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Thanks for the wonderful video, and a huge thanks for not ruining it with crappy background music. I don't know why some people are compelled to add annoying background music throughout their videos.
I have the Weichi 1000 and find it invaluable to checking on the health of my watches, which are almost exclusively mechanical and automatic pieces. One thing I would caution the new user of this machine against is falling into the trap of becoming obsessed with chasing "perfect" flat line readings from their watches. In reality watch beat rates, amplitudes and beat errors vary throughout the day due to watch position, temp, shocks etc. Over the course of a day these factors may even out to offer a watch which, by the day, is very accurate, but by snap measurement, might seem quite a long way out of spec. It's worth noting that COSC themselves certify "Chronometers" by checking these readings at five different positions and three different ambient temperatures. Probably the most significant figure this testing reveals is the "Delta" (deviation in beat rates across the five positions).
I agree. A watch accuracy is the result of errors compensations over the day and the “right” time is an average of the variations that a watch normally has in normal use. Spot measurement are a snap picture and do not worth becoming obsessed with.
I have used an app called 'Watch Accuracy Meter' on an android phone - it seems to work well. I don't use the external mic. I just hold the phone upright, with the phone's mic sitting on the watch back or face. It gives a great trace line, and I have adjusted a couple of watches that now have a very low beat error and are accurate to within a few seconds a day. Thanks for the video.
Sounds good, however, I find significant difference between on edge vs face up. On edge, there is a difference between crown up or crown down (where the watch resides much of the time while wearing it). I see most time grapher tests done with the face up. My watch is face up if my hand is on a table, but crown down while standing, on edge crown forward while reading a book. Each of these likely have a different s/d. My watch winder swings, (it's a feichongho) with the crown up. I suppose you need to live a week or two and check time gain or loss to get an accurate average for your life style.
I've been using it also. Works great. I can even check a watch at a store on the spot. Lots of fun. I used it to regulate an SW 200. Went from +29s/d to +1s/d.
I use it too it works great I've checked it against a timegrapher in a horologists workshop. With my Breitling it even shows the amplitude with the correct lift angle entered into the settings, with my Planet Ocean coaxial 8900 the amplitude/lift angle function doesn't work but it still shows the correct beat error and rate.
Great video and really helpful and informative. The app (which I’ve just bought) now states the best results are from placing the headset mic against the crown of the watch. I’ve done this using blutack to hold the mic secure against the crown. The results are far more reliable and far less susceptible to outside interference. I’d love to see a rematch using this method. I’m really happy with the results of the app and have already regulated some of my watches with great success.
The major difference between the timegrapher and the app is the way in which the microphone is used to pick up sound from the watch. The microphone used by the app was just laid on the watch. Had the microphone been more firmly attached with some form of spring clip and the sensitivity adjusted, I feel the app would have given almost exactly the same information. Certainly from an electronics point of view, the two devices are identical. The only difference is the way in which the microphone is attached to the watch case. If you are good enough mechanically to be adjusting watches, then knocking up a decent clamp to hold a phone microphone securely against a watch case will be a trivial exercise.
💯 spot on. I use a spring clamp to hold a dedicated mic firmly under my watches. I also place both watch & mic in a small soundproof container stuffed with small cloth (my mic is super sensitive so I'm just trying to limit sound pollution). When used correctly, the app is exactly as accurate as a dedicated device. If not more accurater 😅
I was playing around with an Android app, using the same microphone as you show. I found I got a much cleaner trace by sitting the watch, dial down, on top of the microphone. Better still setting the microphone into a slot in a wooden block, basically the firmer the mic was held the cleaner the trace.
I bought a Weishi 1900 this summer to regulate my microbrand watches, and my first try was on a cheap homage based on an NH35. It now runs at -1.5s/day with a near-zero beat error. Glad of the investment! 👍
For the price difference, I say the app is doing a pretty decent job as is. I can see you have the noise cancelling on, which I think might be messing up with the apps "listening" as it uses algorithms to substract what it thinks is "noise" from what it thinks is "sound". In a very quiet environment there won't be any noise to substract, so it may be just messing up with the quality of the sound while trying to do it's thing. What I would do, in addition to providing a silent environment, is to put the watch in a small styrofoam box (a very good sound insulator) and tape the microphone on it firmly, preferably with the back cover open. This will be the ideal "listening" environment for the app and I am sure it will produce much accurate results.
Thank you for this usefull comparative test. More than 160 views in just a few minutes tells how hungry we are about seeing your videos. In this particular one I think the app could be used to have an idea of the daily rate of a watch, but if you try to set the BE using it you may end disadjusting it!
Agustin Aguilar thanks I’m happy you enjoyed this one , took a bit of editing ! Thing with timegraphers is really you need a good wind in the mainspring otherwise you can get false readings. The app has its place and what would be interesting is to do free app vs paid app and see what difference there is.
I'm a year late, having just joined the watch collection gang! Excellent test. I'm involved in electronic engineering and resonance equipment such as that used in CT scanning but for industrial use. You might have gotten some of the anomalies of the amplitude you noticed due to feedback between the mikes and (more likely)interference within the headphones, as even good quality buds are not really of good quality. İf you do the test separately, and don't use the headphones, put the watch close to the phone microphone directly and put the phone and watch on a soft towel or similar to reduce external micro vibrations you might find that the app can give you a more accurate reading. I've just subscribed, looking forward to seeing your other videos. 👍
@@MyRetroWatches shame as it'd be goo to see the improvements using different techniques as well as improvements in the app. Even grab a cheap Android phone and test a few of the free apps. (I've tried a few and they look good but nothing to compare to) But it'll take someone with a good machine to compare with to give meaningful results.
Replying another year further along from this comment. I used a different Android app but used this technique of placing the watch near the phone microphone on a firm but soft surface. No time grapher to compare to but the results were consistent when repeated and against the general known accuracy from long term observation. Thanks for the video Mike!
Mike, the info you shared on how to use and read on the timegrapher has proven to me that I probably should invest in one. Thank you for your time and effort! Your explanation is very clear on how to utilize both instruments. Mr D..U.S.A.
Dennis Allport thank you so much for your comment as ones like these makeshifts effort to make these videos worth it. The Weishi 1000 is a worthy investment. Stay tuned as a how to regulate video will be coming very soon
With the app, try putting the watch into makeshift sound deadening pouch.... something lined with foam. That would help with reverberations and ambient sounds.
Good video. Gave me a lot of data on the data that the Weishi Timegrapher displays. And saved me a few dollars (since I was considering buying an app). Keep up the great videos!
Informative indeed. I have been using a free Android timegraph app which works much like the app you tested in this video. As you pointed out the thing can at least give one an idea of the gain or loss of time and then one can go to trial and error tweaking the timing in the watch. I think I'm going to fork over the money for a Weishi timegrapher instead. I'm not a professional watch repairman but I'm a long retired computer programmer in need of more things with which to tinker. Thanks for the video.
I learned a lot from that video. The difference between the 1000 and the phone app. If I was going to land on the moon in a calculated spot. I would use the 1000, If I wanted to get close, I would use the app :) Subscribed ! because I'm all about comparison testing. Thank you sir
Theirs a free app available for (Android) "watch accuracy meter" which works great once you figure out how to use it properly. Key is to keep the mic hole firmly up against the case back. Doesn't work as well on the crystal. You get a really strong trace with this app and regulating the watch is very effective.
For an app costing about 1/100 of the timegraph machine, I say it was really good. You’ll find betty readings when the back cover of the watch is removed. I did so and the app was really accurate. I do home repairs for my watch collection and it is not reasonable to buy a thousand dollar device where I can get to fairly same readings with 12 dollars!
Okay so I did a follow up video to this which perhaps you should also see. Your costing is off too. The timegrapher cost £120 and the app at the time was near £20 from memory. The app was never going to beat the machine anyway as if you work on watches like I do you could never use the app in real time and make adjustments. Equally you can’t check it in other positions .
Your app is picking up the piano music, which explains the snowstorm-like plots. 😊 But seriously, apps can be very good if you use a proper microphone, or if you can adapt and use the Weishi pickup mic. I use a piezoelectric sensor as the mic and it works very well with my phone app, and it's not sensitive to the background noise.
Great video and I’ll be looking at the app just to try it out but ultimately I’d love the actual timegrapher and learned a lot from this video. Thank you for posting.
great video thank you for taking the time to share!! i really want to learn how to regulate them myself but am hesitant on taking that step. at least now I know with certainty which tool to buy on my journey thank you for that! you have some really cool watches too they were great!!
Sorry Mike, may I also add that the microphone for the app was positioned on the back of the watch, whereas the machine mic was on the face. Surely the back isolates the sound more than the face, which would also give an unrealistic comparison. I’m saying this as a professional audio engineer that loves watches. Thanks again Carl
Fair point but the instructions for using the app are to lay the watch on the microphone from the back . Thing is if you want to regulate watches properly or work on and service watches like I do then a purpose machine is the only way. The app would be too unreliable even with the back off and you would have to make sure you are in a silent enviroment. The TG machine has a piezo microphone and this does not pick up other noises. If you just want to check your wristwatch then the app is okay for this but to use properly then the machine will always win in my opinion anyway. Thanks for watching and for your comment.
Used one in late 1970's it printed dots on paper roll but the actual print out looked just like timegrapher screen it was used at work to check lorry tachograph clocks but used loads for checking and setting watches
I just got the app and after a few tries I got some fairly accurate readings. (I checked with tha app, then timed the watch for 12 hours in the same position) They ended up very close. I ended up tweaking the sensitivity and noise cancelling, AND took the back of the watch off. Then I rubber-banded the watch OVER the mic on a watch pillow. This deadened other sounds except the balance. If the mic was as close to the balance as possible I got nice lines and good readings. Yes harder to use than a real watchgrapher, but still able to get good results. Thanks for the review (months too late...)
Thats great. If you are getting good results from the app then fantastic. for me not so positive. I think its good for checking but for real time use on a service its not practical. I will have a watch on the timegrapher with the back off making adjustments and seeing the results of those adjustments real time. The app serves a purpose but ultimately in my opinion the machine is the only viable solution if you are working on movements.
I have a couple of free apps from the playstore for android phones. I bluetack the phone headset to the watch face listen to the watch and threy work great. The only setting that is missing from the actual timegrapher machine is the amplitude. All other settings are available. 👍😁⌚
This video was so useful by the way!... that app is not so bad actually... I wonder if you could improve its result (by increasing the sensitivity or by opening the case back, etc...)
Jerome Jeronimo thanks for your comments . Regulating vid will be soon I think as it not so hard to film and for once might be a shorter video... Yes perhaps improvement could be made but the sensitivity is just that too much and it gets worse. I have tried before with the caseback off and it didn’t really read any better. If you watch the on screen layer in the video it hardly ever goes red on “sound samples” meaning it’s hearing fine and no background noise interfering . If you see near the start when I am talking about the app while it’s running you see it go read each time I speak..
Thanks for your reply! Actually because of your well made and super friendly video I decided to finally purchase all the remaining tools I will need to restore o(r mess with) some watches... it has been years since I hope to do it... I found your website very good for people like me... I purchased a few items with the links you put. Cheers
Thank you for your video! Just ordered a Weichi 1000. One of the reasons besides of your great review - the phone app that I use doesn't support all beat rates.
Hi thanks for your efforts. Looks like you have not increased the sensitivity of the app microphone. I have used a similar app and it need to be increased to approx 40 /50 to read properly.
Thank you Mike, this really is a useful comparison. My ‘takeaway’ was that the app would be interesting as an indication if your watch might need a service but if you have any plan to do some work inside then the timegrapher is the one to use. I did wonder if a better mic and physical coupling to the watch case would give better results for the app but in the end there is a limit to what is worthwhile given how affordable the Weishi is. Great watches by the way and that Longines is certainly going well for its age!
Morgan David thank you sir. I did do a continuation to this video where I used my lapel mic (only external mic I have) might be worth checking that video out. No app will beat the Weishi as they are not really compatible . The idea was to see just how good or bad and app performs against a known and reliable purpose built machine .
Another great video. Thanks. I know it's an old threat but I only found your YT channel now and I'm just now starting to watch your videos. Have you done a comparison between the Weichi 1000 and a software timegrapher? Thanks
App accuracy is depending on how good of mic and how quiet of room, then choose version 3 option. If room is noisy, the only option that still can work is version 1 which not quite accurate but the easiest to work with. I use food container and close the lip to make it quietest as possible and also wind the watch to max.
Great vid! Thanks for making it. I used the app to get an idea on how accurate my skx009 is after our toddler pulled my watchbox from the nightstand. It fell around 3 feet onto the carpeted floor. The app measure an average of 16.8s/day average timing it for 3 minutes. Problem is that I don't have a base measurement from the app before it fell. In addition I find it strange that when I measure it manually using the computer date time, in a 24h period, I got +42s/day (24h) ??? I'll manually measurement again to see if I made a mistake.
If you had a phone with a 4 pin jack (or sacrifice a pair of wired buds) I imagine you could use a piezo disk between the bottom two sleeve pins (or replace the mic with the disk). The piezo would act as a vibration transducer so ambient noises wouldnt affect it, though trucks, and kids running around might... It might also need a little pre-amp to boost the raw disk output. I dont need one on my LG G6 when I use disks as a contact mic for other projects (might try it for this if I find an android app for free to try, otherwise im just going to program a spare arduino, but Im also timing a long case clock movement so... yeah lol), but if the impedances are too far out little noises will be lost. That being said they can be ridiculously amazing at picking up strange mechanical sounds. Plus, with a pre-amp you could probably incorporate a notch filter so just the ticking makes it through....but thats more voodoo than I care to wrap my brain around for a simple project ATM.... Anyhoo, good stuff, mate!
It would be interesting to connect a contact microphone to the smartphone. That would probably deliver fantastic results and could still be a lot cheaper
This imo was simply a test of the microphones, not the timegraphers. The software math to churn the numbers is simple, the key is hearing the watch. BTW, loved the Satie!
Well yes but equally you will never been the equipment with an app because you can’t work on the watch to regulate on the app whereas the machine I can put it in the holder and make as much background noise as I like. The app is only good if you have no intention to work on a watch and regulate in real time.
I have one question ... how well calibrated is the Weishi? I don't know how good its performance is, especially as it compares to the 10x more expensive swiss timing alternatives.
As a novice who's recently gotten interested in this, I found an app called Clock Tuner (it's free) for Android that does this. I was able to get a pretty good reading from just the mic on the phone (Pixel 3 XL) in a dead silent environment by setting the watch directly over the mic on the phone. I have no way to tell if the reading was accurate or not because I don't have other tools, but it appeared to be working. I let it read my Tevise T801A for a few minutes and it came out with +35s a day. Again, no way to verify the results, but judging by the performance of the watch since I've owned it, it seemed to be reasonably close.
Chew Magna the rule of thumb to look for is nice parallel lines first of all. This means there is no issue one side of the balance (tick or tock) then the amplitude and s/d are important. It’s all just to see the health. The apps are good for a quick check and to ascertain if your watch is running poor, if it is then it’s telling you to get it serviced.
Really enjoyed your vid, experiment and take on it. Can’t really gauge accuracy with only the two instruments. Just to be a contrarian, I think the app is the more accurate. Why not?
Thanks for the comparison. However, don't you get an unreliable result on the app because the smartphone's microphone picks up the timegrapher's audible signal?
I’ve got problems with nh35 movement watch I just bought so hoping the app might guide me with some information I can’t buy the timegrapher it’s to expensive
My Orient Kamasu has an F6922 movement, and when i wear it, it gains about +120 seconds a day, but if i dont wear it it loses -60 seconds a day. I have tried regulating it, but it seems that the ammount of barrel wound is what affects its speed. Why is this? Could it be that it has Beat Error? Thank you in advance
Glad I found your video. I recently purchased the same app and installed it on my iPad. I purchased an iPad mic and built a housing for it to keep out external noise. Really happy with the results. Don’t think I need to buy a pro machine. Thanks for sharing this.
The problem with the app is having to be totally quiet. To make any adjustments you will have to do away from the app and then setup again to see your result. On the TG you can make adjustments on the fly and see instantly the result of your actions. So it depends on what you are doing. Just checking your watches then its fine. To work on them I could not recommend.
'Watch accuracy meter' app works well. The trend display is useful. Hold the phone mic. against the crystal. Also remove nearby electromagnetic interference ie. tablet....
I just use my phone mic/app and place my watch on the table next to it - had some great results (adjusting beat error/rate) - small manual blower to clean dust away.
I plan to put a watch and a microphone into a cardboard box and close it up. Then, I'll connect the microphone output to one of my oscilloscopes. There, I can look at the tick and the tock and compare the time duration of the two. It should also be possible to see the time required for one tick-tock cycle or for ten, even. I only need to know if all watches complete the same number of cycles in a day and what that number is. Then, I can calculate what the duration of a cycle should be and compare it to what I see on the oscilloscope. (You might have guessed by now that I'm an old electronics technician, not a watchmaker. But I love to hear the old Westclox, dollar, wind-up pocket watches tick.) What do you think? Will it work? I think so, as long as the oscilloscope is calibrated correctly. For example if one tick-tock = 1second, then one tick or one tock should measure 500 milliseconds on the scope. I should be able to measure them both on my screen to see if they are equal. Amplitude can be measured closely enough by observing the movement of a mark on the balance wheel.
thx a lot for your effort here. in my opinion the apps could do a little better than in your video. i am using the watch accuracy app and just putting the watch to phones mic. works for me. just thinking of buying a weishi to get more accuracy. but for private collectors a zero budget app is a good start. and a good estimation if an old watch needs a service or a new watch some correction. addditional double check with the smart phone time after a full week makes it a good thing 😊
Excellent app for home user. A normal person just want to adjust daily precioso and for further maintenance a watchmaker is the best option. So for basic reading and adjustment is ok . And good enough.
I wonder if you could somehow connect the Timegrapher microphone to the smartphone. That way you could exactly compare the software... Because if the software in the app is good, making a metal microphone clamp with a jack connector would be very cheap (e.g. for China manufacturers). Maybe something similar to a piezo pickup for acustic guitars, they literally cost like 2$.
The plug on the TG is a 4 pin plug from memory. To go to all that trouble you might as well buy a TG anyway. Not sure you can buy the mic and holder as a single unit. If you want to service your own watches as I do you can only really use a machine.
This is an excellent comparison video between the 2 different processes. I only have 1 question. Microphones, like speakers have a magnet. Are there any concerns of magnetizing the movement by placing the magnet/microphone so close to the watch?
Good question but I dont really think it would have much effect. the Machine has a piezo microphone so no magnet there and as for a phone mic I would doubt that would have enough power to transfer to the watch itself. Still this is an interesting question.
With the watch app use a powered condenser microphone the kind with a suction cup that was used to pick up phone calls use a splitter on the headphones and plug that mic in and stick it on the back works great. Not a timegrapher but it something.
With the addition of controls, memory, and software the Timegrapher could have the functionality of the app. But you can buy ten of the apps, and give them away to friends, for the price of a single Timegrapher. I suspect the Timegrapher will have to up its game and lower its cost if it waants to retain market share. There is another desktop device (can't recall the name) which offers more than the Timegrapher but at a much higher cost.
Not at all. Want to work on watches movements then the app is totally useless to regulate properly. The Timegrapher has been around for much longer period than the app. App is good for people who collect watches but don’t work on them but not practical for and watch repair.
I would like a timegrapher but can't justify the cost, being just an enthusiast. I use the Tickoprint free app, and whilst I have to take the back off of the watch, it's pretty accurate.
I just recently bought an automatic watch (Invictus with Seiko movement) that costed buttons so I can't justify an expensive machine to check its accuracy. The app looks pretty accurate to me.. if i was to check the watch with the app and compare it to a days loss or gain then I could (theoretically) compare and the results and go from there. Now adjusting/tuning would be a different matter.. the app (if trusted/verified against a 24hr period) could be good enough to make an initial adjustment and then I would compare results over another 24hrs? ... just trying not to get sucked into a whole new hobby/obsession :D
Hello and thank you so much for this video and your others as well! Do you know that it is the 'app' version that is incorrect? Or is this only an assumption that the timeograph will be accurate and the app incorrect? I understand the more expensive instrument will probably be better... but do we know this as a fact? Perhaps neither are correct? Sorry just my need to be certain on such experiments Cheers Dan
The machine is widely used by hobbyists an pro's alike and is its using a piezo mic it can hear better and the algorithm can plot the graph. The machine does not always get it right depending on what is going on in the movement as it cant always determine if the beat is very irregular. All I can say is the app would be okay to check your watches at home in a silent room to determine if its running ok or needs a service. To work on watches as I do you could not practically use an app to regulate a watch insitu.
Thanks for the vid, I'm just getting into tinkering with watches and hoped there was a cheaper alternative. I will say that mic / headphone combo might be a major fault. Most of those mics are noise activated and mute when you need to hear, so there could be some delay to it activating or depending on sensitivity, switching on an off and messing up the reading. Still seems like a entry level option, just might purchase a dedicated external mic, like one would use for video recording. Thanks agian
@@MyRetroWatches I will check it out. Glad I found your video on this, since I'm just getting into this, I couldn't justify buying a real one, at least just yet. Thanks agian
with the app & mic. I have a Pelican case of medium size with pull & Pluck foam Lined. I could see resting the phone and watch in the case for testing. As to not influence or interfere with Data,
The problem you have with any other method is that if you were actually working on a watch the app is not practical. You cannot move the stud or regulator whilst the microphone was in place and get a real time result. The app would only ever be useful for someone to try to see roughly how good their watch is running. In any situation the timegrapher is the clear winner
hello i like your work Could you please make a video using the weishi in a floor pendulum clock?Since I want to buy a weishi machine But I don't know if it will help me to regulate this type of clocks Best regards
Interesting video. I use app. I am running it on iPhone se that has mini jack with decent microphone. On top of that I am putting watch with this mic to foam padded box. This is solving all problems visible here 😉
That’s good to here. From an inspection point of view apps will work but if you want to work on watches and adjust the stud & regulator on the fly then the timegrapher is the only viable solution . Thanks for your input and thanks for watching.
@@MyRetroWatches yes, you are correct ! Any serious use is beyond an app. But preliminary diagnosis if movement needs professional work is within the reach for this setup 😉 And by the way - thank you for preparing this video. I know it cost considerable amount of time to do and there is valuable learning in it 👍
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Thanks for the wonderful video, and a huge thanks for not ruining it with crappy background music.
I don't know why some people are compelled to add annoying background music throughout their videos.
I have the Weichi 1000 and find it invaluable to checking on the health of my watches, which are almost exclusively mechanical and automatic pieces. One thing I would caution the new user of this machine against is falling into the trap of becoming obsessed with chasing "perfect" flat line readings from their watches. In reality watch beat rates, amplitudes and beat errors vary throughout the day due to watch position, temp, shocks etc. Over the course of a day these factors may even out to offer a watch which, by the day, is very accurate, but by snap measurement, might seem quite a long way out of spec. It's worth noting that COSC themselves certify "Chronometers" by checking these readings at five different positions and three different ambient temperatures. Probably the most significant figure this testing reveals is the "Delta" (deviation in beat rates across the five positions).
Good advice sir.
I agree. A watch accuracy is the result of errors compensations over the day and the “right” time is an average of the variations that a watch normally has in normal use. Spot measurement are a snap picture and do not worth becoming obsessed with.
I have used an app called 'Watch Accuracy Meter' on an android phone - it seems to work well. I don't use the external mic. I just hold the phone upright, with the phone's mic sitting on the watch back or face. It gives a great trace line, and I have adjusted a couple of watches that now have a very low beat error and are accurate to within a few seconds a day.
Thanks for the video.
Sounds good, however, I find significant difference between on edge vs face up. On edge, there is a difference between crown up or crown down (where the watch resides much of the time while wearing it). I see most time grapher tests done with the face up. My watch is face up if my hand is on a table, but crown down while standing, on edge crown forward while reading a book. Each of these likely have a different s/d. My watch winder swings, (it's a feichongho) with the crown up. I suppose you need to live a week or two and check time gain or loss to get an accurate average for your life style.
Yes, it takes a number of adjustments to get a good 'average position' setting to get a good 'on wrist' accuracy. But the results have been good. 👍
I've been using it also. Works great. I can even check a watch at a store on the spot. Lots of fun. I used it to regulate an SW 200. Went from +29s/d to +1s/d.
I use too and goes nices 😅
I use it too it works great I've checked it against a timegrapher in a horologists workshop. With my Breitling it even shows the amplitude with the correct lift angle entered into the settings, with my Planet Ocean coaxial 8900 the amplitude/lift angle function doesn't work but it still shows the correct beat error and rate.
This is an excellent introduction to what a time Grapher is, and what it does. Many thanks 😀
Great video and really helpful and informative. The app (which I’ve just bought) now states the best results are from placing the headset mic against the crown of the watch. I’ve done this using blutack to hold the mic secure against the crown. The results are far more reliable and far less susceptible to outside interference. I’d love to see a rematch using this method. I’m really happy with the results of the app and have already regulated some of my watches with great success.
The major difference between the timegrapher and the app is the way in which the microphone is used to pick up sound from the watch. The microphone used by the app was just laid on the watch. Had the microphone been more firmly attached with some form of spring clip and the sensitivity adjusted, I feel the app would have given almost exactly the same information. Certainly from an electronics point of view, the two devices are identical. The only difference is the way in which the microphone is attached to the watch case. If you are good enough mechanically to be adjusting watches, then knocking up a decent clamp to hold a phone microphone securely against a watch case will be a trivial exercise.
💯 spot on. I use a spring clamp to hold a dedicated mic firmly under my watches. I also place both watch & mic in a small soundproof container stuffed with small cloth (my mic is super sensitive so I'm just trying to limit sound pollution).
When used correctly, the app is exactly as accurate as a dedicated device. If not more accurater 😅
I was playing around with an Android app, using the same microphone as you show. I found I got a much cleaner trace by sitting the watch, dial down, on top of the microphone. Better still setting the microphone into a slot in a wooden block, basically the firmer the mic was held the cleaner the trace.
This is the most relaxating video of my life.
I bought a Weishi 1900 this summer to regulate my microbrand watches, and my first try was on a cheap homage based on an NH35. It now runs at -1.5s/day with a near-zero beat error. Glad of the investment! 👍
Very nice!
For the price difference, I say the app is doing a pretty decent job as is. I can see you have the noise cancelling on, which I think might be messing up with the apps "listening" as it uses algorithms to substract what it thinks is "noise" from what it thinks is "sound". In a very quiet environment there won't be any noise to substract, so it may be just messing up with the quality of the sound while trying to do it's thing. What I would do, in addition to providing a silent environment, is to put the watch in a small styrofoam box (a very good sound insulator) and tape the microphone on it firmly, preferably with the back cover open. This will be the ideal "listening" environment for the app and I am sure it will produce much accurate results.
There is always mic noise from the preamp even in a soundless environment
I love how you chose a piano piece with a fluctuating tempo.
Thank you for this usefull comparative test. More than 160 views in just a few minutes tells how hungry we are about seeing your videos. In this particular one I think the app could be used to have an idea of the daily rate of a watch, but if you try to set the BE using it you may end disadjusting it!
Agustin Aguilar thanks I’m happy you enjoyed this one , took a bit of editing !
Thing with timegraphers is really you need a good wind in the mainspring otherwise you can get false readings.
The app has its place and what would be interesting is to do free app vs paid app and see what difference there is.
I'm a year late, having just joined the watch collection gang! Excellent test. I'm involved in electronic engineering and resonance equipment such as that used in CT scanning but for industrial use. You might have gotten some of the anomalies of the amplitude you noticed due to feedback between the mikes and (more likely)interference within the headphones, as even good quality buds are not really of good quality. İf you do the test separately, and don't use the headphones, put the watch close to the phone microphone directly and put the phone and watch on a soft towel or similar to reduce external micro vibrations you might find that the app can give you a more accurate reading. I've just subscribed, looking forward to seeing your other videos. 👍
Thank you for your insight. I would hope others will read your comment. For me as I have a timegrapher machine the app will never be used.
@@MyRetroWatches shame as it'd be goo to see the improvements using different techniques as well as improvements in the app.
Even grab a cheap Android phone and test a few of the free apps.
(I've tried a few and they look good but nothing to compare to)
But it'll take someone with a good machine to compare with to give meaningful results.
Replying another year further along from this comment. I used a different Android app but used this technique of placing the watch near the phone microphone on a firm but soft surface. No time grapher to compare to but the results were consistent when repeated and against the general known accuracy from long term observation.
Thanks for the video Mike!
This video and the app just saved me $168.00. Thank you!
Mike, the info you shared on how to use and read on the timegrapher has proven to me that I probably should invest in one. Thank you for your time and effort! Your explanation is very clear on how to utilize both instruments. Mr D..U.S.A.
Dennis Allport thank you so much for your comment as ones like these makeshifts effort to make these videos worth it.
The Weishi 1000 is a worthy investment.
Stay tuned as a how to regulate video will be coming very soon
With the app, try putting the watch into makeshift sound deadening pouch.... something lined with foam. That would help with reverberations and ambient sounds.
In addition, A dedicated lavalier microphone would work well.
You'd be better off putting it in a small sealed box of some kind.
Good video. Gave me a lot of data on the data that the Weishi Timegrapher displays. And saved me a few dollars (since I was considering buying an app). Keep up the great videos!
Apples to pears, never heard that before. It's always been apples to oranges 😁
Thanks for the video
Informative indeed. I have been using a free Android timegraph app which works much like the app you tested in this video. As you pointed out the thing can at least give one an idea of the gain or loss of time and then one can go to trial and error tweaking the timing in the watch. I think I'm going to fork over the money for a Weishi timegrapher instead. I'm not a professional watch repairman but I'm a long retired computer programmer in need of more things with which to tinker. Thanks for the video.
I learned a lot from that video. The difference between the 1000 and the phone app. If I was going to land on the moon in a calculated spot. I would use the 1000, If I wanted to get close, I would use the app :) Subscribed ! because I'm all about comparison testing. Thank you sir
Theirs a free app available for (Android) "watch accuracy meter" which works great once you figure out how to use it properly. Key is to keep the mic hole firmly up against the case back. Doesn't work as well on the crystal. You get a really strong trace with this app and regulating the watch is very effective.
Thanks for the video and your time mate.
The phone-based timegrapher didn't just cost £12.99 because it's using the hardware of the phone and that cost several hundred quid. Just saying :-)
For an app costing about 1/100 of the timegraph machine, I say it was really good.
You’ll find betty readings when the back cover of the watch is removed. I did so and the app was really accurate.
I do home repairs for my watch collection and it is not reasonable to buy a thousand dollar device where I can get to fairly same readings with 12 dollars!
Okay so I did a follow up video to this which perhaps you should also see.
Your costing is off too. The timegrapher cost £120 and the app at the time was near £20 from memory.
The app was never going to beat the machine anyway as if you work on watches like I do you could never use the app in real time and make adjustments. Equally you can’t check it in other positions .
Your app is picking up the piano music, which explains the snowstorm-like plots. 😊
But seriously, apps can be very good if you use a proper microphone, or if you can adapt and use the Weishi pickup mic. I use a piezoelectric sensor as the mic and it works very well with my phone app, and it's not sensitive to the background noise.
I'll check it out!
Great video and I’ll be looking at the app just to try it out but ultimately I’d love the actual timegrapher and learned a lot from this video. Thank you for posting.
great video thank you for taking the time to share!! i really want to learn how to regulate them myself but am hesitant on taking that step. at least now I know with certainty which tool to buy on my journey thank you for that! you have some really cool watches too they were great!!
Sorry Mike, may I also add that the microphone for the app was positioned on the back of the watch, whereas the machine mic was on the face. Surely the back isolates the sound more than the face, which would also give an unrealistic comparison. I’m saying this as a professional audio engineer that loves watches.
Thanks again
Carl
Fair point but the instructions for using the app are to lay the watch on the microphone from the back . Thing is if you want to regulate watches properly or work on and service watches like I do then a purpose machine is the only way. The app would be too unreliable even with the back off and you would have to make sure you are in a silent enviroment. The TG machine has a piezo microphone and this does not pick up other noises. If you just want to check your wristwatch then the app is okay for this but to use properly then the machine will always win in my opinion anyway. Thanks for watching and for your comment.
Used one in late 1970's it printed dots on paper roll but the actual print out looked just like timegrapher screen it was used at work to check lorry tachograph clocks but used loads for checking and setting watches
I just got the app and after a few tries I got some fairly accurate readings. (I checked with tha app, then timed the watch for 12 hours in the same position) They ended up very close. I ended up tweaking the sensitivity and noise cancelling, AND took the back of the watch off. Then I rubber-banded the watch OVER the mic on a watch pillow. This deadened other sounds except the balance. If the mic was as close to the balance as possible I got nice lines and good readings. Yes harder to use than a real watchgrapher, but still able to get good results. Thanks for the review (months too late...)
Thats great. If you are getting good results from the app then fantastic. for me not so positive. I think its good for checking but for real time use on a service its not practical. I will have a watch on the timegrapher with the back off making adjustments and seeing the results of those adjustments real time. The app serves a purpose but ultimately in my opinion the machine is the only viable solution if you are working on movements.
Thanks a million, it was helpful ,especially your intestng app
Noticed a video the other night.the shirt you were wearing said "a watchmakers life.loved it
Shameless plug. It is available in my merch store in YT
I wrap the watch and app microphone in a towel. It helps no end.
I have a couple of free apps from the playstore for android phones. I bluetack the phone headset to the watch face listen to the watch and threy work great. The only setting that is missing from the actual timegrapher machine is the amplitude. All other settings are available. 👍😁⌚
I look forward to seeing your next video on how to regulate a watch ! Thank again
This video was so useful by the way!... that app is not so bad actually... I wonder if you could improve its result (by increasing the sensitivity or by opening the case back, etc...)
Jerome Jeronimo thanks for your comments . Regulating vid will be soon I think as it not so hard to film and for once might be a shorter video...
Yes perhaps improvement could be made but the sensitivity is just that too much and it gets worse. I have tried before with the caseback off and it didn’t really read any better.
If you watch the on screen layer in the video it hardly ever goes red on “sound samples” meaning it’s hearing fine and no background noise interfering .
If you see near the start when I am talking about the app while it’s running you see it go read each time I speak..
Thanks for your reply!
Actually because of your well made and super friendly video I decided to finally purchase all the remaining tools I will need to restore o(r mess with) some watches... it has been years since I hope to do it... I found your website very good for people like me... I purchased a few items with the links you put. Cheers
Thank you for your video! Just ordered a Weichi 1000. One of the reasons besides of your great review - the phone app that I use doesn't support all beat rates.
Thanks, you wont regret it. The are a great tool and well worth the money.
Thanks Mike .Hay never say you talk to much.. I like to listen and learn and if your not talking I am not learning .
Thank you.
Hi thanks for your efforts. Looks like you have not increased the sensitivity of the app microphone. I have used a similar app and it need to be increased to approx 40 /50 to read properly.
Parabéns pelo vídeo, especialmente o ensaio entre os dados do timegrah e aap.
Thank you so much for sharing. I feel much inspired and have started a list of tools based on your advice. Books first I think!
Best way to learn is by doing!
Thank you Mike, this really is a useful comparison. My ‘takeaway’ was that the app would be interesting as an indication if your watch might need a service but if you have any plan to do some work inside then the timegrapher is the one to use. I did wonder if a better mic and physical coupling to the watch case would give better results for the app but in the end there is a limit to what is worthwhile given how affordable the Weishi is. Great watches by the way and that Longines is certainly going well for its age!
Morgan David thank you sir. I did do a continuation to this video where I used my lapel mic (only external mic I have) might be worth checking that video out.
No app will beat the Weishi as they are not really compatible . The idea was to see just how good or bad and app performs against a known and reliable purpose built machine .
Another great video. Thanks.
I know it's an old threat but I only found your YT channel now and I'm just now starting to watch your videos.
Have you done a comparison between the Weichi 1000 and a software timegrapher?
Thanks
No sorry.
Obrigado pelas importantes informações!
Já me inscrevi no seu canal!
Estarei acompanhando aqui de Recife-PE- Brasil.
Grande abraço!!!
Strap mic to watch, put combo in box with dampening material, put box to another box with more dampening material, isolate box from table surface etc.
App accuracy is depending on how good of mic and how quiet of room, then choose version 3 option. If room is noisy, the only option that still can work is version 1 which not quite accurate but the easiest to work with. I use food container and close the lip to make it quietest as possible and also wind the watch to max.
Hi Mike. Thanks so much for your high quality post. Informative and you are very well spoken. Interesting collection too. Thanks.
Marcus Mcewan thank you 🙏🏻
Great vid! Thanks for making it. I used the app to get an idea on how accurate my skx009 is after our toddler pulled my watchbox from the nightstand. It fell around 3 feet onto the carpeted floor. The app measure an average of 16.8s/day average timing it for 3 minutes. Problem is that I don't have a base measurement from the app before it fell. In addition I find it strange that when I measure it manually using the computer date time, in a 24h period, I got +42s/day (24h) ??? I'll manually measurement again to see if I made a mistake.
Metal on the app microphone could probably threw it off since most microphones use metal magnetically
If you had a phone with a 4 pin jack (or sacrifice a pair of wired buds) I imagine you could use a piezo disk between the bottom two sleeve pins (or replace the mic with the disk). The piezo would act as a vibration transducer so ambient noises wouldnt affect it, though trucks, and kids running around might... It might also need a little pre-amp to boost the raw disk output. I dont need one on my LG G6 when I use disks as a contact mic for other projects (might try it for this if I find an android app for free to try, otherwise im just going to program a spare arduino, but Im also timing a long case clock movement so... yeah lol), but if the impedances are too far out little noises will be lost. That being said they can be ridiculously amazing at picking up strange mechanical sounds. Plus, with a pre-amp you could probably incorporate a notch filter so just the ticking makes it through....but thats more voodoo than I care to wrap my brain around for a simple project ATM....
Anyhoo, good stuff, mate!
Great video and info keep up the great job
I’m going with the Timegrapher. 👍🏼
Great video. I was wondering this exact thing not long ago.
It would be interesting to connect a contact microphone to the smartphone. That would probably deliver fantastic results and could still be a lot cheaper
This imo was simply a test of the microphones, not the timegraphers. The software math to churn the numbers is simple, the key is hearing the watch.
BTW, loved the Satie!
Well yes but equally you will never been the equipment with an app because you can’t work on the watch to regulate on the app whereas the machine I can put it in the holder and make as much background noise as I like.
The app is only good if you have no intention to work on a watch and regulate in real time.
Ps I did do a follow on video with a different mic.
Omg. Hard to see with phone not fixed and moved frecuently. Any how, a good explanation for a beginer as myself. Tks
I have one question ... how well calibrated is the Weishi? I don't know how good its performance is, especially as it compares to the 10x more expensive swiss timing alternatives.
If the app measures consistently, I think it’s a decent tool to regulate your own watch.
Thanks Mike. Stumbled on your channel and I’ll be subscribing for sure.
Thank you
should go over the Help option on the phone app. Once dialed in IIt can be impressive.
As a novice who's recently gotten interested in this, I found an app called Clock Tuner (it's free) for Android that does this. I was able to get a pretty good reading from just the mic on the phone (Pixel 3 XL) in a dead silent environment by setting the watch directly over the mic on the phone. I have no way to tell if the reading was accurate or not because I don't have other tools, but it appeared to be working. I let it read my Tevise T801A for a few minutes and it came out with +35s a day. Again, no way to verify the results, but judging by the performance of the watch since I've owned it, it seemed to be reasonably close.
Chew Magna the rule of thumb to look for is nice parallel lines first of all. This means there is no issue one side of the balance (tick or tock) then the amplitude and s/d are important. It’s all just to see the health. The apps are good for a quick check and to ascertain if your watch is running poor, if it is then it’s telling you to get it serviced.
Set your watch exactly to time.gov check how many seconds fast or slow it is is running 24 hrs later.
Believe me, there is no way you can regulate a watch with the app.
Really enjoyed your vid, experiment and take on it. Can’t really gauge accuracy with only the two instruments. Just to be a contrarian, I think the app is the more accurate. Why not?
I dont know about the rest, but the Swaro's range way further than they advertise they can. Nice bonus.
Seriously thank for your introduced app, it worth for me
Gracias por este y otros videos tutoriales, aprendo en cada uno de ellos, a seguir adelante, un abrazo
thank you Sir.
Thanks for the comparison. However, don't you get an unreliable result on the app because the smartphone's microphone picks up the timegrapher's audible signal?
I’ve got problems with nh35 movement watch I just bought so hoping the app might guide me with some information I can’t buy the timegrapher it’s to expensive
My Orient Kamasu has an F6922 movement, and when i wear it, it gains about +120 seconds a day, but if i dont wear it it loses -60 seconds a day. I have tried regulating it, but it seems that the ammount of barrel wound is what affects its speed. Why is this? Could it be that it has Beat Error? Thank you in advance
Thank you dear sir very helpful video I am from India
Glad I found your video. I recently purchased the same app and installed it on my iPad. I purchased an iPad mic and built a housing for it to keep out external noise. Really happy with the results. Don’t think I need to buy a pro machine. Thanks for sharing this.
The problem with the app is having to be totally quiet. To make any adjustments you will have to do away from the app and then setup again to see your result. On the TG you can make adjustments on the fly and see instantly the result of your actions. So it depends on what you are doing. Just checking your watches then its fine. To work on them I could not recommend.
'Watch accuracy meter' app works well. The trend display is useful. Hold the phone mic. against the crystal. Also remove nearby electromagnetic interference ie. tablet....
I just use my phone mic/app and place my watch on the table next to it - had some great results (adjusting beat error/rate) - small manual blower to clean dust away.
I plan to put a watch and a microphone into a cardboard box and close it up. Then, I'll connect the microphone output to one of my oscilloscopes. There, I can look at the tick and the tock and compare the time duration of the two. It should also be possible to see the time required for one tick-tock cycle or for ten, even. I only need to know if all watches complete the same number of cycles in a day and what that number is. Then, I can calculate what the duration of a cycle should be and compare it to what I see on the oscilloscope. (You might have guessed by now that I'm an old electronics technician, not a watchmaker. But I love to hear the old Westclox, dollar, wind-up pocket watches tick.)
What do you think? Will it work? I think so, as long as the oscilloscope is calibrated correctly. For example if one tick-tock = 1second, then one tick or one tock should measure 500 milliseconds on the scope. I should be able to measure them both on my screen to see if they are equal. Amplitude can be measured closely enough by observing the movement of a mark on the balance wheel.
Hi.
I have installed this app on my phone about 2 months ago and it is working well, but sometimes on some watches.
Morteza Saremi I’m glad it works for you. I think it’s okay for a quick check only.
thx a lot for your effort here. in my opinion the apps could do a little better than in your video.
i am using the watch accuracy app and just putting the watch to phones mic.
works for me. just thinking of buying a weishi to get more accuracy.
but for private collectors a zero budget app is a good start.
and a good estimation if an old watch needs a service or a new watch some correction.
addditional double check with the smart phone time after a full week makes it a good thing 😊
Excellent app for home user. A normal person just want to adjust daily precioso and for further maintenance a watchmaker is the best option. So for basic reading and adjustment is ok . And good enough.
Just curious, will the watch be magnetised by the mic since it’s so closely placed on the movement?
Watches are so interesting. I like your videos.
I wonder if the block of steel may interact with the magnet in the little microphone.
I use "clock tuner" app, cost about 3.5 usd... Work fine to adjust the s/d deviation and beat error. Just need to compare it with real timegraph.
Great video
With the phone app I got my watch running @ 4+ seconds within a 24hr time which I think it's great!
I wonder if you could somehow connect the Timegrapher microphone to the smartphone. That way you could exactly compare the software... Because if the software in the app is good, making a metal microphone clamp with a jack connector would be very cheap (e.g. for China manufacturers). Maybe something similar to a piezo pickup for acustic guitars, they literally cost like 2$.
The plug on the TG is a 4 pin plug from memory. To go to all that trouble you might as well buy a TG anyway. Not sure you can buy the mic and holder as a single unit.
If you want to service your own watches as I do you can only really use a machine.
This is an excellent comparison video between the 2 different processes. I only have 1 question. Microphones, like speakers have a magnet. Are there any concerns of magnetizing the movement by placing the magnet/microphone so close to the watch?
Good question but I dont really think it would have much effect. the Machine has a piezo microphone so no magnet there and as for a phone mic I would doubt that would have enough power to transfer to the watch itself. Still this is an interesting question.
With the watch app use a powered condenser microphone the kind with a suction cup that was used to pick up phone calls use a splitter on the headphones and plug that mic in and stick it on the back works great. Not a timegrapher but it something.
Weather Humidity temperature etc could effect changes in the working of a watch. Just as in an instrument like stringed and Wind instruments
Variations by Blood Sweat and Tears is another version of the song. Good choice Sir. It had been awhile since I heard that song.
What would be the test results if you tested without the back lid placing the mic directly on the movement?
With the addition of controls, memory, and software the Timegrapher could have the functionality of the app. But you can buy ten of the apps, and give them away to friends, for the price of a single Timegrapher. I suspect the Timegrapher will have to up its game and lower its cost if it waants to retain market share. There is another desktop device (can't recall the name) which offers more than the Timegrapher but at a much higher cost.
Not at all. Want to work on watches movements then the app is totally useless to regulate properly.
The Timegrapher has been around for much longer period than the app. App is good for people who collect watches but don’t work on them but not practical for and watch repair.
Cool Comparison...
I would like a timegrapher but can't justify the cost, being just an enthusiast. I use the Tickoprint free app, and whilst I have to take the back off of the watch, it's pretty accurate.
Maybe the app wil work better with the case opened to get a better sound from the clock.
I just recently bought an automatic watch (Invictus with Seiko movement) that costed buttons so I can't justify an expensive machine to check its accuracy. The app looks pretty accurate to me.. if i was to check the watch with the app and compare it to a days loss or gain then I could (theoretically) compare and the results and go from there.
Now adjusting/tuning would be a different matter.. the app (if trusted/verified against a 24hr period) could be good enough to make an initial adjustment and then I would compare results over another 24hrs?
... just trying not to get sucked into a whole new hobby/obsession :D
Hello and thank you so much for this video and your others as well!
Do you know that it is the 'app' version that is incorrect? Or is this only an assumption that the timeograph will be accurate and the app incorrect?
I understand the more expensive instrument will probably be better... but do we know this as a fact? Perhaps neither are correct? Sorry just my need to be certain on such experiments
Cheers
Dan
The machine is widely used by hobbyists an pro's alike and is its using a piezo mic it can hear better and the algorithm can plot the graph. The machine does not always get it right depending on what is going on in the movement as it cant always determine if the beat is very irregular. All I can say is the app would be okay to check your watches at home in a silent room to determine if its running ok or needs a service. To work on watches as I do you could not practically use an app to regulate a watch insitu.
‘Commission’ would sound much better than ‘kick-back’. 😎
Thanks for the vid, I'm just getting into tinkering with watches and hoped there was a cheaper alternative. I will say that mic / headphone combo might be a major fault. Most of those mics are noise activated and mute when you need to hear, so there could be some delay to it activating or depending on sensitivity, switching on an off and messing up the reading. Still seems like a entry level option, just might purchase a dedicated external mic, like one would use for video recording. Thanks agian
Hi, I did a follow on video using a different mic. you can see it here. ruclips.net/video/L7r794UAgpU/видео.html&ab_channel=MyRetroWatches
@@MyRetroWatches I will check it out. Glad I found your video on this, since I'm just getting into this, I couldn't justify buying a real one, at least just yet. Thanks agian
with the app & mic. I have a Pelican case of medium size with pull & Pluck foam Lined. I could see resting the phone and watch in the case for testing. As to not influence or interfere with Data,
The problem you have with any other method is that if you were actually working on a watch the app is not practical.
You cannot move the stud or regulator whilst the microphone was in place and get a real time result.
The app would only ever be useful for someone to try to see roughly how good their watch is running.
In any situation the timegrapher is the clear winner
Make sure you demagnetize the watch before testing
hello i like your work Could you please make a video using the weishi in a floor pendulum clock?Since I want to buy a weishi machine But I don't know if it will help me to regulate this type of clocks Best regards
I don’t own any clocks sorry. I’m sure if you ask in online forums people will be able to help
Interesting video. I use app. I am running it on iPhone se that has mini jack with decent microphone. On top of that I am putting watch with this mic to foam padded box. This is solving all problems visible here 😉
That’s good to here. From an inspection point of view apps will work but if you want to work on watches and adjust the stud & regulator on the fly then the timegrapher is the only viable solution .
Thanks for your input and thanks for watching.
@@MyRetroWatches yes, you are correct ! Any serious use is beyond an app. But preliminary diagnosis if movement needs professional work is within the reach for this setup 😉
And by the way - thank you for preparing this video. I know it cost considerable amount of time to do and there is valuable learning in it 👍
@@mkw2555 thank you! This video was a challenge to film but fun. I also did a follow up video too using a different mic.