Leonard Bernstein Discussing Beethoven's 6th and 7th Symphony
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- Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2024
- Leonard Bernstein and Maximilian Schell discuss some of the aspects of the Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral" and Symphony No. 7 by Ludwig Van Beethoven. They also discuss his life and how he composed some of his music.
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in a world of twitter and youtube where everyone is an expert it's a joy to listen, even if only for 8 minutes, to a real expert
I could listen to Bernstein talking about music until the end of time and never get bored.
He is so eloquent. He carries it in his soul.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could hear him expound on music - and society today.
Me Two
How you could not love Bernstein after listening him discussing music is beyond me. His passion for music is entrancing.
Agree or disagree with Bernstein. His intellect and art are both eloquent and accessible. A truly unique talent and educator. His Norton lectures are a treasure.
Les Goe surfin now Everybody’s fuguing now come on let’s tickle the ivories !
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Perfect statement. I don't care if I disagree or agree, I'm learning so much by the second. At 67 years old!
Thank you for sharing the lectures name's!
What's fascinating about Beethoven's struggles to come up with the right notes, as Berstein describes here, is that Beethoven was a supreme improviser. Beethoven's struggles are more a reflection of his uncompromising will for perfection.
Agree.
Absolutely brilliant observation. The reason I don’t enjoy composing myself is because of my natural ability to instantly improvise melodies and it drives me insane to compose. I can never choose what to put down, there are are too many choices and decision to create, as Bernstein puts it, the “form”. That’s why creating ambient sound scapes based on vertical layering with no discernible beginning or end to the composition, as opposed to a linear melody, is enjoyable to me.
stellar point, I would imagine that Beethoven had an endless amount of avenues he could venture into. While improvising, those avenues could be explored and then vanish as soon as he finished playing. Writing down the notes on paper might have made every choice feel so much more critical to get correct, because once you publish a piece its permanent.
Hence just nine symphonies compared to Haydn's 104.
@@NohSpinZone
104! Jeez ... I didn’t know he composed that many! And Haydn, like Beethoven, was a genius.
Leonard Bernstein & Maximilian Schell. Two great men. One a legendary music composer and the other a legendary actor. Both sadly gone but not forgotten.
Mr. Bernstein was the best music teacher I ever had! I never missed any of his young people's concerts. Total genius!
What musical genius could ever claim that Beethoven was not a great melody writer? Perhaps a jealous fool who never produced anything substantial himself, whose works are completely irrelevant only a few decades after being produced.
@@willashland4597why would a music lecturer hate on Beethoven while tecching about him? Dont you think you re mistaking a musical scholar concept for hate? If you listen to Bernstein more often you d know how he establish the difference between melody, harmony, symphony.. you re the one spurrign jealousy here with your comment.
@@dimitricayard630 Bernstein is not qualified to speak on Beethoven in the slightest. As I said before, Beethoven was a fantastic melodist and composer of harmony. As a student of music myself I am more than qualified to speak on the three elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm... not symphony as you stated).
If Bernstein says Beethoven was a lackluster conposer of melodies, or that any child could have composed the second movement of the 7th Symphony, then I say Bernstein is talking out of his ass.
No hate, just recognizing that there are levels to these things. And while Bernstein is a great keyboard player and conductor, he is a lackluster composer since most people and even music fans are completely unfamiliar with his forgettable works.
@@willashland4597 allow me to point out that you are either funny or lack some coherence here. while You are using the fact that you are a musical student to refute Berstein's comment on Beethoven, do you even ask yourself from which kind of right does Berstein allows himself to comment on Beethoven lol? Berstein might have been just a random man trying to comment on magicals composers to make a living lol ? You re using your scholar background to diminish the work of a far greater scholar than you. Come on now. "wise" yourself down a bit. By the way I wish you success in your musical studies. I appreciate anything others can do better than me. Peace !
@@dimitricayard630 It sounds to me like you are committing an appeal to authority fallacy here. Your claim seems to be that Bernstein is a high ranking professor of music, therefore he must be right and we cannot understand it because we are so far beneath his credentials. This is a form of elitism which gives maybe too much validity to training and stature and underemphasizes one's own capabilities.
By music student, I mean that I have played music all my life. I know pieces by Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy, Rachmaninoff, and can elaborate on the musical theory, the imagery and expression, the technique, and many other things. This doesn't give me the same esteem as Bernstein but I can certainly hold my own when discussing a certain piece of music.
I just think Bernstein's claims about Beethoven are crap. Some individuals with esteem will use their unique position to make claims that seem exactly opposite to what is actually true, because they believe their position allows them to make a seemingly contradictory and incorrect claim which would only add to their esteem and mystique since the unwashed mortals could never possibly understand it. I think that is what Bernstein did here, sort of using his prestige to make an outlandish claim knowing that few other people living would have the reputation to even question it publicly. There is a lot of elitism in academic and concert circles, and a lot of people sniffing their own farts. I think this is a video of Bernstein sniffing his own farts but they will never be as good as Beethoven's
Without Beethoven I would never had made it through high school.
Without Beethoven, I probably wouldn't have made it, period...
True, that!
y not lady gaga
Without Beethoven I can't get through the work day.
Nice pup on your profile
I never get tired of listening to Leonard Bernstein, also because of his beautiful voice.
Even as a child I was enthralled by the slow movement of the 7th --- now Bernstein has explained why -- it was simply 'phoned in from God' .... brilliant comment!
Beethoven in a past life interview, recently said he used to get his best musical ideas during long daily walks in nature, through the forest near his home. That was when inspiration hit him.
Gotta love Bernstein’s personality. Strong bones and strong hands usually translate into a personality. He talks with great subtlety about delicate things, but his body says “rough”, “powerful”, “get out of my fucking way” assertiveness.
At 7:05 Maximilian Schell asks Bernstein what makes Beethoven interesting..... and Lenny's answer is probably the pithiest, yet most profound, statement of what makes Beethoven great. Maybe the greatest. _"And what has finally appeared as the finished product looks as though it was simply phoned in from God."_ Hard to believe that Bernstein has been gone for over 30 years! And yet, thanks to his recordings and something he'd never even heard of in his life, the Internet, his wisdom lives on for future generations.
One genius speaking about another. This sort of thing should happen more often in life.
I listened to Bernstein wherever I can find him!!
He was so important to me as a child. When I grew up, I was fortunate to hear him conduct in NYC.
🙏❤️🌎🌍🌏🌿🕊🎵🎶🎵💫✨️💫✨️
What makes Beethoven unique to me is that from an almost non-melody he was able to weave what, to me, is among the most beautiful, expressive and emotive melodies of all. Every note of the 6th Symphony astounds me but, without fail, when a few bars of the simplest woodwind phrase enters in the final movement, it provokes the most profound reaction in me. It sends me close to tears every time without fail and, even though my ear knows it intimately by now, it continues to astound me. These are tears not of sadness but of an indescribable beauty. A simple phrase makes the whole symphony complete. That's Beethoven for me. The individual bars are unremarkable surely, but every one of them is necessary, appropriate, required.
Nicely expressed.
Graham, this is beautifully expressed. I think Bernstein misses a very important point you made: the building blocks he uses are not important. The effect of the whole is what's important. To me, Beethoven's melodies are the most beautiful of all because they're the most evocative and emotionally salient. It doesn't matter that their basic building blocks might by themselves be uninteresting. The basic building blocks are not the melody. The whole is the melody. So to me Beethoven is the greatest melodist we've had because of the emotional effect his melodies produce on the listener.
@@julieconnard4372 I agree with you Julie. Beethoven IS one of the greatest melodists who ever lived, however he arrived at them. I think Bernstein is fascinating whenever he talks about music but he is also a controversialist (not unlike Beethoven). Tovey had a better idea of Beethoven and melody when he said that Beethoven transforms/ transfigures melody into something higher, something else (I can't remember the exact words but it was along those lines). Glenn Gould was another great teacher and thinker about music who also liked to put forward controversial ideas. Thank God for them all.
@davetubervid Indeed, thank God for them all. I really like what Tovey said, about Beethoven transfiguring melody into something higher. I think that's a perfect understanding of him. And I think that's why Beethoven took longer to write than Mozart or Haydn. B wasn't looking for melody for its own sake. he was looking for something higher. And for our sake, it's a darned good thing that he so often found it.
If only Mozart had remained alive to hear Beethoven’s symphonies, all nine of them. Mozart was most influenced by Bach but if he had listened to the mature Beethoven it would have had a profound effect on his music.
He is quite critical of him, good and bad, a true assessment. At the end he sums it up and says the next note was always right... phoned in from God. Perfection. No other did that.
When he said the "negatives" about Beethoven, he was trying to tell you that Beethoven was able to create those beautiful pieces out of the melodies and harmonies that appear to be so simple. That was the gist of his words, everything else was not as important! As he said, Beethoven was doing what no one else could. He was not trying to judge Beethoven, but rather, praise the genius in Beethoven in his own way. A great upload. Thanks!
I can't imagine growing up without Beethoven. Bernstein's Children's Concert's were a delight for my whole family.
I don't know what's more enjoyable to listen to: The way Bernstein conducts Beethoven; or the way Bernstein talks about Beethoven.
I agree!
Yes, that's what I was thinking. His talk drives one to go back and listen to those portions.
Bernstein was the greatest American-born conductor, a fine American composer of classical music who was also composed the music for arguably the most popular Broadway musical (West Side Story). He was also a very good pianist and a wonderful teacher. His passion and his love for Beethoven is obvious. It's not that we have to agree with everything Bernstein has to say about the music, it's that his enthusiasm, his passion, his ability to express deep musical theory in accessible yet articulate language, that also causes us to love the music. America's most famous psychologist, BF Skinner, once said something along the lines that school's shouldn't teach children to read, they should teach children to love books. That's what Bernstein does, he teaches us to love music. Bernstein's thoughts on Beethoven are well-taken, at least by me. He's not putting Beethoven down because other composers could do some things better than Beethoven. He's saying that Beethoven's hard work and creative genius is what makes the music great despite some obvious limitations. Bernstein's first Beethoven cycle that he made for Columbia with the New York Philharmonic is my favorite above Karajan, Furtwangler, Szell, Hogwood, Toscanini and all others I've heard.
Beautifully said! I love what you said about Beethoven's creative genius, the whole being more than the sum of its parts. Bernstein really revered Beethoven and "knew" him well. Lenny was supremely gifted and talented, but I think his ability to teach and convey his love of music was his greatest gift of all. When you watch him conduct, it's as though he can't contain his joy. I have a CD set of Bernstein and the NY Phil doing the cycle of Beethoven's symphonies, along with several overtures and the Violin Concerto (Isaac Stern!)...I have a couple of major road trips coming in the Fall, and I can't wait to spend some quality time with Ludwig van, Lenny, Isaac and the NY Phil!
one might say beethoven's greatness was borne of his ability to build magnificent music out of very meager material. that's probably why he wrote it.
@coach garcia I love the skinner comparison. Lenny loved music and it bled into everything he did. And like a good hearted child with extra candy, he wanted to share it. And I agree about his conducting. I love Von Karajan and especially Kleiber. But there was a magic when Lenny conducted Beethoven. Especially the symphonies. No one did the third or the sixth like him. Magical.
Can you give me a few examples of people who taught deep musical theory who were not accessible and articulate in their language? I'd like to contrast their approach to doing so with Bernstein's.
It is the only musical I like cuz he wrote the score - his taste is impeccable
I enjoyed watching this video even though I had no clue what he was talking about.
You're an idiot! :)
I was referring to the idea that fartx211 was trying to understand this video and not enjoy it. Great art is supposed to transcend things like trying to understand it as opposed to just feeling it. Maybe I was a little harsh at this person. And I respect your point of view, even if you called me an asshole.
REMORF AND CFC: I speak to both of your apparent deficits: the abundant musical ones and your low-level of comprehension. Your noises are little more than the abject commentaries of puerile poseurs. You have, apparently, missed your true callings as bear-trainers or swine-herds. I have some Mistletoe, left over from Xmas, it's taped to the small of my back, please feel free to come over and put it to use....anytime.....
Show less
Peace Alex Reik. I should've further indicated my ":)" symbol after I said "You're an idiot." I guess sarcasm and humor are hard to indicate in print.
That's the magic of being exposed to genuine people
“In Beethoven’s case, it is always the right next note.” Pretty much sums it up.
But people say the same about some other composers as well like Bach and Mozart. I think it's more Bernstein expressing a romantic view of art.
@@starry2006 totally agreed.
@@starry2006he literally said “not even mozart” after that
What a guy to learn from. Knew his music inside and out and, at least as importantly, knew how to convey it.
This was a little hypnotic. His authority is stunning and it's natural. Two gorgeous men right there.
The Maestro was perfect in every way. The genius of geniuses. He can do no wrong on my eyes. I was born with his music playing and I’ll be lowered with his music playing.
Me too !
4:03 Beethoven's musical talent transforms serious faces into smiling faces. What a moment and what a melody indeed!
Bernstein says that Beethoven was not this or that but he implies that Beethoven was about much more than individual components. Clearly this is someone who studied Beethoven like few by considering manuscripts, historical context and even accounts from Beethoven's personal life! I just think that it's easy-and cheap really- to simplify Bernstein's argument to "Beethoven was a bad orchestrator" despite the fact that that's what he literally says. There's something to be said about the fact that Bernstein's last concert was Beethoven 7.
I just think most viewers miss the point.
Well said!
I hear what you say. Bernstein likes to be provocative. i suspect he really meant that beethoven didn't follow all of the rules of music theory. but in so doing he managed to create greatness from relatively meager material, such as the fugal material beginning the second movement of his seventh symphony.
Yes! We casually smoked in those days..... What a moment, to hear about Beethoven's struggles and issues, and see Maximilian Schell spellbound by Bernstein..... Thank you!
Bernstein died aged 72 of heart failure (premature), but he was subject to frequent respiratory infections, emphysema and had some kind of pulmonary tumor.
@@karinberryman7970 Hell, what is "premature" at 72. My best friend died at 24 in a climbing accident, I think that 72 is a good age.
You completely missed the point. What Lenny was talking about is not the ability of finding the missing note of a given melody or harmony like in a music school test, but just the genius of creating music that sounds impredictable yet so right and inevitable like Beethoven's. Otherwise, you must agree, all trained composers could be him. Bernstein speech must be taken in a metaphoric and broader way, trying to explain what otherwise is hardly explicable: Beethoven's Gestalt.
A common term for this is "unexpected inevitability", and is applicable to other art forms like literature.
Lenny? Seriously?
@@topophil 😂😂
I got goosebumps at the end of this. I've got to hear more of Bernstein's insights into great composers because I think his analyses are brilliant.
Great explanation, which I still don't fully understand (after 40 yrs of playing music), but I love Bernstein pulling his cig out at 1.40 without missing a beat explaining Beethovens concept and approach. A true legend.
I LOVE B'S 6TH PASTORAL, ITS BEAUTIFUL & UNIQUE☺☺☺its my favorite ever written!!
I( was lucky enough to buy (in early 1960s) a Beethovens 3rd symphony which included an EP of Leonard Berstein discussing the sympnony. I have been an absolute admirer of his depth and understanding of his passion for Beethoven since then
I could listen to him for hours.
🙏🤗💜🧡💛💚🎵🎶🎵🎶
Always fascinating...ever knowledgable...Schell like many of us found him captivating. For me, his piano performing, and role as teacher were the highlight of his world, and his gifts.
really enjoyed Berstein's explanation of Beethoven's greatness. it is the form.
Imagine if Beethoven suddenly burst into the room and shouted SCHEISSE!!!!
Why should Beethoven shout:"Scheisse"?
Because his ears were burning
@@ishtar2848 because all the Berstein staff was bull shit!!!!
If Beethoven burst into the room he’s ask Lenny to bum a cigarette
"Das ist scheissemusik!"😣
Rest in peace, Lennie and Max.
Depressing to discover Max sexually abused his daughter and his niece. Rest in peace Lenny.
Lennie, I can forgive the wrong notes in lieu of the vast information, and style you impart to us with your cunning insight into the musical creativity of our Beethoven. Spreading knowledge was your souls gift, and I hope that continues into the next realm.
😒
Very interesting how the melody launches on a single note carried to a full bloom by basically ornamentations. Great lectures. Makes me experience music with a renewed freshness.
"You like that melody? You do? So do I.
newenglandartiste Sexy Maestro!!.
@@SarahJones-wy5us Greatness! Leonard Bernstein was from Lawrence Massachusetts about 45 min. from me.
@@newenglandartiste Did you ever see him?
@@SarahJones-wy5us No, I didn't unfortunately.
Are you a musician and fan of both Bernstein and Beethoven?
Leonard Bernstein: ' Sorry for the wrong notes'. Thelonius Monk: ' There are no wrong notes on the piano.' Love them both
Here is my take on Beethoven's supposed lack of a melodic gift. When he wanted to, he could write a melody up there with anybody--the G Major intermezzo in the slow movement of the 9th Symphony, the cello solo at the beginning of the slow movement of Op. 59 #1, the second theme of the slow movement of the Second Symphony etc. etc. etc. But the thing about a gorgeous melody a la Tchaikovsky is that it has a beginning, a middle, and end--and then you are done. You either have to repeat it, get locked in a sequence or, as Prokofiev did all too often, pull a Monty Python "And now for something completely different" move. A very few composers--Schubert, Dvorak--got around this problem with a relaxed, digressive style, but this was not in Beethoven's musical character. And it is interesting to note that in many of Schubert's most compelling large-scale structures, such as the Ninth Symphony and the G Major Quartet, he eschews conventionally beautiful melodies much of the time. So Beethoven needed building blocks which were not complete in themselves to create a continuous compelling structure.
yeah the problem is that Bernstein restricted his definition of melody to an arching sequence of notes found in others like Tchaikovsky. It's pretty weird since he's quite fond of Stravinsky's le Sacre du Printemps, which in it's entirety is filled with Stravinsky constructing giant structures by combining small phrases without a classical, arching melody
Nocynic: I really like your angle of approach, and I couldn't agree more. Another example of this is the slow movement of Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto, beholden to Mozart but with several twists and turns that are totally Beethoven... Often it isn't about the melody but what he can do with variations to enhance the original melody - therein lies his stunning ability to surprise. For those that think Beethoven wasn't a great melodist (along with his uncanny ability to develop a melody) I think his song "Adelaide" is a great example to the contrary. Schubert definitely admired this one. Cheers, FB ruclips.net/video/oACZdxbGmqw/видео.html
@@skisunfb But the surprise element you mention there (which can relate to others like Mozart perhaps) suggests there isn't that inevitability. That would make something too predictable, so I think Bernstein romanticises. Mozart and Bach probably flow more in general.
Yes, extended interesting coherence is much harder than a series of coherent fragments. For example, Rachmaninoff but not Mahler.
@@NewMusicWeekly For me, that depends on which Mahler you are talking about. I would agree that a number of his middle period symphonies are rather diffuse. But the First, Second, and Ninth have extraordinary structural integrity.
No one better to express the intelligence that puts all together like a ghostly presence in artistic creation
Brilliant lesson here. Two great artists, now sadly no longer with us, talking about an even greater one who died nearly two centuries ago.
I’m so grateful for these videos resurfacing. He should have lived longer.
"As far as his orchestration is concerned, you could have it...the melodies go like that..." lol I love how Lenny talks.
Wow, I loved this journey with the genius LB. I had the 7th on my mind and stumbled on the master.
I just saw the movie Maestro and it was profoundly disappointing.... none of this magic about music was in the movie.
imagine expecting anything from movies in 21st century
Always watch a movie without expectations. It wouldn’t have been disappointing if you hadn’t gone in expecting a movie full of music talk. It’s about his life, not his opinions on Beethoven
Too much sex and too little about his joy in music. They could have made the movie as musical movements and done so much better
Not what the movie was about.
The film is not a Biopoc. It's a portrait focusing on Leonard's marriage and his struggles within.
Max - was für ein feinfühliger und schöner Mann er war..
Lenny, we miss you so much !
When I was a kid my mother used to make me watch Leonard Bernstein on the weekends when he had his PBS show. I'm appreciating him now.
Got it wrong
...Leonard Bernstein was saying..That He Loved Beethoven In that his Genius was in the Form of his Efforts not The Technical Melodic Orchestra Arrangements
The second movement of his 7th symphony is one of my all time favorites. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I just wanted to say, thanks very much for uploading this, I hadn't seen it before. It meant a lot. What Bernstein said resonated with me. Cheers.
Fascinating. I am a music-lover with no training in music. My tastes are broad, and I have always held Bernstein in the very highest regard as a composer. And here he uses the very words-the very words-that I use to describe his work to describe Beethoven: each note in every piece is unpredictable but inevitable and the only possible option which resonates with the work as a whole. Bernstein here claims the Beethoven wrote as if he had a telephone connection with God. I’ve often thought the same of Bernstein.
Many viewers of this vid may not know that Maximilian Schell was an accomplished amateur pianist.
I certainly didnt know it.
Yea and you may be aware that your comment has no relevance to what's being discussed. Smh...
Or, maybe it's nice to learn trivia about a famous actor that lends a bit of extra interest to the interview.
I know him as an accomplished actor. I could tell that he was a good musician the way he went through the score so easily.
@@Lee_music249 It doesn't have any relevance? Bernstein explaining these things to an obviously well-trained musician is much different than explaining it to a non-musician. it's very relevant seeing how two musicians work together to gain a better understanding of a piece of music.
Leonard Bernstein. A giant in music , an exceptional talent.. One of the best!
Interesting drawing room fare with two guys who reached the top of their professions. Both Lenny and Max have left us. Lenny reached the top of the music world and Maximilian Schell (who passed just over a year ago as of this writing, in Feb 2014), earned a 1962 Academy Award for best actor.
"Judgment at Nuremberg" is a great film, and Schell is great in it, along with Spencer Tracy.
Very well said, your comment
Yes, so consider this, a nine minute clip of Leonard Bernstein Discussing Beethoven's 6th and 7th Symphony. Here Bernstein is discussing these two important pieces with film director and actor Maximilian Schell. Across the eight minutes Bernstein educates, plays the piano, fiddles with his cigarette and has a drink sitting atop the piano.
Quite brilliant.
🤩Schell looks on, smoking, encouraging and often, Schell’s face assumes a brooding like Beethoven.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
You can see Bernstein's playful, flirtatious (even with another man!) spirit at around 5:50. That smile creeping across his face, as he goes on to ask a schoolboyish, docilely-listening Schell, "Do you like that melody? You do? So do I." Always has me roaring with laughter. One of my favourite clips on YT!
longtalker What an earth do you mean? "even with another man" Bernstein was GAY.
@@SarahJones-wy5us What's your point? Lenny was charismatic and very much a social animal. Just because he was bisexual doesn't mean he had sexual feelings for every man, just as a straight person doesn't have sexual feelings towards everyone of the opposite sex.
@@annedwyer797
The point is wasted on you ,in the earlier comment it was thought amazing that Bernstein could flirt with another man,that is the "Point" you totally misconstrued.
Didn't know he was, but the thought entered my mind just by listening to his voice in this clip
I love listening to Berstein. I love his conducting as well. He was truly a master of insight.
As a non-musician most of this is over my head, but Bernstein's mastery of the concepts and his explication are entertaining in their own right.
Well said
@@rationalistssj6540 Thank you! :)
We agree...his music seems already done and perfect
One of the rare RUclips videos that has no dislikes
Bernstein was such a captivating speaker. Also, I’m guessing he’s improvising those arrangements of Beethoven symphonies at the piano, and that’s very impressive too.
everything is so unpredictable and yet so right! Agree!!!
Bernstein said that Beethoven knows better than others what the next step should be. He's right! In other words, it's called Logic. Beethoven is really a great architect of the linear chronological unfolding of musical thoughts, that is, the prosaic form. The way he moves from the simple to the complex, what complex invents ways, variations, developments, it’s incredible
TWO EXCEPTIONAL...TWO BEAUTIFUL SOULS....RIP
To be fair to Bernstein, it was "en vogue" at that time to rip Beethoven to shreds (proving once again that general academia had and always will have about as much sense as a hatpin), so him saying that ANY aspect of Beethoven was perfect is something.
However, he is totally disprovable in every claim he makes. Beethoven's orchestrations were great for the orchestras of the time, as brass instruments were much smaller in sound, so they needed to have a correspondingly higher dynamic marking.
His melodies were fantastic in pieces that needed them (Pathetique sonata, movement 2 comes to mind), but as Beethoven wrote in motifs, melody was completely unnessential, and almost useless in many cases.
As for harmony, just go to his Late Period catalogue and try to find that kind of harmony in ANY music before it, not to mention crazy-ass modulations no one would have even attempted but him.
As for fugues...haha...hahahahah...HAHAHAHAHA*falls down laughing while clutching Große Fugue score*
Mahler wrote a few stunning melodies in his time (sixth symphony, 3rd movement comes to mind), but Bernstein does fall flat with that argument in hypocrisy, as Mahler wrote in motifs as well.
As for fugues, Mozart has a few stunning fugues, but besides him and Beethoven, no one else really did try.
I don't think Bernstein cared too much about being "en vogue." And call me crazy but I'm giving more credibility to Leonard Bernstein's opinion than some anonymous guy on YT. Nothing personal.
Bernstein ALWAYS cared about public opinion on classical music. It's how he made his career. Plus, he can be literally proven wrong on every single point he makes in this video. It's not even a difference of taste - he's definitively wrong on each argument, and it can be backed up with Beethoven's own music. An orchestrator on RUclips actually made a video detailing exactly why Bernstein was wrong. Just because Bernstein was a great conductor and composer does not make him infallible, nor does that grant him credibility in the face of evidence.
Ethan A. Again, who has more credibility: an "orchestrator on you tube" or Leonard effing Bernstein? You'll need to provide some sources with a little more gravitas if you want to convince me.
Fine. You want proof? Beethoven wrote motivically, not melodically. This can be evidenced by the use of motif clusters across most of his pieces following the end of his First Period. The most apparent is in the 5th Symphony, with the 4-note opening motif, the horn solo after the first section, and many other motifs. The piece does not have a melody, because the structure of the music would not fit one. The piece Bernstein was criticising as being "without melody" was designed that way.
As for harmony, one need only look as far as the 9th Symphony. Beethoven made shifts in ways such as totally expanding from D major to Ab major during the choral sections. However, unusual progressions were used to break up the monotony of the simple sections in any number of his compositions. The piece Bernstein chose (the 7th symphony) to demonstrate a lack of harmony was not denoting a lack of ability to write complex chord progressions. Beethoven wrote a simply opening to ensure that it would be engrained in the audience's head (simple=easier to remember), and then developed it through various orchestrations and transformations (with odd chords galore).
Beethoven's fugal writing was excellent. He wrote the Große Fuge, which is perhaps the most complex fugue written at the time, and follows all Fugue rules for its respective sections, excluding one small Fugatto. Moreover: by the time of Beethoven, the Fugue was an extinct form of writing (its peak was in the late 1600s to the 1720s - look at when Bach and Händel wrote their music as compared to Beethoven), thus, even if Beethoven had never written a good fugue, it would have been totally irrelevant to the music of his day.
As for instruments - the trumpet of Beethoven's day was without pistons or valves, meaning that the notes the trumpet could play were severely limited. Indeed, the only reliable section of the range to play was the upper partials, and that meant that the design of the instrument was such to try and ensure ease of access to the highest notes, as well as a mellower tone. Beethoven's use of brass was practical - the instruments were quieter and could only play a few notes in the range he needed them in. His orchestration was designed for the orchestras of the time, not for the New York Philharmonic, and when they are played by period instruments with the correct number of players (which you can find on RUclips), the sound is much more balanced.
I want to have a drink and wax poetic about Beethoven with Lenny. This was great. Thank you.
7:26
Upon composing the 'Hallelujah Chorus,' in his oratorio Messiah, Handel stated: "I think I did see all heaven before me, and the great God himself." A telephone wire. . . . 🎶
It's always so interesting to hear Lennie talk music. And that Beethoven is not a great melodist, which I've often thought, but I thought it would get me trouble to say so.
Try Ben Zander too!
I don't agree with everything Bernstein says here but his basic point that Beethoven's genius was about form is spot on. Most of Beethoven's melodies are on the level of nursery rhymes but then he moves on from there and creates an irresistible flow that moves on and on with a sense of "inevitability" as Bernstein says.
Ode to Joy a nursery rhyme? Come on...seriously.
@@ferabra8939 It really is pretty simple nursery rhyme level, Beethoven is honestly overrated
@@ferabra8939 Even that is derived from Mozart ruclips.net/video/jvwhSkChsdo/видео.html
Imagine sitting with a man of such true talent
WOW! Bernstein always blows my mind, specially on Beethoven..Thx for uploading!
I don't agree that Beethoven never wrote a great fugue. I think that is a nonsense suggestion when Op. 106 exists, arguably one of the greatest fugues ever.
I agree with you but I think what Bernstein meant was that compared to Beethoven's achievement in getting the right form or inevitable notes, his achievement in any particular aspect of music is relatively pale. He wasn't a strong melodist and nor exceptional in counterpoint; one can't really be a great conventional fugue writer without being both. The Grosse Fuge is great but not in the conventional why -- which is what make it exceptional, but also makes Beethoven *not* a conventional fugue composer.
Absolutely. Beethoven's struggle with producing outstanding melodies burdened him (probably) in the same way that Tchaikovsky struggled with form of his larger works. The two composers had almost mirror opposite problems.
It's a true scotsman argument to say that Beethoven didn't write a good fugue. What is a 'good fugue'? What is a fugue? Both questions are imponderable.
1st movement of op. 131 string quartet is one of my favourite fugues of all time with very unconventional harmony, its hauntingly beautiful and musically communicates futility and hopelessness in the doomed pursuit of hope. I don't agree with that either!
Classical Music11 of course! 👍
One, two, or three notes. Then shift and elaborate. Majesty is achieved with deceptive simplicity.
I think that Bernstein was spot on when he talked about buds and flowers opening in Beethoven’s music . .
I get a wonderful feeling that the soul of the music/composer is *unfurling* as it goes along
The flaw in logic here is that yes, indeed, Beethoven used very simple elements in many (not ALL, okay?) of his greatest works to monumental effect. Does that mean he was incapable of complexity in his fundamental ideas, as Bernstein implies? Not at all! Great melodies? How about the Violin Concerto? Complex harmony and counterpoint? How about Die Grosse Fuge, the string quartets and the last piano sonatas? And as for orchestration, Beethoven took it farther than anyone up to his time.
I agree, I think Bernsteins logic holds up in certain circumstances. I mean, Haydn was always correcting Beethovens counterpoint while he was his teacher. His attempts at opera were not what he hoped for. and there is a lot of angst that comes out in some of his sketches.
But to say that if you take his melodies, counterpoint, harmony etc individually they are all unremarkable is borderline offensive.
we need more of this! tks
I love how Bernstein talks about Beethoven's ability to produce music that was 'inevitable'. The notes, chords, movement of the music are as they were ment to be.
probably one of the best practical demonstrations of developing variation
He did not say he was bad at any of those things. He said that if you look at Beethoven from a purely melodical standpoint he is fallible, and if you change melodical to harmonical it's the same thing looking at it individually. But thankfully music isn't always about that to the listener but everything as a whole, which Beethoven proves.
God the chemistry , can feel the fire!
So I just watched this video where Bernstein declares that the second movement of the 7th isn't much of a melody. My girlfriend overheard that small piano part from the other room, apparently has it stuck in her head, and is now humming the entire movement to herself while she works on the computer. I think that makes a statement.
It's typical because of Bernstein's academic background to consider a melody good if it follows certain rules. Beethoven wasn't capable of creating this classical definition of melody (check out sonata 13 mov. 2), but he was merely composing that way because he wanted it that way at that instance
@@lordspongebobofhousesquare1616 Exactly Beethoven didn't compose melodies the "right way" but I think he is basically saying that you can't judge Beethoven by these conventional standards
You Tube need to do more off this, would be good for kids and young now in isolation.❤️🎶🇺🇸🇩🇰👀📬
I only _liked_ your comment, because there's no _absolutely love it_ button, dear Elizabeth!
It is also possible to know quite a bit about the fugue, and see Beethoven's contrapuntal writing not as "bad" but as transformative to his own inner voice and process of shaping an emotional statement. I think it's a serious mistake to assume that because Beethoven did not compose "perfect" fugues that he was somehow incompetent...that is what's being insinuated here.
Bernstein is just the coolest. !
I think most of the commenters are taking Bernstein way too literally. I'm sure that he too believed that the opening melody in the last movement of the very symphony he is discussing (the return to the meadow after the storm) is absolutely gorgeous. I think his point was that none of the particular parts of writing classical music was Beethoven's true specialty, the one characteristic that made him famous - like Mahler's orchestration, or Dvorak's lilting melodies. Rather, it was the combination of everything that was just heavenly and sheer perfection. Moreover, even when the individual notes seem loud, contradictory and not particularly impressive, the sum total is sensational. Being the flamboyant showman that he was, he simply liked to exaggerate somewhat in telling the story.
THANK YOU.
We're listening to a man who wrote the music to "West Side Story" - music that still moves me after more then 50 years. Genius
It looks like Bernstein is enjoying a scotch as well. Good for him. I can't quite be sure Beethoven's ability to find each right note "inevitably" (as Lenny puts it) was greater than Mozart's but it's a meaningless issue anyway. It's so wonderful to have Bernstein's Omnibus lectures, the Harvard lectures and, of course, the Young People's Concerts on You Tube. He was an enormous and multifaceted talent.
I am your 1000 suscriptor. From Perú. Congratulations!! Thanks for the musical gift
It's interesting, the very music Bernstein is playing is orchestrated brilliantly. The flowing brook played by two muted cellos is a stroke of genius.
The 7th symphony Allegretto, in it's very sparse simplicity, while between the layers very subtle complex things are going on.
I'm not big on classical music or anything, but that particular piece is very special to me.
The way it opens, having the low strings marching alone, and from there gradually opening up, invoking certain feelings in the listener, that music has rarely accomplished.
He was not a melodist? Well I'd say he was a master of presentation.
How would you rank Beethoven's symphonies? I'd go with:
1. 9th
2. 3rd
3. 5th
4. 6th
5. 7th
6. 8th
7. 4th
8. 1st
9. 2nd
9th and 3rd are so universally acclaimed, that's it's not a surprise, 9th has more of the grandeur that I find more appealing. I had a harder time picking between 5th, 6th, and 7th. 5th has absolutely legendary outer movements, so I picked it 3rd, while the 6th is strong overall with a more gentle mood when, 7th maybe has the most rousing final movement after incredible movements 1 and 2. 8th is very cleverly composed, but lacks any proper slow movement, 4th has an amazing fast part of the 1st movement, but it doesn't strike that deeply emotionally. Symphonies 1st and 2nd aren't as good as the rest, they have more classical period characteristics. Early piano sonatas by Beethoven are already very strong musically, but he truly found his very own orchestral language in the 3rd symphony. 1st has more compelling subjects than the 2nd for me. , I know you like the 2nd more.
that roll in the melody of the second movement is pretty crucial, I think Bernstein would agree
I was brought here by someone criticising Beethoven and quoting this video in favour of Mozart as a greater composer. And I can see in the comments here that most people focused in the outrageous claims Bernstein made and missed the whole point: he's basically saying that no matter how many faults you find in Beethoven's way of composing, his music is THE most divine, perfect in it's own revolutoinary way, and above all other composers, EVEN Mozart. Perfect example of how people take things out of context for to support their own claims. Whether you agree with Bernstein or not, THIS is what he's saying.
I like what you said! I'm not a musician, just a devoted lover of music. It's hard for me to think Beethoven wasn't a great melodist, but I've never had any music theory training! With Mozart, I always find myself thinking "how could one guy write so much beautiful music??"; with Beethoven, I wonder "how could one guy write so much magnificent and emotionally powerful music?"
Boy if people are using this video as an example of why Beethoven is "bad" then they completely missed the point
Even his apology is a treasure - “wrong note”- . . .we were blessed.
I waited the whole video to see Lenny light up that cig, and they clipped it
This may be a rather innocuous point, but for those that don't make the connection, Maximilian Schell was the actor who played Tea Leoni's dad in Deep Impact.
If you really want to see Maximilian Schell at his best, watch "Judgment at Nuremburg", which is a really great film, and for which he won Best Actor Oscar. I shudder to imagine him in something like "Deep Impact", but eveyrbody has bills to pay.