I was in a pseudo spiritual cult for three years (Word of faith/ NAR/ positive confession/ rituals) and Michael Horton and White Horse Inn has really helped me out of it and pointed me to the real gospel of Christ. Thank you WHI !
True to Mike's reputation, he laser-focuses on THE point of the problem: Adam was the first enthusiast. Rejecting autonomy begins with each soul saved by Christ, in repentance and humble gratitude. The Disneyfication of the christian religion needs to be called out, avoided, rejected and the true Gospel needs to be taught and defended. Entertainment products like The Chosen (industrial profiteering of Jesus) and the various New Apostolic Reformation gimmicks, portray mega-blasphemous autonomy at a whole other level. Thank you Lord, for Dr. Horton's tireless work and love for Your people and Your Word. In the midst of the perilous realm, we are blessed.🙏
Really fascinating, thank you for that excellent and thought provoking discussion - I wish there had been a discussion of some of the other approaches to Plato - Nietzsche, Strauss, and Vogelin to further the idea of what is going on with Plato in the modern world, I hope his book discusses it further.
@@solamediaorg Wonderful, I just ordered it and didn't realize it was going to be so massive - I thought that was a bit of joking about two more volumes! Can't wait to tear into this first volume.
@@solamediaorg I have been studying philosophy, theology (systematic and Biblical) for nearly 50 years (formally and informally). Mysticism, shamanism, existentialism has been an intense interest for many years. I was curious about Dr. Horton illustration of "the shaman". It seems that Paul certainly fulfills many of the characteristics he described. Ecstatic experience (Damascus road), retreated the Arabian desert (Galatians 1:17). Even in Acts we see Paul shaving his head "for the sake of an oath". Paul certainly fits the bill as a mystic. I did very much enjoy Dr. Horton's description of the thorough participation of Greek philosophy and culture in the NT writings. Many times folks (like Bultmann) tried to remove the Greek "mythological language" from the NT and retrieve the "message" (kerygma). This has always been a fool's errand. Thank you for this discussion. I enjoyed it greatly.
@@findingthereal9052 religion has to do with binding, such as connecting meaning to material. The modern way religion is referred to has more to do with institutions. An ancient temple and contemplation are connected, temple is even in contemplate.
In the way Horton defines it, or at least that is what I understand from what he explains: Spiritual, it is believing that God is the universe itself, and all we have to do is look inside ourselves to find it Religious, it is believing that the universe, and we, are an act of God's creation, and the way to find God is by coming out of us through service to others. That is, we need others, the body of Christ, the church, to reach God
@@huveja9799 that’s some of the issue I’m having. There is a no “thingness” to God that may be expressed through nature but not nature itself. If I said the spirit is what moves matter, would you be bothered by that? Spirit , wind and breath all originated with the same word.
@@TheDrb27 It doesn't bother me at all. In fact the soul is what animates matter, without a soul matter would be inert, even animals have a soul. Our difference with animals is that our soul is spiritual, and therefore survives death. But when we die we are incomplete, because we are not angels, who are pure spirit (not souls). We are body and soul, that's why we are going to resurrect and be complete again. The best expression of God in nature is ourselves, who were created in His image and likeness. Nature in itself, without man, is the work of God, and as such it reflects His creative power, but we cannot find God in nature, we only find Him loving our brothers and sisters, there God manifests himself ..
"To some extent modern scientific rationality is the offspring of a long, romantic, and quarrelsome relationship between Christianity and hermeticism." (41:25 mark)
The moment you see the world around you with the flow of everything that I learned from reading philosophy I studied the "WHY" because men still haven't asked half the population of the world of humans our perspective, faces and speech isn't seen much on movies, pictures and pictures such as U Tube.
I've always struggled with the lack of commitment to getting specific about God in AA. I kinda see it as a gateway drug to God and assume it doesn't get specific so as to get people in to first address the addiction and then they can decide from there what they want to do about the God question but I do find it disappointing many still don't progress past the Higher Power wishy washy definition and remain a spiritual but not religious person.
'Spiritual but not religious' to me is akin to God saying, "It IS Good that Man is alone." It's Adam without Eve. It's Christ without his bride. I don't experience an atomized type of anything in the world around me. Heck, I must 'bind together' (religion) these letters to form words to make up the sentences that make up the paragraph that gets this point across. I can't even explain a point to you without being religious. Religios simply makes more sense phenomalogically. I've been looking into this issue of atomiziation Michael talked about. I'm Catholic, but I still appreciate my reformed brothers like Michael Horton!
27:45 the term he’s looking for is “Philosophia Christi” “But the prince must be forearmed with an antidote, after this fashion he whom you are reading is a pagan; you who are reading, are a Christian. Although he speaks with authority on many subjects, yet he by no means gives an accurate picture of the good prince. Look out that you do not chance upon something in his works which you think you must therefore imitate directly. Measure everything by the Christian standard.” - Erasmus in ‘Institutio principis Christiani’
Well well well … I’m starting to understand the significance of Jordan Peterson’s church that he founded (apparently to become a marriage officiant - yeah right). He named it: “The Church of the Spirit of St. Joachim of Florence”.
“If each of us did everything we could do, and needed to do, we would have no need for a king. We're sovereign citizens.” - “And Away from Hell | Jordan Peterson's first speech at ARC 2023”
Carl Jung was the patron saint of spiritual agnosticism. Where you don't just disregard hallucinations and spiritual experiences while also keeping one foot in the ground. Im not too hostile against it.
The discrepancy may be between if you take into account the influx of immigration populations bringing their traditional beliefs with them that alters these statistics. Or if you look more narrowly at home-grown shifts in religious beliefs. I'd like to see data on whether *conversion* to Islam is occurring at a higher rate than this ubiquitous trend of people especially the newer generations falling into the wiccan-mystic-occult type self empowering phenomena
I'm rather surprised Dr. Horton thinks that the rejection of autonomy is the key to cultural shift in modern society. It's not that at all. Renewal (from a horizontal level) will be found in the ressourcement of the discipline of metaphysics and natural theology. The separation of matter and spirit under Kant's Idealism is the bugbear of our modern milieu. You can't confront autonomy until you first *prove* a se authority.
You said: "Renewal (from a horizontal level) will be found in the ressourcement of the discipline of metaphysics and natural theology.". This is an interesting comment. I have been pondering Horton's position in this interview. It seems he is trying to prune away the "spiritual but not religious" notions while maintaining the real relationship of Christianity with Greek philosophy, shamanism, mystic religions and fertility cults. I tend to think we should encourage this trend to go full tilt. Sure there will be many that will go into the silly superstitious stuff Horton has evoked. But I maintain that the current mainline Christianity (particularly Protestantism) has gotten away from any notion of Christian service or pastoral care and swapped it for money, power and sex. The protestant rejection of the mystic traditions and disciplines (including natural theology) has been the most severe weakness of Protestantism. Anything that will help prune away those corrupt lusts, I would support.
The other problem with Kant is that he tried to say that there are limits to knowledge. How can we ever know that? The assertion has made people apathetic about trying. Rudolf Steiner took him on in his book, 'Philosophy of Freedom', and asserted that the nurturing of Intuition is the right pathway for modern minds.
Now connect autonomy with the gospel and teach us how to communicate that with our lost family/friends/neighbors/community. Intellectual stuff is great, but lets learn to be practical for the every day.
It's a good question. Assuming you are talking about the lost ones you are about are specifically on this journey of spiritual but not religious: A starting point could be focusing on this particular blending of autonomy and spirituality -- it seems to be a means of approaching the divine on either one's own terms which are based on one's own wishful thinking and self-will; or by committing to some how-to steps of ritual, lifestyle changes, and self righteous accomplishments as instructed by some guru or spiritual influencer. Even physical health influencers on social media these days promote this pathway of being healthy and natural is a spiritual practice, a means of communing with the divine found in sacred nature. We just have to cleanse ourselves of modern toxins and behaviors to tap in to be who we were meant to be. Point out the problems with that, how assuming the divine is a part of creation, and is approachable by some form of self effort, and that if they are attempting to reverse a falling out with the divine that means something in the past went terribly wrong. How do they know this is the way to fix it? What is the moral nature of a divine being who is ready to heighten one's experiences and consciousness as a response to some self help guidelines? If God is part of nature instead of overseeing nature, what does that say about God if nature often seems hazardous and indifferent to our own self will? Just some initial thoughts
@@normanmilquetoast1 Oh really? Ever hear of Alvin Plantinga? Francis Collins? Neither atheism nor theism has a lock on intellect nor stupidity. You will find intelligent people, and stupid people in both camps. In just about equal percentages.
@@manager0175 I have found that it's nearly impossible to find atheists willing to engage their ideas beyond repeating memes on social media. I'd love to discuss. When are you available?
Our lord knows his church and it's made up of many people's of different places for he is the head and maybe we get caught up with labels and forget this
Number 1 reason for false cults, because man is self centered . God created us for worship , it is in our DNA and so is sin. When we take Christ our King out of everything,we head down a road to find our utopia that cannot exist.
You said: "Number 1 reason for false cults, because man is self centered ". Horton is a Calvinist. Calvinists believe God has chosen the "elect" to be redeemed and the rest are condemned from the foundation of the world. Every Calvinists believes they are among the "elect". Is there anything more "self centered" than saying: "I am among God's elect. God has chosen me from the foundation of the world to be redeemed."?
I’m no scholar, but reformed dudes seem a little odd “interior intimo meo et superior summo meo” (“higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self”) (Augustine, Confessions III, 6, 11) “In him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28) Paul, quoting Epimenides I wonder if this guy has listened to DBH speak about nature and super nature, or read ‘You are Gods.’
Spot quoting Christian tradition, but it indeed proves the point that Horton made about use of the philosophical Platonic tool box to describe theological concepts. Paul's monologue at Athens has no undercurrents whatsoever of delineating a monism, he was critiquing the underlying assumptions of ontologic autonomy among the Greeks of that place who were enmeshed in the extreme world-bending optionality of polytheistic deities. This "in him we live" statement was language to describe the pervasive care, overseeing of, and deep knowledge of mankind, deeper than we know ourselves and certainly that divine pervasive care and oversight overrides any pagan projects of the day to attain self knowledge with spiritual benefits. Autonomy, by implication, is the most fundamental sin and lie of fallen mankind that was manifest in the polytheistic buffet of Athens.
But Paul is actually affirming some of their beliefs. He’s quoting a pagan poet. He’s not talking about the Greek pantheon (Paul likely thought their gods were archons), but about the foundational ultimate reality.
@@pedrom8831 Consider the flow of Paul's statements and quotes: - The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man... - he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything... - he made from one man every nation of mankind to live - they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. - Yet he is actually not far from each one of us [in fact you've already heard that] - "In him we live and move and have our being" - "we are his offspring" This is obviously not an endorsement of all original intent of the quoted poets/philosophical proverbs. Instead he sifts out a buried truth in them regarding the one true God's universal nearness and knowability *despite* the false and ignorant belief systems of temple-confined idol worship. Paul was bringing out clear characteristics of what theologians call Natural Law; namely that from the created order all mankind know certain aspects of their creator God despite their religious and philosophical systems: we are all created by God, and our subsequent moral responsibilities to this knowable God, as human creatures made in his image, are unambiguous. This is all that encompasses Paul's use of existing "in him" as a universal reality. This then only gets someone so far, thus Paul launches into special revelation of the realities of judgment, repentance, salvation by faith and the resurrection of the dead.
What is a word "god" since that word has never been in my vocabulary from all the conversations and reading of myself and my ancestors my skin pigment and hair is from the far north of the earth when our body expires become earth again because matter is never destroyed only changes into something else.
Majority of of the religious and irreligious spirituals (including the the new agers) throughout history have believed various degrees of superstitions. I take astrology as an example that I've read and heard a portion of religious folks and proportionally even more new age spirituals believe in. However I'd say it is possible to incline towards spirituality, yearn a universal connection, or have faith in a higher power/Creator without being bound by all the rules of theistic religions or belief in superstition be it astrology, palm reading, psychic reading, or other unessential beliefs to deism or spirituality.
We need a new clarification for the average follower of our Lord Jesus Crist because for many church following folk religion has become a dirty word, we're do we stand with them is what many ask themselves.
@tookie36 oh that's interesting. Yes probably non denom. I was thinking Reformed denominations and they love "religion" and institutions as all Christians should
Every bodies dead in Gods eyes if your not born from Above and in Christ. The living dead or the walking dead, bit like Shaun of the dead. Walking Zombies in Gods eyes, In Christ alive in Christ we are full of light and life indwelling of the Holy Spirit of Christ. The Spirit gives life. Flesh gives birth to flesh,Spirit gives birth to Spirit. The same Spirit that raised Christ. Jesus is the giver of Life.
I was in a pseudo spiritual cult for three years (Word of faith/ NAR/ positive confession/ rituals) and Michael Horton and White Horse Inn has really helped me out of it and pointed me to the real gospel of Christ. Thank you WHI !
Amazing! We're so glad we've been able to minister to you
“The only thing that would turn things around is a massive cultural rejection of the dogma of autonomy.” Mic drop. 🎤
Great interview! Ty!
True to Mike's reputation, he laser-focuses on THE point of the problem: Adam was the first enthusiast. Rejecting autonomy begins with each soul saved by Christ, in repentance and humble gratitude.
The Disneyfication of the christian religion needs to be called out, avoided, rejected and the true Gospel needs to be taught and defended. Entertainment products like The Chosen (industrial profiteering of Jesus) and the various New Apostolic Reformation gimmicks, portray mega-blasphemous autonomy at a whole other level. Thank you Lord, for Dr. Horton's tireless work and love for Your people and Your Word. In the midst of the perilous realm, we are blessed.🙏
Real religion in real antiquity ... does not match the EO/RCC propaganda. But perennial spirituality occurs in every generation.
Really fascinating, thank you for that excellent and thought provoking discussion - I wish there had been a discussion of some of the other approaches to Plato - Nietzsche, Strauss, and Vogelin to further the idea of what is going on with Plato in the modern world, I hope his book discusses it further.
This will be the first of three books in the series so keep an eye out!
@@solamediaorg Wonderful, I just ordered it and didn't realize it was going to be so massive - I thought that was a bit of joking about two more volumes! Can't wait to tear into this first volume.
@@solamediaorg I have been studying philosophy, theology (systematic and Biblical) for nearly 50 years (formally and informally). Mysticism, shamanism, existentialism has been an intense interest for many years. I was curious about Dr. Horton illustration of "the shaman". It seems that Paul certainly fulfills many of the characteristics he described. Ecstatic experience (Damascus road), retreated the Arabian desert (Galatians 1:17). Even in Acts we see Paul shaving his head "for the sake of an oath". Paul certainly fits the bill as a mystic. I did very much enjoy Dr. Horton's description of the thorough participation of Greek philosophy and culture in the NT writings. Many times folks (like Bultmann) tried to remove the Greek "mythological language" from the NT and retrieve the "message" (kerygma). This has always been a fool's errand. Thank you for this discussion. I enjoyed it greatly.
Spiritual but not religious is like saying I like apples but not trees
It’s acknowledging the existence of higher powers but not committing to any of the demands it makes of us.
@@findingthereal9052 religion has to do with binding, such as connecting meaning to material. The modern way religion is referred to has more to do with institutions. An ancient temple and contemplation are connected, temple is even in contemplate.
In the way Horton defines it, or at least that is what I understand from what he explains:
Spiritual, it is believing that God is the universe itself, and all we have to do is look inside ourselves to find it
Religious, it is believing that the universe, and we, are an act of God's creation, and the way to find God is by coming out of us through service to others. That is, we need others, the body of Christ, the church, to reach God
@@huveja9799 that’s some of the issue I’m having. There is a no “thingness” to God that may be expressed through nature but not nature itself. If I said the spirit is what moves matter, would you be bothered by that? Spirit , wind and breath all originated with the same word.
@@TheDrb27
It doesn't bother me at all. In fact the soul is what animates matter, without a soul matter would be inert, even animals have a soul. Our difference with animals is that our soul is spiritual, and therefore survives death. But when we die we are incomplete, because we are not angels, who are pure spirit (not souls). We are body and soul, that's why we are going to resurrect and be complete again.
The best expression of God in nature is ourselves, who were created in His image and likeness. Nature in itself, without man, is the work of God, and as such it reflects His creative power, but we cannot find God in nature, we only find Him loving our brothers and sisters, there God manifests himself ..
"To some extent modern scientific rationality is the offspring of a long, romantic, and quarrelsome relationship between Christianity and hermeticism." (41:25 mark)
The moment you see the world around you with the flow of everything that I learned from reading philosophy I studied the "WHY" because men still haven't asked half the population of the world of humans our perspective, faces and speech isn't seen much on movies, pictures and pictures such as U Tube.
The most modern iteration of "spiritual but not religious" arose with Alcoholics Anonymous, which described (and still describes) itself as such.
I've always struggled with the lack of commitment to getting specific about God in AA. I kinda see it as a gateway drug to God and assume it doesn't get specific so as to get people in to first address the addiction and then they can decide from there what they want to do about the God question but I do find it disappointing many still don't progress past the Higher Power wishy washy definition and remain a spiritual but not religious person.
That's from early new age influences on the AA in the 70s.
AA has Christian foundations. Read the original 12 steps!
Dr. Michael Horton is a prolific writer. Where does he find the time?
What a timely topic to cover, only 15 years after the last time someone said this phrase unironically.
Thank you Michael
'Spiritual but not religious' to me is akin to God saying, "It IS Good that Man is alone." It's Adam without Eve. It's Christ without his bride. I don't experience an atomized type of anything in the world around me. Heck, I must 'bind together' (religion) these letters to form words to make up the sentences that make up the paragraph that gets this point across. I can't even explain a point to you without being religious. Religios simply makes more sense phenomalogically. I've been looking into this issue of atomiziation Michael talked about. I'm Catholic, but I still appreciate my reformed brothers like Michael Horton!
Thanks for listening!
Well wouldn't you know that this is now arising.
Lovely sparkle for the future.
It is really what has been compiled as the perennial philosophy as well.
Belief in religion has no bearing on whether there’s a god.
Non belief in religion has no bearing whether there is a God.
@@veronica_._._._ Yes, that’s correct. Religion is irrelevant.
That's what I said
@@kp6215 Ok Booder
27:45 the term he’s looking for is “Philosophia Christi”
“But the prince must be forearmed with an antidote, after this fashion he whom you are reading is a pagan; you who are reading, are a Christian. Although he speaks with authority on many subjects, yet he by no means gives an accurate picture of the good prince. Look out that you do not chance upon something in his works which you think you must therefore imitate directly. Measure everything by the Christian standard.” - Erasmus in ‘Institutio principis Christiani’
19:34 - 20:09
If you have the eyes to see, and the ears to hear it, this is a description of Jesus.
Well well well … I’m starting to understand the significance of Jordan Peterson’s church that he founded (apparently to become a marriage officiant - yeah right). He named it: “The Church of the Spirit of St. Joachim of Florence”.
“If each of us did everything we could do, and needed to do, we would have no need for a king. We're sovereign citizens.”
- “And Away from Hell | Jordan Peterson's first speech at ARC 2023”
Carl Jung was the patron saint of spiritual agnosticism. Where you don't just disregard hallucinations and spiritual experiences while also keeping one foot in the ground. Im not too hostile against it.
He keeps saying here and in other interviews that Wicca is the fastest growing religion in America. No. Islam is. Where is he getting his information?
The discrepancy may be between if you take into account the influx of immigration populations bringing their traditional beliefs with them that alters these statistics. Or if you look more narrowly at home-grown shifts in religious beliefs. I'd like to see data on whether *conversion* to Islam is occurring at a higher rate than this ubiquitous trend of people especially the newer generations falling into the wiccan-mystic-occult type self empowering phenomena
No one ever accused Calvinists of having accurate information.
I'm rather surprised Dr. Horton thinks that the rejection of autonomy is the key to cultural shift in modern society. It's not that at all. Renewal (from a horizontal level) will be found in the ressourcement of the discipline of metaphysics and natural theology. The separation of matter and spirit under Kant's Idealism is the bugbear of our modern milieu. You can't confront autonomy until you first *prove* a se authority.
You said: "Renewal (from a horizontal level) will be found in the ressourcement of the discipline of metaphysics and natural theology.". This is an interesting comment. I have been pondering Horton's position in this interview. It seems he is trying to prune away the "spiritual but not religious" notions while maintaining the real relationship of Christianity with Greek philosophy, shamanism, mystic religions and fertility cults. I tend to think we should encourage this trend to go full tilt. Sure there will be many that will go into the silly superstitious stuff Horton has evoked. But I maintain that the current mainline Christianity (particularly Protestantism) has gotten away from any notion of Christian service or pastoral care and swapped it for money, power and sex. The protestant rejection of the mystic traditions and disciplines (including natural theology) has been the most severe weakness of Protestantism. Anything that will help prune away those corrupt lusts, I would support.
@@manager0175 I have no idea as to what you're trying to say. Let's have a conversation. When are you available?
The other problem with Kant is that he tried to say that there are limits to knowledge. How can we ever know that? The assertion has made people apathetic about trying. Rudolf Steiner took him on in his book, 'Philosophy of Freedom', and asserted that the nurturing of Intuition is the right pathway for modern minds.
Viva Cristo Rey ❤
Now connect autonomy with the gospel and teach us how to communicate that with our lost family/friends/neighbors/community. Intellectual stuff is great, but lets learn to be practical for the every day.
It's a good question. Assuming you are talking about the lost ones you are about are specifically on this journey of spiritual but not religious:
A starting point could be focusing on this particular blending of autonomy and spirituality -- it seems to be a means of approaching the divine on either one's own terms which are based on one's own wishful thinking and self-will; or by committing to some how-to steps of ritual, lifestyle changes, and self righteous accomplishments as instructed by some guru or spiritual influencer.
Even physical health influencers on social media these days promote this pathway of being healthy and natural is a spiritual practice, a means of communing with the divine found in sacred nature. We just have to cleanse ourselves of modern toxins and behaviors to tap in to be who we were meant to be.
Point out the problems with that, how assuming the divine is a part of creation, and is approachable by some form of self effort, and that if they are attempting to reverse a falling out with the divine that means something in the past went terribly wrong. How do they know this is the way to fix it? What is the moral nature of a divine being who is ready to heighten one's experiences and consciousness as a response to some self help guidelines? If God is part of nature instead of overseeing nature, what does that say about God if nature often seems hazardous and indifferent to our own self will?
Just some initial thoughts
As an atheist/agnostic, it annoys me when people identify as either spiritual or religious 😅
Hey STW. Do you have good reason to hold to what you believe, or do you just follow the crowd?
@@normanmilquetoast1 follow the crowd bb 👌🏻
@@NeedSomeNuance Why am I not surprised? Atheeustes RUUL!
Smartest...people...in the room...always. ;)
@@normanmilquetoast1 Oh really? Ever hear of Alvin Plantinga? Francis Collins? Neither atheism nor theism has a lock on intellect nor stupidity. You will find intelligent people, and stupid people in both camps. In just about equal percentages.
@@manager0175 I have found that it's nearly impossible to find atheists willing to engage their ideas beyond repeating memes on social media. I'd love to discuss. When are you available?
Our lord knows his church and it's made up of many people's of different places for he is the head and maybe we get caught up with labels and forget this
Number 1 reason for false cults, because man is self centered . God created us for worship , it is in our DNA and so is sin. When we take Christ our King out of everything,we head down a road to find our utopia that cannot exist.
You said: "Number 1 reason for false cults, because man is self centered ". Horton is a Calvinist. Calvinists believe God has chosen the "elect" to be redeemed and the rest are condemned from the foundation of the world. Every Calvinists believes they are among the "elect". Is there anything more "self centered" than saying: "I am among God's elect. God has chosen me from the foundation of the world to be redeemed."?
I’m no scholar, but reformed dudes seem a little odd
“interior intimo meo et superior summo meo” (“higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self”) (Augustine, Confessions III, 6, 11)
“In him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28)
Paul, quoting Epimenides
I wonder if this guy has listened to DBH speak about nature and super nature, or read ‘You are Gods.’
Spot quoting Christian tradition, but it indeed proves the point that Horton made about use of the philosophical Platonic tool box to describe theological concepts.
Paul's monologue at Athens has no undercurrents whatsoever of delineating a monism, he was critiquing the underlying assumptions of ontologic autonomy among the Greeks of that place who were enmeshed in the extreme world-bending optionality of polytheistic deities. This "in him we live" statement was language to describe the pervasive care, overseeing of, and deep knowledge of mankind, deeper than we know ourselves and certainly that divine pervasive care and oversight overrides any pagan projects of the day to attain self knowledge with spiritual benefits. Autonomy, by implication, is the most fundamental sin and lie of fallen mankind that was manifest in the polytheistic buffet of Athens.
But Paul is actually affirming some of their beliefs. He’s quoting a pagan poet.
He’s not talking about the Greek pantheon (Paul likely thought their gods were archons), but about the foundational ultimate reality.
@@pedrom8831
Consider the flow of Paul's statements and quotes:
- The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man...
- he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything...
- he made from one man every nation of mankind to live
- they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him.
- Yet he is actually not far from each one of us
[in fact you've already heard that]
- "In him we live and move and have our being"
- "we are his offspring"
This is obviously not an endorsement of all original intent of the quoted poets/philosophical proverbs. Instead he sifts out a buried truth in them regarding the one true God's universal nearness and knowability *despite* the false and ignorant belief systems of temple-confined idol worship.
Paul was bringing out clear characteristics of what theologians call Natural Law; namely that from the created order all mankind know certain aspects of their creator God despite their religious and philosophical systems: we are all created by God, and our subsequent moral responsibilities to this knowable God, as human creatures made in his image, are unambiguous. This is all that encompasses Paul's use of existing "in him" as a universal reality.
This then only gets someone so far, thus Paul launches into special revelation of the realities of judgment, repentance, salvation by faith and the resurrection of the dead.
What is a word "god" since that word has never been in my vocabulary from all the conversations and reading of myself and my ancestors my skin pigment and hair is from the far north of the earth when our body expires become earth again because matter is never destroyed only changes into something else.
Majority of of the religious and irreligious spirituals (including the the new agers) throughout history have believed various degrees of superstitions. I take astrology as an example that I've read and heard a portion of religious folks and proportionally even more new age spirituals believe in.
However I'd say it is possible to incline towards spirituality, yearn a universal connection, or have faith in a higher power/Creator without being bound by all the rules of theistic religions or belief in superstition be it astrology, palm reading, psychic reading, or other unessential beliefs to deism or spirituality.
We need a new clarification for the average follower of our Lord Jesus Crist because for many church following folk religion has become a dirty word, we're do we stand with them is what many ask themselves.
Aren’t Protestants “spiritual but not religious”?
No
@@cjfoster4179 are you sure? Especially the nondenominational. The “relationship but not religious” crowd
@tookie36 oh that's interesting. Yes probably non denom. I was thinking Reformed denominations and they love "religion" and institutions as all Christians should
I am Protestant and "spiritual but not religious."
If this guy went to Oxford he should know this doctrine is based in Western Esotericism. He either missed sumthin, or...
Two brothers? Where are the females those voices should be in EVERY conversation.
Every bodies dead in Gods eyes if your not born from Above and in Christ.
The living dead or the walking dead, bit like Shaun of the dead.
Walking Zombies in Gods eyes,
In Christ alive in Christ we are full of light and life indwelling of the Holy Spirit of Christ.
The Spirit gives life.
Flesh gives birth to flesh,Spirit gives birth to Spirit.
The same Spirit that raised Christ.
Jesus is the giver of Life.
Jesus as the Power to give Life.
Yes because Nature abhors a vacuum...Don't believe in Jesus?
There are plenty alternatives...
There is no absolute Truth.
"There is no absolute Truth." @lesleypatoncox1569 says dogmatically. ;)
Smartest...people...in the room.
Real religion is pure monotheism or Unitarianism. Not Trinity!
How do you know?
@@normanmilquetoast1
How come you dont know? Trinity is carp!
@@hassanmirza2392 When are you available and we can debate?
@@normanmilquetoast1
Debate about trinity? That is for dumb people.