Irrespective of guilt or innocence, this appears to be an unsafe conviction and potentially a grave miscarriage of justice. I am dissatisfied and extremely uneasy with this case.
This is so true. The media stoked the glames and the public bought into it hook, line and sinker. How did Lucy stand a chance against that kind of onslaught. No wonder she didn’t attend the the verdict. The woman was broken by years of bullying by those consultants and harassment by Cheshire police. I do wonder if those consultants and detectives Paul hughes and Nicola Evans feel any guilt or shame about what they have done. The answer is no because they will all benefit from it. Especially the detectives, they will get promotion for sure
There certainly is a groundswell of experts saying that she could be innocent but how to get this into the largely right wing media is not going to be easy and no way will the BBC help
Hi Hannah, i think looking to appeal was predictable, after all her defense team wouldnt be doing their job if they didnt exhaust every possible avenue. Grounds for appeal ... off the top of my head, questioning the directions the Judge gave the jury? example: were they wrongly advised as to what weight to give to evidence? How about appeal on the grounds of procedural error during the trial? Was statistical evidence given undue importance without explaining what statistics can and can't prove? example: in a large enough random data set you can find seemingly coherent patterns emerge. Appeal procedure is not something i know much about, maybe there are other grounds. I do think that if leave to appeal is withheld, the defense team will continue to explore any and every avenue, maybe there is precedent in case law which gives appropriate grounds to appeal ?
Very unsatisfactory GUILTY verdict based entirely on circumstantial evidence for the most part! Hopefully this time experts on her defense council will do a proper job of challenging the circumstantial case against her which has many flaws.
It's about the evidence. Was the evidence built around her to prove her guilty? Miscarriage of justice. Weak defence. Should the evidence have been admitted as evidence?
Here in the US, filing appeals shortly after conviction is par for the course. Especially in high profile cases. Appellate attorneys specialize in representing clients post-conviction. The headlines always make it seem unfathomable that a now-convicted perp would dare file an appeal.. but it's attempted in nearly every instance. All in all it's nothing to get excited about unless, or until, it's granted.
That’s interesting. I’d say it’s less common here so it’s an interesting development. Let’s see if she is allowed to appeal…some press are losing it over the possibility though 😳
After reading both Science on Trial and Mr Law, Health and Technology, I can say wholeheartedly I will contribute to funding an appeal. I have never seen such compelling evidence for a miscarriage of justice.
The conviction of this woman was a criminal act or conspiracy in itself. How can the general public buy into this crap so whole heartedly. I think logic and common sense left this country years ago
@@andyryan3756 lucy letby has now become a product, shes worth more in prison than out, documentries books tv shows and so on, theres gonna be people making a lot of money out of her
@@megane230f1 you are so right but I wish you were not. Just look at the amount of Lucy letby bashing videos are on here. Have you noticed how well produced they are to. It’s like they prepared them before the verdict and rolled them out. That crime scene 2 courtroom is the worst. He clearly has no moral compass. He has gone from reporting what was said to trying to influence opinion. It just shows how low as a nation
Readers will know Letby worked adjacent days by request BUT realise for 12 hours of every one of those days she WAS NOT in Hospital and at home sleeping!!
There is an awful lot of medical evidence and legal process to understand in all of this. Thank you so much for answering my questions with such clarity. I am grateful. xx
I don't normally comment on controversial topics But to clarify some misconceptions she had a QC barrister and she was entitled to the same amount of legal funding as the prosecution were. The defence only provided 1 expert witness who was a plumber, they were unable to provide any expert with credible option or evidence to counteract the prosecution statements.
Would the experts’ opinion that air embolism was the primary cause of the deaths and collapses having no supporting post mortem or autopsy evidence be sufficient grounds?
I find it very odd that the pathologists gave the causes of death as 'natural causes' and didn't notice anything suspicious ... until an 'expert witness' who wasn't an expert decided it was air embolism from looking at x-rays 3 years later.
Appeal! All that will do is find her guilty of even more murders! Or maybe she’s hoping for one of her life terms to be reduced to 100 years instead of 200 years. She could get out age 133!
Hi Hannah, I acknowledge this is not quite what you've asked for, but have you ever considered what a jury self assessment of the evidence might look like and how it might make the task of judging complex technical cases, be it medical, banking, cyber crime etc. more reliable? The jury would (in my imagination ) be given a set of multiple choice questions, and later the correct answers against which they could asses their own individual understanding. And they could ask for clarification on any ones they got "wrong". E.g MRs X was injected with cyanide. True /False / An opinion of an expert in cyanide poisoning/ the opinion of someone expert in murder ? Etc sets What do you think?
They are two separate issues. Firstly, the retrial is to do with the jury not being able to reach a decision on six of the charges of attempted murder. This means that she was found neither guilty, nor not guilty for those six charges. The prosecution can now seek a retrial for those six charges with a new jury but this has to be approved by the court. They may decide that it is not in the public interest to seek a retrial as it would take too long and be too expensive. In terms of the appeal, she is wanting to appeal against the crimes for which she has been convicted, so seven murders and six attempted murders, but this is not an automatic right of appeal. Therefore the Court of Appeal have to give her permission and they will only do this if there is a chance that the conviction was unsafe so for example, key evidence was left out, there was an issue with the jury not being impartial or new evidence has come to light. I hope that now makes some kind of sense. Let me know if you have any questions 👊
@@learnlawwithhannah I have a few questions. If an appeal is granted, does that mean a full trial with a whole new jury for the six no verdict cases, a new evidence presented case, as pertains to the new double jepordy laws? Is it possible to present an appeal such as this with the trial judge alone, in camera as they call it, to scrutinize new evidence, as there has already been a full and lengthy trial? I also don't understand how medical evidence can be called circumstantial, surely it is still evidence of some significant bearing when viewed as a whole?
@@janemccourt5022 It depends what the grounds for appeal are. If the Court of Appeal think the conviction is unsafe they can quash it and the person walks free or they can order a retrial. A retrial means it goes back to the crown court and a trial with a new jury would happen
@@janemccourt5022 In terms of the no verdicts the CPS next Monday are in court and yes it may be that a retrial is ordered. There are two separate things going on with this case. The appeal and the no verdict cases are different things- hope that clarifies things a bit?
I know its a different case but, Myra Hindley was constantly trying to appeal her case and even got high profile people supporting her and never got anywhere.
There was an eye witness to one of Brady and Hindley's murders, pornographic photos of one of the children they murdered ... and that awful audio tape where Hindley's voice could be clearly heard. All there is with LL is the opinion of a retired doctor. @@anndenning3042
@@ruthbashford3176 There was evidence, police would have never convicted her for it. It may not be convincing to you or other people but there is evidence.
Very easy for us to make a snap decision on guilt or not, rash statements on the weight of 'circumstantial evidence' through snipits of information we see on social media. There was months of evidence, an incredibly complex web of evidence. If she has a valid ground for appeal it will pass through. That will be based against the several month trial by those who oversaw every word spoken. Will await there decision.
I have not read the 7 months of court transcript and I was also not present to see this live, the body language, tones, voice inflictions etc... The majority of the social media commentators were also not present and just taking small parts out of context of the whole trial and individual charge outcomes. I am therefore not in a position to give tangible defence or prosecution opinion on any aspect. I will wait and see what is brought forward as reasons for an appeal.
I felt the evidence as presented, was not of a high enough standard to be used to secure a conviction or be widely accepted by other professionals. We're not allowed to talk about it now apparently!
I’m not a student or clued up on the law but have been following your series on Letby. Thank you for your videos! Could the fact the jury couldn’t reach a verdict on some counts help her appeal?
I am on a lot of Lucy Letby sites on Facebook and so many people keep arguing saying it’s a miscarriage of justice, she was scapegoated etc…i don’t know why so many people are in denial about her guilt?
I’m not on Facebook, but I can imagine the kind of things people are saying….. of course, healthy debate is always encouraged, but as it stands at the moment, we have to trust the jury’s decision.
@@learnlawwithhannah I absolutely agree, I never thought she was innocent at all. even some of the comments on here are ridiculous someone said it was an underfunded defence, she had nearly a million pounds of legal aid, and a top criminal silk defending her….I would say she had a good defence team, they just didn’t have anything to work with.
I can`t understand why she`s appealing, she did a bad thing with babies, she killed babies, surely she`s sane enough to acknowledge what she did, was someone else an influencer? was someone else involved? shocked to read that it all happened between 2015 - 2016, some numbskulls about to not recognise that after 2 baby deaths, things would seem abit suspicious, 3? i`d get an inquiry done! 7 babies? sorry but total negligence after the 3rd death, a piss take!
@@Rose-s8k7d Yes that could well be a real possibility. I can’t believe the group think surrounding this case as in the masses being so sure the jury got it right.
The jury are laymen, not medical experts ... and can only reach a decision based on the information they are given. If the 'expert witness' gave incorrect information, they will give an incorrect verdict. @@ed6911
If Lucy Letby had a retrial and was found guilty again, would that be the end of all possibilities of being freed from prison? Would there be no legal way out from prison for her?
What do you think to the anonymity of the victims and witnesses after the trial finished, how long is it for? Will we ever know the names? If not that's very strange.
@@learnlawwithhannah The judge is a lawyer part of the same masonic club as the rest of them. When they see the treasure trove the appeal will be granted. Wait and see.
Your wrong about a lot of money being raised for an appeal no fund has be set up yet and if it was then her parents would be trustee's for that fund and it would be in a UK bank account not like the one that is being set up in her name from abroad
My personal opinion is she is guilty as sin. I’ve listened to countless hours and transcripts of her testimony and think she is a psychopath with a god complex! Just my opinion.
Me too .. had a very open mind at the beginning but too many “coincidences” when Letby was on shift . The coded messages in the diary swung me (babies initials on the date they were killed) the sheer panic in the text messages to doctor A when she was asked not to come in for her night shift and the sheer number of handover sheets found when her property was searched by the police . Lucy Letby is one calculated woman
Irrespective of guilt or innocence, this appears to be an unsafe conviction and potentially a grave miscarriage of justice. I am dissatisfied and extremely uneasy with this case.
It's crazy what they've done to her. Criminal.
This is welcome news and hopefully justice will see out. The trial was full of opinion dressed up as evidence and very poor (underfunded?) defence.
simp
This is so true. The media stoked the glames and the public bought into it hook, line and sinker. How did Lucy stand a chance against that kind of onslaught. No wonder she didn’t attend the the verdict. The woman was broken by years of bullying by those consultants and harassment by Cheshire police. I do wonder if those consultants and detectives Paul hughes and Nicola Evans feel any guilt or shame about what they have done. The answer is no because they will all benefit from it. Especially the detectives, they will get promotion for sure
Lets go!!!! Free Lucy Letby!!
There certainly is a groundswell of experts saying that she could be innocent but how to get this into the largely right wing media is not going to be easy and no way will the BBC help
simp
There is a lot of groundswell and support for Lucy from a wide variety of healthcare, legal and other professionals.
Hi Hannah, i think looking to appeal was predictable, after all her defense team wouldnt be doing their job if they didnt exhaust every possible avenue. Grounds for appeal ... off the top of my head, questioning the directions the Judge gave the jury? example: were they wrongly advised as to what weight to give to evidence? How about appeal on the grounds of procedural error during the trial? Was statistical evidence given undue importance without explaining what statistics can and can't prove? example: in a large enough random data set you can find seemingly coherent patterns emerge. Appeal procedure is not something i know much about, maybe there are other grounds. I do think that if leave to appeal is withheld, the defense team will continue to explore any and every avenue, maybe there is precedent in case law which gives appropriate grounds to appeal ?
Good points!
Yes she makes an appeal on the fact all the evidence was circumstancial , no actual proof of any murders at all
@@stephenoliver2170 I’m not sure that’s enough though
Very unsatisfactory GUILTY verdict based entirely on circumstantial evidence for the most part! Hopefully this time experts on her defense council will do a proper job of challenging the circumstantial case against her which has many flaws.
It's about the evidence. Was the evidence built around her to prove her guilty? Miscarriage of justice. Weak defence. Should the evidence have been admitted as evidence?
It's interesting to hear from someone who isn't a punishment fetishist, thrill-seeking true crime fan, or conspiracy theorist.
Here in the US, filing appeals shortly after conviction is par for the course. Especially in high profile cases. Appellate attorneys specialize in representing clients post-conviction. The headlines always make it seem unfathomable that a now-convicted perp would dare file an appeal.. but it's attempted in nearly every instance. All in all it's nothing to get excited about unless, or until, it's granted.
That’s interesting. I’d say it’s less common here so it’s an interesting development. Let’s see if she is allowed to appeal…some press are losing it over the possibility though 😳
After reading both Science on Trial and Mr Law, Health and Technology, I can say wholeheartedly I will contribute to funding an appeal. I have never seen such compelling evidence for a miscarriage of justice.
In order to fundraiser, we need Lucy's permission.
The conviction of this woman was a criminal act or conspiracy in itself. How can the general public buy into this crap so whole heartedly. I think logic and common sense left this country years ago
This poor woman is 100pc innocent. It crazy what's happened to her. The UK's worst misscarriage of justice.
I think it speaks of just how low down in character the uk has become. It feels
Like a show trial has taken place in one of the world’s dictatorships
@@andyryan3756 lucy letby has now become a product, shes worth more in prison than out, documentries books tv shows and so on, theres gonna be people making a lot of money out of her
@@megane230f1 you are so right but I wish you were not. Just look at the amount of Lucy letby bashing videos are on here. Have you noticed how well produced they are to. It’s like they prepared them before the verdict and rolled them out. That crime scene 2 courtroom is the worst. He clearly has no moral compass. He has gone from reporting what was said to trying to influence opinion. It just shows how low as a nation
No she isn't she murdered those who end of
Innocent no real evidence
Only when the person is white you need 100% evidence
@@Sniper95aclearly not in this case!
Readers will know Letby worked adjacent days by request BUT realise for 12 hours of every one of those days she WAS NOT in Hospital and at home sleeping!!
There is an awful lot of medical evidence and legal process to understand in all of this. Thank you so much for answering my questions with such clarity. I am grateful. xx
I don't normally comment on controversial topics
But to clarify some misconceptions she had a QC barrister and she was entitled to the same amount of legal funding as the prosecution were.
The defence only provided 1 expert witness who was a plumber, they were unable to provide any expert with credible option or evidence to counteract the prosecution statements.
For somebody who doesn't normally comment on controversial topics, I've read an awful lot of posts from you !
@@KingBee24 😂😂 don't normally as often a lot of emotions go around and can turn unpleasant. So easy to drag yourself in. Stepping away now!!!
THATS the problem her 'defense' made NO ATTEMPT to defender her!!!
It seems unlikely that they were UNABLE to provide any expert witness ... as so many are speaking out.
@@ruthbashford3176 Yes, she did NOT receive a fair trail, the NHS threw her under the bus to save themselves...
Would the experts’ opinion that air embolism was the primary cause of the deaths and collapses having no supporting post mortem or autopsy evidence be sufficient grounds?
I find it very odd that the pathologists gave the causes of death as 'natural causes' and didn't notice anything suspicious ... until an 'expert witness' who wasn't an expert decided it was air embolism from looking at x-rays 3 years later.
Thank you for answering my earlier questions. xx
Can she appeal on the grounds that she didn't get a fair trial ?
Yes but there have to be clear reasons as to why
@@learnlawwithhannah Did the filming of her arrest and the subsequent media coverage cause the jury to have a bias ? Why was it filmed and released?
@@learnlawwithhannah Is it true that there were 30 deaths and many of them cropped out of the list causing the framing of Lucy ?
@@T77489 I’m not sure. Statistics can definitely be manipulated though
Appeal! All that will do is find her guilty of even more murders! Or maybe she’s hoping for one of her life terms to be reduced to 100 years instead of 200 years. She could get out age 133!
inoccent
Hi Hannah, I acknowledge this is not quite what you've asked for, but have you ever considered what a jury self assessment of the evidence might look like and how it might make the task of judging complex technical cases, be it medical, banking, cyber crime etc. more reliable? The jury would (in my imagination ) be given a set of multiple choice questions, and later the correct answers against which they could asses their own individual understanding. And they could ask for clarification on any ones they got "wrong". E.g MRs X was injected with cyanide. True /False / An opinion of an expert in cyanide poisoning/ the opinion of someone expert in murder ? Etc sets What do you think?
Scapegoat.
A little confused with the retrial and appeals…I’m not clued up on law, what does appeal fully mean?
They are two separate issues. Firstly, the retrial is to do with the jury not being able to reach a decision on six of the charges of attempted murder. This means that she was found neither guilty, nor not guilty for those six charges. The prosecution can now seek a retrial for those six charges with a new jury but this has to be approved by the court. They may decide that it is not in the public interest to seek a retrial as it would take too long and be too expensive.
In terms of the appeal, she is wanting to appeal against the crimes for which she has been convicted, so seven murders and six attempted murders, but this is not an automatic right of appeal. Therefore the Court of Appeal have to give her permission and they will only do this if there is a chance that the conviction was unsafe so for example, key evidence was left out, there was an issue with the jury not being impartial or new evidence has come to light.
I hope that now makes some kind of sense. Let me know if you have any questions 👊
@@learnlawwithhannah thank you!
@@learnlawwithhannah I have a few questions. If an appeal is granted, does that mean a full trial with a whole new jury for the six no verdict cases, a new evidence presented case, as pertains to the new double jepordy laws? Is it possible to present an appeal such as this with the trial judge alone, in camera as they call it, to scrutinize new evidence, as there has already been a full and lengthy trial? I also don't understand how medical evidence can be called circumstantial, surely it is still evidence of some significant bearing when viewed as a whole?
@@janemccourt5022 It depends what the grounds for appeal are. If the Court of Appeal think the conviction is unsafe they can quash it and the person walks free or they can order a retrial. A retrial means it goes back to the crown court and a trial with a new jury would happen
@@janemccourt5022 In terms of the no verdicts the CPS next Monday are in court and yes it may be that a retrial is ordered. There are two separate things going on with this case. The appeal and the no verdict cases are different things- hope that clarifies things a bit?
I know its a different case but, Myra Hindley was constantly trying to appeal her case and even got high profile people supporting her and never got anywhere.
There was hard evidence that Myra Hindley was guilty ... nobody doubted it.
@@KingBee24 There is evidence of Lucy being guilty as well.
There was an eye witness to one of Brady and Hindley's murders, pornographic photos of one of the children they murdered ... and that awful audio tape where Hindley's voice could be clearly heard. All there is with LL is the opinion of a retired doctor. @@anndenning3042
@@ruthbashford3176 There was evidence, police would have never convicted her for it. It may not be convincing to you or other people but there is evidence.
Very easy for us to make a snap decision on guilt or not, rash statements on the weight of 'circumstantial evidence' through snipits of information we see on social media.
There was months of evidence, an incredibly complex web of evidence.
If she has a valid ground for appeal it will pass through. That will be based against the several month trial by those who oversaw every word spoken. Will await there decision.
I have not read the 7 months of court transcript and I was also not present to see this live, the body language, tones, voice inflictions etc...
The majority of the social media commentators were also not present and just taking small parts out of context of the whole trial and individual charge outcomes.
I am therefore not in a position to give tangible defence or prosecution opinion on any aspect.
I will wait and see what is brought forward as reasons for an appeal.
I felt the evidence as presented, was not of a high enough standard to be used to secure a conviction or be widely accepted by other professionals. We're not allowed to talk about it now apparently!
I’m not a student or clued up on the law but have been following your series on Letby.
Thank you for your videos!
Could the fact the jury couldn’t reach a verdict on some counts help her appeal?
They could also find her guilty on further charges!
I am on a lot of Lucy Letby sites on Facebook and so many people keep arguing saying it’s a miscarriage of justice, she was scapegoated etc…i don’t know why so many people are in denial about her guilt?
I’m not on Facebook, but I can imagine the kind of things people are saying….. of course, healthy debate is always encouraged, but as it stands at the moment, we have to trust the jury’s decision.
@@learnlawwithhannah I absolutely agree, I never thought she was innocent at all. even some of the comments on here are ridiculous someone said it was an underfunded defence, she had nearly a million pounds of legal aid, and a top criminal silk defending her….I would say she had a good defence team, they just didn’t have anything to work with.
I can`t understand why she`s appealing, she did a bad thing with babies, she killed babies, surely she`s sane enough to acknowledge what she did, was someone else an influencer? was someone else involved? shocked to read that it all happened between 2015 - 2016, some numbskulls about to not recognise that after 2 baby deaths, things would seem abit suspicious, 3? i`d get an inquiry done! 7 babies? sorry but total negligence after the 3rd death, a piss take!
She is appealing because she didn't do it, there is no real reason to believe she killed babies.
@@Rose-s8k7d
Yes that could well be a real possibility. I can’t believe the group think surrounding this case as in the masses being so sure the jury got it right.
The jury are laymen, not medical experts ... and can only reach a decision based on the information they are given. If the 'expert witness' gave incorrect information, they will give an incorrect verdict. @@ed6911
Agree she is guilty.
watch the interview with norman fenton and mclachlan and then you will understand why people are concerned about this trial.
So many legal experts on U Tube, why bother to qualify as a lawyer.
If Lucy Letby had a retrial and was found guilty again, would that be the end of all possibilities of being freed from prison? Would there be no legal way out from prison for her?
It would be highly unusual to have a third retrial and there would have to be new evidence or something that went wrong in the trial
Give her a fair trial
It’s a very interesting development- we need to see what the grounds are!
Guilty
Agree
What do you think to the anonymity of the victims and witnesses after the trial finished, how long is it for? Will we ever know the names? If not that's very strange.
I think it’s forever and it has been imposed to protect the children who survived
@@learnlawwithhannah It's also protecting the identities of those she's supposed to have killed as well as their families. Is this a new law?
retrial incoming
She needs leave (permission) first. Very interesting isn’t it…
@@learnlawwithhannah circumstantial evidence
Hope so judge wont be naive to release her from prison .
She will get an appeal because a lot of money is being raised for an appeal and lawyers can't say no to money.
It’s the judge’s decision and there have to be grounds to appeal 🤓
@@learnlawwithhannah The judge is a lawyer part of the same masonic club as the rest of them. When they see the treasure trove the appeal will be granted. Wait and see.
Your wrong about a lot of money being raised for an appeal no fund has be set up yet and if it was then her parents would be trustee's for that fund and it would be in a UK bank account not like the one that is being set up in her name from abroad
hi, Are you a solicitor?
Law teacher!
Letby just eants more time in the spotlight she absolutely loves the attention you can tell with her body language she likes having all eyes on her
My personal opinion is she is guilty as sin. I’ve listened to countless hours and transcripts of her testimony and think she is a psychopath with a god complex! Just my opinion.
Where did you hear recordings or find the transcripts of her testimony?
The whole trial is based on opinions, that is the problem.
Me too .. had a very open mind at the beginning but too many “coincidences” when Letby was on shift . The coded messages in the diary swung me (babies initials on the date they were killed) the sheer panic in the text messages to doctor A when she was asked not to come in for her night shift and the sheer number of handover sheets found when her property was searched by the police . Lucy Letby is one calculated woman
Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they're guilty of mass murder of babies. The evidence that has been used is very, very sketchy
Agree