Why didn't Elrond push Isildur into the Cracks of Doom?
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
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"I can't throw the ring into the fire, but I can throw you!" *Elrond yeets Isildur into the fire*
😢
Someone needs to use AI to create this edit! 🤣
@@therongjrPLEASE 😂
@@therongjrPeople can draw...
LOL!
This! Is! Arda!
Best comment 😂
@@Dionysos_____Alters Thank you **
😂
😂😂😂
Phenomenal
So Gandalf KNEW Frodo couldn't destroy the ring at the Mountain. "Just give him a little push, Sam"
It was only ever a fool's hope.
But it was the only hope they had, and Olorin of the Maiar knew from personal experience that there was a greater power than the Lords of the West, whose agent he was, in whom he ultimately placed his trust. That divine providence's subtle influence was seen in the unlikeliest of chances - the Ring finding its way to Bilbo - and ultimately the dark power turned to its own undoing as Gollum's obsession with the One Ring (and possibly the force of Frodo's Ring-backed binding upon him) led to its fall into the Fire.
I actually think Sam considered this on their way to Mt. Doom. He saw with his own eyes that the Ring was overpowering Frodo. Sam is way smarter than he thinks he is; I feel like he must’ve realized Frodo couldn’t let go of the Ring and tried to think of a Plan B. It’s possible that he even realized if Sauron were to win, he wouldn’t give Frodo a quick painless death. Thus my theory is that he, Sam, intended to throw himself and Frodo into the Cracks of Doom to not only destroy the Ring, but also save Frodo from Sauron’s torture chambers. This is a book theory, mainly; the movie indicates Sam didn’t know Frodo couldn’t let it go, which honestly makes little sense to me. Sam is hopeful but he’s not blind. In the book he doesn’t beg Frodo “just throw it in!” he doesn’t say anything when Frodo puts the Ring on - as if part of himself knew this was inevitable. Would he have actually been able to go through with his Plan B? I doubt it, considering it would’ve been an act of will to destroy the Ring which was impossible. But still I think he would’ve tried, if Gollum hadn’t shown up. And of course he would’ve made zero effort to keep himself alive; if he were to attempt it, then he would be intending to let himself fall to his death with Frodo.
"I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you (and fling you into the fire)!"
Little bit of hope, and a whole lot of divine intervention. Thanks Gollum for playing your role perfectly. Really help a Maiar out.
I'll say this: If Sam was determined to cast Frodo into the fire, as a last resort, he'd go with him.
“Hey, Isildur, come check out this super cool penny I found. It’s right over there by the very edge of the lava.”
Gullibldur
I have the high ground Isildur.
Things would have gone very differently if Patches had been there that day.
@@RelativelyBestDark souls mentioned
“Hey, what’s Galadriel doing down there, and oh look, she’s completely naked.”
And Elrond comes in with a folding chair! Things are getting crazy in the rumble of the ring!
This needs to be higher up in the comments
I’ll never forget when Elrond body slammed Andre the Giant
🤣
"And that's the bottom line, because Elrond says-so!" *Glass breaks*
lmao
This is a great point that almost every casual fan misses. No one would willingly destroy the Ring. It’s one of the reasons Sauron is taken by surprise; he can’t conceive of anyone even trying.
It's even mentioned (if only in passing, in the movies) when Gandalf tells Aragorn: "The idea that someone would seek to destroy the Ring has not yet entered their DARKEST dreams." And it's exactly right. Sauron was so lax on Mt Doom's security in the first place, because there was never any need for it, in his mind. And he was right... until that idiot Gollum intervened. lol
Gimli literally tried with his axe.
i never considered this. his fear was never that it was going to be destroyed, he was just not too happy that he didn't have it with him.
@@AlphaQHardI believe it’s about being in mount doom, the ring is at its absolute strongest there and no one could actually destroy it there
@jacob4920 Sauron: I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids!
The way I've rationalized it was if Elrond had enough darkness inside him to try and push Isildor into Mount Doom that same darkness would've been enough for the ring to overwhelm Elrond to take it for himself.
Really, reaaally good thought there mate
Probably one of the better explanations I have heard.
Bingo. There are two possible outcomes to such a struggle. Either Isildur escapes (possibly by putting the ring on), or Elrond takes it for himself. I guess a third outcome is that they accidentally go over the edge with the ring like Frodo and Gollum did in the movie version.
Plus you´d need to be quite the asshole to get the idea and execute a murder on short notice, most people probably would take a bit to get to that point, even if it´s totally justified...and by then Isildur was on his way out already.
Humans and Elves are really really different in the LotR lore, especially in the influence that the ring has in them. What would corrupt a Human wouldn't corrupt an Elf that easily
Gimli trying to simply destroy the ring with his axe was a genius moment to add for the films.
Great introduction and characterization for the dwarves in general and Gimli in particular, practical and straightforward, ready for action, yet not as learned as Gandalf or the elves.
It also shows, not tells, the audience that the ring does indeed have supernatural power and cannot be destroyed by ordinary means. The image of the axe being destroyed and the ring remaining unscathed is very powerful.
It assuages a potential nagging distraction to audiences thinking “can’t they just destroy it? It’s right there, can’t they at least try it?”
I think it definitely outweighs the downside of making it seem like deciding to destroy the ring is easier than it is; they showed that aspect of the ring very clearly in a dozen other different ways.
The Dwarves dont act like that in the books. It is something that makes sense only within the movies, isolated from the books.
Sure, but it doesn’t work in canon, they tried to make this “men are morally weaker” thing in the films, that’s just not there in the books.
No.
@@TheKonkamanwould’ve
I hate that scene tbh, like most Gimli scenes in the movies. Gimli isn't heroic in that scene, he's a buffoon. He acts rashly and without thinking and ends up on his rear on the ground, looking around eyes wide like a moron. It's the complete opposite to how he is in the book
Even in the movie version, it has to be remembered that Isildur was no common man. A fight between Elrond and him would have been close enough before Isildur had the ring.
Indeed, you want to fight the dude that killed Sauron?
Exactly. Isildur was descendant of both elves AND Maiar.
Isildur has the ring. He would have won a fight.
Elrond would have a lot of explaining to do to the armies of men about how he just HAD to push their new king into lava.
Even if Elrond pushed Isildur, the INTENT would be to destroy the ring. That would make it impossible to do already. Thats the reason why Elrond in the movies didn't try and take the ring and destroy it.
Elrond: "It should have ended that day .... but evil was allowed to endure."
Gandalf: "So ... WHO allowed evil to endure?"
Elrond: "wut?"
Gandalf: "I mean, you were RIGHT there amiright?"
Elrond: "um..."
Haha, I would've loved to see this played out. Elrond getting destroyed by a logical question, yes.
“*Allowed* by whom…?” 😂
💢SNAP💢
Elrond: “…why you gotta bring up old sh1t?”
@@KermitOfWarNow I imagine it as a RUclips video: “Gandalf DESTROYS Elrond with FACTS and LOGIC” with one of those super obnoxious thumbnails.
Consider this conversation between Frodo and Gandalf in the Shire:
Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.'
Gandalf: 'Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.'
A key quote,
Sparing Gollum was necessary for the Fellowship's success, Gandalf was right that he had a [critical] part to play.
Wasn't that conversation in Moria, at least in the movies? Perhaps in the books it was different, but it's too long ago for me to remember.
@@pankratos5017 I think it did make it into the extended cut in the mines, yes, but it is a conversation in the Shire just after Gandalf returns and tells Frodo he has to go.
@@Argoshjust finished another watch of the theatrical version and these conversation happens in Moria.
One of the key themes of the Silmarillion is that, while Elves are bound by fate, the choices of Men can shape and change fate. It was the betrayal by men that triggered the downfall of the elven kingdoms of Beleriand, and the support of men which enabled them to endure so long as they did. It was a man who reclaimed a Silmaril from the Iron Crown, and it was a man's decision to preserve the One Ring that defined the Third Age.
Elves affected the story too. All that business of the silmarils, which shaped the history of Arda.
The fate you refer to is the fate of men after the end of the world.
They are shaping that all the time. elves are not, because they are always bound to this world.
What happens to the elves after the world ends, is unknown.
@@hoodatdondar2664 The creation of the Silmarils, and all that came of it, was still under the authority of the Valar to some degree - the Doom of Mandos was laid upon the Elves as a natural law rather than being a threat that was then enforced by actions of the Valar (or through direct intervention by Illuvatar, as happened in the Akallabeth).
It's remarkable to me that Gandalf gathers the fellowship to venture Mount Doom to destroy the ring, despite knowing full well that none amongst the fellowship was capable of destroying it once there. Overcoming the overwhelming feeling of hopelessness would probably be intolerable to anything less than a Maiar. As some have noted, Gandalf probably has some level of connection to forces greater than himself and Sauron, that made him see some shred of hope, where none sensibly lay.
Ah I see you have written the same idea I just got.
Its crazy to send out the Fellowship based on their knowledge at that time that destroying the Ring would not be possible
I believe Sam could but he couldn’t destroy Frodo.
It's a SERIOUS plot hole in the whole story. Frodo couldn't even do it well before the ring had taken him. Gandalf literally proves that before any of the quest ever begins. The fact is......the elves and Valar in the east WOULD have had the ability to destroy it. They were far greater than Sauron, that's where the ring should have gone. The idea that that path was being watched is silly because elves were going that way every day without issue and Sauron had not idea where the ring was early on. It could have made just as interesting a story with a more logical plot.
@@MrBottlecapBill You could argue that in the end, it *was* the Valar that destroyed the Ring, in that they shaped fate to take a hand by Gollum's attack on Frodo. That's consistent with their causing the eagles to get involved at key moments. That would plug your gap, I think.
There were lots of fell creatures living in the ocean capable of wrecking a ship. If they had tried to carry the Ring to Valinor that way, I imagine the Ring could have summoned one them to intercept the mission. The creature swallows the Ring, the Ring makes it go crazy (similar to the werewolf that swallowed the Silmaril), the creature beaches itself on Middle-Earth, and eventually the Ring gets re-found that way and makes its way to Sauron. That might have been the Ring's "plan" in such a case.
@@debshaw680No, Sam couldn’t. It’s literally stated in the story. Absolutely no one can. Only a being like a Valar, Eru or Tom Bombadill could destroy the ring. It’s not about being a good person or strong of will, it’s about the natural limits of human nature.
It's not Game of Thrones, in Tolkien's writings the good guys are actually good. Elrond's not going to betray his ally in the moment of their victory even if it WAS the smart thing to do, which you make it very clear it wasn't. Great video!
If it was the smart thing to do, it would be because it was the good thing to do. Goodness sometimes requires sacrifice and "evil" acts.
@@peelsreklaw Sacrifice, yes; evil acts, no, not in Tolkien's world-view.
@@peelsreklawWell, no actually, first, it was impossible, he couldn’t have done it. Second, LOTR is specifically a story that tries to contradict this notion of yours, if Elrond had tried he would’ve started a war, killed a friend and failed to destroy the ring, and proceeeded to get corrupted by it, dooming middle earth. It is humility, patience and goodness that allows them to win in the end.
@@peelsreklaw Nope. The road to hell is paved with good intentions....
@@lothara.schmal5092
How if nobody was around to witness it?
The thought of Elrond dropping Isildur into the Cracks of Doom with various wrestling moves, such as a Fisherman's Suplex, a Choke Slam or a Stone Cold Stunner, had me in stitches!
How bout a Manitoban Judo Chop?
I prefer to think of a hot Tombstone piledriver
Drop kick from behind
I think, in the context of the film, that scene does a fantastic job of showing just how powerful the ring actually is. Years of defiance against Sauron and Mordor had led up to that battle, and it was a ruthless one. Isildur witnesses the death of his own father at Sauron's hands, as well as, presumably, the death of many other companions as well, not to mention the demise of Númenor itself. When he retrieves the ring, he likely only had it very briefly. Lets assume two hours tops, from the time he picked it up until he reached the interior of the mountain. And then, after everything he had seen and been through, everything that he had had the resolve to face, it turned him in an instant; broke his judgement and resolve, the judgement and resolve of a character no less heroic than his descendant, Aragorn. It highlights just how impressive Frodo's resolve truly is, even if it faltered at the end. Fantastic scene.
Dear Robert, I appreciate your video. Thank you for discussing this subject.
Something I feel gets overlooked when discussing Elrond is the length of his life. Isildur was over 200 years old at the final battle. He had tremendous strength of body, moral fiber, and wisdom. He was the latest of a long line of Dunedain, loyal to the eldar and the Valar. He could trace his ancestry directly to Elrond’s brother, Elros. At that time, Elrond was over 3000 years old. He had seen the Noldor make war upon the Teleri. He actually knew the sons of Feanor. He witnessed the Valar make war upon Melkor. He survived the devastation of Beleriand. I am not doubting any of Isildur’s qualities, but his perspective and his commitment to the fight paled beside Elrond’s.
Elronds mother-in-law was born in Valinor. Elrond was the eldest male of the house of Hador, not Aragorn. He is the oldest male descendent of Elwe, not Aragorn. He is the eldest male descendent of Finwe in Middle-earth. Elrond is 3/8 Edain (not the Dunedain), 9/16 Eldar (1/32 Vanyar, 7/32 Noldor, 5/16 Teleri), and 1/16 Ainur (Angelic). He was Gil-galad’s herald. He came to wield one of the Three. He had plenty of time to know his course of action, if it ever came to him. Just like Faramir, he wouldn’t pick it up if he saw it lying on the ground. And just like Farramir, he would not even ensnare an orc with a lie.
Therefore, I believe it impossible for Elrond, as the descendent of elven kings, lords of men, and even angels to murder Isildur. And many would suffer for that decision, but the blame is not on Elrond. The blame is on Sauron.
So, as Aragorn’s foster father, Elrond prepared Aragorn’s heart against the choice of Isildur.
I think Elrond's love for his brother's descendants were too great to do something like pushing isildur in to the fire.
@@박찬우-k5p5d Completely agree - Elrond would view Isildur (and then later) Aragorn as a (many times great) grand-nephew. No one is off’ing their great/grand/nephews.
Don't forget that there is little the Valar revile more than kin slaying. Isildur being a direct descendant of his brother, if he killed him he would stain his soul and he would be banished from Valinor.
Remember the kinslayer wars?
Isildur is a descendant of Elrond's brother isn't he?
It never occurred to him to do that so was stunned when Isildur refused to destroy the ring
Yep, Isildur was Elrond's nephew 30-something times removed.
How?
@@bman3794 Elrond is an immortal elf whilst Elrond's brother is someone who gave up his immorality to become human.
Yes, a detail easily tossed away when Aragorn marry his aunt... XD
@@IIARROWS aunt at the 59th or so generation.
There is a lot to chew on with Frodo willing the destruction of the ring only to have put in back in his pocket. I think it reveals much of what the ring really represents.
That’s a pretty hilarious turn of phrase. Gollum certainly had Frodo’s finger to chew on.
So what's the point sending Frodo to Mordor to destroy it, if he can't even try to destroy it in his own house???
What people forget is that Isildur was headed to Rivendell to ask Elrond what to do with the Ring when he was ambushed by orcs. If that had never happened, the Ring might have been destroyed then. Elrond would have given the same council: destroy it, and Isildur might have listened. With the Dark Lord vanquished and his armies scattered there would have been no one to stop Isildur and a couple hundred of his men from tossing the Ring into the fire.
I actually wondered for a while why he didn't head there through the Gap of Rohan, which still part of the territory of Arnor. Then it was in Unfinished Tales where it mentipned that the war with Sauron had made it so they had few horses, and he needed to get to Rivendell ASAP. The Gladden Fields were a shorter route and he assumed that orc patrols were gone.
The orc patrols weren't gone.
Pretty sure Robert will be touching on that in his "Isildur deserved better" video.
I feel that even back then, after council and with a cool head he still would've fell under the ring's desire to persist. If his blood was boiling after defeating Sauron and ring was taken as a trophy, with seeds of future possible power as a root, then after hearing Elrond and with a decision to destroy it, which the ring would've felt in the heart that it seemingly captured, he would've come to a "calculated and calm" "pragmatic" decision to hold onto it. No biggie, Sauron is destroyed, I am no fool, I'll hold onto it, rebuild with it and see that it doesn't fall into anyone's hands. Basically the ring would make you rationalise any kind of reason not to destroy it. It is just that kind of thing.
Send a freaking raven
lol no it wouldn’t have 😂 it’s like the whole point of the ring. No one can destroy it intentionally.
The Idea of Elrond drop kicking him into the Volcano is hilarious to think about lol
The scene earlier in the book when Bilbo decides to leave it behind, and he keeps finding he puts the Ring back into his pocket without knowing. Was just reading that chapter, and it struck me that the Ring was probably the cause for Bilbo's sudden desire to go wandering again. It was chance that Bilbo dropped the Ring in Bag's End, which was another allusion to Eru causing things to happen against the Ring's will.
In the end, only Bilbo and Sam were able to give up the Ring (and Sam was the only one who did it completely selflessly).
Also that would be kinslaying. Which never goes well in Middle Earth.
Good thing the Teleri weren't in Middle Earth when they asked for it
And considering that Arnor was next door to Rivendell... Yeah. Elf extinction.
Jaime lancaster
Eh not really
They’re about 20 or so times removed , meaning they they’re as related as you and anyone who lives in the same area as you
@@ItsButterBean1020 Elrond's brother's descendant? That's pretty closely related. The only reason it doesn't seem like it is because men are mortal and elves are immortal. I promise you nobody in my area is a direct descendant of my brother who isn't also closely related to me.
Human army: "Where is our king Isildur?
Elron: "Sadly, he slipped and fell into lava while holding the ring"
It would be a rather short story if he did
The true answer.
No it would be the story of Men vs Elves, you think Elrond can kill the King of Gondor and Men won't start a war vs Elves?
Well it would still be a long story, just a different one that focused on different characters at a different time period :)
For those that don't know a "weregild" a English medieval custom where you can claim financial compensation for the killing of a family member.
@@timurjack8773 Who's going to tell Men that Elrond did it? As far as everyone else knows Isildur just fell into the volcano.
This kind of problem with people being unable to destroy the ring is exactly where a surprise like Gollum came in handy. Gollum was clearly rejected by the ring after many years. The ring itself through Frodo told Gollum it would throw him into a fire if he touched it again. When Gollum touched it again the ring had to follow through on its own promise to destroy Gollum. In destroying Gollum it also destroyed itself. Surprise! The ring kind of accidentally doomed itself.
Did not think that might be the ring speaking when Frodo told gollum he would order him into the fire. Something to think about.
Interesting theory.
@@gregorylatta8159 not exactly a theory. I think this is something Eru foresaw. But because it was something that might yet be, it was not something he could have said was definitely going to happen the way it did. But Gollum was part of what Eru foresaw. So it was not set in stone what would happen. But Eru’s power to predict the future pretty good. But to keep Gollum a surprise Eru did not quite say what it was Gollum would do. So evil did not know what was coming.
That's not it. Tolkien said it himself. It's just Eru. One Ring was so powerful in compelling obedience not even maiar could resist its will in order to destroy it.
Entire sequence of all ages of Middle Earth is predetermined by Eru. Mortals have free will to make that end result happen, if they can. In that case Eru keeps their hands off the situation. If they can't, then Eru makes it so.
Eru destroyed Númenor when they tried to break the divine plan by sailing into Undying Lands, very blatantly I might add. In case of Gollum, Eru just first set up the stage by making sure Frodo, Sam and Gollum would reach Mount Doom and then gave Gollum a little bump in the end after his scuffle with Frodo to destroy the Ring. None of the actors on Eru's play were capable of that by themselves.
Because he is not a murderer.
Also Elrond had time to get Isildur to change his mind.
And indeed, his patience was well spent. The brief period between Isildur taking the Ring and heading to Elrond with it was barely a blink of an eye to a elf. Elrond was right... it's just fate and a band of orcs had a different plan.
I think it shows his intelligence also. He definitely didn’t want to kill the literal leader of humans.
@@xRoofkoreanx As opposed to the figurative one? Who would that be and why would you think that we would've thought of him otherwise?
@@r0bw00d Thank you for interpreting that grammar-forsaken sentence literally!
@@xRoofkoreanx
Indeed. Plus, Elrond has premonition abilities, right? He can basically read/see people's future or what will be, but what he sees isn't the certain path. So, his actions in Mt.Doom were his own. He saw Isildor's fate & he just let it happen...
Exactly! This is where many people are deluded by the strange comments in the movies such as "when the strength of men failed". Elrond had some gift of foresight and his intuition told him that it had best be destroyed. But he didn't yet understand how the Ring would affect anyone but Sauron wielding it, and he couldn't have done it himself either.
A lot of people, no thanks to Jackson, don't realize no one could destroy The One Ring willingly except maybe Sauron (its creator). It literally took Frodo's curse on Gollum at the end, and hallowed by Eru, to achieve that goal. God had to intervene to set right what Melkor and then Sauron made corrupt.
Nah there’d be plenty of people besides Sauron. The Valar, Eru, Bombadil, probably Eonwe.
@@crabberdabberye - The Valar aren't going to directly intervene as its a Middle-Earth problem, so they don't/can't do it. Did you not read where I said 'God had to intervene'? Bombadil wouldn't leave his own land, so it's not something he could/would do. And Eonwe faces the same problem Gandalf does: pity to right the Evils of the World.
@@crabberdabberyethose aren’t people, they’re entities above the pay grade of the story lol. No member of the common races or Maiar could.
Not Frodo’s curse, it was the Ring that cursed Gollum using Frodo’s tongue. It’s own cruelty caused it to destroy itself. The irony.
@@Wesley_Youre_a_Rabbit I would also point out Gollum promised Frodo X, Y & Z. He essentially made an oath and oaths are a pretty big deal in the Legendarium (see Fëanor & sons, mountain people & Isildur). Bad things happen when you break an oath.
The compounding issue here is summarized in Frodo's warning to him. That the ring is more treacherous than him and that IT mastered Gollum long ago. The ring's hold over Golum lead him to break his oath in the end and the retribution for that offense came swiftly.
Next video: Why didn't Elrond make a running tackle so both he and Isildur would fall into the Cracks of Doom?
Spear tackles are illegal in the Arda League, the ref would have removed him from the field
Only way elrond could beat isildur
@@347Jimmy He would have to sit on the sidelines of reality with Morgoth.
6:53 It's funny to think if Elrond pushes Isildur off the edge, watches him fall to his death, and then as he's about to walk away looks down and sees the ring sitting on the ground because it slipped out of Isuldur's hand at the last second.
That's such a dark thought, I love it.
Yeah, I think we would've had an entirely separate reason why it's called the Last Alliance...
As for the semi-literal Royal Rumble at the Cracks of Doom, though, I feel like Elrond would be able to do ol' Great-Grandpa Beren proud.
Just forget the armies a few yards over there...
I always thought too that even in the movie - Elrond isn't a casual murderer of a friend. They made him stunned at the action, I think.
and kinsman, Isildur was a descendant of Elrond's twin brother Elros.
Very good points made. I've been saying this for years! I didn't know if that scene was book cannon or not. So thanks for clearing that up. I like Elrond a lot more now.
I think even then Elrond knew the destruction of the one would be devastating for Rivendell and Lorien. That weighty decision combined with fear of even handling this altogether evil object that had just come off of Sauron's finger, not to mention the ensuing war with Gondor, would be enough to deter even the most rash and brazen of decisions regarding the ring.
This.
It's important to mention the reason for the scene with Elrond and Isildur in the movie, is also to 'show and not tell' (although it tells at the same time). In the beginning of the film Galadriel says "...the race of Men, who above all else desire power." The scene shows how men desire power above all else, and therefor the Ring is easily able to corrupt Isildur. But it also portrays a sense of dread to the audience, a feeling that despite a great victory the evil of the Ring endures. Had Isildur simply being shown to bring the Ring home as an heirloom, the opening of the film wouldn't have conveyed the same feeling darkness in light of a victory.
Isildur wasn't a random guy, he was the King of Gondor after Elendil's death, so of course Elrond couldn't kill the King of Gondor otherwise it would be a war between Men and Elves.
Nah. Just a lame excuse.
Waste of a good book
He wasn’t just the King of Gondor he was the High King of the Numenorians in Exile. That includes both Arnor and Gondor. Lindon would have gotten sacked in a matter of days.
@crabberdabberye Spot on! Also, isn't he the leader of those Numenoreans who stayed faihful & resisted Sauron's manipulation & corruption; & isn't he the Prince who saved the White Tree from the destruction of Numenor & brought its seed to Gondor? That alone marks him out as someone you don't just push into a volcano without facing consequences ........
@@DaroffApFireIt is a lame excuse, but it’s not a needed one. They weren’t ever there in the books to begin with
So, my understanding, albeit I could be wrong, is that no good intention or good will could destroy the ring. Only something even worse than the evil power of the ring could overtake it. And it happened to be GREED for that power. Gollam destroyed it not intentionally, obviously, he wanted to possess the ring, so much so that he was willing to die to wield it even for one more second.
That's some good drug.
“Cracks of Doom”? Sounds like when the ringwraiths moon you.
What a mental image that is 😂
😂
You made good points. My thought at first was that Elrond and the other elves, in there heart of hearts didn't want the ring destroyed, as that would lessen their own magic from their own rings. Which would mean they would have had to go to Valinor earlier, instead of tarrying a little while longer. Of course this all depends on how tied their 3 was tied to the one, and if the one, by its mere existence, made the 3 multiplied. They were already starting to head to the West much before the LOR, so more than likely it was more correlation, not causation. I would like to believe they would have destroyed the one, even if it meant loss of much of their magic and glory.
Wergild, which translates to "man price" in Old English, was a legal concept in Germanic and Anglo-Saxon law that established a monetary value for a person's life. This value was paid as compensation to the victim's family or kindred if the person was killed or injured, or as a fine for other crimes. The amount paid was based on the victim's rank. In some cases, part of the wergild was also paid to the king or lord.
And once England was Christianized, part (the 'wite') went to the Church.
I'd love a video with your take on what would have happened if Isildur had survived the ambush and reached Rivendel.
They get a 500 year head start on the quest to destroy it, and Sauron doesn't have time to regain his strength. LOTR: Easy Mode.
But...Gandalf hasn't met Bilbo yet and he wouldn't have the idea to let a Halfling carry it. So the Quest might still fail!
@@thekiss2083It’s not quite easy mode because they still can’t do it. Like how do they even manage it? The ring, like Sauron, would just corrupt the entire council formed to destroy it.
@@lothara.schmal5092 Maybe. It did not the Council in Rivendell.
But there is peril in every course of action.
Welcome to Middle Earth!
As a matter of fact, welcome to our earth.
@@hoodatdondar2664 It didn’t corrupt anyone of the very virtuous people there because none of them took it. If they formed a council that actually had to carry the ring and deal with internal politics it’d quickly destroy itself. Gandalf was very wise in entrusting it to Frodo, someone who could resist it best and not involve him in any of the political matters of the big figures there too much.
@@lothara.schmal5092 sure, but the previous comment just said ‘the ring would corrupt the council’, when it didn’t.
Recall too, that Gandalf was prepared to go with Frodo, right to the crack of doom. It’s the possession that does it.
My dad read LotR to my brothers and me when we were young, but I had forgotten that passage between Gandalf and Frodo. The way Tolkien describes Frodo's perspective is kind of chilling. Having only just touched the ring, never used it, unaware of what it was or the power it contained, he was completely helpless against it, so much so that he didn't even realized it had overcome him until he found that it was back in his pocket.
The more I watch this channel the more I want to see if I can lay my hands on a copy of the books and read them for myself as an adult. The films are great, but these videos are making it starkly obvious that either by design or accident, Jackson watered down the story pretty significantly to fit it into the movies.
Sadly, that is the fate of most novels. I have yet to find a movie that is as good or as thorough as the book.
Movies are only a few hours while Books take days to read
I've been thinking about this since I was a kid😂
Thank you robert
Elrond:“The Lannisters send their regards“
*pushes Isildur into Mt.Doom*
This will get hate but I honestly prefer the movie version of this. It's more dramatic and it effectively sets up the ring's corrupting influence and its ability to save itself from destruction. And Elrond blaming Isildur's inability to destroy it on humanity's weakness isn't a plothole - Elves are not all-knowing or infallible, and Elrond probably believed he would've had the strength to destroy the ring himself.
I've said on at least another of your videos Robert that Isildur is greatly maligned by the Jackson films, and by many who perhaps ought to know better. He was corrupted by the ring, he was greedy, he was weak… No, after the battle was won, Isildur (possibly hearing the whispers of the ring already and possibly not) though he should keep the ring as a soldier might keep a German officer's Luger pistol after WWII. It might be bent to do some good even! His friends said they thought he shouldn't, but he'd already made up his mind. They didn't press him on it too much because it was his trophy, his victory, and he was their friend.
Elrond even conceded to his friend that if anyone _could_ turn the ring from darkness and hate, it was Isildur. This is hardly the thing a person would say if they found that the strength of his people had failed. Just the opposite! He saw strength in men, in this man in particular, that was greater than he himself and his kin possessed. And like Aragorn who was able to safely use a palantir when even Saruman could not (even confronting Sauron directly with it), Isildur was able to safely use the ring for quite some time trying to match its will against his own. He did not prevail, but likewise he did not fail either-he saw that his friends had been right. And so he rode to Elrond for advice in how the thing should be unmade. The ring could not stop him from going, but when the ring had its chance, it betrayed and left him so that he might be slain.
Isildur is not the failure of the strength of man, he is testament to the strength man is capable of.
But even he might have been unable to unmake the ring had he carried it to the end. Who could? Impossible. But that was the only chance in the end.
Underrated post
One important point was that between the time Sauron fell and we see Isildur with the ring, about to be ambushed by orcs, over 10 years had passed. In the Lore Isildur was becoming increasingly concerned about the ring, and, having repaired much of the damage from the war with Sauron, had decided to take it to Rivendell (Imladris) where Elrond could advise him on what to do about it. Orcs ambushed his small party (20-50 men) emroute, beside the Great River, Anduin. This happened near the Gladden Fields south and east of Lothlorien, where, 2000 years later, the Hobbit kin ancestors, the Riverfolk, specifically Smeagol and Deagol, spent a day fishing....
Robert, it truly amazes me that so many people are fans of Peter Jackson more than of Tolkien and have never even read the books themselves.
It’s truly a crazy time we live in now
After watching the movies, which I loved, I struggled with this very question and had to go back and read how it was in the books. The conclusion I came to was that if the ring was taken by violence, in that moment, the ring would be at full power, taking advantage of the emotional state required for murder. In effect, the ring taken by violence would allow no "saving throw" to resist its effects. Then there is the suggestion by Gandalf that the more powerful one is, the more powerful the ring's influence is. That said, once Gandalf is starring at the ring at Frodo's house, he could have taken a different course. His plan was a long shot.
Elrond: cast it into the fire
Us: CAST HIM INTO THE FIRE WITH IT
If the movies were done by the showrunners of game of thrones, elrond would have simply forgot 😅
If they were done by the showrunners of Disney Star Wars, some girlboss character would have tossed it in while delivering a lecture to all the white elves & men about their privilege ........
If it was done by the showrunners of GoT then it would have happened well before the end of the film, and some other character would have come in to the scene, possibly someone random like Arwen, and just plucked the ring from around Frodo’s neck and casually flicked it into the flames in a very non climactic way
If they were done by the showrunners of Foundation, some person with foresight would have completely known from the beginning what would happen in the story and told the Fellowship what to do in every scene to survive every danger and thus they basically speedrun their adventure and are already at the end of the movie in Mordor but then it is revealed that the person with foresight actually didn't have foresight and just made it all up and it just luckily worked out, then they throw the Ring into the fire and the End.
@@hellas_craterso, Galadriel in ROP? 😂
@Parocha Haven't seen it, but from everything I've heard, yeah that sounds about right!!😂
"We all thought it!"
I never thought about this, I just took it for granted that this is just how it should be.
If Gandalf knew all along Frodo was not able to destroy the ring even in Bag's End and actually no one would ever be, and The One Ring would be most powerful in Mt. Doom, what was his plan for destroying it? Did he have just "a fools hope" that something else would take a play in destroying it?
This is kind of hinted at with his whole 'Gollum may still have a part to play' speech in Moria.
Pretty much.
He was also present at the creation of the world's story in the Music of the Ainur, so, while he would have forgotten, or missed, most of the nuance and detail, the broad strokes of the future were known to him, and some hint of how things had to play out may have remained to him.
Ultimately, his plan was to get the Ring to where it could be destroyed and trust that something would come up to make it possible.
Basically
@@kholsinger JRR _did_ say somewhere in one of his letters that Frodo didn't fail because his mission was to get the ring to Mount Doom, not destroy it--Robert mentioned it in one of his videos. I haven't read the letter, so I don't know what it says was meant to happen afterward.
Frodo’s mission was to carry the ring to mount doom, not destroy it, destroying it was in God’s hands, and so He did.
And this is why it took Gollum breaking his oath to Frodo to bring about the circumstances that resulted in the Ring's destruction.
I forgot gollums oath, thanks.
Yes, oathbreakers have bad luck in middle earth. For one reason or other.
He didn't do it because neither of them were at the Cracks Of Doom.
One does not simply rewrite Tolkien.
Which is what the video also said lol
Cue the Sean Bean meme
Unless your Amazon
Not rewrite - adapt. In the book, the story begins in the Shire and a couple dozen pages into it we eventually learn about the whole ordeal with the Lord of the Rings. That wouldn't've worked for the movies. In the books you can just explain all the reader needs to know by the means of dialog, but this approach would only harm the movie. So we start by establishing what the Ring is, what it does and where it came from.
@@kikosawa They did not need to put the scene in the crack.
There's also a thematic element to this: you cannot destroy evil with a fall to evil, evil must destroy itself.
For Elrond, or any other good and decent person, to betray someone by casting them into the fire along with the Ring, that just...doesn't fit with the kind of narrative Tolkien tells. It's hard to even speculate what would happen in those circumstances; for such a thing to happen, Lord of the Rings would have to be an entirely different story.
Gollum, on the other hand, has already fallen to evil. By claiming the ring for himself and then falling over the side, evil succumbs to its ultimate vulnerability - evil is a self consuming force, harming many others, of course, but burning through itself in the process. (See WWII for a very relevant real world example.) In a way, Gollum represents that aspect of the nature of evil in his moment of triumph and his death - the singularity of purpose that blinds oneself to very real and present dangers, the hubris of what comes thereafter.
My assumption was that Elrond didn’t want to start another war. The Elves and men just barely defeated Sauron and suffered terrible costs to do it.
So killing a member of Gondor’s Royal family (not to mention Gondor’s next king) could very well spark a whole new war between men and elves. A war that neither side could afford.
Could be. Someone else asked: why not just give Isildur a quiet shove into the pit when no one is looking?
What’s your theory on that?
@@hoodatdondar2664 because if he actually was the kind of person to think that way, he would have been corrupted by the ring instantly and instead taken it for himself, the ring wins anyway
@@mAcChaosCh It would go against the symbolism or depth of the ring. Don’t forget, that what actually destroyed the ring was Gollum and Frodo fighting over it. Evil by its nature is self-destructive. It tends to collapse under its own volatility.
Thanks for the video. “We were all thinking it”, yep. Good premise for a video.
I would love some discussion on day to day life on the different settlements.
It seems that the manner of how one acquires the ring and the strength of will of the individual affects the one that bears it differently.
Taking the ring by force out of envy and lust for power quickly corrupts you, especially if you’re weak willed. Such as with Gollum. And nearly boromir
If it is picked up off the ground or given willingly to someone it may take many years or decades to corrupt you. Such as Bilbo and Frodo. Individuals who really lacked a desire for power.
If Elrond had taken it by force then maybe he would have turned to evil?
Galadriel wanted it convinced she was strong enough to control it.
If Elrond have took it for ANY reason he would’ve been corrupted, but by means of violence even more so, and more quickly
@@Bee-ju7nt Remember that when it was offered to her, she refused it.
Not really, the ring does what it wants. It's quite literally the most powerful divine entity on Arda. It can simply will for things to happen around it, and they happen. Remember that when Frodo carries the ring he's carrying most of Sauron himself.
@@kilvesx7924 It is true that Sauron is the most poweful Maiar we know of, BUT, I don’t think the ring alone is more powerful than Gandalf precisely, it just twists powerful beings by taking advantage of their own power. Sauron is def way above Gandalf tho. Tolkien stated that even if the ring did not betray Gandalf and he went on to fight Sauron (Gandalf with ring, Sauron without), he would only barely win.
Superb commentary on a much more complex relationship and character.
There is only one reason why Elrond didn't force Isildur. And the fact that everyone asks why points to a very deep and serious problem in modern society: virtually no one has any grasp of principles anymore. It would have been WRONG of Elrond to initiate violence against Isildur, for whatever reason. It could not have led to any positive outcome because the action would have been morally wrong, and everyone involved would have understood this at the time.
Any other motive ascribed to Elrond for abstaining from forcing Isildur is an argument from utility, and Tolkien NEVER lets any of his heroes be driven by utilitarian motives. Only Jackson made that mistake.
I was going to say: because he's not a monster and would not have pushed Isildur into the lava, Ring or no Ring.
That makes a lot of sense, but also mind blowing. This is a world where evil is unacceptable in any form. It kind of reminds me of how japanese society is constructed in a very similar way. The fact that they would not throw someone into the lava for the greater good, can be almost as dangerous as the ring itself. At least in this scenario.
@@mandogundam5779I mean you need not look to the East, LOTR is literally Catholicism, the fantasy series, it was our view of the world for centuries too
@@Poldovico The problem with that argument is that utilitarians - which is 99% of all people these days, even if they don't know it - would then say "Yes but it saves countless lives! He wouldn't be a monster, he'd be a HERO!"
@@AllAhabNoMoby I don't think it's that extreme yet.
Remember, the first, foremost, and primary function of the Ring, the purpose for which Sauron wrought it, is to _violate free will._ It's not exactly a stretch of the imagination to suppose that the very instant the thought "I could murder this distant relative/friend of mine and be rid of the Ring" enters your mind, its dark power finds your moral weakness and corrupts that thought into "I could murder this distant relative of mine and have the Ring for myself!"
That's the truth, the moment Elrond thinks of killing Isildur, he would have been already corrupted. And instead of killing Isildur and destroying the ring, he would have killed Isildur and the ring somehow would have come to his pocket.... so basically "now" Elrond becomes Sauron...
Exactly! Remember that Smeagol does not find the Ring; Deagol finds it -- and Smeagol murders him to get it.
Even in the movie version, your point about it not being a good idea for Elrond to kill the new king of Gondor applies. It would have been an easier murder standing right over the Fire than it would have been in the book, but still an act both evil and disastrous.
okay but letting the ring live on was also disastrous
@@ohiasdxfcghbljokasdjhnfvaw4ehr Well, it did take 3000 years for Sauron to reemerge so it wasn't exactly an urgent problem compared to the immediate consequences that would have followed from an ally killing the new King of Gondor. Plus, the Wise of Middle-earth operate on categorical rather than utilitarian ethics. For example when Frodo asks Gandalf why he didn't just take the Ring away from Bilbo, or force him to get rid of it, Gandalf's reasons include "I had no right to do so." (There are pragmatic reasons as well but Gandalf starts with that.) The Wise don't believe the end can justify the means. When Saruman tries that justification with Gandalf, Gandalf replies that only Mordor and those who Mordor has deceived think that way.
@@keithgoodnight3463 Underrated comment. That puts it all together.
If Elrond had done that, he might have been corrupted enough by it to keep the ring once he grabbed it.
Or, if the ring got away somehow ( as it tends to do) he might have kept it 3000 years later at the council, instead of declaring ‘I will not touch it’.
A fallen Elrond is a scary idea.
Brilliant assessment. Thank you.
Even if he had been able to push Isildur into the volcano, Elrond would NOT have done so, because he was not a murderer, and while he was ready to fight for good, he wasn't willing to do it at any price, that would just have made him the same as Sauron and his allies.
And of course, Isildur is Elrond's family, he would never have done such thing to the descendant of his dear brother.
Not everything can or needs to be resolved with violence, talking is also sometimes an option.
Thank you again for another great video answering a question I have had for many a year.
I have never thought of Isildur being a pushover😂
Killing Isildur would create a conflict between the Elves and Men, because imagine you're in Gondor's army and then you see only Elrond coming out the moutain and not Isildur, they would seriously ask themselves some questions out of confusion, so another war would just start
Middle Earth would be one hell of a grimdark setting if right after Sauron was defeated Elrond would kill Isildur and take the ring ... for himself.
I humbly submit another theory. Even had Elrond been present as the movies showed, the act of killing Isildur and the subsequent animosity and likely war with the Numenoreans would have been a 4th kinslaying.
You know that's something I was wondering back when I watched the film
Fantastic video as always Robert!
I would have appreciated if that bit from the books (convo between Frodo and Gandalf in regards to throwing the ring into the fire) as it dovetails nicely with the version Peter Jackson put on screen. We see (or assume) the ring has influence (though lesser) over people around it, not *just* the wearer. If we had gotten that fire scene in the movies, I would have just assumed The Ring had just enough influence over Elrond to push such a thought out of his mind.
Yup. Boromir sure never wore it. But “one by one it will destroy them all.”
The fact that Bilbo in the movie couldn’t let go of the Ring and he HAD to slowly tilt his hand to make it slide off his palm is just proof of how powerful the influence it holds over anyone who carries it.
If the ring knows an axe has 0 chance to hurt it would it bother the effort to change gimli's mind
Literally never thought this 😂
One does not simply push the king of men into a volcano
😂😂😂
"Elrond and Cirdan were nearby" [2:34], and Cirdan hadn't given Narya to Gandalf yet. We know how ring-bearers Gandalf & Galadriel were effected, so the fact neither Elrond nor Cirdan attacked Isildur shows they too passed their test.
Never thought of that! Great insight.
Also worth a mention that elrond would have begun his ownership of the ring through murder which would have corrupted him more easily and the ring would have taken a greater hold of him as gandalf said the reason bilbo was more resilient was he began his with pity
Because he was already bigger and stronger and now he had a ring of power.
The definitive explanation regards destroying the One Ring can be found in many of the letters of JRRT. In those he repeatedly explains that no one, not even Sauron could actually harm, much less, destroy the One Ring.
Thanks for correcting the idea that Isildur failed with this very truth.
Because there is zero indication in the texts that Elrond and Isildur entered the Sammath Naur. It wasn't physically possible. That's aside from the fact that he would never betray men and commit cold-blooded murder.
I love how basically the victory is ultimately achieved by God coming in and performing a miracle. The Ring couldn't account for that unforeseen input
The ring actually destroyed itself by it's own strength and an incident. No God needed at all.
@Slav4o911 pretty sure Tolkien wrote that Eru was the one that pushed Gollum into the fire. As Creator, he can provide stimuli from outside the created world that can't be accounted for by empirical analysis, hence miracles
Isuldur had to make the choice to give up the ring freely.
Any man would not give up the ring freely, I’m certain the ring was aware it was in Mount Doom and enticed Isildur with its power to prevent it from the demise it would face below
I had forgotten about Frodo's failed attempt to toss the ring at the outset. Which brings up another good question: why was anyone under the impression that Frodo -- or indeed anyone -- would be able to do it once they gad gotten the ring to Mount Doom? Gandalf watched him fail to so much as throw it into an ordinary fire, and with so little time for it to influence him: how could anyone think he'd succeed at *actually* destroying it?
Gandalf’s original plan would have been to go with Frodo to Mordor and Mount Doom, and help him with the difficult task.
4:53 so why give it to Frodo? They knew then and there that Frodo couldn't bring himself to destroy the ring why then give him that task?
Only frodo could carry the ring and destroy it.
"Fool's hope"
Kind of exactly what he said right after that, sure Frodo didn’t want to destroy it but neither would anyone else have. And anyone else would probably also have the urge to use the power of the ring for themselves, which Frodo didn’t really.
Yesssssss you did this one!! I swear I just asked this question 🙋♂️ in a previous video.
than how did the plan to bring the ring to mount doom make sense in the first place?
Well, it’s literally the only way to try to destroy it.
Regardless of how improbable the idea was.
such a good question... and well-answered.
Why did Gandalf send Frodo to destroy the ring if he couldn't destroy it in his own home? Is it because Gandalf had foresight
I think less a foresight of specific events, and more a very tenuous sense of fate akin to when he smells the correct path in Khazad-dûm.
Think of in the film when he says "did he, did he indeed, good, yes, very good" when he finds out Sam went with Frodo. He didn't magically know that, he doesn't get that amount of detail, but Sam's actions "smelled" good and Gandalf trusts those intuitions.
If one would take the One Ring by force from a friend even in order to destroy it, the hold of the Ring over the new wearer would very likely strengthen.
So it went like - Elrond: “Bro, it’s sus, disappear it!” ⏩️ Isildur “Bruh”
You have an amazing voice. Very relaxing and comforting. Reminds me of being a kid and listening to audiobooks. :)
That raises the question - Did the ring have any influence over Sauron's actions when it was in his possession? Could he hypothetically have chosen to unmake it (if that possibility existed)?
If anyone could have, Sauron could, and it's even possible that he could thereby have reclaimed sufficient of his power to survive that destruction.
Yes.. This question has baffeled me for a long time,, Say Sauron had won, and become lord of all.. Would he have a need for the ring anymore..? Could he reverse the bits of himself to return from the ring, and then unmake it..? Would it betray him in yhe end, when there is noone else to dominate..? This is very much a mystery to me too..
@@kholsingerthey tried when he had the ring why wouldn't they if he didn't
@@rmsgrey I think it might be a bit like punching yourself in the face. Your body automatically tries to resist it (in a normal mental state). It could be like that for Sauron if he tries to hurt the part of his essence within the ring.
@@kholsinger Yearh, but that's what I mean.. Isen't that kindda selfdestructable if he keeps a trinket that could kill him around after dominating everything..
I get what you are saying, but I can't help thinking he would find a way to regain his power to himself, as he might need it ti shape this new world of his.. The rings power to amplify his dominance would not be needed anymore.. So don't rightfully know if he would need the ring itself anymore..
Questions, questions.. So many to be had..😅
“Hey, Elrond - how come we haven’t seen Isildur since you guys went into Mt Doom together?”
“Oh, uh, yeah. Well, I tried to get him to destroy the Ring but, y’know, hearts of men and all that. He decided to keep it and, uh, wear it, so he’s…umm…invisible now. Yeah, invisible. Anyway, I need to go sail West, like, right now…”
“We all thought it.”
“…Babe no”
I had to patiently explain to a friend (who never read the book) why attacking Isildur to destroy The One Ring would have been catastrophically stupid.
If we consider that the ring is a piece of Sauron’s essence and being such, it feeds into the bearers own desires and ambitions for power and dominion, no matter how hidden or latent those desires may be. So it’s completely understandable why no one could intentionally destroy the ring. I would argue that these desires are to some degree, associated with the will to live, itself.
Its harkens to Nietzshe’s
philosophical premise that the will to power and the will to live are synonymous with the will to power being dominant over the will to live. So the ring taps into or capitalizes on the essential nature of the self.
Tolkien was a very smart guy.
Of course, a lot depends on what that self is. Note that Bilbo voluntarily gave it up ( with a little help).
Of course, if you have it long enough, it will get you. That’s why Gandalf would not take it. But if you just have it for bit, well…
..Bilbo dropped it. Some one else, who had had it for just a bit, could drop it. So there happens to be a Crack of Doom nearby. A drop is a drop.
This only ends with an AI generated video of Isildur falling from the Cracks of Doom yelling My Precious. And, Thief, Elrond, we hates it forever.
A lot of videos are like: "why didn't they did that on this scene?" "Because that scene was movie original"
"So the story could happen."
"Oh, yeah. Well we want that."
Still, it would have been *super easy, barely an inconvenience* to throw him in there
And this is one of those times when I wholeheartedly agree with Screenwriter guy. We did want this story
So in the end, it reinforces that the very greed to claim the ring, was what finally destroyed it; "It is in the nature of evil to destroy itself." and all.
But also, does this suggest that *only* evil can destroy itself? Maybe I'm reading too deep into it.
I wonder what Gandalf thought when Frodo volunteered to take the ring to Mordor, even after Gandalf saw that Frodo couldn't even bring himself to cast it into the fireplace in his own home.
"Evil always destroys itself" is a very different statement from "Only Evil can destroy Evil".