Once more, for the people in the back: "on grid" or "off grid" terms have nothing to do with any particular feature or capability. These terms are used *solely* to describe whether or not a system is integrated with public infrastructure. Solar power? OFF GRID - not because you can't get lots of electricity from solar, but because you are literally not required to be connected to the electrical supply grid. WiFi in Infrastructure mode? ON GRID (with the caveat that we mean an AP connected to the internet) You're connected to infrastructure! it's in the freaking name! WiFi in ad-hoc mode? OFF GRID - devices communicate directly with one another without the need for a router RAIN BARREL FOR DRINKING WATER? OFF GRID City Water Supply? ON GRID Texting over LoRa? IT'S DECENTRALIZED AND REQUIRES NO INFRASTRUCTURE YOU ABSOLUTE WALNUT IT IS OFF GRID BY DEFINITION REGARDLESS OF YOUR WIDDLE FEEFEES ABOUT TEXTING. SMDH
@@ultimatums1 I'm O.G. sea salt. Like I know and lived through the sequence of global events that brought the term "salty" into common parlance for English-speaking civilians and was salty before *that*. I was, once upon a time, *professionally* salty. It was my job.
Next test, use 3 T-Beams, one at your home, one in your car, and one on a drone. Drive out until out of range, then fly the drone up 4 or 500 ft and try again. Keep going until out of range.
I was thinking of doing something like this (using drone as antenna base), but I would like to keep the drone tethered to the ground with a super light weight power cable to keep the drone up indefinitely. It would depend on if I could find a 300ft power cable that isn't too heavy for the drone and can still handle the power.
2 miles in a suburban environment seems pretty impressive for such a tiny little device. I live smack in the center of a roughly 4 mile by 4 mile town so I should be able to communicate from nearly anywhere in town except south of my home where the larger downtown buildings are located, and that's okay because no one goes there unless they're buying crack
Once again knocking it outta the park w this info. Intriguing concept. Got solar so I’m all in on this off grid comms. And this info is already 2 yrs old. The growth potential is amazing. Thanks again.
Thank you Josh and awesome videos from a Ham perspective introduction to LoRa. Just to add on to the conversation, we use LoRa(WAN) as an extension to the limited WiFi range on the devices we build using arduino and Pi to communicate. Some use cases are alerting of wandering cows beyond a limited area on farms by putting proximity tags on cows, humidity and temperature sensing in far away greenhouses from main building, etc the sky is the limit as to what can be developed and has very low energy consumption and very reliable all things considered. Thanks again Josh for very eloquently introducing this technology as a supplement to the Ham comms space.
FYI the 3v3 is the 3 volt rail, the next is GND which is ground. Then serial data pin : SDA (default is GPIO 21) serial clock pin : SCL (default is GPIO 22)
Great videos on LoRa. You use basic language to describe the way it works which is great for someone like me who would definitely be considered ’green’. Sometimes too much information just causes me to lose interest because I don’t understand the jargon but thankfully you kept it simple which I personally appreciate. I’m not into HAM but am interested in RC planes/FPV and will watch out for new developments in this field.
I ordered a LORAWAN device and a couple of LORA devices just to see what this is about. Oddly, there is some crossover with Crypto currency and these things. Hmmmmm. Fascinating stuff.
I have the same view of its usefulness in such a situation. Also for disaster recovery where the infrastructure is damaged/destroyed (e.g., hurricane, tornado or earthquake).
In a future video can you PLEASE look into using LoRa and ATAK. I have 4 nodes incoming to me and can't wait to get them. I've already scoped out several high points to put nodes and 10W solar panels with 12Ah batteries to make them self contained. Having multiple ATAK devices using the mesh would be invaluable.
I’m looking into the same, I was looking at building a “repeater” node into a micro pelican case with a small solar panel to place on a nearby mountain and use ATAK while hiking.
I could see this being a very handy tool to use in a neighborhood if there was a grid down situation (hurricanes are a thing here in FL). You could at least check on your neighbors and make sure they are OK or their roof isn’t leaking or whatever…
Great video. Since your first video on this I've been thinking of possible uses for staff communications at scouting events. Almost everyone has a smartphone today, but cell service is spotty at a lot of scout camps, so this offers a way to use a texting like service where there's no or limited cell service. The no license part makes it much easier to use when the majority of the group aren't hams. I had thought of trying to use APRS in this situation, but LoRa really looks like a much easier to implement solution. With APRS you need an HT, TNC (assuming you didn't go with a higher end HT with it built in) and most often cables to connect. LoRa is much simpler, just the LoRa device and Bluetooth to the phone, tablet, iPad, etc.
Another option would be that Motorola makes a FRS/GMRS radio that can send text and location data. They are like $50 each, and are also standard FRS radios so you can do voice. Not encrypted, but you shouldn't need that.
There are iPhone and android apps that you can download and will use wifi direct to communicate with each other. Range will obviously be less than lora
a good way to put this is the lora device is acting like a modern version of CB radio... you can use anything with Bluetooth to access it (ancient laptop, super budget tablet, old smart phone... anything) a good use for this is in a power outage since everything needed can be run off solar and batteries so you can still talk to people. these can be strung together so for example, here he started having issues at 3miles from his home, if you have a friend the lives at 2.5 miles out and they have one, it can relay your signal so now you have closer to 5 miles in that direction... as more and more people get these devices they will slowly become a larger and larger network that is not tied to a company like cell phones and the internet. that youtuber with the world record also has a video showing how to make simple walkie talkies that us a mumble server, you can set up a mumble server on a raspberry pi and build your own private long range network.
I'm planning on just a wireless BLE keyboard to send the text to the LoRa transceiver. It uses far less energy than any of those other devices. The AA batteries in mine have run for 2 years, so far.
Thanks for doing these videos, I'm really interested in a LoRa network for a very rural area where cell service is very limited and not having to rely on radios for communications. The weatherproof box with a solar pannel looks very promising. I just wish these components are easier to find from US based sellers.
They're never going to be common thru US sellers. They're made in China and open source so it's Shenzen, China. Just choose an AliExpress seller with a +95% rating and wait a month.
I always thought I was absolutely terrible at soldering, who needs that flux junk anyway… Well when I realized what happens when you use flux it was like magic! I did the exact same routine as when I failed many times previously, but using the flux it just worked like magic
The essence of Liberty, and the key to prosperity, is to provide our own infrastrukture - it is time to end the crony rent seeking going on over spectrum, this is the bright future we have to claw our way into.
Duct Tape solves everything. Regarding the question about encryption, In LoRaWAN, AES256 is the encryption for both signing/authentication from end node to network layer and encode/decode from end node to application layer. That is considered very strong encryption. It seems to have been implemented in either Meshtastic/RadioHead by someone who wasn't confident on his implementation of the AES256, so if you need ultra-secure, you might want to look over the implementation. But I'm sure the NSA could break it. They don't tell you, else they'd have to kill you.
Great video! I have some T beams on order and am super excited to try them out. I’ve got a hunt on the north slope of Alaska planned for 2022 and hope to use them there.
I definitely like the idea of LoRa. Especially being able to package this up in a waterproof box with a solar charger. I live in Albuquerque and we have mountains right near us. I'm wondering if I could place a setup on the mountain which has line of sight to the entire city and use the mountain peak like a repeater for other Lora boxes.
Yes you can. It would be a relay station instead of a repeater. You can bury the box with the LoRa device to keep it out of the sun, run a longer wire to an antenna in a tree, that would help to overcome any other obstacles in the way.
I just got some Heltec V3s this weekend, did my first range test purposely ignoring Line of Sight by leaving one node next to my bed in my metal walled house, and taking the other with me. On the Long Slow channel, I managed almost exactly one mile of range with the constraints I had set, I went out to 1.1 miles and lost communication with the home node. For a pair of 1 Watt devices, Even though I was using Long Slow to give it the best chance, that's still some absolutely fantastic range given the handicaps I set up. I would love to have myself a solar powered repeater mounted on a decent size pole, that might actually reach where I work if I'm lucky. I'm hoping I can build interest in my area; even if we never get another Helene in our lifetimes, a good unlicensed radio option would still be useful for the future.
So I've been tested these for quite some time, so one thing I noticed is even know that the cross says that it didn't deliver the message when I look on my receiving phone at home base the message was delivered. I was told by one of the developers that you can't always trust the delivery mechanism.
@@HamRadioCrashCourse obviously the downside of that is that if you're do have an emergency situation you don't know if the people on the other side of the emergency got your message or not, however we put in place a simple simple response to confirm the message was received.
@@presidentelectjerryodom3889 if they did receive your message whether you knew or not, the chances of their message returning to you would be good, wouldn't it?
Pro tip: If you really need electronics to be waterproof, remove the board, mask off any ports or jumpers, ect and spray the whole thing down with silicone conformal coating. There are some caveats, you won't have easy access to the components again. In areas where the coating is thicker there will be more heat build up.
Just found your channel and liking it thanks for your efforts sir. Maybe a differently worded answer for "Bob" would be to just say you're off primary grid's and operating your own private local communications grid. Maybe some kind of translation issues or something that's losing the point that the phrase "Off Grid" isn't so much no grid as it is completely independent and isolated grid. If you're in an "off grid" home with solar, wind or even standard generator and powering the home and a separate workshop and or a water well you're on an electrical grid of your own creation, same goes for water etc etc😉
excellent videos,... The Last Ship, tv show on TnT, had a storyline where people were communicating using exactly this type of "service",... cool stuff to learn about. Could come in handy if shtf lol.
Josh, thanks for the demo and the little bit different video. I am not 100% understanding this, but I plan to go back to the other video you did to see what this is all about. De K1MAZ
People, a cell phone/smartphone has various RADIOS! THAT is where this LoRa Meshtastic shines, it uses the Bluetooth Radio, or the Wi-Fi radio, which are both totally independent of a CELL PHONE RADIO, and/or the service provider! :)
"line-of-sight" explanation could use a bit of revamp. (wavelength vs physical composition/geometry in path. Antennae directivity, etc.) Might be another video. Great Job !!
There’s a lot of value in using this as a primary form of comm for a local group in a grid down scenario as it has some level of encryption. Then switch over to VHF voice if this UHF method cannot reach the distant end.
I can’t remember the formula for power attenuation but I’m pretty sure it includes a square of the distance, a cube if it’s a spherical signal. So it would have been better to start at say 1k, then 2k then 2.5k then 2.75k etc
@@teachusmore that so not really what I was talking about. I was talking about how the signal power doesn’t degrade linearly with distance. However that does suggest an answer and that is to get the signal is linear as possible and that will depend on the antennas used. You would want possibly a helical or parabolic antenna but the problem you have then is that you then need to have them pointed in the right direction. The commercial approach is in the name “mesh”: simply add more nodes.
A couple of questions: 1. Can more than one phone / tablet connect to one LoRa device at a time? 2. I’m guessing if someone sends a message from device A out to and device B isn’t connected, that message is “lost”. So best to check if anyone is “listening” before sending a detailed message. Is that correct? 3. If I have three LoRa units and three devices connected and one device broadcasts a message, the other two will receive it? (Party line essentially) 4. Any channel changing option so a couple people can communicate directly and keep the primary channel / frequency open? I’m trying to see how we can use this in a remote community so appreciate all the info and help! Thanks!
I believe more than one phone or tablet could be used for one LoRa device but not at the same time. LoRa devices will give mesh status for those they hear but the don’t denote of a phone or tablet is connected so messages could be lost. It works like a party line, yes. You could have three LoRa nodes connected to three different networks and jump between them with one phone.
Food for thought: The European band for this LoRa device is 433 mhz. Here in the states, that's inside our 70cm amateur band (420-450mhz). Why then, other than the technicality about encryption, couldn't we use that device into a repeater or an amplifier? As I see it, it's a data signal, so why not?
What i think would make this a truly perfect "off grid" type of device would be if there was some way to connect to it, and it automatically give you a link to an "offline" locally stored version of the app. or ability to use a web browser so anyone could connect to it that wasnt before and have the ability to use it. it would be something great to have in a "all comms" (aka cell\internet) down scenario . im sure it wouldnt take much processing power or space on the ROM to have a mini web-server built in to it. but its a cool start to something.
Thank you for doing the range test. I'm still concerned with the application I want to do it for, since the homes we want to link, one of them is deep in the valley. Even though it is only one mile away, there's lots of vegetation and rocky terrain between these two points. So I don't think LoRA will work. It would be better if they just wasn't scared of taking the Tech. license since I can reach there with just my HT's, but it is what it is. FRS won't reach. It might just be GMRS then.
this is an ideal use case for a mesh network. another node at the top of the valley could be used as a repeater. a camo case and a solar panel, nail it to a tree or something. they are cheap enough you could spread a couple around to really get some coverage.
@@arjovenzia came to say exactly this, thats the beauty of mesh. You can go as far as you would like depending on what you wish to spend on your own infrastructure.
I would encourage folks to try this stuff out and the meshtastic team is pretty darn cool, but know that this not at all ready for prime time. I am a techie with some serious professional experience in related fields, but I feel like I have falling down a rabbit hole trying to get this set up and ready for my community, I do not think it is going to happen. Update: The things go to sleep and wake up randomly, I am seeing so many issues and feeling overwhelmed with just how far from complete this project is. It is all being created in folks free time, so I get it, but just don't prop these things up before they are ready, cause this is not at all ready! :(
So in essence, Lora devices are low powered wifi repeaters for a closed off network and you use a special app as your messenger to communicate between devices attached to the access points?
Thats funny, i am a rc pilot and i got a lora system called expresslrs with which you can get more than 30 kilometers of range on 2.4ghz 100mw and 50hz packet rate
I am a ham myself (W8MLD), and I find these fascinating. I may give this a shot. I wonder if they can use tropo or are the frequencies too high? Plus being spread spectrum I guess it might not work all that well. I will check Andrias’ video for more information. Thanks
With the current supply chain issues from China, how likely are we to see these devices get shipped and received in the US? Or do they deliver stuff like this via aircraft instead of container ship? Seems to me that anything from overseas is gonna be a real problem to get right now.
G'day at 12:24 you say that is a frequency hopping spread spectrum system. LoRa modulation is a spread spectrum like technology in that the transmission is swept across the channel bandwidth. This give it a unique appearance in a waterfall display. LoRa and as far as I can see Meshtastics implementation does not use frequency hopping. I'm new to Meshtastic but as far as I've seen the frequency is determined when the "channel" is created isn't it? I heard that there was a massive crash of devices at defcon this year when a bunch of nodes started up :-)
Going through all your videos. Great stuff. Thanks for taking the time to share. One question - Where did you get your project clamp/vise? I'd love one like that for some of the small work I do.
It's not entirely correct to say that the range of LoRa is line of sight. LoRa is a modulation technique that may be applied to any radio signal. It's generally the power level and operating frequency in the (RF) environment that determines range. Having said that it is the adoption of LoRa that provides your signal with additional performance benefits and these can be really impressive. Amongst other things i) LoRa allows the trade-off between data rate and range ii) LoRa can operate below the noise floor - providing incredible margins and iii) being a spread spectrum technology it can operate in a shared frequency range. (There are others but my pedantic meter needle has just wrapped itself around the end stop) :)
@@HamRadioCrashCourse As soon as I submitted that, I thought about the very wide modulation bandwidth compared to the carrier frequency. There are the legal restrictions of course but it could be that you could get away with a very low carrier power so that it is well below the noise floor (only you know it's there) :) But come on the Russian got away with 'The Woodpecker' for years. Go for it! :)
I think I'm going to have to go to the Discord page and read up on this. While I understand, what seems to be the basics, I'm still lost in it's total purpose and capabilities. Kind of like giving a baby a hammer. I might be one of the absolute walnuts mentioned in the pinned comment, LOL. Thanks for the video, it did help, but it left me...
I just wanted to ask, each LoRa device has a 2~2.5mi range in the city. BUT!!! They can leapfrog a message across them correct? So if you had one 2mi away (at a neighbor’s house), and then one at 4 mi away (at a second neighbor’s house) and then one 6 mi away (at maybe an office) and each was 2 mi away from the next one, the home device could send/receive messages to the device at the office through the other two LoRas, correct?
Why not a series of small solar-powered dirigibles strung across a large urban area? Something practical that can stay aloft for a few weeks at a time. I am unsure what all this would prove but I am sure it would satisfy your curiosity.
Metastatic would be far more popular. If any other mesh could route through someone else's mesh. This would encourage users to put up permanent repeaters. And create a wide reception area. This will be encrypted end to end so even passing through someone else's network can't be snooped.
I do screens by soldering the short end of header to screen, and then soldering the whole thing to the board. Just the way that works for me (and the 100+ hotspots I have built).
@@HamRadioCrashCourse it doesnt create any damage to the screen if you do it without mistakes. Usually when theres a heat sensitive part i need to work with, I apply a bit of flux so the solder heats evenly thus taking less time to work with it. then clean the area with some IPA in a q tip. Also, when soldering sensitive parts, its not recommended to go past 420c in the iron. my preferred temp is 380c for the 90% stuff i work with.
@@Intimidator443 Depends on the composition of your solder 95/5 SN/AG, tin, silver, won't even melt at 420, I believe you meant 420F not 420C as 420C is 788 degrees fahrenheit, enough to melt pure lead. If you are worried about heat slow down let each pin cool, also can mitigate heat by not soldering pins in a row, just make sure to inspect that you got them all before declaring it done. but 380 is generally good for 60/40 Sn.Pb, i.e. Tin / Lead, though I have noticed that each iron is different I have two Identical station, one for lead and one for no lead, lent my lead to a buddy, he was late getting it back to me so had to use my no lead for a job had to set it 50 degrees hotter than normal, these are "identical" stations, same power supply same iron.
@@at1cvb417 yes, meant f not c that was my bad. Sometimes i get confused while translating from spanish to english. I use 60/40 rosin core solder which melts perfectly at 380f. If its non lead solder requires more heat to melt.
For those of you still wrapped around the axle, consider these points: 1. Just because your grid is down doesn't mean the entire grid or Internet is down. During several hurricanes in Louisiana, we had no electricity for over a week but the cellular Internet was up the whole time. It can happen. Also, working in disaster zones, even if your infrastructure is wiped out, doesn't mean it isn't working next town or county over. A portable network like this allows comms inside rhe disaster zone and connectivity outside the zone. 2. Text comms are similar to military burst transmission. Fast and harder to pinpoint than voice by quite a bit. 3. If you don't have a group, you may not need comms. Comms are a combat multiplier of huge proportion. Shoot, move and communicate are the three things you need to do to stay alive in the military.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
Once more, for the people in the back:
"on grid" or "off grid" terms have nothing to do with any particular feature or capability.
These terms are used *solely* to describe whether or not a system is integrated with public infrastructure.
Solar power? OFF GRID - not because you can't get lots of electricity from solar, but because you are literally not required to be connected to the electrical supply grid.
WiFi in Infrastructure mode? ON GRID (with the caveat that we mean an AP connected to the internet) You're connected to infrastructure! it's in the freaking name!
WiFi in ad-hoc mode? OFF GRID - devices communicate directly with one another without the need for a router
RAIN BARREL FOR DRINKING WATER? OFF GRID
City Water Supply? ON GRID
Texting over LoRa? IT'S DECENTRALIZED AND REQUIRES NO INFRASTRUCTURE YOU ABSOLUTE WALNUT IT IS OFF GRID BY DEFINITION REGARDLESS OF YOUR WIDDLE FEEFEES ABOUT TEXTING.
SMDH
Well said. 👍
@@HamRadioCrashCourse sorry for getting a little heated in your comments.
@@StripeyType salty much?
@@ultimatums1 I'm O.G. sea salt.
Like I know and lived through the sequence of global events that brought the term "salty" into common parlance for English-speaking civilians and was salty before *that*.
I was, once upon a time, *professionally* salty. It was my job.
@@StripeyType at least you are willing to admit your childish behavior.
Lots of good questions answered here! Happy to colab if there are other questions.
Next test, use 3 T-Beams, one at your home, one in your car, and one on a drone. Drive out until out of range, then fly the drone up 4 or 500 ft and try again. Keep going until out of range.
400 AGL is the celing for drones in the U.S. (if you want to be leagle) But, yes that would be awesome!
I was thinking of doing something like this (using drone as antenna base), but I would like to keep the drone tethered to the ground with a super light weight power cable to keep the drone up indefinitely. It would depend on if I could find a 300ft power cable that isn't too heavy for the drone and can still handle the power.
Was thinking of trying the same thing please try this!
I was thinking of trying the same thing today- a DJI Mini should be able to lift a t-beam and 18650
@@ChristopherScanlan88 why not just use a ballon at that point?
2 miles in a suburban environment seems pretty impressive for such a tiny little device. I live smack in the center of a roughly 4 mile by 4 mile town so I should be able to communicate from nearly anywhere in town except south of my home where the larger downtown buildings are located, and that's okay because no one goes there unless they're buying crack
It did three miles.
Interesting, because Meshtastic would work well for secretly contacting your dealer.
@@ancapftw9113 My weed guy is like 200 feet away. I could place an order with cans and string lol
@@djk8541 🙄
whats the point though
* Grabs popcorn. I love this LoRa stuff right now for some reason.
Once again knocking it outta the park w this info. Intriguing concept. Got solar so I’m all in on this off grid comms. And this info is already 2 yrs old. The growth potential is amazing. Thanks again.
I hope you saw my last live stream with some of the devs!
Thank you Josh and awesome videos from a Ham perspective introduction to LoRa. Just to add on to the conversation, we use LoRa(WAN) as an extension to the limited WiFi range on the devices we build using arduino and Pi to communicate. Some use cases are alerting of wandering cows beyond a limited area on farms by putting proximity tags on cows, humidity and temperature sensing in far away greenhouses from main building, etc the sky is the limit as to what can be developed and has very low energy consumption and very reliable all things considered. Thanks again Josh for very eloquently introducing this technology as a supplement to the Ham comms space.
Not being a HAM user, this is all good stuff Josh. Thanks for the breakdowns in both videos and any future videos as well. Very interesting tech.
FYI Ham is not an acronym, it's just a slang term for amateur radio.
@@CWGminer
High Antennas on Mountains.
Horrible At Music.
Happy to spend Any Money.
😁
FYI the 3v3 is the 3 volt rail, the next is GND which is ground. Then
serial data pin : SDA (default is GPIO 21)
serial clock pin : SCL (default is GPIO 22)
I love that every time I find a new project to start, you’ve just made a video covering it in great detail. 73!
Damn, am I that good?
Great videos on LoRa. You use basic language to describe the way it works which is great for someone like me who would definitely be considered ’green’. Sometimes too much information just causes me to lose interest because I don’t understand the jargon but thankfully you kept it simple which I personally appreciate.
I’m not into HAM but am interested in RC planes/FPV and will watch out for new developments in this field.
Thanks for answering questions, providing a channel suggestion, and running a test. This is great! Really appreciated. +1 upvote
this is badass. I think folks were genuinely confused about the fact it does not use wifi or cell service besides when you initially download the app.
Yep. That is right.
I ordered a LORAWAN device and a couple of LORA devices just to see what this is about. Oddly, there is some crossover with Crypto currency and these things. Hmmmmm. Fascinating stuff.
I suspect you quickly discovered Helium mining?
YES! Finally this community is growing!
You mean blockchain?
this is perfect for SARs operations to give out location quickly where signal is less than ideal
Perfect to bring wifi and messaging and voice to supressed people
I have the same view of its usefulness in such a situation. Also for disaster recovery where the infrastructure is damaged/destroyed (e.g., hurricane, tornado or earthquake).
In a future video can you PLEASE look into using LoRa and ATAK. I have 4 nodes incoming to me and can't wait to get them. I've already scoped out several high points to put nodes and 10W solar panels with 12Ah batteries to make them self contained. Having multiple ATAK devices using the mesh would be invaluable.
The atak device was destroyed....Roger Moore threw it over the mountainside in " for your eyes only "
Let us know how you get on
I’m looking into the same, I was looking at building a “repeater” node into a micro pelican case with a small solar panel to place on a nearby mountain and use ATAK while hiking.
@@PrebleStreetRecords let me know if that works out for you. I am very interested.
Which band did you choose and how well is it working?
Doing a large test with a similar set up here in the next week. Very excited 😊
How'd it go?
I could see this being a very handy tool to use in a neighborhood if there was a grid down situation (hurricanes are a thing here in FL). You could at least check on your neighbors and make sure they are OK or their roof isn’t leaking or whatever…
EXACTLY
Now… GPS+RSSI+data logging+drive around for hours+google heat map.
:) Great follow up video!
Great video. Since your first video on this I've been thinking of possible uses for staff communications at scouting events. Almost everyone has a smartphone today, but cell service is spotty at a lot of scout camps, so this offers a way to use a texting like service where there's no or limited cell service. The no license part makes it much easier to use when the majority of the group aren't hams. I had thought of trying to use APRS in this situation, but LoRa really looks like a much easier to implement solution. With APRS you need an HT, TNC (assuming you didn't go with a higher end HT with it built in) and most often cables to connect. LoRa is much simpler, just the LoRa device and Bluetooth to the phone, tablet, iPad, etc.
That is a PERFECT use case. We're not trying to be super spies or talk around the world. Just trying to keep a bunch of kids alive. 😂
Another option would be that Motorola makes a FRS/GMRS radio that can send text and location data. They are like $50 each, and are also standard FRS radios so you can do voice. Not encrypted, but you shouldn't need that.
@@dissmani what model is that?
@@madbroindustries T800 series.
There are iPhone and android apps that you can download and will use wifi direct to communicate with each other. Range will obviously be less than lora
Many ham radio videos encourage me to buy more gear, now I have to buy some acreage to create a use case for LoRa.
a good way to put this is the lora device is acting like a modern version of CB radio... you can use anything with Bluetooth to access it (ancient laptop, super budget tablet, old smart phone... anything)
a good use for this is in a power outage since everything needed can be run off solar and batteries so you can still talk to people.
these can be strung together so for example, here he started having issues at 3miles from his home, if you have a friend the lives at 2.5 miles out and they have one, it can relay your signal so now you have closer to 5 miles in that direction... as more and more people get these devices they will slowly become a larger and larger network that is not tied to a company like cell phones and the internet.
that youtuber with the world record also has a video showing how to make simple walkie talkies that us a mumble server, you can set up a mumble server on a raspberry pi and build your own private long range network.
I'm planning on just a wireless BLE keyboard to send the text to the LoRa transceiver. It uses far less energy than any of those other devices. The AA batteries in mine have run for 2 years, so far.
Thanks for doing these videos, I'm really interested in a LoRa network for a very rural area where cell service is very limited and not having to rely on radios for communications. The weatherproof box with a solar pannel looks very promising. I just wish these components are easier to find from US based sellers.
They're never going to be common thru US sellers.
They're made in China and open source so it's Shenzen, China.
Just choose an AliExpress seller with a +95% rating and wait a month.
For long range, remember that the data rate is slow!
I always thought I was absolutely terrible at soldering, who needs that flux junk anyway… Well when I realized what happens when you use flux it was like magic! I did the exact same routine as when I failed many times previously, but using the flux it just worked like magic
The essence of Liberty, and the key to prosperity, is to provide our own infrastrukture - it is time to end the crony rent seeking going on over spectrum, this is the bright future we have to claw our way into.
Great video. I hope that everyone appreciates the effort you go to to make these videos. Well done.
Thank you!
Really cool stuff. Thank you Josh for yet another great and informative video.
Thank you!
Duct Tape solves everything. Regarding the question about encryption, In LoRaWAN, AES256 is the encryption for both signing/authentication from end node to network layer and encode/decode from end node to application layer. That is considered very strong encryption. It seems to have been implemented in either Meshtastic/RadioHead by someone who wasn't confident on his implementation of the AES256, so if you need ultra-secure, you might want to look over the implementation. But I'm sure the NSA could break it. They don't tell you, else they'd have to kill you.
I’ve got two and just soldered them up before watching this video. Your answers on the iPhone app was very helpful. Thanks!
Great video! I have some T beams on order and am super excited to try them out. I’ve got a hunt on the north slope of Alaska planned for 2022 and hope to use them there.
How you gunna use this tech for that? Seems like you should just get a in reach
I'm still in the learning/ info gathering stage. This was quite helpful, thanks! 👍🏻
I definitely like the idea of LoRa. Especially being able to package this up in a waterproof box with a solar charger. I live in Albuquerque and we have mountains right near us. I'm wondering if I could place a setup on the mountain which has line of sight to the entire city and use the mountain peak like a repeater for other Lora boxes.
Yes you can. It would be a relay station instead of a repeater. You can bury the box with the LoRa device to keep it out of the sun, run a longer wire to an antenna in a tree, that would help to overcome any other obstacles in the way.
Did you ever get it up and running ? L
I just got some Heltec V3s this weekend, did my first range test purposely ignoring Line of Sight by leaving one node next to my bed in my metal walled house, and taking the other with me. On the Long Slow channel, I managed almost exactly one mile of range with the constraints I had set, I went out to 1.1 miles and lost communication with the home node.
For a pair of 1 Watt devices, Even though I was using Long Slow to give it the best chance, that's still some absolutely fantastic range given the handicaps I set up. I would love to have myself a solar powered repeater mounted on a decent size pole, that might actually reach where I work if I'm lucky.
I'm hoping I can build interest in my area; even if we never get another Helene in our lifetimes, a good unlicensed radio option would still be useful for the future.
I was about to comment range on the first video then I saw this link. 😁 Freaking awsome. Definitely answered all my questions.
So I've been tested these for quite some time, so one thing I noticed is even know that the cross says that it didn't deliver the message when I look on my receiving phone at home base the message was delivered. I was told by one of the developers that you can't always trust the delivery mechanism.
Yes! That was what happened in my case. The three mile message went through!
@@HamRadioCrashCourse obviously the downside of that is that if you're do have an emergency situation you don't know if the people on the other side of the emergency got your message or not, however we put in place a simple simple response to confirm the message was received.
@@presidentelectjerryodom3889 that's called The Hostile Valley Problem. Lots of academics have worked on it.
@@presidentelectjerryodom3889 if they did receive your message whether you knew or not, the chances of their message returning to you would be good, wouldn't it?
Pro tip: If you really need electronics to be waterproof, remove the board, mask off any ports or jumpers, ect and spray the whole thing down with silicone conformal coating. There are some caveats, you won't have easy access to the components again. In areas where the coating is thicker there will be more heat build up.
I removed the board. What do I do with the all these tiny pieces now? :D
Great information, thanks. Although I don't understand everything yet I feel this technology has a great future.
Never heard of this before but for some reason I feel like I should be an expert at it…
😂🤣
Thank you for these videos. I have no experience in radio/ lora comms, but am interested in trying it out now!!
Nice! Give it a go!
Great content ! Would like to see how to combine LoRa with Raspberry Pi / Compute Module.
Just found your channel and liking it thanks for your efforts sir. Maybe a differently worded answer for "Bob" would be to just say you're off primary grid's and operating your own private local communications grid. Maybe some kind of translation issues or something that's losing the point that the phrase "Off Grid" isn't so much no grid as it is completely independent and isolated grid. If you're in an "off grid" home with solar, wind or even standard generator and powering the home and a separate workshop and or a water well you're on an electrical grid of your own creation, same goes for water etc etc😉
I ordered a couple to use as a dog tracker. I was thinking of using aprs, but this looks a little easier, cheaper, and more secure to do.
Mount it in a plastic barrel attached to its collar like cartoon Saint Bernard!
excellent videos,... The Last Ship, tv show on TnT, had a storyline where people were communicating using exactly this type of "service",... cool stuff to learn about. Could come in handy if shtf lol.
Thank you for clarification 👍🖖
Funny. First thing that came to mind when you said "off grid" was exactly what you described. The haters are actually "off balance."
Josh, thanks for the demo and the little bit different video. I am not 100% understanding this, but I plan to go back to the other video you did to see what this is all about. De K1MAZ
People, a cell phone/smartphone has various RADIOS! THAT is where this LoRa Meshtastic shines, it uses the Bluetooth Radio, or the Wi-Fi radio, which are both totally independent of a CELL PHONE RADIO, and/or the service provider! :)
"This is not a permanent solution, obviously :)..." aside at 4:15 earned my sub. I love me a "good enough" DIY project. Keep em coming!
Hah. Thanks!
I’d put one in a tethered helium balloon (non-metallic, obviously). You could raise and lower it for the best signal.
Thanks for dealing with us LoRa novices.
Just ignore the trolls. Don't waste the brain cells on them, you do good things with yours :-)
"line-of-sight" explanation could use a bit of revamp. (wavelength vs physical composition/geometry in path. Antennae directivity, etc.) Might be another video. Great Job !!
Controlling home appliances with this is the best project.
You have the patience of Jobe my friend 😁 Fun stuff!
There’s a lot of value in using this as a primary form of comm for a local group in a grid down scenario as it has some level of encryption. Then switch over to VHF voice if this UHF method cannot reach the distant end.
4:06 "This is not a permanent solution"
Are we taking bets on how long this "not permanent" solution is in use :D
There's nothing more permanent than a temporary solution
Great explanation of the grid 👍
Amazing detail! I appreciate you.
I can’t remember the formula for power attenuation but I’m pretty sure it includes a square of the distance, a cube if it’s a spherical signal. So it would have been better to start at say 1k, then 2k then 2.5k then 2.75k etc
Can you elaborate a commercial approach to increase the range with power attenuation
@@teachusmore that so not really what I was talking about. I was talking about how the signal power doesn’t degrade linearly with distance. However that does suggest an answer and that is to get the signal is linear as possible and that will depend on the antennas used. You would want possibly a helical or parabolic antenna but the problem you have then is that you then need to have them pointed in the right direction. The commercial approach is in the name “mesh”: simply add more nodes.
A couple of questions:
1. Can more than one phone / tablet connect to one LoRa device at a time?
2. I’m guessing if someone sends a message from device A out to and device B isn’t connected, that message is “lost”. So best to check if anyone is “listening” before sending a detailed message. Is that correct?
3. If I have three LoRa units and three devices connected and one device broadcasts a message, the other two will receive it? (Party line essentially)
4. Any channel changing option so a couple people can communicate directly and keep the primary channel / frequency open?
I’m trying to see how we can use this in a remote community so appreciate all the info and help! Thanks!
I believe more than one phone or tablet could be used for one LoRa device but not at the same time.
LoRa devices will give mesh status for those they hear but the don’t denote of a phone or tablet is connected so messages could be lost.
It works like a party line, yes.
You could have three LoRa nodes connected to three different networks and jump between them with one phone.
Awesome, as always!
Food for thought: The European band for this LoRa device is 433 mhz. Here in the states, that's inside our 70cm amateur band (420-450mhz). Why then, other than the technicality about encryption, couldn't we use that device into a repeater or an amplifier? As I see it, it's a data signal, so why not?
What i think would make this a truly perfect "off grid" type of device would be if there was some way to connect to it, and it automatically give you a link to an "offline" locally stored version of the app. or ability to use a web browser so anyone could connect to it that wasnt before and have the ability to use it. it would be something great to have in a "all comms" (aka cell\internet) down scenario . im sure it wouldnt take much processing power or space on the ROM to have a mini web-server built in to it. but its a cool start to something.
The device has a web landing page and can be hooked up to your wifi. I just haven’t made that video yet. 🤣
So if you dont have the app how will the device send you a message with a link?
Master soldering dexterity 👌
Thanks!!
To revive an old video, just got 8.7 miles out of our t-beams last night. No relay nodes, just the 2 nodes that my buddy and i had
Nice video, well done, thank you for sharing the knowledge with us :)
Thank you for doing the range test. I'm still concerned with the application I want to do it for, since the homes we want to link, one of them is deep in the valley. Even though it is only one mile away, there's lots of vegetation and rocky terrain between these two points. So I don't think LoRA will work. It would be better if they just wasn't scared of taking the Tech. license since I can reach there with just my HT's, but it is what it is. FRS won't reach. It might just be GMRS then.
A MURS radio would probably work well for your terrain, much better than FRS. I use the Retevis RT21V with a Nagoya 771 antenna.
this is an ideal use case for a mesh network. another node at the top of the valley could be used as a repeater. a camo case and a solar panel, nail it to a tree or something. they are cheap enough you could spread a couple around to really get some coverage.
@@arjovenzia came to say exactly this, thats the beauty of mesh. You can go as far as you would like depending on what you wish to spend on your own infrastructure.
Great guide, thanks a ton for this!
I just wanted to know about encryption, thank you for clearing.
Regards
Just patiently waiting for the t-echos to be back in stock
You should check out the Recticulum network, similar concept and has some cool features regarding encryption and protocols.
I would encourage folks to try this stuff out and the meshtastic team is pretty darn cool, but know that this not at all ready for prime time. I am a techie with some serious professional experience in related fields, but I feel like I have falling down a rabbit hole trying to get this set up and ready for my community, I do not think it is going to happen.
Update:
The things go to sleep and wake up randomly, I am seeing so many issues and feeling overwhelmed with just how far from complete this project is. It is all being created in folks free time, so I get it, but just don't prop these things up before they are ready, cause this is not at all ready! :(
What’s the best simple way to communicate with a family member in another state during a grid down situation?
So in essence, Lora devices are low powered wifi repeaters for a closed off network and you use a special app as your messenger to communicate between devices attached to the access points?
Hi Josh. Really appreciate your out and about driving tests. Adds a lot of practical information. LoRa T-beam seems to be a “do it yourself Gotenna”?
Thanks! Yes. It’s a diy goTenna with greater functionality though.
Thats funny, i am a rc pilot and i got a lora system called expresslrs with which you can get more than 30 kilometers of range on 2.4ghz 100mw and 50hz packet rate
I think it would be kool to add a strong magnet on the case so you can drive around and not worry about it flying away. Like a mag mount antanea.
I am a ham myself (W8MLD), and I find these fascinating. I may give this a shot. I wonder if they can use tropo or are the frequencies too high? Plus being spread spectrum I guess it might not work all that well. I will check Andrias’ video for more information. Thanks
With the current supply chain issues from China, how likely are we to see these devices get shipped and received in the US? Or do they deliver stuff like this via aircraft instead of container ship? Seems to me that anything from overseas is gonna be a real problem to get right now.
G'day at 12:24 you say that is a frequency hopping spread spectrum system. LoRa modulation is a spread spectrum like technology in that the transmission is swept across the channel bandwidth. This give it a unique appearance in a waterfall display. LoRa and as far as I can see Meshtastics implementation does not use frequency hopping. I'm new to Meshtastic but as far as I've seen the frequency is determined when the "channel" is created isn't it?
I heard that there was a massive crash of devices at defcon this year when a bunch of nodes started up :-)
Very informative.
Going through all your videos. Great stuff. Thanks for taking the time to share.
One question - Where did you get your project clamp/vise? I'd love one like that for some of the small work I do.
It’s a cheap PCB vice off Amazon.
It's not entirely correct to say that the range of LoRa is line of sight. LoRa is a modulation technique that may be applied to any radio signal. It's generally the power level and operating frequency in the (RF) environment that determines range. Having said that it is the adoption of LoRa that provides your signal with additional performance benefits and these can be really impressive. Amongst other things i) LoRa allows the trade-off between data rate and range ii) LoRa can operate below the noise floor - providing incredible margins and iii) being a spread spectrum technology it can operate in a shared frequency range. (There are others but my pedantic meter needle has just wrapped itself around the end stop) :)
That’s interesting and yes, I see what you’re saying. Going to have to look into LoRa over hf soon. 😅
@@HamRadioCrashCourse As soon as I submitted that, I thought about the very wide modulation bandwidth compared to the carrier frequency. There are the legal restrictions of course but it could be that you could get away with a very low carrier power so that it is well below the noise floor (only you know it's there) :) But come on the Russian got away with 'The Woodpecker' for years. Go for it! :)
Might wanna update that AliExpress link! 😂
get a proper 915 mhz antenna for your tbeam and have it installed on your car roof . helps a lot.
I think I'm going to have to go to the Discord page and read up on this. While I understand, what seems to be the basics, I'm still lost in it's total purpose and capabilities. Kind of like giving a baby a hammer. I might be one of the absolute walnuts mentioned in the pinned comment, LOL. Thanks for the video, it did help, but it left me...
You use this to send text message off grid when the cellphones are down.
I just wanted to ask, each LoRa device has a 2~2.5mi range in the city. BUT!!! They can leapfrog a message across them correct? So if you had one 2mi away (at a neighbor’s house), and then one at 4 mi away (at a second neighbor’s house) and then one 6 mi away (at maybe an office) and each was 2 mi away from the next one, the home device could send/receive messages to the device at the office through the other two LoRas, correct?
Thats right!
Excellent !
Very interesting!
put a T-beam on a large delta kite and anchor the kite. put the kite up 400-600ft in the air and then range test.
Great content, thank you!
Thank you for watching.
Why not a series of small solar-powered dirigibles strung across a large urban area? Something practical that can stay aloft for a few weeks at a time. I am unsure what all this would prove but I am sure it would satisfy your curiosity.
Any recommendations on antenna upgrades for this device??
Metastatic would be far more popular. If any other mesh could route through someone else's mesh. This would encourage users to put up permanent repeaters. And create a wide reception area. This will be encrypted end to end so even passing through someone else's network can't be snooped.
RUclipsr Andreas Speiss has tested Lora up to 30+ KM using other antennas.
He has gone way over 30km
Do we know how many jumps meshtastic can make? Say I in theory had 1000 of these could a message be sent in a chain them from 1-1000th device
I do screens by soldering the short end of header to screen, and then soldering the whole thing to the board. Just the way that works for me (and the 100+ hotspots I have built).
Ahh interesting.
I guess you’re heating the screen twice. Ever have a failure?
@@HamRadioCrashCourse it doesnt create any damage to the screen if you do it without mistakes. Usually when theres a heat sensitive part i need to work with, I apply a bit of flux so the solder heats evenly thus taking less time to work with it. then clean the area with some IPA in a q tip. Also, when soldering sensitive parts, its not recommended to go past 420c in the iron. my preferred temp is 380c for the 90% stuff i work with.
@@Intimidator443 Depends on the composition of your solder 95/5 SN/AG, tin, silver, won't even melt at 420, I believe you meant 420F not 420C as 420C is 788 degrees fahrenheit, enough to melt pure lead. If you are worried about heat slow down let each pin cool, also can mitigate heat by not soldering pins in a row, just make sure to inspect that you got them all before declaring it done. but 380 is generally good for 60/40 Sn.Pb, i.e. Tin / Lead, though I have noticed that each iron is different I have two Identical station, one for lead and one for no lead, lent my lead to a buddy, he was late getting it back to me so had to use my no lead for a job had to set it 50 degrees hotter than normal, these are "identical" stations, same power supply same iron.
@@at1cvb417 yes, meant f not c that was my bad. Sometimes i get confused while translating from spanish to english. I use 60/40 rosin core solder which melts perfectly at 380f. If its non lead solder requires more heat to melt.
Thank you.
great video 👏
For those of you still wrapped around the axle, consider these points:
1. Just because your grid is down doesn't mean the entire grid or Internet is down. During several hurricanes in Louisiana, we had no electricity for over a week but the cellular Internet was up the whole time. It can happen. Also, working in disaster zones, even if your infrastructure is wiped out, doesn't mean it isn't working next town or county over. A portable network like this allows comms inside rhe disaster zone and connectivity outside the zone.
2. Text comms are similar to military burst transmission. Fast and harder to pinpoint than voice by quite a bit.
3. If you don't have a group, you may not need comms. Comms are a combat multiplier of huge proportion. Shoot, move and communicate are the three things you need to do to stay alive in the military.
How about building a solar powered unit. Great content and presentation. Thanks