if he stayed in his car Martin would have lived and killed some innocent guy with his gun he had planned to purchase". He might as well slip and crush is head the very next moment. See what the problem is?
I recently watched Joel Gilbert's film on Trayvon Martin. John McWhorter touched on the sheer labor of prying into the life on teenagers. I want to add to that. Gilbert's level of interest in the alleged sexual activities of these teens--female teens-- was troubling. So much of the film was about one girl's texts--about food, relationships, the fact that she was unfaithful to a boyfriend, etc.
Gilbert apparently had no compunction in spreading this girl's tweets even further. He made her look silly and shallow when I don't think she was--after all, social media posts are frequently light and trivial. Yes, these posts were in the public domain but it was still unkind to further broadcast them, holding her up to wide public ridicule and probably making it harder for her to find a stable relationship.
This girl has apparently turned our rather well--going to college, working, starting her own online fashion business. Really, Gilbert could have made the same point about Rachel Jeantel's testimony being fabricated without publicly humiliating a girl for tweets made when she was a TEENAGER.
What if Trayvon Martin was trying to subdue someone who was threatening him?
What is the level of evidence there? Not saying that's what happened, but I always thought it was most plausible.
And don't I recall weak evidence collection at the outset since it was assumed to be self-defense?
I don't remember all the details of the case, but it really speaks to the significance of well-written law, and the real-life impact of getting it wrong, which Florida did with SYG.
Make your judgment withe the evidence we have. Too many people are speculating on what happened
35:30 if your goal is to shut me up, that ain't gonna work!
Thank you for your endorsement
Zimmerman started nothing except for a police follow-up. Martin threw the first punch, committing criminal assault, then escalated to felony battery and attempted murder. Martin’s parents are infinitely more culpable in starting this causal chain of events than a concerned citizen is.
How do you know Martin threw the first punch? You dont. Hes dead so we dont have his side of the story. Presuming the wagner photo isnt a fake the injuries to his face could have been self-inflicted, done by trayvon after zimmerman attacked him first, or zim could have even slipped on the sidewalk and fell on his face.
I don't have to *know* anything. Infinite possibilities notwithstanding, all compiled evidence is consistent with Zimmerman's account.
@@jeffbollen5276 if you are referring to Dr. Vincent Di Maios testimony its flawed. To begin with, Dr. Di Maio didnt take into account the dynamic between wet clothing and wet human skin. Wet clothes stick to wet human skin so even if trayvon leaned over the clothes would have stuck to his skin.
Plus, based on how trayvon was sitting on zimmerman, trayvon wouldnt have to lean over very much to punch zim or slam his head. Tray had long arms. He didnt need to lean over, and it would be a stupid idea to lean over if you are punching someone in the face in the mount position because the person can grab your head, poke your eyes, and/or flip you over if you are leaning over.
You also can get more range of motion punching downard as well as build much more momentum if you are sitting up. Lastly, you can keep all your weight centered on him. If you lean youre shifting all your weight in that direction making it possible to knock you off balance.
The only reason he would be leaning over like that would be if zim were pulling him on top of him. Zim went to an mma gym that taught grappling. He might have tried to get trayvon into a choke or keep him from running away.
I know that the gym owner adam pollock claimed that zimmerman hardly knew anything and that he was soft, but he could have also been lying either due to his friendship with zimmerman or the opportunity to help zimmerman become famous to promote his gym. He actually put on his website learn to defend yourself like George Zimmerman. He later took it down.
Anyway, i believe Dr. Di Maio developed his theory from the working theory that trayvon was on top of zimmerman. In other words he put the cart before the horse. He presumed that trayvon was factually on top and explained that the reason the muzzle of the gun touched trays clothing but not trays skin was because tray was leaning over and gravity pulled trays hoodie away from his body.
He didnt look for any other possible way it could have happened ie zimmerman grabbed trayvons hoodie and held him before he shot him which would also explain why the holes didnt match up.
The only thing that suggested trayvon was on top of zimmerman before he was shot from a forensic point of view was the theory that the clothes were away from trayvons body due to gravity pulling the clothing down as trayvon was allegedly leaning over Zimmerman, but if you take into account that the same conditions could be reproduced by zimmerman pulling trayvons hoodie away from his body that blows that theory right out of the water. Trayvon didnt necessarily have to be on top. In fact they could have been standing up, on their knees, lying down facing each other, etc etc.
So where do we get that trayvon was on top? George Zimmerman. Zimmerman said trayvon was on top of him before he shot him. Of course he has plenty of motive to lie. He did have someone corroborate his story. A neighbor by the name of jon good said he saw an individual wearing dark clothing on top of someone wearing lighter clothing and the one on top was punching the one on the bottom mma style. Later this witness recanted most of his statement except he maintained the darker clothing individual was on top of the lighter clothing individual.
The interesting thing in his 911 call he never says he saw one guy on top of another guy punching. He just says he saw two guys wrestling. he heard screams for help and then a gun shot. Where did he get his later details? Was he contacted the following day by zimmerman or a friend like frank taaffe to say "what he saw"? Who knows?
Similarly to my first reply, I don't need to prove beyond reasonable doubt the details of Martin's assault; it was incumbent on the prosecution to prove murder. They didn't because Zimmerman had the wounds, eyewitnesses, character witnesses, and sequence of events to make murder untenable.
@@jeffbollen5276 the prosecution threw the case. They never intended on incarcerating zimmerman. It was all a farce to stop the protests and public pressure.
As i said before they only had one witness (jon good), not witnesses, and he recanted most of his statement. The sequence of events cannot be proven true, and they dont make sense. They are also contradicted by zimmerman when you compare his statements and reenactment video to his non emergency phone call. At trial all the witnesses inevitably said they didnt know for sure if the fighting began at the T intersection or the back entrance. Good said he wasnt sure if trayvon were punching or just holding zimmermans arms down. He didnt see trayvon banging zims head in the concrete, and he wasnt sure who was yelling for help.
The expert forensic witness didnt want to acknowledge that the reason theres a gap between trays clothes and his body was due to someone pulling on his hoodie.
Its because if thats the case trayvon and zimmerman could be in any position. The expert needed to have a reason that trayvon was on top to support zimmermans story so he came up with the theory that the explanation for trays clothes falling away from his body was due to trayvon leaning over and gravity pulling it down.
The problem is tray had long arms. He could easily punch zimmerman without leaning over. Even so his clothes and his skin were wet. His clothes would have been sticking to his body. If he leaned over the clothes would have stayed against his body. They wouldnt have fallen away. The expert didnt take that into account.
Supposedly trayvon was smothering zimmerman with both his hands even though one of his hands alone was big enough to palm zimmermans whole face. Why didnt zimmerman bite??? After he shoots trayvon ends up lying face down with his hands on his heart. Zimmerman says he spread trays arms apart and sat on him. This is contradicted by officer smith and jon manalo who saw zimmerman near the T. Manalos photo shows trays hands towards his chest not spread out.
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Bravo 🎉 Excellent Debate
Larry Elder, Th!omas Sowell look them up
TM was upset … really pissed off … about Diamond. That is the real GF.
The trial dealt with what happened from the instant TM punched GZ in the nose and there afterwards. Everything before hand was not relevant.
Exactly
You two should be proud. Zimmerman's testimony appeared honest & believable. The prosecution and defense were definately pathetic at best and should be investigated thouroughly. Thankfully, two black intellectuals have the bravery to report the statements of Zimmerman and this filmmaker that were never heard in court. I'm not sure of your motivations, but it is heroic. It is an honor to be in your audience and the institutions of education that employ you should be proud. Cassper can go to back to elementary school and learn how to write. Also, maybe 'Dreams of My Real Father" is credible too, yeah, I said it. The point of the documentary is that Obama IS a natural born citizen. The Kenyan royalty father was fake. IMHO, the "birther" thing was an intellectual sandbox, if you know what I mean.
Why do people believe the media but don't believe joel Gilbert?
I believe what I saw in the courtroom. That's all that matters. The evidence.
But a question for both of you guys. As a factual matter what phone number was Trevon calling when he had that conversation with that girl that night? Where does that phone number trace to? That’s a question as to his phone records but what about Rachel’s phone records? What her phone records introduced? Did she not disclose her phone records? What proof does she have that wood back up her story. Wouldn’t her phone records tell us that. Why is no one addressing this point?
The phone number was read out by the prosecution to Rachel Jeantel at the beginning of her testimony and she confirmed that it was her number. But Trayvon Martin's phone records appear to show that the number belonged to her half-sister Brittany Diamond Eugene.
The unedited dispatch was on wikipedia back in the day. You can actually hear is door chime and him moving before We don't need you to do that.
I watched the trial back in 2013(?). That full transcript is accurate.
Actually it's not. The full transcript is even MORE damning (or less, for Zimmerman, as it were).
The full transcript reveals that the dispatcher asked Zimmerman what race Trayvon was TWICE. The first time he was asked Zimmerman said "I can't tell". Zimmerman then went on to describe Trayvon's behavior and outfit before being prompted for his race again by the dispatcher.
What they discuss in this video only highlights the second time the dispatcher asks what race the man was where Zimmerman says "He looks black."
This actually shows that Zimmerman was suspicious of Trayvon EVEN BEFORE he had any idea what race Trayvon was. So it invalidates their speculation that Zimmerman was suspicious of the black man because black men had been burglarizing- the point is moot because Zimmerman was suspicious prior to "thinking" Trayvon looked black. This implies the initial suspicion would have been had even if Trayvon was white, or a Korean grandmother.
You are doing a great job. I commend you. Have you heard the latest on why Obama jumped in to publicize the
Trayvon case? Obamas’s were following the polling in the black community. Obama was losing about 50% of the black vote according to the polls. That 50% of the black were willing to sit out the next election rather than vote for Obama. So how did the Obama team decide to fix the problem. They decided Obama should create the conditions for a race war by coming out strong on the Trayvon case and the Brown case. Also that was genesis of the creation of Black Lives Matter. So all this stuff we are seeing today is Obama’s fault and the media which set the stage for the Democratic Party take over which we are seeing today
Race hustlers
@@Makaidonas Exactly like they did in 2020 with Fentanyl Floyd, when they saw repeated polling that black "likely voters' were polling at FORTY percent approval of Trump!
Diamond Eugene!!!!!!! Should be brought up on charges
She's got the mental capacity of a ten year old. No she shouldn't. Besides I don't believe that guy. Because of her defecits I don't believe she could lie so well on the stand.
It's a really bad idea to attack people. Especially if they have guns.
Tell that to Ahmed arbery, that's exactly what he did
He was mad at life and was taking it out on Zimmerman.
Keep talking, one day civility will come back.
Oh my, where does time fly?
Thank again, George Zimmerman! God bless you! ✝
I watched part 1 then I watched the documentary now I am watching part 2. By the collection of all of this I have reached the conclusion of just much this is an American tale. The origins of America and the sustainability of America has never ever been woven in truth and purity. I see tragic events exploited all the time.
To keep a steady balance I make sure not be easily swayed and also not to be one-sided in my way of thinking.
With all of this said. Why would I ever hold Zimmerman’s account to be truthful? The man lied directly to the police on camera & said he was told to go after Martin. His lie was to justify his actions so when he says he was hit first I truly believe that to be to justify his actions. He also said that when he told the emergency operator “yeah” to the question of him following him the context was “no”. The man got out of his car and went after him to see where he was going because “they always get away”. He had not witnessed him do anything at this point other than stand in the rain.
He was not a pudgy little man at the time of the incident he was an adult male who received over a years worth of MMA training and was in shape. He also had violent tendencies which he expressed towards his wife whom btw he never attended her trial when she attended his faithfully. Keep in mind she was on trial for covering for him and lying to the authorities on his behalf the same thing he did.
The framing of the story does not have Martin’s involvement or consent. As it stands the man who factually abused his wife & lied to police about his actions regarding the the night in question took the life of a boy who had not committed a crime and was not worthy of apprehension.
You appear to have strayed away from keeping a steady balance. Zimmerman was indeed incorrect when he told police the dispatcher had asked him to get to where he could see Martin (which to some, means follow Martin). But this does not necessarily mean Zimmerman lied. It means he was wrong. It means he lacked accuracy. This inaccuracy can be explained by the fact the dispatcher, not once but twice, told Zimmerman to let him know if Martin does anything else. In Zimmerman's mind, right, wrong or otherwise, he believed the dispatcher was telling him to keep an eye on Martin until police arrive - and if that meant following Martin, Zimmerman believed himself to be "cooperating" with the dispatcher's instructions.
Maybe I'm wrong. But asserting Zimmerman lied about this to justify his actions - and not consider that Zimmerman was perceivably simply inaccurate is not "balanced".
You said, *He had not witnessed him do anything at this point other than stand in the rain."* This is categorically false. He saw Martin on the side of and in the front yard of a home he knew Martin did not live. He saw Martin, who was talking on the phone with his friend, acting what Zimmerman perceived to be odd (not getting out of the rain and looking at the houses). Not once, but twice, Zimmerman reported Martin coming toward him (who was following who at that point)? Again, your take lacks balance.
@@bradlee2594 He didn’t know him, he didn’t know where he lived, he wasn’t even on duty which he said himself. You believe what Zimmerman said but you know he’s a liar he lied on camera to the police saying he was told to follow him by the non emergency dispatch. You know he wasn’t told that because you heard the conversation. You also know that he lied to the police after he took Martin’s life. You believe a liar? That’s your choice, I choose not to.
@@bradlee2594 Your response to me was if you were going to tell me that he called in and reported a crime. 2 people know what happened, one is the dead and the one who killed them is a liar who lied about why and what he did to the people who arrest killers. That’s all absolutely true. His wife lied about him to “protect” him and he left her on trial by herself, you also defend him and are then forced to ignore his lies after killing someone.
@@interaction144 - *"He didn’t know him, he didn’t know where he lived, he wasn’t even on duty which he said himself. "*
All true. But what relevance you're implying is unclear.
*"You believe what Zimmerman said but you know he’s a liar he lied on camera to the police saying he was told to follow him by the non emergency dispatch. You know he wasn’t told that because you heard the conversation."*
No, your claim of me is inaccurate. I do not know he's a liar and do not know he lied on camera, and neither do you. Our *opinions* differ on this point, and I explained why in my first reply to you. So if you'd like to be seen as someone who is balanced, please don't tell me what I know and assert your *opinion* as fact when it's not.
raw data is better than edited video
George Zimmerman is my hero.
Glenn and John:
I doubt that Obama's father is anyone other than he says it is. But: I would never have doubted that the witness in the Zimmerman trial was anyone other than who she claimed to me.
Have either of you watched the film 'Dreams of my real father'?
[BTW: Love your call out to First Things. :) ]
38:53 player or being played
If i had never heard of George Zimmerman but he was breaking into my car and the police asked me to describe him I'd def wouldn't say he was white. I'd say he looks Hispanic to me. So this idea it was a black vs White thing is dishonest
It is close enough to white on black crime and that's all the media and democrats need
34:37. You can't. I don't believe any sane person chooses his beliefs.
Rachael Jeantel might make good running mate for Hillary. She's clearing qualified using the Kamal Harris example.
If the shoe is on the other foot, you better have the same energy to stand ouo for the black person. Even though I know it would be really hard for you to so that.
20:17 to 20:27 you said that zimmerman got out of his car after this exchange. Zimmerman was already out of his vehicle when the police asked him if he were following him and zimmerman said okay. People dont think zimmerman was a racist because of edited transcripts. It was because zimmerman shot an unarmed black teen that people think hes racist.
NBC's editing of the recorded phone call did indeed paint Zimmerman in a negative aspect, and that indeed included a negative racial aspect. Three NBC employees were dismissed as a result and NBC issued an on-air apology. You are correct that people also think Zimmerman was racist for shooting an unarmed black teen, but those same people completely dismiss the evidence that supports Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon attacked him and used the cement sidewalk as a weapon and then continued attacking him while Zimmerman screamed his head off yelling for help. According to the actual evidence - if racism existed, it was not from Zimmerman.
People think that the registered Democrat, Obama supporting, son of a Hispanic immigrant is racist for shooting a black 17 year old who broke his nose, knocked him down, beat his head against the pavement and refused to stop when a neighbor yelled for him to stop? Huh. I thought it was due to the false media narrative the George Zimmerman was a white guy who stalked and killed the "innocent" little boy that Trayvon was depicted as.
@@josephhoran9489 unfortunately theres no real proof zimmerman's nose was broken, that he was knocked down by anyone, or that his head was bashed into the concrete. His personal physician said his nose was broken. That's not proof. Your own personal physician will say anything. The wagner photo is very suspicious. It looks fake. The bridge of Zimmerman's nose is inexplicably more narrow than pictures of zimmerman's nose taken before and after the wagner photo. He also looks thinner in the wagner photo. If you look at pics of zimmerman taken at the police station shortly after George arrives for questioning his nose looks perfectly fine. Theres no sign of a break. The wounds on zimmerman's head were minor as serino had said at trial and as what is seen in the photos taken at the police station. They were just scratches. Not consistent with your head being bashed into the concrete. You cant blame the media or anyone else for thinking race might have been a factor. Trayvon didnt have a record. He wasnt armed. He wasnt committing a crime at the time he was shot and killed. Zimmerman, however, did have a record, and he had a restraining order against him from a former girlfriend/fiance. It doesnt look good. People have come forward saying he is racist. Recently he was recorded using the n-word.
@23:00 John give this Gilbert account of the transcript as being the truth. Even though Gilbert has shown to be a lie
38:45
hell yes.
tho i wouldn't be trayvon levels of mad, but i would feel VERY-- honestly speaking-- threatened.
Im a black network engineer out of NY, Theres no debate here zimmerman is in the wrong, i dislike you professors you people analyze and idolize insignificant details as a sellpoint to people but always never get to the big picture because thats boring or doesnt sell.
Some folks want a final answer and over analysis is just going to ruin the final solution this happens alot in IT. Spare us the useless details.
Blue Jay the fact that the first thing that came out of your mouth on your comment is that you are black shows you already think you have a better understanding than someone who isn’t black. In other words you are saying others are unequal in this conversation and you have the high ground because of your race. Let me save you some time here...no one cares that you are black... besides yourself and it doesn’t give you any superiority in this argument. There is very easily a debate, backed by tangible evidence that shows Zimmerman has a case for his claims requested. The details these professors examine, that come from the book and film, are extremely hard to refute because they are all pieces of evidence that was used in the case between Martin and Zimmerman. The only outside research that was done was filmed so you can see the evidence with the naked eye, such as when the filmmaker met Trayvon’s REAL girlfriend Diamond.
Only a mind that has been ideologically brainwashed would consider Truth a "useless detail"
@davey red over analysis when talking to people who are not versed in what we do often hurts more then helps.
@@Mageroeth : Does your paramount interest lay in ascertainment of facts, or does it lay elsewhere? There are indeed things other than facts that require attention.
When you say final solution, you sound exactly like Hitler. What could possibly be a final solution? I can imagine based on what I’ve seen in the last several years, since the Trayvon Martin case. That was really the beginning of it. And I know what you mean when you say final solution. So nobody’s going to be surprised.
😂😂😂 Go watch the new documentary made by an actual journalist and Obama voter. By the way….you remember that supposedly he was on the phone with his girlfriend? The prosecutor hid the actual girlfriend and put Trayvons slow half sister on the stand posing as Trayvons girlfriend. Bet you didn’t know that did you.