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I kind of agree. Remains to be seen how it affects coding itself. The sad reality for many of us is that we spend a ton of time answering emails, messages and creating design documents 😭 Even if it doesn't speed up coding itself much, maybe there's a case to be made that it can allow you to spend less time on other stuff and more time coding...
With a decent IDE typing speed isn't a limitation because you are only typing partial words or phrases anyway. I haven't experienced typing speed being the bottleneck in a very long time.
you're right. luckily many reserved words in programming are already english words - match, switch, for, etc. But for the abbreviated words that aren't - var, fn, struct, etc - you can easily add chords for those as well.
@@codetothemoon but what about all the special character use or otherwise? yeah words are fine but typing a story is much more different than code. I would see this as more of an ERGO solution while also being useful for programming if you could more easily have to do less hand contortion for different characters and symbols.
yeah the learning curve is much steeper with this thing than split keyboards... The only similarity to steno is that "chording" is used, but the underlying strategy is actually completely different
Stenotype is as older as common keyboards, more than 100 years. If we didn't replace the keyboard in that time, probably we will never replace it. We didn't even manage to change the layout from QWERTY. That aside, having new products like these is nice and I hope they keep improving. Right now I'm typing in a Kinesis 360 and I can't imagine living or coding again without this keyboard. So, I'm all in for new keyboards focused on being comfortable. Other use I can think, is for VR. Maybe having this system in a gauntlet or those exoskeleton hands.
Great points. There is indeed a massive barrier in getting something like this to be widely adopted - one which might not be surmountable. The Kinesis 360 is a great board! Re: VR- funny, the CC CEO just posted a video of using the CC2 standing up with the device attached to his clothing. The possibilities here are really interesting - VR, enabling mute people to speak, etc...
The issue with it is the fact that it's closed source tho (no QMK). Hence I'd still stick to something more basic with chording or go all in with a Svalboard at this point.
Yeah seems like many folks consider this a huge factor. I personally don't care at all. As long as there are no bugs and the dev team can keep up with the features people want, I'm good with it being closed source. But that's just me.
@@codetothemoon Well, what if you invest significant time to learn it and than the device gets broken and the company is no longer around? Super risky imo
oof didnt know that.. because what if you have a specific limitation and looking at this as an ERGO item; like if youre literally missing a finger or have limited mobility and want to move different keys or combinations around then you'd certainly be screwed right?
I got a charachorder at essentially the same time as you. For me, if it is significantly more ergonomic (which I believe it is), I would be happy with just matching my standard keyboard speed for coding. That said, I definitely want to reach 200+ WPM with chording standard text. That just sounds awesome. I'm hoping that within a few months I'll be typing at 80wpm with the charachorder (without chording) ...we shall see. I definitely am a bit worried about layout. Would kinda suck to get good at typing with the default layout only to later learn it is really important to change for it to be good for coding. Don't worried about moving symbols around, but am worried about moving letters around.
nice! I share your concerns about layout. right now I am sticking to as "close to default as possible", hoping all I need to do is add developer-specific special characters to the "inward" presses of the sticks, which are unbound by default. we'll see if that pans out... Definitely report back on how your journey is going!
Speed in coding isn't about typing quickly - it completely misses the point. Programming requires careful thought, problem-solving, and attention to detail. If you think raw typing speed is what matters, you're setting yourself up to be outpaced by AI tools. What truly counts is writing quality, maintainable code.
I don't think this is a zero-sum thing - of course the things you mention matter, but typing quickly can help too. It seems like being able to convey things to the computer quickly can potentially reduce cognitive load. Also, you still need to type in order to prompt said AI right?
This is a fancy derivation of the keyboards used by court stenographers for recording legal proceedings. Makes perfect sense for wordy tasks, but programming? Not entirely sure.
CharaChorder is similar to steno in that they both provide a means of typing entire words using chords, but the way they approach it is actually completely different. But yeah, not entirely sure yet how useful chording will be for programming. The ergonomics of the design is still very relevant though.
I've been super interested in this keyboard for a long time, I look forward to your updates on this. Are you going to get one of the Master Forges if you end up liking the CharaChorder?
I don't have immediate plans to get a Master Forge, but if I do wind up deciding this is a "rest of my life" thing, I'll probably wind up with one. That said, I don't feel like I "need" one - CC2 seems great so far
i have a very similar design. people are talking about 200 wpm. but this family of layouts shoudl get a normal typing rate of 2000 to 4000 wpm. or rather similar to but slightly faster than human speech. something around 4x to 5x human speech.
you mean to say you built a device like this? I think the brain would become a significant bottleneck long before speeds of 2k wpm. I believe 200 wpm is already faster than human speech, which I believe averages around 120-150wpm.
i don't think it is objectively better - though I'm sure some will prefer it. It seems like one downside is, as you mention, symbols. Another is that the speed upper bound might be a bit lower with voice dictation - average human talking speed is 120-150 wpm. Also, interacting with the computer means everyone around you gets to hear exactly what you are doing. That said, the learning curve for voice dictation is nearly zero compared to the years required for CC 😎
I like your passion here ^^ Though I was typing exclusively on my laptop keyboard for more than 10y. And if I get a separate keyboard soon, it would be a 20$ one as well. If I can type my 60 word/min, that is more than enough for anything I will ever need.
I am interested in the cc2 for programming, however I have ZERO interest in chording. Seems to me it would just get in the way of programming key words and general vim motions. Also 186 wpm with 73% accuracy is not something to strive for. Hopefully those other high scores mentioned at least are at 99-100% accuracy.
Understandable. I think the thing still has value even without chording. Re: accuracy, i think monkeytype isn’t accurate when using chords because of the way the device works (sometimes it sends characters to the computer and then immediately deletes them, which monkeytype counts as an error)
@@ShadowDrakken The only similarity between CharaChorder and those devices is that they aim to minimize finger movement. Other than that they are completely different.
I originally had a segment in the video comparing it to voice dictation, but wound up removing it from the final cut because I realized I'm not familiar enough with coding via voice dictation. Seems like some folks swear by it...
19 часов назад
@codetothemoon I can barely get voice recognition to accurately enough capture natural language. Both in German (which is my native tongue) or English, and I'm rather proficient. Maybe 90-95%? Not good enough, esp for the homonyms that it can't infer from context. For coding ... Maybe if it learned over time for me specifically? That'd certainly be a worthwhile video! There's even some coding languages optimized for voice input, if you're so inclined.
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As a developer I have never felt like my typing speed has held me back. Not sure if typing at 180wpm would really change anything.
I kind of agree. Remains to be seen how it affects coding itself. The sad reality for many of us is that we spend a ton of time answering emails, messages and creating design documents 😭
Even if it doesn't speed up coding itself much, maybe there's a case to be made that it can allow you to spend less time on other stuff and more time coding...
People say stuff like this but I think if they were forced type at half their speed they would say something else. It's just status quo bias at work.
Do you edit using the mouse a lot or do you use vim type approach or somewhere in between
@@nafg613 vim motions
With a decent IDE typing speed isn't a limitation because you are only typing partial words or phrases anyway. I haven't experienced typing speed being the bottleneck in a very long time.
For me the question is... it's probably designed for typing english words, but does that translate into programming?
you're right. luckily many reserved words in programming are already english words - match, switch, for, etc. But for the abbreviated words that aren't - var, fn, struct, etc - you can easily add chords for those as well.
But how can it handle variable/function names, like camel case or snake case?
I've been programming for 25 years and never the speed of typing was a limiting factor for me.
@@z33d6 you either type very fast or think very slow 😄
@@codetothemoon but what about all the special character use or otherwise? yeah words are fine but typing a story is much more different than code.
I would see this as more of an ERGO solution while also being useful for programming if you could more easily have to do less hand contortion for different characters and symbols.
I already struggle to learn a split keyboard this is a whole new level lol. This seems similar to what stenographers use.
yeah the learning curve is much steeper with this thing than split keyboards... The only similarity to steno is that "chording" is used, but the underlying strategy is actually completely different
Stenotype is as older as common keyboards, more than 100 years. If we didn't replace the keyboard in that time, probably we will never replace it. We didn't even manage to change the layout from QWERTY.
That aside, having new products like these is nice and I hope they keep improving. Right now I'm typing in a Kinesis 360 and I can't imagine living or coding again without this keyboard. So, I'm all in for new keyboards focused on being comfortable.
Other use I can think, is for VR. Maybe having this system in a gauntlet or those exoskeleton hands.
Great points. There is indeed a massive barrier in getting something like this to be widely adopted - one which might not be surmountable. The Kinesis 360 is a great board!
Re: VR- funny, the CC CEO just posted a video of using the CC2 standing up with the device attached to his clothing. The possibilities here are really interesting - VR, enabling mute people to speak, etc...
Sadly you didn't demonstrate how coding worked with this device.. as the title indicated..
That's the only thing I'm looking for
sorry about that! I am evaluating it for the purposes of coding, really hard to actually demo coding when I barely have a handle on the letter layout
The issue with it is the fact that it's closed source tho (no QMK).
Hence I'd still stick to something more basic with chording or go all in with a Svalboard at this point.
Yeah seems like many folks consider this a huge factor. I personally don't care at all. As long as there are no bugs and the dev team can keep up with the features people want, I'm good with it being closed source. But that's just me.
@@codetothemoon Well, what if you invest significant time to learn it and than the device gets broken and the company is no longer around? Super risky imo
oof didnt know that.. because what if you have a specific limitation and looking at this as an ERGO item; like if youre literally missing a finger or have limited mobility and want to move different keys or combinations around then you'd certainly be screwed right?
The german autotranslated title is extremely cursed on this one xD Roughly translates to "Strange 5-dimensional 'Key'-Device for encryption"
LOL oh dear.. thanks for letting me know, that's kind of hilarious
Stick with it, a year from now if you get to 200WPM, I will definitely buy it.
thanks - highly doubt I'll be there after 1 year but we'll see. will be pretty happy if I simply match my qwerty speed after 1 year
Use it to code and let us know if it improved your workflows. As developers, we're not exactly writing novels
No but we are writing design docs 😎
I got a charachorder at essentially the same time as you. For me, if it is significantly more ergonomic (which I believe it is), I would be happy with just matching my standard keyboard speed for coding. That said, I definitely want to reach 200+ WPM with chording standard text. That just sounds awesome. I'm hoping that within a few months I'll be typing at 80wpm with the charachorder (without chording) ...we shall see.
I definitely am a bit worried about layout. Would kinda suck to get good at typing with the default layout only to later learn it is really important to change for it to be good for coding. Don't worried about moving symbols around, but am worried about moving letters around.
nice! I share your concerns about layout. right now I am sticking to as "close to default as possible", hoping all I need to do is add developer-specific special characters to the "inward" presses of the sticks, which are unbound by default. we'll see if that pans out... Definitely report back on how your journey is going!
Speed in coding isn't about typing quickly - it completely misses the point. Programming requires careful thought, problem-solving, and attention to detail. If you think raw typing speed is what matters, you're setting yourself up to be outpaced by AI tools. What truly counts is writing quality, maintainable code.
I don't think this is a zero-sum thing - of course the things you mention matter, but typing quickly can help too. It seems like being able to convey things to the computer quickly can potentially reduce cognitive load. Also, you still need to type in order to prompt said AI right?
This is a fancy derivation of the keyboards used by court stenographers for recording legal proceedings. Makes perfect sense for wordy tasks, but programming? Not entirely sure.
CharaChorder is similar to steno in that they both provide a means of typing entire words using chords, but the way they approach it is actually completely different. But yeah, not entirely sure yet how useful chording will be for programming. The ergonomics of the design is still very relevant though.
Great video! Let us know if there's anything we can do to help you on your journey to type at the speed of thought 😄
thank you!
Great, now I can make 10 times the coding errors because I forgot a closed bracket on line 42069 and all the comments say "Fix this later".
exactly!
I've been super interested in this keyboard for a long time, I look forward to your updates on this. Are you going to get one of the Master Forges if you end up liking the CharaChorder?
I don't have immediate plans to get a Master Forge, but if I do wind up deciding this is a "rest of my life" thing, I'll probably wind up with one. That said, I don't feel like I "need" one - CC2 seems great so far
I wanna see more people try these little Alien invention!! So Awesome.
there seems to be a modest but growing group of folks who use it. we'll see how things progress!
i have a very similar design. people are talking about 200 wpm. but this family of layouts shoudl get a normal typing rate of 2000 to 4000 wpm. or rather similar to but slightly faster than human speech. something around 4x to 5x human speech.
you mean to say you built a device like this? I think the brain would become a significant bottleneck long before speeds of 2k wpm. I believe 200 wpm is already faster than human speech, which I believe averages around 120-150wpm.
how does camel,pascal,snake casing work
great question - I don't think there is any special support for this, but I could be wrong
for typing words voice is better anyways ( see talon voice ), the challenge is in symbols and such
i don't think it is objectively better - though I'm sure some will prefer it. It seems like one downside is, as you mention, symbols. Another is that the speed upper bound might be a bit lower with voice dictation - average human talking speed is 120-150 wpm. Also, interacting with the computer means everyone around you gets to hear exactly what you are doing. That said, the learning curve for voice dictation is nearly zero compared to the years required for CC 😎
I like your passion here ^^
Though I was typing exclusively on my laptop keyboard for more than 10y. And if I get a separate keyboard soon, it would be a 20$ one as well. If I can type my 60 word/min, that is more than enough for anything I will ever need.
I am interested in the cc2 for programming, however I have ZERO interest in chording. Seems to me it would just get in the way of programming key words and general vim motions. Also 186 wpm with 73% accuracy is not something to strive for. Hopefully those other high scores mentioned at least are at 99-100% accuracy.
Understandable. I think the thing still has value even without chording. Re: accuracy, i think monkeytype isn’t accurate when using chords because of the way the device works (sometimes it sends characters to the computer and then immediately deletes them, which monkeytype counts as an error)
the problem is: we dont need to type at a speed of thought)
you're right - nobody needs to 😎
This device is wild! Not to miss the focus of the video too much, but what is the "traditional" keyboard you showed?
The one I'm waving around is a Womier SK71 - absolutely fantastic value for the price amzn.to/3PTOwNN
What I am interested in is chords + AI assistant for code
I agree that the combination of chording and AI assistance seems extremely promising!
Make it 100% wireless
This would be a great feature. I personally hardwire everything, but I also envy those with ultra clean wire-free desks 😎
if this thing had tenting it would be literal perfection 😩
Svalboard when? :D
would love to try one, but i don't have immediate plans to purchase one
This looks like a jankier version of half a dozen existing devices that use the exact same 5 position key strokes
what are these other devices? I was under the impression this thing was pretty unique.
@@codetothemoon Datahand is a line of keyboards that this is a clone of, but there's also the Azeron and the lalboard
@@ShadowDrakken The only similarity between CharaChorder and those devices is that they aim to minimize finger movement. Other than that they are completely different.
Just need a keyboard we can type faster then speed of light 😆
i agree that would be nice!
I've been eyeing that for years. I think voice input will become reliable before I'd learn to master the characorder 😂
I originally had a segment in the video comparing it to voice dictation, but wound up removing it from the final cut because I realized I'm not familiar enough with coding via voice dictation. Seems like some folks swear by it...
@codetothemoon I can barely get voice recognition to accurately enough capture natural language. Both in German (which is my native tongue) or English, and I'm rather proficient. Maybe 90-95%? Not good enough, esp for the homonyms that it can't infer from context.
For coding ... Maybe if it learned over time for me specifically?
That'd certainly be a worthwhile video! There's even some coding languages optimized for voice input, if you're so inclined.
🙄
meh?