The Orks know the Ultramarines well. In fact: they associate the color blue to be lucky with how much plot armor the Ultramarines seem to have in a few instances.
I think something you didn't touch on is that the Ultramarines being so noble and heroic and Orthodox is an affectation. They always act like they're the heroic and there to lead the imperium forward because they failed. The underlying tension here is what you missed; they failed to protect the emperor. The Ultramarines got held up at Calth but they had a chance to return to Terra and didn't. During the siege of Terra the Ruinstorm blocked sight of the Astronomican and rather than having faith in the Emperor and his brothers guilliman founded the Imperium Secundus to keep the fight going fearing the fall of the emperor and obsessing at trying to create a tactical advantage when the correct move would have been to aid Dorn and the siege immediately. Gilliman later basically wiped the records of the Imperium Secundus knowing it was a shameful cowardly mistake made in fear. The Emperor most likely wouldn't have died if Gilliman had been more Heroic and less by the book. The post heresy Ultramarines actually do change, they now have a tension in the chapter between the nature of their primarch to be Orthodox and the desire to prove themselves heroic to make up for the stain on their chapter that only they perceive. Whereas the Dark Angels fear and are paranoid about people learning of their shame the Ultramarines go the opposite direction and are over heroic all the time to put an unquestionable pretence of being morally unquestionable. Guilliman and the Ultramarines took center stage not just because they're the poster-boy in marketing but because they became the poster-boy for the Imperium in order to make up for their failure. If you think about it the Imperial fists are the actual heroes of 30k, they're the ones who went straight to Terra and kept Chaos from steamrolling the Imperium. They took the blows, and the Ultramarines didn't do anything meaningful. Now in 40k the Ultramarines are the ones leading the way and trying to make up for that, and they're not pretending to be heroic but being heroic to make up for a lack of heroism. This is an important part of the reasoning behind their behavior in 40k, the Paragon nature of the Legion is not a writing trope but an in world theme of the chapter that gets them in trouble. Titus shows this, he embodies the 'fearless, heroic, glory centric willingness to do anything to win, superman-like' mindset the Ultramarines have adopted post Heresy and Leandros embodies the 'cowardly, dogmatic, rule orientated, practical, by the book, thoughtlessly logistics oriented, risk adverse, and pragmatic' Nature of the Ultramarines and Guilliman. The choice and wrestling between what works and what is necessary is the core of the current ultramarines, and their design and themes have changed because of it by adding more red and yellow and less white.
@WhatareyouPaintingnow take another look. That would mean you only see the whites of the eyes like shredder from TMNT. It doesn't make sense to have a helmet without lenses, yes I know 40k often lacks sense but still. Btw roman leather belts are called cingulum militare
If you take a look it was often a motif in earlier helmets. We have looked at over 100 different templates for this series. I am happy to agree to disagree but this what we do - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow You are wrong you can see these lenses on the other legions, just look at the renders on the side of the age of darkness box for the sons of Horus and Imperial Fists.
For the redesign, i really latch onto the idea of using a symbol of a different Roman diety, like Minerva, or Apollo, etc to represent each company. Zeus representing the first company, Pluto representing the Chaplains, Neptune as the Librarians. GW, listen to the lady: if we're gonna get a dozen primaris lieutenants, you can put out an upgrade sprue with some togas for my commanders
Thank you Jake! I'm so glad my thought process resonated with you 😀 and yes! I didn't think of that at all! Different gods for different companies brilliant! ~Sunny
I honestly like Ultramarine design and colours as due to very practical reasons of painting they are very easy to teach to new painters. Plus lack of details on majority of models make aproaching the hobby for newcomers much easier. Makes them a great starting point for additional detailks and sets the baseline of what Space Marine should look like.
Timestamps ⏲ 0:00 Intro 0:44 What Sunny knows 0:38 Preheresy Design Breakdown & Analysis 17:03 Preheresy Art 24:14 Preheresy Design vs Lore 33:15 Preheresy Final Notes 37:23 Post Heresy Breakdown & Analysis 46:06 Post Heresy Art 58:39 Post Heresy Design vs Lore 1:07:28 Redesign 1:12:43 Post Heresy Final Notes 1:14:00 Outro 1:14:32 End Credits
Thanks guys! That was a really fun one. Cal is right about keeping it generic for the poster boys, but if it was up to me I'd be designing them like Sunny did with lots of cool details like the redesigns you put early on in the video. Full togas can be an option for newbies who want the easy way out. Let them eat contrast paint!!!
38:40 The Salamanders also do this! 1st company: white symbol, gold trim 2nd company: white symbol, green trim (all others have this trim) 3rd: orange symbol 4th: green symbol 5th: yellow symbol 6th: red symbol 7th (scouts) grey symbol, no/black trim. They also use both helmet colours and fire symbols on their squad markings (as in, the Tactical Arrow, the Devastator inverted V, etc) to denote rank. Their squad number markings are also done in the same colours as their chapter symbols. I just think they're neat.
No we didn't as we mentioned multiple times before time is a thing and we can't talk about everything but we do our best to cover what is important - Cal
That's actually just the way the light is reflecting off the eye lenses. Their eyes are not actually exposed in those helmets. First artwork is in fact post-heresy. Looking at the belly you can see the power cables characteristic of Mk VII. You can even see a damaged Mk VII helmet on the ground next to his feet. Second piece looks to be post-hersy as well; primaris, in fact. The quote about the Primaris came from Gabriel Seth, the Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers. He pummeled the first primaris marine to talk to him the moment they met. The green toga feels too Dark Angels. And seeing that versus what she intended it to be, with my knowledeg of the Codex Astartes, she's showing a marine that is the complete opposite of what she was intending. Another thing not mentioned, which further exemplifies this is the laurel on the helmet. That's a very specific honour badge among space marines, particularly the Ultramarines. That's the Imperial Laurel, which is bestowed upon marines who have performed such feats of skill, zeal, and heroism that have won the Imperium a great victory that they have earned the honour to wear the laurel. Which also means that you'll pretty much never see it on a youngster of the 7th company. And white helmets are a specific characteristic of the first company, too.
@WhatareyouPaintingnow yeah I've never been a fan of cloth on frontline minis but for commanders it works well. It would be cool to add the owl into some helmet designs (possibly the terminators.) But the real question of the video has to be that skull with "Ultra" written underneath, what could it mean??? Cal: Ultramarines. Yeah but what does the "Ultra" mean? Cal: ULTRAMARINES!!!!! Hmmmm, I guess some things are meant to remain unsolved.
Another great video cal and Sunny. Cal i do believe most of the photos you used except the one with the "death mask" is from 40k during the heresy portion
I am pretty sure you are right, but sometimes I make mistakes like that as it's not always easy to get everything right in one go... But I think there is one other one I got right ha ha BUT as I said with the first one I was trying to focus on feel - Cal
13:00 the ultramarine breacher uses a common Roman shield motif, the lightning bolts sprouting of the center of the shield (it would be a metallic part called umbo but in this case is the legion symbol). The rays of lightning were asociated with Jupiter, god of thunder, and eagles also were the symbol of Jupiter, also god of the sky and king of the gods.
After all 20 Legions are initiallly done through the design vs lore series. I'd love to see Sunny abosrb as much as reasonable on all the lore. Then to see what she would say with regards to what she may suggest to redesign. I don't think too much would change. Cal and Sunnny, your break downs are on point every time. But... maybe, just maybe. If Sunny one day had the same background knowledge of Cal. Sunny may slowly think of a few extra few things to add or subract from a legions design by the end of this series.
Well we have one video we have recorded but not done for Xor'Lore where she directly read the lore and she really enjoyed it. It's about the space marine organ implementation process but... It may be on the back burner for awhile as it's about an hour long and design vs lore is taking a lot of our time
To address your gripes about Gmoney, first the codex astartes was written as a response to the Heresy to prevent another legion all at once going traitor. I can understand your point about the badab war too but you have to remember he never intended it to be followed for as long as it did, he admit it himself after being revived and I bet top money were he there for the War of the Beast he'd move to reinstate something similar to the legion which lead me to the second point the primaris project. The primaris marine were one unified legion at the start of the indomitus crusade but during it course marines from the same primarch were dispatched to reinforce depleted chapters till by the end of the crusade they were disbanded as a whole.
I’m Still curious how they managed to turn blue and gold into the most vanilla combo ever . Like I mentally know it’s a cool color combo but it just feels so vanilla it hurts.
Greetings from Texas! Miguel Iglesias' last name at 18:21 is pronounced closer to "E-gleh-see-us". We see it a bit here, but it's Spanish for church. No shame, last names are hard sometimes.
@@josephplatt7622 Yeah for sure, we have a saying here in Australia in relation to stuff where people aren't confident about stuff we say "Have a go, ya mug" - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow I was joking. They are portrayed as the least awful but still have iconography that references Rome, WW2 Germany, starship troopers, judge dredd. They are still authoritarian monsters and that comes through the clean look.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I don't think it's something you need to worry about, I watch your channel for the design/colour theory, not your moral assessment of space marines. It's not the fault of those of us who understand satire when others don't.
Ah, yes. The Black Lion. The story of how one person created a simply huge gallery of himself, transferred to Warhammer in the person of his self-fiction character.
Chill, the first art was fan art we were talking about art styles and how we would like to see some variation in art. Sunny asked what's his story and I laughed - Cal
Cal calling Papa Smurf a hypocrite is a bit of a stretch, especially with the examples he uses. Splitting the legions up into chapters absolutely saved the imperium, because without it people like Huron Blackheart would’ve had the opportunity to gain even more power than he did, being able to corrupt well beyond the sphere of influence he had in the original lore. The primaris, while being a legion sized force, was still split amongst his brother’s chapters instead of hogging them all for his own. The only reason the ultramarines have the most successors is 1: their stable geneseed, 2: their massive numbers before the heresy, and 3: other legions having more complications with creating successors(I.E. Wolf brothers, shattered legions, etc). Almost everything guilliman did, especially in 40k, was in service to the imperium as a whole. He even split power between him and Dante in the 41st millennium, giving Dante power over nihilus. He still has more authority over him as a Primarch of course but Guilliman still tries to maintain the separation of power despite being Lord Regent and one of the few people remotely capable of ruling the entire imperium. The Codex Astartes wasn’t even a strict rule book for the Space Marines, it was a set of guidelines that could be innovated upon to fit different chapters, it was only after he was put in stasis that the Ultramarines started treating it as something you just follow to a T. Also, guilliman wanted his sons to learn how to be statesman and philosophers so they had some use after the great crusade, since they would probably die if they were to be useless without war. Keep in mind, most of the legions before the heresy were under the assumption that they needed to be of use after the crusade, they didn’t know that most likely they would be culled after they weren’t useful anymore like the Thunder Warriors. He cared for his sons and wanted them to live fulfilling lives in, I really can’t say it’s reasonable to hate him for that. And finally for Monarchia, Guilliman didn’t go into it with the mentality “why can’t you just follow the rules Lorgar?” He genuinely did not want to burn Monarchia and felt that his father went too far with his judgement, feeling remorse for his actions despite him just following the orders he was given. That’s why he was so eager to rebuild the bonds between the two legions at Calth, but Lorgar betrayed him. Lorgar thought Guilliman hated him, and that’s why he was so cruel to the Ultramarines in that conflict, but he eventually realized that his brother never hated him before then, but it was too late by that point. Guilliman does have his flaws, but I don’t think most of the gripes Cal has with him hold much weight when you read about him in the books and such. I’d also like to add that Guilliman did not create the Primaris, it was a project Cawl had worked on for 10k years since the heresy. He came to guilliman with the project and framed it as a way to replenish the imperium’s fighting force and bring innovation to the imperium’s stagnation. Guilliman signed off on it because it would help all the Astartes forces across the galaxy. That’s why most chapters either got fresh primaris recruits immediately during or after the indomitus crusade, or the instruction for how to make primaries marines if they couldn’t be given any recruits directly.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I would have to disagree considering Huron wasn’t going against the Codex because of the lack of numbers, he had a successful chapter, he was in a long standing alliance with other Chapters like the Lamentors, Mantis warriors, etc, and the Maelstrom was full of resources to pull from for him to use. He had full control of the Badab sector, he and the Maelstrom wardens didn’t need much else, they were completely set. The reason he went against the codex is because he wanted more power, hints the name the “Tyrant of Badab.” He only needed more men because he wanted to expand his sphere of influence beyond the Badab sector/Maelstrom and suggested an entire founding to be made to fit his plan. Of course his intention originally were to help the imperium by taking more control over the areas surrounding the sectors of space he already had a hold of, but he was power hungry and still willfully went against the imperium and went above his station because of his own lofty ambitions and goals, eventually leading to him going behind everyone’s back to try and create a new legion of his own.
@mjmj330 notice how they only point out specific parts of comments. They don't even bother to acknowledge that they get called out for getting some stuff wrong, guilliman isn't perfect but he has learned from his mistakes and agree upon that cause unlike them I am not really time poor, sure I have a day job but I read the lore to learn about a lot from 40k, so yes these statements by Cal and Sunny are dismissive its like only what they say is valid in the lore, so in other words this video is made by two tourists point of view not fans who know a great grip of lore, and in case they want to say something they admitted in another comment that they are time poor according to Cal, so yeah as a whole these two's takes are nothing but brain rot, but nice design tweaks as I'll give credit where credit is due
@@stevenm3131 Tourists huh? Okay if you say, so I mean you random unnamed commenter are way more knowledgeable. We only say specific things... You don't say almost like we said we can't cover everything with the Ultramarines due to the amount of lore we have. Seriously I find you people hilarious and sad no matter what is said you always find a way to complain - Cal
I think Sunny's design would suit Veterans/unique units better. Templars have tabards, Dark Angels have robes, don't see why Ultramarines should have togas. But instead of scholars, I would aim for nobility and the ruling class vibe - philosophers are more perceived as a Greek theme, and I would save it for Alpha Legion, which is arguably THE ancient Greece chapter. Because Ultramarines are also both coming from the nobility more often than not, and are ruling class of the Ultramar. It would make sense that veterans would be groomed to take more part in the administration and organization of the governmental affairs, because 1st company veterans are probably number one candidates to both become captains of their companies and accept different honorary and actual positions in the governmental office. And IMHO it should be a longer toga, from the shoulder to the lower legs. Maybe purple even, but I feel like it doesn't really work with blue/gold all that good. But I personally would like ultramarines to have more elements of roman army to make them a little more distinct. Like, replace every knightly/monk-esque thing with a Roman motif. Leg armor trim ornaments is a good idea. Doesn't make the design too crowded with details but makes them stand out. Also helmets is a good place to start. Some chapters have unique helmets, and I see no reason why Ultramarines can't have their helmets more stylized to look a bit more roman. Not to mention Aquila designs and swords with shields. Romans actually had longer one-handed swords with unique designs - for example, leaf-shaped, so there is a lot of variations other than gladius design. And Bladeguard shields could be totally made more romanesque. Anyway, great analysis as always guys 😊
I think you bring up some good points, with the toga I did originally wanted to make it longer but It looked like a marine wearing a dress and it didn't fit the vibe in the end, but yes I agree the helmets could be more expressly Roman as well as the weapons. But as we also mentioned that a good amount of the other legions incorporate Roman designs it's hard to make the Ultramarines stand out from the others because of that too ~Sunny
Honestly I understand the limitations and I think this is the biggest one yet, I would have still would have liked Cato and Victrix Guard art showcase...
That was probably our longest art section ever, I wanted to show the most important pieces and like with the first piece shown and the "black lion" I wanted to show different art styles. It's hard try to include what we do and more importantly what we do not - Cal
“Roboute… wise Roboute. Roboute with his scratching quills and his plans and his hope. Too understanding too strong too damn perfect.” - Horus Lupercal Still, the breaking of the Legions was right for the period it was introduced. However, the lack of any changes in the law for over 10,000 years is the reason modern 40k has so many problems.
I would disagree because he was working on the primarius at the same time so in the new lore his talking out of both sides of his mouth. However in the old lore I get how desperate he was, we have done a video on him on our lore channel you may like - Cal
@ The Primaris were an act of reinforcement and improvement for the loyalists. The breaking was to ensure the might of a full legion couldn't be turned into chaos. It is easier to contain a chapter of 1000 than 10,000. In my opinion, Roboute did the right thing after the Hersey the Primaris saved the Blood Angels and their Chapters who were all but decimated during the Devastation of Baal. The lines in the codex which haven't been touched in 10,000 years have since been revised to best suit a modern Imperium.
Redesign-wise, i like the toga, but i think it'd look better in the more stereotypical white toga you imagine romans in. Maybe the toga could also hang below the belt instead of the pteruges? Green toga looks too much like a salad.
1:09:35 that fugly ass *GREEN* toga absolutely has to go. But *A* toga is definitely an option. In Space Marine 2 the tactical has a toga option and it can make some very good looks.
Having read the books i think the view on Guilliman is excessive. He do ask a lot of advise, confrontation and generally tries not to impose himself on others if he can. He is aware of the hypocrisy of the unnumbered sons legions but has to handwave that because shit is fucking going down and there's no time to explain that he did ask cawl for an improved space marine, and didn't expect literally a million (maybe millions) of them in the 41st millenia (there's a book that cover it and heavily implies cawl decided to take guilliman permission after the heresy and went to town making his stuff). He is constantly twitchy at the fucking mess the imperium is in, trying to do the best of what he's got. And in general much of his reforms were apparently approved by both the emperor (his meeting is a tricky affair) and by the captain general of the custodes, yet the imperium is an unwieldy carcass unheeding of his attempts to steer things to a more hopeful future. Also yeah agree the primaries stripped far too much culture from space marines, i would fucking love older marks of power armor retooled for primaries like some novels describe. Are you telling me the fucking charchadons in bumfuck nowhere in the outer dark received a shipment of a 1000 brand new power armors plus all the connected equipment? No, at most they received a bit of stuff and are converting old gear to be compatible. Personally i fond very stupid the decision of 'old gear don't fit space marines anymore'. Space marines always had haight variation, and primaries aren't even on the taller end of the firstborn height spectre. They would have been 100% able to adjust old equipment to primaries height. I fucking love mark II and III power armor. Also cato sicarious went through PTSD and currently in lore he's nowhere near so bombastic as before.
To be honest I don't think the primarius fit lore wise I think that they were always intended to be true scale marines, but someone in management said then how do we sell them. It's part of the lore now and I would like the idea you described with primarius proportions but I doubt we will get that. Despite not liking the new lore I always loved the minis... Okay maybe not the nerf gun guys - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow there is currently somewhat of a shift in the philosophy, the term primaris marine is kind of getting dropped and some firstborn equipment pieces are being added back to the space marines. I think the 'introductory' phase is now over and they can merge the two lines. Also yes the idea of primaries likely stem from the need to update the entire mini range to a less gofy one. The design itself is fine, it's pretty distinct power armour, still i would love truescale old power armor marks. As for their introduction i don't hate the lore but the suddennes they were thrusted in. Cawl is a great character and i love him, but they could have at least hinted at things working in the background before the 8th edition dropped. Production of standard marine gear dropping from many forgeworlds, material shipments redirected, weird mechanicus fleet appearing and disappearing... I like when warhammer has tons of things going on disconnected from the main characters of the setting and i think gw should lean heavily into it. Obscure chapters, the undergrowth of xeno civilisations living hiding from the imperium, mysterious relics from ages past... the galaxy need more unexplained and mystical leaning material where unorthodox, eccentric and forgotten actors lurks and act within. On that subject i absolutely adore the dark coil serie and what the author has created. Read that shit if you can, it's soo good.
I was trhere to homebrew a pure American legion? Like there champter master and gead liberaten get the titles of president and vice president. What are some fun US-American only concepts that would work for a chapter. Also the mother is black and cyan with a star for the chapter symbol?
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowyes, they can... that's why I felt the need to come back and follow up with an addendum: "Please don't take this as a serious opinion - I'm just trying to help but I'm not passionate enough to comment either way about the ultramarines in a serious fashion and can't put in "that work" but I am trying to help!""
@@bukharajones All good man, we try and respond in kind to people, people who are kind, we respond with kindness, people who are analytical and so on and if people are rude we are rude right back. So you are all good! I was just a little confused ha ha - Cal
The Orks know the Ultramarines well. In fact: they associate the color blue to be lucky with how much plot armor the Ultramarines seem to have in a few instances.
Oh yes, I remember this little tit bit I think it's really funny ~Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Be sure to bring some masks and sanitizer for the next legion! ...you might want a bigger can of RAID too...
I think something you didn't touch on is that the Ultramarines being so noble and heroic and Orthodox is an affectation. They always act like they're the heroic and there to lead the imperium forward because they failed. The underlying tension here is what you missed; they failed to protect the emperor. The Ultramarines got held up at Calth but they had a chance to return to Terra and didn't. During the siege of Terra the Ruinstorm blocked sight of the Astronomican and rather than having faith in the Emperor and his brothers guilliman founded the Imperium Secundus to keep the fight going fearing the fall of the emperor and obsessing at trying to create a tactical advantage when the correct move would have been to aid Dorn and the siege immediately. Gilliman later basically wiped the records of the Imperium Secundus knowing it was a shameful cowardly mistake made in fear. The Emperor most likely wouldn't have died if Gilliman had been more Heroic and less by the book. The post heresy Ultramarines actually do change, they now have a tension in the chapter between the nature of their primarch to be Orthodox and the desire to prove themselves heroic to make up for the stain on their chapter that only they perceive. Whereas the Dark Angels fear and are paranoid about people learning of their shame the Ultramarines go the opposite direction and are over heroic all the time to put an unquestionable pretence of being morally unquestionable.
Guilliman and the Ultramarines took center stage not just because they're the poster-boy in marketing but because they became the poster-boy for the Imperium in order to make up for their failure. If you think about it the Imperial fists are the actual heroes of 30k, they're the ones who went straight to Terra and kept Chaos from steamrolling the Imperium. They took the blows, and the Ultramarines didn't do anything meaningful. Now in 40k the Ultramarines are the ones leading the way and trying to make up for that, and they're not pretending to be heroic but being heroic to make up for a lack of heroism. This is an important part of the reasoning behind their behavior in 40k, the Paragon nature of the Legion is not a writing trope but an in world theme of the chapter that gets them in trouble.
Titus shows this, he embodies the 'fearless, heroic, glory centric willingness to do anything to win, superman-like' mindset the Ultramarines have adopted post Heresy and Leandros embodies the 'cowardly, dogmatic, rule orientated, practical, by the book, thoughtlessly logistics oriented, risk adverse, and pragmatic' Nature of the Ultramarines and Guilliman. The choice and wrestling between what works and what is necessary is the core of the current ultramarines, and their design and themes have changed because of it by adding more red and yellow and less white.
This should be psa for all ultramarines fan
4:35 you guys interpreted this wrong, that's just reflection on the eye lenses not a complete lack of eyelense (seeing the Marines actual eyes)
We have gone through a lot of these templates trust me they are eyes not lens - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow take another look. That would mean you only see the whites of the eyes like shredder from TMNT. It doesn't make sense to have a helmet without lenses, yes I know 40k often lacks sense but still. Btw roman leather belts are called cingulum militare
If you take a look it was often a motif in earlier helmets. We have looked at over 100 different templates for this series. I am happy to agree to disagree but this what we do - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow very well.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow You are wrong you can see these lenses on the other legions, just look at the renders on the side of the age of darkness box for the sons of Horus and Imperial Fists.
For the redesign, i really latch onto the idea of using a symbol of a different Roman diety, like Minerva, or Apollo, etc to represent each company. Zeus representing the first company, Pluto representing the Chaplains, Neptune as the Librarians. GW, listen to the lady: if we're gonna get a dozen primaris lieutenants, you can put out an upgrade sprue with some togas for my commanders
Thank you Jake! I'm so glad my thought process resonated with you 😀 and yes! I didn't think of that at all! Different gods for different companies brilliant! ~Sunny
I honestly like Ultramarine design and colours as due to very practical reasons of painting they are very easy to teach to new painters. Plus lack of details on majority of models make aproaching the hobby for newcomers much easier. Makes them a great starting point for additional detailks and sets the baseline of what Space Marine should look like.
Yes that's a good point you bring up! ~Sunny
Timestamps ⏲
0:00 Intro
0:44 What Sunny knows
0:38 Preheresy Design Breakdown & Analysis
17:03 Preheresy Art
24:14 Preheresy Design vs Lore
33:15 Preheresy Final Notes
37:23 Post Heresy Breakdown & Analysis
46:06 Post Heresy Art
58:39 Post Heresy Design vs Lore
1:07:28 Redesign
1:12:43 Post Heresy Final Notes
1:14:00 Outro
1:14:32 End Credits
Thanks guys! That was a really fun one. Cal is right about keeping it generic for the poster boys, but if it was up to me I'd be designing them like Sunny did with lots of cool details like the redesigns you put early on in the video. Full togas can be an option for newbies who want the easy way out. Let them eat contrast paint!!!
I am legally obligated to say don't drink paint for the love of all that is holy - Cal
Help Sunny live her dream as a true designer guys and gals. Loved seeing you the redesigns #keepthetoga
Hahah keep the toga🤣 well I'm glad someone had good tastes 😛 ~Sunny
Fun bit of history the Nids were supposed to be a reptilian species when first introduced. Which explains the dino,s behind Calgar.
Yeah they said they were meant to be designed around dinosaurs for the longest time even up to third edition - Cal
38:40 The Salamanders also do this!
1st company: white symbol, gold trim
2nd company: white symbol, green trim (all others have this trim)
3rd: orange symbol
4th: green symbol
5th: yellow symbol
6th: red symbol
7th (scouts) grey symbol, no/black trim.
They also use both helmet colours and fire symbols on their squad markings (as in, the Tactical Arrow, the Devastator inverted V, etc) to denote rank.
Their squad number markings are also done in the same colours as their chapter symbols.
I just think they're neat.
Don't worry Salamanders are not that far off now - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow yessssssssssss VULKAN LIVES STOMP STOMP
Tbf, there is a class in Space Marine 2 that has a toga on his cuirass
I have not seen can you tell us what it is called - Cal
OMG y'all are great to paint to :-)
Glad we can help with some inspiration! - Cal
Gabrielle Seth from Flash Tearers (BA successors) said that Primaris looks like different colored Ultramarins.
Yeah I forgot who it was but remembered the quote - Cal
Did anyone mention the white helmet and shoulderpad trim designate a veteran marine of the first company? I must have missed it...
No we didn't as we mentioned multiple times before time is a thing and we can't talk about everything but we do our best to cover what is important - Cal
That's actually just the way the light is reflecting off the eye lenses. Their eyes are not actually exposed in those helmets.
First artwork is in fact post-heresy. Looking at the belly you can see the power cables characteristic of Mk VII. You can even see a damaged Mk VII helmet on the ground next to his feet.
Second piece looks to be post-hersy as well; primaris, in fact.
The quote about the Primaris came from Gabriel Seth, the Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers. He pummeled the first primaris marine to talk to him the moment they met.
The green toga feels too Dark Angels. And seeing that versus what she intended it to be, with my knowledeg of the Codex Astartes, she's showing a marine that is the complete opposite of what she was intending. Another thing not mentioned, which further exemplifies this is the laurel on the helmet. That's a very specific honour badge among space marines, particularly the Ultramarines. That's the Imperial Laurel, which is bestowed upon marines who have performed such feats of skill, zeal, and heroism that have won the Imperium a great victory that they have earned the honour to wear the laurel. Which also means that you'll pretty much never see it on a youngster of the 7th company. And white helmets are a specific characteristic of the first company, too.
Those were owls wings to go with the owl shoulder design - Cal
As I said before I really like the owl and togas for a Roman theming unit.
Thank you rumble, even so do you think that the reasoning to reduce some of it after made sense? ~Sunny
@WhatareyouPaintingnow yeah I've never been a fan of cloth on frontline minis but for commanders it works well. It would be cool to add the owl into some helmet designs (possibly the terminators.) But the real question of the video has to be that skull with "Ultra" written underneath, what could it mean??? Cal: Ultramarines. Yeah but what does the "Ultra" mean? Cal: ULTRAMARINES!!!!! Hmmmm, I guess some things are meant to remain unsolved.
Another great video cal and Sunny. Cal i do believe most of the photos you used except the one with the "death mask" is from 40k during the heresy portion
I am pretty sure you are right, but sometimes I make mistakes like that as it's not always easy to get everything right in one go... But I think there is one other one I got right ha ha BUT as I said with the first one I was trying to focus on feel - Cal
13:00 the ultramarine breacher uses a common Roman shield motif, the lightning bolts sprouting of the center of the shield (it would be a metallic part called umbo but in this case is the legion symbol). The rays of lightning were asociated with Jupiter, god of thunder, and eagles also were the symbol of Jupiter, also god of the sky and king of the gods.
I knew it was Roman but I couldn't put my finger on it - Cal
Worst part about Ultramarines is that they're not actually Ultramarine (color)
Ha that was actually going to be a short we were going to make - Cal
After all 20 Legions are initiallly done through the design vs lore series.
I'd love to see Sunny abosrb as much as reasonable on all the lore.
Then to see what she would say with regards to what she may suggest to redesign.
I don't think too much would change. Cal and Sunnny, your break downs are on point every time.
But... maybe, just maybe. If Sunny one day had the same background knowledge of Cal. Sunny may slowly think of a few extra few things to add or subract from a legions design by the end of this series.
Well we have one video we have recorded but not done for Xor'Lore where she directly read the lore and she really enjoyed it. It's about the space marine organ implementation process but... It may be on the back burner for awhile as it's about an hour long and design vs lore is taking a lot of our time
To address your gripes about Gmoney, first the codex astartes was written as a response to the Heresy to prevent another legion all at once going traitor. I can understand your point about the badab war too but you have to remember he never intended it to be followed for as long as it did, he admit it himself after being revived and I bet top money were he there for the War of the Beast he'd move to reinstate something similar to the legion which lead me to the second point the primaris project. The primaris marine were one unified legion at the start of the indomitus crusade but during it course marines from the same primarch were dispatched to reinforce depleted chapters till by the end of the crusade they were disbanded as a whole.
I’m Still curious how they managed to turn blue and gold into the most vanilla combo ever . Like I mentally know it’s a cool color combo but it just feels so vanilla it hurts.
They stopped being Ultramarine blue and started being cobalt blue instead 😛 - Cal
Their breachers shield also is the closest to the Roman scutum (the typical Roman tower shield), adding more to the Roman theme of the legion
Yeah I know a lot of people have deeper Roman lore knowledge than me but those arrows screamed Roman to me - Cal
Greetings from Texas! Miguel Iglesias' last name at 18:21 is pronounced closer to "E-gleh-see-us". We see it a bit here, but it's Spanish for church. No shame, last names are hard sometimes.
Yeah I saw the name and I was like... I know I am going to say this wrong no matter what 😞 but I still give it a go 😊 - Cal
That's good to know! I felt it was definitely a Christian name but hey I was close enough! Now we know how it is said ~Sunny
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow It's always worth giving it a go!
@@josephplatt7622 Yeah for sure, we have a saying here in Australia in relation to stuff where people aren't confident about stuff we say "Have a go, ya mug" - Cal
Eagles and skulls are often badges of peace and tolerance.....
What? - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow I was joking. They are portrayed as the least awful but still have iconography that references Rome, WW2 Germany, starship troopers, judge dredd.
They are still authoritarian monsters and that comes through the clean look.
Man look at some of the other comments people get very serious about weird things it's hard to know what is going on, on this end - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I don't think it's something you need to worry about, I watch your channel for the design/colour theory, not your moral assessment of space marines.
It's not the fault of those of us who understand satire when others don't.
Ah, yes. The Black Lion. The story of how one person created a simply huge gallery of himself, transferred to Warhammer in the person of his self-fiction character.
Chill, the first art was fan art we were talking about art styles and how we would like to see some variation in art. Sunny asked what's his story and I laughed - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow no problem)
It's just that this is a fairly well-known character in some circles, which has become a kind of meme))
Our focus is design more than anything else - Cal
Cal calling Papa Smurf a hypocrite is a bit of a stretch, especially with the examples he uses. Splitting the legions up into chapters absolutely saved the imperium, because without it people like Huron Blackheart would’ve had the opportunity to gain even more power than he did, being able to corrupt well beyond the sphere of influence he had in the original lore. The primaris, while being a legion sized force, was still split amongst his brother’s chapters instead of hogging them all for his own. The only reason the ultramarines have the most successors is 1: their stable geneseed, 2: their massive numbers before the heresy, and 3: other legions having more complications with creating successors(I.E. Wolf brothers, shattered legions, etc). Almost everything guilliman did, especially in 40k, was in service to the imperium as a whole. He even split power between him and Dante in the 41st millennium, giving Dante power over nihilus. He still has more authority over him as a Primarch of course but Guilliman still tries to maintain the separation of power despite being Lord Regent and one of the few people remotely capable of ruling the entire imperium. The Codex Astartes wasn’t even a strict rule book for the Space Marines, it was a set of guidelines that could be innovated upon to fit different chapters, it was only after he was put in stasis that the Ultramarines started treating it as something you just follow to a T.
Also, guilliman wanted his sons to learn how to be statesman and philosophers so they had some use after the great crusade, since they would probably die if they were to be useless without war. Keep in mind, most of the legions before the heresy were under the assumption that they needed to be of use after the crusade, they didn’t know that most likely they would be culled after they weren’t useful anymore like the Thunder Warriors. He cared for his sons and wanted them to live fulfilling lives in, I really can’t say it’s reasonable to hate him for that.
And finally for Monarchia, Guilliman didn’t go into it with the mentality “why can’t you just follow the rules Lorgar?” He genuinely did not want to burn Monarchia and felt that his father went too far with his judgement, feeling remorse for his actions despite him just following the orders he was given. That’s why he was so eager to rebuild the bonds between the two legions at Calth, but Lorgar betrayed him. Lorgar thought Guilliman hated him, and that’s why he was so cruel to the Ultramarines in that conflict, but he eventually realized that his brother never hated him before then, but it was too late by that point. Guilliman does have his flaws, but I don’t think most of the gripes Cal has with him hold much weight when you read about him in the books and such.
I’d also like to add that Guilliman did not create the Primaris, it was a project Cawl had worked on for 10k years since the heresy. He came to guilliman with the project and framed it as a way to replenish the imperium’s fighting force and bring innovation to the imperium’s stagnation. Guilliman signed off on it because it would help all the Astartes forces across the galaxy. That’s why most chapters either got fresh primaris recruits immediately during or after the indomitus crusade, or the instruction for how to make primaries marines if they couldn’t be given any recruits directly.
Huron only went beyond the codex numbers is because of the their lack of numbers! They needed more resources your example proves the point - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I would have to disagree considering Huron wasn’t going against the Codex because of the lack of numbers, he had a successful chapter, he was in a long standing alliance with other Chapters like the Lamentors, Mantis warriors, etc, and the Maelstrom was full of resources to pull from for him to use. He had full control of the Badab sector, he and the Maelstrom wardens didn’t need much else, they were completely set. The reason he went against the codex is because he wanted more power, hints the name the “Tyrant of Badab.” He only needed more men because he wanted to expand his sphere of influence beyond the Badab sector/Maelstrom and suggested an entire founding to be made to fit his plan. Of course his intention originally were to help the imperium by taking more control over the areas surrounding the sectors of space he already had a hold of, but he was power hungry and still willfully went against the imperium and went above his station because of his own lofty ambitions and goals, eventually leading to him going behind everyone’s back to try and create a new legion of his own.
@mjmj330 notice how they only point out specific parts of comments. They don't even bother to acknowledge that they get called out for getting some stuff wrong, guilliman isn't perfect but he has learned from his mistakes and agree upon that cause unlike them I am not really time poor, sure I have a day job but I read the lore to learn about a lot from 40k, so yes these statements by Cal and Sunny are dismissive its like only what they say is valid in the lore, so in other words this video is made by two tourists point of view not fans who know a great grip of lore, and in case they want to say something they admitted in another comment that they are time poor according to Cal, so yeah as a whole these two's takes are nothing but brain rot, but nice design tweaks as I'll give credit where credit is due
@@stevenm3131 Tourists huh? Okay if you say, so I mean you random unnamed commenter are way more knowledgeable. We only say specific things... You don't say almost like we said we can't cover everything with the Ultramarines due to the amount of lore we have. Seriously I find you people hilarious and sad no matter what is said you always find a way to complain - Cal
I think Sunny's design would suit Veterans/unique units better. Templars have tabards, Dark Angels have robes, don't see why Ultramarines should have togas. But instead of scholars, I would aim for nobility and the ruling class vibe - philosophers are more perceived as a Greek theme, and I would save it for Alpha Legion, which is arguably THE ancient Greece chapter. Because Ultramarines are also both coming from the nobility more often than not, and are ruling class of the Ultramar. It would make sense that veterans would be groomed to take more part in the administration and organization of the governmental affairs, because 1st company veterans are probably number one candidates to both become captains of their companies and accept different honorary and actual positions in the governmental office. And IMHO it should be a longer toga, from the shoulder to the lower legs. Maybe purple even, but I feel like it doesn't really work with blue/gold all that good.
But I personally would like ultramarines to have more elements of roman army to make them a little more distinct. Like, replace every knightly/monk-esque thing with a Roman motif. Leg armor trim ornaments is a good idea. Doesn't make the design too crowded with details but makes them stand out. Also helmets is a good place to start. Some chapters have unique helmets, and I see no reason why Ultramarines can't have their helmets more stylized to look a bit more roman. Not to mention Aquila designs and swords with shields. Romans actually had longer one-handed swords with unique designs - for example, leaf-shaped, so there is a lot of variations other than gladius design. And Bladeguard shields could be totally made more romanesque.
Anyway, great analysis as always guys 😊
I think you bring up some good points, with the toga I did originally wanted to make it longer but It looked like a marine wearing a dress and it didn't fit the vibe in the end, but yes I agree the helmets could be more expressly Roman as well as the weapons. But as we also mentioned that a good amount of the other legions incorporate Roman designs it's hard to make the Ultramarines stand out from the others because of that too ~Sunny
3:37 WAR HOUNDS MENTIONED!!!
We mentioned them more than once in the last video - Cal
Honestly I understand the limitations and I think this is the biggest one yet, I would have still would have liked Cato and Victrix Guard art showcase...
That was probably our longest art section ever, I wanted to show the most important pieces and like with the first piece shown and the "black lion" I wanted to show different art styles. It's hard try to include what we do and more importantly what we do not - Cal
“Roboute… wise Roboute. Roboute with his scratching quills and his plans and his hope. Too understanding too strong too damn perfect.” - Horus Lupercal
Still, the breaking of the Legions was right for the period it was introduced. However, the lack of any changes in the law for over 10,000 years is the reason modern 40k has so many problems.
I would disagree because he was working on the primarius at the same time so in the new lore his talking out of both sides of his mouth. However in the old lore I get how desperate he was, we have done a video on him on our lore channel you may like - Cal
@ The Primaris were an act of reinforcement and improvement for the loyalists. The breaking was to ensure the might of a full legion couldn't be turned into chaos. It is easier to contain a chapter of 1000 than 10,000. In my opinion, Roboute did the right thing after the Hersey the Primaris saved the Blood Angels and their Chapters who were all but decimated during the Devastation of Baal. The lines in the codex which haven't been touched in 10,000 years have since been revised to best suit a modern Imperium.
36:08 whay are subs in russian?
What? That is not us... - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I was taken aback for like a second(i speak russian). every time i see somebody uses it in video i am like "huh neat"
@@andrewkomlyev4877 May be that is why it was in that for you? - Cal
When I was looking for the clip that was one of the first few that popped up so I just used that 😂 I'm glad it was relatable to you though ~Sunny
Redesign-wise, i like the toga, but i think it'd look better in the more stereotypical white toga you imagine romans in. Maybe the toga could also hang below the belt instead of the pteruges?
Green toga looks too much like a salad.
Yyyyeah that's fair. I sorta thought the same thing but people think I give Sunny enough of a hard time - Cal
I think the red eyes just have contrast to the blue.
Yes I agree but it also brings meaning if they intend to or not - Cal
Betrayal...... 'Steal a sandwich'.
Is this the start of the real Heresy?
A bitter bite to far - Cal
1:09:35 that fugly ass *GREEN* toga absolutely has to go. But *A* toga is definitely an option. In Space Marine 2 the tactical has a toga option and it can make some very good looks.
Sunny chose green because they are "green" but I think a white toga could work - Cal
Having read the books i think the view on Guilliman is excessive. He do ask a lot of advise, confrontation and generally tries not to impose himself on others if he can. He is aware of the hypocrisy of the unnumbered sons legions but has to handwave that because shit is fucking going down and there's no time to explain that he did ask cawl for an improved space marine, and didn't expect literally a million (maybe millions) of them in the 41st millenia (there's a book that cover it and heavily implies cawl decided to take guilliman permission after the heresy and went to town making his stuff). He is constantly twitchy at the fucking mess the imperium is in, trying to do the best of what he's got. And in general much of his reforms were apparently approved by both the emperor (his meeting is a tricky affair) and by the captain general of the custodes, yet the imperium is an unwieldy carcass unheeding of his attempts to steer things to a more hopeful future. Also yeah agree the primaries stripped far too much culture from space marines, i would fucking love older marks of power armor retooled for primaries like some novels describe. Are you telling me the fucking charchadons in bumfuck nowhere in the outer dark received a shipment of a 1000 brand new power armors plus all the connected equipment? No, at most they received a bit of stuff and are converting old gear to be compatible.
Personally i fond very stupid the decision of 'old gear don't fit space marines anymore'. Space marines always had haight variation, and primaries aren't even on the taller end of the firstborn height spectre. They would have been 100% able to adjust old equipment to primaries height.
I fucking love mark II and III power armor.
Also cato sicarious went through PTSD and currently in lore he's nowhere near so bombastic as before.
To be honest I don't think the primarius fit lore wise I think that they were always intended to be true scale marines, but someone in management said then how do we sell them. It's part of the lore now and I would like the idea you described with primarius proportions but I doubt we will get that. Despite not liking the new lore I always loved the minis... Okay maybe not the nerf gun guys - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow there is currently somewhat of a shift in the philosophy, the term primaris marine is kind of getting dropped and some firstborn equipment pieces are being added back to the space marines. I think the 'introductory' phase is now over and they can merge the two lines. Also yes the idea of primaries likely stem from the need to update the entire mini range to a less gofy one.
The design itself is fine, it's pretty distinct power armour, still i would love truescale old power armor marks.
As for their introduction i don't hate the lore but the suddennes they were thrusted in. Cawl is a great character and i love him, but they could have at least hinted at things working in the background before the 8th edition dropped. Production of standard marine gear dropping from many forgeworlds, material shipments redirected, weird mechanicus fleet appearing and disappearing... I like when warhammer has tons of things going on disconnected from the main characters of the setting and i think gw should lean heavily into it. Obscure chapters, the undergrowth of xeno civilisations living hiding from the imperium, mysterious relics from ages past... the galaxy need more unexplained and mystical leaning material where unorthodox, eccentric and forgotten actors lurks and act within.
On that subject i absolutely adore the dark coil serie and what the author has created. Read that shit if you can, it's soo good.
I will try but we are very time poor at the moment - Cal
I was trhere to homebrew a pure American legion? Like there champter master and gead liberaten get the titles of president and vice president. What are some fun US-American only concepts that would work for a chapter. Also the mother is black and cyan with a star for the chapter symbol?
I don't know of any off the top of my head - Cal
Miguel E-Gle-See-As.
Thanks - Cal
69th like, nice!
Nice - Cal
Mmm, I thought that the art doesn't convey all the ultra-depression that the Ultramarines are famous for. For that is better to read the books))
The first art which one or in general - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow in general.
Fools! The Ultramarines are perfect in every way....! Absolutely perfect I tell you! It's like trying to shadow box with God!
Ok... - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowMy comments are meant for humor and to feed the remorseless algorithm and never to be taken seriously... 😊
People can be strange with comments and very serious 😬 so yeah I stand by my "Ok..." 🤣😂🤣 - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnowyes, they can... that's why I felt the need to come back and follow up with an addendum: "Please don't take this as a serious opinion - I'm just trying to help but I'm not passionate enough to comment either way about the ultramarines in a serious fashion and can't put in "that work" but I am trying to help!""
@@bukharajones All good man, we try and respond in kind to people, people who are kind, we respond with kindness, people who are analytical and so on and if people are rude we are rude right back. So you are all good! I was just a little confused ha ha - Cal