@@slashtitan1035 I wouldn't go that far, maybe saying that about the Grievous adaptation, but TCW is imo one of the best pieces of Star Wars media ever.
I think making him similar to Vader makes Vader an even better character, because he not only becomes what he sought to destroy, but also the reincarnation of someone that had killed so many of his Jedi brethren.
Exactly, in Legends they are even purposefully similiar, Grievous is the Vader of the clone wars, and Anakin intensely hated him. Shame that the build up they created between Ep 2 and 3 never came to fruition, Anakin vs Grievous would have been an interesting fight if they sticked to his legends character in Ep 3.
I completely agree with you. Also, the fact that we dont actually get to see Vader kill any jedi in the movies other than his old master who lets Vader kill him and his own son who he doesnt want to kill already takes away from Vader's spotlight.
I actually think that the 2003 Grievous leads well going into Revenge of the Sith. At the end of the micro series we see that Grievous gets his upper body crushed by Mace Windu. Which not only creates the cough but severely injures him which is why he runs away. On top of that in his training session with Dooku he is told "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. But if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory and have your trophy" When confronted by Anakin and Obi-Wan he is not only injured but lacking all three of the things Dooku recommends. He also lacks those on Utupau against Obi-Wan because Kenobi catches Grievous by surprise.
I always thought the reason grievous was so weak in episode 3 was due to his lung injury in the end of the cartoon series. Having his rib cage crushed should have hopelessly crippled him, and it did.
@@chadcostello1407 personally when it comes to Star Wars I just say “ fuck it things are so screwed up that I’ll just decide what I think is Canon” It’s worked so far
This all comes down to the fact that the power level of the force became too much. In the original trilogy it was something that required immense concentration, and as they up scaled it every fight that wasn’t a force user vs force user made no sense. There is no reason for the Jedi to not just crush or rag doll any enemy that doesn’t use the force because tbeyve been shown time and time again that they could just do that
The only thing I will contest here is that in Revenge of the Sith, I about expected him to be that way. Mace crushed his torso and lungs, and since ROTS takes place IMMEDIATELY after that, it makes sense for him to be coughing and vulnerable. But I WILL concur that the CGI Clone Wars series DID botch the character. Badly.
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart with all sincerity fucking thank you. You have no idea how many people have Paradoxically ignored these facts, they claim to love the 2003 series well despising them revenge of the Sith version and yet it seems like they didn’t even watch the 2003 series, you are the first person I’ve seen actually making sense and This old old debate has been happening online for years so, thank you
@@MoreLoreThenThereSeems Is there any paradox in that? I think not. Grievous in the ROTS novel and the comic book is the same Grievous that got his lungs crushed by Windu. And yet the way he acts, talks and the way other characters react to him is way different from the movie and is much more in line with what we've seen in CW 2003 and elsewhere. So ROTS Grievous is still a completely different character, even the creators admit as much.
@@ForsakenDreamer7 I have never heard of the creators stating such not saying it didn’t happen by the way and personally I see a through line for the character, they’re pretty similar to me of course they’re Almost one to one to me
@@MoreLoreThenThereSeems The makers of the 2003 show confirmed in the audio commentary that their initial instructions for Grievous as a "ruthless, totally capable Jedi killer" were scrapped in favor of a mustache twirling villain. You can clearly see that movie Grievous is extremely different from his novel and comic counterparts. Movie Grievous laughs like an idiot when he loses his ship and fails his mission. Novel Grievous stays silent and is clearly dissapointed in the same scene.
While I loved the cgi clone wars series and thought it was amazing I have to agree on this point. Grievous was a badass because he was a Jedi hunter that didn't even need the force to take down his foes. The 2003 version emphasized really well how terrifying his character should be.
If anyone is salty about the way he died in the movie, you are welcome to read the 2005 Revenge of the Sith comic book, his fight with Obi Wan is much better there.
@@wizbromanakajeffthejoykill7635 Not now, he was toned down literally in the season where he debuted, supposedly because parents at the time thought he was too much for the kids and that he looked like the devil or something (all things considered, it's kind of badass he was deemed so menacing that he had to be reworked). Like, he was still evil but he was nowhere near as serious and ruthless as in his first appearance. It's not all bad though, they brought Rita back thanks to that and he still got moments to shine, like his battle against the White Ranger. The character has been treated with much more respect in other media anyway, so it's not like we got the worst possible outcome.
I feel like people are missing the fact that in the 2003 Clone Wars, when Grievous was training with Count Dooku, Dooku *specifically* told Grievous to flee from a fight if he cannot win it. Plus, he was made to be as a placeholder for Darth Vader so that’s why he was so scary and terrifying during his debut. I don’t call that cowardice. He may be a Jedi Killer, but a warrior knows when to back down from a fight.
Yeah but the reboots did that too far they made him essentially look like a b!tch and not the killing machine he was meant to look like and he does follow that strategy when he briefly had a confrontation with Windu in the old show he took heavy damage from Windu so fled. That’s how he should be not this coward he is today
I always thought the big difference between how Greivous and Vader hunted Jedi was that Vader and Grievous both wanted you to know they were coming, but Greivous didn't want you to know when and how, so he could take advantage of your fear and uncertainty and if you were unafraid and certain he would be forced to flee. But with Vader, he wanted you to know how and when he was coming so that you can struggle for him until he eventually crushes you with pure willpower to get his mark so h could het as much enjoyment out of the struggle of killing you as possible. Vader was heavyhanded while Greivous was underhanded
Who gives a F lmaooo his character is trash asf anyways and his death was well deserved never been so happy to see a trash characters body drop down to the floor.
Lucas said that this Grievous would've been a Vader copy, but I disagree. -Where Vader appears like a high ranking warlord, Grievous appears like a brute monster. -Where Vader's battle stance requires little movement across the battlefield, keeping his opponents on their toes instead, Grievous is the one ambushing and running circles around his prey. -Where Vader's bionics where added to keep him alive and fix and improve his physique without getting in the way of his lightsaber skill and force abilities, Grievous' bionics are the very source of his alien, almost insectoid fighting style, which more than make up for his lack of force powers. -Where Vader is clad in all black to stalk in the shadows, embody the dark side and overall seem very elegant, Grievous is clad in all white, always drawing the attention to his unique body and giving the striking image of a grim reaper, especially the mask. -George claimed he wanted Grievous to be an echo of Vader, and even his old origin would've worked here, their hatred towards the Jedi being fueled by the ones they loved and lost.
I partially agree.... yes, he appears as a "cheap" villain. But the Samurai Jack cartoon sees him being Force Crushed by master Windu and so is enduring/surviving the rest of the movie. But yes,also Clone Wars "kiddified" him.
@@night6724 They are just droids. The jedi and clones practically do that all the time in any and every piece of media. Doesn't matter how many storm troopers where thrown at Luke or any jedi, they always curbed stomped them. At least in the 2003 series the combat looked actually GOOD animation wise.
@@night6724 I'll explain. 1) If we don't count the seismic tank and all the B1 battledroids manning it, aswell as all the B2 battledroids that got crushed when it fell from the sky (which we shouldn't because taking out a massive target like that, or the Death Star, or the Trade Federation station in TPM always racks up a lot of kills) Mace Windu only destroyed at most a few hundred B2 battledroids on Dantooine. He was figthing alongside a huge army of clones before the seismic tank appeared and doing about as effective as one would expect him to do. He only appeared "overpowered" for a few minutes when he was left completely alone and still had to temporarily leave the battlefield and catch a breath. This feat is also described in the Labyrinth of Evil as the staff of legends, not something he can accomplish consistently. All this implies that Windu had nowhere near the power to destroy all the B2 battledroids on Dantooine by himself and only briefly went sicko mode (most likely tapping into Vaapad) to get to the seismic tank and destroy it before it finishes off what's left of the clone army there. 2) In the AOTC novel Dooku states that the Jedi on the arena are up against atleast 100000 battledroids, some of which are B2s or even more dangerous and heavy models. And that doesn't even account for the Geonosians with their blatantly overpowered sound blasters which the Jedi can't counter in any way. Mace couldn't save anyone as he himself was desperate to survive. 3) The same novel also states that reason he jumped into the arena was not the droids but the fact that he realized he stood no chance in fighting Dooku and Jango at the same time. 4) I also have to completely disagree with what you've said about the artstyles of the shows being similar, or the fights in TCW 2008 being good. The only fight in that show which I really think was great was Dooku vs Anakin, Obi Wan and the Pykes. But whatever.
@@night6724 1) Again, if you count the destroyed droids individually, they don't even remotely reach that number. Of the 100 Jedi on the arena the only ones capable of surviving for some time and contributing anything at all are those that ended up surviving. Which means that in a matter of minutes the odds shifted from 1000 to 1 to several times worse. Just *what* do you expect them to do? 2) Windu has to defeat the amount of droids he can't possibly defeat and once that's done (it won't be) he'll have to throw hands with Dooku. Which, knowing their history, is a near hopeless fight by itself, even with Windu using the full extent of his powers. So it's quite the choice when to tap into Vaapad. 3) Not a single Jedi on that arena is capable of blocking Windu's full powered Force blasts that send entire batalions of B2s flying. They will all be swept off their feet into the storm of blasterfire. Vader is vastly more powerful than Starkiller's father, here it's the other way around. 4) Just because the creators tried to mimick the 2003 artstyle, doesn't mean they have succeeded. 5) It's explained by the characters like Atton Rand that it's entirely possible for the non Force sensitive beings to mask their thougts and even their presence from the Jedi. Given who GG's master was I'm quite certain he'd be taught these techniques. Which may not even be necessery considering that Grievous is barely a living a being in the first place. 6) Staff like the Labyrinth of Evil has Grievous with his CW 2003 power level, a complex character and an infinitely better backstory than he has in Canon. There's a reason he's mostly referred to as "Legends Grievous" and not just the one part that is "CW 2003 Grievous". So your argument about the lack of development and direction is not quite valid. 7) No amount of kryptonite would save Lex Luther from Superman if the latter cast aside his limiting morals. Grievous is obviously nothing like that and is not going to hold back anything. Gungans defeating the actual Legends Grievous would not be physically possible. Not only was he shown to resist or completely ignore much stronger electric weapons, but it just can't be done period. They are skilled and determined figthers, but it means nothing in the face of someone like Grievous. The difference in speed and reflexes is just hilarious. An abyss would be an understatement. He has countless evasion feats that make this whole sutuation look like a joke.
@@ForsakenDreamer7 say what you want about the 2003 series but you have to admit a lot characters were uncharacteristically overpowered so nerfing Grevious was necessary unless you wanted another StarKiller situation which isn’t a good idea either.
George clearly didn't know what he wanted. He tells gendy and his team Grevious was a jedi killer, but then also says he's a mustache twirling coward who never wins. He claims he didn't want grievous to be a terrifying jedi killer and steal vaders thunder, but also states the inspiration behind creating grievous was to have a similar character to vader anyway. Man really needed someone holding his hand throughout the process.
Ironically I became a fan of his before even knowing about 2003-2005 Clone Wars ironically, he’s still a jedi killing warrior. He’s still got his strength and abilities and many times uses it. It’s just not enough.
Well if we recognize a pattern here, it’s that the older Grevious got, the weaker he became. Age has really worn him out fast both physically and mentally and we can see this in the ways he is coughing more and more
@@ragemonster4277 This is patently not the case if we look at The Clone Wars (2008) which starts only a few months after the war began. Since that series (which I do love but not for its treatment of Grievous) took over as canon, it means that Grievous was always a weak coward and terrible general who does not in anyway live up the reputation he supposedly has in the Star Wars universe, which is really unfortunate given the potential of the character presented in 2003 Clone Wars and his comic book backstory, He was turned into a Saturday morning cartoon villain, which is not just my description, that's literally what Lucas said he wanted him to be.
@@hdns4 actually it was reported by Lucas films 2003 clone wars would connect with 2008 clone wars and they would not interfere with the continuity. Disney has placed 2003 CW in a rather grey area with its cannon but considering it hosts it on Disney+ and there is no other new SW media that replaces it, it’s safe to assume it’s cannon
@@ragemonster4277 You have a source for that? Either way, whatever Lucasfilm may have claimed, 2008 Clone Wars and 2003 Clone Wars simply can not coexist canonically. The two series contradict each other at multiple points, namely with Grievous right from the start not just in how he acts, but with one his most fundamental characteristics, that being his cough. In 2003 Clone Wars, he gets in when Windu crushes his chest while he is capturing the Chancellor, which is almost at the end of the war. In 2008 Clone Wars, he has the cough right from the beginning. There's no sweeping that under the rug. They continue to contradict each other in little ways, but they do so massively again by changing the circumstances of which Anakin and Obi-Wan find out about the attack on the Coruscant. In 2003, it's after their mission on Nelvaan and it's just the two of them, while in 2008 it's after the Battle of Yerbana and their discussion of the Siege of Mandalore and of course Ahsoka is there. Also that Battle of Nelvaan presents another fairly large contradiction in that Anakin still has his gold hand and gets his black gloved hand after it is destroyed in that battle, while in 2008 Clone Wars he once again has it right from the start. Oh, and none of these things come from Disney either. Two of them happened long before the Disney purchase, and the other was still planned before the Disney purchase (you can look into Dave Filoni's discussion of the unfinished episodes for proof of that). To say that Clone Wars 2003 is in a canonically grey area is putting it very, very lightly and that has nothing to do with Disney. That's all George Lucas and Dave Filoni. Whatever promise you think Lucasfilm made to "connect" the two series, they abandoned that idea very quickly.
@@hdns4 Well actually 2008 TCW was meant to be a 2003 continuation. Then they did some weird warp around, though. Made it even worse as yes, 2003 WAS canon back in legends stuff. So 2003 is canon to legends, and 2008 to the newer canon. ~~We will not speak of that abysmal decision of trying to shove 2008 into legends~~
I never seen Grievous as a coward. He was always one of my favorite villains, he had 4 arms and a scary voice. I always thought he was an absolute menace to The Jedi society, and his retreats in my eyes were always tactical
Yeah. Clone Wars Grievous gets thrown around a good bit, but here's the thing. He's perpetually going 1v[insert number here] against telekinetic, telepathic, sometimes precognitive space wizards. He is a robot with plasma swords. There's a power gap here. Him getting thrown around every so often is more honest to the lore of the series, even if it makes him mildly less overpowered seeming. And honestly, he doesn't need to feel any more powerful than Dooku. Dooku taught him, not the inverse, and when you mix that with the ability to quad wield, that can be pretty strong, but it doesn't make him any more lethal than Dooku on his own, and I see Dooku as worth about 2 average Jedi, hence why he beat Obi Wan and Anakin each separately during the start of the Clone Wars. Grievous is able to potentially handle up to four Jedi if he gets lucky, and they mess up, but overall, he isn't going to be some unstoppable force against everyone just for kicks.
@@theendersmirk5851 You mean the telekinetic, telepathic, sometimes precognitive space wizards he is *specifically* trained to hunt down and kill? The ones which he’s only portrayed as doing so in the miniseries and not later media in the slightest?
@@wildfire9280 Yeah. Being trained to hunt something down, and being able to so so to multiple at once, are two different things. He doesn't have their cheats, and realistically, beyond the fact he can scare Jedi every so often, he doesn't even have a real counter to their Force abilities. He can't use it, nor is his armor made of an alloy resistant to being pushed by the force (if one even existed), so all he is is a walking blender. If he can scare a weaker Jedi, he can snag a quick kill or two, but more skilled Jedi, who are less easy to frighten, are more likely to at least survive the encounter. And note, during the animated Clone Wars show, his worst defeat wasn't even to a Jedi, it was to an entire army of Gungans using their weaponry, weapons the rest of the galaxy mostly ignored or wrote off due to being less gun based, and more based on fighting styles we'd consider medieval or earlier. He had the least amount of training against them, and even then he was mostly downed by being cheap shotted due to a gungan sacrificing himself to give the encircling army the element of surprise. Mix that with the fact Ahsoka is by far the least skilled Jedi who we see actually escape Grievous in a 1v1 during the entire series (and she's trained by Anakin, and had to fight in way too many battles in the clone wars to be considered weak). We're not shown his successful hunts, but the thing is, that's not necessarily going to be interesting in all cases. Maybe one or two, but primarily, if a main character, who is set to survive the series, fights him, then you know they'll at least get away, if not outright injure him enough that he has to retreat.
@@theendersmirk5851 Being faster than the force itself is definitely a useful counter to force abilities. It’s also pretty fitting for a creature built for this kind of thing.
I would just like to point out that the padawan who panics and gets crushed by grievous, who looks like shaggy from scooby doo, is literally named Sha'a Gi. The loss of Sha'a Gi from canon is perhaps the greatest loss star wars has seen to date. Aside from that though, I honestly don't know if I prefer 2003 grievous. He's way more generic. Whenever Tartakovsky saw the Grievous design George brought him he saw a killing machine and George saw a Saturday morning carton villain. But I think that fascinatingly enough reversed it for me in some ways. When I think of this Grievous I think of Shredder or something. 2008 Grievous is by far more of a Saturday morning cartoon character, in both his personality and role within the 2008 series, but that makes the few brutal moments he gets, committing genocide against the night sisters, killing kit fisto's former padawan, mowing down clones and stabbing scrappers in the back, all seem way darker than the kills he got in 2003. Like one moment he's this angry, cynical, sick old man and than all of the sudden he's a death machine responsible for the deaths of millions of civilians and at least like 12 jedi personally. I think it's like those people who find out that the old man who lived on their street and gave out apples on Halloween was a cereal killer. Also, it's probably just me, but I find an angry coward with a few strokes of genius way more entertaining than what is essentially just a standard villain architype. No judging though, I think both grievous' are cool in their own ways. It would have been hard to make grievous competent on screen during 2008 clone wars considering almost no one can die, but I defiantly wish we got to see him in action more than we did. It would have helped justify his position. With the 2003 one, you get why Dooku and Sidious trust him to kidnap the chancellor.
Grevious learned how to counter a Jedi's attack pattern just by fighting them once, and learned so quickly that fighting him more than once was basically suicide, as he could almost predict your moves before they happen. This is why Mace Windu refused to fight him. He feared that if grevious survived the encounter, he would be unstoppable. Obi wan fought him several times in the clone wars, meaning that once they fought in ROTS, grevious should've won within less than a minute
@@somethingwithultra7231 Given that TCW is trash, I'm not surprised. Also it wasn't legends, it was stuff that was worked on in tandem with George Lucas, much like Tartakovsky's 2003 cartoon. It only became legends after the house of mouse got its greedy rodent fingers on Starwars, and retconned half of everything.
One of the major parts of grievous that annoys me is the fact he got a cooler looking design that was shown in season 7 of the clone wars in an opening to an episode, but we never saw anything involving grievous with this new design
They could’ve kept 2003 Grievous and it would actually still serve George’s vision, as not only Grievous would foreshadow Vader’s physical transformation, but also foreshadow being an even more effective and dangerous Jedi killer. Legends Grievous was the Terminator to Jedi, and would be a good precursor to Canon Vader, as Vader is seen as almost death itself to Jedi, a literal boogeyman. A symbol of pure terror. Not a simple Jedi killing machine like Grievous was, but far worse. As Vader has what Grievous doesn’t, the Force, and has one of the strongest powers over it. Both also have very different and distinctive styles of killing Jedi. So “nerfing” Grievous wasn’t really necessary.
Vader was heavyhanded as in he wanted you to know how and when he was coming for you, he enjoyed the struggle of killing you and didn't need to rely on surprise and intimidation like Grievous did. Grievous was underhanded, he wanted you to know he was coming like Vader, but he didn't want you to know when or how so he can throw you off balance and take advantage of your fear and uncertainty, if they're unafraid he *has* to run, Vader doesn't.
@@no-ro6by yeah I think that too but just on Jedi who aren't masters or very strong knights. Dooku even tells him that fear surprise and intimidation are Greivous' greatest weapon and tells him that if one of those elements is missing he should flee. But 2003 cw isnt canon anymore so that conversation never happened
@@no-ro6by nah without the fear Grievous pretty much will get one shotted by any concentrated force ability as seen with Mace, who is just completely unflappable.
@@LucyWest370 well mace is a special case cause he’s as strong as yoda normally he would be able to destroy any jedi in a duel but i see what you mean i mean it’s just hard to say cause we haven’t seen him in his prime without the aspect of fear
Grievous' characterization in Revenge of the Sith made sense. He himself had every reason to believe he was an invincible killing machine, only to get his lungs nearly crushed at the last second as he was completing his mission. I know I'd be way more paranoid and cautious than ever before for at least a week after that, if that were me. Him getting his hands cut off so quickly by Obi-Wan was actually because of Kenobi's lightsaber style as well. Grievous hadn't fought a master of the defensive form before then, though that wasn't stated in the movie. He was definitely ruined in 2008 Clone Wars though, no argument there.
George Lucas: “it’s like poetry, Sorta, It rhymes” Also George: “we can’t have Vader, A vicious cybernetic Jedi killer mirror Geievous, Another vicious cybernetic Jedi killer, That’s stupid!”
@@skaionex I hate everything about the Inquisitors' existence and this is the core of why. it's also so fucking cheap how the Grand Inquisitor is apparently the one who killed the Temple Guards now, because all it really does is serve to dampen Vader's legacy as the supposed greatest Jedi killer
The idea that Grievous became weaker after Mace Windu crushed his chest during the kidnapping of Chancellor Palpatine was such a good idea. It’s too bad they didn’t carry that through in TCW.
That's because Mace crushing his chest happened RIGHT BEFORE the start of the third movie Which makes his hacking throughout the CG show all the more ridiculous
@@jeremyallen5974 the 2003 special that provided that information was retconned by George, it’s not part of George Lucas canon, it’s technically part of the EU. That’s what my comment was getting at, it’s a shame they didn’t carry that idea through to the Clone Wars, or at least make it so getting his chest crushed explains why he’s so weak at the beginning of ROTS compared to his later appearance in the movie, as well as his appearances in TCW.
@@jeremyallen5974 what…? I didn’t call anyone a moron? What are you talking about? What you’re referring to is from the 2003 clone wars series, which is part of the EU, not George Lucas (official) canon. I already explained that above. The Clone Wars (the CG show) is part of George Lucas canon, “Clone Wars” (the 2003 series) is part of the EU. The EU has no baring on George Lucas canon, as it wasn’t created by him. Either you didn’t read my comment, or you’re mistaking me with someone else- because I’ve addressed everything you said. Cheers
If you have to completely throw away and belittle one character's story and capabilities just in order to make your figurehead character not lose any merit, maybe reevaluate how you can give that figurehead more merit in the first place
It's one of the things that I can never truly forgive The Clone Wars for. It would have been one thing if they kept him in line with ROTS but instead they tripled down on him being a joke. He kills 1 single Jedi through the entire show, that being Nahdar Vebb and he doesn't even do it with his lightsabers, instead shooting him with a blaster during a saber lock. I get that they didn't want to integrate 2003/legends Grievous into the early seasons because it was very much a kids show and having Grievous tearing through Jedi like butter may not have suited the demographic. But even in later, darker seasons he's a complete joke, if anything he's worse because he gets taken down by a bunch of Gungans.
I'm fine with the ROTS Grievous because the 2003 Clone Wars explained why he became weak so suddenly. But man, Filoni's 2008 Grievous was like Worf times a million.
Probably the worst thing to learn is how the only reason Grievous was Retconned into someone so useless one would be puzzled as to why he is in any position of authority is cause Lucas thought DARTH FUCKING VADER, litteraly one of the most widely known characters in fiction, wouldn't be able to stand his ground against a competent grievous in terms of popularity. Goddammit Lucas, vader was and still is awesome, let us see what he'd be like if he had the speed of a xenomorph and no force powers.
I agree, The senate decided to keep the clone war going because general grievous was still alive after the death of dooku. But considering the fact all he did was run and hide I think that Griveous being a huge threat to the Jedi would have made more sense, That grievous sounds like they would use the end of the war to their advantage, destroying planets of the allies for the republic so that if the clone wars continued they would have the advantage, instead we got a comic relief toy…
@@bable6314 English is my first language, But as i said i sometimes say the wrong pronouns so i just find it easier to refer to things as they/them, Would you rather me get your pronouns wrong on accident or just refer to you as "they/them"?
When you create a Jedi killing “Machine” so efficient! That the creator of star wars gets scared that his monster might get over shadowed by it shows a lot. Someone’s gotta put George on a leash next time before he dooms another movie villain
Agreed. George killed off Boba and he killed off Maul because he didn't want them over shadow his original heros and villains. He should have not allowed those villains to be written so well or better yet just embrace the love the fans had for those new creations.
To be fair, a huge trope in Star Wars is to establish a badass looking villain and discard them or what makes them cool immediately. At least in the movies. Grievous loses two of his four arms right away in his big fight with Obi Wan. Captain Phasma gets taken hostage and thrown in the trash before falling into a pit. Boba Fett gets smacked by a blind man and is eaten by a sand hole. Jango's jetpack also gets damaged before he loses his head. And to a lesser extent, Maul gets his unique lightsaber cut in half during a 1v1
dooku dispatches the two main protagonists in his old age and still maintains a fight with the jedi grandmaster only to be amputated and decapitated within the first 20 minutes of the next movie
The sad thing, its not just Grievous, but the CIS as a whole who got diminished to a comic-relief in 2008 TCW. Like they pretend as if the Geonosis incident of Episode 2 never happened, where hundreds of Jedi get mauled down by regular battle droids, yet alone how Count Dooku basically trolled Obi-Wan and Anakin in a 2v1. This was the last time were CIS characters and military units actually were imposing and threatening, at least towards Republic & Jedi.
Despite the fact that Clone Wars (CGI) didn't show the badass that he was, I still love him in it all the same, in fact, it's where my love for the character originated and its one I still have to this day
That’s facts. Clone wars 2008 had few flaws but Grievous being a weak coward and Count Dooku being a 2d villain were two major flaws. Also Anakin fighting Dooku every ten episodes taking away from their final duel in revenge of the Sith. To counter this in episodes where Anakin fought Dooku he could just fight one of Dooku’s Dark Acolytes
I disagree. In the book it describes how dooku previously fought Anakin and how in a very short period of time Anakin had completely surpassed dooku. I think it fits his character and how much raw power and skill he had
@@winnietheflu4633 Which is complete nonsense as it originally took Anakin 3 years to get to the level where he can barely beat Dooku with Obi Wan's help. In a fight that was completely rigged in his favor by Sidious. Anakin never surpassed Legends Dooku.
@@ForsakenDreamer7 in my opinion that’s 100% not true. Definitely not what’s implied by the story. Anakin during ROTS was pretty much the single most powerful being in the galaxy. His raw skill and talent alone with his experience gained from the clone wars is insane. Obiwan was knocked out of the fight pretty quick and anakin mopped the floor with dooku. He even completely switched his fighting style mid fight just to throw dooku off.
@@winnietheflu4633 1) "Anakin during ROTS was pretty much the single most powerful being in the galaxy" - while that is the case, he was certainly not the best fighter in the galaxy and used his power like a toddler would use a machine gun. The incident on Tithe is the obvious proof of that. 2) "Obi Wan was knocked out of the fight pretty quick" - not in the novel, he wasn't. If anything, Dooku seems more scared of him than Anakin in the first half of the fight. Not to mention that Dooku had Anakin knocked down several times and could've finished him off if not for Sidious' orders and Kenobi's interference. 3) "He even completely switched his fighting style mid fight just to throw Dooku off" - so did Obi Wan. And this is kind of a plot hole btw, as Dooku was already supposed to know their styles from Tithe.
@@winnietheflu4633Anakin in episode 3 was much stronger than Vader ever was. (in fact, about 2 times stronger, because that's how much flesh Anakin lost after the battle on Mustafar, not to mention metal prostheses, which also did not help). But I wouldn't go as far as calling him "one of the strongest". He was strong, slightly superior to Obi-Wan, but no more. In fact, Yoda talks about it in the movie itself. That Obi-Wan can't beat Palpatine, he's literally out of his league to even try. But he can handle Anakin, which turns out to be true. So Anakin is still much weaker than Yoda, Palpatine or Windu. Anakin had the potential to surpass them, but that potential was never realized thanks to Obi-Wan. Oh, and speaking of books, they're not canon, so it doesn't matter what they say.
What I respect most about Grievous is that he is this terrifying Jedi killer who keeps lightsabers as trophies and does this all without being force sensitive.
3:30 If they included the Palpatine's kindapping into the movie making Grievous into a giant threat, and also showing his injury at the ahnds of Windu. Then the ROTS starting duel it is a 2v2 between Anakin and ObiWan and Douku and Grievous turned into Anakin alone versus them both (or still a 2v2 showing teamwork between Anakin and Obi Wan) That would still make Grievous a giant threat like in the 2003 series, while highlighting how powerful Anakin really was.
Honestly, after losing to Gungans, there is no coming back from Grace. As much as I love 2008 Clone Wars, I wish Grievous got some moments like in the 2003 version
I used to think this way too but you gotta remember, gungans are equipped with tech that is especially effective against droids. And he was taking them on until he was cheap shotted by the best gungan fighter they had. It wasn't really that bad.
The fact that you also undermine the gungans as a capable warrior species is the main point of this video and how the clone wars literally fucked characters left and right.
To be fair, the 2D clone wars explained why he had a cough in Revenge of the Sith, but that was near the end of the actual war. The 3D clone wars showed grievous having a cough long before Mace Windu crushed his windpipe. That part made no sense
I liked how in the Rots he was basically on his deathbed as his chest was crushed by Windu. Then they just made it a side effect of his transformation. And Disney gave it a crown by basically making him an edgy teenager angry at not being accepted to jedi order.
At the ending Clone Wars 2003, as Grievous was kidnapping Palpatine, Mace Windu appeared. And as Grievous prepared to attack, Mace Windu force crushed his ribcage; causing him to retreat. That's why he was coughing in Revenge of the Sith! That's why he was weak!!
For me, 2003 Grevious is my Grevious. He's the one I grew up with, ironically with the movie version, but the cartoon iteration does everything his live action counterpart fails to do. His subtlety, the terrifying presence he maintains every time he's on screen, how tall and imposing he is, his swift, merciless approach to everything, and let's not forget what a hunter he is. He's similar to Dooku to me in the sense that he's very much his own being, having a tonne of his own agency and total respect as a character and as a fighting force, despite ranking lower than other concurrent antagonists. The movie version? He's bumbling, he sounds crochety, he's cowardly and never feels in control, he's constantly wheezing and hunched over, always getting one upped whenever we see him. It's fine that Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't scared of him, these are veterans of the clone war, a Jedi Knight, the chosen one, and a Jedi Master. But we never get a scene in the movies where he's a terror inducing force of nature. An unstoppable machine of evil. The biggest detriment to me is the voice. Admittedly however, I don't like just how OP cartoon Grevious was, although I guess it makes sense with the four arms but that was the only thing what always annoyed me about him. He was almost too good, which I guess, in a way, is me perhaps having my cake and eating it too? And while I actually like the voice of Grevious in the movies in it's own right, it just has nothing on the cold, calculating, sharp tone of the 2003 Grevious, who just feels like every word spoken is as precise and deliberate as his actions are. And I get that all this is explained perfectly in the 2003 show but I still wish he kept a strained version of that voice and had a much, much more imposing and scary nature within the framework he's allowed within ROTS.
Well, though I do agree that they wasted my literal favorite Star Wars character of all time, I will admit. I don't think he's a coward. He knows when he can't win and decides to run to fight another day
@@Doncroft1 No he is not, that's the stupid George Lucas/Dave Filoni version. The 2003 version was not a coward. The Mace Windu force crush would not have changed his personality THAT much. He was still an honourable Kaleesh warrior who wanted deep seated revenge on the Jedi for the massacre they did to his people.
@@asdfoifhvjbkaos 1) Legends Grievous is anything but "honorable" lmao. He's one of the most twisted villains in all of SW. 2) How is that even an argument?
So Grievous was toned down because he was too similar to Vader? What happened to "it's like poetry, it rhymes"? Or y'know, the fact that the galaxy already has a handful of people capable of killing the average Jedi Knight, like the time the Jedi got their shit pushed in by Mandalorians with essentially normal bullet based guns? Or Jango's entire reason for being cloned?
Yeah. Dooku also pretty effortlessly defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan on Geonosis. Yes Anakin was still a Padawan but its still 2v1 and Obi-Wan already killed Darth Maul. No its not like they are 2 random cannon fodder Jedi.
Looking at the finale for 2003 clone wars it makes sense why Grievous was on the run most of the film. Windu literally crushed his lungs which was you know his primary source of living. It’s a miracle he even survived that. Of course he would be weaker he can’t breath properly anymore. It’s less of cowardice and more him seeing the situation and realizing he isn’t fit for combat in his current state
It makes total sense, Tartakovski is a fkng action genius, his stuff makes you drop everything you're doing and observe the art of animation, the power of show don't tell. The show that came after was talk all the time and watch the animation budget.
He's still a badass in CW, while I do agree that he's certainly more cowardly, to quote Starscream; "...sometimes, cowards do survive" If I was in a situation where I know I can't win, I'd much rather run and fight another day than just die lol
Apparently they had to cut off 2 of greivous' hands in episode 3 because it was too hard to choreograph the lightsaber fighting scenes as Ewan McGregor probably had to imagine blocking 2 extra imaginary lightsabers that would be added in by CGI in the final cut
I always thought GL sabotaged Grievous because he wanted a mustache twirling joke of a villain that would appeal to kids, as if kids are unable to appreciate good writing. Just look at Jar Jar. George’s got a great mind but he really knows how to flop in an attempt at placating children.
as a kid who grew up with the prequels but never quite vibed with lucas' attempts at being goofy, I always found 2003 grievous cooler than his later iterations, and to this day I honestly like him as a villain more than vader
I think the 2008 show definitely captures the essence of Revenge of the Sith better than the 2003 show. I agree with Lucas' direction for the character but I totally respect the OG Grevious fans because that depiction was so frightening
Captures the essence of inferiority, yeah. George was so devastated by Clone War's superiority that he gave it the digital abomination treatment, just like he did the Original Trilogy. The little man cannot signal his insecurity harder
General Grievous being similar to Darth Vader would be no problem. I think it’s wise to allow Grievous take the spotlight so we can see how BADASS and terrifying he’s supposed to be.
Movie Grievous: "Mom come pick me up, I'm scared!" Clone Wars Grievous: "Help me! Oh my god!" 2003 Grievous: "THERE WILL BE BLOOD! (BLOOD!) SHED! (SHED!)"
I grew up with the 2003 clone wars, man Grievous was terrifying in that series. He’s one of my favorite Star Wars characters and it’s too bad most people see him as incompetent because of other Star Wars content. Also Shaak Ti was badass in that series too.
He wasn’t a reboot. I mean if anything the Clone Wars tv series and Episode 3 versions are fairly consistent. When the originally made the character for the CN cartoon, they weren’t given any notes on Grevious character. They just knew what he looked like and the concept about him killing other Jedi. They didn’t know he wasn’t meant to be portrayed like that until the movie came out.
@@aspiknf yeah, the mastermind behind the entire franchise sucks 👍🏼 2003 Grievous is of course cooler, but makes no sense and would never be able to appear in the big screens. Grievous is a strategist after all, not a mindless warrior.
I have ranted about the scene where Grievous got his ass kicked by the Gungans. It was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. He shouldve have gone through all of them like a lawnmower
3:34 an easy solution for that, was to keep Grievous the way originally was, making the dirty job of getting the reputation of a brutal Jedi killer (thing we never saw Vader doing during the original trilogy) and so, if Grievous was such powerful, making Anakin killing that brutal machine cyborg instead of Obi-Wan. That would have shown how amazing Anakin/Vader is, killing a predator nobody else could. Like having an OP villain that is so hard nearly impossible to kill, then one hero does it, but turns into a villain, giving the people no hope for killing him because he did what others couldn't But well, that didn't happen, sadly....
What’s annoying is that Filoni is INSISTENT that Grievous is just some wimp serial killer who’s only purpose is to fill the “villain of the week” role. I swear they don’t let him win a single fight in the 3D clone wars show without making him look pathetic in some way shape or form.
Funny, how in the actuall novelization of "Revenge of the Sith" Grievous is actually pretty damn scary, not to methion his fight with Kenobi is waaay more interesting and showing him as a Jedi-killer.
Ignoring already-existing good material to provide your own version that turns out to be shit? Gee, that sounds familiar. Then again, it goes to show that some of SW's problems aren't just from Disney and Filoni but Lucas as well (and some of them start with him).
Love the 2003 CW cartoon. Always thought Gennedy should make a cartoon based in The Old Republic era. Imagine what he could do with Malgus and Valkorion.
Back when they announced that 7 season of Clone Wars will happen, I hoped that Grievous will appear and take part in some story. I dreamed about episodes, that would focus on attack on the Coruscant and kidnapping the Chancellor, where General would finally be some kind of threatening badass, that succeds in job and that would be the ending of the series, where for example he is looking with Dooku at battle in space and preparing for Jedi rescue. Sadly, it never happened and that's why I'm kinda dissapointed with season 7 ending.
I don't think making him in Revenge of the Sith closer to how he is in Clone Wars would've made him too much like Vader. That clip you showed of Vader in the hallway was in Rogue One, which didn't get made until 2016. So Grievous being that kind of unstoppable force would've been different from Vader, because we hadn't seen Vader like that before at that point.
I think Grevious could’ve filled a much more important role in the movies if he was more competent. It is established (in the cartoon scene where Dooku and Grevious are training) that Grevious’s strength lies primarily in his ability to make his opponents confused and afraid. I think it would’ve improved the story if this was explored more, and showed Obi-Wan conquering fear to defeat Grevious. Putting focus on this also would’ve helped provide context to future events in the story, showing how Sideous so quickly defeated multiple jedi masters when they tried to arrest him. It also makes the fact that Sideous could remain undetected by the jedi more plausible, because the paranoia and fear the war caused would’ve clouded their minds and prevented them from discovering him. I also think the emotional impact of the story could’ve been amplified if Grevious provided foreshadowing during the fight with Obi-Wan. He’d hint that Anakin is in grave danger in order to sow paranoia and doubt in Obi-Wan’s mind. However, Obi-Wan would be immediately skeptical of Grevious’s claim. The addition of this exchange to the fight would have demonstrated how confident Obi-Wan is of Anakin, making it all the more heartbreaking when Anakin falls to the dark side.
Privet from Russia! 🇷🇺 I am happy that in the last few years people have been remembering Classic General Grievous more and more often. I don't want to write a long comment (as I usually do), I will limit myself to 4 words about the versions of Grievous from both cartoons: Grievous 2004: unstoppable, unflappable, fast, tactful. Grievous 2008: cowardly, hysterical, slow, tactless.
the reason for this is because in the clone wars (2003) mace force crushed him where is organs were making him alot weaker and tha'ts why in rots you see him coughing so much
"Would be too similar to darth vader" But... Wasn't the whole point of grievous, maul and dooku to BE SIMILAR TO VADER?! Vader is a jedi killer, did dooku or maul kill that many jedi? No, not even remotely Grievous is one of the many things i hated in TCW, and is the best example pf why i hate filoni: he is too childish, in his mind, the good guys loose little and win A LOT, and all villains are dumb idiots, ALL OF THEM.
@@ChildOfTheWilderness vader is the only exception. Thrawn is the "you win this time [insert good guy name here] but i will win next time!!!" kind of villain, the one that gets no real victories but acts as if anything is part of a big plan, i was okay with it when the camouflaged droid was sent back to him, that was a brilliant move on his part, but then he proceeds to loose and let them escape every fucking time. He would've won a lot of time having just used the 20 HEAVY ION CANNONS of his star destroyers to desable the rebel ships and board them to capture its objective, THAT is a thrawn move. Moff gideon and his forces are a joke, dont even mention tjem
@@michelecastellotti9172 i hate how the dark troopers were introduced as chumps and forgotten about how wasted they were just because Luke cut them down. Like wow, these insanely powerful droids were just wiped out like this after being teased as a massive threat throughout. Yet all they did was throw Djin around.
Running away from battle may not just be cowardice but a superior strategy perhaps to regroup or to fight another day, other material showing him fighting jedi and other characters unfairly is in grevious's character he does whatever it takes to achieve victory, he is tenacious and ruthless.
Yeah I agree. George Lucas had the wrong idea for Grievous. Having another scary Jedi killer wouldn’t have taken any spotlight away from Vader. If anything it would’ve given the Clone Wars era it’s own Vader before Vader ever became a thing.
A lot of people are pointing out how the second season of the 2D Clone Wars offers explanations for why Grievous isn't nearly as menacing in RotS, but I feel like the movie tries to imply that this is how Grievous has always been. Mace Windu brushes the threat of him being alive off by saying that he always runs and hides, calling him a coward. That doesn't sound very much like the Grievous who outmanoeuvred and solo'd six Jedi, nor the Grievous who had to be told to flee unwinnable battles by Count Dooku just before getting the plan to kidnap Palpatine.
It would make sense if windu only called grievous a coward cause grievous killed depa billaba, but unfortunately depa billabas death never happened at grievous's hand so the new canon lost another opportunity to make the movies make sense.
I don’t care if he’s not as good he’s still AMAZING. he still is overpowered, I mean even thought TCW got him wrong, I still think he’s OP, we do get shown he’s killed MANY jedi. Grievous is brutal and savage in TCW, and he isn’t exactly weak in ROTS. After all he nearly kills Obi Wan. If fact without obis plot armour he would have. He won by luck. 3 factors that saved obi wan from death: Chest exposed Grievous didn’t throw him hard enough A blaster was there. Grievous many times defeated Obi Wan in TCW, like on the Malevolence and also when he bests Kit Fisto and kills Nadhar Vebb. Grievous also I such a cool design and amazing character, I love how he talks, his laugh are all so cool. And his cape. And his backstory even with the recent altercations. He still is a jedi hunting monster, amazing General, key to the CIS’s power of leadership and is still feared by the galaxy.
I mean, if you can sit through all the really lame, unfunny humor in the show, the really lack luster battles, and the poor quality of the writing overall, you could definitely say he's still "amazing" in the 3d TCW.
I understand why people loved the original, but I personally like the grevious we see in ROTS and the Clone Wars better. He's not too overpowered but still has some brutal moments. The ones mentioned in this video and does anyone remember when he showed up on Dathomir and killed some very powerful witches effortlessly? He also puts up a great against Obi-Wan who is one of the best and well respected jedi in Star Wars. And lastly, if we saw Grevious how he was in this show I think Kenobi would be dead by now.
I honestly don't care how badass Grevious is supposed to be in he 2003 show. He's way overpowered. The man is more OP than fuckin Vader himself. Makes the way he goes out to Obi-Wan in ROTS completely unbelievable. Something being more badass doesn't always mean its better.
@@LegioXXI If Grevious 2008 isn't threatening enough then that's one thing I guess. But this is the other nonsensical extreme. It doesn't really fit with the canon of the films to have him be too OP either.
I believe Tartakovsky mentioned this, when they were given samples of General Grevious all they were given were pictures of him and his name. So Tartakovsky and his team ran with it and made that badass Grevious.
People keep saying that everyone forgets the 2003 version but apparently it is forgotten that Mace Windu crushed his organs in the last battle that leads into revenge of the sith. I can understand George wanting to make it so that Grievous wasn't more intimidating than Vader, but having the tiny bit of living parts in his armor crushed I think is kind of a good explanation why he wouldn't be as deadly later on, and why he would start being more of a coward instead of seeing himself as invincible. It didn't just come out of nowhere and it's getting fairly annoying to hear most of the public's complaints about star wars come mostly from the few parts that actually make sense than the ones who don't.
You are correct, I thank you for acknowledging this fact, however incompetence is not the same as consciousness and being aware of your own abilities, A man with a leg cut off would not so easily attempt walking with both feet
I binged Clone Wars in chronological and RotS with my dad and I made sure to show him the Tartakovsky version first to show him Grievous’s intro as a character
It's too bad alot of 2003 clone wars just gets ignored or forgotten except as meme material. I swear if I hear one more sha gi joke
I completely agree. In my personal headcanon Clone Wars 2003 is canon and TCW isn’t.
Shagi
@@slashtitan1035 I wouldn't go that far, maybe saying that about the Grievous adaptation, but TCW is imo one of the best pieces of Star Wars media ever.
@@Icelandic_Sand Grievous is *far* from being it's only problem.
@@slashtitan1035 sad
I think making him similar to Vader makes Vader an even better character, because he not only becomes what he sought to destroy, but also the reincarnation of someone that had killed so many of his Jedi brethren.
Exactly, in Legends they are even purposefully similiar, Grievous is the Vader of the clone wars, and Anakin intensely hated him.
Shame that the build up they created between Ep 2 and 3 never came to fruition, Anakin vs Grievous would have been an interesting fight if they sticked to his legends character in Ep 3.
I completely agree with you.
Also, the fact that we dont actually get to see Vader kill any jedi in the movies other than his old master who lets Vader kill him and his own son who he doesnt want to kill already takes away from Vader's spotlight.
Vader becomes like someone shorter than he expected
More like Vader is all three reincarnation of all three prequels sub villains Maul,Dooku and grievous.
@@jaieregilmore971 Yes but Grievous stands out the most, making that idea a lot more direct.
I actually think that the 2003 Grievous leads well going into Revenge of the Sith. At the end of the micro series we see that Grievous gets his upper body crushed by Mace Windu. Which not only creates the cough but severely injures him which is why he runs away. On top of that in his training session with Dooku he is told "If you are to succeed in combat against the best of the Jedi, you must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. But if any one element is lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them. Only then will you ensure victory and have your trophy" When confronted by Anakin and Obi-Wan he is not only injured but lacking all three of the things Dooku recommends. He also lacks those on Utupau against Obi-Wan because Kenobi catches Grievous by surprise.
Exactly
Correct you are - yoda propably
You are spot on, it makes sense
Thank you. I always thought that he was actually pretty decent im revenge of the sith
I loved how they made him a threat, but then also were able to find a pretty logical way to nerf him for ROTS.
I always thought the reason grievous was so weak in episode 3 was due to his lung injury in the end of the cartoon series. Having his rib cage crushed should have hopelessly crippled him, and it did.
Thank you
although I don't believe the 2003 series is cannon anymore
@@chadcostello1407 personally when it comes to Star Wars I just say “ fuck it things are so screwed up that I’ll just decide what I think is Canon” It’s worked so far
@@MoreLoreThenThereSeems Me too. In official, even sequels are canon lol
This all comes down to the fact that the power level of the force became too much. In the original trilogy it was something that required immense concentration, and as they up scaled it every fight that wasn’t a force user vs force user made no sense. There is no reason for the Jedi to not just crush or rag doll any enemy that doesn’t use the force because tbeyve been shown time and time again that they could just do that
The only thing I will contest here is that in Revenge of the Sith, I about expected him to be that way. Mace crushed his torso and lungs, and since ROTS takes place IMMEDIATELY after that, it makes sense for him to be coughing and vulnerable. But I WILL concur that the CGI Clone Wars series DID botch the character. Badly.
I agree
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart with all sincerity fucking thank you. You have no idea how many people have Paradoxically ignored these facts, they claim to love the 2003 series well despising them revenge of the Sith version and yet it seems like they didn’t even watch the 2003 series, you are the first person I’ve seen actually making sense and This old old debate has been happening online for years so, thank you
@@MoreLoreThenThereSeems Is there any paradox in that? I think not. Grievous in the ROTS novel and the comic book is the same Grievous that got his lungs crushed by Windu. And yet the way he acts, talks and the way other characters react to him is way different from the movie and is much more in line with what we've seen in CW 2003 and elsewhere. So ROTS Grievous is still a completely different character, even the creators admit as much.
@@ForsakenDreamer7 I have never heard of the creators stating such not saying it didn’t happen by the way and personally I see a through line for the character, they’re pretty similar to me of course they’re Almost one to one to me
@@MoreLoreThenThereSeems The makers of the 2003 show confirmed in the audio commentary that their initial instructions for Grievous as a "ruthless, totally capable Jedi killer" were scrapped in favor of a mustache twirling villain. You can clearly see that movie Grievous is extremely different from his novel and comic counterparts. Movie Grievous laughs like an idiot when he loses his ship and fails his mission. Novel Grievous stays silent and is clearly dissapointed in the same scene.
While I loved the cgi clone wars series and thought it was amazing I have to agree on this point. Grievous was a badass because he was a Jedi hunter that didn't even need the force to take down his foes. The 2003 version emphasized really well how terrifying his character should be.
If anyone is salty about the way he died in the movie, you are welcome to read the 2005 Revenge of the Sith comic book, his fight with Obi Wan is much better there.
Try Revenge of the Sith the game, the fight is fucking epic
@@chronovoid8942 I don't want to speak about my experiences with the fights right before that boss
@@mushedups yeah, I admit the difficulty of this game is a bit extreme(fuck Mace Windu)
The entire book is incredible
@@chronovoid8942 I meant that GOD DAMN CANON
He’s like Lord Zedd from Power Rangers. Both were so badass and terrifying that they had to be watered down.
That man went from emperor of all he saw to family man living in a sitcom in a couple of episodes.
@@fernandosegovia8806 Really? I watched that when I was young, has Lord Zedd been written horribly now?
@@wizbromanakajeffthejoykill7635 Not now, he was toned down literally in the season where he debuted, supposedly because parents at the time thought he was too much for the kids and that he looked like the devil or something (all things considered, it's kind of badass he was deemed so menacing that he had to be reworked). Like, he was still evil but he was nowhere near as serious and ruthless as in his first appearance.
It's not all bad though, they brought Rita back thanks to that and he still got moments to shine, like his battle against the White Ranger.
The character has been treated with much more respect in other media anyway, so it's not like we got the worst possible outcome.
@@fernandosegovia8806 he was literally more successful as a family man than he ever was as the emperor of evil
@@wizbromanakajeffthejoykill7635 did you watch like one episode?
I feel like people are missing the fact that in the 2003 Clone Wars, when Grievous was training with Count Dooku, Dooku *specifically* told Grievous to flee from a fight if he cannot win it. Plus, he was made to be as a placeholder for Darth Vader so that’s why he was so scary and terrifying during his debut. I don’t call that cowardice. He may be a Jedi Killer, but a warrior knows when to back down from a fight.
Yeah. That’s my reasoning for him in TCW.
Yeah but the reboots did that too far they made him essentially look like a b!tch and not the killing machine he was meant to look like and he does follow that strategy when he briefly had a confrontation with Windu in the old show he took heavy damage from Windu so fled. That’s how he should be not this coward he is today
I always thought the big difference between how Greivous and Vader hunted Jedi was that Vader and Grievous both wanted you to know they were coming, but Greivous didn't want you to know when and how, so he could take advantage of your fear and uncertainty and if you were unafraid and certain he would be forced to flee. But with Vader, he wanted you to know how and when he was coming so that you can struggle for him until he eventually crushes you with pure willpower to get his mark so h could het as much enjoyment out of the struggle of killing you as possible. Vader was heavyhanded while Greivous was underhanded
Yes but the canon version could barely kill padawans
Who gives a F lmaooo his character is trash asf anyways and his death was well deserved never been so happy to see a trash characters body drop down to the floor.
Lucas said that this Grievous would've been a Vader copy, but I disagree.
-Where Vader appears like a high ranking warlord, Grievous appears like a brute monster.
-Where Vader's battle stance requires little movement across the battlefield, keeping his opponents on their toes instead, Grievous is the one ambushing and running circles around his prey.
-Where Vader's bionics where added to keep him alive and fix and improve his physique without getting in the way of his lightsaber skill and force abilities, Grievous' bionics are the very source of his alien, almost insectoid fighting style, which more than make up for his lack of force powers.
-Where Vader is clad in all black to stalk in the shadows, embody the dark side and overall seem very elegant, Grievous is clad in all white, always drawing the attention to his unique body and giving the striking image of a grim reaper, especially the mask.
-George claimed he wanted Grievous to be an echo of Vader, and even his old origin would've worked here, their hatred towards the Jedi being fueled by the ones they loved and lost.
Actually, George said he *didn't* want Grievous to be like Vader, and that's specifically why Grievous was ruined later on.
@@spikem5950 That's what I said.
@@MrWhatdafuBOOM "George claimed he wanted Grievous to be an echo of Vader"
Sounds like the opposite claim to me.
@@spikem5950 An echo, as in a foreshadowing, a lead in. Not the same as a copy.
I partially agree.... yes, he appears as a "cheap" villain. But the Samurai Jack cartoon sees him being Force Crushed by master Windu and so is enduring/surviving the rest of the movie.
But yes,also Clone Wars "kiddified" him.
This show yet again picking up the slack of Lucas’s shit writing skills. XD
@@night6724 They are just droids.
The jedi and clones practically do that all the time in any and every piece of media.
Doesn't matter how many storm troopers where thrown at Luke or any jedi, they always curbed stomped them.
At least in the 2003 series the combat looked actually GOOD animation wise.
@@night6724 I'll explain.
1) If we don't count the seismic tank and all the B1 battledroids manning it, aswell as all the B2 battledroids that got crushed when it fell from the sky (which we shouldn't because taking out a massive target like that, or the Death Star, or the Trade Federation station in TPM always racks up a lot of kills) Mace Windu only destroyed at most a few hundred B2 battledroids on Dantooine. He was figthing alongside a huge army of clones before the seismic tank appeared and doing about as effective as one would expect him to do. He only appeared "overpowered" for a few minutes when he was left completely alone and still had to temporarily leave the battlefield and catch a breath. This feat is also described in the Labyrinth of Evil as the staff of legends, not something he can accomplish consistently. All this implies that Windu had nowhere near the power to destroy all the B2 battledroids on Dantooine by himself and only briefly went sicko mode (most likely tapping into Vaapad) to get to the seismic tank and destroy it before it finishes off what's left of the clone army there.
2) In the AOTC novel Dooku states that the Jedi on the arena are up against atleast 100000 battledroids, some of which are B2s or even more dangerous and heavy models. And that doesn't even account for the Geonosians with their blatantly overpowered sound blasters which the Jedi can't counter in any way. Mace couldn't save anyone as he himself was desperate to survive.
3) The same novel also states that reason he jumped into the arena was not the droids but the fact that he realized he stood no chance in fighting Dooku and Jango at the same time.
4) I also have to completely disagree with what you've said about the artstyles of the shows being similar, or the fights in TCW 2008 being good. The only fight in that show which I really think was great was Dooku vs Anakin, Obi Wan and the Pykes. But whatever.
@@night6724 1) Again, if you count the destroyed droids individually, they don't even remotely reach that number.
Of the 100 Jedi on the arena the only ones capable of surviving for some time and contributing anything at all are those that ended up surviving. Which means that in a matter of minutes the odds shifted from 1000 to 1 to several times worse. Just *what* do you expect them to do?
2) Windu has to defeat the amount of droids he can't possibly defeat and once that's done (it won't be) he'll have to throw hands with Dooku. Which, knowing their history, is a near hopeless fight by itself, even with Windu using the full extent of his powers. So it's quite the choice when to tap into Vaapad.
3) Not a single Jedi on that arena is capable of blocking Windu's full powered Force blasts that send entire batalions of B2s flying. They will all be swept off their feet into the storm of blasterfire.
Vader is vastly more powerful than Starkiller's father, here it's the other way around.
4) Just because the creators tried to mimick the 2003 artstyle, doesn't mean they have succeeded.
5) It's explained by the characters like Atton Rand that it's entirely possible for the non Force sensitive beings to mask their thougts and even their presence from the Jedi. Given who GG's master was I'm quite certain he'd be taught these techniques. Which may not even be necessery considering that Grievous is barely a living a being in the first place.
6) Staff like the Labyrinth of Evil has Grievous with his CW 2003 power level, a complex character and an infinitely better backstory than he has in Canon. There's a reason he's mostly referred to as "Legends Grievous" and not just the one part that is "CW 2003 Grievous". So your argument about the lack of development and direction is not quite valid.
7) No amount of kryptonite would save Lex Luther from Superman if the latter cast aside his limiting morals. Grievous is obviously nothing like that and is not going to hold back anything.
Gungans defeating the actual Legends Grievous would not be physically possible. Not only was he shown to resist or completely ignore much stronger electric weapons, but it just can't be done period. They are skilled and determined figthers, but it means nothing in the face of someone like Grievous. The difference in speed and reflexes is just hilarious. An abyss would be an understatement. He has countless evasion feats that make this whole sutuation look like a joke.
@@ForsakenDreamer7 say what you want about the 2003 series but you have to admit a lot characters were uncharacteristically overpowered so nerfing Grevious was necessary unless you wanted another StarKiller situation which isn’t a good idea either.
George clearly didn't know what he wanted. He tells gendy and his team Grevious was a jedi killer, but then also says he's a mustache twirling coward who never wins. He claims he didn't want grievous to be a terrifying jedi killer and steal vaders thunder, but also states the inspiration behind creating grievous was to have a similar character to vader anyway. Man really needed someone holding his hand throughout the process.
Ironically I became a fan of his before even knowing about 2003-2005 Clone Wars ironically, he’s still a jedi killing warrior. He’s still got his strength and abilities and many times uses it. It’s just not enough.
Man I saw the clone wars series as 8-9 year old and saw Grevious kill Jedi like insects. What a disappointment and a nerf he was in RotS
Well if we recognize a pattern here, it’s that the older Grevious got, the weaker he became. Age has really worn him out fast both physically and mentally and we can see this in the ways he is coughing more and more
@@ragemonster4277 This is patently not the case if we look at The Clone Wars (2008) which starts only a few months after the war began. Since that series (which I do love but not for its treatment of Grievous) took over as canon, it means that Grievous was always a weak coward and terrible general who does not in anyway live up the reputation he supposedly has in the Star Wars universe, which is really unfortunate given the potential of the character presented in 2003 Clone Wars and his comic book backstory,
He was turned into a Saturday morning cartoon villain, which is not just my description, that's literally what Lucas said he wanted him to be.
@@hdns4 actually it was reported by Lucas films 2003 clone wars would connect with 2008 clone wars and they would not interfere with the continuity.
Disney has placed 2003 CW in a rather grey area with its cannon but considering it hosts it on Disney+ and there is no other new SW media that replaces it, it’s safe to assume it’s cannon
@@ragemonster4277 You have a source for that? Either way, whatever Lucasfilm may have claimed, 2008 Clone Wars and 2003 Clone Wars simply can not coexist canonically. The two series contradict each other at multiple points, namely with Grievous right from the start not just in how he acts, but with one his most fundamental characteristics, that being his cough. In 2003 Clone Wars, he gets in when Windu crushes his chest while he is capturing the Chancellor, which is almost at the end of the war. In 2008 Clone Wars, he has the cough right from the beginning. There's no sweeping that under the rug.
They continue to contradict each other in little ways, but they do so massively again by changing the circumstances of which Anakin and Obi-Wan find out about the attack on the Coruscant. In 2003, it's after their mission on Nelvaan and it's just the two of them, while in 2008 it's after the Battle of Yerbana and their discussion of the Siege of Mandalore and of course Ahsoka is there. Also that Battle of Nelvaan presents another fairly large contradiction in that Anakin still has his gold hand and gets his black gloved hand after it is destroyed in that battle, while in 2008 Clone Wars he once again has it right from the start. Oh, and none of these things come from Disney either. Two of them happened long before the Disney purchase, and the other was still planned before the Disney purchase (you can look into Dave Filoni's discussion of the unfinished episodes for proof of that).
To say that Clone Wars 2003 is in a canonically grey area is putting it very, very lightly and that has nothing to do with Disney. That's all George Lucas and Dave Filoni. Whatever promise you think Lucasfilm made to "connect" the two series, they abandoned that idea very quickly.
@@hdns4 Well actually 2008 TCW was meant to be a 2003 continuation. Then they did some weird warp around, though. Made it even worse as yes, 2003 WAS canon back in legends stuff. So 2003 is canon to legends, and 2008 to the newer canon. ~~We will not speak of that abysmal decision of trying to shove 2008 into legends~~
I never seen Grievous as a coward. He was always one of my favorite villains, he had 4 arms and a scary voice. I always thought he was an absolute menace to The Jedi society, and his retreats in my eyes were always tactical
Yeah. Clone Wars Grievous gets thrown around a good bit, but here's the thing. He's perpetually going 1v[insert number here] against telekinetic, telepathic, sometimes precognitive space wizards. He is a robot with plasma swords. There's a power gap here. Him getting thrown around every so often is more honest to the lore of the series, even if it makes him mildly less overpowered seeming. And honestly, he doesn't need to feel any more powerful than Dooku. Dooku taught him, not the inverse, and when you mix that with the ability to quad wield, that can be pretty strong, but it doesn't make him any more lethal than Dooku on his own, and I see Dooku as worth about 2 average Jedi, hence why he beat Obi Wan and Anakin each separately during the start of the Clone Wars. Grievous is able to potentially handle up to four Jedi if he gets lucky, and they mess up, but overall, he isn't going to be some unstoppable force against everyone just for kicks.
@@theendersmirk5851 "Dooku as worth about 2 average Jedi" - well this is just plainly wrong.
@@theendersmirk5851 You mean the telekinetic, telepathic, sometimes precognitive space wizards he is *specifically* trained to hunt down and kill?
The ones which he’s only portrayed as doing so in the miniseries and not later media in the slightest?
@@wildfire9280 Yeah. Being trained to hunt something down, and being able to so so to multiple at once, are two different things. He doesn't have their cheats, and realistically, beyond the fact he can scare Jedi every so often, he doesn't even have a real counter to their Force abilities. He can't use it, nor is his armor made of an alloy resistant to being pushed by the force (if one even existed), so all he is is a walking blender. If he can scare a weaker Jedi, he can snag a quick kill or two, but more skilled Jedi, who are less easy to frighten, are more likely to at least survive the encounter. And note, during the animated Clone Wars show, his worst defeat wasn't even to a Jedi, it was to an entire army of Gungans using their weaponry, weapons the rest of the galaxy mostly ignored or wrote off due to being less gun based, and more based on fighting styles we'd consider medieval or earlier. He had the least amount of training against them, and even then he was mostly downed by being cheap shotted due to a gungan sacrificing himself to give the encircling army the element of surprise. Mix that with the fact Ahsoka is by far the least skilled Jedi who we see actually escape Grievous in a 1v1 during the entire series (and she's trained by Anakin, and had to fight in way too many battles in the clone wars to be considered weak). We're not shown his successful hunts, but the thing is, that's not necessarily going to be interesting in all cases. Maybe one or two, but primarily, if a main character, who is set to survive the series, fights him, then you know they'll at least get away, if not outright injure him enough that he has to retreat.
@@theendersmirk5851 Being faster than the force itself is definitely a useful counter to force abilities. It’s also pretty fitting for a creature built for this kind of thing.
I would just like to point out that the padawan who panics and gets crushed by grievous, who looks like shaggy from scooby doo, is literally named Sha'a Gi. The loss of Sha'a Gi from canon is perhaps the greatest loss star wars has seen to date.
Aside from that though, I honestly don't know if I prefer 2003 grievous. He's way more generic. Whenever Tartakovsky saw the Grievous design George brought him he saw a killing machine and George saw a Saturday morning carton villain. But I think that fascinatingly enough reversed it for me in some ways. When I think of this Grievous I think of Shredder or something. 2008 Grievous is by far more of a Saturday morning cartoon character, in both his personality and role within the 2008 series, but that makes the few brutal moments he gets, committing genocide against the night sisters, killing kit fisto's former padawan, mowing down clones and stabbing scrappers in the back, all seem way darker than the kills he got in 2003. Like one moment he's this angry, cynical, sick old man and than all of the sudden he's a death machine responsible for the deaths of millions of civilians and at least like 12 jedi personally. I think it's like those people who find out that the old man who lived on their street and gave out apples on Halloween was a cereal killer. Also, it's probably just me, but I find an angry coward with a few strokes of genius way more entertaining than what is essentially just a standard villain architype. No judging though, I think both grievous' are cool in their own ways. It would have been hard to make grievous competent on screen during 2008 clone wars considering almost no one can die, but I defiantly wish we got to see him in action more than we did. It would have helped justify his position. With the 2003 one, you get why Dooku and Sidious trust him to kidnap the chancellor.
2nd top comment is very angry with you right now
so you just think that bland “I’ll get you next time!” villains are good?
Grevious learned how to counter a Jedi's attack pattern just by fighting them once, and learned so quickly that fighting him more than once was basically suicide, as he could almost predict your moves before they happen. This is why Mace Windu refused to fight him. He feared that if grevious survived the encounter, he would be unstoppable. Obi wan fought him several times in the clone wars, meaning that once they fought in ROTS, grevious should've won within less than a minute
That was a legends thing... Which no matter how Lucasfilm says it, is not featuring 2008 TCW.
@@somethingwithultra7231 Given that TCW is trash, I'm not surprised. Also it wasn't legends, it was stuff that was worked on in tandem with George Lucas, much like Tartakovsky's 2003 cartoon. It only became legends after the house of mouse got its greedy rodent fingers on Starwars, and retconned half of everything.
use force
crush brain
not hard
@@christianstamm94 wow
grass
One of the major parts of grievous that annoys me is the fact he got a cooler looking design that was shown in season 7 of the clone wars in an opening to an episode, but we never saw anything involving grievous with this new design
They could’ve kept 2003 Grievous and it would actually still serve George’s vision, as not only Grievous would foreshadow Vader’s physical transformation, but also foreshadow being an even more effective and dangerous Jedi killer. Legends Grievous was the Terminator to Jedi, and would be a good precursor to Canon Vader, as Vader is seen as almost death itself to Jedi, a literal boogeyman. A symbol of pure terror. Not a simple Jedi killing machine like Grievous was, but far worse. As Vader has what Grievous doesn’t, the Force, and has one of the strongest powers over it. Both also have very different and distinctive styles of killing Jedi. So “nerfing” Grievous wasn’t really necessary.
Vader was heavyhanded as in he wanted you to know how and when he was coming for you, he enjoyed the struggle of killing you and didn't need to rely on surprise and intimidation like Grievous did. Grievous was underhanded, he wanted you to know he was coming like Vader, but he didn't want you to know when or how so he can throw you off balance and take advantage of your fear and uncertainty, if they're unafraid he *has* to run, Vader doesn't.
@@williamkensington2772 i think even without the fear he is still a jedi killer but they had nerf my boy or he would have killed obi wan
@@no-ro6by yeah I think that too but just on Jedi who aren't masters or very strong knights. Dooku even tells him that fear surprise and intimidation are Greivous' greatest weapon and tells him that if one of those elements is missing he should flee. But 2003 cw isnt canon anymore so that conversation never happened
@@no-ro6by nah without the fear Grievous pretty much will get one shotted by any concentrated force ability as seen with Mace, who is just completely unflappable.
@@LucyWest370 well mace is a special case cause he’s as strong as yoda normally he would be able to destroy any jedi in a duel but i see what you mean i mean it’s just hard to say cause we haven’t seen him in his prime without the aspect of fear
Grievous' characterization in Revenge of the Sith made sense. He himself had every reason to believe he was an invincible killing machine, only to get his lungs nearly crushed at the last second as he was completing his mission.
I know I'd be way more paranoid and cautious than ever before for at least a week after that, if that were me. Him getting his hands cut off so quickly by Obi-Wan was actually because of Kenobi's lightsaber style as well. Grievous hadn't fought a master of the defensive form before then, though that wasn't stated in the movie.
He was definitely ruined in 2008 Clone Wars though, no argument there.
George Lucas: “it’s like poetry, Sorta, It rhymes”
Also George: “we can’t have Vader, A vicious cybernetic Jedi killer mirror Geievous, Another vicious cybernetic Jedi killer, That’s stupid!”
*also we can't show Vader kill a single Jedi onscreen and we'll just let the clones do it instead*
@@mercury2157 He killt a former Jedi: Count Dooku. That has to count for something
@@TheSundayShooter definitely doesn't count toward "betrayed and murdered the jedi"
@@mercury2157 let's not forget adding all the inquisitors who do most of the work now too.
@@skaionex I hate everything about the Inquisitors' existence and this is the core of why. it's also so fucking cheap how the Grand Inquisitor is apparently the one who killed the Temple Guards now, because all it really does is serve to dampen Vader's legacy as the supposed greatest Jedi killer
The idea that Grievous became weaker after Mace Windu crushed his chest during the kidnapping of Chancellor Palpatine was such a good idea. It’s too bad they didn’t carry that through in TCW.
That's because Mace crushing his chest happened RIGHT BEFORE the start of the third movie
Which makes his hacking throughout the CG show all the more ridiculous
@@jeremyallen5974 the 2003 special that provided that information was retconned by George, it’s not part of George Lucas canon, it’s technically part of the EU. That’s what my comment was getting at, it’s a shame they didn’t carry that idea through to the Clone Wars, or at least make it so getting his chest crushed explains why he’s so weak at the beginning of ROTS compared to his later appearance in the movie, as well as his appearances in TCW.
@@Mr_Mcgee_ it's hilarious you call US morons when it wasn't until the battle of Coruscant that Grievous got his chest crushed...
@@jeremyallen5974 what…? I didn’t call anyone a moron? What are you talking about?
What you’re referring to is from the 2003 clone wars series, which is part of the EU, not George Lucas (official) canon. I already explained that above. The Clone Wars (the CG show) is part of George Lucas canon, “Clone Wars” (the 2003 series) is part of the EU. The EU has no baring on George Lucas canon, as it wasn’t created by him.
Either you didn’t read my comment, or you’re mistaking me with someone else- because I’ve addressed everything you said. Cheers
If you have to completely throw away and belittle one character's story and capabilities just in order to make your figurehead character not lose any merit, maybe reevaluate how you can give that figurehead more merit in the first place
Disney Trilogy suffers from the exact thing
@@TheSundayShooter What do you mean by that?
It's one of the things that I can never truly forgive The Clone Wars for. It would have been one thing if they kept him in line with ROTS but instead they tripled down on him being a joke. He kills 1 single Jedi through the entire show, that being Nahdar Vebb and he doesn't even do it with his lightsabers, instead shooting him with a blaster during a saber lock.
I get that they didn't want to integrate 2003/legends Grievous into the early seasons because it was very much a kids show and having Grievous tearing through Jedi like butter may not have suited the demographic. But even in later, darker seasons he's a complete joke, if anything he's worse because he gets taken down by a bunch of Gungans.
tcw alwayz sucked
I'm fine with the ROTS Grievous because the 2003 Clone Wars explained why he became weak so suddenly. But man, Filoni's 2008 Grievous was like Worf times a million.
One wanted a horror movie monster.
One wanted a mustache twirling doom of the day style serial villain.
Every
No
Probably the worst thing to learn is how the only reason Grievous was Retconned into someone so useless one would be puzzled as to why he is in any position of authority is cause Lucas thought DARTH FUCKING VADER, litteraly one of the most widely known characters in fiction, wouldn't be able to stand his ground against a competent grievous in terms of popularity. Goddammit Lucas, vader was and still is awesome, let us see what he'd be like if he had the speed of a xenomorph and no force powers.
In the revenge of the Sith novelization and even the comics they balance out the coward and the death machine to a character that’s pretty cool
you have no idea how happy it makes me to know there is someone else who acknowledges this
I agree, The senate decided to keep the clone war going because general grievous was still alive after the death of dooku. But considering the fact all he did was run and hide I think that Griveous being a huge threat to the Jedi would have made more sense, That grievous sounds like they would use the end of the war to their advantage, destroying planets of the allies for the republic so that if the clone wars continued they would have the advantage, instead we got a comic relief toy…
Grievous was always meant to be the scapegoat novellization wise.
Why refer to Grivious as they?
@@mrj4082 I always get pronouns wrong and mixed up so i just try to refer as pretty much everything as "They"
@@Spyciality He's clearly a dude tho. Unless English isn't your first language?
@@bable6314 English is my first language, But as i said i sometimes say the wrong pronouns so i just find it easier to refer to things as they/them, Would you rather me get your pronouns wrong on accident or just refer to you as "they/them"?
When you create a Jedi killing “Machine” so efficient! That the creator of star wars gets scared that his monster might get over shadowed by it shows a lot. Someone’s gotta put George on a leash next time before he dooms another movie villain
Agreed. George killed off Boba and he killed off Maul because he didn't want them over shadow his original heros and villains. He should have not allowed those villains to be written so well or better yet just embrace the love the fans had for those new creations.
@@kailenmitchell8571 Maul was just never meant to go further though... He had a bit of character but was largely meant to be one off.
@@kailenmitchell8571 "break cannon or make bad characters"
Genndy Tartokofsky is the reason why General Grievous of 2003 is my Favorite Bad Guy.
To be fair, a huge trope in Star Wars is to establish a badass looking villain and discard them or what makes them cool immediately. At least in the movies.
Grievous loses two of his four arms right away in his big fight with Obi Wan. Captain Phasma gets taken hostage and thrown in the trash before falling into a pit. Boba Fett gets smacked by a blind man and is eaten by a sand hole. Jango's jetpack also gets damaged before he loses his head. And to a lesser extent, Maul gets his unique lightsaber cut in half during a 1v1
dooku dispatches the two main protagonists in his old age and still maintains a fight with the jedi grandmaster only to be amputated and decapitated within the first 20 minutes of the next movie
The sad thing, its not just Grievous, but the CIS as a whole who got diminished to a comic-relief in 2008 TCW.
Like they pretend as if the Geonosis incident of Episode 2 never happened, where hundreds of Jedi get mauled down by regular battle droids, yet alone how Count Dooku basically trolled Obi-Wan and Anakin in a 2v1.
This was the last time were CIS characters and military units actually were imposing and threatening, at least towards Republic & Jedi.
Despite the fact that Clone Wars (CGI) didn't show the badass that he was, I still love him in it all the same, in fact, it's where my love for the character originated and its one I still have to this day
Bro If he dies, whole army of droids dies, he must escape..
That’s facts. Clone wars 2008 had few flaws but Grievous being a weak coward and Count Dooku being a 2d villain were two major flaws. Also Anakin fighting Dooku every ten episodes taking away from their final duel in revenge of the Sith. To counter this in episodes where Anakin fought Dooku he could just fight one of Dooku’s Dark Acolytes
I disagree. In the book it describes how dooku previously fought Anakin and how in a very short period of time Anakin had completely surpassed dooku. I think it fits his character and how much raw power and skill he had
@@winnietheflu4633 Which is complete nonsense as it originally took Anakin 3 years to get to the level where he can barely beat Dooku with Obi Wan's help. In a fight that was completely rigged in his favor by Sidious. Anakin never surpassed Legends Dooku.
@@ForsakenDreamer7 in my opinion that’s 100% not true. Definitely not what’s implied by the story. Anakin during ROTS was pretty much the single most powerful being in the galaxy. His raw skill and talent alone with his experience gained from the clone wars is insane. Obiwan was knocked out of the fight pretty quick and anakin mopped the floor with dooku. He even completely switched his fighting style mid fight just to throw dooku off.
@@winnietheflu4633 1) "Anakin during ROTS was pretty much the single most powerful being in the galaxy" - while that is the case, he was certainly not the best fighter in the galaxy and used his power like a toddler would use a machine gun. The incident on Tithe is the obvious proof of that.
2) "Obi Wan was knocked out of the fight pretty quick" - not in the novel, he wasn't. If anything, Dooku seems more scared of him than Anakin in the first half of the fight. Not to mention that Dooku had Anakin knocked down several times and could've finished him off if not for Sidious' orders and Kenobi's interference.
3) "He even completely switched his fighting style mid fight just to throw Dooku off" - so did Obi Wan. And this is kind of a plot hole btw, as Dooku was already supposed to know their styles from Tithe.
@@winnietheflu4633Anakin in episode 3 was much stronger than Vader ever was. (in fact, about 2 times stronger, because that's how much flesh Anakin lost after the battle on Mustafar, not to mention metal prostheses, which also did not help). But I wouldn't go as far as calling him "one of the strongest". He was strong, slightly superior to Obi-Wan, but no more. In fact, Yoda talks about it in the movie itself. That Obi-Wan can't beat Palpatine, he's literally out of his league to even try. But he can handle Anakin, which turns out to be true. So Anakin is still much weaker than Yoda, Palpatine or Windu. Anakin had the potential to surpass them, but that potential was never realized thanks to Obi-Wan.
Oh, and speaking of books, they're not canon, so it doesn't matter what they say.
Just saying the bad batch version of grievous looked terrifying so sad that we didn’t see him much at all
how can u say he looked terrifying when he didnt do anything or even speak in seasons 6 and 7?
What I respect most about Grievous is that he is this terrifying Jedi killer who keeps lightsabers as trophies and does this all without being force sensitive.
3:30
If they included the Palpatine's kindapping into the movie making Grievous into a giant threat, and also showing his injury at the ahnds of Windu.
Then the ROTS starting duel it is a 2v2 between Anakin and ObiWan and Douku and Grievous turned into Anakin alone versus them both (or still a 2v2 showing teamwork between Anakin and Obi Wan)
That would still make Grievous a giant threat like in the 2003 series, while highlighting how powerful Anakin really was.
Honestly, after losing to Gungans, there is no coming back from Grace. As much as I love 2008 Clone Wars, I wish Grievous got some moments like in the 2003 version
I used to think this way too but you gotta remember, gungans are equipped with tech that is especially effective against droids. And he was taking them on until he was cheap shotted by the best gungan fighter they had. It wasn't really that bad.
The fact that you also undermine the gungans as a capable warrior species is the main point of this video and how the clone wars literally fucked characters left and right.
To be fair, the 2D clone wars explained why he had a cough in Revenge of the Sith, but that was near the end of the actual war. The 3D clone wars showed grievous having a cough long before Mace Windu crushed his windpipe. That part made no sense
I liked how in the Rots he was basically on his deathbed as his chest was crushed by Windu.
Then they just made it a side effect of his transformation. And Disney gave it a crown by basically making him an edgy teenager angry at not being accepted to jedi order.
At the ending Clone Wars 2003, as Grievous was kidnapping Palpatine, Mace Windu appeared. And as Grievous prepared to attack, Mace Windu force crushed his ribcage; causing him to retreat. That's why he was coughing in Revenge of the Sith! That's why he was weak!!
To be fair, everyone gets tricked by Jar Jar.
you mean DARTH JAR JAR? our supreme ruler?
@@sergeantsharkseant Wow, how original.
@@thecatfather857 yes
I don’t care if he’s weaker now in canon, I still love him. He’s one of my favorite characters
For me, 2003 Grevious is my Grevious. He's the one I grew up with, ironically with the movie version, but the cartoon iteration does everything his live action counterpart fails to do. His subtlety, the terrifying presence he maintains every time he's on screen, how tall and imposing he is, his swift, merciless approach to everything, and let's not forget what a hunter he is. He's similar to Dooku to me in the sense that he's very much his own being, having a tonne of his own agency and total respect as a character and as a fighting force, despite ranking lower than other concurrent antagonists. The movie version? He's bumbling, he sounds crochety, he's cowardly and never feels in control, he's constantly wheezing and hunched over, always getting one upped whenever we see him. It's fine that Anakin and Obi-Wan aren't scared of him, these are veterans of the clone war, a Jedi Knight, the chosen one, and a Jedi Master. But we never get a scene in the movies where he's a terror inducing force of nature. An unstoppable machine of evil. The biggest detriment to me is the voice. Admittedly however, I don't like just how OP cartoon Grevious was, although I guess it makes sense with the four arms but that was the only thing what always annoyed me about him. He was almost too good, which I guess, in a way, is me perhaps having my cake and eating it too? And while I actually like the voice of Grevious in the movies in it's own right, it just has nothing on the cold, calculating, sharp tone of the 2003 Grevious, who just feels like every word spoken is as precise and deliberate as his actions are. And I get that all this is explained perfectly in the 2003 show but I still wish he kept a strained version of that voice and had a much, much more imposing and scary nature within the framework he's allowed within ROTS.
Clone wars 2003 kinda overpowers everyone
I'm sad that that Palpatine didn't get to fight in that show, It would have been awesome
Yet even the heavily nerfed Grievous is still more capable then any character in the 'New Trilogy', or hell anything made by disney nowadays.
Well, though I do agree that they wasted my literal favorite Star Wars character of all time, I will admit. I don't think he's a coward. He knows when he can't win and decides to run to fight another day
He's selfish and pragmatic, petty and cocky, dirty and unfair. Very opposite of the Jedi. And in my opinion, that works quite well.
Like against a padawan lmao
@@Doncroft1 No he is not, that's the stupid George Lucas/Dave Filoni version. The 2003 version was not a coward. The Mace Windu force crush would not have changed his personality THAT much. He was still an honourable Kaleesh warrior who wanted deep seated revenge on the Jedi for the massacre they did to his people.
@@aspiknf i don't think a story is better just for being more badass. grevious as an "honorable jedi-hunting warrior" just sounds shallow and boring
@@asdfoifhvjbkaos 1) Legends Grievous is anything but "honorable" lmao. He's one of the most twisted villains in all of SW.
2) How is that even an argument?
His fight with the ARC troopers is why I love the LAAT
So Grievous was toned down because he was too similar to Vader? What happened to "it's like poetry, it rhymes"? Or y'know, the fact that the galaxy already has a handful of people capable of killing the average Jedi Knight, like the time the Jedi got their shit pushed in by Mandalorians with essentially normal bullet based guns? Or Jango's entire reason for being cloned?
Yeah. Dooku also pretty effortlessly defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan on Geonosis. Yes Anakin was still a Padawan but its still 2v1 and Obi-Wan already killed Darth Maul. No its not like they are 2 random cannon fodder Jedi.
Looking at the finale for 2003 clone wars it makes sense why Grievous was on the run most of the film. Windu literally crushed his lungs which was you know his primary source of living. It’s a miracle he even survived that. Of course he would be weaker he can’t breath properly anymore. It’s less of cowardice and more him seeing the situation and realizing he isn’t fit for combat in his current state
It makes total sense, Tartakovski is a fkng action genius, his stuff makes you drop everything you're doing and observe the art of animation, the power of show don't tell.
The show that came after was talk all the time and watch the animation budget.
I feel like Grievous could have been the perfect mirror to Anakin to show how slowly but surely Anakin is becoming Vader
He's still a badass in CW, while I do agree that he's certainly more cowardly, to quote Starscream;
"...sometimes, cowards do survive"
If I was in a situation where I know I can't win, I'd much rather run and fight another day than just die lol
“George thought Genndy Tartakovsky’s Grievous would be too similar to Darth Vader”
BITCH THAT’S THE POINT
Apparently they had to cut off 2 of greivous' hands in episode 3 because it was too hard to choreograph the lightsaber fighting scenes as Ewan McGregor probably had to imagine blocking 2 extra imaginary lightsabers that would be added in by CGI in the final cut
Yeah In the ROTS book he was striking at like 40 times a second or something like that
2:26 as a Grievous fan, man it hurts seeing Grievous like that on the ground😭
I always thought GL sabotaged Grievous because he wanted a mustache twirling joke of a villain that would appeal to kids, as if kids are unable to appreciate good writing.
Just look at Jar Jar. George’s got a great mind but he really knows how to flop in an attempt at placating children.
as a kid who grew up with the prequels but never quite vibed with lucas' attempts at being goofy, I always found 2003 grievous cooler than his later iterations, and to this day I honestly like him as a villain more than vader
It could've been that grievous was that killing machine and they could've as an example make Anakin kill him to show that he is now the stronger guy
It's because mace windu crushed his lung making him weaker and he was scared to fight Jedi after that encounter.
I will never forgive Filoni for butchering Grievous. Its also entirely possible that Kenobi never encountered Grievous till episode 3
I think the 2008 show definitely captures the essence of Revenge of the Sith better than the 2003 show. I agree with Lucas' direction for the character but I totally respect the OG Grevious fans because that depiction was so frightening
Captures the essence of inferiority, yeah. George was so devastated by Clone War's superiority that he gave it the digital abomination treatment, just like he did the Original Trilogy. The little man cannot signal his insecurity harder
@@TheSundayShooter Cope.
General Grievous - Clone Wars 2003 is so fucking goated! Its crazy how fucking terrifying he is!!! 😍
Your video quality is awesome you deserve many more subs
Thank you so much :)
General Grievous being similar to Darth Vader would be no problem. I think it’s wise to allow Grievous take the spotlight so we can see how BADASS and terrifying he’s supposed to be.
Movie Grievous: "Mom come pick me up, I'm scared!"
Clone Wars Grievous: "Help me! Oh my god!"
2003 Grievous: "THERE WILL BE BLOOD! (BLOOD!) SHED! (SHED!)"
THE MAN IN THE MIRROR NODS HIS HEAD
HE ONLY WANTS! DEATH!
@@ForsakenDreamer7 THE ONLY ONE LEFT WILL RIDE UPON THE DRAGON'S BACK
Mace Windu says hi.
I grew up with the 2003 clone wars, man Grievous was terrifying in that series. He’s one of my favorite Star Wars characters and it’s too bad most people see him as incompetent because of other Star Wars content. Also Shaak Ti was badass in that series too.
Most of his triumphs happened off-screen. I mean, just look at his trophy room.
He wasn’t a reboot. I mean if anything the Clone Wars tv series and Episode 3 versions are fairly consistent. When the originally made the character for the CN cartoon, they weren’t given any notes on Grevious character. They just knew what he looked like and the concept about him killing other Jedi. They didn’t know he wasn’t meant to be portrayed like that until the movie came out.
He isn't coward, he is wise; that's totally different. It wouldn't be plausible to have him being so OP, he isn't Durge.
Wait isn't durge known for di- oh wait wrong Franchise
Griveous beat Durge in the comics. Also, it is plausible to have Griveous as OP, George Lucas sucks. 2003 Clone Wars is better.
@@aspiknf yeah, the mastermind behind the entire franchise sucks 👍🏼 2003 Grievous is of course cooler, but makes no sense and would never be able to appear in the big screens. Grievous is a strategist after all, not a mindless warrior.
I have ranted about the scene where Grievous got his ass kicked by the Gungans. It was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. He shouldve have gone through all of them like a lawnmower
3:34 an easy solution for that, was to keep Grievous the way originally was, making the dirty job of getting the reputation of a brutal Jedi killer (thing we never saw Vader doing during the original trilogy) and so, if Grievous was such powerful, making Anakin killing that brutal machine cyborg instead of Obi-Wan.
That would have shown how amazing Anakin/Vader is, killing a predator nobody else could. Like having an OP villain that is so hard nearly impossible to kill, then one hero does it, but turns into a villain, giving the people no hope for killing him because he did what others couldn't
But well, that didn't happen, sadly....
What’s annoying is that Filoni is INSISTENT that Grievous is just some wimp serial killer who’s only purpose is to fill the “villain of the week” role. I swear they don’t let him win a single fight in the 3D clone wars show without making him look pathetic in some way shape or form.
Funny, how in the actuall novelization of "Revenge of the Sith" Grievous is actually pretty damn scary, not to methion his fight with Kenobi is waaay more interesting and showing him as a Jedi-killer.
Reboot grievous hit more of his owns droids than actual enemies
Ignoring already-existing good material to provide your own version that turns out to be shit? Gee, that sounds familiar. Then again, it goes to show that some of SW's problems aren't just from Disney and Filoni but Lucas as well (and some of them start with him).
Love the 2003 CW cartoon. Always thought Gennedy should make a cartoon based in The Old Republic era. Imagine what he could do with Malgus and Valkorion.
Back when they announced that 7 season of Clone Wars will happen, I hoped that Grievous will appear and take part in some story. I dreamed about episodes, that would focus on attack on the Coruscant and kidnapping the Chancellor, where General would finally be some kind of threatening badass, that succeds in job and that would be the ending of the series, where for example he is looking with Dooku at battle in space and preparing for Jedi rescue. Sadly, it never happened and that's why I'm kinda dissapointed with season 7 ending.
I don't think making him in Revenge of the Sith closer to how he is in Clone Wars would've made him too much like Vader. That clip you showed of Vader in the hallway was in Rogue One, which didn't get made until 2016. So Grievous being that kind of unstoppable force would've been different from Vader, because we hadn't seen Vader like that before at that point.
I am extremely annoyed that they would do this, he had so much damn potential, but they just ruined him, I’m so damn mad
I think Grevious could’ve filled a much more important role in the movies if he was more competent.
It is established (in the cartoon scene where Dooku and Grevious are training) that Grevious’s strength lies primarily in his ability to make his opponents confused and afraid. I think it would’ve improved the story if this was explored more, and showed Obi-Wan conquering fear to defeat Grevious. Putting focus on this also would’ve helped provide context to future events in the story, showing how Sideous so quickly defeated multiple jedi masters when they tried to arrest him. It also makes the fact that Sideous could remain undetected by the jedi more plausible, because the paranoia and fear the war caused would’ve clouded their minds and prevented them from discovering him.
I also think the emotional impact of the story could’ve been amplified if Grevious provided foreshadowing during the fight with Obi-Wan. He’d hint that Anakin is in grave danger in order to sow paranoia and doubt in Obi-Wan’s mind. However, Obi-Wan would be immediately skeptical of Grevious’s claim. The addition of this exchange to the fight would have demonstrated how confident Obi-Wan is of Anakin, making it all the more heartbreaking when Anakin falls to the dark side.
Just going to point out. Tartavosky didnt invent grevious. Lucas did
I never got the impresson he's a coward. he simply knows when to retreat
Privet from Russia! 🇷🇺
I am happy that in the last few years people have been remembering Classic General Grievous more and more often. I don't want to write a long comment (as I usually do), I will limit myself to 4 words about the versions of Grievous from both cartoons:
Grievous 2004: unstoppable, unflappable, fast, tactful.
Grievous 2008: cowardly, hysterical, slow, tactless.
the reason for this is because in the clone wars (2003) mace force crushed him where is organs were making him alot weaker and tha'ts why in rots you see him coughing so much
Not canon anymore, suck it
"Would be too similar to darth vader"
But... Wasn't the whole point of grievous, maul and dooku to BE SIMILAR TO VADER?!
Vader is a jedi killer, did dooku or maul kill that many jedi? No, not even remotely
Grievous is one of the many things i hated in TCW, and is the best example pf why i hate filoni: he is too childish, in his mind, the good guys loose little and win A LOT, and all villains are dumb idiots, ALL OF THEM.
This right here ^
💯. |
The only good part of filoni is because of him my boy plo koon got a character
Vader isn't dumb in Rebels
Neither is Thrawn
Is Moff Gideon dumb?
@@ChildOfTheWilderness vader is the only exception.
Thrawn is the "you win this time [insert good guy name here] but i will win next time!!!" kind of villain, the one that gets no real victories but acts as if anything is part of a big plan, i was okay with it when the camouflaged droid was sent back to him, that was a brilliant move on his part, but then he proceeds to loose and let them escape every fucking time. He would've won a lot of time having just used the 20 HEAVY ION CANNONS of his star destroyers to desable the rebel ships and board them to capture its objective, THAT is a thrawn move.
Moff gideon and his forces are a joke, dont even mention tjem
@@michelecastellotti9172 i hate how the dark troopers were introduced as chumps and forgotten about how wasted they were just because Luke cut them down. Like wow, these insanely powerful droids were just wiped out like this after being teased as a massive threat throughout. Yet all they did was throw Djin around.
Running away from battle may not just be cowardice but a superior strategy perhaps to regroup or to fight another day, other material showing him fighting jedi and other characters unfairly is in grevious's character he does whatever it takes to achieve victory, he is tenacious and ruthless.
Yeah I agree. George Lucas had the wrong idea for Grievous. Having another scary Jedi killer wouldn’t have taken any spotlight away from Vader. If anything it would’ve given the Clone Wars era it’s own Vader before Vader ever became a thing.
Disagree
A lot of people are pointing out how the second season of the 2D Clone Wars offers explanations for why Grievous isn't nearly as menacing in RotS, but I feel like the movie tries to imply that this is how Grievous has always been. Mace Windu brushes the threat of him being alive off by saying that he always runs and hides, calling him a coward. That doesn't sound very much like the Grievous who outmanoeuvred and solo'd six Jedi, nor the Grievous who had to be told to flee unwinnable battles by Count Dooku just before getting the plan to kidnap Palpatine.
It would make sense if windu only called grievous a coward cause grievous killed depa billaba, but unfortunately depa billabas death never happened at grievous's hand so the new canon lost another opportunity to make the movies make sense.
I don’t care if he’s not as good he’s still AMAZING. he still is overpowered, I mean even thought TCW got him wrong, I still think he’s OP, we do get shown he’s killed MANY jedi. Grievous is brutal and savage in TCW, and he isn’t exactly weak in ROTS. After all he nearly kills Obi Wan. If fact without obis plot armour he would have. He won by luck. 3 factors that saved obi wan from death:
Chest exposed
Grievous didn’t throw him hard enough
A blaster was there.
Grievous many times defeated Obi Wan in TCW, like on the Malevolence and also when he bests Kit Fisto and kills Nadhar Vebb.
Grievous also I such a cool design and amazing character, I love how he talks, his laugh are all so cool. And his cape. And his backstory even with the recent altercations. He still is a jedi hunting monster, amazing General, key to the CIS’s power of leadership and is still feared by the galaxy.
I mean, if you can sit through all the really lame, unfunny humor in the show, the really lack luster battles, and the poor quality of the writing overall, you could definitely say he's still "amazing" in the 3d TCW.
I understand why people loved the original, but I personally like the grevious we see in ROTS and the Clone Wars better. He's not too overpowered but still has some brutal moments. The ones mentioned in this video and does anyone remember when he showed up on Dathomir and killed some very powerful witches effortlessly? He also puts up a great against Obi-Wan who is one of the best and well respected jedi in Star Wars. And lastly, if we saw Grevious how he was in this show I think Kenobi would be dead by now.
I honestly don't care how badass Grevious is supposed to be in he 2003 show. He's way overpowered. The man is more OP than fuckin Vader himself. Makes the way he goes out to Obi-Wan in ROTS completely unbelievable. Something being more badass doesn't always mean its better.
Its not about being badass, its about being an actual, galactic scale threat - which 2008 Grievous simply is not.
@@LegioXXI If Grevious 2008 isn't threatening enough then that's one thing I guess. But this is the other nonsensical extreme. It doesn't really fit with the canon of the films to have him be too OP either.
People can praise TCW all they want but I’ll always firmly stand by the fact that I absolutely hate what the series did with Dooku and Grievous
Yeah but u gotta remember mace windu basically broke his lung's so if mace windu didn't brake his lungs he'd still be a threat
Thank you
@@MoreLoreThenThereSeems anytime cat mab
I believe Tartakovsky mentioned this, when they were given samples of General Grevious all they were given were pictures of him and his name. So Tartakovsky and his team ran with it and made that badass Grevious.
People keep saying that everyone forgets the 2003 version but apparently it is forgotten that Mace Windu crushed his organs in the last battle that leads into revenge of the sith. I can understand George wanting to make it so that Grievous wasn't more intimidating than Vader, but having the tiny bit of living parts in his armor crushed I think is kind of a good explanation why he wouldn't be as deadly later on, and why he would start being more of a coward instead of seeing himself as invincible. It didn't just come out of nowhere and it's getting fairly annoying to hear most of the public's complaints about star wars come mostly from the few parts that actually make sense than the ones who don't.
Palpatine and Anakin didn't get become cowardly after tremendous injuries, your argument is invalid
I thought episode 3's grievous' incompetence was explained by mace windu crushing his lungs at the very end of the 2003 animated series......
You are correct, I thank you for acknowledging this fact, however incompetence is not the same as consciousness and being aware of your own abilities, A man with a leg cut off would not so easily attempt walking with both feet
This video is literally my exact points for why I think they ruined grevious’ character.
I binged Clone Wars in chronological and RotS with my dad and I made sure to show him the Tartakovsky version first to show him Grievous’s intro as a character