Please do more research on the engravers ball to fully understand how it works .Also Dspiae item number SV-VO1 is the little adjuster tool. I have many friends around the world who praise the ball for model work . The reason the top spins is so when you are engraving or painting you have it tilted you can turn it easily to paint without moving your hand much . I am 73 and build a lot . It works great on Gundams when you are scribing new lines or hold a piece and or drilling .04 holes. I have the Vevor version ,also a box of M4 pins and fish tank filter tuning. Depending on how you use it you can hold items from the outside or inside . It also works great when painting a ship for a ship in the bottle. Please keep up your good work ,I have learned much from you .
@@3414mercury Hi Sir., certainly happy to help you out anytime, I have used this one for 25 years and is my second one. Wore the first out, although this one has seen better days with spots of Super glue, paint etc.on it, been through the War. My weapon of choice is the PanaVise no. 396 6" Light Duty "Multi-angle" Vise with a standard base. This is ALL metal and heavy with slip on neoprene jaw pads, I have used it for Armor kits, Aircraft etc. Excellent for holding parts, sawing, drilling and assembling with tremendous versatility all-around. This and my Optivisor and I am ready to roll, happy Modeling my friend.......
Nice review! It is kind of fun being one of your viewers that doesn't generally build models because I get to see things that I didn't know existed or things that are used across many hobbies and craft work. Sometimes I really finds some gems or even some really good deals on tools. That Dispiae vise is pretty cool and a number of companies make those for engraving, watch repair, jewelry and they do make larger and heavier ones. There's definitely a couple in there that I'll have to check out and maybe add to may collection of tiny vises. These little vises are handy for all kinds of things.
I have the DSPIAE version of the HobbyMio one. The one neat feature that the DSPIAE version has that the HM version doesn't is that the vise can actually be removed from the holder. So it's both a desk vise and a hand one like the small one you have in the beginning.
The Dspiae Ball Vise is identical to a tool I used in jewelry for engraving. It spins on its own if you are using a tool to cut out a channel in plastic and it curves. So you can turn the top as you an engraving or cutting a panel line or channel. Hopefully I am making sense. Well done video.
Very interesting. Never heard of engraving vise before or seen one till this video. Ive had a Panavise set for a really time, came with 2 different base a nice clamp style and round weighted one, also came with a number of different heads for different jaw options. Found it at a flea market. Cool video, love the channel. Thank you BR
I've got several of the 'Schraubstock' with clamp in use, as my tables and work surfaces are made of wood, so suction cups don't work. They are sturdy and fast and easy to adjust, the ball as well as the vice. I like the medium size, cause it can really hold your item strongly enough to saw and grind and drill it, but is still handy as a third hand and light and small enough to easily stow it away. Mine came with an additional clamp to replace the vice, when you want to mount a drilling machine or Dremel with a standard neck.
I got your airbrush and the stand when they 1st released it and its top notch for sure...Excellent review on the diffrent hobby vises.. keep these videos coming.. I'm always watching your videos .. even while I'm at work I watch your videos.. even some guys that work with me stop by my work area and watch your videos.Im always excited when u release a new video.
I've got one like the Bessey works great definitely heavy enough without the suction cup. Looks just like it with a different name. The mini would be perfect to use with the one I have for more delicate projects. Keep up the good work.
Of course the Dspiae Omnidirectional vise is the best choice. I think it's really meant for Warhammer type figures. I have one which will be used for detailing aircraft cockpit tubs etc. The Hobby Mio one is identical to Dspiae version at around the same price point. This one would serve the same purpose for those who don't want to drop $120 on a omnidirectional vise. The small mini vise is practical when holding very small objects and I'll purchase one. The Panavise you show is strictly for soldering circuit boards and attaching electrical wire. You noticed the odd very long head that has long grooves to fit a circuit board. The knobs are awkward shaped and very difficult to open and close. This is why they look like wing nuts to tighten down better. Once this vise is tightened it's not supposed to be moved around but only to re-position the long arm to move the board around. The others shown are crap and too heavy, bulky, and built to either fall apart or waste your money on. You really get what you pay for, thus when you pay $120 you get a quality product. You can't go wrong with Dspiae or Hobby Mio. I have purchased many of the products you have tested here and I've found that the higher the quality of the Tools/Supplies the better they last and perform. It's always good to see your reviews, honesty and opinions.
As with anything you get what you pay for. As for the Dspiae you could just cut the wrench into two install your choice of a knobs and superglue them to the vise.
Border models also makes a nice one. I've had it for a couple of years and it goes for around $40 and I love it. No suction cup but decent weight and comes in like 3 or 4 colors
Neat to see all the different options. Over the summer I drew up and 3D Printed my own vise styled like the HobbyMio one shown here. Not nearly as heavy duty but very very functional for model building, and it was made from stuff laying around so didn't cost me any extra.
@@hhaste Honestly there are so many good sources on youtube. Just searching "Getting Started with 3d printing" will net you hours of video to watch. No matter what the only way to actually learn anything is to do it. All the research in the world can't cover every variable and unique instance.
When you pulled out the Dspiae vice, I knew that it would be great for Warhammer minis. The pins, being that tall and the price are a bit much. It would work better than the painting handles that are in the hobby. Great tests Robert!
I have a Proxxon Micromot FMZ Precision Vice around 40 to 50 dollars i would guess, it does use the screw it on the edge, but it's removable and it is heavy enough to use without it (2.2 lb)
The Megacast all metal construction makes it useful for soldering, particularly resistance soldering with a probe. One cable can be connected to the base, the other to the soldering probe to solder fret work. The Bessy looks like a Panavise (which can be gotten with a screw on benchtop base or a suction base like shown) We used one in the electrician's shop in the Navy. Note: Bessy is one of the top woodworking clamps on the market.
I really liked the mini vise and I am getting one. panavise is the big daddy of modelers vices and I remember seeing them in the hobby magazines back in the ‘60s There are over a dozen models with many that have much wider openings than the one you bought. Of course the prices go up with size and weight.
Not going to lie; I didn't have the imagination to figure out painting with a vise. I always assumed they were for cutting and sanding. This might be a revolution for me.
I have the Use Tek, that I bought 2 years ago for other projects. Never thought of using it for models. But at least I know its good for just about everything.
I was wondering what I could use a vises for an you showed me it's good for painting small things hands free thanks for the video an time you invest in are videos an thank you for a nice informational video
Nice options. Not sure what I want to go with cause I do have the which is not a vise but a painting station that can hold models on it while you paint it. Most of the time I use my alligator clips and hold them while I paint and then let them hand to dry. What I really need a vise grip for is to hold big pieces together while the glue dries the parts up so I can do the next step which is a major help in keeping that momentum going.
Hello sir! Long time sub here just wanted to say I finally got you Barbatos airbrush WOW ITS AMAZING! Also love all your content and always look forward to your new videos! Keep up the great work!
Eight different vices? My first thought was in all your videos there are more than eight vices (paint, booths, spray guns, knives, etc.) took me a second to realize you meant real vices. Thanks for the reviews and opening up the options.
I can’t find the video where our shared different eyeglasses set that have different level as an alternate magnifying but you had also a storage kit , if anyone in the chat remembers, thank you
I have the Dspiae one 'cos it's beautiful and I wanted one. Turns out it's a damned good vice too! The good news for the disgruntled is you only have to cut the plastic once!
Oh hey, I've been wanting to see that dspiae ball vise for a long time. Was curious what it looked like because engravers vises are like that, and they're super nice, but crazy expensive. The only real downside of them is, as you said, they all require the use of an alan wrench to tighten them up. It's part of the tradeoff of being a ball unfortunately. Some come with a fancy alan wrench with a chunky plastic handle that is nice to use though. If you wanna see a "real" engravers vise though, check out the Goliath engraving vise. Adding on further, the Dspiae vise appears to be a QC'd version of the Vevor vise, that isn't coated in cosmoline, and has a better finish and spin on it.
Did the bessy have rubber jaws? That’s one of my key things I’m looking for in a new vice. I like to clamp parts together while the seam dries, and it needs to not mar the surface in any way.
As a car builder, I don't see a ton of use for these, but my build style differs from others probably. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the DSPIAE, especially at that price point. It should have come with rubber pin covers already on the pins and the allen wrenches are just begging to be lost.
My guess that the last vise that you reviewed doesn’t have an adjustment knob on it and you have to adjust it with an Alan wrench is so it doesn’t get in the way when you spin it for all of the adjustment positions. But it does seem to be a great vise. Great review as always and thanks.
for the meat grinder looking one i stick a magnet on the base that holds all the pins. Also that knob is some really soft zinc alloy and i stripped mine after two uses and then melted it trying to solder it back on but after replacing it with a brass knob it works fine. Also you overpaid for the ball vise, you can get much cheaper ones (like from Vevor) and they come with a lot more accessories (which may not all fit 🤣) My ball vise, which is a 10kg one, doesn't spin easily on the base so the split top part that spins is a must, also you can adjust how much force is required for it to spin by tightening the bolt in the hole in the bottom half of the ball. Also nr2: having to cut a bit of plastic shouldn't be a big deal to a modeller :p
Ordered a PanaVise, good review. Sorry, not available on your link. Good video as always 👍 Rotate the mini-vice 90 degrees in the panavice, grip the far end and you can then adjust the mini-vice as well.
The Bessy is near indestructable plus it has replaceable parts. I got one to work on padlocks and to file lock picks. Nothing will make it budge on the ball or release from suction . All in all though the Hobby Mio looks like the winner for me since I do minis.
Fantastic video as always my friend, that blue is absolutely stunning !!!! Thank you for sharing, can't wait for the next review. Everyone keep yourselves and love ones safe and healthy and remember to SMILE 😊God Bless 🙏
Hey Robert any chance on a new video about ultra sonic cleaners for a airbrush.. the video u have ..they don't sell that model ultrasonic cleaner on amazon anymore. Thanks
Have you ever used the dspaie hand stabilizer looking to get one is it worth it or is it a hindrance there's different ones on the market to great job you opened my eyes to different ways to do things you are making a difference in the hobby
![SahBabii - Viking [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D37cL92JX0I/mqdefault.jpg)
Pcb soldering clamp stand works great for cars. It works like a rotisserie. Can rotate the car however you need.
Please do more research on the engravers ball to fully understand how it works .Also Dspiae item number SV-VO1 is the little adjuster tool. I have many friends around the world who praise the ball for model work . The reason the top spins is so when you are engraving or painting you have it tilted you can turn it easily to paint without moving your hand much . I am 73 and build a lot . It works great on Gundams when you are scribing new lines or hold a piece and or drilling .04 holes. I have the Vevor version ,also a box of M4 pins and fish tank filter tuning. Depending on how you use it you can hold items from the outside or inside . It also works great when painting a ship for a ship in the bottle. Please keep up your good work ,I have learned much from you .
Thanks for taking the time to do all these test videos. It really helps all of us learn so much more about the hobby.
After building models for over 60 yrs., my #1 choice has always been "PanaVise".........
Could you share which head/base combo that works best for your modeling activities?
@@3414mercury Hi Sir., certainly happy to help you out anytime, I have used this one for 25 years and is my second one. Wore the first out, although this one has seen better days with spots of Super glue, paint etc.on it, been through the War. My weapon of choice is the PanaVise no. 396 6" Light Duty "Multi-angle" Vise with a standard base. This is ALL metal and heavy with slip on neoprene jaw pads, I have used it for Armor kits, Aircraft etc. Excellent for holding parts, sawing, drilling and assembling with tremendous versatility all-around. This and my Optivisor and I am ready to roll, happy Modeling my friend.......
@@lastmanonearth5580 Thanks so much, I will take a look.
Nice review! It is kind of fun being one of your viewers that doesn't generally build models because I get to see things that I didn't know existed or things that are used across many hobbies and craft work. Sometimes I really finds some gems or even some really good deals on tools. That Dispiae vise is pretty cool and a number of companies make those for engraving, watch repair, jewelry and they do make larger and heavier ones. There's definitely a couple in there that I'll have to check out and maybe add to may collection of tiny vises. These little vises are handy for all kinds of things.
I have the DSPIAE version of the HobbyMio one. The one neat feature that the DSPIAE version has that the HM version doesn't is that the vise can actually be removed from the holder. So it's both a desk vise and a hand one like the small one you have in the beginning.
The Dspiae Ball Vise is identical to a tool I used in jewelry for engraving. It spins on its own if you are using a tool to cut out a channel in plastic and it curves. So you can turn the top as you an engraving or cutting a panel line or channel. Hopefully I am making sense. Well done video.
Anyone that knows a little about engraving knows what you mean.
@@Blaze_1961 Thank you, I just re-read my comment and barely understood myself LOL. You are too kind.
I love your spoons. beautiful colors
Thanks for the great guide!
beautiful dark blue black
Very interesting. Never heard of engraving vise before or seen one till this video. Ive had a Panavise set for a really time, came with 2 different base a nice clamp style and round weighted one, also came with a number of different heads for different jaw options. Found it at a flea market. Cool video, love the channel. Thank you BR
A fellow Z3 owner! I’ve had 2, both 2000s, really enjoyed them!
Very good review Robert.
Thanks much.
More great content. Thanks Robert!
Awesome video showing different vices. I have several vices, but found your video interesting.
The DSPIAE is a miniature jeweler/engraving vise, originally intended for different work. I have one that is close to 30lb.
Thank you for the list of options !
I appreciate this video...I needed a vice but didn't want to break the bank on it. I settled on the $24 one......does exactly what I need
Great vice comparison video , thanks.
I've got several of the 'Schraubstock' with clamp in use, as my tables and work surfaces are made of wood, so suction cups don't work.
They are sturdy and fast and easy to adjust, the ball as well as the vice. I like the medium size, cause it can really hold your item strongly enough to saw and grind and drill it, but is still handy as a third hand and light and small enough to easily stow it away.
Mine came with an additional clamp to replace the vice, when you want to mount a drilling machine or Dremel with a standard neck.
Thanks for the information
I have the Hobby Mio and love it but tbh I think after seeing this video I’d almost recommend the 24$, it looks great.
I got your airbrush and the stand when they 1st released it and its top notch for sure...Excellent review on the diffrent hobby vises.. keep these videos coming.. I'm always watching your videos .. even while I'm at work I watch your videos.. even some guys that work with me stop by my work area and watch your videos.Im always excited when u release a new video.
The one I use and love is the Dremel 2500-01 Rotary Tool Multi-Vise, 3-in-1 Attachment with 360 Degree Stationary Vise
I've got one like the
Bessey works great definitely heavy enough without the suction cup. Looks just like it with a different name. The mini would be perfect to use with the one I have for more delicate projects. Keep up the good work.
I have the same, and it's perfect for my needs.
Cool tools. 🛠
Wow, you read my mind, just wanted to start looking for vises as my hand keep cramping when holding the tiny parts.
Of course the Dspiae Omnidirectional vise is the best choice. I think it's really meant for Warhammer type figures. I have one which will be used for detailing aircraft cockpit tubs etc. The Hobby Mio one is identical to Dspiae version at around the same price point. This one would serve the same purpose for those who don't want to drop $120 on a omnidirectional vise. The small mini vise is practical when holding very small objects and I'll purchase one. The Panavise you show is strictly for soldering circuit boards and attaching electrical wire. You noticed the odd very long head that has long grooves to fit a circuit board. The knobs are awkward shaped and very difficult to open and close. This is why they look like wing nuts to tighten down better. Once this vise is tightened it's not supposed to be moved around but only to re-position the long arm to move the board around. The others shown are crap and too heavy, bulky, and built to either fall apart or waste your money on. You really get what you pay for, thus when you pay $120 you get a quality product. You can't go wrong with Dspiae or Hobby Mio. I have purchased many of the products you have tested here and I've found that the higher the quality of the Tools/Supplies the better they last and perform. It's always good to see your reviews, honesty and opinions.
As with anything you get what you pay for. As for the Dspiae you could just cut the wrench into two install your choice of a knobs and superglue them to the vise.
Border models also makes a nice one. I've had it for a couple of years and it goes for around $40 and I love it. No suction cup but decent weight and comes in like 3 or 4 colors
Neat to see all the different options. Over the summer I drew up and 3D Printed my own vise styled like the HobbyMio one shown here. Not nearly as heavy duty but very very functional for model building, and it was made from stuff laying around so didn't cost me any extra.
Would you have any good video recommendations for someone looking to learn 3D printing? I know nothing about it but I would be interested.
@@hhaste Honestly there are so many good sources on youtube. Just searching "Getting Started with 3d printing" will net you hours of video to watch. No matter what the only way to actually learn anything is to do it. All the research in the world can't cover every variable and unique instance.
👍🏻thanks Robert 👍🏻
I would love to see the Dremel vise added to that test.
When you pulled out the Dspiae vice, I knew that it would be great for Warhammer minis. The pins, being that tall and the price are a bit much. It would work better than the painting handles that are in the hobby. Great tests Robert!
I have a Proxxon Micromot FMZ Precision Vice around 40 to 50 dollars i would guess, it does use the screw it on the edge, but it's removable and it is heavy enough to use without it (2.2 lb)
The Megacast all metal construction makes it useful for soldering, particularly resistance soldering with a probe. One cable can be connected to the base, the other to the soldering probe to solder fret work.
The Bessy looks like a Panavise (which can be gotten with a screw on benchtop base or a suction base like shown) We used one in the electrician's shop in the Navy. Note: Bessy is one of the top woodworking clamps on the market.
Gundam Place in Atlanta GA. sells DSPIAE products
I really liked the mini vise and I am getting one. panavise is the big daddy of modelers vices and I remember seeing them in the hobby magazines back in the ‘60s There are over a dozen models with many that have much wider openings than the one you bought. Of course the prices go up with size and weight.
Not going to lie; I didn't have the imagination to figure out painting with a vise. I always assumed they were for cutting and sanding. This might be a revolution for me.
I am just getting back into scale models (did them as a kid). I appreciate your videos. You have provided a lot of useful info. Thanks
Cheers for that B Rex. On the last one, is it possible to lock the big spherical in place? It only seems useful for light touch painting.
For drilling out diecast cars !!
I have the Use Tek, that I bought 2 years ago for other projects. Never thought of using it for models. But at least I know its good for just about everything.
I was wondering what I could use a vises for an you showed me it's good for painting small things hands free thanks for the video an time you invest in are videos an thank you for a nice informational video
Nice options. Not sure what I want to go with cause I do have the which is not a vise but a painting station that can hold models on it while you paint it. Most of the time I use my alligator clips and hold them while I paint and then let them hand to dry. What I really need a vise grip for is to hold big pieces together while the glue dries the parts up so I can do the next step which is a major help in keeping that momentum going.
i use the hobby mio one, its solid for my decal/handpaint gunpla needs (which i mainly use it for).
DSPIAE sells a knob for the Spherical vice as an additional accessory
Great comparisons. That last one is nice but pricey.
Great review as always 😁
Hello sir! Long time sub here just wanted to say I finally got you Barbatos airbrush WOW ITS AMAZING! Also love all your content and always look forward to your new videos! Keep up the great work!
Glad you like the airbrush, it's awesome. Thanks for your support
Not a huge fan of the suction vises. They never seem to work right. Impressed with the Dspiae model. I might look into one. Thanks Robert!
I have the shruabrock vise it's ok for modelling but not good for heavy duty stuff , mine has a workzone branding
Thanks for the vice run down!
Great video and I definitely need that paint line you keep showing.
Great review.
Thank you so much. I was just shopping for one. Great video as usual.
Great info
"Warhammer-type guy" here - I was looking into these recently and never settled on one. Thanks for another useful video!
Some of those are found on Walmart's website also,that 12$ one ( the first one you opened) I just ordered and waiting for it come in later this week..
Well I'm thinking about ordering that panavise,my hobby is model railroading so I need something like that as a third hand..
Eight different vices? My first thought was in all your videos there are more than eight vices (paint, booths, spray guns, knives, etc.) took me a second to realize you meant real vices. Thanks for the reviews and opening up the options.
I can’t find the video where our shared different eyeglasses set that have different level as an alternate magnifying but you had also a storage kit , if anyone in the chat remembers, thank you
The round one is probably the one I would get if I decided to buy one
I have the Dspiae one 'cos it's beautiful and I wanted one. Turns out it's a damned good vice too! The good news for the disgruntled is you only have to cut the plastic once!
Great video... now I've got more stuff on my Amazon watch list.
“Let me grab a measurement “ 😂 pretty funny!
Been waiting for this video!
Thanks bro for making this comparison video.
Oh hey, I've been wanting to see that dspiae ball vise for a long time. Was curious what it looked like because engravers vises are like that, and they're super nice, but crazy expensive. The only real downside of them is, as you said, they all require the use of an alan wrench to tighten them up. It's part of the tradeoff of being a ball unfortunately. Some come with a fancy alan wrench with a chunky plastic handle that is nice to use though. If you wanna see a "real" engravers vise though, check out the Goliath engraving vise.
Adding on further, the Dspiae vise appears to be a QC'd version of the Vevor vise, that isn't coated in cosmoline, and has a better finish and spin on it.
Did the bessy have rubber jaws? That’s one of my key things I’m looking for in a new vice. I like to clamp parts together while the seam dries, and it needs to not mar the surface in any way.
As a car builder, I don't see a ton of use for these, but my build style differs from others probably. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the DSPIAE, especially at that price point. It should have come with rubber pin covers already on the pins and the allen wrenches are just begging to be lost.
I have the Gsi Creos "Mr. Vise" which is very similar to the HobbyMio. I love it, and if you can find it, I recommend it.
kool beans you sold me on the panavise to me is the best for all bench work
My guess that the last vise that you reviewed doesn’t have an adjustment knob on it and you have to adjust it with an Alan wrench is so it doesn’t get in the way when you spin it for all of the adjustment positions. But it does seem to be a great vise. Great review as always and thanks.
Thanks for the great review.
for the meat grinder looking one i stick a magnet on the base that holds all the pins.
Also that knob is some really soft zinc alloy and i stripped mine after two uses and then melted it trying to solder it back on but after replacing it with a brass knob it works fine.
Also you overpaid for the ball vise, you can get much cheaper ones (like from Vevor) and they come with a lot more accessories (which may not all fit 🤣)
My ball vise, which is a 10kg one, doesn't spin easily on the base so the split top part that spins is a must, also you can adjust how much force is required for it to spin by tightening the bolt in the hole in the bottom half of the ball.
Also nr2: having to cut a bit of plastic shouldn't be a big deal to a modeller :p
Ordered a PanaVise, good review. Sorry, not available on your link. Good video as always 👍 Rotate the mini-vice 90 degrees in the panavice, grip the far end and you can then adjust the mini-vice as well.
Shame you can’t lock the Dspiae in place. Don’t like that it is free spinning.
Great video, love these reviews
Nice review, DISPIAE for the win.
The Bessy is near indestructable plus it has replaceable parts. I got one to work on padlocks and to file lock picks. Nothing will make it budge on the ball or release from suction . All in all though the Hobby Mio looks like the winner for me since I do minis.
Awesome vid! Any model holding jigs you recommend?
You can buy a separate adjustment key made by Dspiae it’s like £2 so that’s like $1.67
Baaaack to tha Benchhhhh!
Is it steel or aluminum? If it is steel, you could use the ANSAI with a 1-inch dowel with a magnet as a handle. Shrink tubes will work on pins.
so many really cool gadgets out there now days, a man can go broke just buying extras..... lol
even the bad quality get the job done, sooo the cheapest is a good for me, haha
nice video, looking up for more tool tips from you sir. god bless you
Hey Rex. we all have our vises! Xixixixixi!
Interesting group of vices. I really like the last one but the price point is ouch.
Good. Info thanks
Fantastic video as always my friend, that blue is absolutely stunning !!!! Thank you for sharing, can't wait for the next review. Everyone keep yourselves and love ones safe and healthy and remember to SMILE 😊God Bless 🙏
Wow..What paint and color is that green spoon at the end of the video.. I wana do a model car in that green color.
That's Tamiya Clear green over chrome
I got caught up in the Dspaie hype. Overpriced China avg tools
Hey Robert any chance on a new video about ultra sonic cleaners for a airbrush.. the video u have ..they don't sell that model ultrasonic cleaner on amazon anymore. Thanks
New subscriber here. Cool channel. I picked up the airbrush you partnered to supply. Hope the wife is well!
120 bucks! They should rubberize the pins
does not apply to this but I purchased your airbrush and it works great been using it on 1/16 scale sherman build works fantastic
Thanks for your support
The Bessey looks like the one I bought at Harbor Freight. Nice vice, but the suction mount is garbage.
Have you ever used the dspaie hand stabilizer looking to get one is it worth it or is it a hindrance there's different ones on the market to great job you opened my eyes to different ways to do things you are making a difference in the hobby
I haven't tested one yet but it's on my list
👍👍👍👍👍
Do you have videos of the difference between thinners and retarder/flow Improvers. I get the basic idea