0:57 The Problem (Coffee Professionals can't stand Home Enthusiasts) 29:54 Caveat: Lance's experience is mainly about the US *The Gap of Knowledge* 1:44 Why do home enthusiasts know more than baristas OR Hobby vs Work ++ 5:54 Luxury Cafes ++ 7:59 Lance's Personal Experience (as a Barista) ++ 14:04 Clash between pros and enthusiasts in all industries ++ 28:34 Work vs Passion *Nerding out with your Barista* 10:07 Nerding out with the barista (and why it's unlikely) ++ 32:19 Annoyance at questions about water temperature and relevancy to baristas ++ 38:38 Feeling out if the barista is willing to talk about coffee (let them know softly you know) ++ 42:20 The BIGGEST NONO ++ 44:25 The give and take of not making people feel stupid *Getting into the Industry* 47:25 Advice to an enthusiast getting into the industry ++ 49:25 Hitch your wagon to the right horse ++ 50:22 Lance's Personal Experience Part Three (Working in the Industry) ++ 52:20 Australia's Pay and Minimum Wages ++ 1:01:06 Cafes in rural areas ++ 1:02:09 Shops paying living wage *Trends and Influences from Both Sides* 10:50 Trends coming from baristas influencing the home enthusiast community ++ 11:06 Higher extraction (home enthusiasts) vs lower extraction (coffee professionals) 12:33 Home enthusiasts influence on the professional coffee world ++ 35:39 Hobby side influence on manufacturers (PID controller, recent shaking vids) 13:41 Coffee professionals refining techniques from the home enthusiast sphere 15:50 Home enthusiast community rubbing off wrong on the coffee professional community 16:00 Lance's Personal Experience Part Two *The Chasm of Efficiency and Practicality* 22:16 Difference between Home and in Shops ++ 23:37 Recognizing the chasm and why it's there (efficiency, reproducibility, feasability) ++ 33:17 Expectation of similar/better coffee at a cafe vs at home (one size cannot fit all) ++ 46:28 Frustration of the home enthusiast *Home Enthusiast Level Specialty Cafes* 22:40 Mention of Endorffeine (specialty specialty cafe) ++ 54:15 Coffee Shops with Home Enthusiast Level Passion ++ 55:57 Rosslyn *Other Talking Points* 28:11 An art rather than work 30:53 Hiring Recommendations for a Cafe 37:58 COVID and getting into coffee 52:50 How to figure out what to drink in a new city 56:27 Batch Brew and Thermos Taste 57:06 Favorite commercial grinder 57:55 Small talk on the Coffee Industry right now 58:39 Japan and Coffee 59:48 Cafes serving per their Taste Notes 1:00:27 Criticism on beans served 1:03:37 Food Truck 1:03:57 Extra tipping for ordering pourover at a busy period
Not true at all. My coffee bar weighs and times, uses the Autocomb (yet to play with our shaker) & adjust the grinder through the day. I chatted with a guy who has a manual at home & he enjoyed his drink.
@@ryanduksacompare your example with almost every other cafe. Do you think your coffee bar is the norm around the world where other coffee home enthusiasts live?
@@matijamandic8774Well, timing is done at pretty much every decent coffee shop out there. If it strays too much from the recipe, grind adjustments are made during the shift. Weighing depends on the gear. Time-based grinder workflows need regular control of the output, sure. But GbW grinders are getting more common and solve this as well. So I wouldn’t say ryan is cherry-picking an overly rare example.
@@RegrinderAlertyou mentioned the Autocomb - I'm talking about the autocomb primarily. I agree with you about the other aspects. Its the autocomb i would class as a tiny detail.
I'm somewhere in between. I don't do any wdt but I do single dose using a dosing cup, instead of grinding directly into my portafilter and I use a lock on dosing ring. Tap the sides of the portafilter that I need more coffee to fall down on and then I tap the whole thing on the counter to settle before I take the collar off and then tamp. I never really have to stockfleth even and my grinder rarely ever produces more than one clump (niche zero). I often do not use a scale to pull my shot but I use a cup with a Mark and I make sure I cover the entire Mark , bypassing my volumetric buttons and always pulling shots manually, so I'm not compromising by more than a gram or 2 if I have excessive crema. If I get a new coffee I'm a little more meticulous about weighing my shots until I get used to it. I've only ever had a puck defect a couple times and the only times I've ever had a gusher were entirely My Fault by grinding to course or when my friend was over playing with my setup and I forgot he was messing with the grinder and it was set Nearly to moka pot coarseness and I was sleepy So my brain wasn't figuring out why the portafilter was so much more full than normal until after I pulled the shot 😂
Enthusiasts have the luxury to dabble in the obscure areas of coffee, baristas have a duty to please as many customers as possible with the most efficient formulas available.
Yes! I am both a professional barista and a coffee enthusiast but broke AF. Usually I spend my extra cash on new coffees instead of new coffee equipment
Same, but i buy at least once a year 🤣, including manual equipments sometimes... But last time i bought only coffee. So at work espresso based, at home, only manual(aeropress, v60 etc)
I really like your comment about how home enthusiasts are trying to dial in limited amounts of coffee with limitless tools and techniques (basically) while baristas have unlimited coffee to optimize with the tools and techniques at hand: efficiency vs. taste and consistency.That's a really great frame to put this topic into. Really clicked for me!
Here’s where I'm at. I started off with a £180 casabrews 5700 essentials machine with a cheap £80 melitta grinder. 51mm portafilter. Casabrews didn't even have a bottomless portafilter until now. Stress after stress of trying to get barista quality coffee with my cheap setup caused me to need to upgrade. My weeks of youtube research and watching video after video I came to the conclusion that I needed to upgrade. I had too much knowledge to get good coffee out of my cheap setup. I finally upgraded to what I consider to be my end game setup (until my disposable income improves lol). I now have a gaggia classic with a pid, 9 bar, dimmer to change pressure, and better milk steaming (it's so hard to get good milk texture). Paired with a DF64 grinder. Now I'm timing shots and getting coffee that I see on RUclips. However I'm still toying with how far I want to go down this rabbit hole. Ain't no way I'm buying expensive 200 dollar baskets and gear. I just want high quality and consistency and the ability to taste the notes advertised. Sorry for the long story I'm just not sure how far I want to go and what opportunities that may arise from it.
Professional woodworker here: i kinda know traditional joints, how to orient the grain etc, but its not making money. What does make money? CNC made furniture from particle board. Try to get that across to a home enthusiast with fancy handtool =) I guess its the same for a lot of things. Profession needs to make ends meet on a tight scedule.
I've home brewed beer for well over a decade and I'm part owner in a local brewery. Master Brewers obviously make more than your average barista, but the same dynamics play. Many master Brewers never home brewed and lack the same level of passion as hobbiests. There's lots of average breweries that don't stand out, there's a tiny handful of breweries that beer enthusiasts notice, and I think all of the ones I can think of were started by passionate home brewers.
I find it very sad when something becoming a job takes the fun out of it. I am a scientist at a university, and if I ever lost my childlike enthusiasm, I would lose my network, and soon after everything else. That said, I think it’s not necessary to connect with employees over coffee science specifically, but to connect over SOMETHING generally. My PhD student Sake Jan Velthuis has eloquently published on this under the term “commercial freindship.”
Thanks to Lance for this video. I have been a coffee lover and now I have begun geeking out on coffee. The reason. I find myself in Madagascar. It turns out they have some of the best arabica in the world grown right here. It is a wonder. My wife and I are working on bringing this coffee to the world to share it with others but more importantly to help the farmers and people of Madagascar in our own small way. It is fantastic and naturally low in caffeine. The Robista in Madagascar is the commodity but it is actually good. It is incredibly strong. We want to promote an Espresso Blend that is 70/30 arabica/robusta but PURE MADAGASCAR. How this would translate to a cafe I have no idea but I am hoping it will catch on.
I worked at a roaster 12 years ago and knew nothing about coffee. My boss gave me a range to hit on the Ag Spec and that's what I aimed for. Passion wasn't the job, operating the machine, doing changeovers quickly, and supervising the packers was.
Nice job. Very balanced and thoughtful take on this subject. I agree that cafes for the most part produce for the masses and focus on efficiency. Important to have more reasonable expectations of tasting cafe brews especially in milk/alternative milk based drinks.
Many people do not know or do not want to recognize the effort and work of other people. I find it deplorable to criticize, mistreat or expose the barista for not serving him in the way he would have liked. I am a coffee enthusiast, a home barista, and it would never occur to me to disrespect anyone serving me in a coffee shop in any way. For me it is a matter of simply being a good human being.
I think it would be a cool contest to pit professional baristas who only ever work with the recipes and machines at their businesses against home brewers who have big collections of gear but haven't pulled thousands of shots. Gotta integrate a time factor.
Totally agree with your comment about US vs non-US baristas. We lived in Korea and close to our apartment was a cafe' that also roasted their beans. You could get cups of various beans that were roasted and aged correctly. Espresso or pour-over. They loved what they did and it was something they would experiment. In the US, time = money. In the US it is about saving time and producing a consistent product and getting maximum turnover of customers.
That’s the norm pretty much everywhere, not an US issue. Similarly you will find great specialty coffee shops that put more love into their craft in every country.
I go work remotely at loyal coffee sometimes. Today I bought their washed Rwanda and the barista gave me two bags of it for free that were a bit too far past roast to sell. Great unexpected experience.
I appreciate the insight! I’ve often times gone to cafes expecting amazing pour overs and getting let down and frustrated but it totally makes sense that they are going for efficiency
After years of being my own home barista, I can not even imagine staring at the masses as they anxiously wait for their drinks. If the process seems thought out and the experience is enjoyable, I'm pleased. When I visited Bentonville, AR and the surrounding area I made it a point to hit all the Onyx locations and I was very impressed with all the locations. Watching the roasters at Onyx....my kids just went and sat down and told my wife..."I guess we lost Dad for awhile"
I like a lot that you mentioned that matter I am a home barista who became a professional and now I am a home barista back again I can tell you too that the most part of pro baristas don't know what they are doing They can't change grind size, they don't even know about yield ratios They only know to "photocopy" a shot P.s. Off course the small percentage like you Lance, that you care about coffee science and you are already a teacher, it's not the average pro barista, I hope that you know what I mean P.s.2 Love you always ♥️
I’ll be honest this topic has been raging inside me for a long time so first off thanks for sharing. Gonna do a big long comment that probably no one cares about but need to get it off my chest 😅 I’m biased in favor of being a past and now partially coffee professional so first I will critique myself, then the coffee pros then the home enthusiasts. This vid makes me feel super heard already because I’m now kind of half and half of both categories. So maybe this comment is unnecessary but want to add to the convo. Although I’m glad about it now, I didn’t make it as a coffee pro for a career for different reasons. One is that it seemed like it was more so friendship or relationship closeness that brought promotion more than anything. Or just other work or professional skills that had nothing to do with coffee. I had none of those. Since I’m neither in the industry nor have the resources of most home enthusiasts it’s a struggle to stay current but thanks to this channel, my continued passion and other things, I do. A lot of the coffee pros or baristas I knew in my local area cared more about the name of the shop or company you’ve worked for as status. It was never a “cool ur a coffee person too let’s talk about coffee” vibe with them, and always a “who have you worked for or who do you know” type convos. I get it bc coffee is a v social thing. I think it’s safe to say if you’ve watched every one of lances videos on RUclips, or even just a few, or even just a few daddy hof videos, you might already know more than most baristas if not the actual shop owners as well 😅 Now the part I’ve been waiting for as a biased ex and current semi coffee pro 😅…. I think home enthusiasts know more about gear than maybe even some high level coffee pros and that’s where they really shine. This is just my personal experience so don’t kill me…but in my experience home enthusiasts may have more coffee “science” knowledge but even when they do if they do it can tend to be very spotty and random facts mixed in with myths and mixed in with prioritizing things that aren’t super important. There’s less of a cohesive concept of coffee science. Just to level the playing field I’m honestly not saying home baristas vs industry ppl are better or worse just different I really do think it all evens out in the end! I will say that many industry baristas obviously have more experience due to making countless coffees, so a lot of times they can make “better” tasting coffee with less gear and science knowledge than many home enthusiasts. I think this is also due to pallet development, the industry barista to me tends to have better pallet development even if they don’t like their job! Again not to bash (maybe I’m bashing since I feel I need to say that I’m not bashing 😅) but I’ve been served some very weird tasting coffees from home enthusiasts who thought the coffee was wonderful. Yes everyone defines “good” and “better” as different but in my opinion home pallet development I’ve experienced has been wonky in my own very personal experience. I spent several years in the coffee industry before changing to something entirely different that I’ve been happy with and has lent more growth to me. Though it is the bottom of the barrel or most baseline gear to most home enthusiasts I’ve finally been able to afford some home equipment I’ve always wanted! I now identify as both due to my industry past history and very recent small mock business operations of selling my own coffee and roasting/selling my own beans, as well as doing everything from home including nerding out and experimenting! My Best advice for industry baristas/ppl, continue to build foundation of science and kindly share your knowledge and experiences with home enthusiasts. My best advice for home enthusiasts, make pallet development the priority, make it your goal to brew something incredible by relying on pallet instead of gear or recipes or numbers etc. Connect, hang out, and learn from and with each other! All love, Cave and Cog out ❤️🤘🏼☕️
Coming from Europe, I’m culturally shocked by this video. I feel like my local specialty coffee shops here either roast their own coffee or import fancy beans from all around the world. They give me advices on brewing water, ratio/temperature or resting time. Of course not talking about regular coffee shops that just make the world go by the day. But I would not think to go to a specialty shop that does not “nerd out” a bit at least since I also go there for their advices. I’ve read in the comments the theory of tipping vs no-tipping culture. Often here the owner who is passionated and not depend on tips is behind the bar as well. So maybe the difference is there. Shops here are also less busy and more laid back. They have time to do pour overs, make you smell the grounds, etc. The minimum salary and lessened economical pressure might play a big role. Nonetheless very insightful video, good reminder to keep some stuff for me and not over sharing in some circumstances :)
this is the first time I have heard Lance talk about Endorffeine in Los Angeles. I love to hear that he thinks highly of Jack. I have only been able to go twice, but I am looking forward to going again!
As a former service worker, barista and now salesperson in a roastery i really think you're on point. i actually do the nerding out and i do know that my coffee at home is probably better than whatever i can get in a random cafe. But that said, ive never had a colleague who was interested in that side of coffee and im fully aware that most professionals have a stressful job and have neither the time nor the interest in discussing things like the astringency of the coffee they serve. Be nice to your baristas/food service workes, tip them and don't be the vuy who complains about coffee being marginally worse than it could potentially have been.
I would not just assume that thy like or love their job. It could just be a job to them and thy don’t care. I had a chemistry teacher in college and I approached after class with a bunch of questions. She stopped me mid sentence and told me “this is just my job i don’t actually like chemistry”. That stuck with me my whole life. Just remember it’s just a paycheck to people working a job.
This resonates. Normal cafes, even the "specialty" kind, aren't for coffee enthusiasts and that's NOT an indictment on baristas. It seems that most orders I see at shops are big milk drinks. It's not that complicated to make great black coffee either on batch, simple pourovers, fast flow allongés, etc, but cafes are simply not set-up for it and they don't really need to be given the reality of the business. I would go to a "nerd's" coffee bar but that's going to be a couple shops out of hundreds in a big city.
Great filter coffee in a cafe setting is super hard, way harder than decently dialing-in espresso. Pourover by hand is not a great option (time -> cost, little consistency) and won’t taste great almost anywhere. Batch brew is tricky as well. Can’t make big batches because they get stale too quickly -> max 2/3 cups per batch. The best systems I have seen are racks of multiple automated brew heads that make a single brew each - on demand. Or something like the GroundControl.
That’s really not true. I can think of quite a few cafes in my city that do pour overs etc and are definitely high enough quality for enthusiasts. The baristas themselves are enthusiasts (myself included). Maybe that’s not the case where you live.
It's funny, I still haven't been to a Cafe. My wife wanted an Latte at home and now I'm deep into the rabbit hole. Dont even drink coffee but in that i have no idea about taste. Thats what I really need to learn now.
I asked a Barista once what dose they used ( genuinely interested as was my favourite shop at the time ( Rosslyn if you're interested ) ) to which I got the snotty reply, "your machine won't have the same pressure as ours".....a) irrelevant and b) I had a Linea Mini, so even more irrelevant and obviously no way he could know my home setup. All of which I wouldn't have been bothered about, just the stroppy dismissive attitude that was a letdown.
I still don’t understand why this doesn’t translate to other jobs. I can nerd out with mechanics over car stuff all day and the same things you mentioned apply to them. Maybe the difference is the lower barrier for entry for baristas means that you get people working the job but not necessarily being good at it or passionate about it.
I think it often does. It also may have to do with your feelings about burnout and relative value for work. If you work in an industry and feel like the industry is taking care of you, I bet you are far more likely to stay put and develop that love for the job. If you feel like you can barely afford your bills, are treated like garbage, and your only chance to grow financially is to move on, then that job will always feel like a stepping stone to the next thing. It is interesting that Lance is someone that had other aspirations and fell in to coffee. He was in graduate school and using his job to help pay his bills. But he had specialty coffee and changed directions. I assume in the US usually the opposite is true. Someone takes a barista job and uses tips to get "beer money" if maybe parents are helping for school or they are trying to afford to pay for their school (not easy when bachelor's degrees often come with 6 figure costs over 4 years nowadays). And they are looking forward to leveraging that degree to improve their finances. If a barista job cannot compete with the opportunities after graduation, then the barista job will always feel like a step towards that opportunity rather than a goal. And then those baristas get that "What will you do next" thing Lance mentions. No wonder so few want to stay in the industry. Any job can convince you to nerd out. I have gotten a reputation at my job for being the Excel and NetSuite expert because I like to find ways to do things better and faster. I like learning how to use the tools of NetSuite or learn new functions in Excel to help me process and access data faster for people on my team. It is sort of gratifying having a CFO or controller call me the expert on software that they've used for decades because I am happy to learn to use advanced functions that scare so many other accountants away (aka anything they didn't have to use in school or their first year on the job). But I feel like honing my craft gives me room for growth, I feel like I get good value for my time from work, feel appreciated by those around me, and it lets me enjoy getting better. I assume that if I made say 10-15/hr+tips, had to deal with people insulting me, managers asking me to do too much, and generally just felt exhausted all while my bills piled up... the last thing I'd want to do is go home and find the latest video from James Hoffman or Lance.
@@Fidasaindinteresting take as well. I love coffee and I love cars. The reason why I brought up the mechanic example is because I’m a mechanical engineer that worked a lot on cars but I also hung around workshops and garages with “low level” technicians that fit the bill for what you and Lance describe. However I’ve never met a technician that wouldn’t give me very long talks about what they think I should do about my car problems or what they think of the latest tech in the automotive world or which German car do they hate most…etc. I learned a lot from them and they always came across as willing to “nerd out”. Car shops are not the nicest place to work, I would argue a barista has it easier, but what do I know…
@@DigitalicaEG Yeah I think you're right that people "stumble" into being a barista differently compared to being a mechanic due to the economics of the two jobs. I think that another dynamic is that people who choose to stay baristas even when other options come up could do so because they like the hospitality/service aspect more so than the coffee. That other side is just as much a part of the job if not bigger.
Here in Tokyo, so many specialty and third wave coffee shops have the bar far away from customers. Sometimes, no bar at all. So it's hard to strike up a conversation with them. Usually, I hit up small one -man shops cuz I'm there to share and listen to stories etc etc.
Makes total sense. BMW car dealers cannot stand the BMW enthusiasts crowd. The enthusiasts know so much about old cars etc etc and come in and will never buy a new car. The car dealers must sell cars or baby ain’t got shoes. So it is the same with home anything.
If Atlanta knows about good coffee then they’re the perfect market for an expensive exclusive reservation only coffee place. Favorite past time out there is dressing up and waiting. lol
I'll speculate on the US vs non-US barista outlook! Tipping culture. US baristas need to make their average customer as happy as possible to get a good tip. That means being the right amount of chatty or not, and making coffee the way the customer wants it above all. If you don't need to rely on tips to make a living, you can focus on making the coffee the best way you think it can be, and you have more freedom to tell a customer "no" when they ask for something that would mess with your workflow.
Price is imo a big factor in this tension. Where I live (Belgium) a speciality V60 costs between €4,50 and €6,00, a logical price taking into account labour time, cost of materials etc. But when I (or another coffee afficionado) order a €5 drink, I expect to experience something special, something I can't make myself, because well, €5 is a lot of money for a drink. It's often not fair towards the barista, but the owner should, I think, be mindful of this: don't offer the fancy pour overs if you don't have the barista training to back it up. While of course a client should be aware that not every coffee can be a masterpiece.
Wish I could just find a good espresso. So much of what I see/get is a crappy pull that apparently tastes fine in the 90% of milk/sugar/flavored drinks 90% of the customers order.😢 Pulls that run like water and baristas that are climbing on top of a tamper because the grind is so course. Timed pulls just based on time and nothing else..... I'm not a coffee geek but I know of 5 coffee cafes within 10 minute drive and I couldn't get a passable espresso at any of them.🤷🏼♂️
There is no point in professional baristas vs. home baristas. Manufacturers (also professionals) is another story. See the new Linea Mini. 2024 and they add a shot timer and still embarrass themselves by mocking a flow control with a digital switch.
Imo in other countries the third wave coffee culture isn't as strong, I'm sure there's not even a huge 2nd wave culture. Most people drink instant coffee/some super dark roast filter and flood it with cream and sugar and go about their day, so if there's gonna be a cafe the demographic who flocks to it/applies are primarily gonna be coffee nerds. just my 2 cents
it's kind of weird because you talk about if barrista's are brewing at home it's probably a with something cheap. I'm a professional chef; and I think the way I'm able to enjoy cooking at home is to try to make it feel luxurious; with a higher end knife, cutting board, and frying pan than I would use at work.
to have a high end experience at home, the cost for a home barista is much higher. 200-300 for each item: knife, Pan, cutting, board has you with very nice quality items that have a lifetime of use. granted eventually more knives, pans, cool devices( sous vide,etc) will add up, but cost of entry before it feels high end is much less. for 750-1000 you are barely breaking into espresso machines... and you still need a grinder
Go compare a hobbyist that keeps high end coral reef tanks, then compare them to the Phd that run the day to day at huge public aquariums...worlds and worlds of difference...the hobbyist have revolutionized the understanding we have of propagating corals and saltwater fish...
Papa Hoffman said generally coffee shops are designed to make good espresso but home enthusiasts are more able to make great espresso for reasons you mention.
Where did you get that 94% specialty coffee statistic? I have tried looking for a similar statistic before and found everywhere includes places like Starbucks and McDonald's in specialty coffee 😂😢 so never found anything useful
Hi Lance, I love the new format - but as a podcast. My podcast app does not see any new episodes since 07 (2024/01/14) and even with RUclips Premium which I have I cannot download this video to listen to it out and about. The other videos in the channel I can download. Is this something you influence or a glitch? Would love to hear you again on the go!
The enthusiast not understanding the professional. Wow, yes. I get it on both ends. I get frustrated in gaming about tech and software and networking issues with a new game and part of just wants to ask "Why not pay AWS more at launch?!" but the reality is it is far more complex and there may be many more issues driving it. I am an accountant. Everyone assuming I do taxes, people not understanding how to allocate overhead per unit, people not understanding "write it off", etc. Those amuse and annoy me. People being bad at using data and logic for financial decision making annoys me. I assume coffee professionals are the same. They either don't have the capacity to do the same workflow we do. Or they have expensive equipment to automate the workflow (similar to how I use an ERP or CRM at work and constantly grow my knowledge of Excel to be able to analyze data faster and more efficiently when working with our finance guy on revenue reporting). I made the mistake of letting my hobby become my job before and will never do it again. I am a home roaster and occasionally take on a few customers (enough to cover the depreciation ony my roaster is my goal). But I will avoid it ever becoming my full time thing. I assume baristas are the same. Even if they are enthusiasts before starting, it probably becomes hard to maintain that interest after a long day of work. Especially if they aren't being paid well enough for their work. I doubt they really want to spend free time after work to hone their craft when they are living paycheck to paycheck. I know I rarely cared about getting better at Excel when I was a revenue cycle manager working less than full time for fairly low hourly pay. I hit a certain level of skill to do my job good enough and that was that. But now that I am making more and still have plenty of room to grow? You'd better believe I am trying to improve my knowledge of my ERP or Excel or get my CPA to hopefully eventually land a manager or senior manager/director title. But I'm not marketing my roasting and hoping to make it a full time job. Because I am happy with it being a hobby. I also am thrilled to support local roasteries because I better appreciate the skill of roasting specialty coffee. Not just because it saves me some time and my budget can afford it. But because I can taste, smell, and look at their beans and have more of an idea what to strive for at home (and there are a couple places that still beat the crap out of my beans and I love when I can make it to their shops and buy a few bags). If I was roasting full time, I doubt I'd be as interested in learning how to make espresso, or brew better pour over. I'd be too darned focused on roasting and probably cupping and not really have the time or mental energy for those skills.
Interested in the observation that there seems to be more coffee enthusiasts baristas in European countries. Would anyone care to share why they think that might be the case?
Yes but I paid about 1200 per month for health insurance, 1000 per month in rent, food is insanely expensive in the states, cars are necessary so gasoline, car insurance, etc. Phone bills, utilities, etc.
I see. I have luckily health insurance in salary taxes accounted. What you wrote about insurance and rent is like two months of full time job per month in US. Plus those other things. Thank you for your response.@@LanceHedrickUnfiltered And I am sorry to bother you with those unrelevant topics to the video.
Not really I’d say. Roasting is hard. There is only a handful of roasters around the world (!) that do a consistently great job. You need immense talent or many years of experience until you’ll get even close. Also you’d probably want a small batch roaster - but still bigger than a sample roaster - for reasons of consistency. Therefore probably requiring a high consumption or friends you are sharing your roasts with. The biggest issue will be how hard it is to get your hand on great green coffee. All your time is wasted the moment you have only access to okay greens.
I like going to a Cafe, as long as they are serios about good coffee (They own an EK 43). A lot of times the coffee is pretty good and some times it isn't but it is okay. For took it a long time to reach the level at home, witch my favorite Cafe delivers for hundrets of customers each day. Now i am at a Point i could say the coffee tasts a bit better at home, but it was a long way. I live in germany and i think this is one of the countries with the worst coffee culture you can find and so is it very hard to find places which offer good or even accepteble coffee. But last month i was at vacation in Taiwan and the coffee culture there was gread, at least every poor over was gread and not all of the cafes did use an EK43 a lot of them used griders witch looked like out of your cheap grinder series, but the results were inspiering for me, so i started doing poor over now. Another thing i want to say is, that a lot of good coffee i had was grided before by a Mythos grinder, so my assisoation is gread coffee when i see a Mythos. And i bought a Eureka Atom 75 cause it can fit the Mythos burrs, so its like a budget Mythos, to have the nice coffee at home too, so it hurts every time you say you dont like the Mythos 😅
Best comparison is cooking. A home cook can outperform a chef for one dinner. But the chef will bring their game day in day out for dozens and dozens of dishes.
I'm so tired of baristas that dont take pride in their job. Burnt milk, terrible espresso shots and one dump pours on "pourover". I leave feeling ripped off most visits to new cafes. These are not "professionals" in my opinion
people do it at bars all the time. much higher labor and much lower margin at cafes. But swing by sometime when i'm doing a shift! I'll make sure to have a nice wad of spit in your cup ;)_
0:57 The Problem (Coffee Professionals can't stand Home Enthusiasts)
29:54 Caveat: Lance's experience is mainly about the US
*The Gap of Knowledge*
1:44 Why do home enthusiasts know more than baristas OR Hobby vs Work
++ 5:54 Luxury Cafes
++ 7:59 Lance's Personal Experience (as a Barista)
++ 14:04 Clash between pros and enthusiasts in all industries
++ 28:34 Work vs Passion
*Nerding out with your Barista*
10:07 Nerding out with the barista (and why it's unlikely)
++ 32:19 Annoyance at questions about water temperature and relevancy to baristas
++ 38:38 Feeling out if the barista is willing to talk about coffee (let them know softly you know)
++ 42:20 The BIGGEST NONO
++ 44:25 The give and take of not making people feel stupid
*Getting into the Industry*
47:25 Advice to an enthusiast getting into the industry
++ 49:25 Hitch your wagon to the right horse
++ 50:22 Lance's Personal Experience Part Three (Working in the Industry)
++ 52:20 Australia's Pay and Minimum Wages
++ 1:01:06 Cafes in rural areas
++ 1:02:09 Shops paying living wage
*Trends and Influences from Both Sides*
10:50 Trends coming from baristas influencing the home enthusiast community
++ 11:06 Higher extraction (home enthusiasts) vs lower extraction (coffee professionals)
12:33 Home enthusiasts influence on the professional coffee world
++ 35:39 Hobby side influence on manufacturers (PID controller, recent shaking vids)
13:41 Coffee professionals refining techniques from the home enthusiast sphere
15:50 Home enthusiast community rubbing off wrong on the coffee professional community
16:00 Lance's Personal Experience Part Two
*The Chasm of Efficiency and Practicality*
22:16 Difference between Home and in Shops
++ 23:37 Recognizing the chasm and why it's there (efficiency, reproducibility, feasability)
++ 33:17 Expectation of similar/better coffee at a cafe vs at home (one size cannot fit all)
++ 46:28 Frustration of the home enthusiast
*Home Enthusiast Level Specialty Cafes*
22:40 Mention of Endorffeine (specialty specialty cafe)
++ 54:15 Coffee Shops with Home Enthusiast Level Passion
++ 55:57 Rosslyn
*Other Talking Points*
28:11 An art rather than work
30:53 Hiring Recommendations for a Cafe
37:58 COVID and getting into coffee
52:50 How to figure out what to drink in a new city
56:27 Batch Brew and Thermos Taste
57:06 Favorite commercial grinder
57:55 Small talk on the Coffee Industry right now
58:39 Japan and Coffee
59:48 Cafes serving per their Taste Notes
1:00:27 Criticism on beans served
1:03:37 Food Truck
1:03:57 Extra tipping for ordering pourover at a busy period
YT comment of the month for sure. Congrats
Wow. What a star, thanks so much
Coffee shops prioritise speed (or they should) and home enthusiasts obsess over the tiny details because it’s their passion.
Not true at all. My coffee bar weighs and times, uses the Autocomb (yet to play with our shaker) & adjust the grinder through the day. I chatted with a guy who has a manual at home & he enjoyed his drink.
@@ryanduksacompare your example with almost every other cafe. Do you think your coffee bar is the norm around the world where other coffee home enthusiasts live?
@@matijamandic8774Well, timing is done at pretty much every decent coffee shop out there. If it strays too much from the recipe, grind adjustments are made during the shift.
Weighing depends on the gear. Time-based grinder workflows need regular control of the output, sure. But GbW grinders are getting more common and solve this as well.
So I wouldn’t say ryan is cherry-picking an overly rare example.
@@RegrinderAlertyou mentioned the Autocomb - I'm talking about the autocomb primarily. I agree with you about the other aspects.
Its the autocomb i would class as a tiny detail.
I'm somewhere in between. I don't do any wdt but I do single dose using a dosing cup, instead of grinding directly into my portafilter and I use a lock on dosing ring. Tap the sides of the portafilter that I need more coffee to fall down on and then I tap the whole thing on the counter to settle before I take the collar off and then tamp. I never really have to stockfleth even and my grinder rarely ever produces more than one clump (niche zero). I often do not use a scale to pull my shot but I use a cup with a Mark and I make sure I cover the entire Mark , bypassing my volumetric buttons and always pulling shots manually, so I'm not compromising by more than a gram or 2 if I have excessive crema. If I get a new coffee I'm a little more meticulous about weighing my shots until I get used to it.
I've only ever had a puck defect a couple times and the only times I've ever had a gusher were entirely My Fault by grinding to course or when my friend was over playing with my setup and I forgot he was messing with the grinder and it was set Nearly to moka pot coarseness and I was sleepy So my brain wasn't figuring out why the portafilter was so much more full than normal until after I pulled the shot 😂
Enthusiasts have the luxury to dabble in the obscure areas of coffee, baristas have a duty to please as many customers as possible with the most efficient formulas available.
Yes! I am both a professional barista and a coffee enthusiast but broke AF. Usually I spend my extra cash on new coffees instead of new coffee equipment
same!
I think if you have the equipment at work it’s probably worth just saving your money on equipment
Same, but i buy at least once a year 🤣, including manual equipments sometimes... But last time i bought only coffee.
So at work espresso based, at home, only manual(aeropress, v60 etc)
@@TEDXX123 yeah espresso based is an expensive one eeverywhere haha
@@TEDXX123 that’s how I do it! Gives me a nice balance through the week. And in all honesty I probably prefer my v60 to the espresso machine at work
I really like your comment about how home enthusiasts are trying to dial in limited amounts of coffee with limitless tools and techniques (basically) while baristas have unlimited coffee to optimize with the tools and techniques at hand: efficiency vs. taste and consistency.That's a really great frame to put this topic into. Really clicked for me!
Here’s where I'm at.
I started off with a £180 casabrews 5700 essentials machine with a cheap £80 melitta grinder. 51mm portafilter. Casabrews didn't even have a bottomless portafilter until now.
Stress after stress of trying to get barista quality coffee with my cheap setup caused me to need to upgrade. My weeks of youtube research and watching video after video I came to the conclusion that I needed to upgrade. I had too much knowledge to get good coffee out of my cheap setup.
I finally upgraded to what I consider to be my end game setup (until my disposable income improves lol). I now have a gaggia classic with a pid, 9 bar, dimmer to change pressure, and better milk steaming (it's so hard to get good milk texture). Paired with a DF64 grinder.
Now I'm timing shots and getting coffee that I see on RUclips.
However I'm still toying with how far I want to go down this rabbit hole. Ain't no way I'm buying expensive 200 dollar baskets and gear. I just want high quality and consistency and the ability to taste the notes advertised.
Sorry for the long story I'm just not sure how far I want to go and what opportunities that may arise from it.
Home Baristas at cafes in 2024: "Hey, nice coffee machine..."
Work at Starbucks. I make the good stuff after a shift. It's cathartic.
Professional woodworker here: i kinda know traditional joints, how to orient the grain etc, but its not making money. What does make money? CNC made furniture from particle board. Try to get that across to a home enthusiast with fancy handtool =) I guess its the same for a lot of things. Profession needs to make ends meet on a tight scedule.
I've home brewed beer for well over a decade and I'm part owner in a local brewery.
Master Brewers obviously make more than your average barista, but the same dynamics play. Many master Brewers never home brewed and lack the same level of passion as hobbiests.
There's lots of average breweries that don't stand out, there's a tiny handful of breweries that beer enthusiasts notice, and I think all of the ones I can think of were started by passionate home brewers.
I find it very sad when something becoming a job takes the fun out of it. I am a scientist at a university, and if I ever lost my childlike enthusiasm, I would lose my network, and soon after everything else. That said, I think it’s not necessary to connect with employees over coffee science specifically, but to connect over SOMETHING generally. My PhD student Sake Jan Velthuis has eloquently published on this under the term “commercial freindship.”
I do wake up in the morning and always look forward to grinding beans and making coffee. Totally agree to, it's fun to experiment.
Thanks to Lance for this video. I have been a coffee lover and now I have begun geeking out on coffee. The reason. I find myself in Madagascar. It turns out they have some of the best arabica in the world grown right here. It is a wonder. My wife and I are working on bringing this coffee to the world to share it with others but more importantly to help the farmers and people of Madagascar in our own small way. It is fantastic and naturally low in caffeine. The Robista in Madagascar is the commodity but it is actually good. It is incredibly strong. We want to promote an Espresso Blend that is 70/30 arabica/robusta but PURE MADAGASCAR. How this would translate to a cafe I have no idea but I am hoping it will catch on.
I worked at a roaster 12 years ago and knew nothing about coffee. My boss gave me a range to hit on the Ag Spec and that's what I aimed for. Passion wasn't the job, operating the machine, doing changeovers quickly, and supervising the packers was.
Nice job. Very balanced and thoughtful take on this subject. I agree that cafes for the most part produce for the masses and focus on efficiency. Important to have more reasonable expectations of tasting cafe brews especially in milk/alternative milk based drinks.
Many people do not know or do not want to recognize the effort and work of other people. I find it deplorable to criticize, mistreat or expose the barista for not serving him in the way he would have liked.
I am a coffee enthusiast, a home barista, and it would never occur to me to disrespect anyone serving me in a coffee shop in any way.
For me it is a matter of simply being a good human being.
I think it would be a cool contest to pit professional baristas who only ever work with the recipes and machines at their businesses against home brewers who have big collections of gear but haven't pulled thousands of shots. Gotta integrate a time factor.
I hope someone take it and make a vid about it, definitely a watch😊
Totally agree with your comment about US vs non-US baristas. We lived in Korea and close to our apartment was a cafe' that also roasted their beans. You could get cups of various beans that were roasted and aged correctly. Espresso or pour-over. They loved what they did and it was something they would experiment. In the US, time = money. In the US it is about saving time and producing a consistent product and getting maximum turnover of customers.
That’s the norm pretty much everywhere, not an US issue. Similarly you will find great specialty coffee shops that put more love into their craft in every country.
that was refreshing!
❤loved it❤
long live to your channelS
I feel attacked every time I hear “frisbee golf” jkjk lol tbh I’m just glad people are aware of disc golf. Highly recommended while caffeinated! :)
I go work remotely at loyal coffee sometimes. Today I bought their washed Rwanda and the barista gave me two bags of it for free that were a bit too far past roast to sell. Great unexpected experience.
I appreciate the insight! I’ve often times gone to cafes expecting amazing pour overs and getting let down and frustrated but it totally makes sense that they are going for efficiency
Thank you- changed my perspective, as always.
Great video, i am really enjoying this series
After years of being my own home barista, I can not even imagine staring at the masses as they anxiously wait for their drinks. If the process seems thought out and the experience is enjoyable, I'm pleased. When I visited Bentonville, AR and the surrounding area I made it a point to hit all the Onyx locations and I was very impressed with all the locations. Watching the roasters at Onyx....my kids just went and sat down and told my wife..."I guess we lost Dad for awhile"
I like a lot that you mentioned that matter
I am a home barista who became a professional and now I am a home barista back again
I can tell you too that the most part of pro baristas don't know what they are doing
They can't change grind size, they don't even know about yield ratios
They only know to "photocopy" a shot
P.s. Off course the small percentage like you Lance, that you care about coffee science and you are already a teacher, it's not the average pro barista, I hope that you know what I mean
P.s.2 Love you always ♥️
You have the most insightful videos
Facts said loud🎉 probably my favorite Lance video
I’ll be honest this topic has been raging inside me for a long time so first off thanks for sharing. Gonna do a big long comment that probably no one cares about but need to get it off my chest 😅 I’m biased in favor of being a past and now partially coffee professional so first I will critique myself, then the coffee pros then the home enthusiasts. This vid makes me feel super heard already because I’m now kind of half and half of both categories. So maybe this comment is unnecessary but want to add to the convo. Although I’m glad about it now, I didn’t make it as a coffee pro for a career for different reasons. One is that it seemed like it was more so friendship or relationship closeness that brought promotion more than anything. Or just other work or professional skills that had nothing to do with coffee. I had none of those. Since I’m neither in the industry nor have the resources of most home enthusiasts it’s a struggle to stay current but thanks to this channel, my continued passion and other things, I do. A lot of the coffee pros or baristas I knew in my local area cared more about the name of the shop or company you’ve worked for as status. It was never a “cool ur a coffee person too let’s talk about coffee” vibe with them, and always a “who have you worked for or who do you know” type convos. I get it bc coffee is a v social thing. I think it’s safe to say if you’ve watched every one of lances videos on RUclips, or even just a few, or even just a few daddy hof videos, you might already know more than most baristas if not the actual shop owners as well 😅 Now the part I’ve been waiting for as a biased ex and current semi coffee pro 😅…. I think home enthusiasts know more about gear than maybe even some high level coffee pros and that’s where they really shine. This is just my personal experience so don’t kill me…but in my experience home enthusiasts may have more coffee “science” knowledge but even when they do if they do it can tend to be very spotty and random facts mixed in with myths and mixed in with prioritizing things that aren’t super important. There’s less of a cohesive concept of coffee science. Just to level the playing field I’m honestly not saying home baristas vs industry ppl are better or worse just different I really do think it all evens out in the end! I will say that many industry baristas obviously have more experience due to making countless coffees, so a lot of times they can make “better” tasting coffee with less gear and science knowledge than many home enthusiasts. I think this is also due to pallet development, the industry barista to me tends to have better pallet development even if they don’t like their job! Again not to bash (maybe I’m bashing since I feel I need to say that I’m not bashing 😅) but I’ve been served some very weird tasting coffees from home enthusiasts who thought the coffee was wonderful. Yes everyone defines “good” and “better” as different but in my opinion home pallet development I’ve experienced has been wonky in my own very personal experience. I spent several years in the coffee industry before changing to something entirely different that I’ve been happy with and has lent more growth to me. Though it is the bottom of the barrel or most baseline gear to most home enthusiasts I’ve finally been able to afford some home equipment I’ve always wanted! I now identify as both due to my industry past history and very recent small mock business operations of selling my own coffee and roasting/selling my own beans, as well as doing everything from home including nerding out and experimenting! My Best advice for industry baristas/ppl, continue to build foundation of science and kindly share your knowledge and experiences with home enthusiasts. My best advice for home enthusiasts, make pallet development the priority, make it your goal to brew something incredible by relying on pallet instead of gear or recipes or numbers etc. Connect, hang out, and learn from and with each other! All love, Cave and Cog out ❤️🤘🏼☕️
Ok thanks for the insight I will stop with my million questions while my barista makes my pour over
Coming from Europe, I’m culturally shocked by this video.
I feel like my local specialty coffee shops here either roast their own coffee or import fancy beans from all around the world. They give me advices on brewing water, ratio/temperature or resting time.
Of course not talking about regular coffee shops that just make the world go by the day. But I would not think to go to a specialty shop that does not “nerd out” a bit at least since I also go there for their advices.
I’ve read in the comments the theory of tipping vs no-tipping culture. Often here the owner who is passionated and not depend on tips is behind the bar as well. So maybe the difference is there.
Shops here are also less busy and more laid back. They have time to do pour overs, make you smell the grounds, etc. The minimum salary and lessened economical pressure might play a big role.
Nonetheless very insightful video, good reminder to keep some stuff for me and not over sharing in some circumstances :)
Hallelujah! (And love the new hairstyle!)
this is the first time I have heard Lance talk about Endorffeine in Los Angeles. I love to hear that he thinks highly of Jack. I have only been able to go twice, but I am looking forward to going again!
When is the video coming on coffee cups?
As a former service worker, barista and now salesperson in a roastery i really think you're on point. i actually do the nerding out and i do know that my coffee at home is probably better than whatever i can get in a random cafe. But that said, ive never had a colleague who was interested in that side of coffee and im fully aware that most professionals have a stressful job and have neither the time nor the interest in discussing things like the astringency of the coffee they serve.
Be nice to your baristas/food service workes, tip them and don't be the vuy who complains about coffee being marginally worse than it could potentially have been.
I would not just assume that thy like or love their job. It could just be a job to them and thy don’t care. I had a chemistry teacher in college and I approached after class with a bunch of questions. She stopped me mid sentence and told me “this is just my job i don’t actually like chemistry”. That stuck with me my whole life. Just remember it’s just a paycheck to people working a job.
This resonates. Normal cafes, even the "specialty" kind, aren't for coffee enthusiasts and that's NOT an indictment on baristas. It seems that most orders I see at shops are big milk drinks. It's not that complicated to make great black coffee either on batch, simple pourovers, fast flow allongés, etc, but cafes are simply not set-up for it and they don't really need to be given the reality of the business. I would go to a "nerd's" coffee bar but that's going to be a couple shops out of hundreds in a big city.
Great filter coffee in a cafe setting is super hard, way harder than decently dialing-in espresso.
Pourover by hand is not a great option (time -> cost, little consistency) and won’t taste great almost anywhere. Batch brew is tricky as well. Can’t make big batches because they get stale too quickly -> max 2/3 cups per batch. The best systems I have seen are racks of multiple automated brew heads that make a single brew each - on demand. Or something like the GroundControl.
That’s really not true. I can think of quite a few cafes in my city that do pour overs etc and are definitely high enough quality for enthusiasts. The baristas themselves are enthusiasts (myself included). Maybe that’s not the case where you live.
Very good video!
It's funny, I still haven't been to a Cafe. My wife wanted an Latte at home and now I'm deep into the rabbit hole. Dont even drink coffee but in that i have no idea about taste. Thats what I really need to learn now.
Very good points.
Totally agreed with you Lance!
Excellent! 👍🏻
Thank you Lance. 🙏🏻
My boy out here creating world peace
I asked a Barista once what dose they used ( genuinely interested as was my favourite shop at the time ( Rosslyn if you're interested ) ) to which I got the snotty reply, "your machine won't have the same pressure as ours".....a) irrelevant and b) I had a Linea Mini, so even more irrelevant and obviously no way he could know my home setup. All of which I wouldn't have been bothered about, just the stroppy dismissive attitude that was a letdown.
I’ve just found this channel (which I enjoy a lot now) and it reminded me that Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood had one. God damn it I miss him, too ❤
I still don’t understand why this doesn’t translate to other jobs. I can nerd out with mechanics over car stuff all day and the same things you mentioned apply to them. Maybe the difference is the lower barrier for entry for baristas means that you get people working the job but not necessarily being good at it or passionate about it.
I think it often does. It also may have to do with your feelings about burnout and relative value for work. If you work in an industry and feel like the industry is taking care of you, I bet you are far more likely to stay put and develop that love for the job. If you feel like you can barely afford your bills, are treated like garbage, and your only chance to grow financially is to move on, then that job will always feel like a stepping stone to the next thing.
It is interesting that Lance is someone that had other aspirations and fell in to coffee. He was in graduate school and using his job to help pay his bills. But he had specialty coffee and changed directions. I assume in the US usually the opposite is true. Someone takes a barista job and uses tips to get "beer money" if maybe parents are helping for school or they are trying to afford to pay for their school (not easy when bachelor's degrees often come with 6 figure costs over 4 years nowadays). And they are looking forward to leveraging that degree to improve their finances. If a barista job cannot compete with the opportunities after graduation, then the barista job will always feel like a step towards that opportunity rather than a goal. And then those baristas get that "What will you do next" thing Lance mentions. No wonder so few want to stay in the industry.
Any job can convince you to nerd out. I have gotten a reputation at my job for being the Excel and NetSuite expert because I like to find ways to do things better and faster. I like learning how to use the tools of NetSuite or learn new functions in Excel to help me process and access data faster for people on my team. It is sort of gratifying having a CFO or controller call me the expert on software that they've used for decades because I am happy to learn to use advanced functions that scare so many other accountants away (aka anything they didn't have to use in school or their first year on the job). But I feel like honing my craft gives me room for growth, I feel like I get good value for my time from work, feel appreciated by those around me, and it lets me enjoy getting better. I assume that if I made say 10-15/hr+tips, had to deal with people insulting me, managers asking me to do too much, and generally just felt exhausted all while my bills piled up... the last thing I'd want to do is go home and find the latest video from James Hoffman or Lance.
@@Fidasaindinteresting take as well. I love coffee and I love cars. The reason why I brought up the mechanic example is because I’m a mechanical engineer that worked a lot on cars but I also hung around workshops and garages with “low level” technicians that fit the bill for what you and Lance describe. However I’ve never met a technician that wouldn’t give me very long talks about what they think I should do about my car problems or what they think of the latest tech in the automotive world or which German car do they hate most…etc. I learned a lot from them and they always came across as willing to “nerd out”. Car shops are not the nicest place to work, I would argue a barista has it easier, but what do I know…
@@DigitalicaEG Yeah I think you're right that people "stumble" into being a barista differently compared to being a mechanic due to the economics of the two jobs. I think that another dynamic is that people who choose to stay baristas even when other options come up could do so because they like the hospitality/service aspect more so than the coffee. That other side is just as much a part of the job if not bigger.
Here in Tokyo, so many specialty and third wave coffee shops have the bar far away from customers. Sometimes, no bar at all. So it's hard to strike up a conversation with them. Usually, I hit up small one -man shops cuz I'm there to share and listen to stories etc etc.
Makes total sense. BMW car dealers cannot stand the BMW enthusiasts crowd. The enthusiasts know so much about old cars etc etc and come in and will never buy a new car. The car dealers must sell cars or baby ain’t got shoes. So it is the same with home anything.
I have found that if the owner or a general manager is there, frequently they are just as nerdy and will chat
Usually a bit of a dick in my expeirence
Shops in the Philly area do pay decent if you consider tips are good, but unfortunately the cost of living is so high it kind of evens out.
Good stuff here Lance.
Is it just my connection or is the audio really breaking up?
Fascinating stuff! Didn’t hamper my enjoyment but sounds like there’s some sample rate funkiness going on with the audio.
If Atlanta knows about good coffee then they’re the perfect market for an expensive exclusive reservation only coffee place. Favorite past time out there is dressing up and waiting. lol
Love this!
I'll speculate on the US vs non-US barista outlook! Tipping culture. US baristas need to make their average customer as happy as possible to get a good tip. That means being the right amount of chatty or not, and making coffee the way the customer wants it above all. If you don't need to rely on tips to make a living, you can focus on making the coffee the best way you think it can be, and you have more freedom to tell a customer "no" when they ask for something that would mess with your workflow.
One time I made a freeze distilled milk joke at my local coffee roaster and the barista said "What's that?"
Price is imo a big factor in this tension. Where I live (Belgium) a speciality V60 costs between €4,50 and €6,00, a logical price taking into account labour time, cost of materials etc. But when I (or another coffee afficionado) order a €5 drink, I expect to experience something special, something I can't make myself, because well, €5 is a lot of money for a drink. It's often not fair towards the barista, but the owner should, I think, be mindful of this: don't offer the fancy pour overs if you don't have the barista training to back it up. While of course a client should be aware that not every coffee can be a masterpiece.
So you’re saying coffee professionals need us but we do not need them.
Great video.
Wish I could just find a good espresso. So much of what I see/get is a crappy pull that apparently tastes fine in the 90% of milk/sugar/flavored drinks 90% of the customers order.😢
Pulls that run like water and baristas that are climbing on top of a tamper because the grind is so course. Timed pulls just based on time and nothing else.....
I'm not a coffee geek but I know of 5 coffee cafes within 10 minute drive and I couldn't get a passable espresso at any of them.🤷🏼♂️
There is no point in professional baristas vs. home baristas. Manufacturers (also professionals) is another story. See the new Linea Mini. 2024 and they add a shot timer and still embarrass themselves by mocking a flow control with a digital switch.
It’s more fun than a push button. I see nothing wrong with that.
Man I only go to shops if someone else is paying. Like you said the coffee ain't thaaat good
Imo in other countries the third wave coffee culture isn't as strong, I'm sure there's not even a huge 2nd wave culture. Most people drink instant coffee/some super dark roast filter and flood it with cream and sugar and go about their day, so if there's gonna be a cafe the demographic who flocks to it/applies are primarily gonna be coffee nerds. just my 2 cents
I live 3 minutes from my shop. Use 3 de1s and am there every morning. My shop is my home setup lol. I try to incorporate as much from both worlds
it's kind of weird because you talk about if barrista's are brewing at home it's probably a with something cheap. I'm a professional chef; and I think the way I'm able to enjoy cooking at home is to try to make it feel luxurious; with a higher end knife, cutting board, and frying pan than I would use at work.
to have a high end experience at home, the cost for a home barista is much higher. 200-300 for each item: knife, Pan, cutting, board has you with very nice quality items that have a lifetime of use. granted eventually more knives, pans, cool devices( sous vide,etc) will add up, but cost of entry before it feels high end is much less. for 750-1000 you are barely breaking into espresso machines... and you still need a grinder
also chefs earn way more than baristas
sound is a little broken here. It's hard to watch on headphones
"Unless they're consumed by coffee, like me!"
( proceeds to cosumes coffee)
Sometimes you consume the beans. Sometimes the beans consume you!
Go compare a hobbyist that keeps high end coral reef tanks, then compare them to the Phd that run the day to day at huge public aquariums...worlds and worlds of difference...the hobbyist have revolutionized the understanding we have of propagating corals and saltwater fish...
Papa Hoffman said generally coffee shops are designed to make good espresso but home enthusiasts are more able to make great espresso for reasons you mention.
Are you hiding all the power cords? Where are they? Did you build the studio with space to drop them down and plug in below counter top?
Yes I did!
Where did you get that 94% specialty coffee statistic? I have tried looking for a similar statistic before and found everywhere includes places like Starbucks and McDonald's in specialty coffee 😂😢 so never found anything useful
Hi Lance, I love the new format - but as a podcast. My podcast app does not see any new episodes since 07 (2024/01/14) and even with RUclips Premium which I have I cannot download this video to listen to it out and about. The other videos in the channel I can download. Is this something you influence or a glitch? Would love to hear you again on the go!
weird, now it works 🎉
The enthusiast not understanding the professional. Wow, yes. I get it on both ends. I get frustrated in gaming about tech and software and networking issues with a new game and part of just wants to ask "Why not pay AWS more at launch?!" but the reality is it is far more complex and there may be many more issues driving it.
I am an accountant. Everyone assuming I do taxes, people not understanding how to allocate overhead per unit, people not understanding "write it off", etc. Those amuse and annoy me. People being bad at using data and logic for financial decision making annoys me.
I assume coffee professionals are the same. They either don't have the capacity to do the same workflow we do. Or they have expensive equipment to automate the workflow (similar to how I use an ERP or CRM at work and constantly grow my knowledge of Excel to be able to analyze data faster and more efficiently when working with our finance guy on revenue reporting).
I made the mistake of letting my hobby become my job before and will never do it again. I am a home roaster and occasionally take on a few customers (enough to cover the depreciation ony my roaster is my goal). But I will avoid it ever becoming my full time thing. I assume baristas are the same. Even if they are enthusiasts before starting, it probably becomes hard to maintain that interest after a long day of work. Especially if they aren't being paid well enough for their work. I doubt they really want to spend free time after work to hone their craft when they are living paycheck to paycheck. I know I rarely cared about getting better at Excel when I was a revenue cycle manager working less than full time for fairly low hourly pay. I hit a certain level of skill to do my job good enough and that was that. But now that I am making more and still have plenty of room to grow? You'd better believe I am trying to improve my knowledge of my ERP or Excel or get my CPA to hopefully eventually land a manager or senior manager/director title.
But I'm not marketing my roasting and hoping to make it a full time job. Because I am happy with it being a hobby. I also am thrilled to support local roasteries because I better appreciate the skill of roasting specialty coffee. Not just because it saves me some time and my budget can afford it. But because I can taste, smell, and look at their beans and have more of an idea what to strive for at home (and there are a couple places that still beat the crap out of my beans and I love when I can make it to their shops and buy a few bags). If I was roasting full time, I doubt I'd be as interested in learning how to make espresso, or brew better pour over. I'd be too darned focused on roasting and probably cupping and not really have the time or mental energy for those skills.
The sad truth I found is , you can work so hard and you might move up to cafe manager , and the salary will still be barely enough to pay rent
Don't whip anything out at a cafe... Solid advice. 😉
Interested in the observation that there seems to be more coffee enthusiasts baristas in European countries. Would anyone care to share why they think that might be the case?
7.15? I have in medical industry like 4 per hour, and rent is like 800. Whole my salary. Plus electricity, internet, coffee :D
Yes but I paid about 1200 per month for health insurance, 1000 per month in rent, food is insanely expensive in the states, cars are necessary so gasoline, car insurance, etc. Phone bills, utilities, etc.
I see. I have luckily health insurance in salary taxes accounted. What you wrote about insurance and rent is like two months of full time job per month in US. Plus those other things. Thank you for your response.@@LanceHedrickUnfiltered And I am sorry to bother you with those unrelevant topics to the video.
Is that a dragonball mug?
With all that said…it is still amazing to frequent a specialty coffee shop that prioritizes taste/quality over workflow
I suspect Asian baristas are just being polite. It is a cultural thing from my experience. European might be different.
are there similar constraints that the professional coffee roaster is under where the home enthusiast could likely roast better coffee at home?
Not really I’d say. Roasting is hard. There is only a handful of roasters around the world (!) that do a consistently great job. You need immense talent or many years of experience until you’ll get even close.
Also you’d probably want a small batch roaster - but still bigger than a sample roaster - for reasons of consistency. Therefore probably requiring a high consumption or friends you are sharing your roasts with.
The biggest issue will be how hard it is to get your hand on great green coffee. All your time is wasted the moment you have only access to okay greens.
No largely because home roasting machines suck unless you cough up 8 grand
Just taste their coffee with a loud slurp and thy will know that you know that thy know that you know lol.
Do I consume coffee or does it consume me? Yes.
coffee pros just do simple coffee at home; they bripe
I like going to a Cafe, as long as they are serios about good coffee (They own an EK 43). A lot of times the coffee is pretty good and some times it isn't but it is okay. For took it a long time to reach the level at home, witch my favorite Cafe delivers for hundrets of customers each day. Now i am at a Point i could say the coffee tasts a bit better at home, but it was a long way. I live in germany and i think this is one of the countries with the worst coffee culture you can find and so is it very hard to find places which offer good or even accepteble coffee. But last month i was at vacation in Taiwan and the coffee culture there was gread, at least every poor over was gread and not all of the cafes did use an EK43 a lot of them used griders witch looked like out of your cheap grinder series, but the results were inspiering for me, so i started doing poor over now.
Another thing i want to say is, that a lot of good coffee i had was grided before by a Mythos grinder, so my assisoation is gread coffee when i see a Mythos. And i bought a Eureka Atom 75 cause it can fit the Mythos burrs, so its like a budget Mythos, to have the nice coffee at home too, so it hurts every time you say you dont like the Mythos 😅
Best comparison is cooking. A home cook can outperform a chef for one dinner. But the chef will bring their game day in day out for dozens and dozens of dishes.
I'm a professional photographer, and I can't stand enthusiasts photographer. I guess it's just how it is haha
Once it becomes a “job” it changes everything.
I'm so tired of baristas that dont take pride in their job. Burnt milk, terrible espresso shots and one dump pours on "pourover". I leave feeling ripped off most visits to new cafes. These are not "professionals" in my opinion
They aren't paid to care.
40% tips? keep dreaming
people do it at bars all the time. much higher labor and much lower margin at cafes. But swing by sometime when i'm doing a shift! I'll make sure to have a nice wad of spit in your cup ;)_
Retitle this to Coffee Professionals bs Entitled Home Brewers