I too had a long period where I went exploring any unfamiliar repertoire I could lay my hands on, and bypassed the big names. This led to marvellous discoveries like Tubin, Pettersson, Kokkonen, Berwald and many others. Only later did I get more into the Beethovens, Schuberts and Mozarts of this world, and came to love them dearly as well. Much enjoyment is to be had from either!
I was in an art museum recently, and the following happened on multiple occasions: I’d be in a room, by myself, looking at a picture. Nothing famous or even particularly “great” - just something that interested me. People would filter in and immediately stand behind me, looking at the same painting. Taking photographs. Reading the label on the wall. Over and over this happened. “He’s been looking at that painting for a long time, so it must be important!” This is just human nature. I think part of the problem is that classical music (like art, or wine) is an inexhaustible subject. You’ll never know everything - and that gives people an instant inferiority complex. To relieve their anxiety, they cleave to what they already know, or what everyone else is doing. (Or join one of the “cults.”) I sometimes have to remind myself that I’ll never know every piece of music the way I know the Brahms symphonies. And that’s okay: I give myself permission to enjoy something new without feeling like I have to listen to everything else the person wrote, or memorize the score.
I totally agree, it's a bit frustrating! When I'm in the car with my dad I occasionally try to slip in something outside of the very narrow canon (even from known composers like Dvořák's 7th) but he never cares much for them and would rather listen to The Four Seasons for the billionth time. I'm a young classical music enthusiast and your videos have really expanded my horizons much to my listening benefit - thanks a lot Dave!
I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as most of those who comment on this channel, but I've learned to appreciate composers and works other than the big names. I'd never heard of Myaskovsky until about 15 years ago, when I saw a CD of his 24th and 25th symphonies at the public library. I decided to give it a listen, and liked both works. There are several RUclips channels that post works by lesser-known composers that are well worth listening to.
As someone who is relatively new to collecting classical music, I actually really enjoy finding good music outside of the canon. Actually, that’s one thing I really love about your channel: you’ve introduced me to many composers and even music by more “standard-canon” composers that I otherwise might not have found (Bax, Magnard, Roussel, Casella, and on and on). I just enjoy both the standard canon and stuff outside of it. One thing that has made it easier to not only find a good recording, but also to find lesser-known repertoire I might like, is that I can go on iTunes or something similar and hear a 30-90 second sample of each track. I use that option a lot to determine which recording of something I might want to purchase. But I also use it to sample a new composer, or a composer’s less-standard output.
I am fortunate to be a member of a decent community orchestra whose conductor is very open-minded to lesser-known repertoire. In the past few years we've played symphonies by Beach, Chadwick, Glazunov, Kalinninkov and the less popular ones of Dvorak, Tchaikovksy and others. Suites by French composers hardly anyone knows. It hasn't driven the audiences away either. After the Glazunov 4th I had one woman come up to me and say "that was wonderful! Why haven't I ever heard it before?" Of course every concert with obscure music is balanced with standard rep, but it's gratifying to know that people will give the forgotten music a chance.
The way you state being PO'd by people who can't move beyond the standard core in classical is kind of how I get in the world of jazz. Every jazz collector on RUclips ultra fixates on Miles Davis, Coltrane, Brubeck, Getz and the like and I feel like screaming "there is jazz being made right now that is as good or better than anything they did - bloody talk about it for a change!" instead of the same 60-year-old records.
Two words: Name Recognition. It's the perpetual bane of lesser known artists, whatever the genre. It probably will remain so, though RUclips has an incredible wealth of music, including every obscure composer Dave ever mentions (much to his credit). Unfortunately, it's only the devotees of a genre that seek them out.
I've come to know and appreciate lots of good music because of your dedication to bringing unknown or lesser known works and composers to our attention. Thank you so much for exposing me to Atterberg, Lloyd, Bax, Simpson, and so many others.
Hi Dave! Truly interesting issue. There is another additional problem that you somehow outlined, which are those works by major composers which are generally forgotten: most of Dvorak's operas, first three Tchaikovsky symphonies, much of Korsakov apart from Scheherazade, Haydn's operas... They never entered the repertory and it does not seem they would do so. This brings me to another thought. The most valuable legacy of HIP was the rediscovering of lost masters from the Baroque period, some of them entering the common repertory, such as Vivaldi. But, and this is a big "but", there are other composers which are always undermined, like those works from major composers which I mentioned before. I call them the "perpetual losers": they don't have the attention they deserve, neither within the traditional repertory, nor from the HIP movement. These are the likes of Meyerbeer, Cimarosa, Paisiello, Boccherini... I think Meyerbeer is the best example: a truly great composer of his time, and condemned to almost total oblivion by interpreters and recorders alike. And, now, in a period obsessed with historical rediscovering, it paradoxically seems that there's no interest whatsoever in him. Another paradox: although I find the efforts to promote forgotten women composers thrilling and necessary, it is funny to see how record labels get their hands into it, while Meyerbeer, or other major composers lay still in darkness. What about a collection of videos on those "perpetual losers"? 😉
If I only limited my listening to classical music I suspect I'd be far more adventurous in terms of venturing outside the standard repertoire. I've done that some and found "lesser-known" (relatively compared to the BIG names) favorites like Schnittke and Hummel, but it does take a lot of time to sift through the music of unknown composers in hopes of finding those gems that do stand with the best of the canon. In pop music or jazz it's a bit easier if only because most songs/pieces are not usually very long and, at least for me, it's easier to tell pretty soon whether or not I like it. With classical I generally find I have to sit with something for a bit and give it multiple listens to make up my mind. It's always a hard proposition to encourage people to spend that time exploring and discovering stuff outside the canon when the canon already could provide a lifetime of inexhaustible great music for all but the most hardcore listeners.
Luckily, we have recording labels like Naxos, cpo, Lyrita, Tactus, Toccata Classics, and so many more!, which take the risk and cost to provide us --- I mean: Those few who are REALLY interested in the MUSIC, not just in the names -- with all the great stuff out there! :) I cannot thank them enough for broadening my musical horizon -- being a very constipated "3B's" listener when I started with classical music. So: I am sooo thankful for all the GREAT core repertoire to feel at home with, and sooo thankful for all the GREAT other stuff to discover and love!
I actually follow your series exactly because you’re so good at bringing unfortunately neglected composers, bodies of music, performers, and recordings to my attention. I feel like I’ve canvassed the ‘canon’ pretty well but, especially with the streaming services, I’ve been able to significantly expand my listening repertoire due, to a great extent, to your good efforts. I also very much like that you give fairly balanced critical attention to works, performances, and recording quality. Keep up your fine efforts - I generally begin my day with coffee, the NYT, and your latest postings. Thanks for that as well!
It's an interesting discussion and the points you raised surprised me. I really thought people were more diversified in their listening. In my case, it did not even required a conscious effort. As a student with very little money, I started with the box sets that were around circa 2005-2010: Harmonia Mundi Sacred Music box, Decca Analogue, Philips Original Jackets, Living Stereo...full of discoveries! But then, almost everything was new to me and I had very little biases. None of my friends listened to classical and the repertoire that sounded familiar was that from the Fantasia movie (Beethoven 6th, Dukas Sourcerer's apprentice, etc) and some pieces featured in classic cartoons (Brahms Hungarian Dances, Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No.2, Rossini Guillaume Tell Overture, etc).
I teach college-level music appreciation to high school students, and I expose them to quite a bit of music from the different "eras" of western music. For example, for the Baroque, yes, we do Vivaldi, Bach, and Handel, but also Purcell, Rameau, Scarlatti, even Zelenka. And in my experience, my students, most of whom are not musicians, will pick the "Big Three" of Vivaldi, Bach, or Handel, almost every time, even if I give equal weight to the others. The same is true for other eras as well. They all love Beethoven, shrug their shoulders at Schumann and Mendelssohn, are divided about Berlioz and Wagner, and "mostly" respect Brahms...all this is to say that young people tend to gravitate to the "standards" even when I don't try to lead them there intentionally. Could it be that they have already "heard of them" and therefore have a pre-conceived notion of greatness, sure....but the facts remain as you say.
When I was a student in the late 1970's, I discovered that the university library had a large collection of classical music. My friends mostly weren't interested, but for me this was a whole new world to explore. Racks of LP covers to choose from. The music was copied onto cassette tapes. Amongst the LP's were similar sized pieces of card with a grainy A4 photocopy glued in place. Initially I ignored them, and what I discovered, was that those black and white photocopies were recordings from French Radio, and amongst them was a lot of 20th C neoclassical works. Poulenc, Milhaud, etc. and WOW, was that refreshing! One of the most significant aspects of classical music is it's wonderful diversity, there is something for every mood, and for me that is really important. There is even music to sleep to ... OH Yes Dave, your "favourite" composer, Max Richter, has a album of sleep music. I did have it, before one of my insomniac friends stole it, but I can report that it actually does work!
This channel has really opened me up to new stuff, which I'm very grateful for. I think the idea of contrast is really spot on, i.e., that listening to new/unknown classical music can really give one perspective on the "greats". Nothing exists in a vacuum, imagine trying to admire a beautiful mountain without the context of the equally beautiful sky, or ocean, or perhaps the sun setting behind it, or... well, you get the idea.
Familiarity is comfortable. So I can understand how people only want to stay with the familiarity. Great music takes work to become familiar with it. Some listeners don't want to put in the effort to learn new works. I introduce works to my friend who is naturally curious about works he may not know and responds positively.
Thank you very, very much for "banging your head", Dave! It´s sadly a Sisyphos-job you are doing, but we could at least dream of that the wall would break one day. All the wonderful music out there is within reach for everone who dares to step out of his/her comfort-zone. I think it´s even worse when it comes to live performances. When listening to streamed music everything is at least available, but in the concert halls all that music simply isn´t there, you have to long for it in vain. All there is is the usual stuff and a few, duty bound, first performances of new music.
Thanks to you, Dave, I have tried a lot of "new to me" music and performers. It's like ordering carry out Chinese food. You tend to order the same dinner for fear of not liking the new dinner you should try.
Well I hold you to account for my discoveries! When I first started listening to your channel back in 2020, during the days of Covid isolation, I needed entertainment to keep my "American" sanity (Is there even such a thing?) out here in New Zealand. I wanted to try some new things, although my decided preference is for symphonic/concerti in the Romantic style. Listening to your channel, and also finding that the Apple Music monthly fee is far less than what I was spending, I have substantially increased my listening space. I already had a fondness for Sibelius and Dvorak, but you helped me deepen that into appreciation. A host of others, including Americans, are now part of my music library. So I think the streaming services and your channel have helped evangelize the "infrequents" and get them to be recognized, if not more frequently heard due to daily constraints. Thanks!
What a great rant. I tend to have the other problem, I spend a lot of time in the "long tail" of classical music, but tend to be content with one version of the major canonical works: Karjan's 60s cycle of Beethoven; Bernstein's Brahms cycle; Kempf's piano sonatas. Never really got the taste for listening to multiple different performances. Seemed like a marginal way of spending time compared to listening to something new
Wagner sold so-so? When Culshaw was recording Rheingold (least popular installment of the Ring), Legge told him "beautiful work but you won't sell 50 copies." But it sold like hotcakes. Probably more than any given Boheme or Carmen. Build it; make it; sell it right and they will come. What I'm listening to lately is the Supraphon box of the complete Smetana operas. They are all chock full of fascinating, stirring, delightful, dramatic music. Will the Met ever do Dalibor or the Two Widows? Probably not, but I don't see how any fan of recorded opera can enjoy Bartered Bride and then stop there. But then many classical fans hear The Moldau and never go on to hear the rest of Ma Vlast. The same goes for Handel's Messiah, one of the top ten annual hits. But how anyone can hear it year in and year out and stop there, never hearing Handel's other equally great, and in some ways even greater, oratorios is something I can't understand. One example of an organization that markets "product" well and gets people interested in rarities is Opera Rara. They go beyond the bel canto top ten and let people know that there are works by Mercadante, Ricci, etc that are really terrific. This channel on RUclips does a lot to open ears to new things and performances. I've discovered a lot here. I'd also commrnend classical FM stations like our local KUAT that programs off the beaten track works in amongst the warhorses. I've been at this classical music stuff since the 1960s but I turn on KUAT and hear intriguing unknown works all the time. Have a look at their playlist for any given day online. You'll see what I mean. (Their programming for holidays and such is especially ingenious.)
The three Qs work nicely: Qualliotine, Quantz, and Quilter. I have no clue who any of them are, but they are the only three composers with Q surnames listed in the incomparable Classics Today digest.
It's so difficult since there is so much great music out there. I have listening to a lot of fantastic chamber music lately; which is generally ignored, but especially from less well-known composers like Faure, Franck, or Chaussen. Then you have big names whose chamber music is ignored like Saint-Saens and (especially) Dvorak. Everyone would just love chamber works by Dvorak (like his 3rd String Quintet, 2nd Piano Quartet, etc.) if they heard them. I was thinking that someone should arrange them for orchestra so people would hear them more often. But then I realized that Dvorak scored them so well, with such a full sound, that they don't need orchestration.
Yes indeed, there are a lot of unfamiliar gems out there along with the more well known ones. For example, Gian Carlo Menotti's Piano and Violin Concerti. Serge Koussevitzky's Double Bass Concerto & Reinhold Gliere's Harp Concerto & Concerto for Coloratura Soprano. Dig deep, you'll never know what you'll find. THANKS DAVE.
I have spent a lot of time listening to many of the composers you have talked about the last four years. I am willing to take risks, and loves to be challenged by you, Mr Hurwitz. Best wishes Fred from Kristianstad. 😊
Having worked in a lot of workshops over the decades, I can confirm that most people are entirely happy and content to listen to the same 50 or so classic rock songs for their entire lives. Mind numbing...
True but in the UK Classic fm is here to cure you of that by concentrating on a limited range within the quite limited range. I love the surprise of the “new” old classic music.
A very intriguing topic. I think the time requirement is relevant and yet this doesn’t prevent anyone with, say a love of reading, from continually buying new novels (which require much more time investment for a similar cost to a CD). One problem may be that playing music is an imposition on other householders. Another problem I think is that people simply don’t know where to start and so-called “classical” music is increasingly marginalised in our societies. A particularly bizarre and inexplicable phenomenon (I agree with you here) is people who know some core repertoire, say 50 works or so - and would describe themselves as music-lovers - but appear uninterested in exploring unfamiliar composers. I’d argue that such exploration keeps music fresh in the same way as continually reading new novels is preferable to limiting oneself to a canon of say 50 core novels. Your channel is particularly valuable in drawing people’s attention to unfamiliar but deserving repertoire.
All true, but you’ve also given disproportionate attention to the “canonical” composers on your channel. In fact, the reverse-alphabetized overflow room series will invariably favor canonical composers over non-canonical ones because, as you say here, the canonical composers are more recorded and easier to sell. If you want to promote non-canon works, consider dedicating one of your three daily videos to such composers. It would be much more valuable than a review of yet another Mahler or Bruckner recording.
I like to explore movie soundtracks. Some good music, some just background'ish. Interstellar soundtrack to me is jaw dropping, very captivating. Also, as you pointed out Halvorsen, Roussel and Glazunov! BTW the Glazunov Serebrier box set is back in stock on Amazon.
I met Mr. Farkas at about the time CDs came out and bought a Jaime Aragall disc---he said he was a lot better than Di Stefano his brother-in-law. I am so glad Leon Botstein is around as he has introduced me to many obscure composers as you have too! Keep up the good work,Dave!
In the UK (if not in the US) this “constipated canon” malarkey is made worse by snobbery. social and cultural. You are told as a child 😮that classical music is better socially & culturally than other music genres. And you genuinely love classical music & revere the people who encouraged you to love it, often during your teen years. So you take all the opinions &’prejudices of your mentors and stick to them like glue for the rest of your life. I was talking to a fellow music lover once & told him the Choir I was singing in, was rehearsing Gurrelieder by Schoenberg. His immediate reaction was “You poor man. Your chorusmaster is forcing you to sing that ugly dissonant Schoenberg music”. When I told him it was romantic & tuneful & “operatic” music he refused to believe me!
This is true for popular music as well, with the difference that the smash hits are mediocre or worse. My playlist consists of 3000 wonderful songs by 530 different artists, almost all of whose names would be unfamiliar to most people.
Somewhat tangential idea for a video: how and why the Zinman/Upshaw version of Gorecki’s Symphony of Sorrowful Songs became a phenomenon. Did it change the industry at all? What is its legacy?
I love opera, and on one hand I'm always complaining that houses always program the same titles, but on the other hand the core repertory is maybe 70 to 100 operas. And that's a lot of time. Just the ten major Wagner works are 34 CDs.
Ever since downloading Spotify, I have been listening to more and more obscure music. Perhaps streaming platforms will allow more listeners the chance to sample unusual music without risking their money on cds or live performances. If so, maybe the inertia of the big-name-composers will weaken?
At the BSO, we'll have a week with all nine Beethoven symphonies with Nelsons - whose Vienna Phil Beethocen cycle is forgettable. Later in spring 2025, there will be a few Shostakovich concerts - I suspect they'll accompany the release of Nelsons' DG Shostakovich Box which includes the symphonies, concerts, and Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk. I happened to be at the BSO yesterday evening with friends, having pre-concert dinner in the Symphony Hall dining room. The music coming from the sound system: Richard Strauss' Nelsons BSO/GHO box. Oy!!😢
It feels like it has been Beethoven's 250th for like 10 years
I too had a long period where I went exploring any unfamiliar repertoire I could lay my hands on, and bypassed the big names. This led to marvellous discoveries like Tubin, Pettersson, Kokkonen, Berwald and many others. Only later did I get more into the Beethovens, Schuberts and Mozarts of this world, and came to love them dearly as well. Much enjoyment is to be had from either!
I was in an art museum recently, and the following happened on multiple occasions: I’d be in a room, by myself, looking at a picture. Nothing famous or even particularly “great” - just something that interested me. People would filter in and immediately stand behind me, looking at the same painting. Taking photographs. Reading the label on the wall. Over and over this happened. “He’s been looking at that painting for a long time, so it must be important!” This is just human nature.
I think part of the problem is that classical music (like art, or wine) is an inexhaustible subject. You’ll never know everything - and that gives people an instant inferiority complex. To relieve their anxiety, they cleave to what they already know, or what everyone else is doing. (Or join one of the “cults.”)
I sometimes have to remind myself that I’ll never know every piece of music the way I know the Brahms symphonies. And that’s okay: I give myself permission to enjoy something new without feeling like I have to listen to everything else the person wrote, or memorize the score.
I totally agree, it's a bit frustrating! When I'm in the car with my dad I occasionally try to slip in something outside of the very narrow canon (even from known composers like Dvořák's 7th) but he never cares much for them and would rather listen to The Four Seasons for the billionth time. I'm a young classical music enthusiast and your videos have really expanded my horizons much to my listening benefit - thanks a lot Dave!
That's pretty narrow alright. Dvorak's 7th was one of my favorites even as a kid.
I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as most of those who comment on this channel, but I've learned to appreciate composers and works other than the big names. I'd never heard of Myaskovsky until about 15 years ago, when I saw a CD of his 24th and 25th symphonies at the public library. I decided to give it a listen, and liked both works. There are several RUclips channels that post works by lesser-known composers that are well worth listening to.
As someone who is relatively new to collecting classical music, I actually really enjoy finding good music outside of the canon. Actually, that’s one thing I really love about your channel: you’ve introduced me to many composers and even music by more “standard-canon” composers that I otherwise might not have found (Bax, Magnard, Roussel, Casella, and on and on). I just enjoy both the standard canon and stuff outside of it. One thing that has made it easier to not only find a good recording, but also to find lesser-known repertoire I might like, is that I can go on iTunes or something similar and hear a 30-90 second sample of each track. I use that option a lot to determine which recording of something I might want to purchase. But I also use it to sample a new composer, or a composer’s less-standard output.
I am fortunate to be a member of a decent community orchestra whose conductor is very open-minded to lesser-known repertoire. In the past few years we've played symphonies by Beach, Chadwick, Glazunov, Kalinninkov and the less popular ones of Dvorak, Tchaikovksy and others. Suites by French composers hardly anyone knows. It hasn't driven the audiences away either. After the Glazunov 4th I had one woman come up to me and say "that was wonderful! Why haven't I ever heard it before?" Of course every concert with obscure music is balanced with standard rep, but it's gratifying to know that people will give the forgotten music a chance.
The way you state being PO'd by people who can't move beyond the standard core in classical is kind of how I get in the world of jazz. Every jazz collector on RUclips ultra fixates on Miles Davis, Coltrane, Brubeck, Getz and the like and I feel like screaming "there is jazz being made right now that is as good or better than anything they did - bloody talk about it for a change!" instead of the same 60-year-old records.
Two words: Name Recognition.
It's the perpetual bane of lesser known artists, whatever the genre. It probably will remain so, though RUclips has an incredible wealth of music, including every obscure composer Dave ever mentions (much to his credit). Unfortunately, it's only the devotees of a genre that seek them out.
I've come to know and appreciate lots of good music because of your dedication to bringing unknown or lesser known works and composers to our attention. Thank you so much for exposing me to Atterberg, Lloyd, Bax, Simpson, and so many others.
Hi Dave! Truly interesting issue.
There is another additional problem that you somehow outlined, which are those works by major composers which are generally forgotten: most of Dvorak's operas, first three Tchaikovsky symphonies, much of Korsakov apart from Scheherazade, Haydn's operas... They never entered the repertory and it does not seem they would do so.
This brings me to another thought. The most valuable legacy of HIP was the rediscovering of lost masters from the Baroque period, some of them entering the common repertory, such as Vivaldi.
But, and this is a big "but", there are other composers which are always undermined, like those works from major composers which I mentioned before. I call them the "perpetual losers": they don't have the attention they deserve, neither within the traditional repertory, nor from the HIP movement. These are the likes of Meyerbeer, Cimarosa, Paisiello, Boccherini...
I think Meyerbeer is the best example: a truly great composer of his time, and condemned to almost total oblivion by interpreters and recorders alike.
And, now, in a period obsessed with historical rediscovering, it paradoxically seems that there's no interest whatsoever in him. Another paradox: although I find the efforts to promote forgotten women composers thrilling and necessary, it is funny to see how record labels get their hands into it, while Meyerbeer, or other major composers lay still in darkness.
What about a collection of videos on those "perpetual losers"? 😉
If I only limited my listening to classical music I suspect I'd be far more adventurous in terms of venturing outside the standard repertoire. I've done that some and found "lesser-known" (relatively compared to the BIG names) favorites like Schnittke and Hummel, but it does take a lot of time to sift through the music of unknown composers in hopes of finding those gems that do stand with the best of the canon. In pop music or jazz it's a bit easier if only because most songs/pieces are not usually very long and, at least for me, it's easier to tell pretty soon whether or not I like it. With classical I generally find I have to sit with something for a bit and give it multiple listens to make up my mind. It's always a hard proposition to encourage people to spend that time exploring and discovering stuff outside the canon when the canon already could provide a lifetime of inexhaustible great music for all but the most hardcore listeners.
Luckily, we have recording labels like Naxos, cpo, Lyrita, Tactus, Toccata Classics, and so many more!, which take the risk and cost to provide us --- I mean: Those few who are REALLY interested in the MUSIC, not just in the names -- with all the great stuff out there! :)
I cannot thank them enough for broadening my musical horizon -- being a very constipated "3B's" listener when I started with classical music.
So: I am sooo thankful for all the GREAT core repertoire to feel at home with, and sooo thankful for all the GREAT other stuff to discover and love!
I actually follow your series exactly because you’re so good at bringing unfortunately neglected composers, bodies of music, performers, and recordings to my attention. I feel like I’ve canvassed the ‘canon’ pretty well but, especially with the streaming services, I’ve been able to significantly expand my listening repertoire due, to a great extent, to your good efforts. I also very much like that you give fairly balanced critical attention to works, performances, and recording quality. Keep up your fine efforts - I generally begin my day with coffee, the NYT, and your latest postings. Thanks for that as well!
It's an interesting discussion and the points you raised surprised me. I really thought people were more diversified in their listening. In my case, it did not even required a conscious effort. As a student with very little money, I started with the box sets that were around circa 2005-2010: Harmonia Mundi Sacred Music box, Decca Analogue, Philips Original Jackets, Living Stereo...full of discoveries! But then, almost everything was new to me and I had very little biases. None of my friends listened to classical and the repertoire that sounded familiar was that from the Fantasia movie (Beethoven 6th, Dukas Sourcerer's apprentice, etc) and some pieces featured in classic cartoons (Brahms Hungarian Dances, Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No.2, Rossini Guillaume Tell Overture, etc).
I teach college-level music appreciation to high school students, and I expose them to quite a bit of music from the different "eras" of western music. For example, for the Baroque, yes, we do Vivaldi, Bach, and Handel, but also Purcell, Rameau, Scarlatti, even Zelenka. And in my experience, my students, most of whom are not musicians, will pick the "Big Three" of Vivaldi, Bach, or Handel, almost every time, even if I give equal weight to the others. The same is true for other eras as well. They all love Beethoven, shrug their shoulders at Schumann and Mendelssohn, are divided about Berlioz and Wagner, and "mostly" respect Brahms...all this is to say that young people tend to gravitate to the "standards" even when I don't try to lead them there intentionally. Could it be that they have already "heard of them" and therefore have a pre-conceived notion of greatness, sure....but the facts remain as you say.
Oh, Zelenka! His masses are wonderful.
Thats why i love your essential list of composers X. So much to discover
When I was a student in the late 1970's, I discovered that the university library had a large collection of classical music. My friends mostly weren't interested, but for me this was a whole new world to explore. Racks of LP covers to choose from. The music was copied onto cassette tapes. Amongst the LP's were similar sized pieces of card with a grainy A4 photocopy glued in place. Initially I ignored them, and what I discovered, was that those black and white photocopies were recordings from French Radio, and amongst them was a lot of 20th C neoclassical works. Poulenc, Milhaud, etc. and WOW, was that refreshing!
One of the most significant aspects of classical music is it's wonderful diversity, there is something for every mood, and for me that is really important. There is even music to sleep to ... OH Yes Dave, your "favourite" composer, Max Richter, has a album of sleep music. I did have it, before one of my insomniac friends stole it, but I can report that it actually does work!
This channel has really opened me up to new stuff, which I'm very grateful for. I think the idea of contrast is really spot on, i.e., that listening to new/unknown classical music can really give one perspective on the "greats". Nothing exists in a vacuum, imagine trying to admire a beautiful mountain without the context of the equally beautiful sky, or ocean, or perhaps the sun setting behind it, or... well, you get the idea.
Familiarity is comfortable. So I can understand how people only want to stay with the familiarity. Great music takes work to become familiar with it. Some listeners don't want to put in the effort to learn new works. I introduce works to my friend who is naturally curious about works he may not know and responds positively.
Thank you very, very much for "banging your head", Dave! It´s sadly a Sisyphos-job you are doing, but we could at least dream of that the wall would break one day. All the wonderful music out there is within reach for everone who dares to step out of his/her comfort-zone.
I think it´s even worse when it comes to live performances. When listening to streamed music everything is at least available, but in the concert halls all that music simply isn´t there, you have to long for it in vain. All there is is the usual stuff and a few, duty bound, first performances of new music.
I have so much in the queue from Spotify, I'll be dead before I hear it all. That's a plus, as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks to you, Dave, I have tried a lot of "new to me" music and performers. It's like ordering carry out Chinese food. You tend to order the same dinner for fear of not liking the new dinner you should try.
Well I hold you to account for my discoveries! When I first started listening to your channel back in 2020, during the days of Covid isolation, I needed entertainment to keep my "American" sanity (Is there even such a thing?) out here in New Zealand. I wanted to try some new things, although my decided preference is for symphonic/concerti in the Romantic style. Listening to your channel, and also finding that the Apple Music monthly fee is far less than what I was spending, I have substantially increased my listening space. I already had a fondness for Sibelius and Dvorak, but you helped me deepen that into appreciation. A host of others, including Americans, are now part of my music library. So I think the streaming services and your channel have helped evangelize the "infrequents" and get them to be recognized, if not more frequently heard due to daily constraints. Thanks!
What a great rant. I tend to have the other problem, I spend a lot of time in the "long tail" of classical music, but tend to be content with one version of the major canonical works: Karjan's 60s cycle of Beethoven; Bernstein's Brahms cycle; Kempf's piano sonatas. Never really got the taste for listening to multiple different performances. Seemed like a marginal way of spending time compared to listening to something new
Wagner sold so-so? When Culshaw was recording Rheingold (least popular installment of the Ring), Legge told him "beautiful work but you won't sell 50 copies." But it sold like hotcakes. Probably more than any given Boheme or Carmen. Build it; make it; sell it right and they will come.
What I'm listening to lately is the Supraphon box of the complete Smetana operas. They are all chock full of fascinating, stirring, delightful, dramatic music. Will the Met ever do Dalibor or the Two Widows? Probably not, but I don't see how any fan of recorded opera can enjoy Bartered Bride and then stop there. But then many classical fans hear The Moldau and never go on to hear the rest of Ma Vlast.
The same goes for Handel's Messiah, one of the top ten annual hits. But how anyone can hear it year in and year out and stop there, never hearing Handel's other equally great, and in some ways even greater, oratorios is something I can't understand.
One example of an organization that markets "product" well and gets people interested in rarities is Opera Rara. They go beyond the bel canto top ten and let people know that there are works by Mercadante, Ricci, etc that are really terrific.
This channel on RUclips does a lot to open ears to new things and performances. I've discovered a lot here.
I'd also commrnend classical FM stations like our local KUAT that programs off the beaten track works in amongst the warhorses. I've been at this classical music stuff since the 1960s but I turn on KUAT and hear intriguing unknown works all the time. Have a look at their playlist for any given day online. You'll see what I mean. (Their programming for holidays and such is especially ingenious.)
The three Qs work nicely: Qualliotine, Quantz, and Quilter. I have no clue who any of them are, but they are the only three composers with Q surnames listed in the incomparable Classics Today digest.
It's so difficult since there is so much great music out there. I have listening to a lot of fantastic chamber music lately; which is generally ignored, but especially from less well-known composers like Faure, Franck, or Chaussen. Then you have big names whose chamber music is ignored like Saint-Saens and (especially) Dvorak. Everyone would just love chamber works by Dvorak (like his 3rd String Quintet, 2nd Piano Quartet, etc.) if they heard them. I was thinking that someone should arrange them for orchestra so people would hear them more often. But then I realized that Dvorak scored them so well, with such a full sound, that they don't need orchestration.
Yes indeed, there are a lot of unfamiliar gems out there along with the more well known ones. For example, Gian Carlo Menotti's Piano and Violin Concerti. Serge Koussevitzky's Double Bass Concerto & Reinhold Gliere's Harp Concerto & Concerto for Coloratura Soprano. Dig deep, you'll never know what you'll find. THANKS DAVE.
People have comfort zones in everything & that’s the problem.
I have spent a lot of time listening to many of the composers you have talked about the last four years. I am willing to take risks, and loves to be challenged by you, Mr Hurwitz.
Best wishes Fred from Kristianstad. 😊
This goes some way to explaining why my local classical station plays Bach constantly (the 4th B!)
Well, Dave, you don't have to worry about ME. I don't limit myself to the three B's; I listen to Mozart too -- and Haydn!
Isn't this a general phenomenon that most people listen to a quite limited range of music?
Having worked in a lot of workshops over the decades, I can confirm that most people are entirely happy and content to listen to the same 50 or so classic rock songs for their entire lives. Mind numbing...
Yes, it is, but we're talking about people who claim to love listening to music.
True but in the UK Classic fm is here to cure you of that by concentrating on a limited range within the quite limited range.
I love the surprise of the “new” old classic music.
A very intriguing topic. I think the time requirement is relevant and yet this doesn’t prevent anyone with, say a love of reading, from continually buying new novels (which require much more time investment for a similar cost to a CD). One problem may be that playing music is an imposition on other householders. Another problem I think is that people simply don’t know where to start and so-called “classical” music is increasingly marginalised in our societies. A particularly bizarre and inexplicable phenomenon (I agree with you here) is people who know some core repertoire, say 50 works or so - and would describe themselves as music-lovers - but appear uninterested in exploring unfamiliar composers. I’d argue that such exploration keeps music fresh in the same way as continually reading new novels is preferable to limiting oneself to a canon of say 50 core novels. Your channel is particularly valuable in drawing people’s attention to unfamiliar but deserving repertoire.
All true, but you’ve also given disproportionate attention to the “canonical” composers on your channel. In fact, the reverse-alphabetized overflow room series will invariably favor canonical composers over non-canonical ones because, as you say here, the canonical composers are more recorded and easier to sell.
If you want to promote non-canon works, consider dedicating one of your three daily videos to such composers. It would be much more valuable than a review of yet another Mahler or Bruckner recording.
The 3 B‘s? Sure! Bach, Beethoven, Bozart. Who else?
Bruckner?
Boulez
Bach1 Bach2 Bach3
Beethoven, Bach &.....Backstreet boys?
Clemente symphonies..a treat
Wonderful video!
I like to explore movie soundtracks. Some good music, some just background'ish. Interstellar soundtrack to me is jaw dropping, very captivating. Also, as you pointed out Halvorsen, Roussel and Glazunov! BTW the Glazunov Serebrier box set is back in stock on Amazon.
I met Mr. Farkas at about the time CDs came out and bought a Jaime Aragall disc---he said he was a lot better than Di Stefano his brother-in-law. I am so glad Leon Botstein is around as he has introduced me to many obscure composers as you have too! Keep up the good work,Dave!
This topic applies to rock music as well. ✌️ Love this channel.
In the UK (if not in the US) this “constipated canon” malarkey is made worse by snobbery. social and cultural. You are told as a child 😮that classical music is better socially & culturally than other music genres. And you genuinely love classical music & revere the people who encouraged you to love it, often during your teen years. So you take all the opinions &’prejudices of your mentors and stick to them like glue for the rest of your life. I was talking to a fellow music lover once & told him the Choir I was singing in, was rehearsing Gurrelieder by Schoenberg. His immediate reaction was “You poor man. Your chorusmaster is forcing you to sing that ugly dissonant Schoenberg music”. When I told him it was romantic & tuneful & “operatic” music he refused to believe me!
This is true for popular music as well, with the difference that the smash hits are mediocre or worse. My playlist consists of 3000 wonderful songs by 530 different artists, almost all of whose names would be unfamiliar to most people.
Somewhat tangential idea for a video: how and why the Zinman/Upshaw version of Gorecki’s Symphony of Sorrowful Songs became a phenomenon. Did it change the industry at all? What is its legacy?
Very sane attitude.
I wouldn't mind hearing some of the music of Johan Gambolputty...................of Ulm.
I love opera, and on one hand I'm always complaining that houses always program the same titles, but on the other hand the core repertory is maybe 70 to 100 operas. And that's a lot of time. Just the ten major Wagner works are 34 CDs.
I am listening to Claudio Santoro's symphonies.
Before I watch the video, I assume you are referring to the "3 Bs" as Bax, Bartók and Borodin?
Ever since downloading Spotify, I have been listening to more and more obscure music. Perhaps streaming platforms will allow more listeners the chance to sample unusual music without risking their money on cds or live performances. If so, maybe the inertia of the big-name-composers will weaken?
The 3 Bs. That's Bach, Beethoven and... hang on... ? Mahler doesn't begin with an B.
Try these: Berlioz, Bruckner, Bartok
@@michaelpetkovich5058 Not too shoddy either.
The three Bs?
How about the six Ms:
Monteverdi
Mozart
Mendelssohn
Mahler
Martinu
Milhaud
At the BSO, we'll have a week with all nine Beethoven symphonies with Nelsons - whose Vienna Phil Beethocen cycle is forgettable. Later in spring 2025, there will be a few Shostakovich concerts - I suspect they'll accompany the release of Nelsons' DG Shostakovich Box which includes the symphonies, concerts, and Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk. I happened to be at the BSO yesterday evening with friends, having pre-concert dinner in the Symphony Hall dining room. The music coming from the sound system: Richard Strauss' Nelsons BSO/GHO box. Oy!!😢