Lets just all take a minute to thank Justin, he does an amazing job giving us all some very professional dirt coverage. You make a lof of our work days and drives a lot better thanks Justin
Sammy has experimented with coil over cars and won some big races in the 80’s. I’m not surprised at this move. Sammy has always been on the cutting edge regarding innovation and sometimes that’s been good and sometimes not so good. Great show!
I remember those cars and the mixed bag of success he had with them . They seemed to work best on very slick tracks and when they did work they worked really well .
Yes he was fast in the 80's with the Coil car. He was fast in practice considering he was in the first group, He was going out early in qualifying so that would of put him up in the front for speed. To bad the u-joint broke!
I worked at challenge chassis, and after that American challenge, welding and building sprint cars, and i was a mechanic on a sprint car at Knoxville the whole time. they were experimenting with coil over cars way back then. I’ve seen coil over cars, coil over and tubes on the same car cars, reverse tube cars, stack tube cars and nothing seems to ever work as well as a standard torsion bar car . if they ain’t got them figured out in the last 62 years then it’s a safe bet it’s not the next big thing . just ask all the nationals winners for the past 60 years.
The giant wing on top really reduces the advantages of coilovers or any other setup for that matter. The wing is absolutely everything. Now I don't understand the non wing guys, there's definitely room for improvement there.
I helped out on a 410 winged sprint car with a family friend that was a 5 time track champ and he taught me all sorts of stuff. he would have us preload the right rear bar just before he was getting pushed off because there was something he liked or didn't like about the track.... he was lights out fast on a dry slick blue grooved track. He just had this setup and he would move the wing forward on the slide to give him more forward slide...... sometimes I thought he should have left something alone or why that tire?? He proved me wrong pretty much every time..... One night he rolled out for hot laps and the car was blubbering and he barely made it back around and we tore into the fuel system and everything was right....... he all the sudden slapped his forehead and said that he knew what it was. During the week he had serviced the dial a jet which was used to bring the proper amount of fuel to the engine, there are like 12 little "pills" that have a precision drilled hole to control the fuel to the fuel injection...... he had put the pills in upside down, flipped them over and wah-lah cleared right up.........
Ditto on applauding innovation. It's been awhile since anybody threw anything way outside the box at the sport. No surprise Sammy is involved. Love him or hate him, he's been one of the best drivers ever and one smart dude.
As others have said Sammy, Kinser, Blaney and a few others experimented with all coil cars decades back as I remember looking at them at L'ville outlaw show back then. I was told back then they were really good on smooth slick surfaces. I had wondered with the shock advancements if coils would be a more viable option today. I had noticed a Flea post on May 8th with a picture of the little Chalk Stix bars used on the rear arms and questioned at the time if it was for coil or cantilever and had to wait and see.
The wing greatly reduces the advantages of a coilover or any other setup for that matter. You really only need an elementary level understanding of chassis setup/suspension geometry in sprint car racing.
That coil over car is pretty cool looking. I ran a cast iron 360 series in the NW and we did winged asphalt/winged dirt/non wing dirt all in the same season. I had a maybe mid 90’s j&j that was designed as coil front torsion rear. When we ran asphalt we pulled the rear torsion and ran 4 coils. It worked well with the extra weight of the cast iron and the fact I could use the same chassis on all the different configurations we ran.
Sammy’s car you described exactly as I would have … I love innovation… I think Flea’s talent is yet undiscovered ( I’m aware he’s done kick ass stuff) lol I want to see them thrive
I remember sometime ago, JJ Yeley was driving a non-winging coil over car. I know the midget that year had coil over shocks and maybe the sprint car did too. They said it was very difficult to set up and if you missed you missed by a mile.
Sprint car/midget guys are amateurs on chassis setup/ and suspension geometry. Even at the highest level they have a relatively elementary level of understanding.
The Non Wing cars JJ made popular, and most Midgets are coil over front/torsion bar rear. The exception to that is the Beast dirt Sliver Crown cars. They are coil over on all 4 corners.
Strolling the pits at Florence as I watched this. Another packed pits for the weekend. To add there's a lot more open wheel modified cars than normal. That no entry fee for them has brought them far and wide.
It's time for a chassis builder to make the next big move in chassis design. I am an engineer and have raced sprint cars and I never liked that the sprint car shocks used so little travel. There's not much quality in the damping if the shaft barely moves and moves so slowly. Would like to see a simple leverage system that let a shock move thru several inches of travel at much higher speeds.
I have to agree. The old buggy type suspension only works to a degree.... No , if you're gonna run just one track , it's the way to go. But if you run a circuit of many different tracks Torsion bar is the way.
Tobias and others experimented with cantilever coilover front ends in the modified ranks way back in the '70s. Weld Gremlins come to mind as being very successful but once torsion bars were legalized everybody seemed to go that way
What was up with that really bad move by Chase Randall on Justin Peck? Trying to take him out? Bummed for Holmes, finally has a great qualifying run and because of the heavy invert for the heat, doesn't make the A main. 8 car invert is steep, 4 is reasonable.
I love seeing new things. Would love to see this or any other innovative setup work. Sprint cars have gotten too complacent with setups, would love to see Sammy or anyone else build something better and force the field to try new things.
They'd have to take the wings off. The wing greatly reduces the advantages of more intricate setups. I'm surprised at the lack of innovation in non wing racing, but the reality is even the top crew chiefs in sprint car racing have a relatively elementary level understanding of chassis setup and suspension geometry. There's a lot of learning that needs to be done before you'll see any advancements.
Im really surprised why coilover sprints havent come on yet. Noeth east dirt mods have basically thrown torsion out the window and you will get destroyed if not on coils
Is there anyplace we could see more of Sammys car? Would like to see how that right front spring/shock is mounted. I still don't know why someone hasn't tried an independent suspension on the front instead of a solid front axle, other than you would have to run coils, not bars. A solid axle has to transfer all movement from 1 side to the other, bars or coils. I think Sammy might have tried one on another coil car he had back in the 80's.
The wing greatly reduces the advantages of coilovers or independent suspension. A solid front axle is a better setup 90% of the time. You really only need an elementary level understanding of chassis setup in sprint car racing.
Independent suspension has been against the rules since 1973. Don Edmunds built a Midget with independent suspension and its been against the rules in Sprintcars and Midgets ever since
@@kyleolson279 I guess I don't have that "elementary level of chassis setup" that you have. Your reply is a little confusing though, first you said the wing (airfoil) reduces the "advantages" of independent suspension, and then say that the solid axle is better "90% of the time". What are the advantages of the independent suspension that you mention and what 10% of the time is it better and why not the rest of the time? Does the same hold true for a traditional sprint car that has no wing (airfoil)? Thank you for enlightening me.
@@josecramer5769 If you have an understanding of what the wing does you should understand why the advantages of an independent suspension (or any other intricate setup) is reduced. Two opposing forces. If you spoke with anyone that was successful racing a winged modified or late model they could really enlighten you further. I say 90% of the time because it's dirt track racing and if you know anything about the discipline conditions can widely vary, therefore there is exceptions to the rule. I definitely think there is advancements that could be made to the non wing cars, but that would require a lot of studying and learning by the top crew chiefs and chassis builders in the sport. I don't mean to be demeaning but that's the reality. Virtually nothing has changed on sprint cars in decades. There's a lot of catching up to do for anyone in sprint car racing to learn about the handling dynamics of racecars.
The Knoxville Nationals is not the place to do experimenting with chassis geometry! Flea is probably just trying to get some exposure for his idea. Sammy won't even make the Saturday show,so this is a nothing burger. If you want to read about real innovation, look up Gary Balough's Syracuse Nationals win in the Batmobile years ago. The rules for building a sprint car today are so limited that you can't do anything way different.
I agree 100%. Seems like kind of a waste of everyone elses time waiting for them to finish messing around. Why couldn't they test and tune at a regular weekly show somewhere? And if they were coming out with some "experimental stuff" seems like they should have had the regular stuff dialed ahead of time .....like the U joint and the brakes for example
Sammy was my niegbor in Germantown Tn. back in The day,great to see him not just show up but the old dog has new tricks. Love The Florence Y'all call out, close to home always looking forward to The North/ South showdown be rooting for RTG to bé The Man tho. Gotta be Larson,heck of a tough row to hoe tho.
Isn’t Dave blaney known for messing with some these setups from time to time I don’t think I’ve seen it since he’s got his own car he runs at Sharon weekly but I swore he used to run a coil over when he was traveling several years ago.
The lack of chassis construction/suspension geometry/set-up innovation in sprint car racing revolves around the wing. Two opposing forces. Now I don't understand the non wing guys. They could really benefit from going to even elementary level chassis setup school.
The wing on top really cancels out a lot of the advantages on this car Sammy's driving. It would be much more interesting to see the car go non wing racing.
Just my opinion, qualifying was sandbag city. When most of the field isn’t trying to be the fast, but position themself so they start near the front of the heat race something needs to change. Change the invert to 4 instead of 8. This format may of worked years ago but things are to competitive today for this silliness.
You think people are sand bagging in qualifying at the Knoxville Nationals when there are 200 event points on the line? The track fell off a cliff that’s why they were slow on the speed charts.
okay im thinking someone is telling something wrong here on the ujoint, sammy is not the caliber of builder to let that happen. i haven't raced since the 80s and basically built and maintained my own stuff. my street cars from the old light to light stuff in the old day, to drag cars to dirt latemodels, when we put a ujoint in that has clips we always hit the cap or clip with the welder, just one quick spot on each side, same with the oil pump pickup on the wet sump cars, no one i ever knew depended on clips or press on to hold something that critical.
I said Gio Scelzi instead of Donny Schatz in the Knoxville open... 🤦♂ Also, grab DIRTRACKR merch here: shop.dirtrackr.com/
In your defense, Scelzi looked like Knoxville Schatz last night.
Lets just all take a minute to thank Justin, he does an amazing job giving us all some very professional dirt coverage. You make a lof of our work days and drives a lot better thanks Justin
Sammy has experimented with coil over cars and won some big races in the 80’s. I’m not surprised at this move. Sammy has always been on the cutting edge regarding innovation and sometimes that’s been good and sometimes not so good. Great show!
I remember those cars and the mixed bag of success he had with them . They seemed to work best on very slick tracks and when they did work they worked really well .
Yes he was fast in the 80's with the Coil car. He was fast in practice considering he was in the first group, He was going out early in qualifying so that would of put him up in the front for speed. To bad the u-joint broke!
IIRC Stevie Smith also had some pretty good success in coil over packages. I'm sure there are more drivers to list. lol
Stevie Smith rocked them as well
I worked at challenge chassis, and after that American challenge, welding and building sprint cars, and i was a mechanic on a sprint car at Knoxville the whole time. they were experimenting with coil over cars way back then. I’ve seen coil over cars, coil over and tubes on the same car cars, reverse tube cars, stack tube cars and nothing seems to ever work as well as a standard torsion bar car . if they ain’t got them figured out in the last 62 years then it’s a safe bet it’s not the next big thing . just ask all the nationals winners for the past 60 years.
The giant wing on top really reduces the advantages of coilovers or any other setup for that matter. The wing is absolutely everything. Now I don't understand the non wing guys, there's definitely room for improvement there.
Never say Never..
I helped out on a 410 winged sprint car with a family friend that was a 5 time track champ and he taught me all sorts of stuff. he would have us preload the right rear bar just before he was getting pushed off because there was something he liked or didn't like about the track.... he was lights out fast on a dry slick blue grooved track. He just had this setup and he would move the wing forward on the slide to give him more forward slide...... sometimes I thought he should have left something alone or why that tire?? He proved me wrong pretty much every time..... One night he rolled out for hot laps and the car was blubbering and he barely made it back around and we tore into the fuel system and everything was right....... he all the sudden slapped his forehead and said that he knew what it was. During the week he had serviced the dial a jet which was used to bring the proper amount of fuel to the engine, there are like 12 little "pills" that have a precision drilled hole to control the fuel to the fuel injection...... he had put the pills in upside down, flipped them over and wah-lah cleared right up.........
Sammy's mind is a beautiful thing!
Go Sammy! Always been my favorite!
Keep up the great work Justin!
Great coverage. Best of luck for Sammy and that coil over!!
Great info. As a dirt tracker who drifts. Coilovers are exciting. But also know it's pretty new. Excited to see how it goes.
Ditto on applauding innovation. It's been awhile since anybody threw anything way outside the box at the sport. No surprise Sammy is involved. Love him or hate him, he's been one of the best drivers ever and one smart dude.
As others have said Sammy, Kinser, Blaney and a few others experimented with all coil cars decades back as I remember looking at them at L'ville outlaw show back then. I was told back then they were really good on smooth slick surfaces. I had wondered with the shock advancements if coils would be a more viable option today.
I had noticed a Flea post on May 8th with a picture of the little Chalk Stix bars used on the rear arms and questioned at the time if it was for coil or cantilever and had to wait and see.
The wing greatly reduces the advantages of a coilover or any other setup for that matter. You really only need an elementary level understanding of chassis setup/suspension geometry in sprint car racing.
That coil over car is pretty cool looking. I ran a cast iron 360 series in the NW and we did winged asphalt/winged dirt/non wing dirt all in the same season. I had a maybe mid 90’s j&j that was designed as coil front torsion rear. When we ran asphalt we pulled the rear torsion and ran 4 coils. It worked well with the extra weight of the cast iron and the fact I could use the same chassis on all the different configurations we ran.
Sammy’s car you described exactly as I would have … I love innovation… I think Flea’s talent is yet undiscovered ( I’m aware he’s done kick ass stuff) lol I want to see them thrive
I remember sometime ago, JJ Yeley was driving a non-winging coil over car. I know the midget that year had coil over shocks and maybe the sprint car did too. They said it was very difficult to set up and if you missed you missed by a mile.
Sprint car/midget guys are amateurs on chassis setup/ and suspension geometry. Even at the highest level they have a relatively elementary level of understanding.
The Non Wing cars JJ made popular, and most Midgets are coil over front/torsion bar rear.
The exception to that is the Beast dirt Sliver Crown cars. They are coil over on all 4 corners.
We ran a coil over sprint car with United racing club in 2000 to 2002 with success. We also ran a midget on coil overs as well with success.
Frome the dude that help come up with the original bead locks this doesn't surprise me.🏁🏁🤙
And the use of titanium bolts. Remember before titanium bolts became standard they used to drill out the center of steel bolts.
Strolling the pits at Florence as I watched this. Another packed pits for the weekend. To add there's a lot more open wheel modified cars than normal. That no entry fee for them has brought them far and wide.
Would love to see a special daily show tomorrow!
Grew up racing 1/4 midgets with Flea. Definitely cool seeing he’s still living the dream
It's time for a chassis builder to make the next big move in chassis design. I am an engineer and have raced sprint cars and I never liked that the sprint car shocks used so little travel. There's not much quality in the damping if the shaft barely moves and moves so slowly. Would like to see a simple leverage system that let a shock move thru several inches of travel at much higher speeds.
Great show. We think the concept, Sammy car, is cool. Best of luck to them. Thanks for your daily info.
I have to agree. The old buggy type suspension only works to a degree.... No , if you're gonna run just one track , it's the way to go. But if you run a circuit of many different tracks Torsion bar is the way.
Tobias and others experimented with cantilever coilover front ends in the modified ranks way back in the '70s. Weld Gremlins come to mind as being very successful but once torsion bars were legalized everybody seemed to go that way
I was at the USMTS show last night and HOLY COW it was a close finish. 0.043 second gap between Jake O'Neil and Jim Chisholm at the finish.
Crazy to me that Sammy Swindell can still jump in a car and race, when I saw him race 40 years ago I’d never imagine he’d still be driving today.
That resurfaced track throwing goats for loops
This is what happens when guitar players design Sprint Cars. We’re good at pentatonic scales. 😊
dam right.
The swindel car would make a good story in itself. The right front could be a whole show.
Love this idea and trying it also.
What was up with that really bad move by Chase Randall on Justin Peck? Trying to take him out?
Bummed for Holmes, finally has a great qualifying run and because of the heavy invert for the heat, doesn't make the A main. 8 car invert is steep, 4 is reasonable.
*8 inversion is rough. Tanner missed by 1. Those darn what if's
Invert already in an A main transfer spot? Cmon now, I too think 8 is steep but ya gotta be on it for sprint cars biggest race of the year.
I despise inverts! The second teared teams are extremely good so why qualify, just draw a starting spot..
What super late models used to run back in the 90's.
i am surprised that there not more coil over cars with adjustable shocks a couple clicks and a spring adj, with a few turns
Well maybe Jacob Allen might be the dark horse 🐎
Austin Kirkpatricks Late model that had the straight front axle was pretty cool. Shame they shut that down immediately
Yes, it was very good and too competitive and they outlawed it. Love innovation like that.
I love seeing new things. Would love to see this or any other innovative setup work. Sprint cars have gotten too complacent with setups, would love to see Sammy or anyone else build something better and force the field to try new things.
They'd have to take the wings off. The wing greatly reduces the advantages of more intricate setups. I'm surprised at the lack of innovation in non wing racing, but the reality is even the top crew chiefs in sprint car racing have a relatively elementary level understanding of chassis setup and suspension geometry. There's a lot of learning that needs to be done before you'll see any advancements.
Night 2, Yungmoney shows the way 👍🏻
jj yeley ran coil overs at manzy years ago
I would say top 5, maybe 7, are locked in for Saturday. Could say Allen maybe is a lock, but it would be a stretch.
400 here!
Hey there has been an announcement about non wing sprit cars being at Montpellier motor speedway in Indiana on Sept 14th 2024
Leverage design ? Good idea
It would fun to know the "theory" behind right front of Sammy's car.
Im really surprised why coilover sprints havent come on yet. Noeth east dirt mods have basically thrown torsion out the window and you will get destroyed if not on coils
Anthony Macri had no problems pass in cars as he came from 20th to 10th in A main
Cap Henry in the 33w
Hey bud I think you messed up the beginning. about who was out....LOL Just busting your chops. Keep up the good work.
What did I screw up?
@@DIRTRACKR you mentioned Scelzi instead of Schatz.
1:47 around there.
Ah shit. My script says Donny Schatz and I just ignored it. 🤦♂️
@@DIRTRACKRDon't worry your the best out there 👍💪
This is not news Sammy ran coil cars before he was working on this for a long time
Is there anyplace we could see more of Sammys car? Would like to see how that right front spring/shock is mounted. I still don't know why someone hasn't tried an independent suspension on the front instead of a solid front axle, other than you would have to run coils, not bars. A solid axle has to transfer all movement from 1 side to the other, bars or coils. I think Sammy might have tried one on another coil car he had back in the 80's.
The wing greatly reduces the advantages of coilovers or independent suspension. A solid front axle is a better setup 90% of the time. You really only need an elementary level understanding of chassis setup in sprint car racing.
Independent suspension has been against the rules since 1973.
Don Edmunds built a Midget with independent suspension and its been against the rules in Sprintcars and Midgets ever since
@@mjriemen I did not know that, I guess that is the reason, thank you!
@@kyleolson279 I guess I don't have that "elementary level of chassis setup" that you have. Your reply is a little confusing though, first you said the wing (airfoil) reduces the "advantages" of independent suspension, and then say that the solid axle is better "90% of the time". What are the advantages of the independent suspension that you mention and what 10% of the time is it better and why not the rest of the time? Does the same hold true for a traditional sprint car that has no wing (airfoil)? Thank you for enlightening me.
@@josecramer5769 If you have an understanding of what the wing does you should understand why the advantages of an independent suspension (or any other intricate setup) is reduced. Two opposing forces. If you spoke with anyone that was successful racing a winged modified or late model they could really enlighten you further. I say 90% of the time because it's dirt track racing and if you know anything about the discipline conditions can widely vary, therefore there is exceptions to the rule. I definitely think there is advancements that could be made to the non wing cars, but that would require a lot of studying and learning by the top crew chiefs and chassis builders in the sport. I don't mean to be demeaning but that's the reality. Virtually nothing has changed on sprint cars in decades. There's a lot of catching up to do for anyone in sprint car racing to learn about the handling dynamics of racecars.
The Knoxville Nationals is not the place to do experimenting with chassis geometry! Flea is probably just trying to get some exposure for his idea. Sammy won't even make the Saturday show,so this is a nothing burger. If you want to read about real innovation, look up Gary Balough's Syracuse Nationals win in the Batmobile years ago. The rules for building a sprint car today are so limited that you can't do anything way different.
I agree 100%. Seems like kind of a waste of everyone elses time waiting for them to finish messing around. Why couldn't they test and tune at a regular weekly show somewhere? And if they were coming out with some "experimental stuff" seems like they should have had the regular stuff dialed ahead of time .....like the U joint and the brakes for example
Would have been nice if the Outlaw drivers would have shown up to Knoxville over the weekend. 😂😂 High Limit guys made them look stupid
Sammy was my niegbor in Germantown Tn. back in The day,great to see him not just show up but the old dog has new tricks. Love The Florence Y'all call out, close to home always looking forward to The North/ South showdown be rooting for RTG to bé The Man tho. Gotta be Larson,heck of a tough row to hoe tho.
good
Isn’t Dave blaney known for messing with some these setups from time to time I don’t think I’ve seen it since he’s got his own car he runs at Sharon weekly but I swore he used to run a coil over when he was traveling several years ago.
The lack of chassis construction/suspension geometry/set-up innovation in sprint car racing revolves around the wing. Two opposing forces. Now I don't understand the non wing guys. They could really benefit from going to even elementary level chassis setup school.
Coils aren’t new, in the 80’s many people including Sammy tried them but it never worked well enough to proliferate.
Just like these guys are saying Sammy always trying something
He knows. You don't have to say it.
The wing on top really cancels out a lot of the advantages on this car Sammy's driving. It would be much more interesting to see the car go non wing racing.
Sammy ditched that idea back in the 90s He wasn’t going anywhere with it
Just my opinion, qualifying was sandbag city. When most of the field isn’t trying to be the fast, but position themself so they start near the front of the heat race something needs to change. Change the invert to 4 instead of 8. This format may of worked years ago but things are to competitive today for this silliness.
You think people are sand bagging in qualifying at the Knoxville Nationals when there are 200 event points on the line? The track fell off a cliff that’s why they were slow on the speed charts.
Just say you don't have the slightest idea of how the format works instead of that word diarrhea.
@@jeremymoser2558 I know exactly how the format works, it isn’t complicated it’s stupid.
Sammy is a FOOL.
okay im thinking someone is telling something wrong here on the ujoint, sammy is not the caliber of builder to let that happen. i haven't raced since the 80s and basically built and maintained my own stuff. my street cars from the old light to light stuff in the old day, to drag cars to dirt latemodels, when we put a ujoint in that has clips we always hit the cap or clip with the welder, just one quick spot on each side, same with the oil pump pickup on the wet sump cars, no one i ever knew depended on clips or press on to hold something that critical.
Id rather see swindell in a typical car. knoxville to test something new? ok
Coilover shocks are nothing new. Midget, sprint cars, and dirt champ cars have run them in the past.