From the outside looking in, this looks like a common sense thing to do. There's the argument that "it's too not official", but the entire idea of what we've been doing for the PAST 2 YEARS is not official enough. This will overall improve the game, and level the playing field. I support this.
I truly believe that the community is hypocritical in so many areas. my game cube controller is no were near as good as someone who modded it. If your already going to make existing tech even easier by MODDING your controller then playing on UCF why would you not want easier tech IF your already existing notches help you in the first place. Its just so stupid and genuinely i think its because the community thinks the game is supposed to be "hard" But if its to keep melee being hard why have 400$ controllers anyway.
I think its so hypocritical that top players that show clear interest in goomwave say that B0XX should be banned because of it making certain tech easier, they don't want equity, they want to be able to do the most things they can the easier way, that's why they want the benefits of a B0XX in the form of a normal controller, so they don't go through the hassle that's re-learning the game from scratch.
For real. People are already clearly in favor of modding controllers. Afaik no-one's talked about banning notched GC controllers, despite the clear gameplay advantage. I haven't heard anyone talk negatively about UCF despite it doing exactly the same kinds of things as 1.03 or even b0xx, controller-wise. The melee community already has made decisions about how far to go with modded software and hardware. This is not a conversation to be scared of like it seems people are. There needs to be consistency and clear limits, or this is going to turn into a really nasty situation as more controllers like the goomwave come out.
It's literally insane that we don't talk about the Goomwave in this discussion. Calling it a GCC just isn't accurate. It's a weird mix of analog inputs by a human and artificial digital inputs made by the motherboard when it detects something that needs to be "corrected". If the Goomwave can outperform it's stock counterpart then isn't it also busted? If the Goomwave is doing objectively good input corrections then fine, we should make a software mod instead. I don't like people using closed source controllers that can't really be verified by TO's, and that honestly goes for the Boxx too. But then again at least you CAN do a firmware flash on a Boxx, if you wanted to do something similar to a Goomwave you'd have to open up someones controller. And I'm not even sure if you can update Goomwaves, they might just be hardwired. The double standard is really absurd when you start to think about it.
The fact that Melee players are advocating for the prolific use of macros in a tournament legal controller should tell you all you need to hear about how little they care about competitive integrity.
DUUUUUUUUUDE YOU NAILED IT ON THE HEAD! ENCORE!!!! Someone get this man a beer! DING DING DING!!! You know how much work it is to literally RELEARN melee? Guess what? I went through it.. Its not fun getting your ass kicked for about a year before you get back to where you were previously at..
I wish hax would have released these videos before completely destroying his reputation by starting his revenge quest against Leffen. I think the only controversial thing about this fix is the z jump mechanic.
Yep. It's pretty muc impossible for this project to be widely accepted now after he sabotaged himself, and for what? Just because Leffen called out a documentary that not even Netflix was interested in licensing? Hax realized too little too late how petty it was and will forever be fighting to get anything he endorses accepted by the masses.
I'm amazed Hax is so driven to try to improve a community that has treated him so harshly. I hope people become more open to making tech more consistent across the board instead of rejecting it outright.
It's not really that amazing. All of this is just Hax's feeble attempt to salvage his standing within the community after he went after Leffen for petty reasons. He burned a lot of bridges, and will never fully escape the cringe he brought onto himself. This is nothing more than a means to rebuild what is already lost.
In all seriousness I don't blame people for clowning on Hax but it's ironic that people act like he's some kind of unhinged psycho while condemning him for calling Leffen the same. Just move on, he's already apologized.
“This is the time to get the controller dilemma out of the way early in the year” yes Hax you’re absolutely correct and I hope we can see these changes on slippi soon and experience what you’ve showed us.
Very surprised at what Nintendude says in the tweet at the start. It seems quite disingenuous. Obviously taking care of your hands is overlooked by many, but as someone who has dealt with a TON of repetitive strain injuries from rhythm games, sometimes injuries are just unlucky, and developing a better controller or alternative to a controller to reduce your odds of winning the shitty lottery of injuries should be done in 10/10 situations.
@@PoorStargazer I'd agree except for the people fear Hax thing cause that makes it seem like a cult of personality. They're just over resistant to change and use bad faith arguments to oppose it regardless of who is doing the change imo. and it's barely even a change at that, it's a leveling of the playing field for the less fortunate (literally, the people too poor to buy a $300 controller that already has these changes, or the disabled for the sake of melee, aka their hands)
Just out of curiosity, have you recovered from those injuries, and if so, how long did it take? Because I’ve heard some cases where people have had to take a year break from playing games, and it could have been avoided with a better controller (like the boxx)
You could also listen to the literal doctor of physiotherapy who says that the gamecube controller isn't going to outright hurt you if you do the work to prepare your muscles properly.
@@MrAddemaster For the most part I have, yeah. Took over a year off of any slightly physically intensive games and eventually was able to very slowly ease myself back into it, like going back to the gym kind of. In my case, they were keyboard rhythm games so not much opportunity for changing controllers. To this day I can play stepmania/osu/whatever for hours at a time, only needing a good sleep to recover my hands because I know that keyboard/boxes do actually have great options for healthy hand positioning, even if it took a while to learn. However, Melee has put me out for a week+ with acute tendonitis in my thumb and forearm extensors after a few hours of playing, even when using the same warmups I use for those other games. The posture of the GCC is just wrong, and after being painfully aware (literally) of what's comfortable for my tendons I am certain of this. This difference between keyboard and controller even in my issue should show the necessity for widespread box controllers, even if I know I probably won't get one as I'm more of a spectator nowadays.
@@mudd7522 yeah its crazy how hard hax$ sabotaged his career. whether or not he was in the right is irrelevant, the dude represents a risk, one that is easier to avoid than to acknowledge. 1.03 will never be adopted by any major tournaments.
Because Hax is banned for harassment of other players, simple as that. Not to mention this attempt to regain a foothold in the community under the guise of good grace fixes (that are profitable, mind you) doesn't really sit well with a lot of people.
How do you convince the dumpster fire that is twitter tho? Because I personally believe all changes 1.03 add should be legal or just makes the game more enjoyable, beginner friendly, and remove the $ barrier. I have a big feeling all of this is coming about because of the new panda controller they have been trying to advertise
I think shying away from the 1.03 name might be a good start honestly. I agree with pretty much everything in it but for the game with the community most afraid of change I don't think naming your small QoL mod as a whole new version of a game is a great marketing strategy.
@@cjkmelee Unfortunately those who manage rulesets fall victim to the 'twitter = entire community' pitfall. Twitter doesn't HAVE to be convinced, but it would make things way easier going forward
i honestly don't understand why people are completely glossing over the fixes that hax is proposing and going after the b0xx specifically. if we're going to use mods like static pokemon stadium and UCF in the first place, why shouldn't we take every measure possible to ensure the playing field is level? it would be so much easier and more satisfying for everyone to buff the GCC instead of nerfing box controllers.
Hax literally shows tweets of people talking about these things in the very beginning of this video. If you don't understand why these things are happening just go look at the sources cited in the video instead of complaining to youtube comments that you're only getting one side of the argument
He's the spokesperson but he is very clear about who he works on these projects with. He didn't do any of this alone, please don't minimize the collective effort
@@SomniaCE absolutely guys, thanks for specifying, I should have phrases that better. What I means is that it’s not a collective effort from the whole community, it’s just a guy with his small team reaserching the game and trying to improve the competitive environment. It was not meant to discredit the team, when I mean Hax, the team behind is is included without question
with every video 1.03 seems more convincing even though I was quite skeptical upon its announcement. It's practically future-proof and everything is toggleable, but it won't be given a chance due to blind hatred
I have a smashbox, and i only got it cuz i sprain my hand the last time i played with a GCC. Whatever makes the playing field more level and less random sounds good to me, I’m aware my controller has advantages but I aint using it for those reasons.
In other words Nintendude is wrong, GCC does indeed cause hand problems not just a random meme because M2K would refuse to go to the doctor or whatever was the case
as much as this could be helpful, knowing how stubborn melee players are to change I highly doubt seeing the community at large using 1.03 especially with the bad PR the leffen fiasco caused (whether it was earned or not). Regardless, great video
@@clipCommander101 dark triad, 1.03 is pretty fine but just look how long it took Europe to switch to ntsc or banning wobbling, it's an uphill battle lol
@@clipCommander101 yeah no he's talking about drama, which is why I disagree with crenado the average player doesn't decide what is implemented in modded products and I believe TOs and developers are more rational in their assessment of proposed changes than "Hurr durr! you have no standing because drama that I don't earnestly care about and doesn't affect me"
Good video ? For real ? I mean, all this teasing just to repeat one more time what “1.03” does, implying that he was somehow part of the ucf team, and to beg Fizzi to add his unpeer reviewed mod (and we all know how good this approach has been with everything Hax tries to push) and asking the community to beg with him, and you feel that was a good video that resolves the controller legality the community is facing rn ? Really ?
Let's go! Stacking more reason why ever buying a controller for $400 is ridiculous. Just having notches is a massive advantage, anyone who says different can go to bed. Fixing so controllers and notched specific tech works more reliably makes for better gameplay without the cost. Dash-Ooc isn't gonna win you a game but let's you do the thing you intended to do. Let's go Hax and the advancement of the Melee scene! Fuck the regressive mentality where people wants to be stuck to the past! 1.03 should def be on Slippi!
How would standardizing 1.03 for something like Panda's/Nintendo's circuit work when Nintendo has shown to be very anti software modding? I don't see any argument that could convince TOs of major events to include such a radical change when they're too worried about being shut down by doing something like freezing Stadium or not using stealth UCF.
I think 1.03 does overstep some things as far as that goes yeah. I don't see a reason why there couldn't be a "stealth" 1.03, but it wouldn't include things like windless Dreamland.
1.03 is the only path forward, no excuses. If the alternative is ever-ballooning controller costs and secondhand fixes making it harder and harder for onlookers to break into the scene then that alternative shouldn't be considered. Unless someone is a dweeb who actively wants to pretend that controller RNG and in-game input registration RNG are core to Melee and thus shouldn't be fixed, no one should have much to say about this, especially when 1.03 is able to be applied to memory cards for free and works on both PAL, NTSC and 20XX.
Bring Melee into 2022. Why we haven't accepted a universal mod that allows for button modifications the same way that Ultimate does and buffs across the board to fix the jank that exists in the game is beyond me, considering that we play the game in the first place because of the mechanics and freedoms that come from it. The GameCube controller, as good as it is, is inherently flawed, and it makes no sense to me that production flaws in the micromillimeters can cause such a large impact in high-level competitive play. Your controller should just work out the gate, no strings attached. Hiding under a rock to maintain a purist mindset doesn't make you a bad person to begin with, but it does have a huge effect on a community that's barely trying to survive as it is. I don't want my 70 dollar purchase of a controller to be a lottery - I just want to play the game. I don't want to carve notches in my controller - I just want to play the game. I don't want to spend upwards of 300 dollars on controller modifications - I just want to play the game. I don't see why I have to settle for .9875 when 1 exists. I don't see why we've had these long drawn out debates about digital controllers when every other fighting game is doing just fine. The solution has been clear and present for so long - we've so much documentation, so many great ideas, and so much talent to just let it go to waste because we've been taking too long. Every other modern game allows for digital controls. Shit, I just want Hax back. I want the people that otherwise can't play to play with us. Let them play so we can see what Melee should be - an otherwise technically sound video game with an incredible community, skill regardless.
I love when people who nothing about the boxx, or simply don’t know enough, are calling for nerfs. The awareness and knowledge are very obviously not there.
yup. wahhh wahh wahhh I can't do 2 brain cell combo wahhh. Like at that point, just disable SDI from the game. There! Now we can all combo like traditional fighting games do. Fuckit, right?
@@rapidretrovenue563 Box controllers provide objective advantages and cost 150-200 dollars. Ban those and software mod the game so a wider range of affordable regular GC controllers become viable. Don't mod the game so GC controllers can do what they aren't supposed to be able to do but have to in order to keep up with box controllers. The only reason Hax advocates for it is because it's his business now. Some of the 1.03 stuff was so weird, like how he wanted to fix 1.00 cardinal. It is essentially meant taking away subtle drift options regular GC controllers were capable by making them function EXACTLY like how Boxes do cardinal inputs. Goomwave did it much better, letting only a few outer values always give 1.00 cardinal values instead of the entire outer range on the four main cardinal directions
@@Bladieblah There is trade-off. Box controllers make complex stuff easier once you learn them, but some easier tech harder. Its not all sunshine and rainbows just cuz someone knows how to play on one, they had to actually learn how to play on the damn thing. Gccs are just simply not well designed for competitive smash. Thats why it is inevitable for mods to come out and I'm fine with that. If you want to stay on Gcc and have optimized inputs, I don't see an issue with getting notches, cardinal inputs, all that fun stuff. Just don't try to bash on box controller player's credibilities as players because they have had to put in the work too. Honestly, I don't really care for 1.03 AT ALL, but if it will stop gcc elitists from crying about box nerfs, then so be it. That's my stance on the whole thing.
@@rapidretrovenue563 GC's not being well designed for smash is just Hax propaganda. Sure, you can make a controller that can play smash MORE EFFECTIVELY, but that doesn't mean the original controller was not well designed for it. It was fine, people used it for years without issue, but you can squeeze out much more if you put directions on digital buttons instead of an analog stick because it's that much more simple and precise. Also, only the skill ceiling of a controller matters, how much of an advantage it provides when fully mastered within human limits, simply because we're looking for balance and fairness at top level play. The issue with allowing new controller types is accessibility, not some sentimental thing "because GC is how we always did it", GC elitism is on I hadn't heard before but is also not a thing or the point. If you start having 150-200$ box controllers it raises the barrier of entry. The ideal situation is one where everyone's standard GC controller is capable of performing all the techniques good GC can consistently enough. No box controllers and no mods to make GC'S be able to do Boxx stuff.
@@Bladieblah I'm sick of this argument about "Oh but if little timmy and his 20 dollars can't compete with his gamestop controller than this is bad." Like thats how everything is.. Look at the top players of CSGO. They have super monitors that cost WAAAAAAAYYYYY more than any box would and the scene is BOOMING! Melee as it is is an inconsistent MESS that you will even find good players point out from time to time. Controller mods purely exist to add consistency so that if a players learns tech, they can actually perform it more reliably. Case in point, you invest as much into melee as you see fit. You get what you pay for. If you're not willing to shell some money to invest in a good controller, don't try and ruin things for the people who actually invest in them and learn to play on them as well. Money is where its at, and this puts melee on the board as a profession. There's business in everything, nothing is free, live with it. Sorry if it sounds messed up, but money keeps things alive. Maybe when Timmy grows a little and gets a part time job, then he can invest in a good controller if he's that serious about melee. Simple.
frame 1 aerials with a cstick are impossible on a 3 frame jumpsquat character without a claw grip. ive spent hours trying in the past and never even got it once. if you can do it then id like to see a video!
@@Spunney but yes, I agree that moving your thumb from x/y to the c stick in 3 frames and being able to input a specific direction is not realistic. If that is the case that hax is referring to, then I don’t really have anything to say.
I don't know if you ever explained this, but why make the boxx the new standard for controllers? Aren't we moving the goalposts a bit by doing that and therefore slowly moving further away from a concrete standard to base things off of?
Yeah, it seems kind of odd to me, too. If I had to guess, his reasoning is probably similar to the 1.0 vs. 0.9875 point; staying consistent with past proposed changes, aka buffs.
Let’s remove UCF entirely then I want my dash-backs to fail randomly. And while we’re at it let’s add tripping into melee cuz I want to be punished for trying to move and getting unlucky. You should be able to do exactly what you want to do in melee at all times (even if it’s running away from your opponent and camping…) dash back, and everything you want to do, should be 100% consistent.
@@LANBobYonson I don't think you understand what my concern really is. Allow me to explain in a bit more detail. Currently, the B0XX is being balanced around the Gamecube Controller with UCF v.8.0. The B0XX can do some things better than the Gamecube Controller, but there are certain safeguards put in by the team which prevent it from overshadowing the GCC completely. However, now we are trying to buff the GCC using code which will increase its capabilities way greater than a stock controller without UCF. If it turns out that the B0XX is now weaker than the GCC, do we buff the B0XX to compensate? Do we nerf the newly buffed GCC, and if we do, what are we basing the nerfs off of? A standard GCC right out of the box? The B0XX? Theoretical capabilities of controller inputs? Because most of these are not concrete standards (excluding stock GCC, but that sucks to use tbh) but instead malleable through code changes and future discoveries, the whole idea of controller balance becomes much harder since we have no foundation to base it off. At this point, it would make more sense to push all controllers (B0XX, GCC, and that technicolor rainbow in between) towards their theoretical perfect state since we at least have some idea of how to do that. However, that is not a "concrete standard" since every person will have their opinion of what a "perfect" controller looks like. This would also make Melee much less accessible to newcomers since not only do they have to obtain a 20 year old game/iso, a computer setup/CRT+gamecube, and controller, but now, that controller price essentially quintuples. If we implement code to standardize all GCC to avoid the price hike, then we run the risk of Nintendo shutting us down. We have been lucky so far, but with Nintendo (seemingly) taking a larger part in Melee, we have to exercise even more caution. Also, by not having a solid standard, we make it much harder for event organizers to maintain fair play. After all, what's to stop someone coming in with their custom box controller which doesn't have Hax's nerfs implemented? That would definitely hurt the integrity of the game, especially if that person were to become a top player. Now, I must admit that I am playing a bit of devil's advocate here. Personally, I would like to get rid of any code changes to Melee such as UCF, but I would instead like for there to be more controllers/mods (B0XX, Goomwave, Smash Stick, arduinos, etc) to be used instead. I know logistically it would be very difficult, so I am okay with having UCF for now. However, I would like there to a clear foundation that we're basing everything off of. Let's use Street Fighter 2 as an example. When SSF2T came out for console, people realized that you could walk forward and throw sonic booms with Guile using the MixBox by holding 2 directional inputs at the same time (normally you have to hold back and then push forward to unleash it, making the move balanced around the fact you cannot walk forward). Of course, this controller was banned, but that is because the standard was based around the arcade stick and not the MixBox. Fast forward to Ultra Street Fighter 4, and we can see that the introduction of the PS4 controller allows Zangief to use a walking 720 motion (A 720 is where you spin the stick in a circle 2 times in quick succession. usually impossible to do while moving. Done by using the analog stick and the dpad). However, since the PS4 was considered a legal controller right from the get-go, this technique and other controllers which could perform something similar like this were allowed in competitive play. I believe that Melee is at an interesting point where we must now confirm what our controller's standard will be. Currently, the argument regarding controller legality seems to hinge on this point. If the community can come together and finalize a standard (whether that be B0XX or stock GCC), I believe this argument would be much easier to resolve. However, since people are torn on what the new standard is, it makes discussion much more difficult. I would like Hax to blatantly say what he believes the standard should be because it will make it much easier to understand his balancing decisions and lead the discussion in a more productive manner. I'm sorry this post is super long, but I just wanted to make sure I explained myself properly. Like I said, I'm not opposed to consistency (God knows how many times I've chucked my GCC for missing a dashback), but I think doing so just for the sake of progress is dangerous without clear goals and fundamentals.
The boxx should never be the new standard/baseline for controllers when a small amount of the community has them and they are currently unavailable/not for sale.
@@LightCave02 to answer you original question: because we want higher standards. if gamecube controllers suck, we should make them better. if a box is better then it should be the standard because better is better.
Aziz Al-Yami First of all, thanks you for all the work you did for melee's controller with the boxx and melee 1.03 I agree with your direction of, for every technique which are possible on both controllers but have a varying success rate on both, to bring them in line by buffing both reliability to parity whenever possible. However, there is a line being drawn in a spot I don't like. 1.03's UCF and the BOXX have angles designed to help fox's frame 6 ledgedash, which require a perfect 1.0 X value. This is a buff from vanilla, but very much in line with the above rationale, which I agree with. However, why is pikachu/pichu's double-up-b being nerfed instead of buffed to parity? It is possible but inconsistant in vanilla, just like fox's frame 6 ledgedash, yet it is being nerfed on the BOXX and Melee 1.03 instead of being buffed to parity. This is just a small example, but I don't like that a specific input which serve only the top character (fox is the only one getting a tangible mechanical adventage from 1.0 coordinate instead of 0.9875) is being buffed, while a similarly precise input benefiting another character is being explicitly nerfed, instead of buffed. My issue is not that much about that specific mechanic, but rather the rationale; bringing one aspect of controllers coordinate to parity in a way that specifically buff a single character, while simultaneously nerfing another aspect benefiting another single character (well, +pichu) seems like a slippery slope
imagine a holy being descends from the heavens but instead of it being god or jesus or mary magdalene it's some middle eastern guy with arthritis and he says "hey everyone it's hax, i recently talked with other members of the heaven melee community and we wanted to discuss what you guys think about the winged b0xx we're shipping today"
Does Hax have a background in technical documentation/engineering? If not, is all of this process methodology self-taught? It’s hard to believe that there is someone this dedicated to improving the game. Well done
let's go hax, get this discussion going. it's kind of ludicrous that the method of doing this is through twitter screenshots within a youtube video, but that's the situation our authorities within the Melee community have put us into.
Not interested in discussing what I'm about to say; I dislike the way Hax sells his ideas, I think usually the language and the persuasive tactics used are deceptive and rely on false assumptions (one is even prevalent in this video, ie; that because this controller fix is good, 1.03 is good) BUT, This is absolutely 100% the correct take on how to solve the GC Boxx parity issue and I hope both the scene and Hax can come to a point where 1.03 controller fix is used, or these changes are applied to UCF as standard, without 1.03 as a whole being implemented.
Agreed, something about his presentation runs me the wrong way. Nothing is presented with any nuance at all- “this is the problem you’re having and the only way (and only correct way) to fix it this way I proposed”. Right or wrong about his changes it doesn’t sit well with me. It also doesn’t help that the motivations are weird because these fixes address problems which are introduced mainly by him and his company. Which would call for even more nuance, but there is none.
I really, _REALLY_ don't understand the pushback on BOXX. Beyond standardization and *HARM REDUCTION* I have no idea why people relentlessly continue to shit on you, man. You're doing great work.
Is there a way to toggle on and off options in 1.03? The controller fixes are great, but for streamed tournaments some of the stage changes (for example) could trigger the litigious side of Nintendo
If the b0xx is just better to play on then the community should just embrace it. the idea of just limiting yourself to a controller that's impossible to find new is kind of ridiculous. LIke imagine if in fighting games they banned stickless boxes because they can do 2/3 frame fireballs/DPs. smash kinda sucks tbh now that ive gotten into other games but a huge reason why i left smash to begin with was because all i wanted to do was do hella waveshines all day every day and it fucking hurt my hands. fun techniques shouldnt be physically painful. i shouldnt be forced to play shiek just because trying to be 20XX hurts my hands
Hacks, if you want people to take you seriously and listen to you. You should go on stream with some Malay pros and talk about it, or just talk about it to them in DM‘s if you want
I think he was saying that the box has a wavedash angle nerf already and changing cardinal will make ledgedash fail unless you change the angle too which could be a bigger buff to the boxx
All I really want is a way to have gamecube controllers to be basically the same after purchasing them without the need to mod them like crazy. To me getting these types of fixes done will allow regular people and more controllers viable for high end gameplay without the necessity for mods to even just get a chance to function at that level. I've always liked the idea of the Boxx controller too, i don't understand why people need to ban or hate it.
I'm a fan of this. Also with the rise of goomwave I believe that the boxx uptilt nerf should be removed. The goomwave has uptilt buffs which make it free. I play some one who does pivot uptilts with their goom
not only is this healthier for the scene moving forward, it also makes the game much more accessible by making any gcc controller viable and makes the game in some ways "easier" but in a healthy way that does not remove the games skill cieling but instead by fixing inherent issues with a controller that makes the game more playable.
Your videos make a lot of sense. I think that melee should strive for consistency and having to shell out big bucks for a coomwave controller isn't a good solution.
IMO this video is the shakiest of all the ones Hax has made on Melee mechanics/changes. I get that he wants to stay consistent by suggesting buffs over nerfs, but it seems like now he’s doing so by setting the B0XX as the controller standard. His comment on how UCF was failing to do its job in particular seemed…distasteful, I guess? I’m fine with the changes themselves (except _maybe_ with shield dropping, but even then I don’t think it’s egregious or anything), but I don’t agree with this new reasoning.
I see what you mean, however, I have to disagree. The goal of these changes is to promote consistency. Top players will pay for top controllers (like goomwave), which can costs hundreds of dollars. These changes, like UCF, aim to make every controller a good controller. It would no longer be about how expensive of a controller you can afford. Lowering the barrier to entry is the key to getting and retaining new players. I don’t like everything included in 1.03, but it seems to be a healthy way to move forward amidst some of the other controller modifications that allowed.
the fact that all of this stuff is possible but the controller is a barrier makes this a no-brainer to me. These arent macros. Only thing I would say is that these changes feel pretty amazing for captain falcon. Wizzy being able to run at 1.0 speed and dash back out of crouch could actually be kinda broken. At the very least I support having a community wide testing period. Put this on slippi
Wow, I didn't even know wiggle out of tumble was a thing. Always thought you had to like, aerial or something out of it. Such an ambiguous and sneaky state to be put it.
I’m personally all for making qol changes to smash, but the purist in me is worried it may be a slippery slope. Does that uptilt toggle on the goomwave do what I think it does? I’m only recently getting more seriously into smash, all this controller stuff is pretty wild.
I have never seen so much outright ableism from so many members of the community before. I believe in full controller liberation. Melee should be easy to play! The competitive integrity argument is so dumb. It will benefit whoever puts the most time into it, top players. Like always. The bottom line is that melee 1.03 will share a higher level of melee with more people. Period.
Yeah make it where everyone has a big giant fucking one hit ko move thats frame one and goes through invincibility so the game is accessible for literally anyone on the fucking planet, even a fucking jellyfish
He shouldn't have tripled down on attacking Leffen just because he called out a random documentary. Hax did this to himself and I have zero sympathy after he refused to back down. That's the price you pay for being stubborn.
@@biggs2560 People slip up. Emotions can get the best of even the most calm and composed people. ESPECIALLY when it pertains to something one is passionate about. Being unforgiving to someone because they're human even after they've owned up to it sometime after is no less stubborn in nature.
I use one of those Nintendo lisences usb gcc that are meant for ultimate on slippi. I always get 1.0 inputs because it calibrates on startup of the game. I can also use dolphins button binding system to get z jump. I’m not sure why people use old gcc on slippi
Well I'm not an expert but I have alot of trouble with shield drops on all 3 of my gc controllers so 🤷 I really like the idea of buffing the gcs especially because we already have, the more viable controllers the better
1.03 should allow you to swap all buttons as you want. °v° I would love that bc then i could finally play Melee with the button layout i always use. R = Grab Z = Jump X = doesnt matter (In this case its shield) The Panda Controller or the Smash Stick from AltLab will have a remap feature anyway so why not implement this into the game anyway? I also would LOVE to have tap jump off as an option but, like someone in the comments said, it may all meddle too far into what the game is meant to be. (I still hope that this feature will kept be in tho. I really, REALLY hate tap jump. >~
With everyone modding the game so much. Why haven't we fixed game and watch l cancel? Legitimately there's no excuse with how much modification of vanilla you need for a " tournament legal setup?"
Probably because if G&W gets fixed people will want other characters fixed. The next person will want Luigi's final dash attack hitbox enabled, Bowser mains will want their shield bigger so they can powershield, Kirby mains will want throws to not be escapable etc. etc it's a bad precedent for non-stop character mods that will ultimately lead to a can of worms like "if that character got buffed by fixed L cancels, Zelda should have faster grab" and "Samus's chargeshot charge shouldn't disappear when she recovers and should be heavier", "Remove Mewtwo's tail hurtbox" etc. etc. It's better not mess with this slippery slope of character buffs. Games like Project M already do something similar anyway.
this is incredible, however top players will continue to crab-in-bucket mentality the scene until the ultimate downfall of the community, or a massive regression by banning or seriously limiting other controller options.
![Natanael Cano - Amor Eterno [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EO4prCs6WpM/mqdefault.jpg)
twitter is such a horrible way to have discourse with people man, we need smashboards back
For sure. 10char
I agree with this, used to use smash boards like crazy. Whatever happened??
Twitter is for the birds man
That could become smashladder's new purpose in this Slippi era
What? what happened to smashboards?
they hated Haxmoney because he spoke the truth
From the outside looking in, this looks like a common sense thing to do. There's the argument that "it's too not official", but the entire idea of what we've been doing for the PAST 2 YEARS is not official enough. This will overall improve the game, and level the playing field. I support this.
geometrical dash
I truly believe that the community is hypocritical in so many areas.
my game cube controller is no were near as good as someone who modded it.
If your already going to make existing tech even easier by MODDING your controller then playing on UCF
why would you not want easier tech IF your already existing notches help you in the first place.
Its just so stupid and genuinely i think its because the community thinks the game is supposed to be "hard"
But if its to keep melee being hard why have 400$ controllers anyway.
BIG BRAIN
I think its so hypocritical that top players that show clear interest in goomwave say that B0XX should be banned because of it making certain tech easier, they don't want equity, they want to be able to do the most things they can the easier way, that's why they want the benefits of a B0XX in the form of a normal controller, so they don't go through the hassle that's re-learning the game from scratch.
For real. People are already clearly in favor of modding controllers. Afaik no-one's talked about banning notched GC controllers, despite the clear gameplay advantage. I haven't heard anyone talk negatively about UCF despite it doing exactly the same kinds of things as 1.03 or even b0xx, controller-wise.
The melee community already has made decisions about how far to go with modded software and hardware. This is not a conversation to be scared of like it seems people are. There needs to be consistency and clear limits, or this is going to turn into a really nasty situation as more controllers like the goomwave come out.
It's literally insane that we don't talk about the Goomwave in this discussion. Calling it a GCC just isn't accurate. It's a weird mix of analog inputs by a human and artificial digital inputs made by the motherboard when it detects something that needs to be "corrected". If the Goomwave can outperform it's stock counterpart then isn't it also busted? If the Goomwave is doing objectively good input corrections then fine, we should make a software mod instead. I don't like people using closed source controllers that can't really be verified by TO's, and that honestly goes for the Boxx too. But then again at least you CAN do a firmware flash on a Boxx, if you wanted to do something similar to a Goomwave you'd have to open up someones controller. And I'm not even sure if you can update Goomwaves, they might just be hardwired. The double standard is really absurd when you start to think about it.
The fact that Melee players are advocating for the prolific use of macros in a tournament legal controller should tell you all you need to hear about how little they care about competitive integrity.
DUUUUUUUUUDE YOU NAILED IT ON THE HEAD!
ENCORE!!!! Someone get this man a beer! DING DING DING!!! You know how much work it is to literally RELEARN melee? Guess what? I went through it.. Its not fun getting your ass kicked for about a year before you get back to where you were previously at..
@@drewbabe bruhhhh do you know what a macro even IS, dawg...
I love it when people push the scene forward instead of regressing backwards.
This is why you are the best, Hax.
Dubs
based hax saving melee again
Very based
I wish hax would have released these videos before completely destroying his reputation by starting his revenge quest against Leffen.
I think the only controversial thing about this fix is the z jump mechanic.
Yep. It's pretty muc impossible for this project to be widely accepted now after he sabotaged himself, and for what? Just because Leffen called out a documentary that not even Netflix was interested in licensing? Hax realized too little too late how petty it was and will forever be fighting to get anything he endorses accepted by the masses.
Retitled: The reason we will never have another analog fighting game like SSMB
This shit is nuts.
p much. You legit go to any other FGC tourney with anything, ANYTHING and its just like..
"K theres no macros, right? ok you're good."
Wait I don't get it
there is something so comforting in his thoroughness
i’m only a casual melee fan but i love watching these videos, i’ve learned so much!
In another timeline, hax finds success as a beloved community college upper level math professor
I'm amazed Hax is so driven to try to improve a community that has treated him so harshly. I hope people become more open to making tech more consistent across the board instead of rejecting it outright.
It's not really that amazing. All of this is just Hax's feeble attempt to salvage his standing within the community after he went after Leffen for petty reasons. He burned a lot of bridges, and will never fully escape the cringe he brought onto himself. This is nothing more than a means to rebuild what is already lost.
^ Exhibit A of the community treating Hax unfairly
In all seriousness I don't blame people for clowning on Hax but it's ironic that people act like he's some kind of unhinged psycho while condemning him for calling Leffen the same. Just move on, he's already apologized.
@@biggs2560 Bro WHAT he has been doing this BEFORE his ban
@@rw9161 I'm just saying he's being treated fairly
“This is the time to get the controller dilemma out of the way early in the year” yes Hax you’re absolutely correct and I hope we can see these changes on slippi soon and experience what you’ve showed us.
Very surprised at what Nintendude says in the tweet at the start. It seems quite disingenuous. Obviously taking care of your hands is overlooked by many, but as someone who has dealt with a TON of repetitive strain injuries from rhythm games, sometimes injuries are just unlucky, and developing a better controller or alternative to a controller to reduce your odds of winning the shitty lottery of injuries should be done in 10/10 situations.
Kinda shows that most of the resistance is political and the arguments are in bad faith. People fear Hax
@@PoorStargazer I'd agree except for the people fear Hax thing cause that makes it seem like a cult of personality. They're just over resistant to change and use bad faith arguments to oppose it regardless of who is doing the change imo. and it's barely even a change at that, it's a leveling of the playing field for the less fortunate (literally, the people too poor to buy a $300 controller that already has these changes, or the disabled for the sake of melee, aka their hands)
Just out of curiosity, have you recovered from those injuries, and if so, how long did it take? Because I’ve heard some cases where people have had to take a year break from playing games, and it could have been avoided with a better controller (like the boxx)
You could also listen to the literal doctor of physiotherapy who says that the gamecube controller isn't going to outright hurt you if you do the work to prepare your muscles properly.
@@MrAddemaster For the most part I have, yeah. Took over a year off of any slightly physically intensive games and eventually was able to very slowly ease myself back into it, like going back to the gym kind of. In my case, they were keyboard rhythm games so not much opportunity for changing controllers. To this day I can play stepmania/osu/whatever for hours at a time, only needing a good sleep to recover my hands because I know that keyboard/boxes do actually have great options for healthy hand positioning, even if it took a while to learn.
However, Melee has put me out for a week+ with acute tendonitis in my thumb and forearm extensors after a few hours of playing, even when using the same warmups I use for those other games. The posture of the GCC is just wrong, and after being painfully aware (literally) of what's comfortable for my tendons I am certain of this. This difference between keyboard and controller even in my issue should show the necessity for widespread box controllers, even if I know I probably won't get one as I'm more of a spectator nowadays.
Im not sure why more top players arent talking about this when it actually fixes so much. I really hope this fix is adopted
BuT iF AnYonE cOuLd shIEld drOP, iT woUlDnT be An EpiC SpeCtaCle of PHysiCal SKill wHen sOmeOnE mAnaGes to Do One!!
Because Hax is the face of it. The TOs have told the players to not discuss it or anything to do with Hax.
@@mudd7522 yeah its crazy how hard hax$ sabotaged his career. whether or not he was in the right is irrelevant, the dude represents a risk, one that is easier to avoid than to acknowledge. 1.03 will never be adopted by any major tournaments.
because they all have billion dollar controllers
Because Hax is banned for harassment of other players, simple as that. Not to mention this attempt to regain a foothold in the community under the guise of good grace fixes (that are profitable, mind you) doesn't really sit well with a lot of people.
This is exactly what Melee needs.
Yes
Man is literally trying to improve the game so that he can make a living, gotta love this guy
you know my boy had them crazy high school project presentations
Thank you for always proposing great ideas. It's appreciated here if it isn't by everyone
How do you convince the dumpster fire that is twitter tho? Because I personally believe all changes 1.03 add should be legal or just makes the game more enjoyable, beginner friendly, and remove the $ barrier. I have a big feeling all of this is coming about because of the new panda controller they have been trying to advertise
i agree
The 1.03 melee may be great, but let's listen to leffens point of view before
I think shying away from the 1.03 name might be a good start honestly. I agree with pretty much everything in it but for the game with the community most afraid of change I don't think naming your small QoL mod as a whole new version of a game is a great marketing strategy.
Why do you have to convince Twitter? It's full of reactionary BS and more rational and smarter people make development decisions
@@cjkmelee Unfortunately those who manage rulesets fall victim to the 'twitter = entire community' pitfall. Twitter doesn't HAVE to be convinced, but it would make things way easier going forward
Eventually everyone will come to see Hax was always right
yessir. nice profile pic refrence btw
It happens each and every time. He's always right.
layered character interpreted
Nope.
i honestly don't understand why people are completely glossing over the fixes that hax is proposing and going after the b0xx specifically. if we're going to use mods like static pokemon stadium and UCF in the first place, why shouldn't we take every measure possible to ensure the playing field is level? it would be so much easier and more satisfying for everyone to buff the GCC instead of nerfing box controllers.
People are vindictive and egotistical and dismiss information because of bias against the source of it
Hax literally shows tweets of people talking about these things in the very beginning of this video. If you don't understand why these things are happening just go look at the sources cited in the video instead of complaining to youtube comments that you're only getting one side of the argument
This man is single-handedly doing insane stuff to improve the community, thanks Hax, you’re doing a stellar job
He is literally working with a team of at least two
He's the spokesperson but he is very clear about who he works on these projects with. He didn't do any of this alone, please don't minimize the collective effort
@@SomniaCE absolutely guys, thanks for specifying, I should have phrases that better. What I means is that it’s not a collective effort from the whole community, it’s just a guy with his small team reaserching the game and trying to improve the competitive environment. It was not meant to discredit the team, when I mean Hax, the team behind is is included without question
with every video 1.03 seems more convincing even though I was quite skeptical upon its announcement. It's practically future-proof and everything is toggleable, but it won't be given a chance due to blind hatred
I have a smashbox, and i only got it cuz i sprain my hand the last time i played with a GCC.
Whatever makes the playing field more level and less random sounds good to me, I’m aware my controller has advantages but I aint using it for those reasons.
In other words Nintendude is wrong, GCC does indeed cause hand problems not just a random meme because M2K would refuse to go to the doctor or whatever was the case
as much as this could be helpful, knowing how stubborn melee players are to change I highly doubt seeing the community at large using 1.03 especially with the bad PR the leffen fiasco caused (whether it was earned or not). Regardless, great video
Are you referring to the dark triad stuff, or did leffen speak out against 1.03 itself?
@@clipCommander101 dark triad, 1.03 is pretty fine but just look how long it took Europe to switch to ntsc or banning wobbling, it's an uphill battle lol
@@clipCommander101 yeah no he's talking about drama, which is why I disagree with crenado the average player doesn't decide what is implemented in modded products and I believe TOs and developers are more rational in their assessment of proposed changes than "Hurr durr! you have no standing because drama that I don't earnestly care about and doesn't affect me"
we're past that, stop bringing it up for no reason
Good video ? For real ? I mean, all this teasing just to repeat one more time what “1.03” does, implying that he was somehow part of the ucf team, and to beg Fizzi to add his unpeer reviewed mod (and we all know how good this approach has been with everything Hax tries to push) and asking the community to beg with him, and you feel that was a good video that resolves the controller legality the community is facing rn ?
Really ?
The Last Hope for Smash -> The Last Hope For Gamecube Controllers ✅🔥
Let's go! Stacking more reason why ever buying a controller for $400 is ridiculous.
Just having notches is a massive advantage, anyone who says different can go to bed.
Fixing so controllers and notched specific tech works more reliably makes for better gameplay without the cost.
Dash-Ooc isn't gonna win you a game but let's you do the thing you intended to do.
Let's go Hax and the advancement of the Melee scene! Fuck the regressive mentality where people wants to be stuck to the past!
1.03 should def be on Slippi!
"My memory card couldn't come at a better time" still waiting on mine after 3 weeks and being told it would come by Christmas
Even though you broke hearts for dropping Falcon back in the day, we can't help but love you so much now
There are modded controllers all over the market, yet people are scrutinizing the boxx? People are just afraid of what they don't know about
I’m like out of the loop of everything here, but now I’m convinced I need this 😭.
How would standardizing 1.03 for something like Panda's/Nintendo's circuit work when Nintendo has shown to be very anti software modding? I don't see any argument that could convince TOs of major events to include such a radical change when they're too worried about being shut down by doing something like freezing Stadium or not using stealth UCF.
Would 1.03 be considered software or hardware? because historically Nintendo is pretty relaxed when it comes to hardware changes.
@@slapshot09 It's 100% software. Hardware would be something like capacitors on controllers to stop snapback
I think 1.03 does overstep some things as far as that goes yeah. I don't see a reason why there couldn't be a "stealth" 1.03, but it wouldn't include things like windless Dreamland.
We already have UCF. All the changes of 1.03 can be done stealthily so that the game appears vanilla.
@@Rael0505 The stage changes can't be done stealthily, and we don't even know if UCF will be allowed for the Nintendo circuit yet
Yeah let’s implement all of this. Life is too short for us to deal with all this nonsense when we literally don’t have to.
Hax is like a great salesman I have no idea what he is selling but he is so convincing that I’m convinced
Leffen been real quiet since this dropped
its been 5 minutes 😂
Leffen been quiet for about a year straight now
@@rumfordc he scared
1.03 is the only path forward, no excuses. If the alternative is ever-ballooning controller costs and secondhand fixes making it harder and harder for onlookers to break into the scene then that alternative shouldn't be considered.
Unless someone is a dweeb who actively wants to pretend that controller RNG and in-game input registration RNG are core to Melee and thus shouldn't be fixed, no one should have much to say about this, especially when 1.03 is able to be applied to memory cards for free and works on both PAL, NTSC and 20XX.
Bring Melee into 2022. Why we haven't accepted a universal mod that allows for button modifications the same way that Ultimate does and buffs across the board to fix the jank that exists in the game is beyond me, considering that we play the game in the first place because of the mechanics and freedoms that come from it. The GameCube controller, as good as it is, is inherently flawed, and it makes no sense to me that production flaws in the micromillimeters can cause such a large impact in high-level competitive play. Your controller should just work out the gate, no strings attached. Hiding under a rock to maintain a purist mindset doesn't make you a bad person to begin with, but it does have a huge effect on a community that's barely trying to survive as it is. I don't want my 70 dollar purchase of a controller to be a lottery - I just want to play the game. I don't want to carve notches in my controller - I just want to play the game. I don't want to spend upwards of 300 dollars on controller modifications - I just want to play the game. I don't see why I have to settle for .9875 when 1 exists. I don't see why we've had these long drawn out debates about digital controllers when every other fighting game is doing just fine. The solution has been clear and present for so long - we've so much documentation, so many great ideas, and so much talent to just let it go to waste because we've been taking too long. Every other modern game allows for digital controls.
Shit, I just want Hax back. I want the people that otherwise can't play to play with us. Let them play so we can see what Melee should be - an otherwise technically sound video game with an incredible community, skill regardless.
My thoughts exactly
I love when people who nothing about the boxx, or simply don’t know enough, are calling for nerfs. The awareness and knowledge are very obviously not there.
yup.
wahhh wahh wahhh I can't do 2 brain cell combo wahhh.
Like at that point, just disable SDI from the game. There! Now we can all combo like traditional fighting games do. Fuckit, right?
@@rapidretrovenue563 Box controllers provide objective advantages and cost 150-200 dollars. Ban those and software mod the game so a wider range of affordable regular GC controllers become viable. Don't mod the game so GC controllers can do what they aren't supposed to be able to do but have to in order to keep up with box controllers. The only reason Hax advocates for it is because it's his business now.
Some of the 1.03 stuff was so weird, like how he wanted to fix 1.00 cardinal. It is essentially meant taking away subtle drift options regular GC controllers were capable by making them function EXACTLY like how Boxes do cardinal inputs. Goomwave did it much better, letting only a few outer values always give 1.00 cardinal values instead of the entire outer range on the four main cardinal directions
@@Bladieblah There is trade-off. Box controllers make complex stuff easier once you learn them, but some easier tech harder. Its not all sunshine and rainbows just cuz someone knows how to play on one, they had to actually learn how to play on the damn thing.
Gccs are just simply not well designed for competitive smash. Thats why it is inevitable for mods to come out and I'm fine with that. If you want to stay on Gcc and have optimized inputs, I don't see an issue with getting notches, cardinal inputs, all that fun stuff. Just don't try to bash on box controller player's credibilities as players because they have had to put in the work too.
Honestly, I don't really care for 1.03 AT ALL, but if it will stop gcc elitists from crying about box nerfs, then so be it. That's my stance on the whole thing.
@@rapidretrovenue563 GC's not being well designed for smash is just Hax propaganda. Sure, you can make a controller that can play smash MORE EFFECTIVELY, but that doesn't mean the original controller was not well designed for it. It was fine, people used it for years without issue, but you can squeeze out much more if you put directions on digital buttons instead of an analog stick because it's that much more simple and precise. Also, only the skill ceiling of a controller matters, how much of an advantage it provides when fully mastered within human limits, simply because we're looking for balance and fairness at top level play.
The issue with allowing new controller types is accessibility, not some sentimental thing "because GC is how we always did it", GC elitism is on I hadn't heard before but is also not a thing or the point. If you start having 150-200$ box controllers it raises the barrier of entry. The ideal situation is one where everyone's standard GC controller is capable of performing all the techniques good GC can consistently enough. No box controllers and no mods to make GC'S be able to do Boxx stuff.
@@Bladieblah I'm sick of this argument about "Oh but if little timmy and his 20 dollars can't compete with his gamestop controller than this is bad." Like thats how everything is.. Look at the top players of CSGO. They have super monitors that cost WAAAAAAAYYYYY more than any box would and the scene is BOOMING! Melee as it is is an inconsistent MESS that you will even find good players point out from time to time. Controller mods purely exist to add consistency so that if a players learns tech, they can actually perform it more reliably.
Case in point, you invest as much into melee as you see fit. You get what you pay for. If you're not willing to shell some money to invest in a good controller, don't try and ruin things for the people who actually invest in them and learn to play on them as well. Money is where its at, and this puts melee on the board as a profession. There's business in everything, nothing is free, live with it. Sorry if it sounds messed up, but money keeps things alive. Maybe when Timmy grows a little and gets a part time job, then he can invest in a good controller if he's that serious about melee. Simple.
Seems very reasonable
Hard disagree that gravity aerials aren’t feasible without a claw grip. That said I don’t have that many concerns with Z jump being legal.
This is classic Melee player mentality. I love it.
frame 1 aerials with a cstick are impossible on a 3 frame jumpsquat character without a claw grip. ive spent hours trying in the past and never even got it once. if you can do it then id like to see a video!
Them’s fighting words changing the claim from “aren’t feasible” to “impossible”
@@Spunney ? Who said anything about the c stick
@@Spunney but yes, I agree that moving your thumb from x/y to the c stick in 3 frames and being able to input a specific direction is not realistic. If that is the case that hax is referring to, then I don’t really have anything to say.
Hax is peak science but as always there's people who doubt reason even when reason is irrefutable
The melee community is unbelievable. Keep the game going!
I don't know if you ever explained this, but why make the boxx the new standard for controllers? Aren't we moving the goalposts a bit by doing that and therefore slowly moving further away from a concrete standard to base things off of?
Yeah, it seems kind of odd to me, too. If I had to guess, his reasoning is probably similar to the 1.0 vs. 0.9875 point; staying consistent with past proposed changes, aka buffs.
Let’s remove UCF entirely then I want my dash-backs to fail randomly. And while we’re at it let’s add tripping into melee cuz I want to be punished for trying to move and getting unlucky.
You should be able to do exactly what you want to do in melee at all times (even if it’s running away from your opponent and camping…) dash back, and everything you want to do, should be 100% consistent.
@@LANBobYonson I don't think you understand what my concern really is. Allow me to explain in a bit more detail. Currently, the B0XX is being balanced around the Gamecube Controller with UCF v.8.0. The B0XX can do some things better than the Gamecube Controller, but there are certain safeguards put in by the team which prevent it from overshadowing the GCC completely. However, now we are trying to buff the GCC using code which will increase its capabilities way greater than a stock controller without UCF. If it turns out that the B0XX is now weaker than the GCC, do we buff the B0XX to compensate? Do we nerf the newly buffed GCC, and if we do, what are we basing the nerfs off of? A standard GCC right out of the box? The B0XX? Theoretical capabilities of controller inputs? Because most of these are not concrete standards (excluding stock GCC, but that sucks to use tbh) but instead malleable through code changes and future discoveries, the whole idea of controller balance becomes much harder since we have no foundation to base it off.
At this point, it would make more sense to push all controllers (B0XX, GCC, and that technicolor rainbow in between) towards their theoretical perfect state since we at least have some idea of how to do that. However, that is not a "concrete standard" since every person will have their opinion of what a "perfect" controller looks like. This would also make Melee much less accessible to newcomers since not only do they have to obtain a 20 year old game/iso, a computer setup/CRT+gamecube, and controller, but now, that controller price essentially quintuples. If we implement code to standardize all GCC to avoid the price hike, then we run the risk of Nintendo shutting us down. We have been lucky so far, but with Nintendo (seemingly) taking a larger part in Melee, we have to exercise even more caution. Also, by not having a solid standard, we make it much harder for event organizers to maintain fair play. After all, what's to stop someone coming in with their custom box controller which doesn't have Hax's nerfs implemented? That would definitely hurt the integrity of the game, especially if that person were to become a top player.
Now, I must admit that I am playing a bit of devil's advocate here. Personally, I would like to get rid of any code changes to Melee such as UCF, but I would instead like for there to be more controllers/mods (B0XX, Goomwave, Smash Stick, arduinos, etc) to be used instead. I know logistically it would be very difficult, so I am okay with having UCF for now. However, I would like there to a clear foundation that we're basing everything off of. Let's use Street Fighter 2 as an example. When SSF2T came out for console, people realized that you could walk forward and throw sonic booms with Guile using the MixBox by holding 2 directional inputs at the same time (normally you have to hold back and then push forward to unleash it, making the move balanced around the fact you cannot walk forward). Of course, this controller was banned, but that is because the standard was based around the arcade stick and not the MixBox. Fast forward to Ultra Street Fighter 4, and we can see that the introduction of the PS4 controller allows Zangief to use a walking 720 motion (A 720 is where you spin the stick in a circle 2 times in quick succession. usually impossible to do while moving. Done by using the analog stick and the dpad). However, since the PS4 was considered a legal controller right from the get-go, this technique and other controllers which could perform something similar like this were allowed in competitive play. I believe that Melee is at an interesting point where we must now confirm what our controller's standard will be. Currently, the argument regarding controller legality seems to hinge on this point. If the community can come together and finalize a standard (whether that be B0XX or stock GCC), I believe this argument would be much easier to resolve. However, since people are torn on what the new standard is, it makes discussion much more difficult. I would like Hax to blatantly say what he believes the standard should be because it will make it much easier to understand his balancing decisions and lead the discussion in a more productive manner. I'm sorry this post is super long, but I just wanted to make sure I explained myself properly. Like I said, I'm not opposed to consistency (God knows how many times I've chucked my GCC for missing a dashback), but I think doing so just for the sake of progress is dangerous without clear goals and fundamentals.
The boxx should never be the new standard/baseline for controllers when a small amount of the community has them and they are currently unavailable/not for sale.
@@LightCave02 to answer you original question: because we want higher standards. if gamecube controllers suck, we should make them better. if a box is better then it should be the standard because better is better.
IMO tilt stick should be all or nothing like regular smash games PURELY because player preference can be toggled on or off easily in character select
Aziz Al-Yami First of all, thanks you for all the work you did for melee's controller with the boxx and melee 1.03
I agree with your direction of, for every technique which are possible on both controllers but have a varying success rate on both, to bring them in line by buffing both reliability to parity whenever possible. However, there is a line being drawn in a spot I don't like.
1.03's UCF and the BOXX have angles designed to help fox's frame 6 ledgedash, which require a perfect 1.0 X value. This is a buff from vanilla, but very much in line with the above rationale, which I agree with.
However, why is pikachu/pichu's double-up-b being nerfed instead of buffed to parity? It is possible but inconsistant in vanilla, just like fox's frame 6 ledgedash, yet it is being nerfed on the BOXX and Melee 1.03 instead of being buffed to parity.
This is just a small example, but I don't like that a specific input which serve only the top character (fox is the only one getting a tangible mechanical adventage from 1.0 coordinate instead of 0.9875) is being buffed, while a similarly precise input benefiting another character is being explicitly nerfed, instead of buffed.
My issue is not that much about that specific mechanic, but rather the rationale; bringing one aspect of controllers coordinate to parity in a way that specifically buff a single character, while simultaneously nerfing another aspect benefiting another single character (well, +pichu) seems like a slippery slope
That would fix a lot of stuff that needs to be fixed, I hope the community will accept it in the short future
Even just for casual play I really want this implemented it just looks like it all makes sense to do
imagine a holy being descends from the heavens but instead of it being god or jesus or mary magdalene it's some middle eastern guy with arthritis and he says "hey everyone it's hax, i recently talked with other members of the heaven melee community and we wanted to discuss what you guys think about the winged b0xx we're shipping today"
I'll have what this guy's smoking.
@@wompastompa3692 deadass
Does Hax have a background in technical documentation/engineering? If not, is all of this process methodology self-taught?
It’s hard to believe that there is someone this dedicated to improving the game. Well done
I think Hax is a savant of sorts
let's go hax, get this discussion going. it's kind of ludicrous that the method of doing this is through twitter screenshots within a youtube video, but that's the situation our authorities within the Melee community have put us into.
Not interested in discussing what I'm about to say;
I dislike the way Hax sells his ideas, I think usually the language and the persuasive tactics used are deceptive and rely on false assumptions (one is even prevalent in this video, ie; that because this controller fix is good, 1.03 is good)
BUT, This is absolutely 100% the correct take on how to solve the GC Boxx parity issue and I hope both the scene and Hax can come to a point where 1.03 controller fix is used, or these changes are applied to UCF as standard, without 1.03 as a whole being implemented.
Agreed. He comes off as obnoxious and rude with these videos, like he knows better than anyone else.
Agreed, something about his presentation runs me the wrong way. Nothing is presented with any nuance at all- “this is the problem you’re having and the only way (and only correct way) to fix it this way I proposed”.
Right or wrong about his changes it doesn’t sit well with me.
It also doesn’t help that the motivations are weird because these fixes address problems which are introduced mainly by him and his company. Which would call for even more nuance, but there is none.
I really, _REALLY_ don't understand the pushback on BOXX. Beyond standardization and *HARM REDUCTION* I have no idea why people relentlessly continue to shit on you, man. You're doing great work.
Is there a way to toggle on and off options in 1.03? The controller fixes are great, but for streamed tournaments some of the stage changes (for example) could trigger the litigious side of Nintendo
You can toggle the stage changes in the settings menu
If the b0xx is just better to play on then the community should just embrace it.
the idea of just limiting yourself to a controller that's impossible to find new is kind of ridiculous. LIke imagine if in fighting games they banned stickless boxes because they can do 2/3 frame fireballs/DPs.
smash kinda sucks tbh now that ive gotten into other games but a huge reason why i left smash to begin with was because all i wanted to do was do hella waveshines all day every day and it fucking hurt my hands. fun techniques shouldnt be physically painful. i shouldnt be forced to play shiek just because trying to be 20XX hurts my hands
IT'S LIKE HAX IS ANSWERING EVERYONES QUESTIONS AND NO ONE IS LISTENING. THE UNCROWNED KING
It's awesome seeing people push the game forward even in 2022. Standardize 1.03
Hacks, if you want people to take you seriously and listen to you. You should go on stream with some Malay pros and talk about it, or just talk about it to them in DM‘s if you want
Are the reworks somewhat implemented in project m? It seems so much easier to do everything on that compared to melee
The game is based on the brawl engine, which doesnt have these issues
Not having a controller mod puts you at some disadvantage this help people get into it
why is fox frame 6 ledgedash the standard we MUST not breach? Why would 7 frames not be tolerable?
Because you wouldn’t want box players to have to get one less frame of galint.
I think he was saying that the box has a wavedash angle nerf already and changing cardinal will make ledgedash fail unless you change the angle too which could be a bigger buff to the boxx
If we don’t adopt these fixes then we might as well unfreeze every stage and go to PAL.
and bring back the apex 2009 ruleset and stagelist
All items, bowser only, Temple
He’s speaking facts. PAL is the newest official version of melee. So, why don’t we all switch back.🙃
All I really want is a way to have gamecube controllers to be basically the same after purchasing them without the need to mod them like crazy. To me getting these types of fixes done will allow regular people and more controllers viable for high end gameplay without the necessity for mods to even just get a chance to function at that level. I've always liked the idea of the Boxx controller too, i don't understand why people need to ban or hate it.
i member back in the day when the thumbnail for this video was the SD card
I'm a fan of this. Also with the rise of goomwave I believe that the boxx uptilt nerf should be removed. The goomwave has uptilt buffs which make it free. I play some one who does pivot uptilts with their goom
not only is this healthier for the scene moving forward, it also makes the game much more accessible by making any gcc controller viable and makes the game in some ways "easier" but in a healthy way that does not remove the games skill cieling but instead by fixing inherent issues with a controller that makes the game more playable.
Your videos make a lot of sense. I think that melee should strive for consistency and having to shell out big bucks for a coomwave controller isn't a good solution.
Love it
Support it
Defend it
Integrate it
Would love to see Fizzi back Hax$ I mean what's the community gonna do? Start bashing Fizzi, lol
Fizzy isn't going to back Hax after what happened with Leffen.
@@biggs2560 you'd be surprised how many veterans of the smash scene still back Hax, not everyone blindly agrees with soyboys like Slime.
IMO this video is the shakiest of all the ones Hax has made on Melee mechanics/changes. I get that he wants to stay consistent by suggesting buffs over nerfs, but it seems like now he’s doing so by setting the B0XX as the controller standard. His comment on how UCF was failing to do its job in particular seemed…distasteful, I guess? I’m fine with the changes themselves (except _maybe_ with shield dropping, but even then I don’t think it’s egregious or anything), but I don’t agree with this new reasoning.
I see what you mean, however, I have to disagree. The goal of these changes is to promote consistency. Top players will pay for top controllers (like goomwave), which can costs hundreds of dollars. These changes, like UCF, aim to make every controller a good controller. It would no longer be about how expensive of a controller you can afford.
Lowering the barrier to entry is the key to getting and retaining new players.
I don’t like everything included in 1.03, but it seems to be a healthy way to move forward amidst some of the other controller modifications that allowed.
This can also be applied to Boxx vs GCCs.
Thought, I admit, I’m not sure what to do about BoXX’s SDI situation.
I think the c stick tilt changes a
are too far for most competitive players, but 1.03 controller changes are money
great video, looking forward to the next one. thanks for all your effort for our community, hax!
the fact that all of this stuff is possible but the controller is a barrier makes this a no-brainer to me. These arent macros. Only thing I would say is that these changes feel pretty amazing for captain falcon. Wizzy being able to run at 1.0 speed and dash back out of crouch could actually be kinda broken. At the very least I support having a community wide testing period. Put this on slippi
Wow, I didn't even know wiggle out of tumble was a thing. Always thought you had to like, aerial or something out of it. Such an ambiguous and sneaky state to be put it.
I’m personally all for making qol changes to smash, but the purist in me is worried it may be a slippery slope. Does that uptilt toggle on the goomwave do what I think it does? I’m only recently getting more seriously into smash, all this controller stuff is pretty wild.
We have Hax in our corner to shed light on the issue. lol They know deep down they're no match for you in-game or outside of it.
I have never seen so much outright ableism from so many members of the community before.
I believe in full controller liberation. Melee should be easy to play!
The competitive integrity argument is so dumb. It will benefit whoever puts the most time into it, top players. Like always.
The bottom line is that melee 1.03 will share a higher level of melee with more people. Period.
Yeah make it where everyone has a big giant fucking one hit ko move thats frame one and goes through invincibility so the game is accessible for literally anyone on the fucking planet, even a fucking jellyfish
@Just Some Loser Correct. We should make everyone in the NBA play in wheelchairs so that paraplegics can participate.
No arguments just seething and strawmen
Wouldn't there be situations where the shield drop y value change would interfere with trying to intentionally spotdodge?
Probably time for hax to find a job, these foos aren't gonna let him back to melee tournaments
harsh truth..
Yeah, idk how he has the willpower to deal with such whiny people.. Its literally become his job.
He shouldn't have tripled down on attacking Leffen just because he called out a random documentary. Hax did this to himself and I have zero sympathy after he refused to back down. That's the price you pay for being stubborn.
@@biggs2560 People slip up. Emotions can get the best of even the most calm and composed people. ESPECIALLY when it pertains to something one is passionate about. Being unforgiving to someone because they're human even after they've owned up to it sometime after is no less stubborn in nature.
based hax, i love this little man so much
why have i been watching all the 1.03/b0xx videos... i dont even play melee
good stuff hax money
I use one of those Nintendo lisences usb gcc that are meant for ultimate on slippi. I always get 1.0 inputs because it calibrates on startup of the game. I can also use dolphins button binding system to get z jump. I’m not sure why people use old gcc on slippi
I used to use one too, I get the customization for it is a plus, but original gcc are so much better all around.
@@veggie4876 why vanilla gcc is better than usb nintendo gcc?
@@leodexe I should have said imo. I think the button placement and general feel and accuracy it has is amazing
Well I'm not an expert but I have alot of trouble with shield drops on all 3 of my gc controllers so 🤷 I really like the idea of buffing the gcs especially because we already have, the more viable controllers the better
See these are the videos you need to make, not the whack ass leffen drama.
1.03 should allow you to swap all buttons as you want.
°v°
I would love that bc then i could finally play Melee with the button layout i always use.
R = Grab
Z = Jump
X = doesnt matter (In this case its shield)
The Panda Controller or the Smash Stick from AltLab will have a remap feature anyway so why not implement this into the game anyway?
I also would LOVE to have tap jump off as an option but, like someone in the comments said, it may all meddle too far into what the game is meant to be.
(I still hope that this feature will kept be in tho. I really, REALLY hate tap jump. >~
buffing for even playing field >>
I wonder when Hax is gonna get a visit from the Nintendo feds... They love harassing people who dare to improve their products.
Maybe parody the Panda gamecube controller
wahhhh wahhhhh people are using a better controller than me wahhhhh
I am formerly requesting this role
With everyone modding the game so much. Why haven't we fixed game and watch l cancel?
Legitimately there's no excuse with how much modification of vanilla you need for a " tournament legal setup?"
Probably because if G&W gets fixed people will want other characters fixed. The next person will want Luigi's final dash attack hitbox enabled, Bowser mains will want their shield bigger so they can powershield, Kirby mains will want throws to not be escapable etc. etc it's a bad precedent for non-stop character mods that will ultimately lead to a can of worms like "if that character got buffed by fixed L cancels, Zelda should have faster grab" and "Samus's chargeshot charge shouldn't disappear when she recovers and should be heavier", "Remove Mewtwo's tail hurtbox" etc. etc. It's better not mess with this slippery slope of character buffs. Games like Project M already do something similar anyway.
lol there's no way a controller without an analog stick can compete with a gamecube controller
These, are not the Boxx controllers you are looking for...
Genius Hax
I thought Melee was all about pushing the limits
Thanks professor h@x!
Can 1.03 work on a pal crt setup?
this is incredible, however top players will continue to crab-in-bucket mentality the scene until the ultimate downfall of the community, or a massive regression by banning or seriously limiting other controller options.
Why not just add transition function from "getting up from crouch" to "run backwards"