The Melee GOAT List UNDERRATED These Players
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
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#SmashBros #Melee #mew2king
Always nice to see someone value Chu's legacy, the fact that he had a run in the top 10ish around 2017-2018 was always something I thought was so cool.
It especially it reminds me of modern professional tennis, there's three guys who were and have been up until the most recent times absolutely untouchable basically won everything, then you have the number four named Andy Murray, still right up there right at the top with the other three guys and could beat them on any given day, just ended up somehow with much less top level titles but basically equal number of finals & consistently very high in rankings... Haven't followed competitive melee quite as much, but there seems to be parallels, that many Legends by definition will not be considered such based on rigid criteria
I thinks it’s cool how hard Ibdw defended Mew2king more than everyone else.
it's peaks vs longevity, M2K was never at the number 1 spot for that long but he was top 5 for a super long time
That big house set still haunts him
M2K won majors in 3/4 eras. Literally just not this current modern era. M2K is top 5 all time, period.
@@lewisbirkett4428there was a genuine argument for him being number 1 in 2013. Not an iron clad one but something. Armada was basically retired for most of the year, and he actually had a positive record on Mango, and that’s already the 2 people ranked higher than him. The other gods though he was ranked higher than cause PP had yet to win the Apex’s and m2k was generally stronger than hbox overall (and also was positive on him), and this was early prime 5 gods era so obviously the others wouldn’t have been close tbh. So that all being said you can just straight up say “oh the ranking is lack luster so he’s lower”, kinda like how you can’t do that for leffen either.
Fun fact about M2K: If you count the other smash games, he's won more tournaments than any other player in esports history (yup, esports history, not just smash history). I know this is just a melee list, but if it was top smash players of all time I think M2K be the clear #1.
Also I feel like they should have taken into account how much he contributed to melee's scene, especially in the early days (though I get why they only base it on results and not other stuff like that)
Yup. He pretty much farmed the US for tournaments and just kept winning. Just imagine if he focused solely on Melee like everyone else did.
they took it into account for ken lol
@@NickNick-xv6wv clearly not enough if they think Ken contributed more lool
Top smash players of all time would be a scuffed list
wow, that's actually kinda crazy to think about lmao. So even more than like Traditional fighter veterans playing like every new installment ig? damn talk about dedication.
M2k said on stream today every 100 subs he would play a top player and also that if he gets 2,000 subs he'll enter the SWT. I think if you wanna see him compete you should bring attention to this. You can do whatever you want but I just would love to see him compete again
I like how respectful Ibdw is for the people before him,a lot of people wrote him off for saying he’d Body everyone before him.
He respects his elders
he would body everyone before him but only because of how much everyone before him has pushed the meta. That's why respecting your elders (shoutouts to Chillin) is the melee way
I'm so glad you pointed out the Ken/Armada inconsistency. It's been driving me nuts.
It's not inconsistent though, the ken/m2k relationship is not 1:1 comparable to the armada/mango one. Ken was way more dominant than M2K ever was, while Armada was only slightly more dominant than Mango.
@@abcdefzhij m2k was best in the world for 2 years ken was only best in the world for 3 years (the other 2 years was NA only) and in that 2 year reign before mang0 became best in the world he was just as dominant
@@kennythekid130 M2k was not the best for anywhere close to 2 years, it was more like 6 months. And, very importantly, m2k was also the best during a MUCH worse era than Ken was
@@abcdefzhij what are you talking about he was literally rank 1 2007 and 2008 (2008 was the year he was rank 1 in melee and brawl at the same time) and also how would 2007-2008 be a worse era?
@@kennythekid130 Dude, being ranked #1 for a particular year does not mean he was #1 for the entirety of that year. I remember blur and hugs talked about this on stream a while ago and said that if you actually look at the placings it wasn't really that long that he was on top.
As for why 2008 is a much weaker era, it should be really fucking obvious lol. Brawl came out and the melee competition died.
I love that someone whose so profoundly good at the game has so much respect for the old gen legends. Considering your probably already twice as good as everyone on this list, I think it would be an even split if you just scoffed at everyone there and just called them frauds (I mean that’s probs what leffen would do in your situation), but you did the exact opposite. Really respectable
I feel hax got under ranked as well. Def feel like he should be above Johnny and Sfat as he had higher peaks as well longevity and doing it with 2 characters. But given the controversy, Im not surprised.
Not Sfat but over S2J yeah. Honestly Sfat was underrated too. And tbh I don’t think the controversy has anything to do with it. There were much bigger “errors”, so it’s hard to say Hax was deliberately misplaced
@@tjtribble. I think the argument can be made for Hax>sfat. Sfat has consistently for sure but he never really peaked or innovated as much as hax. The only argument against hax is that he wasnt as consistent as sfat and that was mostly because of his hand pain and learning a different controller. So he went though more hurdles outside of the game. However, hax has longevity ( as seen by 4th at last genesis), higher peaks and also Innovation for both falcon and fox (which is something that i personally value). So i guess it determines what you value but there's def an argument that could be made.
Also def not a shot at sfat, i think sfats consistency is really good but at the top 20 level, you need more than consistency to place that high.
@@Rassmaster SFAT has peaked pretty damn highly but he just doesnt receive the hype some other players get. Has a grand finals appearance at shine 2016 where he beat Mango and Hungrybox. Has mew2king and leffen wins Genesis 3 and Press Start. He has peaked about as high as Hax with both being ranked in the top 10 at certain points. And of course has much more longevity and consistency which isn't Hax's fault but we still should reward SFAT for showing equally high peaks with top level wins and being ever present for a decade every year
Sfat is better than hax all time! No way around it.
Another note. Not to many know is m2k bodied ken around 07ish in marth dittos. Was about when Ken decided to hang the controller up for good.
I find it funny that newer player and doc kids put more respect on older players more than old heads of the community
They did Plup dirty. 1 of 2 God slayers, and a positive record over Leffen should put you higher. Also if they're gonna bump Armada because he retired three years ago, Ken in no way deserves to be as high as he his.
Ya my problem with the list is the inconsistency of the logic. If you have Ken as 4 you HAVE to have Armada as 1. Along with Chu being super underrated and Azen pretty overrated makes this list a bit of a joke imo.
Leffen has more big wins imo. also a longer legacy of being a "god slayer" so to speak (as early as 2015 as opposed to plups 2018).
I really like your take on how to look at all time rankings. A lot of people try to discredit players from older eras completely, but that just defeats the purpose of an all time ranking.
If longetivity is a big reason why Mang0 is over Armada, I don't get why Chu Dat would be placed lower than Zain. This list to me is just conveniently putting Mang0 at #1 in order to pander to his fanbase imho.
@gravy jones the reason would be half the melee community is obsessed with Mango so making them all mad would come with repercussions
could not agree more guys.
100 percent plup should have been over zain
I agree with the take on Chu, Chu should be above Plup and Azen easy imo
Part of the problem is that with panel voting you’re going to have an inconsistent list because people are going to value things differently and you’ll have just some illogical voters in there. I do think this list does a good job of sorting players generally where they should be though so its cool to have it.
i agree. zain is my favorite player and a future goat and i think this list wanted to make sure it held up years from now instead of being more relevant to its own time
Also I gaurentee if mango didn’t get that final shine spike at smash summit 11 in grand finals he wouldn’t have taken number one spot this time (but eventually would)
the list being blind averaging of voter lists with no common sense curation and having blatant contradictions just makes it a very poor quality list. agreed.
I think zain could challenge manga/armada/hbox legacy in the future too. There is so much more melee to be played.
I don’t mean to be mean since it’s just somebody’s opinion at the end of the day but i think the list is bad in so many ways, it’s bad if you value peaks because mango would definitely not be #1 if you value that, but if they valued longevity zain would not be where he is. It just seems so inconsistent .
And also, Ken over mew2king.
You’re making really good points. I saw some people talking zain as high as 4th all time, which is insane. In five years though I could see you and Zain being top 10
Just recency bias, newer viewers probably
I agree with putting Zain low in top 10, but outside of it? He is dominant for more than a year even discounting online. That alone puts him in top 10.
@@GusJenkinsElite toph put him 4th lol
@@BacchusGames Toph is a human, equally capable of recency bias
Armada should’ve been first. #1 in 2011-2012, first half of 2013, 2015-2016, first half of 2017 and wouldve been #1 in 2018 miom rankings if he didn’t retire before the year fully finished. Also was #2 ranked in 2009, 2013, 2017-2018. Never lost to someone outside of top 6 for 8 years. He was also mangos and hbox’s kyrptonite before he retired. Had a winning record vs everyone. Basically was top 2 for 10 years straight as well 2009-2018 Lmaoo literally goat 🐐 shit.
imo it's arguable between armada and mango, but whenever it's arguable the wider community will just give it to mango. if armada and mango literally swapped careers with one another then i believe mango would still be #1 and most people would just value whatever fits around mango's strengths.
@@mvjbass9561 yeah feels biased
@@rockenamigo5345 armada retired and mang0 still getting wins. its even tho
@@mvjbass9561 it's not arguable at all haha that's the problem. Did you read the paragraph above correctly ?
@@oui_chapeau Armada fans saying it's not arguable at all just shows the insane bias lol. Either Armada or Mango is a reasonable pick but it is a close argument. Mango and Armada had equal #1 reigns both having about 4 years. Armada had about 7-8 years as a Top 2 player and Mango has had 9 if you include the past 2 years. Mango has also had a 14 year career as a top 5 player. It's just a case of longevity vs peaks.
I don't see why online shouldn't be counted. Yeah leffen got screwed but Zain deserves full credit for crushing the online era. Being at the top in modern era is miles better than in 2010.
Because there are a lot of top players that don't do as well online or can't do online.
How is azen over chu?
Does anyone else feel like doubles performance should matter for greatest of all time?
Incoming Android top 10 player of all time
SFAT's ranking was such a slap in his face, and I'm not even a huge SFAT fan.
Unfortunately for SFAT he's just kind of been...there. Never a large presence. Never broke into the top, top cut. Never really innovated much like other foxes. Not known for having a unique style like Mang0, Hax, Leffen, Armada, or any other top Fox. And he's always been destroyed by the likes of Leffen, Mango, Armada, M2K, Zain, and many other top players.
He's always been seen as good, but never great.
Chu should totally be higher. That was fuckin robbery. Same thing for plup. Not sure why a ranking about fucking legacy got hit with such fat recency bias.
11:53
He said it best, Hungrybox will never have enough hand pain that it would kill his future play.
You know unless he popsoff too hard like that one time and hurt his hand...
Strange that they would make a list that undervalues longetivity yet puts mang0 at number 1 solely for that reason. I saw this with Toph's list too (which was even more egregious with its pulls for recency). People gotta respect the past in this community more.
Also m2k unironically probably has the best list from what I've seen
Melee backrooms will find whatever reason to rank mango #1 at anything.
I used to think Mang0 wasn't the goat, and even thought of HBox being 2nd below Armada. But if Summit 11 confirmed something in my eyes, is that Mang0 is undoubtfully the goat. He has the longevity, he has the peaks, and he has the stretches of consistency (not always, but still), but on top of all that, he has the Recency too. He's keept up with the meta, he's pushed it, and he's still actively giving all the #1 players a run for their money till this day. There isn't a time in Melee where Mang0 hasn't been in contention for best player in the world at some moment (not since he's been active), having Major wins in every era of the game.
And I'm not even a huge Mang0 fan
Mango won before during and after Armada. That's why hes the goat
hella hard agree, don't know who made the list but recency bias is over the top
To me, conquering all competition is the ultimate victory in a sport. Being the best in the world for two years is more impressive to me than being top ten for ten years. It really deoends on the how you interpret "greatest of all time"
I love zain but for all time greats plup and chu are just overall far greater
Kinda disappointed panda did this
5:16 thx for this take
Cody is based Enuff said
I agree especially on an all time list
no i like peaks bias cuz peaks at #1, dominance, mean influence spotlight not found at #2-10
Mang0 is Tom Brady
The extent to which Ken had a more dominant peak than Mew2King far exceeds the extent to which Armada had a more dominant peak than Mango. So, I don't think there's a problem with the list
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Mew2king is a legend. I feel bad that we collectively forgot the false allegations brought on him that made him have to air personal medical information is fucked up. Maybe we put it behind us, because how messed up it all was, but it was messed up from the start.
The thing about greatest of all time list for me in order to qualify you have to be the greatest at one point in time. Plup plays great , but isn’t a great player
yeah i was pretty surprised to see new school players so high up (ibdw & zain) this high. plus regardless of Ken’s Legacy, he should no longer make top 5 all time lists. he can probably stay in top 10 but regardless, the gods and god slayers are way better
Ken is just a respect top 5 because of what he had to show people about melee. To be consistent if we only consider legacy, I would agree. But the sheer dominance of his era made a statement, and it made other competitors burn for that kind of dominance themselves.
Thanks for the video ibbw
Great video. Agreed bigtime
Great video
I feel like zain be getting overrated because people have a hard time not thinking hes still gonna be dominant in 5 years even though we cant predict the future and this is a top 100 list from 2023 lol
I think being the best in the world for a good stretch puts you in a different and higher category. Yes being near the top for a long time is impressive but it also means you have been playing for a long time and were never the best in The world.
Mangos the goat 🐐
Nah
Yes Ken>m2k means you cant think mang0 is better then Armada it doesnt make senseeeeeeeeeeeee
Im so mad about mang0 over Armanda. He was the worst god for so many years in a row ( besides retired pp ) and only resurfaced because armada retired, leffen couldn't play in America and Hbox couldn't play online.
Of course he is good, but mark my words in a year he will not be considered in conversation for number 1, number 3 perhaps.
Mango was literally only the worst God in 2018. Keep johning for Hbox when he literally didn't practice melee and could have maintained his #1 spot. Stay mad that Mango will be the goat lol.
Spoken like someone that doesn't watch tournaments.
What about 2007-2012? Oh wait u didnt watch during that time period so u discredit it. 😂😂😂
Literally just reverse 8-11
toph put zain #4
lmao
I HATE m2k ngl, but ken being above him is just ridiculous
Why hate m2k
How do u hate the king of the mews?
Mango number 1?😂😂😂😂 it was so Easy for armada to beat him all the Time
Hungrybox probably only person who can overtake mango, but if melee lives on I totally think Zain could overtake it
Being the best player on the planet is literally 5 times harder than being top 5 so I don’t mind Zain at 9 also I’m super biased
horrible take
I've always said that I think m2k is the goat and its cuz m2k has always been a contenter. He's always been up there and he's always been in the running for first no matter what tournament.
No way M2K is the goat. Top #5 all time is an amazing spot for him. M2K beat everyone at their peaks. Ken, mango, hbox, armada, was the last god to lose to leffen. M2K spot may not be #1 but his spot ain't going anywhere
Saying that chu should be placed over Plup KILLED me … 🚩🚩🚩
IDK man, I agree with the Chu > Plup > Zain, but I can't get behind M2K over Ken. Ken has significantly more major wins. M2K's run of being the best player in the world was during the game's weakest era(right after brawl release).
By that argument, ken was the best player in the world in melee’s (2nd?) weakest era.
Being at the top gets harder every year. For m2k to stay at the absolute top despite all the competition and innovations is crazy.
M2k was also the best at brawl at the same time he was best in melee which is funny.
M2K in the weakest era? He was competing and staying at the top in both Melee and Brawl. He managed to stay at least top 3 against a multitude of other top competitors for several years. Ken was dominant in the early stages of the game which is incredibly impressive, but the meta evolved and the game became more complex. I don't know how you can say that era was the weakest.
Being top 6ish for over 10 years on top of winning a super major in a more competitive era eclipses everything Ken did and it’s not close.
M2k reign is overrated and and zain definetley is top 10.
Yeah he is overrated, just top 5/4 world since 2007, top 6 in 2006 and top 1 during 2007 and 2008
Nothing really special rofl
@@strylon2277 is hard for fans to deal with it but.....I speak of his reign, is overrated, because he loose a lot. He was the most consistent player in 07 but he lost to chudat, PC, Mango, KDJ, Azen.
@@ivannunez8738 And ? Mang0 lost to like, 30 players more than M2K
It's doesn't change the fact that M2K is clearly top 4
@@strylon2277 when he was number 1 ?. Nahh
@@ivannunez8738 he was number 1 after ken an 2007-2008 after that mango took the number 1 spot
did chu dirty for sure, based takes