I'm not taking anything away from Wise Dan. The rare burst of speed AK showed is not really the kind horses have time to respond to, but the kind that makes them look like they're standing still. It's a good video because it shows AK looking for room going into the far turn. This horse will thread the needle, when asked, as Johnny V showed in the Derby, but once the rider decided to take the rail he had nowhere to go until the end. Two great horses, different headline.
And I was lucky enough to see Dancing Brave in the flesh who I would definetly post as the number 2 in My all time list in Europe... That 86 Arc run is one of the best performances you will ever see on a racecourse!
I said arguably mate. He's a K. Derby winner that got within a length and 3/4 of the best horse in America for ages. Point of Entry is very good too. I was slightly disappointed that he didn't run to form on Saturday. He was one of the 3 American horses I was looking forward to seeing live.
I suggest you do some form reading, Even on his favoured track and ground Wise Dan could only put two lengths between himself and Excelebration a horse that was unfamiliar with such quick ground and only 13 days previously sauntered away with the QE2 on desperate ground - Wise Dan even had to produce a track record that day to beat the field. I'll give credit where its due, It was a top performance and I'd say probably his finest performance ever over a mile...
i LOVE that this replay features the race call by trevor Denman. I was present at the track for the BC that year, and Denman called the races, as he should. How can I buy a DVd of the BC races with his call?
Not really, he ran 2 weeks ago on heavy going having to travel half way across the world round a left handed bend he's never gone on before. I was actually impressed he got so close as 3 lengths with all that. You do realise Frankel beat him 11 last time they met though don't you? Wise Dan was awesome though, I enjoyed that race.
to only go down 2.5 lengths in course record time, The time Excelebration posted was quicker than any mile time Frankel as ever posted yet in there last meeting Frankel destroyed Excelebration by 11 lengths eased down over 8 furlongs. It just shows the type of animal Frankel was. A monster...
He won a Breeders Cup Turf and this season hes won 2 Gr1's already one in Dubai and one at Epsom, Frankel made him look ordinary. As for your obcession with times, Times mean jack in Europe. Many many ordinary animals hold track records in Europe, Take Cockney Rebel for example he won the 2000 Guineas at Newmarket in 2007 in track record time. Both Frankel and the great Sea the Stars have won it since on the exact same ground in a slower time - Are you going to tell me Cockney Rebel...
I heard the connections of Animal Kingdom are considering a trip to Royal-Ascot with him for the royal meeting in June, 2013 after his spectacular effort here in the BC Mile. I'm assuming the G1 Queen Anne Stakes at 8f is the race they're eying, but I personally think the G1 Prince of Wales's Stakes at 10f would better suit him. Animal Kingdom has that ability to explode off of bends. The Queen Anne is run on the straight mile track, no bends. The Prince of Wales is run on the oval track, though
Wise Dan would of easily...if challenged by Animal Kingdom...pulled away! When will you folks finally give the horse his due?!! Wise Dan is just about as special as they come when it comes to thoroughbred racing. The horse is a "freakish" talent!
knows, Frankel was never popped the question which was unfortunate. It'd have took a brave man to back against him just watching how he ran way with the Juddmonte International over the the extended 10f at York and the Champion Stakes on desperate ground I don't think 12f would have been a problem - He had that much ability I dont think any distance would have been a problem. Richard Hannon was adamant he should have ran in the July Cup after how he ran the first 4 furlongs on the 2000 Guineas..
While you make some very valid points, what must be taken into account is Excelebration had to run on much heavier ground than GV and that 1 weeks rest may make all the difference. Especially when you consider Excelebration had 2 hard races earlier on when flat out chasing home Frankel. What also must be taken into account is that George Vancouver wasn't running against a horses like Wise Dan or Animal Kingdom. He also didn't have Joseph ''what the fuck'' O'Brien on board lol which is a benefit.
contee12345 yes I'm taking the piss lol. Wise Dan ran great on this day and Frankel would have had his hands full...tight turns, no BTrain, firm surface. You while Frankel was spectacular he never ran outside of England and England is the size of Alabama...
Frankel would have smashed the lot of these American, can only run one way, dog trackers.... He didn't race abroad because his trainer was seriously ill and wouldn't have been able to make the journey, he barely made the races held an hour or so away from Newmarket. Horribly sad but it almost seemed the great man was holding on to see the horse retire. Two legends of the turf in perfect harmony. RIP Cecil; truly a giant among men.....
not so wise dan set a track record that day with a 131. you can not beat that time. obviously previously set the record at 132. you are talking about 2 of the fastest horses ever.
Inferior opposition, There was 4 individual Gr1 winning horses in that field in the St James Palace Stakes. Excelebration, Dream Ahead, Grand Prix Boss, Wootten Bassett. Do you just make this stuff up?
thats your opinion and your just as much entitled to it as i am to mine but i suspect frankel would have been even more lethal off a quick early pace.the reason that this tactic was never employed against frankel is that i suspect the trainers of the other horses thought this to be the case therefore the races were run to give their charges the best possible chance of victory
No question and I have enjoyed watching them and admired them. Goldikova in particular. There have been several great horses from across the pond. I followed Frankel’s career and had hoped to see him race at the BC or Dubai. He was impressive to say the least. However he was not there ( disappointing). I would have liked to see it. However if you don’t run the race, you can’t say you would have won. I also think it’s a disadvantage to the foreign horse to have to come to the US for the race. Perhaps the US horses should go over there for some races.......🤔 Just a side note. As you surely know a horse named Invasor. He came from Argentina / Uruguay where he had won the triple crown there. He came to the US and beat the best The US had. Didn’t loose a race and was named Horse of the Year. Very impressive. I think he would have won the US triple Crown. But he didn’t run.... to bad. 🥴 Just so you know, I think Frankel was as great as any also. No doubt.
With regards to So You Think, I think he won the first 2 and ran 3rd conditions in the MC. However, again, knowing the standard of Australian middle distance horses, I seriously doubt he come up against anything like Wise Dan and AK. Furthermore he didn't have to endure a 12 hour flight in between races. Finally, in Australia as I'm sure you know, most horses are run into the ground during the spring carnival. So his main rivals would be suffering much the same fatigue as he was.
My overall point being. If he was going to give his best performance, he would have had to have been given time to acclimatize, rather than 4 days, and probably would have had to have had a longer lay off. As opposed to running on heavy just 2 weeks before. He didn't give his best Excel, but I still think Wise Dan would have won. I just think he would have finished a closer second than being back in 4th.
Sea Bird was a cracking colt, But how many Gr1's did he manage to capture over a mile? He was predominantly a 12f horse. Brigadier Gerard is very similar to Frankel, Very similar and that would have been some race. Mill Reef and Nijinsky are also greats but neither were bred in Europe. As for Lammtarra, Great 3 year old season but so did Workforce in 2010 winning the Derby and Arc should we consider him as a great aswell? IMO Frankel is the most naturally talented racehorse I've ever seen...
Absolutely! I think Frankel is #1 but I can't help but be equally impressed with Sea Bird. The way he won the Arc (after winning the Derby geared down) was extraordinary. It would be like Frankel winning the Champion Stakes (against a similar rated horse in 2nd) by 5 lengths with Queally saluting the crowd. Ribot is another who amazes me. He had so much power it was frightening! And then as you mentioned, Dancing Brave in the Arc with his freakish turn of foot wow... One who in Europe who goes under the radar is Peintre Celebre. I believe he was supremely talented and was the only horse I ever seen with two distinct turns of foot. Golden Fleece could have been anything. Generous on his day was extraordinary. Brigadier Gerard was outstanding. But Frankel for me is probably the best miler. And if he's not, then the Brigadier could be the best horse who ever lived. I wish we could find out! :)
TQ should've just put him in front making the pace but don't force him through gears. He was pushing him like there were only 2 furlongs left and Frankel went from gear to gear accelerating twice in that race when it finally gave up in the last 50 yards and those from off the pace like Zoffany took advantage but if you look after the line Frankel never stops. TQ and SHC both said he idled not tired at all and that is even more amazing. But nevertheless he still won by 1 length which says it all
i agree with your point about about frankel missing the arc,breeders cup and japan not.If you insist on defining a horse through a singular poor performance the same criteria applies to every thoroughbred in history.Wise dan was a deserved winner but would he beat excelbration in the uk probably not.Ability wise there is nothing to choose between them.Wise Dan held all the advantages and it was by no means a romp.
The thing is though, Frankel would have beaten Sea the Stars over any distance on any track. Hence the reason Frankel is higher regarded in this part of the world...
as for your doubts about frankels ability to handle a fast pace excelebration did and frankels superior to him in every respect. He has a higher cruising speed a way better turn of foot plus he maintains that speed longer than any other european racehorse ive ever seen(apologies my knowledge of american racehorses is somewhat limited}.regardind his narrow victory over zoffany the pace of the race was never the problem queally pulled the trigger way too early
So by your logic Rakti would have beaten Frankel on the day Frankel won the Lockinge? You seriously believe that? Comparing times over different generations is ridiculous. Cockney Rebel ran a quicker 8 furlongs than Frankel and Sea the Stars did at Newmarket when they both won there Guineas, Yet do you believe Cockney Rebel would have beaten Frankel in his Guineas win?
And how do you know Frankel wouldn't have relished the faster surface? He'd have relished the high tempo, Look no further than the fractions he was setting at Newmarket in the 2000 Guineas. On all known form, Frankel is in a different galaxy to Wise Dan and anyone who believes otherwise is only kidding themselves. Excelebration had a 13 day turnaround from racing on a bog at Ascot to travelling across the Atlantic to racing on a surface and course he was very unfamiliar with...
obviously was the best horse. wise dan should have been tested after this race. obviously had previously set the track record with a 1:32 time and wise dans 1:31 track record time on a track that is not his normal racing place raises question. obviously would have not given up if wise dan had not have caught him. animal kingdom would not have passed obviously if wise dan was not in the race and would have won again.
You have repeatedly alluded to the fact that you suspect some form of clandestine collaberation to protect frankels unbeaten record whilst not entirely unfeasible the sheer numbers of people that would have to involved render it highly unlikely.Frankels attributes would have been dissected by the other trainers and if they suspected he was vulnerable to a fast pace from the off they would have hit him with one (hard and repeatedly)their knowledge is far greater than ours ever will be.
Wise Dan is a brilliant racehorse but he is no Frankel, There wasn't a horse on the planet to match his ability in those 3 years he graced the course. Wise Dan would have put in a valliant effort but he doesn't possess the tools or the ability to worry Frankel, But nice try...
You can only pick one race in Frankel's entire career which just shows how weak your arguement is. Thats the only time in his entire career that he wasn't impressive but he still won. I suggest you watch the Juddmonte International where he buried St Nicholas Abbey by 7 lengths on the bridle and he put that distance between himself and the field in the space of a furlong and we all know how good St Nicholas Abbey is...
He did lose ground on the turn but that didn't account for all that much IMO I think it was the QEII two weeks before that cooked him. He was over the top and wasn't going to win this after that just 2 weeks before and travelling half way around the world, especially against a field that includes arguably Americas two best horses.
Kudos to Wise Dan, but Animal Kingdom looked like the faster horse to me. He was just unlucky to be blocked in. That burst of speed at the end just need a little more track. If Johnny V rides AK he'll get a clean trip and beats Wise Dan.
What a ridiculous statement. Using a line through Excelebration and Cityscape - Wise Dan would need to improve MASSIVELY to even get Frankel off the bridle and the chances of Wise Dan finding such improvement at his age is very unlikely. In two ways its a double edged sword that Frankel was retired, Its a shame you never got to see what a remarkable racehorse he was in the flesh but its also fortunate for the connections of Wise Dan that he was retired because he would have beat him...
But that alone doesnt come anywhere close to the performance Frankel produced in the Queen Anne Stakes. Destroying Excelebration 11 lengths on the bridle on Good to Soft ground 0.36 seconds outside the track record on ground that should never produce such a time - It was freakish. Even the fractions back it up, His split between the 6 and 7 pole was the quickest fractional produce all week including the two major sprints over 5 and 6 furlongs including Black Caviar...
Invisible Man holds the straight 8 furlong course record at Ascot, Frankel was 0.76 seconds outside of lowering it on ground described Good to Soft in the Queen Anne. I cannot for the life of Me remember a course record being lowered in Europe with soft in the going. Yet would you state Invisible Man is a better miler than Frankel? Get real mate, Your logic is fucking comical...
Frankel wins by 8 under a hold. Excelebration didn't get that close to Frankel in 5 attempts and was beaten by half the course the last time they met. If you want to point to Excelebration to expose Frankel's weakness I could remind you how Animal Kingdom got on in England. He wasn't at his best that day, neither was Excelebration. Draw a form line through Cityscape and you'll see that.
@@Evocati2008 They sure did, and they are brilliant horses, but that is nothing to do with Animal Kingdom. Some Americans and English adapt to each other's racing and some don't. However, with Excelebration, he was running 2 weeks after winning a G1 at the highest level. And with Animal Kingdom, you could argue he ran his race in Dubai and wasn't ready for the acid test of Royal Ascot. But chances are, the straight track caught him out as he couldn't get a breather as he would in America.
Interesting race. Excelebration rated as the "co-third best horse in the world" cannot handle the pace, especially the turns. He finishes 4th, running all-out, with Wise Dan being eased once victory is at hand.
bbmtge he ran completely flat. It takes it out of horses making that trip without a prep run. His stud fees were secured and this is the last race he ever ran. He was about 7lb short of his best in this race.
I missed some of these comments. So, Supreme Owl, I guess the tracks in Europe are as much as 35 lengths slower than thos in the U.S. Funny how you chide about fractions, yet you try to use them to your advantage with Frankel. Funny how Frankel avoided the Breeder's Cup series which just may have cemented his so-called reputation. The Ascot made Black Caviar look ordinary. Now, I have truly heard it form the Euros. You are in a fantasy world of proclamation, only. I just wish I had seen these buffoon remarks earlier.
B Gardiner Another quip. You don't qualify your statement with fact. Nice try. Keep writing. I do remember how you ramble, illogically, for paragraphs at a time. When asked to qualify your statements, you don't because you can't.
B Gardiner Did BC fly 30 hours and 11,000 miles to compete in the Ascot? Was she reported to have not done well on the trip? Did she not sustain a large muscle tear in that race? I fear you don't know what ur looking at. You have a history of this kind of thing. Flat lying to try to make a ridiculous point. A complete unwillingness to argue factual detail. Just nothing but running off at the mouth i.e. "quips". As before, congratulations. You should be proud.
A quip such as "the Ascot (sic) made Black Caviar look ordinary" versus a question "How did Ascot make BC look ordinary?" This is called a question. The BC Championships, in the scheme of things, are a B grade competition. The best horses in the world according to the IFHA race in turf. Turf tracks in the US are an afterthought. Tight circuits built inside the dirt tracks. Black Caviar was lengths off her best and still managed to beat one of the best sprint fillies seen in Europe in a decade or more. And not getting how good Frankel is shows ur ignorance. I guess for some ppl ignorance IS bliss.
B Gardiner I see you are lost...again. I expected more from you. please keep up with the same posting process. Please make sure you do not answer the questions and write absurdities in response. I'm surprised it's taken you this long to respond. Lost in trolling, I assume.
"Animal Kingdom, like a rocket!" He totally would have won. Nevertheless, a great comeback, it's so nice to see Derby winners not only race the next year, but run well (and in Animal Kingdom's case, despite so much!)
I don't think it was the 2 weeks that 'cooked' him, the run wasn't much below the rest of his form but he didn't enjoy going left handed on this tight a track. He's probably better with a little bit of rain too. Wise Dan is the better of the two horses, it's just that Frankel is better than both of them ;) lol
That is horse racing I'm afraid old son. Wise Dan is better than Animal Kingdom though. Animal Kingdom has had a nice long lay off let us not forget. He was entitled to finish like a train.
On this day Dan would have smoked him.Dan was playing with this field ,just watch him look to the grandstand twice before putting his head down.If he had put his head down at the top of the stretch he would have put up a time that may never be beat.The greatest turf miler of all time.
Ok, I'll put it another way then. I dont think there as been a horse bred in Europe in modern history to match the ability of Frankel, Overseas possibly Secretariat but Im sceptical about the use of drugs at that time in the States, Just look at Sec he was built like a bull but thats just my opinion...
My thoughts exactly. I don't see many who put Sec and Drugs in the same sentence, but with all that was going on in the world (heck we supposedly went the moon a few years earlier!) anything is possible in America in the 1970's.. but having said that, I'm still in awe of beasts they produced and if they are legitimately drug-free, they deserve just as much respect as our European greats.
Sea the Stars was a phenomenal horse but his Guineas was nothing special, Beating Delegator a length over a mile isn't brilliant form. The time was very good 1.35 but Cockney Rebel ran a quicker time over the straight 8 of the Rowley Mile than both Frankel and Sea the Stars in the 2007 Guineas, But would you have backed him to beat them both in a race over a mile based on one time produced over a mile? Of course not. IMO Frankel would have beat Sea the Stars over a 8 and 10f - Over 12f who...
Animal Kingdom - would've won this race by a mile had he got a fair break in the running. Just a little room half a furlong out and Wise Dan would've tasted defeat.
You need to go and read up on racing a little bit more because the drivel your posting makes no sense. I don't need to keep up the proclamations on Frankel its there in black and white '' The greatest ever in Europe '' And America hasn't had a miler since Dr Fager or a mile and quarter horse since Secretariat to mention in the same breath. Just listen to Mike Baffert when he was asked about Frankel '' I've never seen anything like him before '' and then Andre Fabre, The master trainer...
Actually it is you who needs to relax and come down to earth. Let's examine an actual race versus a horse running HIS style and against inferior competition. The 2011 St. James...the horse is pressed to run a different style as the jockey seems concerned about the pacesetter. Frankel,again, against inferior competition barely holds on and records a final time of 1:39.24. Too bad he did not come to America. Keep up with your proclamations about Frankel.
Honestly, I love Wise Dan (134) but Frankel (147) would have cruised by him and won by 4 or 5... if he'd have turned up after winning the Champion Stakes on 2 weeks notice, then maybe he'd have won by 2.. which is still impressive against a beast like Wise Dan.. One things for sure, he'd have put major daylight between himself and Excelebration; more than we seen here.
Nope, none of that is for sure, it's pure conjecture. At championship distance, it was Frankel. At a mile, it was that no-nut chestnut slut, Wise Dan. :)
Frankel never showed he could put up a time like this.If Dan would have put his head down at the top of the stretch and not looked to the grandstand twice he would have set a time that have never would have been beaten.4 to 5 lengths my ass.
@@winst0n888 Mate, every handicapper on the planets has Frankel 5-7 lengths superior to Wise Dan, so how on earth could he do something Frankel wouldn't laugh at? Frankel = Better than any horse to ever race in America.
@@leesog3203 Frankel never came close to the times that Dan put down.I guess you are just getting your info from biased handicappers across the pond.To say that Frankel was better than Secretariat is the stupidest thing I ever heard.But at a mile on the turf there was no better ever than Dan and you can tell that to your handicapping mates.The stopwatch does not lie.
@@winst0n888 The stopwatch lies when you assume 1 minute 31 on the fast ground is the same as 1 minute 31 on soft ground. Also, in America, there is a run off, so all times in the history of US Racing are flawed and can't be compared fairy with anywhere else in the world, and that's before we even get into the rampant drug culture that's existed for over 100 years there. Visually, and on the form book, no horse in America can be hailed as superior to Frankel. Ribot, Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard and Frankel where all superior to Secretariat and that horse lost more than those four put together! No one in their right mind believes Frankel could be beaten by any horse in history over One Mile or 10f.
I guess I should know why your bitter, Your racing is falling behind. The quality is dismal compared to that of Europe, Japan and Dubai. And thats just my honest opinion, I'd even have Australia racing as better quality than some of the shit you see in the states. Dismal
Too bad he did not come to the BC, a wise decision to keep him out. all that would have been needed would have been a pacestter for fast early fractions. Thye would have burned him out ala the St. James. He'd have been eaten, alive.
I'm not taking anything away from Wise Dan. The rare burst of speed AK showed is not really the kind horses have time to respond to, but the kind that makes them look like they're standing still. It's a good video because it shows AK looking for room going into the far turn. This horse will thread the needle, when asked, as Johnny V showed in the Derby, but once the rider decided to take the rail he had nowhere to go until the end. Two great horses, different headline.
And I was lucky enough to see Dancing Brave in the flesh who I would definetly post as the number 2 in My all time list in Europe... That 86 Arc run is one of the best performances you will ever see on a racecourse!
comfortably over any distance anywhere in the world. He was unbeatable over a mile, Unbeatable...
I said arguably mate. He's a K. Derby winner that got within a length and 3/4 of the best horse in America for ages. Point of Entry is very good too. I was slightly disappointed that he didn't run to form on Saturday. He was one of the 3 American horses I was looking forward to seeing live.
I suggest you do some form reading, Even on his favoured track and ground Wise Dan could only put two lengths between himself and Excelebration a horse that was unfamiliar with such quick ground and only 13 days previously sauntered away with the QE2 on desperate ground - Wise Dan even had to produce a track record that day to beat the field. I'll give credit where its due, It was a top performance and I'd say probably his finest performance ever over a mile...
who won the race?
I agree. I’d like to see it.
i LOVE that this replay features the race call by trevor Denman. I was present at the track for the BC that year, and Denman called the races, as he should. How can I buy a DVd of the BC races with his call?
Anyone care to note Animal Kingdom's AMAZING run of it? he will be a huge threat on all surfaces next year!
Not really, he ran 2 weeks ago on heavy going having to travel half way across the world round a left handed bend he's never gone on before. I was actually impressed he got so close as 3 lengths with all that. You do realise Frankel beat him 11 last time they met though don't you? Wise Dan was awesome though, I enjoyed that race.
to only go down 2.5 lengths in course record time, The time Excelebration posted was quicker than any mile time Frankel as ever posted yet in there last meeting Frankel destroyed Excelebration by 11 lengths eased down over 8 furlongs. It just shows the type of animal Frankel was. A monster...
Amen brother!
He won a Breeders Cup Turf and this season hes won 2 Gr1's already one in Dubai and one at Epsom, Frankel made him look ordinary. As for your obcession with times, Times mean jack in Europe. Many many ordinary animals hold track records in Europe, Take Cockney Rebel for example he won the 2000 Guineas at Newmarket in 2007 in track record time. Both Frankel and the great Sea the Stars have won it since on the exact same ground in a slower time - Are you going to tell me Cockney Rebel...
I heard the connections of Animal Kingdom are considering a trip to Royal-Ascot with him for the royal meeting in June, 2013 after his spectacular effort here in the BC Mile. I'm assuming the G1 Queen Anne Stakes at 8f is the race they're eying, but I personally think the G1 Prince of Wales's Stakes at 10f would better suit him. Animal Kingdom has that ability to explode off of bends. The Queen Anne is run on the straight mile track, no bends. The Prince of Wales is run on the oval track, though
Wise Dan would of easily...if challenged by Animal Kingdom...pulled away! When will you folks finally give the horse his due?!! Wise Dan is just about as special as they come when it comes to thoroughbred racing. The horse is a "freakish" talent!
What a race!!!
knows, Frankel was never popped the question which was unfortunate. It'd have took a brave man to back against him just watching how he ran way with the Juddmonte International over the the extended 10f at York and the Champion Stakes on desperate ground I don't think 12f would have been a problem - He had that much ability I dont think any distance would have been a problem. Richard Hannon was adamant he should have ran in the July Cup after how he ran the first 4 furlongs on the 2000 Guineas..
1:16 Watch Wise Dan drop low and kick it into another gear! Amazing!
While you make some very valid points, what must be taken into account is Excelebration had to run on much heavier ground than GV and that 1 weeks rest may make all the difference. Especially when you consider Excelebration had 2 hard races earlier on when flat out chasing home Frankel. What also must be taken into account is that George Vancouver wasn't running against a horses like Wise Dan or Animal Kingdom. He also didn't have Joseph ''what the fuck'' O'Brien on board lol which is a benefit.
Wise Dan would have sent him into early retirement as well.
AK's regular jockey was on Wise Dan!
Frankel would have had his hands full if he ran against Wise Dan on this day.
Wise Dan handled Excelebration easily. Excelebration being Frankel's Alydar. It would have been fun to see these two race. But it never happened.
Larry Jones your taking the piss mate
contee12345 yes I'm taking the piss lol. Wise Dan ran great on this day and Frankel would have had his hands full...tight turns, no BTrain, firm surface. You while Frankel was spectacular he never ran outside of England and England is the size of Alabama...
Larry Jones that's an irrelevant point on so many levels
Frankel's connections never had the guts to race him outside his zone.
Frankel would have smashed the lot of these American, can only run one way, dog trackers.... He didn't race abroad because his trainer was seriously ill and wouldn't have been able to make the journey, he barely made the races held an hour or so away from Newmarket. Horribly sad but it almost seemed the great man was holding on to see the horse retire.
Two legends of the turf in perfect harmony. RIP Cecil; truly a giant among men.....
not so wise dan set a track record that day with a 131. you can not beat that time. obviously previously set the record at 132. you are talking about 2 of the fastest horses ever.
I agree. If he had gotten a chance to run, it would have been over.
Inferior opposition, There was 4 individual Gr1 winning horses in that field in the St James Palace Stakes. Excelebration, Dream Ahead, Grand Prix Boss, Wootten Bassett. Do you just make this stuff up?
thats your opinion and your just as much entitled to it as i am to mine but i suspect frankel would have been even more lethal off a quick early pace.the reason that this tactic was never employed against frankel is that i suspect the trainers of the other horses thought this to be the case therefore the races were run to give their charges the best possible chance of victory
Did anyone else get pissed at 0:40 When Moonlight Cloud kinda made contact with AK and make him check back a little?
No question and I have enjoyed watching them and admired them. Goldikova in particular. There have been several great horses from across the pond. I followed Frankel’s career and had hoped to see him race at the BC or Dubai. He was impressive to say the least. However he was not there ( disappointing). I would have liked to see it. However if you don’t run the race, you can’t say you would have won. I also think it’s a disadvantage to the foreign horse to have to come to the US for the race. Perhaps the US horses should go over there for some races.......🤔
Just a side note. As you surely know a horse named Invasor. He came from Argentina / Uruguay where he had won the triple crown there. He came to the US and beat the best The US had. Didn’t loose a race and was named Horse of the Year. Very impressive. I think he would have won the US triple Crown. But he didn’t run.... to bad. 🥴
Just so you know, I think Frankel was as great as any also. No doubt.
With regards to So You Think, I think he won the first 2 and ran 3rd conditions in the MC. However, again, knowing the standard of Australian middle distance horses, I seriously doubt he come up against anything like Wise Dan and AK. Furthermore he didn't have to endure a 12 hour flight in between races. Finally, in Australia as I'm sure you know, most horses are run into the ground during the spring carnival. So his main rivals would be suffering much the same fatigue as he was.
My overall point being. If he was going to give his best performance, he would have had to have been given time to acclimatize, rather than 4 days, and probably would have had to have had a longer lay off. As opposed to running on heavy just 2 weeks before. He didn't give his best Excel, but I still think Wise Dan would have won. I just think he would have finished a closer second than being back in 4th.
Sea Bird was a cracking colt, But how many Gr1's did he manage to capture over a mile? He was predominantly a 12f horse. Brigadier Gerard is very similar to Frankel, Very similar and that would have been some race. Mill Reef and Nijinsky are also greats but neither were bred in Europe. As for Lammtarra, Great 3 year old season but so did Workforce in 2010 winning the Derby and Arc should we consider him as a great aswell? IMO Frankel is the most naturally talented racehorse I've ever seen...
Absolutely! I think Frankel is #1 but I can't help but be equally impressed with Sea Bird. The way he won the Arc (after winning the Derby geared down) was extraordinary. It would be like Frankel winning the Champion Stakes (against a similar rated horse in 2nd) by 5 lengths with Queally saluting the crowd.
Ribot is another who amazes me. He had so much power it was frightening! And then as you mentioned, Dancing Brave in the Arc with his freakish turn of foot wow...
One who in Europe who goes under the radar is Peintre Celebre. I believe he was supremely talented and was the only horse I ever seen with two distinct turns of foot.
Golden Fleece could have been anything. Generous on his day was extraordinary. Brigadier Gerard was outstanding. But Frankel for me is probably the best miler. And if he's not, then the Brigadier could be the best horse who ever lived. I wish we could find out! :)
TQ should've just put him in front making the pace but don't force him through gears. He was pushing him like there were only 2 furlongs left and Frankel went from gear to gear accelerating twice in that race when it finally gave up in the last 50 yards and those from off the pace like Zoffany took advantage but if you look after the line Frankel never stops. TQ and SHC both said he idled not tired at all and that is even more amazing. But nevertheless he still won by 1 length which says it all
i agree with your point about about frankel missing the arc,breeders cup and japan not.If you insist on defining a horse through a singular poor performance the same criteria applies to every thoroughbred in history.Wise dan was a deserved winner but would he beat excelbration in the uk probably not.Ability wise there is nothing to choose between them.Wise Dan held all the advantages and it was by no means a romp.
The thing is though, Frankel would have beaten Sea the Stars over any distance on any track. Hence the reason Frankel is higher regarded in this part of the world...
as for your doubts about frankels ability to handle a fast pace excelebration did and frankels superior to him in every respect. He has a higher cruising speed a way better turn of foot plus he maintains that speed longer than any other european racehorse ive ever seen(apologies my knowledge of american racehorses is somewhat limited}.regardind his narrow victory over zoffany the pace of the race was never the problem queally pulled the trigger way too early
So by your logic Rakti would have beaten Frankel on the day Frankel won the Lockinge? You seriously believe that? Comparing times over different generations is ridiculous. Cockney Rebel ran a quicker 8 furlongs than Frankel and Sea the Stars did at Newmarket when they both won there Guineas, Yet do you believe Cockney Rebel would have beaten Frankel in his Guineas win?
And how do you know Frankel wouldn't have relished the faster surface? He'd have relished the high tempo, Look no further than the fractions he was setting at Newmarket in the 2000 Guineas. On all known form, Frankel is in a different galaxy to Wise Dan and anyone who believes otherwise is only kidding themselves. Excelebration had a 13 day turnaround from racing on a bog at Ascot to travelling across the Atlantic to racing on a surface and course he was very unfamiliar with...
obviously was the best horse. wise dan should have been tested after this race. obviously had previously set the track record with a 1:32 time and wise dans 1:31 track record time on a track that is not his normal racing place raises question. obviously would have not given up if wise dan had not have caught him. animal kingdom would not have passed obviously if wise dan was not in the race and would have won again.
Had Animal Kingdom not been blocked, he would've won.
You have repeatedly alluded to the fact that you suspect some form of clandestine collaberation to protect frankels unbeaten record whilst not entirely unfeasible the sheer numbers of people that would have to involved render it highly unlikely.Frankels attributes would have been dissected by the other trainers and if they suspected he was vulnerable to a fast pace from the off they would have hit him with one (hard and repeatedly)their knowledge is far greater than ours ever will be.
Wise Dan is a brilliant racehorse but he is no Frankel, There wasn't a horse on the planet to match his ability in those 3 years he graced the course. Wise Dan would have put in a valliant effort but he doesn't possess the tools or the ability to worry Frankel, But nice try...
You can only pick one race in Frankel's entire career which just shows how weak your arguement is. Thats the only time in his entire career that he wasn't impressive but he still won. I suggest you watch the Juddmonte International where he buried St Nicholas Abbey by 7 lengths on the bridle and he put that distance between himself and the field in the space of a furlong and we all know how good St Nicholas Abbey is...
Wise Dan beat the milers from GB, but Animal Kingdom was awesome.....
He did lose ground on the turn but that didn't account for all that much IMO I think it was the QEII two weeks before that cooked him. He was over the top and wasn't going to win this after that just 2 weeks before and travelling half way around the world, especially against a field that includes arguably Americas two best horses.
Kudos to Wise Dan, but Animal Kingdom looked like the faster horse to me. He was just unlucky to be blocked in. That burst of speed at the end just need a little more track. If Johnny V rides AK he'll get a clean trip and beats Wise Dan.
What a ridiculous statement. Using a line through Excelebration and Cityscape - Wise Dan would need to improve MASSIVELY to even get Frankel off the bridle and the chances of Wise Dan finding such improvement at his age is very unlikely. In two ways its a double edged sword that Frankel was retired, Its a shame you never got to see what a remarkable racehorse he was in the flesh but its also fortunate for the connections of Wise Dan that he was retired because he would have beat him...
But that alone doesnt come anywhere close to the performance Frankel produced in the Queen Anne Stakes. Destroying Excelebration 11 lengths on the bridle on Good to Soft ground 0.36 seconds outside the track record on ground that should never produce such a time - It was freakish. Even the fractions back it up, His split between the 6 and 7 pole was the quickest fractional produce all week including the two major sprints over 5 and 6 furlongs including Black Caviar...
Invisible Man holds the straight 8 furlong course record at Ascot, Frankel was 0.76 seconds outside of lowering it on ground described Good to Soft in the Queen Anne. I cannot for the life of Me remember a course record being lowered in Europe with soft in the going. Yet would you state Invisible Man is a better miler than Frankel? Get real mate, Your logic is fucking comical...
It just confirms what schlubs Frankel was beating all year long.
Frankel wins by 8 under a hold. Excelebration didn't get that close to Frankel in 5 attempts and was beaten by half the course the last time they met. If you want to point to Excelebration to expose Frankel's weakness I could remind you how Animal Kingdom got on in England. He wasn't at his best that day, neither was Excelebration. Draw a form line through Cityscape and you'll see that.
Joshua Doherty a proper comment 👌🏼
didn't Tepin and Lady Aurelia win at Ascot this past season?
@@Evocati2008 They sure did, and they are brilliant horses, but that is nothing to do with Animal Kingdom. Some Americans and English adapt to each other's racing and some don't. However, with Excelebration, he was running 2 weeks after winning a G1 at the highest level. And with Animal Kingdom, you could argue he ran his race in Dubai and wasn't ready for the acid test of Royal Ascot. But chances are, the straight track caught him out as he couldn't get a breather as he would in America.
Honestly, I thought Animal Kingdom did amazing. I think he would have won if he didn't get stuck in so much traffic.
Interesting race. Excelebration rated as the "co-third best horse in the world" cannot handle the pace, especially the turns. He finishes 4th, running all-out, with Wise Dan being eased once victory is at hand.
bbmtge he ran completely flat. It takes it out of horses making that trip without a prep run. His stud fees were secured and this is the last race he ever ran. He was about 7lb short of his best in this race.
Frankel would have won this race by 5L easy
I missed some of these comments. So, Supreme Owl, I guess the tracks in Europe are as much as 35 lengths slower than thos in the U.S. Funny how you chide about fractions, yet you try to use them to your advantage with Frankel. Funny how Frankel avoided the Breeder's Cup series which just may have cemented his so-called reputation. The Ascot made Black Caviar look ordinary. Now, I have truly heard it form the Euros. You are in a fantasy world of proclamation, only. I just wish I had seen these buffoon remarks earlier.
How exactly did RA make Black Caviar look "ordinary"? I fear you don't know what ur looking at.
B Gardiner Another quip. You don't qualify your statement with fact. Nice try. Keep writing. I do remember how you ramble, illogically, for paragraphs at a time. When asked to qualify your statements, you don't because you can't.
B Gardiner Did BC fly 30 hours and 11,000 miles to compete in the Ascot? Was she reported to have not done well on the trip? Did she not sustain a large muscle tear in that race? I fear you don't know what ur looking at. You have a history of this kind of thing. Flat lying to try to make a ridiculous point. A complete unwillingness to argue factual detail. Just nothing but running off at the mouth i.e. "quips". As before, congratulations. You should be proud.
A quip such as "the Ascot (sic) made Black Caviar look ordinary" versus a question "How did Ascot make BC look ordinary?" This is called a question. The BC Championships, in the scheme of things, are a B grade competition. The best horses in the world according to the IFHA race in turf. Turf tracks in the US are an afterthought. Tight circuits built inside the dirt tracks. Black Caviar was lengths off her best and still managed to beat one of the best sprint fillies seen in Europe in a decade or more. And not getting how good Frankel is shows ur ignorance. I guess for some ppl ignorance IS bliss.
B Gardiner I see you are lost...again. I expected more from you. please keep up with the same posting process. Please make sure you do not answer the questions and write absurdities in response. I'm surprised it's taken you this long to respond. Lost in trolling, I assume.
"Animal Kingdom, like a rocket!" He totally would have won. Nevertheless, a great comeback, it's so nice to see Derby winners not only race the next year, but run well (and in Animal Kingdom's case, despite so much!)
BS. If Dan would have been challenged he would have set a world record.
I wouldn't say he is better than Ak. I think for sure AK would have won if he didn't get in so much traffic.
You need to read form alot better, If you could you'd understand that Frankel is in a different galaxy to Wise Dan...
I don't think it was the 2 weeks that 'cooked' him, the run wasn't much below the rest of his form but he didn't enjoy going left handed on this tight a track. He's probably better with a little bit of rain too. Wise Dan is the better of the two horses, it's just that Frankel is better than both of them ;) lol
That is horse racing I'm afraid old son. Wise Dan is better than Animal Kingdom though. Animal Kingdom has had a nice long lay off let us not forget. He was entitled to finish like a train.
Frankel would have won this race easy!
On this day Dan would have smoked him.Dan was playing with this field ,just watch him look to the grandstand twice before putting his head down.If he had put his head down at the top of the stretch he would have put up a time that may never be beat.The greatest turf miler of all time.
If so ....... where was he?
rbmeadows same answer why all the so called best horses stateside don’t travel over to Europe to race
@@davidzly We sent Tepin over. She took care of business.
WINST0N888 and how many horses have we sent over and done the business in recent years? A lot more that one
Dude chill it's not that serious i was just commenting. For all I know WD could have reppelled AK's bid just a thought no need to get all butt hurt.
Ok, I'll put it another way then. I dont think there as been a horse bred in Europe in modern history to match the ability of Frankel, Overseas possibly Secretariat but Im sceptical about the use of drugs at that time in the States, Just look at Sec he was built like a bull but thats just my opinion...
My thoughts exactly. I don't see many who put Sec and Drugs in the same sentence, but with all that was going on in the world (heck we supposedly went the moon a few years earlier!) anything is possible in America in the 1970's.. but having said that, I'm still in awe of beasts they produced and if they are legitimately drug-free, they deserve just as much respect as our European greats.
Sea the Stars was a phenomenal horse but his Guineas was nothing special, Beating Delegator a length over a mile isn't brilliant form. The time was very good 1.35 but Cockney Rebel ran a quicker time over the straight 8 of the Rowley Mile than both Frankel and Sea the Stars in the 2007 Guineas, But would you have backed him to beat them both in a race over a mile based on one time produced over a mile? Of course not. IMO Frankel would have beat Sea the Stars over a 8 and 10f - Over 12f who...
Yeah...right! Excuses, excuses! Geez...
Oooh', we got another internet tough guy making threats. Too funny!
Animal Kingdom - would've won this race by a mile had he got a fair break in the running. Just a little room half a furlong out and Wise Dan would've tasted defeat.
You need to go and read up on racing a little bit more because the drivel your posting makes no sense. I don't need to keep up the proclamations on Frankel its there in black and white '' The greatest ever in Europe '' And America hasn't had a miler since Dr Fager or a mile and quarter horse since Secretariat to mention in the same breath. Just listen to Mike Baffert when he was asked about Frankel '' I've never seen anything like him before '' and then Andre Fabre, The master trainer...
Wise Dan is the reason Frankel's connections retired him...FEAR of being embarrassed when actually facing 'real' competition.
Actually it is you who needs to relax and come down to earth. Let's examine an actual race versus a horse running HIS style and against inferior competition. The 2011 St. James...the horse is pressed to run a different style as the jockey seems concerned about the pacesetter. Frankel,again, against inferior competition barely holds on and records a final time of 1:39.24. Too bad he did not come to America. Keep up with your proclamations about Frankel.
cry me a river
You know Animal Kingdom might have won it he had gotten free earlier
Honestly, I love Wise Dan (134) but Frankel (147) would have cruised by him and won by 4 or 5... if he'd have turned up after winning the Champion Stakes on 2 weeks notice, then maybe he'd have won by 2.. which is still impressive against a beast like Wise Dan.. One things for sure, he'd have put major daylight between himself and Excelebration; more than we seen here.
Nope, none of that is for sure, it's pure conjecture. At championship distance, it was Frankel. At a mile, it was that no-nut chestnut slut, Wise Dan. :)
Frankel never showed he could put up a time like this.If Dan would have put his head down at the top of the stretch and not looked to the grandstand twice he would have set a time that have never would have been beaten.4 to 5 lengths my ass.
@@winst0n888 Mate, every handicapper on the planets has Frankel 5-7 lengths superior to Wise Dan, so how on earth could he do something Frankel wouldn't laugh at? Frankel = Better than any horse to ever race in America.
@@leesog3203 Frankel never came close to the times that Dan put down.I guess you are just getting your info from biased handicappers across the pond.To say that Frankel was better than Secretariat is the stupidest thing I ever heard.But at a mile on the turf there was no better ever than Dan and you can tell that to your handicapping mates.The stopwatch does not lie.
@@winst0n888 The stopwatch lies when you assume 1 minute 31 on the fast ground is the same as 1 minute 31 on soft ground. Also, in America, there is a run off, so all times in the history of US Racing are flawed and can't be compared fairy with anywhere else in the world, and that's before we even get into the rampant drug culture that's existed for over 100 years there.
Visually, and on the form book, no horse in America can be hailed as superior to Frankel. Ribot, Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard and Frankel where all superior to Secretariat and that horse lost more than those four put together! No one in their right mind believes Frankel could be beaten by any horse in history over One Mile or 10f.
I guess I should know why your bitter, Your racing is falling behind. The quality is dismal compared to that of Europe, Japan and Dubai. And thats just my honest opinion, I'd even have Australia racing as better quality than some of the shit you see in the states. Dismal
Too bad he did not come to the BC, a wise decision to keep him out. all that would have been needed would have been a pacestter for fast early fractions. Thye would have burned him out ala the St. James. He'd have been eaten, alive.
Obviously European racing is rigged...anyone with common freaking sense get's that.