I went to a salvation army rehab for my addiction to alcohol. I was in terrible shape , I was completely lost in my addiction. I was homeless and completely turned upside down. I had lost everything, including my family. This wad 8 years ago . The Salvation Army helped me and played a vital role in saving my life. I'm a Christian man who is thankful first to God , and the Salvation Army. I think it's sad all four of you are missing the point unless one of you were exposed to one of the ARC's you don't know how these places are run... you four are so misinformed .
Thanks for your comment. Our point here isn't to say that the Salvation Army does nothing good. I'm sure that there are plenty of instances where they have helped people in serious trouble. I've heard certain rules and things they do that are better than how many other places are run. But charitable works doesn't excuse bad theology. We hope you have faith in the true God, and a religion defined by scripture. Listen to what we say here, and check the scripture against the Salvation Army's doctrine, and see what the word of God says.
I listened to you until you said the Salvation Army is not Christian, and how you blatantly called the Salvation Army a cult. I served as a Pastor in the Salvation Army for 20-plus years. I served both here in the USA and in South Africa. I worked in the townships of South Africa and did not, as you stated, "Advertised to Men" what we did in those areas. Your issue is that we are not Armenian in Theological stance. We do not think that people are saved by human effort, as you stated; we believe that one is saved only by God's grace. For you to make broad brush statements of how we have become liberal, which is not valid, without ever coming to one of our offices and seeing the work that is done in the name of Jesus Christ is shallow and short-sighted. William Booth and John Wesly did not believe in sinless perfection but in Christian perfection. I invite you to my office and see for yourself in person, not in what you have read or just think to see what work is done in the name of Jesus Christ.
While we do not agree with the Arminianism of the Salvation Army, that is not what this episode was about. We would not say a church is a cult simply because they are Arminian. It seems to me that you are trying to imply that we are criticizing you for a theology that is quite common, rather than for issues that would be seen as problematic by most professing Christians - sinless perfectionism, abolition of the sacraments, and legalism (creating of new unbiblical laws). Can you explain the difference between sinless perfection and Christian perfection? We were basing our criticism on quotes from Booth and the Salvation Army's doctrinal statement.
It appears that RUclips deleted this comment (as we have seen them do many times), and we thought it was worth reposting. "My daughter recently applied for a job there working with children. She declined the job because they told her she would have to be "all inclusive" and change pronouns for LBGTQ children. Is that Christian? To be OK with a child being indoctrinated? When you were a pastor there, they probably did believe in Christian values but they have since come under attack for not being LBGTQ+ friendly and they completely conformed to it because they didn't want the reputation for that. Christians are to adhere to what God says, not man. How can you say The Salvation Army is Christian when they are teaching that all roads lead to Heaven and we can get to Heaven by good works? The bible says otherwise. We cannot change scripture to conform to society."
I thought Wesley believed in Christian Perfection not Sinless Perfection. There is a difference, Wesley points this out in his book "A plain account of Christian Perfection". I personally don't hold to Wesley's thoughts on this but just wanted to mention this to clear up that there is a difference.
I know that Wesley chose not to use the term sinless perfection. While I haven't read enough of Wesley's writings at the moment to know definitively, I suspect that he was making a distinction without a major theological difference. Perhaps you can explain further. Thanks for the comment.
The points that we are making about the Salvation Army are by no means specific to us. We hold to the second London Baptist confession of 1689 which is also an agreement with the Westminster Confession on these issues, both of which are held by thousands of churches and have been held for hundreds of years ( and the specific doctrines that we're talking about in this episode have been held for over a thousand years) . There's really nothing that we're saying in this episode that is specific to our church or our Church's declaration of what God's word says. If you generally want to know about our church it's Reformation Baptist church located in Youngsville North Carolina. Our website is reformationbaptistchurch.com, and there you can find links to the 2nd London Baptist Confession, if you are interested.
Some more context: Not drinking or doing drugs was setup as part of their covenants because of the demographic of people they were serving who struggled with addictions to these.
It is understandable that people would ask those with a history of drunkenness to abstain from all alcohol. But Booth went far beyond this - he took this so far that he made it into a core doctrine of his church, and was willing to destroy a sacrament instituted by Christ in order to maintain it.
It's not just false doctrine, it's no accountability for a lot of evil things they get away with even towards their own workers. Worksafebc did an indepth investigation and found two of their shelter workers were tormenting other shelter workers and the homeless clients AND all levels of management keep turning a blind eye, then with threats they silenced the staff who were crying out for help. I doubt Ridge Meadows Ministries in Maple Ridge BC Canada is only shelter who does this.
So, from what I am hearing, you are attacking Wesley's teaching and that only Calvinists will go to heaven because we are all cults???? It that not a sign of being a Cult?
We don't say that only Calvinists will go to heaven. We all know people who are not Calvinists who we consider to be brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, like we said, Cult is a pretty poorly defined word. It gets thrown around a lot. We would describe the Salvation Army according to its own doctrinal documents to teach heretical positions about salvation and the lives of believers, such as in Chapter 10, titled "Full Salvation", Further Explanation 10.A. "Essential of the Doctrine", Section 7 - "Holiness is not sinlessness" (page 201): "Sanctification does not mean the elimination of all possibility for sinning. Although it is possible through the Holy Spirit not to sin, even when we experience the fullness of God’s sanctifying power sin remains a possibility....However, we cannot say that those who are sanctified cannot, or will never, sin.Neither can we say that those who experience a fullness of God’s sanctifying power inevitably sin. Those who insist on the sinful imperfection of all believers fail to acknowledge the full benefit and work of the Atonement." and in the same chapter, from subsection C. "Historical Summary", part 7. "Methodism" (page 213): "Wesley took the notion of perfection from his reading of William Law’s books Christian Perfection and Serious Call. His definition of perfection was not that a person could be so good that they had no room for growth or improvement, but it had the biblical sense of achieving the desired end, fulfilment of the task for which we are created, a sense of completion, of maturity (thus reflecting the Greek word teleios which is translated into English as ‘perfect’ but literally means end, goal or target). So Wesley defined perfection as ‘that love of God and our neighbour *which implies deliverance from all sin* ." (emphasis mine) There are other quotes that we pull out during the episode relating to the ability to lose one's salvation and how a Christian continues in salvation (by continuing in good works) None of this means that there aren't people in the Salvation Army who are saved or even remotely that everyone working there is evil. But if you've read the doctrinal handbook and agree with it, that should disturb you greatly as those (and other) teachings are not Biblical.
I went to a salvation army rehab for my addiction to alcohol. I was in terrible shape , I was completely lost in my addiction. I was homeless and completely turned upside down. I had lost everything, including my family. This wad 8 years ago . The Salvation Army helped me and played a vital role in saving my life. I'm a Christian man who is thankful first to God , and the Salvation Army. I think it's sad all four of you are missing the point unless one of you were exposed to one of the ARC's you don't know how these places are run... you four are so misinformed .
Thanks for your comment. Our point here isn't to say that the Salvation Army does nothing good. I'm sure that there are plenty of instances where they have helped people in serious trouble. I've heard certain rules and things they do that are better than how many other places are run. But charitable works doesn't excuse bad theology. We hope you have faith in the true God, and a religion defined by scripture. Listen to what we say here, and check the scripture against the Salvation Army's doctrine, and see what the word of God says.
I listened to you until you said the Salvation Army is not Christian, and how you blatantly called the Salvation Army a cult. I served as a Pastor in the Salvation Army for 20-plus years. I served both here in the USA and in South Africa. I worked in the townships of South Africa and did not, as you stated, "Advertised to Men" what we did in those areas. Your issue is that we are not Armenian in Theological stance. We do not think that people are saved by human effort, as you stated; we believe that one is saved only by God's grace. For you to make broad brush statements of how we have become liberal, which is not valid, without ever coming to one of our offices and seeing the work that is done in the name of Jesus Christ is shallow and short-sighted. William Booth and John Wesly did not believe in sinless perfection but in Christian perfection. I invite you to my office and see for yourself in person, not in what you have read or just think to see what work is done in the name of Jesus Christ.
While we do not agree with the Arminianism of the Salvation Army, that is not what this episode was about. We would not say a church is a cult simply because they are Arminian. It seems to me that you are trying to imply that we are criticizing you for a theology that is quite common, rather than for issues that would be seen as problematic by most professing Christians - sinless perfectionism, abolition of the sacraments, and legalism (creating of new unbiblical laws).
Can you explain the difference between sinless perfection and Christian perfection? We were basing our criticism on quotes from Booth and the Salvation Army's doctrinal statement.
It appears that RUclips deleted this comment (as we have seen them do many times), and we thought it was worth reposting.
"My daughter recently applied for a job there working with children. She declined the job because they told her she would have to be "all inclusive" and change pronouns for LBGTQ children. Is that Christian? To be OK with a child being indoctrinated? When you were a pastor there, they probably did believe in Christian values but they have since come under attack for not being LBGTQ+ friendly and they completely conformed to it because they didn't want the reputation for that. Christians are to adhere to what God says, not man. How can you say The Salvation Army is Christian when they are teaching that all roads lead to Heaven and we can get to Heaven by good works? The bible says otherwise. We cannot change scripture to conform to society."
I really appreciate what Jonathan said about sanctification
"Soup, soap, and salvation" was a well-known motto and evangelistic approach of TSA
I thought Wesley believed in Christian Perfection not Sinless Perfection. There is a difference, Wesley points this out in his book "A plain account of Christian Perfection".
I personally don't hold to Wesley's thoughts on this but just wanted to mention this to clear up that there is a difference.
I know that Wesley chose not to use the term sinless perfection. While I haven't read enough of Wesley's writings at the moment to know definitively, I suspect that he was making a distinction without a major theological difference. Perhaps you can explain further. Thanks for the comment.
Who are thses people - they seem to be saying EVERYONE is wrong but them wow please let me know what church they go to I'd like to go
The points that we are making about the Salvation Army are by no means specific to us. We hold to the second London Baptist confession of 1689 which is also an agreement with the Westminster Confession on these issues, both of which are held by thousands of churches and have been held for hundreds of years ( and the specific doctrines that we're talking about in this episode have been held for over a thousand years) . There's really nothing that we're saying in this episode that is specific to our church or our Church's declaration of what God's word says.
If you generally want to know about our church it's Reformation Baptist church located in Youngsville North Carolina. Our website is reformationbaptistchurch.com, and there you can find links to the 2nd London Baptist Confession, if you are interested.
Some more context: Not drinking or doing drugs was setup as part of their covenants because of the demographic of people they were serving who struggled with addictions to these.
It is understandable that people would ask those with a history of drunkenness to abstain from all alcohol. But Booth went far beyond this - he took this so far that he made it into a core doctrine of his church, and was willing to destroy a sacrament instituted by Christ in order to maintain it.
I finally heard the real truth about the Salvation Army
I'm actually not surprised
Great message!
Thank you so much!
It's not just false doctrine, it's no accountability for a lot of evil things they get away with even towards their own workers. Worksafebc did an indepth investigation and found two of their shelter workers were tormenting other shelter workers and the homeless clients AND all levels of management keep turning a blind eye, then with threats they silenced the staff who were crying out for help.
I doubt Ridge Meadows Ministries in Maple Ridge BC Canada is only shelter who does this.
So, from what I am hearing, you are attacking Wesley's teaching and that only Calvinists will go to heaven because we are all cults???? It that not a sign of being a Cult?
We don't say that only Calvinists will go to heaven. We all know people who are not Calvinists who we consider to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
Also, like we said, Cult is a pretty poorly defined word. It gets thrown around a lot. We would describe the Salvation Army according to its own doctrinal documents to teach heretical positions about salvation and the lives of believers, such as in Chapter 10, titled "Full Salvation", Further Explanation 10.A. "Essential of the Doctrine", Section 7 - "Holiness is not sinlessness" (page 201):
"Sanctification does not mean the elimination of all possibility for sinning. Although it is possible through the Holy Spirit not to sin, even when we experience the fullness of God’s sanctifying power sin remains a possibility....However, we cannot say that those who are sanctified cannot, or will never, sin.Neither can we say that those who experience a fullness of God’s sanctifying power inevitably sin. Those who insist on the sinful imperfection of all believers fail to acknowledge the full benefit and work of the Atonement."
and in the same chapter, from subsection C. "Historical Summary", part 7. "Methodism" (page 213):
"Wesley took the notion of perfection from his reading of William Law’s books Christian Perfection and Serious Call. His definition of perfection was not that a person could be so good that they had no room for growth or improvement, but it had the biblical sense of achieving the desired end, fulfilment of the task for which we are created, a sense of completion, of maturity (thus reflecting the Greek word teleios which is translated into English as ‘perfect’ but literally means end, goal or target). So Wesley defined perfection as ‘that love of God and our neighbour *which implies deliverance from all sin* ." (emphasis mine)
There are other quotes that we pull out during the episode relating to the ability to lose one's salvation and how a Christian continues in salvation (by continuing in good works)
None of this means that there aren't people in the Salvation Army who are saved or even remotely that everyone working there is evil. But if you've read the doctrinal handbook and agree with it, that should disturb you greatly as those (and other) teachings are not Biblical.
The Salvation Army claims that they believe in the Bible. But I have met women in the SA that do not believe in Ephesians 5:22.