There's a difference between actual criticism and just plainly crapping on something, knowing that it'll get a reaction. Which is usually more of the latter unfortunately.
I think Sonic fans get unfairly called out for being too defensive. Sonic as a franchise is routinely ridiculed. There's plenty of beloved IPs who has a lot of bad games, like Castlevania or Silent Hill. Yet most people don't consider these IP "clown franchises". I think it comes down to making fun of the fans and their weird antics. It's easy to feel like it's some kind of collective bullying, sometimes. None of that has any kind of real world impact of course.
@@Chillin-jg8vgDude THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting this comment. It really feels refreshing and relieving that there are others who actually understand why fans of this series get annoyed or defensive over the content.
@@MadWinter889absolutely I couldn't agree more with what you said. It's also just fans who turn the blind eye to a lot of the crapping the series' content gets. Like I don't want to be "that guy" but seriously it feels like the sunshine feeler is one of those people I just described It's like this guy simply doesn't get it and I'm like "isn't this guy a fan of the series?"
My nephew was 7 when he watched videos about "Mario is better than Sonic!" & going to school hearing kids say "Sonic is cringe." You know what he did? He kept liking Sonic & Mario. Because I told him "sometimes being the coolest is a burden, having to see that people are wrong or like different stuff. But it's ok, they're not bad people , any more than you are for not liking Muppets. You're a good example when you stay true to yourself, & you're way past cool for being nice to them, too." Couple years later, he still likes Sonic. Kids at school like stuff he doesn't, (Poppy Playtime/Rainbow Friends, etc) & he still plays with them if that's what they wanna play. They do the same with him, because if you're friends, anything can be fun if you compromise. He knows now that people genuinely hating on him for stuff he likes aren't worth his time when he has real friends to hang with, and was super proud to tell me that. Almost as proud as I was hearing it. If the other comment I left here ruffles feathers the wrong way, hopefully this one ruffles them nicer. If you like something as harmless as Sonic, you just gotta be the bigger person and accept that haters gonna hate, while unapologetically continuing to love what you do, and staying positive about it. If a 7 year old can manage that, I have complete faith you can, too.
Long comment warning! I can understand most of this problem with one sentence: "They are just games man... chill out" Gosh... I remember been so upset with stuff like "Sonic sucks" or "Sonic was never good" and when they talk bad about the fanbase, i felt like $#it and that i was a horrible person (Yeah... just for liking a videogame franchise) But then i started to think about it... and i told to myself: "Man, you don't have to pay for these people's actions" "Just play, enjoy and chill the f*ck out" "haters will always exist no matter what" Nowadays, if i see a video talking $#it about a character, game, show that i like a lot, i just push the button "Don't recommend" and that's it (i could watch it, just if i have a lot of free time or the topic is very interesting) I mean... i like a lot of overhated characters (Amy Rose) i enjoyed a lot kinda hated games (Sonic 3D Blast and Superstars) and you could told me 100 reasons why those things sucks... and... i'll just think... "Oh well... have a nice day" or i could tell a dumb joke. If you don't insult me for my likes, then i won't insult you for not liking it either! Sorry for the long comment, but i needed...
I can very much relate to the parts where you said that you felt upset with all the hate and mockery that Sonic would receive and how you felt like crap and a horrible person for liking a video game franchise but eventually learning to just calm down and continue to enjoy what you enjoy if it genuinely makes you happy so as long as you’re not being toxic nor hurting anyone as well as accepting the fact that there will always be detractors no matter what. That’s just part of life and reality. There’s nothing we can really do about it. I felt like that as well. Feeling upset, frustrated, depressed, and a horrible person for being attached to a video game franchise. But I also learned to just click off, ignore, and press “Don’t Recommend” on things that I don’t like, don’t agree with, things that negatively speak on something that I do care about, and things that I’m uncomfortable about.
I get where you're coming from and I agree with a lot of it, but its sometimes difficult to enjoy something you like when so many causally just trash on it or trash on you for enjoying it.
That's because all of them are extremely bad faith "OH SONIC HAD NEVER ANY GOOD GAMES, LITEARALLY LOOK AT SONIC 06!!!" "ALL OF SONIC'S FRIENDS ARE GAY BECUASE BIG THE CAT EXISTS!!!" "SONIC HAD NEVER ANY GOOD STORIES, HE LITERALLY KISSED A HUMAN WTF!!!!!!!!11" My favorite thing about these normies is that they either a) have only played 2-3 Sonic games max or b) have only played the bad games like shadow or 06, so they base their bad views on either nostalgia for da classigs or for the specific bad games, no inbetween.
The ‘Sonic is for Kids’ section and the ‘Message for the Fanbase’ were my favorite segments of the video. It got me to come out of my “bubble” (which is mainly just me keeping Sonic thoughts and opinions largely to myself) and view some of the series’ events in a different way especially the point on how Mario mostly targets families while Sonic mostly targets kids. The part with 06 vs. Colors was so cathartic too, like you have no idea 😮💨👍🏿. Great video!!
To be honest I feel like the "sonic is for kids" section is kinda stupid. Like I understand why but my mom watched all of the sonic 2 movie, while I didn't even finish it, and sonic frontiers brought alot of people into the franchise, those people where mostly kids but there where definitely adults. All I'm saying is I see sonic being made for families instead of kids but idk. I feel like older sonic fans underrated the franchise as must the the younger ones overrated it, like it's feels so stupid.
Thank you for addressing the whole “O6 wasn’t that bad/ Colors was actually bad” nonsense. I take it a lot of Sonic fans may not have been around to see the damage 06 caused or are just choosing to look the other way. Meanwhile, Colors was a much-needed palette cleanser that managed to bring back some positive attention to the series.
right? like where did this narrative come from? there is no way to look at 06 and genuinely believe it wasnt bad. yes its been long enough we can move on but that doesnt magically make 06 even mediocre, never mind good.
@@darthgamer9861 Its because the fans are exhausted of seeing the Whisp in the modern age and aren't excited to revisit that 75% of Colors is a 2D platformer. Not to mention it was the start of the "kiddie" era where it felt like a fairly annoying self aware cartoon instead of a "shonen-isk" anime vibe that the series was going with since Adventure 1. People revisited and enjoyed 06 because it felt like a fresh of breath air that fans wanted to see again, they were pretty much checked out with the 2010s era and wanted something similar to the 2000s era
I know its been said a lot, But I feel like the main reason a lot of fans get super defensive is because they think they themselves are being criticized
When the general public's opinion is that the fans are cringe, I don't know what else you could expect. I am a Sonic fan, so when people criticize Sonic fans that does in fact include me. It's not unreasonable to be at least annoyed at being compared to a literal motherfucker.
@@spiderzilla7o7 And we have a very specific word for those kinds of people. They're assholes, plain and simple and it's better to not pay them any mind.
@@Beastmd No, not really. You'd have to be deeply insecure and arguably insane to believe that someone poking fun, or not even liking Sonic, is a direct attack against you personally.
I like how your username is a Sonic R reference, very nice indeed The Sonic US fanbase is really strange... Here in Brazil we just talk about the games and sometimes the comics, and overall people see Sonic in a very positive light! Though I understand why fans are mostly defensive towards critiscim... I personally like to play Sonic games myself to see if I like them and form my own opinion (that's how Sonic Battle became one of my favourites lol) and I don't really get angry if someone doesn't have the same tastes. In the end we all just love the franchise and want it to thrive, so with that in mind I'm very excited for Shadow x Sonic Generations ^w^
I just really want to thank you for this video. Jebtube already made a video discussing this topic, called “Sonic Fantears Review.”, which is also a incredible video regarding the toxicity of the Sonic fanbase. Even during the late 2010s, when I was still in middle school, I’ve been starting to hide my interest in Sonic out of fear that I would be bullied or attacked because of the fanbase and the reputation at the time. But as time went on, videos like this slowly made me crack open that shell I’ve constantly retreated in. Again, I deeply appreciate it. Other Sonic fans that are civil, truly passionate and try to bring a positive attitude to the series are the ones that always gets attacked. Those are the true fans that deserve better than constant threats and dog piles.
I'm pretty sure sunshine feeler was making this video partially in response of people that uses the fantears video as gospel, sinse thise people call whoever is positive about thevseries "bootlickers" or "toxic positives"
The thing I hate most about newer Sonic fans is how everything is only ever dealt in extremes, there can't just be a game thats flawed with a few interesting ideas or could have been better its extremely underrated, and peak and awesome-sauce and peak and shonen. A game can't just not be for them or not as good as people said, its overrated, and mid, and a disgrace to the franchise and it has bad characterization. Alot of fans have this really narrow view the series, it can only be the thing they grew up with (and only ever despite the series never being constant from the start), it's mostly because of how defensive fans are they are has lead to this embrassing culture of how Sonic 2 or Colours are ''overrated actually'' and game like 06 is ''actually peak''.
How do you constantly make peak? Your points about the Sonic fandom is awesome. Personally, I just love the games and media surrounding it, I never participate in the fandom. Its very strange and hard to get into because a lot of the people in there are almost as strange as many of the jokes pertain to.
So i just started watching the video, and i wanna make a comment. I think that the whole "Sonic is weird" reputation is a USA thing, since where i live (Brazil) Sonic is still very highly regarded, whenever i see a kid, whether it be a little cousin or just a stranger's kid passing by with their parent, they're pratically always talking about Sonic, and though i don't see adults talking about it often, never once in my life have i brought up Sonic in a conversation with an adult, and they get weirded out, i think people here mostly know Sonic from either the cartoons/movies or the classic games, so kids love it and adults see it with nostalgia, most likely having also been Sonic obsessed kids at one point, i don't know what teens think of it though. I will probably make another comment once i finish the video, but that's just something that caught my attention.
This is interesting to hear! I love hearing stuff like this. I think gaming culture in Brazil in particular is very interesting because it's so different from most of the world.
Oh yeah, Sonic being considered weird is definetly more of a USA thing, since here in italy i see kids wearing Sonic merch somewhat often, clearly it isn't taboo to like Sonic here, or at least, not as much.
Fellow Brazillian here, I can confirm. Sonic is still highly regarded here, especially as one of gaming's gems from the 90's. My father and my uncles practically grew up playing Sonic. I also felt quite weirded out when I first heard about the franchise's reputation in America. Although after doing some research it's not hard to see why.
I am from Turkey and since our gaming culture didn't really exist until late 2000s we met with sonic from cartoons like SatAM and Sonic X, and recently with the success of the movies Sonic is pretty popular among kids. I saw lot of Sonic t-shirts. Sonic never really counted as a game franchise in Turkey since we met the series with cartoons and now its being popularized by the movies and Boom tv show. I think this is in case for other countries that gaming popularized late.
Nah, the real reason Sonic isn't popular with normies is because the series was infamous for putting out some of the worst games of all time during the 2000s, which, no matter how much time passes, people will not let go of. There's also the state of the Sonic fanbase during the 2000s, which was full of weirdos like Spax3 and Richard Kuta, not to mention all those DeviantArt OCs.
@@Nathan-rb3qp Richmunk is a known liar. He got caught recently in an ABDL subreddit trying to pick up chicks after saying that he would never do any of that stuff again
I think there has just been so much harassment towards sonic enjoyers, that the community just doesn't put up with anyone negative. Whether it's a pretentious snob who hates sonic fans, or a genuine critic, they get booted from the conversation. I don't think anyone should maliciously insert themselves into communities, just to rant about "bad" sonic games. But I think we all should be open to critique and praise these games. I personally would love a 3d sonic game that has everything we all love about 3d sonic, just so the community isn't so divided.
I'mma warn, this is a whole entire essay. Honestly, after deciding to be fair about it, and then just looking at it through not through a COMPLETELY biased fan, but rather, someone who has had time with Sonic, then other franchises, both good and bad... I think it's fair and valid to accept the idea that no matter what, Sonic is a franchise that had criticisms, and deserved it many a time. Acting like that criticism is just some smear tactic to something is just as disingenuous as the very notion of trying to say something was never good and the people who liked it are idiots for doing so from the start. If it's valid to like it in that space or even love it, it's absolutely valid to not like it and even outright hate it. I also think it's fair to just as much call out people on the idea that claiming that seeing criticisms, more often than not ones earned, and then saying that it was rough because they found merit something another didn't and fish sympathy because their experience wasn't everyone else's, is bad. I absolutely LOVE Shadow the Hedgehog in all of his dark, edgy, 2000s convoluted aspects. I also respect that some, like TheGeekCritique, revile what Shadow was and possibly even now, is with him getting a spotlight in Shadow Generations. I love a character people hate, and at this point, rather than fish for sympathy because I feel embarrassed for liking Shadow or disliking someone for their dislike of Shadow, I can now instead say this. "I for one loved Shadow, loved the stuff people didn't and can even call it good, but I also can acknowledge why people don't feel what I felt, and may even feel the exact opposite." Sonic deserves criticism, as will EVERY franchise that will do the dangerous task of trying to appeal to someone other than their makers. I will have my criticisms, and I will respect people have criticisms, too. We agree on that criticism or praise? Nice. We disagree? I respect your opinion.
The problem with Shadow is that he's played seriously when there's nothing cool about him. Making him a loser or pretending to be angsty but still being sweet deep down or being more Vegeta like would help his character out a lot.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Eh, alright. Hope you find what you want out of Shadow with what you hope for later on. Personally though, if they just made him a loser, I think ironically that'd sell me less on the character and I'd probably be more disconnected from Sonic as a whole by that point myself, since I'd feel that would be my personal radical change of the Sonic Series, but I also know I'm not that target demographic and if the kids want that Shadow, good for them, and good for you for getting the Shadow you wanted in the end. In the meantime, I'm gonna keep doing my own thing and just enjoying the Shadow we have now, because while I may not be the target demographic, I ADORE the Shadow we have, and hope that's the Shadow I can keep seeing, if only for a little bit longer while the franchise is still giving him screentime for a bit.
That’s a good way of describing it. I also like to view it as either chaos itself or a sort of personification of chaos. Just to fit with the concept of the Chaos Emeralds, their power, and in-universe lore. The franchise is a shapeshifting chaotic mess in terms of quality, consistency, and its whole infamous tendency for being experimental. The fanbase is also infamously known to be a whole bundle of chaos - confusion, conflict, drama, strife, insanity, eccentricity. It makes sense to perceive Sonic as a literal personification of chaos itself. I like viewing it that way. It’s fun since I love objects and characters that represent or embody chaos in some fashion. But I wonder how a reality or timeline where Sonic is not a franchise that is poorly managed by Sega would look like?
I was quite skeptical when I first heard about the franchise's reputation in the US. Here in Brazil, Sonic is seen in a generally positive light, like other commenters have stated.
im just glad that its not hell anymore to like sonic as it was in the 2010s, i will fully admit you probably have to be cursed from childhood to like it and adapt to the jank also, looking at p06, atleast the gameplay and level design of 06 could have been good, given more time in the oven. thank god we have the community to fix sega's bullshit
When you were talking about the original games not teaching you about rolling . You forgot that the instruction manuals of those games literally tell you about it and how to do it . Read the manuals people , thats how you properly play pre 2000's videogames by reading the damn booklet that gives information on the game you chose to play before turning on the console .
It's difficult for a lot of people to not feel like they're the ones being criticized when something they like gets crapped on. People most often befriend others who share their interests when they're young, so hearing opinions that are so different from what they've known growing up can be jarring. With this fanbase, though, you basically have to get over that if you want to have reasonable discussions. Sonic has experimented so much over the years with its gameplay and tone that it's incredibly difficult to find anyone who shares your exact opinions. Those who do often share opinions are the ones who agree with the common criticisms which they may have never formed themselves in the first place. Nobody wants to listen to each other, and that's the thing that has always bothered me most. I used to hate hearing opinions that weren't similar to mine, but nowadays, I enjoy seeing others takes on various Sonic games. It's interesting to hear them and it helps me understand the strengths and weaknesses of certain games. I personally love Frontiers, but I also get that it has flaws that I simply tolerated more than others. I also don't consider SA2 or Unleashed to be high tier Sonic games, but I also get that they have a lot of things going for them that I don't value as highly as others. I just want to know where people are coming from with their opinions. They won't change mine and I'm not trying to change theirs.
sonic is experimental, but the way sega responds to it doesnt help either they should try only what previously worked, until reaching a perfect formula, then try again to not get bland or stale if there was a perfect sonic game, atleast a majority would be able to agree in one thing
The thing is, what you consider "good faith" is so nebulous and vague it's a meaningless sentiment. To the vast majority of Sonic fans, anything that isn't slathering the blue bastard in adoration automatically translates to "bad faith criticism".
@@felixdaniels37 as a fan, bad faith criticism to me is so called "critique" that's either unfair (ex: judging an old game for limitations for at the time (adventure DX was a bad port btw)) or just pointless slander from people who've either never played the games or because it's the popular thing to do (whuch was common in the 2010s) or one that doesn't help the series and is just there to shit on it or just people being d*ckheads and say it's "criticism" ofc everyone has their opinions and preferences and that's ok but criticism's gotta be fair
@@felixdaniels37thank you. Sonic fans take everything as “bad faith” there is no point in having a reasonable discussion bc they will always find ways to call you bias instead of just accepting that u have a difference of opinion
That video is delusional. I was there, Sonic was getting clowned on by the mainstream before RUclips even took off. Sonic fans trying to psyop that he had a good reputation until content creators slandered him needs to stop. The reason those videos existed is because they were echoing the common consensus among people who were gaming at the time. They were a symptom of the way the world viewed Sonic, NOT the cause. Sega themselves conceded that the Sonic brand was in the dumps, which is why they stopped circulating retail copies of all the main Sonic entries of the time. What most likely happened is that people who were kids when those games came out are in their late teens or early 20s now and learning that their nostalgia was most peoples' dark ages. At most, at absolute MOST, you can mention Arin Hanson and that IGN "Sonic was never good" bit, because those are actual examples of people who just seemed to have it out for Sonic existing in any capacity. Everything else? That was the consensus. Still is outside of the hardcore Sonic fan bubble. I don't dislike Sonic or anything, just that he's in a much better place than he was before, even if there's still plenty of room for improvement.
@@dyrr836 THANK YOU! They'd rather create this entire narrative of conspiracy rather than just admit that 3D Sonic in the 2000s had some major issues. They genuinely believe that nobody criticized the Adventure games or Shadow the Hedgehog before Projared. A single look at the critic AND audience reviews made when these games released instantly debunk this type of rhetoric. We all know what's really going on here. Much of the fanbase is too young to remember the discourse and forums surrounding the 2000s games, but are old enough to remember the RUclips commentary, which is much more accessible than old forums. So now they've developed this belief that the criticisms began there. This is why I appreciate channels like The Geek Critique. He actually shows how it was like back then. He showed how much the fanbase was divided on Sonic Adventure 2 from the start. He showed how Shadow the Hedgehog was hated before the game even came out! I would be more sympathetic towards these people if they weren't doing the exact same thing they complain about. They constantly talk about how classic fans would berate them, be elitist, and tell them that their Sonic isn't the "real" Sonic. But now that they're the loudest part of the fanbase, they're doing just that! Berating fans of the newer content (Prime, movies, IDW, Superstars, etc.) while arguing that THEIR Sonic (2000s Shiro Maekawa) is the only REAL Sonic. The same guys who act like the victim will instantly lash out at anyone who likes Forces or thinks Superstars is better than Mania. Also, Sam Procrastinates' theory that *2010s RUclips* was the influence behind Lost World and Forces is beyond hilarious.
@@JadeJovian Yeah, I remember when Shadow first came out (the game, not the character) there were plenty of people on forums back then who legitimately thought it was the series jumping the shark. Before the game even released some believed it was a joke, or that Sega was getting desperate to "reinvent" the series by making it as tonally different as possible. Mind you this was very much a trend at the time; Space Raiders (the dark and edgy Space Invaders reboot) was only a few years old, and Bomberman Act Zero released only a year after Shadow. All of this before RUclips. Shadow himself was even a pretty contentious character back then too, some fans found him really out of place for what the series was up to that point. I'll admit to being one of them at the time, but my opinion of him is much higher 25+ years later. I think he's one of the better additions to the core cast. But making fun of his design and character was one of the most common jokes in the early 2000s, even if he did still have plenty of fans (although not nearly as much as he's gained since). I do believe there is precedent for RUclipsrs accidentally creating narratives because they have impressionable viewers, I just don't believe Sonic's reputation is a great example of one.
I've yet to see the whole video. So far you've made some good points, but I think you're wrong about what "general audiences" think. By "general audience", it seems like you're most likely talking about gamers. Which is still a very large demographic, but not enough to be the average person. Based on the people you spoke to, they sound like the edgy gamer type who'd say "Mario is for little babies" or something. I don't think the general population who plays little to no video games hates Sonic. Given the success of the movies, they probably think he's alright.
Sonic fans need a reality check. It drives me nuts how the modern Fandom has this collective amnesia about 06 and its cataclysmic impact on the series' reputation. It's been nearly 20 years, and people still make fun of it. It had cool ideas but people use that as an excuse to defend it. Sorry, Sonic 06 is not special because its development was troubled. We can't cut it slack because of the how messed up the development was. The Shadow game is THE reason why Shadow is still the poster boy for tryhard edgelords and why he's portrayed outside the fandom as a gun-wielding maniac. They treat Colors like its the devil that ruined the franchise even though it's the game that salvaged it (at least for a little bit). Colors isn't my favorite, I honestly prefer Generations and Unleashed, but I'd rather play Colors over Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow and 06 any day of the week.
Literally one of the most well worded, and well put together videos I have ever watched. As a long time fan of the series, this really made me rethink my views on a lot of the 3D games, and surprisingly how well thought out Sonic 1 and the roll are. This video really opened my eyes and made me really think of the greater perception of the Sonic Series and the fanbase. I've written a lot of different versions of this comment, but I want to keep this short. My views of this franchise have really shifted these last few years, and because of that, I've grown appreciation for the times the series really went above and beyond. While I have my guilty pleasures (I am one of the few who can actually get some enjoyment out of 06 even though it is a terrible game) I understand why people would be put off by the jank or not be able to get into the series and it's world like I have At the end of the day, it's a videogame series made for kids, and while it might not mean anything to a lot of people, It does mean a lot to me, and many others, we wouldn't have Sonic Mania if we didn't, but Sonic's golden days have long since passed, and so have the fandoms... I've spent nearly 30 Minutes writing this comment, and to me, that means something.
You know why some fans disliking the idea of sonic being callled kids only franchise? Well in my opinion(I guess) it reminds them when some saying animation are only for kids which when think would make a lot of sense,thing is animation can't be only enjoyed kids it could also enjoy by others because if it was exclusive for kids only then no one well enjoy it Unfortunate animation still gets disrespect and isn't viewed as an art(looking at you Netflix)
the thing is, there's a difference beetween stuff targeted to kids only and stuff targeted to all ages as he said in the video so animation that is specifically done to appeal to kids, might exist actually
i think part of the reason for sonic's reputation in the US, which sunshine didn't dwell on in his video, is the way cartoons and animation are viewed in the US. there's a stigma around cartoons in that they're only made for children, you can tell by the overabundance of animated children's shows but the general lack of animated shows with particularly dark subject matter. there are exceptions of course, but even big name studios like disney are moving away from 2D animation because they see it as being "for kids". it's no secret that sonic himself was partially inspired by old cartoons, he even has the rubber hose limbs. i think that to average americans, a "cartoon character" trying to be cool and edgy is just a stupid idea. combine that with all the problems inherent to the sonic series (which sunshine did cover in the video) and sonic turns out to be the perfect punching bag, sometimes for good reason.
@@azylan this kinda correlates with evolution of overall culture, because black shirts with cartoon characters trying to be gangsta and edgy used to be very popular in the 2000s, but nowadays it's more of a material for ironic jokes
@@azylan old cartoons wasn't always viewed as kids cartoon and kids wasn't qlways watching it,but back then restriction,mandate and even censorship wasn't there,nowadays however the network having more restrictions on what can and can't show on tv or even streaming service
Most of the criticism is mostly from people who don't and usually wouldn't really care about the franchise. Sadly, the cringe fandom that still exists lays stench over the pretty good games. Unfortunately for them they don't see how gnarly Sonic can be.
Some of us (me included) are fans of Sega's other franchises and we see how much money, time and effort gets put into their other titles and then we look at Sonic games and they're never really great graphically and are sort of clunky by nature (talking about Modern 3D Sonic, of course this doesn't apply to Mania and Classic Sonic titles with maybe the exception of Superstars) and we'd like to see them put more of those things into their mascot's series. In my case, it's especially disappointing to see the state of the modern day Sonic games because I'm a huge fan of Sega's old arcade and Dreamcast-era titles from the 90s and 2000s, and also a big fan of Yakuza. I love classic games like Daytona USA, Jet Set Radio Future, Crazy Taxi, Clockwork Knight, Seaman, House of the Dead, and all their super obscure arcade titles (that criminally never get home releases). It's hard to look at that side of Sega and then see the state of what's supposed to be their one big bread and butter franchise. Edit: My reply was THAT LONG? 😳
This video really got me to sit down with my thoughts regarding Sonic and contemplate about the fanbase and franchise’s history for an hour straight, no joke. Maybe this video served as a breaking point after barely being able to speak about my Sonic opinions in person lol, thanks. Staying outside of the Sonic internet bubble trap has helped me embrace different opinions and maintain my sanity, but I can’t help but feel like imma take my opinions to the grave.
Why do people get like this. Like “oh no someone likes or doesn’t like something that I do”. Maybe most of this drama could be avoided if people just chilled out and stopped taking this stuff so seriously.
@@spiderzilla7o7 Well we should first clarify, Sonic fans themselves are not hated. Being someone who just likes Sonic is totally fine to many. The problem is with the Sonic fanbase who thanks to having some of the most unsavory representation that continues to this day has garnered a reputation for being this perpetually angry and insufferable ball of cringe with people who will still rage at IGN for making a single bad review and insisting every negative review after the fact is them warring against the blue dude, consumers who'd shout down any criticism and engage in toxic positivity so extreme that in the most wild scenario of SEGA releasing a Sonic game that's so badly optimized the system basically fries itself, they'd still defend it and children who to be blunt are far too young to be on the internet and they're being exposed to content they really shouldn't be.
Long comment incoming: I feel like whats always missing in this conversations is conflating fanbases as one person and generations of ppl. Mind you this series is over 30 years old and at a certain point you get different eras of discussion. I remember when the Adventure era stuff got so much shit when I was a kid but after a couple of years you see a pendulum swing about how the Adventure games are one the best games or most fondly remembered Sonic games. This to an outsider who (understandably) cant view it as literal millions of ppl but as a guy with common associated tropes like referencing Chris Chan or something see the fanbase as confusing and it not knowing what they want. Pair it with Sega releasing games of different variety and/or quality you get what we have. What I see now is a reaction to the very negative and draining period of: the fanbase, outsiders, and 10 years of straight dryness and insecurity from Sega (except for Gens and Mania). Mind you this was much closer to the era of peak mockery of the fanbase. Now some critique is met with this air of uneasiness because of that time that they probably grew up around. This is why sayings like "Sonic had a rough transition into 3D" as example is a meme cause although sorta true(?) its a tired phrase and doesnt really mean much. Sonic 06 Reviews are even a meme because everyone and their mom knows about it. At a certain point everything that could be said has been said which is why you get folks saying a thing they liked about it like Shadows Storys being the only intresting part of that game storywise or something. Like think about, who wants to be around a person who always states why they hate something vs liking something in the sea of "why X is bad". I did watch that Chaomix video and part of that video had some personal experiences with growing up being a Sonic fan which kinda paints the whole picture to me. Im longwinded ik and do have other things to say but Ill end it here. I appreciate this video nonetheless^^
I dont think most fans (on Twitter) know how to think critically, theres always a bias towards everything. Seen people be dogpiled for liking 06, criticizing frontiers, criticizing knuckles, at this point we'll be dogpiled for liking anything that isn't from paramount or flynn
Keep in mind that the person who liked 06 never said it was good, nor tried to defend its flaws, they just explained why they did find it enjoyable, and sonic twitter kept whining
@@DaHeis especially with the whole "it looks like forces" thing. I'm pretty sure they just assume that everyone thinks it's bad so when they hear "it looks like forces" they think "it looks bad"
@@antidisestablishmentarianism3 At least i'm happy that is not being directed by Kishimoto's A team and they even brought back some of the og Gens devs for this expansion. Ironically enough this game that's supposed to be a small scale/tie-in* with Movie 3 looks more polished and more grander (is that a word?) than Frontiers.
In response to your statement of Xtreme being the 06 of the 90s, while I wouldn’t say it would’ve been 90s equivalent to 06, it would’ve made a drastic impact on the series on its own right, which would vary depending on what you view of the game’s production.
Finished this monster of a video. I agreed with pretty much agree with 98% of the video. I'd also think that people underestimate the power of sonoc's sprites in the mega drive games and how much personality it gave to the character, more so than the more "serious" sonic from 2001-2009. Although i don't mind the quippy 2010s interpretation and Frontiers is the dirst time I fell the characters had actually a personality that goes beyond their archetype. The only thing I disagree is the reputation of the franchise from the outside perspective: while it isn't the best rn, I don't think the series is seen in the gutter either. My favorire part of TGS this year wasn't the sonic x shadow trailer but the standing ovasion when the game was named drop: it gave me the impression that, whatever sonic team or sega are doing, it is gaining interest from the people. Or even when IGN apologized for the "sonic was never good" talk. I don't think we are toatally in the clean and the fanbase will always be a laughing stock, but I'm feeling a change in the series perception for the better. Good job on the video!
That Sonic Xtreme/06 defense comment made my jaw drop. Trying to prop up a game that was infamously rushed out the door as a cash grab for the Holidays as some kind of anti establishment arthouse project is a step beyond copium, it's genuine fucking insanity. Let alone to write off Mania, a game that exists only because of the fans' devotion and love for the series, as the direct opposite. People really just be saying whatever in RUclips comments man...
I just wish we could actually have discussions like this. Instead people outside the series just assume that all 3D Sonic games (and sometimes the 2D ones) are as bad as Sonic "Development Hell" O6. The amount of times terms like mediocre and jank are thrown around without anything qualifying them just makes you want to ignore the supposed criticism, since none of it is constructive. Pointing at a random indie game with fast movement and saying "This is what Sonic should be" doesn't address the problems people have with Sonic, it just shines a negative light on that indie game. SRB2 is an interesting point of comparison, but it makes me see why 3D Sonic is so linear, and why most 3D platformers go the sandbox collect-a-thon route. The amount of times SRB2 has to use rings to lead the player around makes me think they should have picked one of the two. 28:20 Interesting to see someone actually had that happen without actively stopping and hugging the walls. After the whole game grumps debacle I went back to my copy of DX and it took effort to make that happen. But just running through, even if I touched the walls... nothing. I always just held forward because that's what the kid said, just keep going in the direction you want to go.
I wish you would’ve acknowledged that probably the bigger reason people grew out of sonic at 14 is because the gameplay styles kept changing, not just cause they weren’t in the child demographic. The adventure fans (me) left cause of boost, the classic fans left cause they didn’t click with adventure. Not to mention the tonal shifts and the fact that almost every sonic game is a downgrade from sa2 as a package (variety, side content, multiplayer, secrets, mastery)
I'm so glad you decided to make this video. In the current era of Sonic fans throwing around words like "peak" and "mid", just to describe what they do and don't like with reckless abandon, this is exactly what people need to hear.
That intro was great! When I started watching this video, I thought to myself: "Really? Is this another one of those videos that talk about how "Sonic is in such a better place now!!!!!" even though he really isn't?" and then I was pleasantly surprised when you actually said that he isn't in a "much better place"
Now, before anyone puts words in my mouth, 06 is a bad game. With that being said, it is not one of the worst games of all time. It has its redeeming qualities such as level design, character writing (specifically the main trio), and incredible music. Sure, it has glitches and a lot of them at that, but is that really comparable to something like bubsy 3d or Superman 64 or Sonic boom? I'd say it's a solid C teir game (I personally like breaking 06 in two because glitches are fun. So it's a guilty pleasure) Also, great vid.
When I criticised Sonic X Shadow Generations I was immediately attacked. Not in a serious way in all honesty but it seems Sonic Fans don't like criticism or know how to handle it. I agree with everything said in this video l, it was really well thought through and engaging. My point of view is that I don't care whether it's classic/momentum adventure, boost, lighthearted, serious I just want it to be done properly. I of course have my favourite styles but I also can accept when I'm not the target demographic for a certain style. I grew up in the dark ages when Sonic was at its most serious so I'm biased towards that but I completely understand why people view it as melodramatic and over the top. Even with my bias I can still appreciate some jokes in Colours and understand why people would view it as a breath of fresh air. Sonic fans are just very insecure and paranoid because most of us grew up being ostracised for liking Sonic either in real life or online and now lash out at any and all criticism even if it's from people who normally like the franchise.
While I understand your points, I have a different perspective on a few things: Firstly, I disagree with the way Sonic Colours was written. The creators didn't know who Sonic was,it would have been better to look into him. While it's acceptable to portray Sonic in a light-hearted manner, the attempt to appear cool and funny felt forced. Some lines did manage to make me laugh, like the "no copyright law" line. Moving on to my second point, serious storytelling can be effective for Modern Sonic, as seen in works like Idw Sonic and Frontiers. Despite some flaws in these narratives, Frontiers integrates lore into an open-world setting and providing breaks in from story. Also development for Tails in the game shows characterisation for the charaters,I'm using him as an example: Tails projects emotions towards the Coco and admits feeling like a burden to Sonic due to his reliance on him during adventures. This method effectively conveys Tails' character arc to a broader audience, while also addressing past writing issues. Sonic's response, acknowledging Tails' contributions and supporting Tails choice to go on his own adventure showcases their familial bond in a heartwarming manner. Lastly, I know criticism towards Sonic games are a longstanding trend. Sonic 06, in particular, initiated a pattern where each Sonic game was scrutinized for its perceived flaws. Some critics, like the Game Grumps, often blamed the games when they played bad. While it's acceptable to critique Sonic content, but a significant portion of the criticism seemed driven by personal agendas or the desire for attention, even extending to disparaging the fanbase. While it's good to acknowledge that the Sonic fanbase has its faults, it's best to approach criticism constructively. Instances like an uncle discouraging his nephew from becoming a Sonic fan due to negative perceptions, illustrate why fans may become defensive when faced with unwarranted hostility. It would be better to address issues within the fanbase without resorting to blanket negativity. Though I also don't want toxic positivity either. This was a interesting Sonic fan video hope you read my ponits.
"Sonic 06, in particular, initiated a pattern where each Sonic game was scrutinized for its perceived flaws." But 06 and secret rings were legit terrible games. And 06 already had a terrible rep before the game grumps played it, because the game was (and still is) one of the worst AAA games ever released.
I mainly know Sonic The Hedgehog from the TV show Sonic X. That was practically my childhood introduction to the franchise and for the longest, I always associated the franchise with that show even though it wasn't canon to the Adventure games. The only hands-on experience I have with gaming is classic 2D games even though I'm Gen Z. I used to play a pirated version of SMB1 and played Sonic Advance 2 on my cousin's DS or GBA. 2D gaming is just my comfort zone since my parents didn't get me a lot of video games when I was younger. They cared more about my school work. But I eventually got my own DS and played New Super Mario Bros, Super Princess Peach and Pokémon Ranger. Everytime I played online flash games on my dad's computer, it was usually just Mario and Sonic flash games, which were using assets from either the classic 8 bit and 16 bit titles or the RPG games. In high school I began to play a bit more 3D stuff, like Naruto and Persona 5 with my sister. When I got Ninja Turtles: Mutants In Manhattan, it was my first full experience with playing a modern 3D game. I even still played 2D games like the Mega Man Legacy Collections. I haven't beaten all 10 mainline titles yet. I struggled a lot with Mega Man 8 and didn't even went near 7. Sonic Mania was fun and played it repeatedly. Finally when I got to playing Sonic Forces and Frontier's, I admit that by then, I've never experienced playing a 3D Sonic game before. Those two games were just trial and errors really. But I couldn't navigate the cyberspace levels probably since I was inexperienced with other Sonic titles. I really prefered it if like in the Boom dash games, Sonic would just remain in three lanes so that he is able to grab rings and make better decisions when incoming obstacles. Especially for those who want to grab the red star rings which I don't know what special features they unlock. But right now I'm still playing Frontiers and I'm having quite a fun time understanding the game despite being somewhat of a noob.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this new sort of Sonic era once its finished. While the reputation of Sonic isn't fully repaired, its rising. The fact that Snoop Dogg is flashing Sonic jewelry shows that people are warming up. Sonic Frontiers is a fresh unique take that is going to partially be expanded in Shadow Gens. Beyond that the next open zone game might turn out huge thanks to the apparent increase in budget. All they have to do is not fumble and do the Unleashed "You didn't like blank? FINE WE'LL SCRAP ALL OF IT AND MAKE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT." I like Unleashed but I think a better game would have been produced if they evaluated the issues with 06 and made the move to heavily improve those aspects and give them time to develop a playable game.
I've never felt that the criticism was undeserved for Sonic games. I've liked Sonic since I was six, & I never heard anyone get anyone get upset over Sonic's criticism until last year, really. I criticize the series all the time, & I understand that it's not for everyone, but I couldn't fathom getting upset over someone having a different opinion. Yes, the reviews from the late 2000s contributed to the fans' jumpy behavior, but the criticisms were coming all the way back from when Sonic Adventure released. People just need to accept that not every criticism made to the franchise & games is not an attack on their personal integrity.
Sonic rush is my favorite sonic game, I know it’s flawed but there is something about it… it’s not nostalgia because I finished the game this year but something just clicked. In a certain way that’s something unique about being a sonic fan, you can have fun with the worst sonic games of all time. I don’t need sonic to be the biggest franchise of all time and with what sonic team has been putting out I doubt he’ll ever get there, maybe if sega stopped treating him as their biggest franchise and just let sonic team cook maybe the games wold be better and he could finally be the mascot he once was.
If there’s one confession I want to make, it’s that I don’t like the Sonic Movies. Not even the 2nd film. I hated the 1st movie, and while I think the 2nd movie’s a little better, there were still issues I have with it. Whenever I explain why I don’t like it, the fans would just say “Ugh, it’s a different universe bro.” Or “Ugh, Knuckles & Tails were better in the movies then they were in the Meta Era” or something like that. And honestly though, I’d say the movies did Tails & Knux dirty compared to the other adaptations. Personally, there were things I said about the movies that were too harsh, even for me. And honestly, while I still don’t like the movies, I don’t think they’re one of the worst things imaginable, or something like that. I’m not a Sonic Fan because of the 1st movie. But now that I’m older… I just don’t care if there’s a new game or a new show coming out. I’ve moved on, and I’m happy the movies brought in new fans, because at the end of the day… Sonic’s more then a videogame icon… he’s a pop culture icon. And whenever there’s a new adaptation or game or comic, there’s always gonna be a new iteration of Sonic that anyone can love (And hate), that would stick out to them the most.
As a Sonic Fan myself, I can agree, I got into Sonic via Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Sonic 3 and Knuckles is my favorite Sonic game and had the AOSTH VHS tape of that had Slowwww Going and Over the Hill Hero, Sonic's Song and Best Hedgehog and Grounder the Genius and Blank headed eagle, I think criticism is needed for improvement. I always criticize games like Sonic Heroes, Sonic Battle, Shadow the Hedgehog, the Sonic Riders series Sonic 06, the Sonic Rivals series, Sonic Chronicles, the Sonic Storybook series Sonic Lost World and Sonic Forces, the Archie Comics (Issue 51 though Issue 247) and shows like Sonic X because Sega-ATLUS, TMS and Archie can do better, then I'll get hate saying that I'm ether a Classic Cuck, a Meta Era stans or a Mario/Nintendo Fanboy, I like Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, the Sonic Advance trilogy, the Sonic Rush series, Sonic Unleashed HD, Sonic Colors Wii and DS, Sonic Generations, Sonic Mania/Sonic Mania Plus and Sonic Frontiers, yes they have jank but I think they can be better (with Sonic Frontiers being a step forward in the right direction.) Just because I prefer AOSTH, Sonic OVA, the IDW Comics and Sonic Prime over shows and comics like the Archie comics Sonic X, Sonic Boom and Sonic Satam that don't make me a "Ture" Sonic Fan, there is no such thing as a True Sonic Fan, You're ether a Fan who likes the series and want's to support it by playing the games, buying the merch, checking out the IDW and watching Sonic Prime on Netflix and enjoyed the Sonic Movies or you're a fanboy that obsesses over the series and will defend the series and games like Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic 06 and Sonic Forces, shows like Sonic X and Sonic Satam and the Archie comics and characters like Cosmo and Sally Acorn because ~"you didn't like them and that you're a dumb kid or manchild who plays Mario games and you should d*e," this is why I left the Sonic Fanbase because of this. TBH I think the series is in a better place right now, but not where it was from 1991 though 2001 but better then where it was from 2003 though 2008 and 2013 though 2020 (2020 for the first Movie when they fixed up Sonic) but it can get there and I hope Sega-ATLUS can take criticism better and whatever they can take after Sonic Frontiers and Shadow Generations they can make it for Sonic Frontiers 2 and we could see another golden era for the series like in the Genesis/Mega Drive era, while Sonic Fanboys/Fangirls are bad, I think the Super Smash Bros. fanbase is far more worse gaming wise.
Honestly, sonic 06 is good in a goofy way, I mean yeah it's glitchy but remember some glitches make you able to speedrun the shit out of 06 not to mention some abilities make the game even more fun due to how broken it is.
@@Keeplele Does Rick and Morty still have a bad fanbase? I thought most of the Redditors who made up the Rick and Morty fanbase moved on to Smiling Friends
@@Something_Maybe Rick and Morty kind of does but they definitely left when the show continuously reemphasized that Rick was a shitty person you should never idolize.
As a sonic enjoyer I just moved on to the 2d games now it's why I adore freedom planet and mario has enjoyable games for me super mario 64 and sunshine any day
We just gotta wait for the Zoomers to age out because it's obvious they care more about arguing about Sonic than actually appreciating it and their love of the franchise is incredibly narrow for one era.
And yet in my opinion sonic fans will just continue to gush over game trailers and levels we have seen over a gazillion times like Mario or Nintendo fans. Then when it comes out they won’t be satisfied at all, or it will never be as good as they hoped. What the actual hell do they want? Do you want dark stories with good scripting, or good games? Make up your mind for god sake! They just never know what they want or it’s just concepts on top of concepts. It’s like a kid at school who has an idea but every other kid in the classroom has an idea over his and just talks over him. You get what I mean? This isn’t a good world.
Is it bad that I think that I'm delusional for believing that Dee Jay in SF6 has had more character development than Tails has in Frontiers? A side character who had little to no bearing on anything story related somehow has been treated MUCH better in modern times than a sidekick who's been around since Sonic was first created?
Something I think people should do and a few have, is to make the game they want to see in sonic games. We have 2 series right now Spark the electric jester and rollin rascal doing that. And when you show someone what they want and play them you get a better understanding of what they want and they get a game on steam to buy that is an alternative. We shockingly don't have many adventure inspired games or boost inspired games by other indie devs.
I don't really agree with this video, it really depends on how people interact with fans. Like fan games are hella hard to make and the fact that they are doing it for no pay is something else entirely.
The current state of sonic feels so confusing to me because they’re trying to appeal to everyone. Classic, modern, adventure, movies, comics, tv shows, etc and nobody is happy or can agree on it. I myself don’t like the current direction either since I grew up with colors and generations so it makes sense why I don’t like forces/frontiers and especially that new shadow generations campaign. Whatever SEGA does moving on, I’ll probably just stop caring and I already know there’s going to be one game that’ll make them restart the process all over again.
Nah, the only people that are not happy are the ones that spend allday in social media. I've met people online and irl that enjoys sonic's current output. It's a "puck your own poison" situation
6:18 Big was never annoying. I will never understand the hate or criticism he got. Especially that a lot of it was directed towards his gameplay, not his character.
@@TacoManX9Barely anyone played that dumpster fire from what I’ve seen. Funnily enough it was both my first RPG and my first DS game. If you start at rock bottom the only place to go is up.
The best thing SegaSammyJapan can do right now for its western audience is just loosen more of that creative freedom, for Sonic anyway. Reason being is so those who working on the projects can really deliver with the right management. They really have nothing much to lose on Sonic, aside from the rest of his dignity to be squashed after the movies. But truth be told…I don’t know if that would be enough? This is a different era now and as much I hate to be the crinkly old man, they have none to blame but themselves.
I definitely think a lot of people's love for Sonic relies heavily on nostalgia, mine too. You notice that throughout the years, the fanbase starts referring to whatever the series was like 20 years ago as the golden era. It's happening now with 2000s fans. I have gotten harassed for not putting Sonic Unleashed in my top 3 favorite video games of all time. If I check the profile of whoever left the comment, they're likely a 20 year old crying about how cool Sonic used to be when THEY were a kid and how it sucks now. It's just amazing how much these people lack any self awareness. A lot of Sonic fans also just don't seem to play any other games besides Sonic. Like I am begging these people to take a solid 2 years off the franchise and play other games then come back to it. I guarantee they'll stop looking at Sonic with rose tinted glasses. I love Sonic, but the franchise as a whole is mediocre.
This is why I don't get people so who try defend stuff like 06's jank and say "well it's not Boom and isn't that bad". Like no way you're putting over a broken game that killed any momentum Sonic had at that point.
I personally kinda appreciate what Sonic Team intended on the artistic side of the game and fan games such as Project 06 give us a much clearear vision of that idea but even then, i'm aware is no perfect game and is seen as the worst games of all time and the catalyzer of Sonic's current mixed reputation in the gaming sphere aswell.
Long comment incoming! The Sonic franchise shifting its identity so much has prevented it from being as beloved as other well-known franchises. Fans might say that each Sonic game offering different gameplay styles and stories is a strength of the franchise. As the saying goes, "there's a Sonic game for everyone"...but this simply isn't true. In fact, it's part of what pushes people further away from the franchise and one of the main reason the fanbase is broken beyond repair. When Sonic made the leap to 3D, Sega should've stuck with the Adventure style gameplay while making slight improvements, rather than throwing it away completely after failure of Sonic 06. Though to be fair, I don't entirely blame Sega for thinking they needed to start over from scratch with a new gameplay style because people were already starting to get fed up with the franchise after Sonic Heroes and Shadow's self-titled game, then Sonic 06 was the last straw and people went into "everything sucks" mode (though I don't blame fans for that either, of course). So after Sonic 06, the "boost mechanic" gameplay from Sonic Rush became the new gameplay style for the mainline titles. Now, I'm fine with the boost-style gameplay since Rush was my first Sonic game, but I recognize that the boost mechanic taking over as the new gameplay style caused a rift in the fanbase. The boost gameplay in Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure was more akin to the Classics, being 2D and all. Even when the boost mechanic made its way to the 3D games, they often included 2D sections in levels, which annoyed fans of 3D gameplay. The blend of 2D and 3D gameplay in levels was presumably an attempt to please both classic Sonic fans and modern Sonic fans, yet this only caused another rift in the fanbase. Then came Sonic Lost World, which had gameplay more like Mario in an attempt to please Mario fans, and was even descibed as "a Sonic game for Mario fans" by Sega. Naturally, Lost World ended up flopping, because why would Mario fans play a Sonic game that tries to be a Mario game...when they could just play an actual Mario game? Not to mention the fact that the Wii U itself was a flop. This is why I said they should've stuck with the Adventure-style gameplay and continuing improving it. By trying to please everybody, Sega pleases nobody in the end. They seem to be sticking to the boost mechanic in the most recent games and I hope it stays that way, even if that might alienate some fans. I just want Sega to stay consistent with Sonic and not switch up out of the blue anymore. But then again, they wouldn't have to deal with the risk of alienating certain fans and trying to please multiple crowds of people at once if they didn't constantly switch up gameplay styles in the first place. With Mario games, you always know what you're gonna get. The same can't be said for Sonic, which is what turns people away. On top of not knowing what gameplay you may get, you'll also be worrying about if the game will be a broken mess or not. Many of the games also have tone and writing problems. When it comes to the stories in Sonic games, I prefer something simpler rather than complex plots. It's clear that Sonic Team are not good at writing and can't do drama well. The few exceptions where they managed to make a decent story, like SA2 and Black Knight, don't make the rule. And Sonic being the only playable character isn't a bad thing. I know fans want a ton of playable characters, but Sonic's gameplay is what most people come for and it should be the most polished. I don't like how the American side of Sega felt the need to exaggerate Sonic's coolness and give him a more "tOtaLlY rAdiCal" attitude, either. Sega of Japan's version of Sonic didn't need alterations. He was cool, but in a subtle way that reminded me of a trickster like Bugs Bunny. Them giving Sonic a stereotypical "90's tude" in the cartoons and advertising unintentionally made the character dated, and it's now something that people outside the fandom mock. Whenever someone does a "Sonic voice" in a manner that's meant to make fun of the character, they always go for a stereotypical 90's "totally radical" tone, despite Sonic not even sounding like that anymore. This is why Mario characters are more appealing to people, while Sonic characters routinely get labeled as "annoying". Mario's simplicity makes him charming and timeless. On the other hand, Sonic characters can often be loud and exaggerated with their personalities and behaviors. I and many other fans may not mind this since we've gotten used to these characters or have grown up with them, but they can be grating to critics and people outside the fandom. Check out the millions of articles and videos detailing the "Top 10 Worst Sonic Characters". Sonic is probably the only franchise that has more "Worst of" videos than "Best of", because there's so little about the franchise for people to be positive about. Another thing is how Sega of Japan went too far in pandering to an American crowd. This can be seen in the Shadow 05' game. After getting messages from fans demanding that Shadow wield a gun, Sega listened and decided to go all out, giving Shadow his own game. Sega added many things that they assumed would please Americans: guns, swearing, an alien invasion, the White House, etc. This backfired because it was so ridiculous and over the top that even Americans couldn't stomach it. Of course, their first mistake was listening to fans, which is what no big-name company should ever do. As with any fandom, there's constant differing of opinions, so trying to listen to fans sounds absolutely crazy and would be a nightmare. They should simply be ignored. Anyway, those are the reasons I believe Sonic has failed to become as loved as other franchises. Sonic may be popular, but the franchise is loved and hated in equal measures.
The main reason why some fans nowadays are willing to cut 06 some slack, is because of the fan remake P-06, which basically fixes the glitches and makes the game more like how it was supposed to be
This was a great video. Definitely has some food for thought in it worth thinking about. There's a video on a youtube channel called moon channel that talked about Segas strategy towards Sonic in the 2000's. Describing the character and the franchise as a "savior of the children" I'm sure not everybody who worked on a sonic game agreed with this mindset but you can see this philosophy clear as day with just how poorly the franchise was mistreated. I mean....there's no way turning sonic into a werehog was an executuve order. But did the executives give a dhit? Absolutely not, because they already knew who the game was for, their target was set. Amd I personally believe these crazy combination of weird ideas and that "savior of the children" philosophy is whats running the discussion around Sonic games today. People can't bare to see their precious thing be beat down or criticized because "well I liked it so...." And then they proceed to throw the baby out with the bathwater with things they don't like because its not targeted at them anymore, without really sitting down and asking themselves and other fans the right questioms. Sonic Colors isn't flawed because of its toned down nature, colorful environments or even the wisps, its flawed because of its simplicity...and thats just my opinion. A lot of people who engage in these discussions in a not civil way say they just want the franchise to be better, or have other people use that to defend them on their behalf but I believe its people wanting something they had when they were younger and not having it. A sort of toxic nostalgia. I cannot tell you the amount of times I've seen youtubers praise the dark age of sonic, going on and on about how cool and serious the series was and how colors and lost world is a sin! And as someone who was unaware of sonic's existence at the time, looking back retroactively as an adult...THIS is your Sonic?? I'm not even saying its all bad, its just funny to me how nostalgia blind some people are. And how quick to defense they can get. And ultimately it us Segas fault but still... Edit: and I didn't even mention how Sonic fans (certain fans) react to when other people go after something they like. I mostly just talked about the madness that happens within the asylum--i mean community. IGN made a whole ass video basically as an adendum and apolpgy for that sonic was never good quote which i can appreciate I guess, but we shouldn't let certain critiques of gaming journalist#328 define your enjoyment of something, nor should you let THEIR enjoyment of something get you steaming like a vegetable...only smarter
You mean "sonic fans".... looking at specific "sonic fans" comments that I see in RUclips comments. Yes, I encountered some of them. Anyways, I think that some sonic fans act like that, tbh
This is what I've been saying, bro. I acknowledge that Sonic is weird. Even the Genesis games were unlike any other 2D platformers at the time. I like every Sonic game, even the ones with heinous motion controls. But if people don't like them, that's fine.
about to watch this, hoping and praying this isnt like most youtube videos where it misses out on the fact people who are positive about a game are shunned too
One other game franchise that I'd compare to Sonic is Crash Bandicoot,not just because they have similar themes and not just because I would kill for a crossover game between them. Both Sonic and Crash were made to rival Mario on a console geared to more mature audiences compared to Nintendo's "kiddy crap". However,after their golden ages,the games have started to gear seemed to gear to children a lot more.Sonic was leaning into being what kids thought was cool at the time like swearing,guns,and weirdly dark stories,while Crash was leaning more into that random kind of humor that was popular in the early 2000s.(Crash Tag Team Racing lets you make burp and fart sounds during the loading screens for crying out loud.). I probably speaking nonsense,but I think that didn't affect Crash that much unlike Sonic because after Mind Over Mutant,the series had a long drought until his return in Skylanders and the N Sane Trilogy,we then got Crash 4 which takes place in a continuity where those other Crash games never happened and is after the story of Crash 3.Sonic has became synonymous with doing things that seemed like they're trying too hard to be cool(which I'm a sucker for.),while Crash wasn't really held back by that despite having some of that humor in the games after the drought(which I'm also a sucker for.)Maybe it's because unlike Sonic,Crash wasn't really a cool character,he can be cool but he's mainly meant to be like a goofy Looney Tunes character which I think appealed more to General Audiences than Sonic's cool attitude,why do you think characters like Bubsy and Gex died and then came back due to memes and not because they were great games. Crash still had that fluster from those first 3 PS1 games during his drought while Sonic was still going and had the burden of the many mistakes made since Shadow The Hedgehog. BUT HEY THAT'S JUST A THEORY,A GAME THEORY! THANKS FOR WATCHING! Edit:🍌
Man, this video is a breath of fresh air. Thank you!
Thanks, dude! I love your videos! I always love hearing different perspectives and nuanced critiques and you always deliver on that front!
Woah!
The Goat of sonic retrospectives on RUclips🙏🏿
1:20 Adult Swim making fun of Sonic is ironic.
Because they got Rick N' Morty fans besides on them.
If Sonic was real, he would make fun of his fanbase
Good, it would be really funny to see him roast some of his fans. I wonder what it would be like though.
"I'm so sorry that you guys don't have anything else to do in life than worshipping me."
I mean, that's more or less what happened in Boom.
He would be embarrassed.
He does on twitter
There's a difference between actual criticism and just plainly crapping on something, knowing that it'll get a reaction. Which is usually more of the latter unfortunately.
Yeah, there's a reason why "Sonic was never good" got shit on.
True that's why Sonic fans are so defensive of Sonic since all people do is talk shit about the games.
I think Sonic fans get unfairly called out for being too defensive. Sonic as a franchise is routinely ridiculed. There's plenty of beloved IPs who has a lot of bad games, like Castlevania or Silent Hill. Yet most people don't consider these IP "clown franchises". I think it comes down to making fun of the fans and their weird antics. It's easy to feel like it's some kind of collective bullying, sometimes. None of that has any kind of real world impact of course.
@@Chillin-jg8vgDude THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting this comment. It really feels refreshing and relieving that there are others who actually understand why fans of this series get annoyed or defensive over the content.
@@MadWinter889absolutely I couldn't agree more with what you said. It's also just fans who turn the blind eye to a lot of the crapping the series' content gets. Like I don't want to be "that guy" but seriously it feels like the sunshine feeler is one of those people I just described It's like this guy simply doesn't get it and I'm like "isn't this guy a fan of the series?"
My nephew was 7 when he watched videos about "Mario is better than Sonic!" & going to school hearing kids say "Sonic is cringe." You know what he did?
He kept liking Sonic & Mario. Because I told him "sometimes being the coolest is a burden, having to see that people are wrong or like different stuff. But it's ok, they're not bad people , any more than you are for not liking Muppets. You're a good example when you stay true to yourself, & you're way past cool for being nice to them, too."
Couple years later, he still likes Sonic. Kids at school like stuff he doesn't, (Poppy Playtime/Rainbow Friends, etc) & he still plays with them if that's what they wanna play. They do the same with him, because if you're friends, anything can be fun if you compromise. He knows now that people genuinely hating on him for stuff he likes aren't worth his time when he has real friends to hang with, and was super proud to tell me that. Almost as proud as I was hearing it.
If the other comment I left here ruffles feathers the wrong way, hopefully this one ruffles them nicer. If you like something as harmless as Sonic, you just gotta be the bigger person and accept that haters gonna hate, while unapologetically continuing to love what you do, and staying positive about it.
If a 7 year old can manage that, I have complete faith you can, too.
Long comment warning!
I can understand most of this problem with one sentence:
"They are just games man... chill out"
Gosh... I remember been so upset with stuff like "Sonic sucks" or "Sonic was never good" and when they talk bad about the fanbase, i felt like $#it and that i was a horrible person (Yeah... just for liking a videogame franchise)
But then i started to think about it... and i told to myself:
"Man, you don't have to pay for these people's actions" "Just play, enjoy and chill the f*ck out" "haters will always exist no matter what"
Nowadays, if i see a video talking $#it about a character, game, show that i like a lot, i just push the button "Don't recommend" and that's it (i could watch it, just if i have a lot of free time or the topic is very interesting)
I mean... i like a lot of overhated characters (Amy Rose) i enjoyed a lot kinda hated games (Sonic 3D Blast and Superstars) and you could told me 100 reasons why those things sucks... and... i'll just think... "Oh well... have a nice day" or i could tell a dumb joke.
If you don't insult me for my likes, then i won't insult you for not liking it either!
Sorry for the long comment, but i needed...
This wasn't long comment but very insightful. Good one.
Dude has a Tom and Jerry: The Movie profile pic why does the poster have Droopy he is like in the movie for like 10 seconds.
I can very much relate to the parts where you said that you felt upset with all the hate and mockery that Sonic would receive and how you felt like crap and a horrible person for liking a video game franchise but eventually learning to just calm down and continue to enjoy what you enjoy if it genuinely makes you happy so as long as you’re not being toxic nor hurting anyone as well as accepting the fact that there will always be detractors no matter what. That’s just part of life and reality. There’s nothing we can really do about it.
I felt like that as well. Feeling upset, frustrated, depressed, and a horrible person for being attached to a video game franchise. But I also learned to just click off, ignore, and press “Don’t Recommend” on things that I don’t like, don’t agree with, things that negatively speak on something that I do care about, and things that I’m uncomfortable about.
I get where you're coming from and I agree with a lot of it, but its sometimes difficult to enjoy something you like when so many causally just trash on it or trash on you for enjoying it.
@@shriderrad4123 Really good point. I believe that’s what I was always feeling but I didn’t know how to put it into words well.
It’s funny cause I criticize the fuck outta Sonic but when I see a casual criticize/make fun of it, a small part of me gets angry.
Understandable 👍
Same
Sounds like me
That's because all of them are extremely bad faith "OH SONIC HAD NEVER ANY GOOD GAMES, LITEARALLY LOOK AT SONIC 06!!!" "ALL OF SONIC'S FRIENDS ARE GAY BECUASE BIG THE CAT EXISTS!!!" "SONIC HAD NEVER ANY GOOD STORIES, HE LITERALLY KISSED A HUMAN WTF!!!!!!!!11"
My favorite thing about these normies is that they either a) have only played 2-3 Sonic games max or b) have only played the bad games like shadow or 06, so they base their bad views on either nostalgia for da classigs or for the specific bad games, no inbetween.
@@Neoniq41 my thoughts exactly, it's not the criticism itself
The ‘Sonic is for Kids’ section and the ‘Message for the Fanbase’ were my favorite segments of the video. It got me to come out of my “bubble” (which is mainly just me keeping Sonic thoughts and opinions largely to myself) and view some of the series’ events in a different way especially the point on how Mario mostly targets families while Sonic mostly targets kids. The part with 06 vs. Colors was so cathartic too, like you have no idea 😮💨👍🏿. Great video!!
To be honest I feel like the "sonic is for kids" section is kinda stupid. Like I understand why but my mom watched all of the sonic 2 movie, while I didn't even finish it, and sonic frontiers brought alot of people into the franchise, those people where mostly kids but there where definitely adults. All I'm saying is I see sonic being made for families instead of kids but idk. I feel like older sonic fans underrated the franchise as must the the younger ones overrated it, like it's feels so stupid.
@@Mike-di3moJust because something is targeted towards kids, doesn’t mean older audiences can’t enjoy them.
@@Skibster-w9l yes that's true, thats why it's made for everyone not just kids
@@Mike-di3mo you didn't understand what was. Said in ghd video
@@lupinthenerd439 english
I had to deal with a lot of criticism when I was 4 but I grew out of it.
Adult Swim making fun of Sonic is hypocritical, they got some serious toxicity alone with Rick & Morty.
When did this happen exactly?
@@A_furry69 have you seen the Rick and Morty fans?
Thank you for addressing the whole “O6 wasn’t that bad/ Colors was actually bad” nonsense. I take it a lot of Sonic fans may not have been around to see the damage 06 caused or are just choosing to look the other way. Meanwhile, Colors was a much-needed palette cleanser that managed to bring back some positive attention to the series.
right? like where did this narrative come from? there is no way to look at 06 and genuinely believe it wasnt bad. yes its been long enough we can move on but that doesnt magically make 06 even mediocre, never mind good.
@@darthgamer9861 Its because the fans are exhausted of seeing the Whisp in the modern age and aren't excited to revisit that 75% of Colors is a 2D platformer. Not to mention it was the start of the "kiddie" era where it felt like a fairly annoying self aware cartoon instead of a "shonen-isk" anime vibe that the series was going with since Adventure 1. People revisited and enjoyed 06 because it felt like a fresh of breath air that fans wanted to see again, they were pretty much checked out with the 2010s era and wanted something similar to the 2000s era
I know its been said a lot, But I feel like the main reason a lot of fans get super defensive is because they think they themselves are being criticized
A lot of times they are tho
Well that’s somewhat true. People are disgusted by you enjoying sonic if they themselves don’t like it
When the general public's opinion is that the fans are cringe, I don't know what else you could expect.
I am a Sonic fan, so when people criticize Sonic fans that does in fact include me. It's not unreasonable to be at least annoyed at being compared to a literal motherfucker.
@@spiderzilla7o7 And we have a very specific word for those kinds of people. They're assholes, plain and simple and it's better to not pay them any mind.
@@Beastmd
No, not really. You'd have to be deeply insecure and arguably insane to believe that someone poking fun, or not even liking Sonic, is a direct attack against you personally.
I like how your username is a Sonic R reference, very nice indeed
The Sonic US fanbase is really strange... Here in Brazil we just talk about the games and sometimes the comics, and overall people see Sonic in a very positive light! Though I understand why fans are mostly defensive towards critiscim... I personally like to play Sonic games myself to see if I like them and form my own opinion (that's how Sonic Battle became one of my favourites lol) and I don't really get angry if someone doesn't have the same tastes. In the end we all just love the franchise and want it to thrive, so with that in mind I'm very excited for Shadow x Sonic Generations ^w^
I did not notice the username, that is such a cool reference
Kind of insane i'm seeing so many Brazilians on a video like this...
apesar disso, Oláaa
I just really want to thank you for this video. Jebtube already made a video discussing this topic, called “Sonic Fantears Review.”, which is also a incredible video regarding the toxicity of the Sonic fanbase. Even during the late 2010s, when I was still in middle school, I’ve been starting to hide my interest in Sonic out of fear that I would be bullied or attacked because of the fanbase and the reputation at the time. But as time went on, videos like this slowly made me crack open that shell I’ve constantly retreated in. Again, I deeply appreciate it. Other Sonic fans that are civil, truly passionate and try to bring a positive attitude to the series are the ones that always gets attacked. Those are the true fans that deserve better than constant threats and dog piles.
I'm pretty sure sunshine feeler was making this video partially in response of people that uses the fantears video as gospel, sinse thise people call whoever is positive about thevseries "bootlickers" or "toxic positives"
The thing I hate most about newer Sonic fans is how everything is only ever dealt in extremes, there can't just be a game thats flawed with a few interesting ideas or could have been better its extremely underrated, and peak and awesome-sauce and peak and shonen. A game can't just not be for them or not as good as people said, its overrated, and mid, and a disgrace to the franchise and it has bad characterization. Alot of fans have this really narrow view the series, it can only be the thing they grew up with (and only ever despite the series never being constant from the start), it's mostly because of how defensive fans are they are has lead to this embrassing culture of how Sonic 2 or Colours are ''overrated actually'' and game like 06 is ''actually peak''.
sonic 2 and colors wii are definitely overrated but 06 is not any great either
@@ssg-eggunner That's your opinion, they are fairly rated.
@@ssg-eggunner Sonic 2 and 3 are some of the best games ever made
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 nah just sonic 3 & unleashed are the best
sonic 2 is boring ahh hell
@@ssg-eggunner Dumbass you did what I criticized people for
How do you constantly make peak? Your points about the Sonic fandom is awesome. Personally, I just love the games and media surrounding it, I never participate in the fandom. Its very strange and hard to get into because a lot of the people in there are almost as strange as many of the jokes pertain to.
So i just started watching the video, and i wanna make a comment.
I think that the whole "Sonic is weird" reputation is a USA thing, since where i live (Brazil) Sonic is still very highly regarded, whenever i see a kid, whether it be a little cousin or just a stranger's kid passing by with their parent, they're pratically always talking about Sonic, and though i don't see adults talking about it often, never once in my life have i brought up Sonic in a conversation with an adult, and they get weirded out, i think people here mostly know Sonic from either the cartoons/movies or the classic games, so kids love it and adults see it with nostalgia, most likely having also been Sonic obsessed kids at one point, i don't know what teens think of it though. I will probably make another comment once i finish the video, but that's just something that caught my attention.
This is interesting to hear! I love hearing stuff like this. I think gaming culture in Brazil in particular is very interesting because it's so different from most of the world.
Oh yeah, Sonic being considered weird is definetly more of a USA thing, since here in italy i see kids wearing Sonic merch somewhat often, clearly it isn't taboo to like Sonic here, or at least, not as much.
Fellow Brazillian here, I can confirm. Sonic is still highly regarded here, especially as one of gaming's gems from the 90's. My father and my uncles practically grew up playing Sonic.
I also felt quite weirded out when I first heard about the franchise's reputation in America. Although after doing some research it's not hard to see why.
I am from Turkey and since our gaming culture didn't really exist until late 2000s we met with sonic from cartoons like SatAM and Sonic X, and recently with the success of the movies Sonic is pretty popular among kids. I saw lot of Sonic t-shirts. Sonic never really counted as a game franchise in Turkey since we met the series with cartoons and now its being popularized by the movies and Boom tv show. I think this is in case for other countries that gaming popularized late.
Nah, the real reason Sonic isn't popular with normies is because the series was infamous for putting out some of the worst games of all time during the 2000s, which, no matter how much time passes, people will not let go of.
There's also the state of the Sonic fanbase during the 2000s, which was full of weirdos like Spax3 and Richard Kuta, not to mention all those DeviantArt OCs.
At least Richard stated that he regrets everything he did throughout his years as a Sonic fan.
Fr
@@Nathan-rb3qp Richmunk is a known liar. He got caught recently in an ABDL subreddit trying to pick up chicks after saying that he would never do any of that stuff again
@@Darkghostwind Jesus Christ.
@@Darkghostwindhuh? Is there any other info? This is the 1st time I heard about these people
I think there has just been so much harassment towards sonic enjoyers, that the community just doesn't put up with anyone negative. Whether it's a pretentious snob who hates sonic fans, or a genuine critic, they get booted from the conversation. I don't think anyone should maliciously insert themselves into communities, just to rant about "bad" sonic games. But I think we all should be open to critique and praise these games. I personally would love a 3d sonic game that has everything we all love about 3d sonic, just so the community isn't so divided.
I'mma warn, this is a whole entire essay.
Honestly, after deciding to be fair about it, and then just looking at it through not through a COMPLETELY biased fan, but rather, someone who has had time with Sonic, then other franchises, both good and bad...
I think it's fair and valid to accept the idea that no matter what, Sonic is a franchise that had criticisms, and deserved it many a time. Acting like that criticism is just some smear tactic to something is just as disingenuous as the very notion of trying to say something was never good and the people who liked it are idiots for doing so from the start. If it's valid to like it in that space or even love it, it's absolutely valid to not like it and even outright hate it.
I also think it's fair to just as much call out people on the idea that claiming that seeing criticisms, more often than not ones earned, and then saying that it was rough because they found merit something another didn't and fish sympathy because their experience wasn't everyone else's, is bad.
I absolutely LOVE Shadow the Hedgehog in all of his dark, edgy, 2000s convoluted aspects. I also respect that some, like TheGeekCritique, revile what Shadow was and possibly even now, is with him getting a spotlight in Shadow Generations. I love a character people hate, and at this point, rather than fish for sympathy because I feel embarrassed for liking Shadow or disliking someone for their dislike of Shadow, I can now instead say this.
"I for one loved Shadow, loved the stuff people didn't and can even call it good, but I also can acknowledge why people don't feel what I felt, and may even feel the exact opposite."
Sonic deserves criticism, as will EVERY franchise that will do the dangerous task of trying to appeal to someone other than their makers. I will have my criticisms, and I will respect people have criticisms, too. We agree on that criticism or praise? Nice. We disagree? I respect your opinion.
👏👏👏 I rate this essay 10/10
The problem with Shadow is that he's played seriously when there's nothing cool about him. Making him a loser or pretending to be angsty but still being sweet deep down or being more Vegeta like would help his character out a lot.
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Eh, alright. Hope you find what you want out of Shadow with what you hope for later on.
Personally though, if they just made him a loser, I think ironically that'd sell me less on the character and I'd probably be more disconnected from Sonic as a whole by that point myself, since I'd feel that would be my personal radical change of the Sonic Series, but I also know I'm not that target demographic and if the kids want that Shadow, good for them, and good for you for getting the Shadow you wanted in the end.
In the meantime, I'm gonna keep doing my own thing and just enjoying the Shadow we have now, because while I may not be the target demographic, I ADORE the Shadow we have, and hope that's the Shadow I can keep seeing, if only for a little bit longer while the franchise is still giving him screentime for a bit.
Comments like that are why RUclips used to have a Video Reply feature.
Sonic is cool and I like him. Nuff said.
Real
"Every hedgehog has its mondays"
- Sonic Hedgehog
The way I view things is that Sonic is not a bad franchise but poorly managed one
Real
That’s a good way of describing it. I also like to view it as either chaos itself or a sort of personification of chaos. Just to fit with the concept of the Chaos Emeralds, their power, and in-universe lore. The franchise is a shapeshifting chaotic mess in terms of quality, consistency, and its whole infamous tendency for being experimental. The fanbase is also infamously known to be a whole bundle of chaos - confusion, conflict, drama, strife, insanity, eccentricity. It makes sense to perceive Sonic as a literal personification of chaos itself. I like viewing it that way. It’s fun since I love objects and characters that represent or embody chaos in some fashion. But I wonder how a reality or timeline where Sonic is not a franchise that is poorly managed by Sega would look like?
I was quite skeptical when I first heard about the franchise's reputation in the US. Here in Brazil, Sonic is seen in a generally positive light, like other commenters have stated.
They started having more merchandise over there like plushies and such, right? Is it the same with Mario over there?
@@demetriusnp49 Yeah, especially after the movies.
Based brazil
im just glad that its not hell anymore to like sonic as it was in the 2010s, i will fully admit you probably have to be cursed from childhood to like it and adapt to the jank
also, looking at p06, atleast the gameplay and level design of 06 could have been good, given more time in the oven. thank god we have the community to fix sega's bullshit
When you were talking about the original games not teaching you about rolling .
You forgot that the instruction manuals of those games literally tell you about it and how to do it .
Read the manuals people , thats how you properly play pre 2000's videogames by reading the damn booklet that gives information on the game you chose to play before turning on the console .
It's difficult for a lot of people to not feel like they're the ones being criticized when something they like gets crapped on. People most often befriend others who share their interests when they're young, so hearing opinions that are so different from what they've known growing up can be jarring. With this fanbase, though, you basically have to get over that if you want to have reasonable discussions. Sonic has experimented so much over the years with its gameplay and tone that it's incredibly difficult to find anyone who shares your exact opinions. Those who do often share opinions are the ones who agree with the common criticisms which they may have never formed themselves in the first place.
Nobody wants to listen to each other, and that's the thing that has always bothered me most. I used to hate hearing opinions that weren't similar to mine, but nowadays, I enjoy seeing others takes on various Sonic games. It's interesting to hear them and it helps me understand the strengths and weaknesses of certain games. I personally love Frontiers, but I also get that it has flaws that I simply tolerated more than others. I also don't consider SA2 or Unleashed to be high tier Sonic games, but I also get that they have a lot of things going for them that I don't value as highly as others. I just want to know where people are coming from with their opinions. They won't change mine and I'm not trying to change theirs.
sonic is experimental, but the way sega responds to it doesnt help either
they should try only what previously worked, until reaching a perfect formula, then try again to not get bland or stale
if there was a perfect sonic game, atleast a majority would be able to agree in one thing
the issue is people rarely if ever actually criticize sonic in good faith unless they're already fans of the games.
Fr
Yeah. Ign being the prime example
The thing is, what you consider "good faith" is so nebulous and vague it's a meaningless sentiment. To the vast majority of Sonic fans, anything that isn't slathering the blue bastard in adoration automatically translates to "bad faith criticism".
@@felixdaniels37 as a fan, bad faith criticism to me is so called "critique" that's either unfair (ex: judging an old game for limitations for at the time (adventure DX was a bad port btw)) or just pointless slander from people who've either never played the games or because it's the popular thing to do (whuch was common in the 2010s) or one that doesn't help the series and is just there to shit on it or just people being d*ckheads and say it's "criticism" ofc everyone has their opinions and preferences and that's ok but criticism's gotta be fair
@@felixdaniels37thank you. Sonic fans take everything as “bad faith” there is no point in having a reasonable discussion bc they will always find ways to call you bias instead of just accepting that u have a difference of opinion
This is a response to that Chaomix video, isn’t it?
By the way, I love your passion for game design and the way it comes through here.
Is it cause I didn't watch it but from what I've seen I am not going to like it.
That video is delusional. I was there, Sonic was getting clowned on by the mainstream before RUclips even took off. Sonic fans trying to psyop that he had a good reputation until content creators slandered him needs to stop. The reason those videos existed is because they were echoing the common consensus among people who were gaming at the time. They were a symptom of the way the world viewed Sonic, NOT the cause. Sega themselves conceded that the Sonic brand was in the dumps, which is why they stopped circulating retail copies of all the main Sonic entries of the time. What most likely happened is that people who were kids when those games came out are in their late teens or early 20s now and learning that their nostalgia was most peoples' dark ages. At most, at absolute MOST, you can mention Arin Hanson and that IGN "Sonic was never good" bit, because those are actual examples of people who just seemed to have it out for Sonic existing in any capacity. Everything else? That was the consensus. Still is outside of the hardcore Sonic fan bubble.
I don't dislike Sonic or anything, just that he's in a much better place than he was before, even if there's still plenty of room for improvement.
@@dyrr836
THANK YOU!
They'd rather create this entire narrative of conspiracy rather than just admit that 3D Sonic in the 2000s had some major issues. They genuinely believe that nobody criticized the Adventure games or Shadow the Hedgehog before Projared. A single look at the critic AND audience reviews made when these games released instantly debunk this type of rhetoric.
We all know what's really going on here. Much of the fanbase is too young to remember the discourse and forums surrounding the 2000s games, but are old enough to remember the RUclips commentary, which is much more accessible than old forums. So now they've developed this belief that the criticisms began there.
This is why I appreciate channels like The Geek Critique. He actually shows how it was like back then. He showed how much the fanbase was divided on Sonic Adventure 2 from the start. He showed how Shadow the Hedgehog was hated before the game even came out!
I would be more sympathetic towards these people if they weren't doing the exact same thing they complain about. They constantly talk about how classic fans would berate them, be elitist, and tell them that their Sonic isn't the "real" Sonic. But now that they're the loudest part of the fanbase, they're doing just that! Berating fans of the newer content (Prime, movies, IDW, Superstars, etc.) while arguing that THEIR Sonic (2000s Shiro Maekawa) is the only REAL Sonic.
The same guys who act like the victim will instantly lash out at anyone who likes Forces or thinks Superstars is better than Mania.
Also, Sam Procrastinates' theory that *2010s RUclips* was the influence behind Lost World and Forces is beyond hilarious.
@@JadeJovian Yeah, I remember when Shadow first came out (the game, not the character) there were plenty of people on forums back then who legitimately thought it was the series jumping the shark. Before the game even released some believed it was a joke, or that Sega was getting desperate to "reinvent" the series by making it as tonally different as possible. Mind you this was very much a trend at the time; Space Raiders (the dark and edgy Space Invaders reboot) was only a few years old, and Bomberman Act Zero released only a year after Shadow. All of this before RUclips.
Shadow himself was even a pretty contentious character back then too, some fans found him really out of place for what the series was up to that point. I'll admit to being one of them at the time, but my opinion of him is much higher 25+ years later. I think he's one of the better additions to the core cast. But making fun of his design and character was one of the most common jokes in the early 2000s, even if he did still have plenty of fans (although not nearly as much as he's gained since).
I do believe there is precedent for RUclipsrs accidentally creating narratives because they have impressionable viewers, I just don't believe Sonic's reputation is a great example of one.
This really made me question that Chaomix video because I really agree with you on this.
I've yet to see the whole video. So far you've made some good points, but I think you're wrong about what "general audiences" think.
By "general audience", it seems like you're most likely talking about gamers. Which is still a very large demographic, but not enough to be the average person. Based on the people you spoke to, they sound like the edgy gamer type who'd say "Mario is for little babies" or something.
I don't think the general population who plays little to no video games hates Sonic. Given the success of the movies, they probably think he's alright.
Sonic fans are like 50% of the reason I don't have Twitter. Great video btw!
@@ChaimPavione Thanks!
That's a shame cuz there are still really good Sonic artists on twitter but I guess some are also on Instagram or the like
What about the TikTokers on there
@@spiderzilla7o7there are a few on tiktok but mostly on twitter
Sonic fans need a reality check. It drives me nuts how the modern Fandom has this collective amnesia about 06 and its cataclysmic impact on the series' reputation. It's been nearly 20 years, and people still make fun of it. It had cool ideas but people use that as an excuse to defend it. Sorry, Sonic 06 is not special because its development was troubled. We can't cut it slack because of the how messed up the development was. The Shadow game is THE reason why Shadow is still the poster boy for tryhard edgelords and why he's portrayed outside the fandom as a gun-wielding maniac. They treat Colors like its the devil that ruined the franchise even though it's the game that salvaged it (at least for a little bit). Colors isn't my favorite, I honestly prefer Generations and Unleashed, but I'd rather play Colors over Adventure 2, Heroes, Shadow and 06 any day of the week.
Literally one of the most well worded, and well put together videos I have ever watched. As a long time fan of the series, this really made me rethink my views on a lot of the 3D games, and surprisingly how well thought out Sonic 1 and the roll are.
This video really opened my eyes and made me really think of the greater perception of the Sonic Series and the fanbase.
I've written a lot of different versions of this comment, but I want to keep this short.
My views of this franchise have really shifted these last few years, and because of that, I've grown appreciation for the times the series really went above and beyond. While I have my guilty pleasures (I am one of the few who can actually get some enjoyment out of 06 even though it is a terrible game) I understand why people would be put off by the jank or not be able to get into the series and it's world like I have
At the end of the day, it's a videogame series made for kids, and while it might not mean anything to a lot of people, It does mean a lot to me, and many others, we wouldn't have Sonic Mania if we didn't, but Sonic's golden days have long since passed, and so have the fandoms...
I've spent nearly 30 Minutes writing this comment, and to me, that means something.
You know why some fans disliking the idea of sonic being callled kids only franchise?
Well in my opinion(I guess) it reminds them when some saying animation are only for kids which when think would make a lot of sense,thing is animation can't be only enjoyed kids it could also enjoy by others because if it was exclusive for kids only then no one well enjoy it
Unfortunate animation still gets disrespect and isn't viewed as an art(looking at you Netflix)
the thing is, there's a difference beetween stuff targeted to kids only and stuff targeted to all ages
as he said in the video
so animation that is specifically done to appeal to kids, might exist actually
i think part of the reason for sonic's reputation in the US, which sunshine didn't dwell on in his video, is the way cartoons and animation are viewed in the US. there's a stigma around cartoons in that they're only made for children, you can tell by the overabundance of animated children's shows but the general lack of animated shows with particularly dark subject matter. there are exceptions of course, but even big name studios like disney are moving away from 2D animation because they see it as being "for kids".
it's no secret that sonic himself was partially inspired by old cartoons, he even has the rubber hose limbs. i think that to average americans, a "cartoon character" trying to be cool and edgy is just a stupid idea. combine that with all the problems inherent to the sonic series (which sunshine did cover in the video) and sonic turns out to be the perfect punching bag, sometimes for good reason.
@@azylan this kinda correlates with evolution of overall culture, because black shirts with cartoon characters trying to be gangsta and edgy used to be very popular in the 2000s, but nowadays it's more of a material for ironic jokes
@@azylan old cartoons wasn't always viewed as kids cartoon and kids wasn't qlways watching it,but back then restriction,mandate and even censorship wasn't there,nowadays however the network having more restrictions on what can and can't show on tv or even streaming service
When I was 13 some of the kids at my school didn’t even criticize it😂,they just said “imagine playing Sonic” or “All you do in Sonic is run”
were you held back for most of those 13 years or something because "All you do in sonic is run" is something a 3rd grader would say
@@Tired_Tortilla NO, EVEN WORSE!
They were Fortnite players….
@@A_literal_supernova I’m so sorry for your loss
@@A_literal_supernova It all makes sense now
@@A_literal_supernova They made fun of my friend when we are in school because he said Sonic was better than Fortnite. They also played Fortnite.
Most of the criticism is mostly from people who don't and usually wouldn't really care about the franchise. Sadly, the cringe fandom that still exists lays stench over the pretty good games. Unfortunately for them they don't see how gnarly Sonic can be.
Yeah, those same guys who think sonic dreams collection is a canon game to the series
Sonic dreams collection is a collection of sonic games.@@Sonicfalcon16
Some of us (me included) are fans of Sega's other franchises and we see how much money, time and effort gets put into their other titles and then we look at Sonic games and they're never really great graphically and are sort of clunky by nature (talking about Modern 3D Sonic, of course this doesn't apply to Mania and Classic Sonic titles with maybe the exception of Superstars) and we'd like to see them put more of those things into their mascot's series. In my case, it's especially disappointing to see the state of the modern day Sonic games because I'm a huge fan of Sega's old arcade and Dreamcast-era titles from the 90s and 2000s, and also a big fan of Yakuza. I love classic games like Daytona USA, Jet Set Radio Future, Crazy Taxi, Clockwork Knight, Seaman, House of the Dead, and all their super obscure arcade titles (that criminally never get home releases). It's hard to look at that side of Sega and then see the state of what's supposed to be their one big bread and butter franchise.
Edit: My reply was THAT LONG? 😳
@@Sonicfalcon16 lol the friend of the guy of the video literally says "the nes games were good tough"
so its quite comparable to that
Good games? Where?
This video really got me to sit down with my thoughts regarding Sonic and contemplate about the fanbase and franchise’s history for an hour straight, no joke. Maybe this video served as a breaking point after barely being able to speak about my Sonic opinions in person lol, thanks. Staying outside of the Sonic internet bubble trap has helped me embrace different opinions and maintain my sanity, but I can’t help but feel like imma take my opinions to the grave.
Why do people get like this. Like “oh no someone likes or doesn’t like something that I do”. Maybe most of this drama could be avoided if people just chilled out and stopped taking this stuff so seriously.
This is the real problem, these people can’t shut up
I don’t get why people hate the sonic fans so much. They are seen like racists or something
@@spiderzilla7o7 Well we should first clarify, Sonic fans themselves are not hated. Being someone who just likes Sonic is totally fine to many. The problem is with the Sonic fanbase who thanks to having some of the most unsavory representation that continues to this day has garnered a reputation for being this perpetually angry and insufferable ball of cringe with people who will still rage at IGN for making a single bad review and insisting every negative review after the fact is them warring against the blue dude, consumers who'd shout down any criticism and engage in toxic positivity so extreme that in the most wild scenario of SEGA releasing a Sonic game that's so badly optimized the system basically fries itself, they'd still defend it and children who to be blunt are far too young to be on the internet and they're being exposed to content they really shouldn't be.
@@spiderzilla7o7 Well I'm racist, so you're not entirely wrong.
I could not have found a better video that summarises my gripes with most of the Sonic fandom
This video perfectly explains all the problems the Sonic franchise has and definitely need to be fixed (somehow)
Long comment incoming: I feel like whats always missing in this conversations is conflating fanbases as one person and generations of ppl. Mind you this series is over 30 years old and at a certain point you get different eras of discussion. I remember when the Adventure era stuff got so much shit when I was a kid but after a couple of years you see a pendulum swing about how the Adventure games are one the best games or most fondly remembered Sonic games. This to an outsider who (understandably) cant view it as literal millions of ppl but as a guy with common associated tropes like referencing Chris Chan or something see the fanbase as confusing and it not knowing what they want. Pair it with Sega releasing games of different variety and/or quality you get what we have.
What I see now is a reaction to the very negative and draining period of: the fanbase, outsiders, and 10 years of straight dryness and insecurity from Sega (except for Gens and Mania). Mind you this was much closer to the era of peak mockery of the fanbase. Now some critique is met with this air of uneasiness because of that time that they probably grew up around. This is why sayings like "Sonic had a rough transition into 3D" as example is a meme cause although sorta true(?) its a tired phrase and doesnt really mean much. Sonic 06 Reviews are even a meme because everyone and their mom knows about it. At a certain point everything that could be said has been said which is why you get folks saying a thing they liked about it like Shadows Storys being the only intresting part of that game storywise or something. Like think about, who wants to be around a person who always states why they hate something vs liking something in the sea of "why X is bad". I did watch that Chaomix video and part of that video had some personal experiences with growing up being a Sonic fan which kinda paints the whole picture to me.
Im longwinded ik and do have other things to say but Ill end it here. I appreciate this video nonetheless^^
even generations felt dry in a way
I dont think most fans (on Twitter) know how to think critically, theres always a bias towards everything.
Seen people be dogpiled for liking 06, criticizing frontiers, criticizing knuckles, at this point we'll be dogpiled for liking anything that isn't from paramount or flynn
Keep in mind that the person who liked 06 never said it was good, nor tried to defend its flaws, they just explained why they did find it enjoyable, and sonic twitter kept whining
Hell even by just being skeptical with Shadow Generations footage gets you dogpiled even if i personally kinda excited with the game.
@@DaHeis especially with the whole "it looks like forces" thing. I'm pretty sure they just assume that everyone thinks it's bad so when they hear "it looks like forces" they think "it looks bad"
I honestly never liked Flynn’s writing outside of some of his Mega Man comics.
@@antidisestablishmentarianism3 At least i'm happy that is not being directed by Kishimoto's A team and they even brought back some of the og Gens devs for this expansion. Ironically enough this game that's supposed to be a small scale/tie-in* with Movie 3 looks more polished and more grander (is that a word?) than Frontiers.
In response to your statement of Xtreme being the 06 of the 90s, while I wouldn’t say it would’ve been 90s equivalent to 06, it would’ve made a drastic impact on the series on its own right, which would vary depending on what you view of the game’s production.
Finished this monster of a video. I agreed with pretty much agree with 98% of the video. I'd also think that people underestimate the power of sonoc's sprites in the mega drive games and how much personality it gave to the character, more so than the more "serious" sonic from 2001-2009. Although i don't mind the quippy 2010s interpretation and Frontiers is the dirst time I fell the characters had actually a personality that goes beyond their archetype.
The only thing I disagree is the reputation of the franchise from the outside perspective: while it isn't the best rn, I don't think the series is seen in the gutter either. My favorire part of TGS this year wasn't the sonic x shadow trailer but the standing ovasion when the game was named drop: it gave me the impression that, whatever sonic team or sega are doing, it is gaining interest from the people. Or even when IGN apologized for the "sonic was never good" talk. I don't think we are toatally in the clean and the fanbase will always be a laughing stock, but I'm feeling a change in the series perception for the better.
Good job on the video!
That Sonic Xtreme/06 defense comment made my jaw drop. Trying to prop up a game that was infamously rushed out the door as a cash grab for the Holidays as some kind of anti establishment arthouse project is a step beyond copium, it's genuine fucking insanity. Let alone to write off Mania, a game that exists only because of the fans' devotion and love for the series, as the direct opposite. People really just be saying whatever in RUclips comments man...
Sonic Insania
I just wish we could actually have discussions like this. Instead people outside the series just assume that all 3D Sonic games (and sometimes the 2D ones) are as bad as Sonic "Development Hell" O6. The amount of times terms like mediocre and jank are thrown around without anything qualifying them just makes you want to ignore the supposed criticism, since none of it is constructive. Pointing at a random indie game with fast movement and saying "This is what Sonic should be" doesn't address the problems people have with Sonic, it just shines a negative light on that indie game.
SRB2 is an interesting point of comparison, but it makes me see why 3D Sonic is so linear, and why most 3D platformers go the sandbox collect-a-thon route. The amount of times SRB2 has to use rings to lead the player around makes me think they should have picked one of the two.
28:20 Interesting to see someone actually had that happen without actively stopping and hugging the walls. After the whole game grumps debacle I went back to my copy of DX and it took effort to make that happen. But just running through, even if I touched the walls... nothing. I always just held forward because that's what the kid said, just keep going in the direction you want to go.
"Shiro Maekawa was a mistake"
- OG Sonic Team
I wish you would’ve acknowledged that probably the bigger reason people grew out of sonic at 14 is because the gameplay styles kept changing, not just cause they weren’t in the child demographic. The adventure fans (me) left cause of boost, the classic fans left cause they didn’t click with adventure. Not to mention the tonal shifts and the fact that almost every sonic game is a downgrade from sa2 as a package (variety, side content, multiplayer, secrets, mastery)
That's definitely a part of it, for sure!
I'm so glad you decided to make this video. In the current era of Sonic fans throwing around words like "peak" and "mid", just to describe what they do and don't like with reckless abandon, this is exactly what people need to hear.
That intro was great! When I started watching this video, I thought to myself: "Really? Is this another one of those videos that talk about how "Sonic is in such a better place now!!!!!" even though he really isn't?" and then I was pleasantly surprised when you actually said that he isn't in a "much better place"
The thing is the intro is kinda stupid sonic is in a better place, but in the video he is just straight up hating on him loll
Now, before anyone puts words in my mouth, 06 is a bad game. With that being said, it is not one of the worst games of all time. It has its redeeming qualities such as level design, character writing (specifically the main trio), and incredible music. Sure, it has glitches and a lot of them at that, but is that really comparable to something like bubsy 3d or Superman 64 or Sonic boom? I'd say it's a solid C teir game
(I personally like breaking 06 in two because glitches are fun. So it's a guilty pleasure)
Also, great vid.
When I criticised Sonic X Shadow Generations I was immediately attacked. Not in a serious way in all honesty but it seems Sonic Fans don't like criticism or know how to handle it.
I agree with everything said in this video l, it was really well thought through and engaging.
My point of view is that I don't care whether it's classic/momentum adventure, boost, lighthearted, serious I just want it to be done properly.
I of course have my favourite styles but I also can accept when I'm not the target demographic for a certain style.
I grew up in the dark ages when Sonic was at its most serious so I'm biased towards that but I completely understand why people view it as melodramatic and over the top.
Even with my bias I can still appreciate some jokes in Colours and understand why people would view it as a breath of fresh air.
Sonic fans are just very insecure and paranoid because most of us grew up being ostracised for liking Sonic either in real life or online and now lash out at any and all criticism even if it's from people who normally like the franchise.
While I understand your points, I have a different perspective on a few things:
Firstly, I disagree with the way Sonic Colours was written. The creators didn't know who Sonic was,it would have been better to look into him. While it's acceptable to portray Sonic in a light-hearted manner, the attempt to appear cool and funny felt forced. Some lines did manage to make me laugh, like the "no copyright law" line.
Moving on to my second point, serious storytelling can be effective for Modern Sonic, as seen in works like Idw Sonic and Frontiers. Despite some flaws in these narratives, Frontiers integrates lore into an open-world setting and providing breaks in from story. Also development for Tails in the game shows characterisation for the charaters,I'm using him as an example:
Tails projects emotions towards the Coco and admits feeling like a burden to Sonic due to his reliance on him during adventures. This method effectively conveys Tails' character arc to a broader audience, while also addressing past writing issues. Sonic's response, acknowledging Tails' contributions and supporting Tails choice to go on his own adventure showcases their familial bond in a heartwarming manner.
Lastly, I know criticism towards Sonic games are a longstanding trend. Sonic 06, in particular, initiated a pattern where each Sonic game was scrutinized for its perceived flaws. Some critics, like the Game Grumps, often blamed the games when they played bad. While it's acceptable to critique Sonic content, but a significant portion of the criticism seemed driven by personal agendas or the desire for attention, even extending to disparaging the fanbase. While it's good to acknowledge that the Sonic fanbase has its faults, it's best to approach criticism constructively. Instances like an uncle discouraging his nephew from becoming a Sonic fan due to negative perceptions, illustrate why fans may become defensive when faced with unwarranted hostility. It would be better to address issues within the fanbase without resorting to blanket negativity. Though I also don't want toxic positivity either.
This was a interesting Sonic fan video hope you read my ponits.
Omg finally someone said it
Very good reply.
"Sonic 06, in particular, initiated a pattern where each Sonic game was scrutinized for its perceived flaws."
But 06 and secret rings were legit terrible games. And 06 already had a terrible rep before the game grumps played it, because the game was (and still is) one of the worst AAA games ever released.
I mainly know Sonic The Hedgehog from the TV show Sonic X. That was practically my childhood introduction to the franchise and for the longest, I always associated the franchise with that show even though it wasn't canon to the Adventure games. The only hands-on experience I have with gaming is classic 2D games even though I'm Gen Z.
I used to play a pirated version of SMB1 and played Sonic Advance 2 on my cousin's DS or GBA. 2D gaming is just my comfort zone since my parents didn't get me a lot of video games when I was younger. They cared more about my school work.
But I eventually got my own DS and played New Super Mario Bros, Super Princess Peach and Pokémon Ranger.
Everytime I played online flash games on my dad's computer, it was usually just Mario and Sonic flash games, which were using assets from either the classic 8 bit and 16 bit titles or the RPG games.
In high school I began to play a bit more 3D stuff, like Naruto and Persona 5 with my sister. When I got Ninja Turtles: Mutants In Manhattan, it was my first full experience with playing a modern 3D game. I even still played 2D games like the Mega Man Legacy Collections. I haven't beaten all 10 mainline titles yet. I struggled a lot with Mega Man 8 and didn't even went near 7. Sonic Mania was fun and played it repeatedly.
Finally when I got to playing Sonic Forces and Frontier's, I admit that by then, I've never experienced playing a 3D Sonic game before. Those two games were just trial and errors really. But I couldn't navigate the cyberspace levels probably since I was inexperienced with other Sonic titles. I really prefered it if like in the Boom dash games, Sonic would just remain in three lanes so that he is able to grab rings and make better decisions when incoming obstacles. Especially for those who want to grab the red star rings which I don't know what special features they unlock.
But right now I'm still playing Frontiers and I'm having quite a fun time understanding the game despite being somewhat of a noob.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this new sort of Sonic era once its finished. While the reputation of Sonic isn't fully repaired, its rising. The fact that Snoop Dogg is flashing Sonic jewelry shows that people are warming up. Sonic Frontiers is a fresh unique take that is going to partially be expanded in Shadow Gens. Beyond that the next open zone game might turn out huge thanks to the apparent increase in budget. All they have to do is not fumble and do the Unleashed "You didn't like blank? FINE WE'LL SCRAP ALL OF IT AND MAKE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT." I like Unleashed but I think a better game would have been produced if they evaluated the issues with 06 and made the move to heavily improve those aspects and give them time to develop a playable game.
I've never felt that the criticism was undeserved for Sonic games. I've liked Sonic since I was six, & I never heard anyone get anyone get upset over Sonic's criticism until last year, really. I criticize the series all the time, & I understand that it's not for everyone, but I couldn't fathom getting upset over someone having a different opinion.
Yes, the reviews from the late 2000s contributed to the fans' jumpy behavior, but the criticisms were coming all the way back from when Sonic Adventure released. People just need to accept that not every criticism made to the franchise & games is not an attack on their personal integrity.
It's so refreshing to see videos like this by Sonic fans who don't just keep themselves in an echo chamber.
That ending bit was extremely funny 😂
As a sonic fan this is nothing new to me.
Sonic rush is my favorite sonic game, I know it’s flawed but there is something about it… it’s not nostalgia because I finished the game this year but something just clicked. In a certain way that’s something unique about being a sonic fan, you can have fun with the worst sonic games of all time. I don’t need sonic to be the biggest franchise of all time and with what sonic team has been putting out I doubt he’ll ever get there, maybe if sega stopped treating him as their biggest franchise and just let sonic team cook maybe the games wold be better and he could finally be the mascot he once was.
Yoooo, fellow rush fan!!!!
Sonic Rush was hardly the worst game. It is far from flawless sure, but I recall it being a good game at the very least.
If there’s one confession I want to make, it’s that I don’t like the Sonic Movies. Not even the 2nd film. I hated the 1st movie, and while I think the 2nd movie’s a little better, there were still issues I have with it.
Whenever I explain why I don’t like it, the fans would just say “Ugh, it’s a different universe bro.” Or “Ugh, Knuckles & Tails were better in the movies then they were in the Meta Era” or something like that. And honestly though, I’d say the movies did Tails & Knux dirty compared to the other adaptations.
Personally, there were things I said about the movies that were too harsh, even for me. And honestly, while I still don’t like the movies, I don’t think they’re one of the worst things imaginable, or something like that.
I’m not a Sonic Fan because of the 1st movie. But now that I’m older… I just don’t care if there’s a new game or a new show coming out. I’ve moved on, and I’m happy the movies brought in new fans, because at the end of the day… Sonic’s more then a videogame icon… he’s a pop culture icon. And whenever there’s a new adaptation or game or comic, there’s always gonna be a new iteration of Sonic that anyone can love (And hate), that would stick out to them the most.
Think you'll do a video on why calling the 2010's period of the series "The Meta Era" is actually fucking stupid?
Enjoyed the video! It brings up a ton of great points that usually are either misrepresented or not discussed at all
This video really changed my perspective of the franchise I am so glad I watched this. I can’t wait to see your other videos
As a Sonic Fan myself, I can agree, I got into Sonic via Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Sonic 3 and Knuckles is my favorite Sonic game and had the AOSTH VHS tape of that had Slowwww Going and Over the Hill Hero, Sonic's Song and Best Hedgehog and Grounder the Genius and Blank headed eagle, I think criticism is needed for improvement.
I always criticize games like Sonic Heroes, Sonic Battle, Shadow the Hedgehog, the Sonic Riders series Sonic 06, the Sonic Rivals series, Sonic Chronicles, the Sonic Storybook series Sonic Lost World and Sonic Forces, the Archie Comics (Issue 51 though Issue 247) and shows like Sonic X because Sega-ATLUS, TMS and Archie can do better, then I'll get hate saying that I'm ether a Classic Cuck, a Meta Era stans or a Mario/Nintendo Fanboy, I like Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, the Sonic Advance trilogy, the Sonic Rush series, Sonic Unleashed HD, Sonic Colors Wii and DS, Sonic Generations, Sonic Mania/Sonic Mania Plus and Sonic Frontiers, yes they have jank but I think they can be better (with Sonic Frontiers being a step forward in the right direction.)
Just because I prefer AOSTH, Sonic OVA, the IDW Comics and Sonic Prime over shows and comics like the Archie comics Sonic X, Sonic Boom and Sonic Satam that don't make me a "Ture" Sonic Fan, there is no such thing as a True Sonic Fan, You're ether a Fan who likes the series and want's to support it by playing the games, buying the merch, checking out the IDW and watching Sonic Prime on Netflix and enjoyed the Sonic Movies or you're a fanboy that obsesses over the series and will defend the series and games like Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic 06 and Sonic Forces, shows like Sonic X and Sonic Satam and the Archie comics and characters like Cosmo and Sally Acorn because ~"you didn't like them and that you're a dumb kid or manchild who plays Mario games and you should d*e," this is why I left the Sonic Fanbase because of this.
TBH I think the series is in a better place right now, but not where it was from 1991 though 2001 but better then where it was from 2003 though 2008 and 2013 though 2020 (2020 for the first Movie when they fixed up Sonic) but it can get there and I hope Sega-ATLUS can take criticism better and whatever they can take after Sonic Frontiers and Shadow Generations they can make it for Sonic Frontiers 2 and we could see another golden era for the series like in the Genesis/Mega Drive era, while Sonic Fanboys/Fangirls are bad, I think the Super Smash Bros. fanbase is far more worse gaming wise.
I feel like I comment on something I learned from this video, but there's too much to comment on. Great video!
Honestly, sonic 06 is good in a goofy way, I mean yeah it's glitchy but remember some glitches make you able to speedrun the shit out of 06 not to mention some abilities make the game even more fun due to how broken it is.
1:20 fucking crazy that adult swim wanna talk when they air Rick and Morty
@@Keeplele Does Rick and Morty still have a bad fanbase? I thought most of the Redditors who made up the Rick and Morty fanbase moved on to Smiling Friends
@@Something_Maybe Rick and Morty kind of does but they definitely left when the show continuously reemphasized that Rick was a shitty person you should never idolize.
@@the-aspiring-creator4249pretty much
The fact they air anime on their channel as well is ironic their trying to joke about anime fans
@@Chillin-jg8vg To be fair, some anime fans... are bizarre aliens who don't understand how to human.
As a sonic enjoyer I just moved on to the 2d games now it's why I adore freedom planet and mario has enjoyable games for me super mario 64 and sunshine any day
I love the subtle running gag of you mentioning sonic being on the nes. Great video man, really made my day as a jaded sonic fan
I am curious how much of it is hostility towards criticism, and how much of it may be gatekeeping.
The sad thing is, sonic fans will never change or learn no matter what you do.
Yep, theirs still Sonic fans saying Shadow Generations looka like Forces and one guy in the comment saying the boost gameplay kills it for me.
We just gotta wait for the Zoomers to age out because it's obvious they care more about arguing about Sonic than actually appreciating it and their love of the franchise is incredibly narrow for one era.
And yet in my opinion sonic fans will just continue to gush over game trailers and levels we have seen over a gazillion times like Mario or Nintendo fans. Then when it comes out they won’t be satisfied at all, or it will never be as good as they hoped.
What the actual hell do they want? Do you want dark stories with good scripting, or good games? Make up your mind for god sake! They just never know what they want or it’s just concepts on top of concepts. It’s like a kid at school who has an idea but every other kid in the classroom has an idea over his and just talks over him. You get what I mean? This isn’t a good world.
I completely agree. Like, every single point you made.
Great video, made me think a lot.
Is it bad that I think that I'm delusional for believing that Dee Jay in SF6 has had more character development than Tails has in Frontiers? A side character who had little to no bearing on anything story related somehow has been treated MUCH better in modern times than a sidekick who's been around since Sonic was first created?
You aren't because it's your opinion
Sonic fans act like the series demographic: children
Something I think people should do and a few have, is to make the game they want to see in sonic games. We have 2 series right now Spark the electric jester and rollin rascal doing that. And when you show someone what they want and play them you get a better understanding of what they want and they get a game on steam to buy that is an alternative. We shockingly don't have many adventure inspired games or boost inspired games by other indie devs.
Let’s be real we are all man children as sonic fans
Everyone knows because you hate on a franchise you like
I don't really agree with this video, it really depends on how people interact with fans. Like fan games are hella hard to make and the fact that they are doing it for no pay is something else entirely.
Man this video was so great I hope more people see this. Great work.
It's finally here! >:3
The current state of sonic feels so confusing to me because they’re trying to appeal to everyone. Classic, modern, adventure, movies, comics, tv shows, etc and nobody is happy or can agree on it. I myself don’t like the current direction either since I grew up with colors and generations so it makes sense why I don’t like forces/frontiers and especially that new shadow generations campaign.
Whatever SEGA does moving on, I’ll probably just stop caring and I already know there’s going to be one game that’ll make them restart the process all over again.
Nah, the only people that are not happy are the ones that spend allday in social media. I've met people online and irl that enjoys sonic's current output. It's a "puck your own poison" situation
Forces was seen as more inline with colors and generations tone wise I think
@@crimsonzone8984 nice joke bro
6:18
Big was never annoying. I will never understand the hate or criticism he got. Especially that a lot of it was directed towards his gameplay, not his character.
Blame Sonic Chronicles
@@TacoManX9Barely anyone played that dumpster fire from what I’ve seen. Funnily enough it was both my first RPG and my first DS game. If you start at rock bottom the only place to go is up.
Gamers hate fat characters (it reminds them of how they look in real life)
@@Abomdosnow Real! /j
@@Abomdosnow I like his character but I hate the fishing gameplay.
The best thing SegaSammyJapan can do right now for its western audience is just loosen more of that creative freedom, for Sonic anyway. Reason being is so those who working on the projects can really deliver with the right management.
They really have nothing much to lose on Sonic, aside from the rest of his dignity to be squashed after the movies. But truth be told…I don’t know if that would be enough? This is a different era now and as much I hate to be the crinkly old man, they have none to blame but themselves.
this video has honestly inspired me to make my own sonic fan creation, so thank you for that!
I definitely think a lot of people's love for Sonic relies heavily on nostalgia, mine too. You notice that throughout the years, the fanbase starts referring to whatever the series was like 20 years ago as the golden era. It's happening now with 2000s fans. I have gotten harassed for not putting Sonic Unleashed in my top 3 favorite video games of all time. If I check the profile of whoever left the comment, they're likely a 20 year old crying about how cool Sonic used to be when THEY were a kid and how it sucks now. It's just amazing how much these people lack any self awareness.
A lot of Sonic fans also just don't seem to play any other games besides Sonic. Like I am begging these people to take a solid 2 years off the franchise and play other games then come back to it. I guarantee they'll stop looking at Sonic with rose tinted glasses. I love Sonic, but the franchise as a whole is mediocre.
Japanese sonic had aura
I've always thought that Sonic CD vibe was the perfect amount of shonen edgyness. Imagine if Shadow was conceived in that style.
This is why I don't get people so who try defend stuff like 06's jank and say "well it's not Boom and isn't that bad". Like no way you're putting over a broken game that killed any momentum Sonic had at that point.
I personally kinda appreciate what Sonic Team intended on the artistic side of the game and fan games such as Project 06 give us a much clearear vision of that idea but even then, i'm aware is no perfect game and is seen as the worst games of all time and the catalyzer of Sonic's current mixed reputation in the gaming sphere aswell.
I like breaking 06
Long comment incoming!
The Sonic franchise shifting its identity so much has prevented it from being as beloved as other well-known franchises. Fans might say that each Sonic game offering different gameplay styles and stories is a strength of the franchise. As the saying goes, "there's a Sonic game for everyone"...but this simply isn't true. In fact, it's part of what pushes people further away from the franchise and one of the main reason the fanbase is broken beyond repair. When Sonic made the leap to 3D, Sega should've stuck with the Adventure style gameplay while making slight improvements, rather than throwing it away completely after failure of Sonic 06. Though to be fair, I don't entirely blame Sega for thinking they needed to start over from scratch with a new gameplay style because people were already starting to get fed up with the franchise after Sonic Heroes and Shadow's self-titled game, then Sonic 06 was the last straw and people went into "everything sucks" mode (though I don't blame fans for that either, of course).
So after Sonic 06, the "boost mechanic" gameplay from Sonic Rush became the new gameplay style for the mainline titles. Now, I'm fine with the boost-style gameplay since Rush was my first Sonic game, but I recognize that the boost mechanic taking over as the new gameplay style caused a rift in the fanbase. The boost gameplay in Sonic Rush and Rush Adventure was more akin to the Classics, being 2D and all. Even when the boost mechanic made its way to the 3D games, they often included 2D sections in levels, which annoyed fans of 3D gameplay. The blend of 2D and 3D gameplay in levels was presumably an attempt to please both classic Sonic fans and modern Sonic fans, yet this only caused another rift in the fanbase. Then came Sonic Lost World, which had gameplay more like Mario in an attempt to please Mario fans, and was even descibed as "a Sonic game for Mario fans" by Sega. Naturally, Lost World ended up flopping, because why would Mario fans play a Sonic game that tries to be a Mario game...when they could just play an actual Mario game? Not to mention the fact that the Wii U itself was a flop.
This is why I said they should've stuck with the Adventure-style gameplay and continuing improving it. By trying to please everybody, Sega pleases nobody in the end. They seem to be sticking to the boost mechanic in the most recent games and I hope it stays that way, even if that might alienate some fans. I just want Sega to stay consistent with Sonic and not switch up out of the blue anymore. But then again, they wouldn't have to deal with the risk of alienating certain fans and trying to please multiple crowds of people at once if they didn't constantly switch up gameplay styles in the first place. With Mario games, you always know what you're gonna get. The same can't be said for Sonic, which is what turns people away. On top of not knowing what gameplay you may get, you'll also be worrying about if the game will be a broken mess or not.
Many of the games also have tone and writing problems. When it comes to the stories in Sonic games, I prefer something simpler rather than complex plots. It's clear that Sonic Team are not good at writing and can't do drama well. The few exceptions where they managed to make a decent story, like SA2 and Black Knight, don't make the rule. And Sonic being the only playable character isn't a bad thing. I know fans want a ton of playable characters, but Sonic's gameplay is what most people come for and it should be the most polished.
I don't like how the American side of Sega felt the need to exaggerate Sonic's coolness and give him a more "tOtaLlY rAdiCal" attitude, either. Sega of Japan's version of Sonic didn't need alterations. He was cool, but in a subtle way that reminded me of a trickster like Bugs Bunny. Them giving Sonic a stereotypical "90's tude" in the cartoons and advertising unintentionally made the character dated, and it's now something that people outside the fandom mock. Whenever someone does a "Sonic voice" in a manner that's meant to make fun of the character, they always go for a stereotypical 90's "totally radical" tone, despite Sonic not even sounding like that anymore. This is why Mario characters are more appealing to people, while Sonic characters routinely get labeled as "annoying". Mario's simplicity makes him charming and timeless. On the other hand, Sonic characters can often be loud and exaggerated with their personalities and behaviors. I and many other fans may not mind this since we've gotten used to these characters or have grown up with them, but they can be grating to critics and people outside the fandom. Check out the millions of articles and videos detailing the "Top 10 Worst Sonic Characters". Sonic is probably the only franchise that has more "Worst of" videos than "Best of", because there's so little about the franchise for people to be positive about.
Another thing is how Sega of Japan went too far in pandering to an American crowd. This can be seen in the Shadow 05' game. After getting messages from fans demanding that Shadow wield a gun, Sega listened and decided to go all out, giving Shadow his own game. Sega added many things that they assumed would please Americans: guns, swearing, an alien invasion, the White House, etc. This backfired because it was so ridiculous and over the top that even Americans couldn't stomach it. Of course, their first mistake was listening to fans, which is what no big-name company should ever do. As with any fandom, there's constant differing of opinions, so trying to listen to fans sounds absolutely crazy and would be a nightmare. They should simply be ignored.
Anyway, those are the reasons I believe Sonic has failed to become as loved as other franchises. Sonic may be popular, but the franchise is loved and hated in equal measures.
The main reason why some fans nowadays are willing to cut 06 some slack, is because of the fan remake P-06, which basically fixes the glitches and makes the game more like how it was supposed to be
This was a great video. Definitely has some food for thought in it worth thinking about.
There's a video on a youtube channel called moon channel that talked about Segas strategy towards Sonic in the 2000's.
Describing the character and the franchise as a "savior of the children"
I'm sure not everybody who worked on a sonic game agreed with this mindset but you can see this philosophy clear as day with just how poorly the franchise was mistreated. I mean....there's no way turning sonic into a werehog was an executuve order. But did the executives give a dhit? Absolutely not, because they already knew who the game was for, their target was set.
Amd I personally believe these crazy combination of weird ideas and that "savior of the children" philosophy is whats running the discussion around Sonic games today. People can't bare to see their precious thing be beat down or criticized because "well I liked it so...."
And then they proceed to throw the baby out with the bathwater with things they don't like because its not targeted at them anymore, without really sitting down and asking themselves and other fans the right questioms. Sonic Colors isn't flawed because of its toned down nature, colorful environments or even the wisps, its flawed because of its simplicity...and thats just my opinion.
A lot of people who engage in these discussions in a not civil way say they just want the franchise to be better, or have other people use that to defend them on their behalf but I believe its people wanting something they had when they were younger and not having it. A sort of toxic nostalgia. I cannot tell you the amount of times I've seen youtubers praise the dark age of sonic, going on and on about how cool and serious the series was and how colors and lost world is a sin! And as someone who was unaware of sonic's existence at the time, looking back retroactively as an adult...THIS is your Sonic?? I'm not even saying its all bad, its just funny to me how nostalgia blind some people are. And how quick to defense they can get.
And ultimately it us Segas fault but still...
Edit: and I didn't even mention how Sonic fans (certain fans) react to when other people go after something they like. I mostly just talked about the madness that happens within the asylum--i mean community. IGN made a whole ass video basically as an adendum and apolpgy for that sonic was never good quote which i can appreciate I guess, but we shouldn't let certain critiques of gaming journalist#328 define your enjoyment of something, nor should you let THEIR enjoyment of something get you steaming like a vegetable...only smarter
sonic fans win every argument with
"you're just a butthurt nintendo fan lololol sega does what nintendon't"
You mean "sonic fans".... looking at specific "sonic fans" comments that I see in RUclips comments. Yes, I encountered some of them. Anyways, I think that some sonic fans act like that, tbh
"Sonic solos real life. Until we meet again."
They fighting a console war that Sonic lost before they were even born lol.
I've never heard that.
Wait so are you with or against sonic
This is what I've been saying, bro. I acknowledge that Sonic is weird. Even the Genesis games were unlike any other 2D platformers at the time. I like every Sonic game, even the ones with heinous motion controls. But if people don't like them, that's fine.
about to watch this, hoping and praying this isnt like most youtube videos where it misses out on the fact people who are positive about a game are shunned too
I personally dislike all sonic games, but I can respect how plucky the devs are and how much they try to innovate on Sonic.
If I said "Mario & Luigi Dream Team > Sonic Frontiers", how cruel WW3 would be?
You’re spitting facts.
It's an unfair comparison tho. They're two different styles of games. I feel like comparing frontiers to something like Odyssey would've been better
I mean, Dream Team is objectively better, but they are totally different games.
sega: encourages fangames and even made one a real sonic game.
nintendo: destroys an orphanage because someone was named mario.
I stil can't believe that some parts of the fanbase defend Sonic 06 when the game is only better than like what 3 or 4 other Sonic games .
One other game franchise that I'd compare to Sonic is Crash Bandicoot,not just because they have similar themes and not just because I would kill for a crossover game between them.
Both Sonic and Crash were made to rival Mario on a console geared to more mature audiences compared to Nintendo's "kiddy crap".
However,after their golden ages,the games have started to gear seemed to gear to children a lot more.Sonic was leaning into being what kids thought was cool at the time like swearing,guns,and weirdly dark stories,while Crash was leaning more into that random kind of humor that was popular in the early 2000s.(Crash Tag Team Racing lets you make burp and fart sounds during the loading screens for crying out loud.).
I probably speaking nonsense,but I think that didn't affect Crash that much unlike Sonic because after Mind Over Mutant,the series had a long drought until his return in Skylanders and the N Sane Trilogy,we then got Crash 4 which takes place in a continuity where those other Crash games never happened and is after the story of Crash 3.Sonic has became synonymous with doing things that seemed like they're trying too hard to be cool(which I'm a sucker for.),while Crash wasn't really held back by that despite having some of that humor in the games after the drought(which I'm also a sucker for.)Maybe it's because unlike Sonic,Crash wasn't really a cool character,he can be cool but he's mainly meant to be like a goofy Looney Tunes character which I think appealed more to General Audiences than Sonic's cool attitude,why do you think characters like Bubsy and Gex died and then came back due to memes and not because they were great games.
Crash still had that fluster from those first 3 PS1 games during his drought while Sonic was still going and had the burden of the many mistakes made since Shadow The Hedgehog.
BUT HEY THAT'S JUST A THEORY,A GAME THEORY!
THANKS FOR WATCHING!
Edit:🍌
Found out that I used the word fluster improperly, so pretend I said something like legacy or something.
crash bandicoot was literally codenamed "sonic's ass game"
Crash 4 is a midquel it isn’t in a separate timeline or continuity, all the 2000s games still happened
OK, those are really good points and that makes a lot of sense on many levels .