I am fairly new to Factorio .. (250+- hours ) And I built the most amazing Spaghetti base ... And it worked so well... Until I saw how simple this Bus base was.... I couldn't for the life of me get train signals to work... So I hated trains.... But this evening was the first time I had 3 trains running on the same tracks . And I am so happy ! Thank you Nilaus ! You are a legend! Keep it up.
I had no idea how circuits worked before this video, but now i have a fair idea. Thanks for all the hard work you put in to these videos Nilaus, my brain defintely got a bit more wrinkled after this one!
@@RoberthMarkstrom PAstebin and me are having issues, blueprint code is on here: www.reddit.com/user/TattleTayles/comments/nh9jp0/factorio_outpost_logic/
Gotta admit, that as a automation developer in my work life, translation stuff like this into the gaming world (Factorio, Satisfactory, Minecraft, you name it.), makes it easier to understand. And you handled that many to many relation like a boss! Super nice episode, and the rest of the series as well! :-)
Hi @Nilaus. I always just set all the limits to a constant, then add as many trains as the outposts can take. Also make sure for each station there is room for the max amount of trains. So in your case the outposts probably would get max 1 train. This way the stacker in your base would fill when the consumption is low. The other trains would wait full at the outpost. The base always unloads as fast as possible. The way you do it, empty trains can block the station in the base (like happened during the episode) when all the outposts are empty.
That was pretty cool! I especially like the lights to indicate the current capacity of a train stop. Now there is one problem with this system still: empty trains wait at the unloading station for new loading stations to become available, even though there would be full trains available to go into the unloading station. See e.g. towards the end of the video where the full iron train cannot enter the station because there is still an empty one in there. Maybe there needs to be a buffer for outgoing trains as well somewhere? It could be in the form of a stacker with a train stop where empty trains simply pass through (no waiting condition), such that they wait at this buffer stop rather than at the unloading ones. To prevent trains for different resources from blocking each other, there would then also need to be a different buffer stop for each resource. It might very well happen that the blocking empty train problem resolves itself with more iron being available, but this buffer system would be cool to see anyways :)
Following up on PP...Nilaus, how do you deal with this? I tried creating a parking lot with many stations named Fuel Depot. I placed it in the train schedule after each load and unload so that the empty train would always have a destination and not block the next inbound train. But after a while, the trains refused to go to fuel depot siting destination full. But they weren't.
Stackers at the loading station will indeed solve the issue, another way would be to set the limit at the unloading station equals to the number of stackers in the station (in this case 6). So set the max capacity at the station as 6x8000=48000. Would love to see how Nilaus solve the issue when he reaches Megabase size. ATM, the base has so few trains that it would not be a problem.
@@jbzinho Stackers won't solve the problem of an empty train sitting at the station when the other station is not calling for trains.. The stackers allow trains to wait to enter a station that is calling for trains and not block traffic.
@@daszveroboy Stackers won't help. I have stackers but if the train unloads and the loading station hasn't got enough to fill a train, and the circuit network has changed the loading station limit to 0, the train at the unload station has no where to go. And it keeps reading 'Destination Full' and blocks the station it is sitting at waiting for a place to go.
Oooh this is so useful! I had been wondering about the trains, because they keep going to unload at the station that is full and not at the empty one. I love the idea of using the red wire for constraints and the green for calculating / measuring / other stuff. Yes I was definitely entertained! I look forward to adjust my base using your blueprints to fix the train stuff.
I'm really impressed by the simplicity of the train limit control. Waaay easier than the ltn and tsm mods. Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware that you can control the limit by circuit signals. Awesome!
This was a great episode. I love using circuits on trains and your method of normalizing variables and using combinators for setting parameters was interesting.
I did understand the explanation, but honestly the delivery station was more difficult for me, i didn't realize that if you just did A *-1 it would automatically math against the A from the ore, i thought you needed another combinator to do that math, so it took me quite a while to understand how that was happening. I do really enjoy seeing different things that can be done with the circuit network, thanks for taking the time to walk through the whole thing!
At this scale it doesn't matter but if the network becomes really big there probably should be some depots in the network, so empty trains can go to depot and wait for an open ore station without blocking incoming trains.
Shouldnt be a problem as long as you have more suplly then demand and not to much trains so there is always some free station in the various small many to many schedules
He explains in another video why in some scenarios that wouldn't work and unfortunately lead to train congestion. The video is titled "ADVANCED TRAIN SYSTEMS; Deadlocks, Depots & Train Limits | Factorio Master Class"
@@lonr373 you can work around this problem by designing a more robust network. Wit 2-8 trains you will most likely run into ups issues rather than train congestion
Great video!! I have a similar system where I use one decider combinator per cargo wagon to check whether the wagon itself can be filled from the chests, if so, I output X = 1. Then at the stop is a final decider combinator that checks whether X=4, and outputs L=1. Instead of allowing multiple trains to come, I have many train yards in every area of my network, where train schedules are: load - yard - unload - yard. The dropoff station has a similar system with checking whether every set of chests has enough room for a full cargo wagon by subtracting wagon total cap. from chest total cap. Works great, very similar. Now working on making trains not care what resource they carry
One combinator: ANY divide by 8000, output L. You want to limit trains? Block the amount of slots in each chest in such size that they can load 2.9 trains. One combinator...
I always get lost instantly any time circuits start getting involved. Following along with this series is the first time I've really made use of the programing wire at all, using it to set limits on inserters going into storage chests instead of just setting chest limits. That tiny bit of new information has improved my efficiency immensely... no need for shenanigan's with requester chest trying to feed obsolete belts back into the production cycle to be improved. My biggest problem right now in following along is that I somehow missed the third basic ore smelter on each side so I'm looking at needing to expand my base to allow for that. On the plus side, I do understand why we are needing to use logic to control the flow of trains... luckily i can copy and paste just fine! Thanks for the content and for helping my base become more effective!
I did the same thing. Somewhere I missed when he expanded the smelting and the extra mining. Now I have to find a good spot cause I screwed something up in my layout somewhere. Lol
Damn, that was cool. Had a mini tutorial on circuits and combinators et al. Thank you ! I understood the basics, biut wasn't sure what icon was what; i.e., what's the output, what's the input, and what kind of signals you can do. It's actually very flexible. My deepest gratitude Mr @Nilaus
I've been enjoying playing along with your blueprint book! I think the unloading station would benefit from a train limiter as well; by my count 6 with number of lanes from your blueprints. Sure, 6 trains getting assigned is probably unlikely - let alone more than that - but as this expands, I could see that becoming a possibility and a traffic jam blocking the lane. Your explanation of the circuits was really good, so I think I can build it in on my play.
I thought so too at first, but now I think that it is very unlikely or nearly impossible to get that problem. The main point here is, that if you have more than 6 train slots open in the station, then you have the free storage in the chests to unload them at full speed (by design). So you would have to have a nearly empty station (to request more than 6 trains) and then more than 6 trains more or less at the same time being loaded with ore and coming in. If you have ore available, your station will never get that empty, because loading and unloading is faster than the consumption of the smelters. And if you have not enough ore available and your station gets empty (like his now), then you will most likely not have all the 6+ trains at once full of ore coming in.
@@saltatio1545 Interesting take. Currently that would be the case with the red belts, but what about when the smelter stacks are upgraded to blue belts with beacons? I may just be overengieering for a problem that doesn't actually exist. I did build the limiter to 6 trains to match the max stacker size and increased the lights on my playthough. I also converted the "X" to a color instead so I could have the 6th light indicate "full", which would also be telling me that I have a supply problem as I'm not able to fill the station's demand for enough ore. If it's requesting all 6 lanes, it would mean the box is very empty and I need to add more mining outposts.
@@TheYukihoshi Yeah, I'm not sure what happens if you upgrade to blue belts. I dont know how many smelter collumns fit in a single cityblock, so how many would be fed by a single train station. (And remember, every column that outputs 45 plates per sec only consumes 37,5 ore) But if you are consuming your ore faster than you are unloading it from the trains into the chests, you have a problem in every setup i would say ^^ But yes, your solution is cleaner. I will change his setup a bit too when I come around to implement it in my base. At the moment I have a system that is more simple but similar and also effective at that scale.
Love the explanation! Limits definitely are great for setting up trains like this. There is a way to make the circuits even simpler. I just limit the chest that you're reading at the supply stations, such that you'll never have more in buffer than the max limit. So, for 4 trains, limit the chests to (40×4)/6 = 27 stacks. Then X never becomes more than 4 and the limiting circuits are no longer needed.
While this leads to simpler circuits, it leads to a more finicky way of limiting the station overall. It’s far faster to swoop into a station and change the constant combinator than to have to calculate and change the chest limit and copy tit to all the chests. It’s also more prone to error (like missing the paste on a chest or two). “Work smarter, not harder.” ;)
I did the train limit combinators with just 2 deciders. Just decide how much X your train holds, set the first combinator to output 1 when >= X, the second combinator to output 1 when >= 2X, and so on for N deciders (I only do 2). Then connect all deciders directly to the train station. Works great for outposts where you don't really have a depot, although in your base it might be a bit much for the input stations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he set up his combinators in a way so that the buffer chests will signal for more trains before they get fully empty. I'm assuming to have better timing efficiency with train travel times from station to station.
I've done this setup before and had a problem that I think you're going to have too. There is a chance of an empty train get stuck in an empty unloading station with a full loaded train behind it waiting to unload. Btw, it happens at 31:13. And it happens because the train finishes unloading but the loading station don't have a full train available yet. I've managed to fix it using a parking lot on the exit point of the base. This way you can force a train to go to the parking lot before going to the loading station, and free up the unloading station to the next train. It looks hacky in the end, so I'm not happy with the design.
@@colto2312 yeah, that's what I meant with "hacky" and why I'm not happy with the solution. The good thing is that I'm using it only for the base to build the mega base. So, no need to go to 100+ trains.
I think what you could do is use circuit to open depot stations only if there's no loading stations available for empty trains. That way the depot stations only get used when needed. If there's a loading station available, the train goes straight to it. That way you minimize the excess use of extra intersections and extra braking, stopping and accelerating that cause traffic problems.
25:50 Wouldn't It be better to also have a limiting circuit at the unloading stations? Because first It would add consistency and second It would prevent the stacker to overflow and would therefore make your many to many train network more scalable. And the third reason is even though it is not a technical one, the blueprints for the circuits would be nearly identical, you would only have to switch a 1 with a -1! Edit: Well, not exactly, but it could be build like that.
Connect the Arith to a Decider, Set the Decider as L > 1 output L 1. Connect to an Arith, Set the Arith (L*1Train Limit) output L. Connect Arith to trainstop. Disconnect the wire from the Arith to the lights, now connect the last Arith you placed to the lights. What this does is set any number above 1 to 1 then allows you change the train limit with L*1. Remember L*1 = 1 train limit as L always = 1. If you want two trains then do L*2.
Its ironic that I'm watching this episode and I just built my own version of a train limiter circuit. Its interesting to see the differences in how you do it.
Are you going to build a depot for the trains that are "stuck" at the stations keeping loaded trains out of them? If not, will your solution be to get a crap ton more outposts?
17:55 Nilaus makes a mistake (he copies from iron ore station, pastes it on coal station), which every one of us probably will make too. The train carries coal back to iron smelters. He finally finds it in the next episode. :)
i think it would be better to set train limit at ore sites to 1 more than you have. if you do so, there will always be one train near and as you did it in the video there are empty trains waiting at unloading site blocking full trains to unload. i think that it is better for empty trains to wait at loading site than them blockeing full trains at unloading site because they cant go to loading site
I expect he will eventually do this, but the problem is the outpost will block the main rail line if more than three trains are there (for copper). So to implement your idea he needs to add a stacker at the outposts.
yeah that's been my conclusion. Doing a krastorio megabase using the limits logic. Solved it by having small 'refuel' stackers at the perimeter wall. But since i'm committed at this point (300+ trains) i'm not switching it. Next time: all requester stations (train shows up empty depots) have a minimum of one as the limit
@@colto2312 yup! It largely depends on personal preference. Generally there are three main options: stack at outpost, stack at factory, stack at dedicated “depot”. (Some like to do a combination of all three.) So far in Base-in-a-Book, Nilaus is primarily stacking at the factory; but also has a small built-in stacker (just due to rail length) at the outposts. He has also often used a depot stacker (with or without fueling) as well. You can kinda grow it as you need. You just have to make sure all trains have somewhere (safe) to park if their next route is blocked due to a train limit. Of course the real answer to blocked (closed by zero limit) is build more rockets. :p
i like the train network but i feel a silent global alarm should be setup if a train blocks a unloading station for to long as a reminder to set up a new outpost and another if an outpost stops requesting trains (runs out of ore) to start decommissioning it
Isn't there a possibility of deadlock if there are more trains and the train limit on the ore stations is low or zero. Also the requestor stations also have low station limit. How can I solve this ?
Shouldn't you add those 2 >= & < deciders in the unloading station to limit amount of the train limits to stacker size? Otherwise you might have 7+ trains assigned to the station even though you have smaller stacker.
Yes, however the problem with limiting on both sides is that you can run into a “deadlock” situation where outposts and the base stations are full. And then the trains can’t travel either direction. I’m guessing this is a “future Nilaus” problem since he doesn’t have enough trains in the network to deadlock yet.
for my base im current using rail blocks of about 200x200, (actually a bit more or less depending on where you measure) Its all Grid based, ie, i got modules for everything, if i need more of something i can just add another module, preferably adding it where it is needed. im using 1-4-1 trains for everything except ores, those use 2-8 trains. i cannot understate the importance of doing something proper on the first run, i am now constantly facing issues where stuff isnt connected properly to the network, names are set wrong etc because i kept doing iterations without changing the rest. the most important addition imo is a way to read out your supply and capabilities. im running a red and green wire through my grid, one reads out the amount of avalible trains (from the cargo chests, taken the L signal) and one is just for adding the maximum a module can supply. so if i add a smeltery module, thats 4 beaconed furnace stops, each 5x 2-8 train buffer, 5x1-4-1 plates train buffer. so the whole module outputs 20 plates onto the red wire, and 0-20 plates onto the green wire depending on how full the module is. i then take that and fraction it into a readable scale, which changes as i add more modules. is that a good way to do it? or would you rather recommend adding a +1 for a supply and doing -1 for a consumer missing?
I am interested as to how you utilize the stackers you made. They are somewhat under utilized since you only allow two trains in, which on the iron side means you don't really need the stacker at all. Love the circuit stuff though! Keep it coming!
well i just used your blueprints on my train stations and changed many train station names XD lots of stones in the copper department now and more stuff to find out. well rip me :D
6:55 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the first combiner [Each * 1 = "O"] redundant? At least for this circuit. If you replace "O" with Each in the second combinator? [Each / total Cargo Size = "X"]
As long as he doesn't have more than 5 trains of each type it won't be a problem. But yeah, I would also think he needs adjusting either the circuits or stackers before going to mega-base level. An easy fix could be to set the "full station parameter" to the content of five trains.
6 trains may fit as there is a stacker for 4, one train fits between the main line and the signal just before the station and the last train in the station itself.
Granted, 9 was too high. But he actually had room for 6 trains. 4 in the stacker, 1 in the station, and one between the stacker and station. You can do a similar circuit as his load stations to set the hard limit of trains inbound.
GRAA! Your unloading station blueprint has the underground right up next to the sacred path, not one space back! LOL I guess I fixed more of mine than you did.
Just getting into this. which video covers how to set up the trains so they "park" when there is no need for them. Not sure how those circuits or train programming should be set up.
I've been watching this series for a short time and looking at your tutorials, but there is one thing that I don't understand, I'm new in factorio, but is there any tip or trick to build the balancer belts, do you have any way, like a structure to create them? well, i would like to watch a master class about this, if it is possible for you, thanks
You could get a situation where you have 3 unloading stations, and 5 trains are all allocated to the nearest station to the ore, and then end up stuck in a stacker because they can't unload. If the unloading stations are constrained, it helps balance where the trains go when they come in. It isn't a problem if you have 1 train or 100 trains, but there's some point in the middle where they don't balance themselves well.
I feel like the meta will inevitably become all requester stations have a default of at least one open station, due to blocking the next provider train.
For this to work, do you need to connect the circuit wires all the way to the train drop off stations as well? Or is the circuit all contained to the mining outpost?
Everything is contained within the stations, the mining outpost is saying "I have enough ore to fill X trains" the dropoff station is saying "I have space to unload X trains" so then the trains will only go to an outpost that can fill it up, then only go to drop-off stations that can fully unload it
Yes, a properly signaled stacker would work, but that's a different train management strategy than what Nilaus is using here. He's using circuits to exercise smart control over the system, so he only needs a stacker on one end, eliminating the stacker at the loading station. The way i build, the loading station has a "dumb" stacker (just signals, no circuits) with enough lanes to handle all the requests (empty trains) going to it. The production station owns as many supply trains as it needs, and sends the trains to pick up a load when empty. The production station still needs to own and stack spare train(s) so production can keep going when it sends the empty train. Two notes: 1: Always overprovision your supply to keep the production areas happy. If you need two mine stations, make three. You'll use it all eventually, so don't fret the extra miners. 2: You need enough stacker lanes to handle all the trains going to each destination. If a mine runs out, you don't want want empty trains spilling out onto the main line. If a production area stops, you don't want full trains spilling out onto the main line.
@@tippyc2 A third note would be that you don't want empty trains blocking your production inputs. That's why it's important to be able to stack all allocated incoming empty trains at the loading station.
The chests are balanced due to the fact that the loading and unloading are going through balancers before/after the station. You only really need "madzuri" style unload balancing if you're unloading from 6 chests/belt.
The blueprint for the mining outposts is in the full base in a book on nilaus's website. Hope this helps you until the generic blueprints section is updated.
In the loading section, can't you just put the train station limit to 1? the only downside I see in doing this, is that you'll send a train every time the loading train have left the station, but you don't logistic
How do you best fix it so the trains are not getting destination full while they're at the drop off? I have all of these mining locations setup that they could be stopped at instead, but only one drop off at the bus, and it's constantly blocked by empty trains.
I changed the circuit to include the # of extra sidings at the mining location, so the stations are always calling for several trains. IDK how else to fix
they idle at the loading location and only depart when there is an open requester location. That way I guarantee that they never cause congestion as I do not have more trains than I have loading locations
The one step that confuses me is the 'add' step at the unloading station. I understand the logic- add the amount in the boxes to the inverse of what you actually want in them, if the result is less than -8000 then summon additional trains... but you just connected a wire and called it an addition step. An exploded blueprint of these setups might be helpful for figuring out the actual order of the wiring... particularly since there's often a power pole in front of some of the connections.
I played around with it a bit in game and, yeah, it seems like addition is the default behavior when you get the same signal on the same wire from multiple sources (as I could have figured out by looking at the steel chests summing up the ore before going into the first arithmetic combinator. So, when you input A on the green wire from both the constant combinator and the the first arithmetic combinator, it adds them together before dividing by the cargo wagon.
Does anyone know how he makes his combinators and stuff have the input/output on the actual combinator, as well as the UI. By the way I know about Alt mode, but doing that never shows any icon in the combinators
@@craighowell2983 Yep, that's the one. I noticed, however, that since I posted this someone else has done a pastebin of just the mining outposts if you check further down these comments?
You have trains dedicated to certain materials. For example ore trains that get ore from mines and bring it to smelter. In general you have provider stations and requester stations for each material. You give all provider stations of one material the same name and same with requester, then all trains for that task just go to provider, load full, go to requester, load empty. If you want to prevent them from blocking stations, while there is nothing to do, you can send them to depots in between.
I REALLY want to know, why not do this on the RECEIVING end? Like, set a minimum amount of ore, that has to be in the boxes on the smelter's side and request trains with ore to come when needed?
anyone can help me I have been trying ingame and it is annoying the shit outa me, if you copy some print and before you paste it you forgot something and exit out of the print how do you recall that previous print you just copied, I keep on going back and recopy it, an example of this is at 16:45 thanks
I assume it's because when it's comparing 2 different input, having look at at "A" and "cargo train" makes it fool proof whereas the "anything" input would take into account "cargo train" as a input to add
The math becomes , for example : a ( which would be iron ore for example) / "cargo train" = how many trains can come in VERSUS anything (which includes ores + "cargo train") / "cargo train" (this would always input a minimum of 1 , which we dont want in this case)
I understand that this is an attempt to create LTN without mods. Do you still need to program in depots, or do trains just hang out (blocking) at the stations? Personally, I don't find this better than LTN as you must still manually schedule X number of trains to each ore, vs LTN where you just create a pool of trains and they are scheduled out as needed.
One should end up with a large heap of trains at the hub with an output only stacker + blueprint of said stacker, and next to it a 1/0 train corresponding to each train depo you're using, hopefully color coded. this way you can find the pink train, copy paste onto your stacker, and unleash 50 new copper ore trains in one go. Stamp the blueprint, and you have a new batch of trains to unleash
I really like the fact that you're making factorio tutorial episodes. You have a lot of knowledge about how this game works. Could you please write a script and plan out what you're going to say and do in a video? I get that you're playing the game while recording what you are saying, but there are many times where I get lost because your train of thought trails off or you end your ideas with very vague words. This makes it very hard to follow at times and that is frustrating. I get that making these videos takes a lot of effort already and that not everyone has the same complaints I do. However, if I were making videos like these I would value feedback that would help make them better. Anyway. Thanks for the video. You're one of the few people making Factorio content and I appreciate that.
This video is a year old and i probably wont get an answer but ehy count the input into the chest rather than just connectiong the chests and reading the contents
I thought I'd got confused when the maths started using Greek letters. And then it started outputting trains.
pi times radius squared over train to the iron oreth power of railway, my friend... simple
So true😂
I am fairly new to Factorio .. (250+- hours )
And I built the most amazing Spaghetti base ... And it worked so well... Until I saw how simple this Bus base was.... I couldn't for the life of me get train signals to work... So I hated trains.... But this evening was the first time I had 3 trains running on the same tracks . And I am so happy ! Thank you Nilaus ! You are a legend! Keep it up.
I had no idea how circuits worked before this video, but now i have a fair idea. Thanks for all the hard work you put in to these videos Nilaus, my brain defintely got a bit more wrinkled after this one!
Oh also, i don't know if i did it wrong, but the outposts dont have blueprints, so I just followed along with the video instead
@@taylesz No blueprints as far as I can tell, I also couldn't get the thing to work. Redone it time and time again.
@@RoberthMarkstrom Gimmie a sec and ill put a copy of my outpost one
@@RoberthMarkstrom i dont think the comments like my link, try pastebin with /4WeKxHay on the end, copied the blueprint on there
@@RoberthMarkstrom PAstebin and me are having issues, blueprint code is on here: www.reddit.com/user/TattleTayles/comments/nh9jp0/factorio_outpost_logic/
6:10 Loading Station
21:12 Unloading Station
Thanks!
thx this guy rambles a lot
Gotta admit, that as a automation developer in my work life, translation stuff like this into the gaming world (Factorio, Satisfactory, Minecraft, you name it.), makes it easier to understand. And you handled that many to many relation like a boss! Super nice episode, and the rest of the series as well! :-)
Hi @Nilaus. I always just set all the limits to a constant, then add as many trains as the outposts can take. Also make sure for each station there is room for the max amount of trains. So in your case the outposts probably would get max 1 train.
This way the stacker in your base would fill when the consumption is low. The other trains would wait full at the outpost. The base always unloads as fast as possible.
The way you do it, empty trains can block the station in the base (like happened during the episode) when all the outposts are empty.
saved
You set the maximum amount of trains per station with the wagon signal (max 2)
Is it totally dumb to do as I did and just add an interrupt for "when no route or station full" go to a large central stacker/refuel station
That was pretty cool! I especially like the lights to indicate the current capacity of a train stop.
Now there is one problem with this system still: empty trains wait at the unloading station for new loading stations to become available, even though there would be full trains available to go into the unloading station. See e.g. towards the end of the video where the full iron train cannot enter the station because there is still an empty one in there.
Maybe there needs to be a buffer for outgoing trains as well somewhere? It could be in the form of a stacker with a train stop where empty trains simply pass through (no waiting condition), such that they wait at this buffer stop rather than at the unloading ones. To prevent trains for different resources from blocking each other, there would then also need to be a different buffer stop for each resource.
It might very well happen that the blocking empty train problem resolves itself with more iron being available, but this buffer system would be cool to see anyways :)
Following up on PP...Nilaus, how do you deal with this?
I tried creating a parking lot with many stations named Fuel Depot. I placed it in the train schedule after each load and unload so that the empty train would always have a destination and not block the next inbound train. But after a while, the trains refused to go to fuel depot siting destination full. But they weren't.
He said in the video that he needed to setup stackers for the load stations.
Stackers at the loading station will indeed solve the issue, another way would be to set the limit at the unloading station equals to the number of stackers in the station (in this case 6). So set the max capacity at the station as 6x8000=48000. Would love to see how Nilaus solve the issue when he reaches Megabase size. ATM, the base has so few trains that it would not be a problem.
@@jbzinho Stackers won't solve the problem of an empty train sitting at the station when the other station is not calling for trains.. The stackers allow trains to wait to enter a station that is calling for trains and not block traffic.
@@daszveroboy Stackers won't help. I have stackers but if the train unloads and the loading station hasn't got enough to fill a train, and the circuit network has changed the loading station limit to 0, the train at the unload station has no where to go. And it keeps reading 'Destination Full' and blocks the station it is sitting at waiting for a place to go.
Oooh this is so useful! I had been wondering about the trains, because they keep going to unload at the station that is full and not at the empty one. I love the idea of using the red wire for constraints and the green for calculating / measuring / other stuff. Yes I was definitely entertained! I look forward to adjust my base using your blueprints to fix the train stuff.
I'm really impressed by the simplicity of the train limit control. Waaay easier than the ltn and tsm mods. Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware that you can control the limit by circuit signals. Awesome!
Left side: 99 items
Right side: 100 items
Nilaus: And I balanced that perfectly
This was a great episode. I love using circuits on trains and your method of normalizing variables and using combinators for setting parameters was interesting.
I did understand the explanation, but honestly the delivery station was more difficult for me, i didn't realize that if you just did A *-1 it would automatically math against the A from the ore, i thought you needed another combinator to do that math, so it took me quite a while to understand how that was happening.
I do really enjoy seeing different things that can be done with the circuit network, thanks for taking the time to walk through the whole thing!
Super excited to see the focused video on this, yay! 🚂🚂
At this scale it doesn't matter but if the network becomes really big there probably should be some depots in the network, so empty trains can go to depot and wait for an open ore station without blocking incoming trains.
Shouldnt be a problem as long as you have more suplly then demand and not to much trains so there is always some free station in the various small many to many schedules
He explains in another video why in some scenarios that wouldn't work and unfortunately lead to train congestion. The video is titled "ADVANCED TRAIN SYSTEMS; Deadlocks, Depots & Train Limits | Factorio Master Class"
@@lonr373 you can work around this problem by designing a more robust network. Wit 2-8 trains you will most likely run into ups issues rather than train congestion
Great video!! I have a similar system where I use one decider combinator per cargo wagon to check whether the wagon itself can be filled from the chests, if so, I output X = 1. Then at the stop is a final decider combinator that checks whether X=4, and outputs L=1. Instead of allowing multiple trains to come, I have many train yards in every area of my network, where train schedules are: load - yard - unload - yard. The dropoff station has a similar system with checking whether every set of chests has enough room for a full cargo wagon by subtracting wagon total cap. from chest total cap.
Works great, very similar. Now working on making trains not care what resource they carry
oh man i was just running into this with a train focused ribbon world.
Yesssss traaaaaaaaains!!!!! Will check this out as soon as I've a break from work. Many many thanks.
That awkward moment when after watching the video I want to take a time machine into the future and binge watch like 50 episodes...
Very nice setup for the train limiter! And the lights make the feed/need issue really easy to understand.
One combinator: ANY divide by 8000, output L. You want to limit trains? Block the amount of slots in each chest in such size that they can load 2.9 trains.
One combinator...
I always get lost instantly any time circuits start getting involved. Following along with this series is the first time I've really made use of the programing wire at all, using it to set limits on inserters going into storage chests instead of just setting chest limits.
That tiny bit of new information has improved my efficiency immensely... no need for shenanigan's with requester chest trying to feed obsolete belts back into the production cycle to be improved.
My biggest problem right now in following along is that I somehow missed the third basic ore smelter on each side so I'm looking at needing to expand my base to allow for that.
On the plus side, I do understand why we are needing to use logic to control the flow of trains... luckily i can copy and paste just fine! Thanks for the content and for helping my base become more effective!
I did the same thing. Somewhere I missed when he expanded the smelting and the extra mining. Now I have to find a good spot cause I screwed something up in my layout somewhere. Lol
Damn, that was cool. Had a mini tutorial on circuits and combinators et al. Thank you ! I understood the basics, biut wasn't sure what icon was what; i.e., what's the output, what's the input, and what kind of signals you can do. It's actually very flexible. My deepest gratitude Mr @Nilaus
The train circuits explanations were really helpful, thank you.
I've been enjoying playing along with your blueprint book! I think the unloading station would benefit from a train limiter as well; by my count 6 with number of lanes from your blueprints. Sure, 6 trains getting assigned is probably unlikely - let alone more than that - but as this expands, I could see that becoming a possibility and a traffic jam blocking the lane. Your explanation of the circuits was really good, so I think I can build it in on my play.
I thought so too at first, but now I think that it is very unlikely or nearly impossible to get that problem. The main point here is, that if you have more than 6 train slots open in the station, then you have the free storage in the chests to unload them at full speed (by design). So you would have to have a nearly empty station (to request more than 6 trains) and then more than 6 trains more or less at the same time being loaded with ore and coming in. If you have ore available, your station will never get that empty, because loading and unloading is faster than the consumption of the smelters. And if you have not enough ore available and your station gets empty (like his now), then you will most likely not have all the 6+ trains at once full of ore coming in.
@@saltatio1545 Interesting take. Currently that would be the case with the red belts, but what about when the smelter stacks are upgraded to blue belts with beacons? I may just be overengieering for a problem that doesn't actually exist. I did build the limiter to 6 trains to match the max stacker size and increased the lights on my playthough. I also converted the "X" to a color instead so I could have the 6th light indicate "full", which would also be telling me that I have a supply problem as I'm not able to fill the station's demand for enough ore. If it's requesting all 6 lanes, it would mean the box is very empty and I need to add more mining outposts.
@@TheYukihoshi Yeah, I'm not sure what happens if you upgrade to blue belts. I dont know how many smelter collumns fit in a single cityblock, so how many would be fed by a single train station. (And remember, every column that outputs 45 plates per sec only consumes 37,5 ore)
But if you are consuming your ore faster than you are unloading it from the trains into the chests, you have a problem in every setup i would say ^^
But yes, your solution is cleaner. I will change his setup a bit too when I come around to implement it in my base. At the moment I have a system that is more simple but similar and also effective at that scale.
Love the explanation! Limits definitely are great for setting up trains like this.
There is a way to make the circuits even simpler. I just limit the chest that you're reading at the supply stations, such that you'll never have more in buffer than the max limit. So, for 4 trains, limit the chests to (40×4)/6 = 27 stacks. Then X never becomes more than 4 and the limiting circuits are no longer needed.
While this leads to simpler circuits, it leads to a more finicky way of limiting the station overall. It’s far faster to swoop into a station and change the constant combinator than to have to calculate and change the chest limit and copy tit to all the chests. It’s also more prone to error (like missing the paste on a chest or two). “Work smarter, not harder.” ;)
This is really great. I was just trying to figure out how to handle my train stops better. This is the way.
Awesome video like always! This will help my train network a LOT!
I did the train limit combinators with just 2 deciders. Just decide how much X your train holds, set the first combinator to output 1 when >= X, the second combinator to output 1 when >= 2X, and so on for N deciders (I only do 2). Then connect all deciders directly to the train station.
Works great for outposts where you don't really have a depot, although in your base it might be a bit much for the input stations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he set up his combinators in a way so that the buffer chests will signal for more trains before they get fully empty. I'm assuming to have better timing efficiency with train travel times from station to station.
@@danielcs86 Indeed he did, so does the above approach, it's just a simpler setup for small train stations.
I've done this setup before and had a problem that I think you're going to have too.
There is a chance of an empty train get stuck in an empty unloading station with a full loaded train behind it waiting to unload. Btw, it happens at 31:13.
And it happens because the train finishes unloading but the loading station don't have a full train available yet.
I've managed to fix it using a parking lot on the exit point of the base. This way you can force a train to go to the parking lot before going to the loading station, and free up the unloading station to the next train.
It looks hacky in the end, so I'm not happy with the design.
just wait till you have 300 trains on the grid, that parking lot gonna look like 5pm rush hour all the time. Speaking from experience
@@colto2312 yeah, that's what I meant with "hacky" and why I'm not happy with the solution. The good thing is that I'm using it only for the base to build the mega base. So, no need to go to 100+ trains.
I think what you could do is use circuit to open depot stations only if there's no loading stations available for empty trains. That way the depot stations only get used when needed. If there's a loading station available, the train goes straight to it. That way you minimize the excess use of extra intersections and extra braking, stopping and accelerating that cause traffic problems.
25:50 Wouldn't It be better to also have a limiting circuit at the unloading stations? Because first It would add consistency and second It would prevent the stacker to overflow and would therefore make your many to many train network more scalable.
And the third reason is even though it is not a technical one, the blueprints for the circuits would be nearly identical, you would only have to switch a 1 with a -1!
Edit: Well, not exactly, but it could be build like that.
Connect the Arith to a Decider, Set the Decider as L > 1 output L 1. Connect to an Arith, Set the Arith (L*1Train Limit) output L. Connect Arith to trainstop. Disconnect the wire from the Arith to the lights, now connect the last Arith you placed to the lights.
What this does is set any number above 1 to 1 then allows you change the train limit with L*1. Remember L*1 = 1 train limit as L always = 1. If you want two trains then do L*2.
Great video Nilaus, thank you so much!
Its ironic that I'm watching this episode and I just built my own version of a train limiter circuit. Its interesting to see the differences in how you do it.
Are you going to build a depot for the trains that are "stuck" at the stations keeping loaded trains out of them? If not, will your solution be to get a crap ton more outposts?
I have the same question 😅 and how do you build this depot ?
17:55 Nilaus makes a mistake (he copies from iron ore station, pastes it on coal station), which every one of us probably will make too.
The train carries coal back to iron smelters. He finally finds it in the next episode. :)
I copy & paste the train station setting, and make the same mistake in a recent play.
It takes me hours to clean the polluted belts.
i think it would be better to set train limit at ore sites to 1 more than you have. if you do so, there will always be one train near and as you did it in the video there are empty trains waiting at unloading site blocking full trains to unload. i think that it is better for empty trains to wait at loading site than them blockeing full trains at unloading site because they cant go to loading site
I expect he will eventually do this, but the problem is the outpost will block the main rail line if more than three trains are there (for copper). So to implement your idea he needs to add a stacker at the outposts.
yeah that's been my conclusion. Doing a krastorio megabase using the limits logic. Solved it by having small 'refuel' stackers at the perimeter wall. But since i'm committed at this point (300+ trains) i'm not switching it. Next time: all requester stations (train shows up empty depots) have a minimum of one as the limit
@@colto2312 yup! It largely depends on personal preference. Generally there are three main options: stack at outpost, stack at factory, stack at dedicated “depot”. (Some like to do a combination of all three.)
So far in Base-in-a-Book, Nilaus is primarily stacking at the factory; but also has a small built-in stacker (just due to rail length) at the outposts. He has also often used a depot stacker (with or without fueling) as well.
You can kinda grow it as you need. You just have to make sure all trains have somewhere (safe) to park if their next route is blocked due to a train limit.
Of course the real answer to blocked (closed by zero limit) is build more rockets. :p
i like the train network but i feel a silent global alarm should be setup if a train blocks a unloading station for to long as a reminder to set up a new outpost
and another if an outpost stops requesting trains (runs out of ore) to start decommissioning it
Isn't there a possibility of deadlock if there are more trains and the train limit on the ore stations is low or zero. Also the requestor stations also have low station limit. How can I solve this ?
Shouldn't you add those 2 >= & < deciders in the unloading station to limit amount of the train limits to stacker size? Otherwise you might have 7+ trains assigned to the station even though you have smaller stacker.
Was thinking the same 👍
Yes, however the problem with limiting on both sides is that you can run into a “deadlock” situation where outposts and the base stations are full. And then the trains can’t travel either direction. I’m guessing this is a “future Nilaus” problem since he doesn’t have enough trains in the network to deadlock yet.
for my base im current using rail blocks of about 200x200, (actually a bit more or less depending on where you measure)
Its all Grid based, ie, i got modules for everything, if i need more of something i can just add another module, preferably adding it where it is needed. im using 1-4-1 trains for everything except ores, those use 2-8 trains.
i cannot understate the importance of doing something proper on the first run, i am now constantly facing issues where stuff isnt connected properly to the network, names are set wrong etc because i kept doing iterations without changing the rest.
the most important addition imo is a way to read out your supply and capabilities.
im running a red and green wire through my grid, one reads out the amount of avalible trains (from the cargo chests, taken the L signal) and one is just for adding the maximum a module can supply.
so if i add a smeltery module, thats 4 beaconed furnace stops, each 5x 2-8 train buffer, 5x1-4-1 plates train buffer. so the whole module outputs 20 plates onto the red wire, and 0-20 plates onto the green wire depending on how full the module is.
i then take that and fraction it into a readable scale, which changes as i add more modules.
is that a good way to do it? or would you rather recommend adding a +1 for a supply and doing -1 for a consumer missing?
I am interested as to how you utilize the stackers you made. They are somewhat under utilized since you only allow two trains in, which on the iron side means you don't really need the stacker at all. Love the circuit stuff though! Keep it coming!
well i just used your blueprints on my train stations and changed many train station names XD lots of stones in the copper department now and more stuff to find out. well rip me :D
hello nilaus second here an a lover of this series. and im from denmark too
6:55 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the first combiner
[Each * 1 = "O"] redundant? At least for this circuit. If you replace "O" with Each in the second combinator?
[Each / total Cargo Size = "X"]
Its amazing how this game got robots lasers,automatic turrets etc
But a simple calculator is the size of a house lol
This was very useful. Thank you!
At 5:50 you start into the circuit logic and I don't know where to start learning all that. Do you have a video of this with more detail and slower?
great episode as always
Very nice usage of the train limits - and well explained, easy to follow. Do you need more stackingspace for those stations with 9 incoming trains?
As long as he doesn't have more than 5 trains of each type it won't be a problem. But yeah, I would also think he needs adjusting either the circuits or stackers before going to mega-base level.
An easy fix could be to set the "full station parameter" to the content of five trains.
6 trains may fit as there is a stacker for 4, one train fits between the main line and the signal just before the station and the last train in the station itself.
Where's the blueprint for the loading side? I can't find it anywhere, and I downloaded the strings from pastebin!
Aren’t train limits supposed to be set to the number of trains in the stacker? You’re copper input station can be increased to four
Without this logic, you might have trains waiting in stacker of full station (no place to unload) even though other stations are empty.
Granted, 9 was too high. But he actually had room for 6 trains. 4 in the stacker, 1 in the station, and one between the stacker and station. You can do a similar circuit as his load stations to set the hard limit of trains inbound.
GRAA! Your unloading station blueprint has the underground right up next to the sacred path, not one space back! LOL I guess I fixed more of mine than you did.
My brain hurts now..... will need to check the blueprints :)
thanks for the work man
How big are your grid squares?
Just getting into this. which video covers how to set up the trains so they "park" when there is no need for them. Not sure how those circuits or train programming should be set up.
Thank you for this, working great
I've been watching this series for a short time and looking at your tutorials, but there is one thing that I don't understand, I'm new in factorio, but is there any tip or trick to build the balancer belts, do you have any way, like a structure to create them? well, i would like to watch a master class about this, if it is possible for you, thanks
And yes, I was entertained :)
Why constrain the unloading stations as well? Wouldn't it be simpler to just let the loading stations regulate the train flow?
You could get a situation where you have 3 unloading stations, and 5 trains are all allocated to the nearest station to the ore, and then end up stuck in a stacker because they can't unload. If the unloading stations are constrained, it helps balance where the trains go when they come in. It isn't a problem if you have 1 train or 100 trains, but there's some point in the middle where they don't balance themselves well.
@@goofyrice Thanks!
Question about the hybrid fluid train. What would you adjust your count to on that station?
Thanks in advance.
I feel like the meta will inevitably become all requester stations have a default of at least one open station, due to blocking the next provider train.
Requestors get the lights stacking treatment, providers get limits
For this to work, do you need to connect the circuit wires all the way to the train drop off stations as well? Or is the circuit all contained to the mining outpost?
Everything is contained within the stations, the mining outpost is saying "I have enough ore to fill X trains" the dropoff station is saying "I have space to unload X trains" so then the trains will only go to an outpost that can fill it up, then only go to drop-off stations that can fully unload it
in your reverse megabase you fixed the trains blocking loading/unloading stations by having the stacker stations, does that work in these designs?
Yes, a properly signaled stacker would work, but that's a different train management strategy than what Nilaus is using here. He's using circuits to exercise smart control over the system, so he only needs a stacker on one end, eliminating the stacker at the loading station.
The way i build, the loading station has a "dumb" stacker (just signals, no circuits) with enough lanes to handle all the requests (empty trains) going to it. The production station owns as many supply trains as it needs, and sends the trains to pick up a load when empty. The production station still needs to own and stack spare train(s) so production can keep going when it sends the empty train. Two notes: 1: Always overprovision your supply to keep the production areas happy. If you need two mine stations, make three. You'll use it all eventually, so don't fret the extra miners. 2: You need enough stacker lanes to handle all the trains going to each destination. If a mine runs out, you don't want want empty trains spilling out onto the main line. If a production area stops, you don't want full trains spilling out onto the main line.
@@tippyc2 A third note would be that you don't want empty trains blocking your production inputs. That's why it's important to be able to stack all allocated incoming empty trains at the loading station.
Would it not be way simpler to manually set the train limit to 2 on the station and shut off the station when ore is less than 8k?
Would it not be beneficial to balance the loading/unloading chests as well ?
The chests are balanced due to the fact that the loading and unloading are going through balancers before/after the station. You only really need "madzuri" style unload balancing if you're unloading from 6 chests/belt.
20:30 how do select random poit and send the train there? I've been trying to figure this out for so long
get in the train, hold ctrl and click where you want to go
@@taylesz I'm not sure if I already tried this but I will try again, thanks
So you name the trains the same and they get assigned when and where they're needed?
Sweet video :)
Can you do a blueprint for the mining outpost please Nilaus, you have one for the unloading stations but not mining
The blueprint for the mining outposts is in the full base in a book on nilaus's website. Hope this helps you until the generic blueprints section is updated.
Thank you !!!
In the loading section, can't you just put the train station limit to 1? the only downside I see in doing this, is that you'll send a train every time the loading train have left the station, but you don't logistic
How do you best fix it so the trains are not getting destination full while they're at the drop off? I have all of these mining locations setup that they could be stopped at instead, but only one drop off at the bus, and it's constantly blocked by empty trains.
I changed the circuit to include the # of extra sidings at the mining location, so the stations are always calling for several trains. IDK how else to fix
where do the trains go when idle? do they just stop other trains from entering?
they idle at the loading location and only depart when there is an open requester location. That way I guarantee that they never cause congestion as I do not have more trains than I have loading locations
It would be really great if the blueprint actually stayed around like mentioned.
The one step that confuses me is the 'add' step at the unloading station. I understand the logic- add the amount in the boxes to the inverse of what you actually want in them, if the result is less than -8000 then summon additional trains... but you just connected a wire and called it an addition step.
An exploded blueprint of these setups might be helpful for figuring out the actual order of the wiring... particularly since there's often a power pole in front of some of the connections.
I played around with it a bit in game and, yeah, it seems like addition is the default behavior when you get the same signal on the same wire from multiple sources (as I could have figured out by looking at the steel chests summing up the ore before going into the first arithmetic combinator. So, when you input A on the green wire from both the constant combinator and the the first arithmetic combinator, it adds them together before dividing by the cargo wagon.
Does anyone know how he makes his combinators and stuff have the input/output on the actual combinator, as well as the UI.
By the way I know about Alt mode, but doing that never shows any icon in the combinators
go to settings, then interface. There are options to add more things to alt mode!
I really wish this kind of setup worked in Factory Town, but the population limit issue is a problem.
good afternoon, please enable the caption in the video.
I don't see the updated circuit blueprints for the mining outposts.
They are in the full download of the base in the book. Hope this helps until the generic book is updated.
@@VickyCarterR is that the base in a book (everything)?
@@craighowell2983 Yep, that's the one. I noticed, however, that since I posted this someone else has done a pastebin of just the mining outposts if you check further down these comments?
Maybe I missed it on a previous video, but how are the trains themselves set up? Are they just scheduled to deliver to everything?
You have trains dedicated to certain materials. For example ore trains that get ore from mines and bring it to smelter. In general you have provider stations and requester stations for each material. You give all provider stations of one material the same name and same with requester, then all trains for that task just go to provider, load full, go to requester, load empty. If you want to prevent them from blocking stations, while there is nothing to do, you can send them to depots in between.
@@pr3nzlb3rg3r Thats kind of what I suspected, thank you for the confirmation 😁
thank you
I REALLY want to know, why not do this on the RECEIVING end? Like, set a minimum amount of ore, that has to be in the boxes on the smelter's side and request trains with ore to come when needed?
he wants to limit the amount of incoming trains to this station so he has no long line of trains waiting and blocking
anyone can help me I have been trying ingame and it is annoying the shit outa me, if you copy some print and before you paste it you forgot something and exit out of the print how do you recall that previous print you just copied, I keep on going back and recopy it, an example of this is at 16:45 thanks
Love this tutorial! Why convert the anything input into an "A" to use instead of using the "anything" directly in the later circuits?
I assume it's because when it's comparing 2 different input, having look at at "A" and "cargo train" makes it fool proof whereas the "anything" input would take into account "cargo train" as a input to add
The math becomes , for example : a ( which would be iron ore for example) / "cargo train" = how many trains can come in VERSUS anything (which includes ores + "cargo train") / "cargo train" (this would always input a minimum of 1 , which we dont want in this case)
@@xLittlebigQuebecx Ah, I didn't consider that far ahead. Thank you!
I understand that this is an attempt to create LTN without mods. Do you still need to program in depots, or do trains just hang out (blocking) at the stations? Personally, I don't find this better than LTN as you must still manually schedule X number of trains to each ore, vs LTN where you just create a pool of trains and they are scheduled out as needed.
One should end up with a large heap of trains at the hub with an output only stacker + blueprint of said stacker, and next to it a 1/0 train corresponding to each train depo you're using, hopefully color coded. this way you can find the pink train, copy paste onto your stacker, and unleash 50 new copper ore trains in one go. Stamp the blueprint, and you have a new batch of trains to unleash
Did nobody notice that with the first combinator he multiplied "each" by "zero" not "one"?
Edit: For the unloading station. 22:19
I wish there was a PDF instruction manual with diagrams for this.
I was taught to avoid many to many.
I really like the fact that you're making factorio tutorial episodes. You have a lot of knowledge about how this game works. Could you please write a script and plan out what you're going to say and do in a video? I get that you're playing the game while recording what you are saying, but there are many times where I get lost because your train of thought trails off or you end your ideas with very vague words. This makes it very hard to follow at times and that is frustrating.
I get that making these videos takes a lot of effort already and that not everyone has the same complaints I do. However, if I were making videos like these I would value feedback that would help make them better.
Anyway. Thanks for the video. You're one of the few people making Factorio content and I appreciate that.
This video is a year old and i probably wont get an answer but ehy count the input into the chest rather than just connectiong the chests and reading the contents
Nice
no subtittle please activate
"This one"
I'm not sure if I'm just high or that was confusing. Probably both. I totally didn't follow what happened this episode
I effing hate trains and circuits.