The idea that the Adagio movement is a tribute to Mozart is speculative conjecture at best; I believe the spirit and mood of the movement is a grateful nod to his English hosts, evident by the subtlest hints of God Save the King heard at the outset.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 it quotes several Mozart works including the Agnus Dei from his Coronation Mass and the slow movement of the Jupiter Symphony along with God Save the King. This is Haydn’s true response to the death of his greatest and most passionate fan, Mozart.
@@loganfruchtman953 As I said, it’s all speculative conjecture; additionally, over his entire career, Haydn hardly ever quotes other composers, and off the top of my head, he plays around with Gluck’s ‘Che farò senza Euridice’ in one of the early baryton trios, and directly quotes the falling motif from the slow movement of Mozart Symphony 40 in The Seasons - and that’s about it over a career spanning about 55 years.
Thank you for sharing. I love Haydn and this symphony is a favorite. The slow movement is supposedly Haydn's reaction to hearing of Mozart's death. Very beautiful and heartfelt.
@@beethovenlovedmozart Still not sure that 11:50 isn’t just an example of two contemporary composers of the highest stature - who knew each other extraordinarily well - using a shared common musical language rather than one referencing another; one composer occasionally being reminiscent of another inevitably occurs from time to time. Perhaps it is a sort of paraphrase of Mozart - it’s difficult today to know what was in Haydn’s mind. This Mozart/Haydn link - the speculative conjecture of the movement being Haydn’s tribute to his dead friend - now associated with the slow movement in Haydn 98 originated I think from Tovey, but was turbo-charged by being mentioned by Robbins Landon. I’m really not sure why Haydn should reference Mozart in a movement where the mood and spirit of the music had already been determined by God Save the King; everyone in England knew the national anthem, but as Haydn noted with some dismay, he found Mozart ‘…almost unknown’ in England. In short, if he was quoting Mozart, nobody would have realised it. On the other hand, maybe it was a personal and private tribute; I’m not convinced, but I could just as well be right as wrong.
One more magnificent symphony. This masterpiece touches us deeply in our soul not only for the lyricism but for the sensitivity, I think nobody can be indifferent to this marvelous music. The direction and the orchestra performance are exceptional. Viva Haydn and his amazing talent and musicality. Bravo for this glorious recording.
@@loganfruchtman953 Possibly, but I think not. This idea of a tribute to Mozart is entirely speculative conjecture originally I think by Tovey in his astonishingly prescient commentaries on the late Haydn symphonies, and then mentioned again by the great Haydn scholar HC Robbins Landon; it has then gained traction be being frequently read, believed, repeated, and propagated; for what it’s worth, I think it’s simply fanciful wishful thinking. Rather more definitely, this movement is a nod and tribute to Haydn’s London audiences as he teases them with just this slightest hints of ‘God Save the King’. (JC Bach had done something similar though much more blatantly obviously in his keyboard concerto Opus 1 No 6 published in 1763). In short: it’s England that is in Haydn’s mind here, not Mozart, and we know that when he got home, the powerful impact of the British national anthem on the composer was the stimulus to provide the musically far superior ‘Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser’ for his own country in 1797.
@@swinger9374 It’s not funny at all ie trying to induce laughter; better playfully ingenious I think. (There is humour in Haydn, but it’s often massively over-stated, and usually where it doesn’t exist at all!).
I don't really agree with Bruggen's tempo choices in the coda to the finale, but it sure is fun, and I can't help thinking it would have given Haydn a chuckle.
I disagree. I think Bruggen is the only one who gets it right. Most conductors blaze through that beautiful harpsichord obbligato so fast that the musicality is completely lost. This must be the way it was originally played.
@@martinhelliwell291 I like it too; you never usually hear the charming subtleties of the lilting melody and it's lovely to hear it breathe for once. At the London premier Haydn played this part himself (on the piano); he was a competent pianist but no virtuoso so would surely have appreciated the more relaxed tempo! The end of the finale, with showcase solo spots both for himself and for his impresario and orchestra leader Salomon, is pure theatre and must have delighted the London audience.
I also disagree, and agree with the two other well-informed replies given here. I think it was Mozart who said that the proper tempi would always reveal themselves through the music's own internal logic. Some inspired conductors "get" it; many, however, do not, and slavishly follow the Herd which went before them.
@@henryopitz3254 Haydn heard God Save the King repeatedly whilst in England, Symphony 98 written in 1792 certainly has clear hints of this. But Gott erhalte? The Emperor’s hymn was written as late as 1797, and only after considerable work by Haydn. What is it you can hear in particular?
@@henryopitz3254 Agreed. The other point is clearly my misunderstanding; I think it sounds good in the German version ‘Heil dir im Siegerkranz’ too - though oddly, totally different in mood and character when compared to the English words and context. The German version of course came much later than the English original; it was adopted only after the German unification of 1871 and the creation of the German Empire, and backdate it so far to Haydn and the 18th century is anachronistic and un-historical leading only to confusion and misunderstanding. PS. *Haydn* (sic).
This great music and Burggens interpretation is interesting. However the sound quality on this upload is extremely poor which detracts highly from the enjoyment. I checked the file size and it turned out to be 12mb. That;s about a 15th of the problable original size on the cd. Way too much compression.
The mp3 part of the video is exactly 36.1 MB encoded at 192kbps. Check your internet speed. RUclips adapts its download ratio to the viewer's connection capacity.
@@ComposersbyNumbers The method I use it to see what file size would result if I were to download it using a dowloader. In this case the size I mention is the quote given for the highest quality. But, this is really immaterial. Even 36.1mB is a huge reduction on the CD file size and it can be heard.
@@bobshifimods7302 I have so many friends who make these claims and then I test it scientifically with them and they can’t tell the difference. It’s like people who freak out when their headphones don’t go up to 20K Hz when almost no humans can actually detect that frequency. Or like wine tasters, who almost never can tell the difference between similar (but not similarly priced) wines when actually tested scientifically.
The Minuet movement of this symphony is marked Allegro, in Symphonies 28 and 94 it gets even quicker at Allegro molto; Mozart’s symphonic Minuets are slightly different and never go beyond an Allegretto-type. As Haydn survived Mozart, and Beethoven arrived in Vienna after Mozart’s death, both these composers pushed on with the development of the Minuet in the 1790’s as it was becoming increasingly old-fashioned; Haydn did this by speeding it up out of recognition, Beethoven by transforming it into a Scherzo as in his first symphony. (Haydn too wrote genuine scherzi in some of his later string quartets). In his symphonies, Haydn never quite managed to get to a genuine one-in-a-bar Scherzo - but came close; he did however write Minuets in his symphonies that are too quick to dance, and that’s before we begin to consider the fact that they are too irregular to dance ie they depart too often from 4+4+4+4, or 8 or 16 bar sequences necessary to match the dance steps. In the performances by older the conductors you mention - and many of their contemporaries - the Minuets are too slow, indeed many of them plod along in a sort of slow motion dance of the elephants (though often beautifully played as in the case of Klemperer whose Haydn I think is lovely). Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all wrote exquisite dancing Minuets for Viennese balls, they are well-worth seeking out, if only to hear the difference between a dancing Minuet and a symphonic one. Regardless of all that, many listeners do find the faster Minuets particularly in modern performances to be too fast, but as there are now so many performances to choose from, it’s not difficult to find one that suits your own preferences.
Intentionally so. J.C. Bach had used `God Save the King" in London for one of his own piano concertos, also promoted by Salomon. And Haydn was aware of Bach's work.
@@haanashim Unless you know something that I don’t, the chances of Haydn hearing an old-fashioned harpsichord concerto by JC Bach in 1790’s London - accompanied by two violins and bass - written as far back as 1763 are next to zero. That said, JC’s lovely Opus 1 No 6 where we find the final variation movement based on ‘God Save the King’ is a lovely work; however, JC’s later sets Opera 7 and 13 are far more modern - ie Mozartian-feel - works which did survive a little longer.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 There is the story about Haydn hearing a performance of Op. 13.4 in London and asking for a score of the last mvt (The Yellow-Haired Laddie). Not sure how that could have worked given that JC died in 1782 and Haydn's first visit to London was supposedly in 1791, but perhaps there were earlier, exploratory visits.
@@davidklein5007 I was not aware of the story you mention, so will look into that point about him hearing JC’s Opus 13 No 4. Haydn’s Symphonies 76 - 78 were specifically composed for a planned trip to London in 1782 which never happened, but - as was true throughout the 1780’s - there was often talk of the possibility, including the English newspapers suggesting that the composer should be kidnapped and brought over. Haydn’s arrival in England on New Year’s Day 1791 was definitely his first visit. Regarding the JC Bach concerto, it is just conceivable that Haydn could have heard it in London, but it is absolutely certain that he knew ‘The Yellow-Haired Laddie’ later, as it was one of the hundreds of Scottish folk songs he arranged - in this case for the publisher William Whyte, after his return to Vienna. There is a fine performance on RUclips which you might find of interest (it is Hob.XXXIa:211), and is taken from the complete folksong arrangements by Lorna Anderson, Jamie MacDougall, and the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Perhaps my memory is faulty after 30 years or so and the performance in question didn't take place in London. And, yes, I love Haydn song settings!
+Hunter Allen Although Haydn wrote "Cembalo solo" (according to the authoritative edition by HC Robbins-Landon), his colleague Samuel Wesley reported the following from the 1792 premiere he attended himself, conducted by Haydn : "(...) In the Finale of one of his Symphonies is a Passage of attractive Brilliancy, which he has given to the Piano Forte, and which the Writer of this Memoir remembers him to have executed with the utmost Accuracy and Precision." Everything was random, from the number of strings (variable of course at that time) to the use of the keyboard. And if Haydn himself played this lovely part on the pianoforte instead of the harpsichord, then both are possible. I prefer the pianoforte in this part as well !
Hunter Allen note that it's a right hand solo --- so he could wave with his left? it is after all his farewell to London (he thought). Goes with the slow movement starting as God Save thd King.
@@doktorschoen6019 This had never occurred to me before!! As it happens I began listening to this trailblazing work (both in terms of the genius first movement form and timpani / trumpet in a symphony in B-flat major) during the last semester of my full-time undergraduate studies.
@Manu Petaia The fact that Haydn published continuo parts for his operas and sacred music, but not for his symphonies, indicates that he did not think it was essential for the symphonies.
Adagio in loving memory of his friend Mozart.
The idea that the Adagio movement is a tribute to Mozart is speculative conjecture at best; I believe the spirit and mood of the movement is a grateful nod to his English hosts, evident by the subtlest hints of God Save the King heard at the outset.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 it quotes several Mozart works including the Agnus Dei from his Coronation Mass and the slow movement of the Jupiter Symphony along with God Save the King. This is Haydn’s true response to the death of his greatest and most passionate fan, Mozart.
@@loganfruchtman953
As I said, it’s all speculative conjecture; additionally, over his entire career, Haydn hardly ever quotes other composers, and off the top of my head, he plays around with Gluck’s ‘Che farò senza Euridice’ in one of the early baryton trios, and directly quotes the falling motif from the slow movement of Mozart Symphony 40 in The Seasons - and that’s about it over a career spanning about 55 years.
Thank you for sharing. I love Haydn and this symphony is a favorite.
The slow movement is supposedly Haydn's reaction to hearing of Mozart's death. Very beautiful and heartfelt.
PTCello at 11:50 you can hear a quote of a chord progression from the Jupiter Symphony slow movement.
PTCello
Possibly, but I wonder if there might not instead be a more deliberate, but discrete and subtle hint of the ‘God save the King’.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 There is no doubt, it's a play on Mozarts Jupiter.
@@beethovenlovedmozart
Still not sure that 11:50 isn’t just an example of two contemporary composers of the highest stature - who knew each other extraordinarily well - using a shared common musical language rather than one referencing another; one composer occasionally being reminiscent of another inevitably occurs from time to time.
Perhaps it is a sort of paraphrase of Mozart - it’s difficult today to know what was in Haydn’s mind.
This Mozart/Haydn link - the speculative conjecture of the movement being Haydn’s tribute to his dead friend - now associated with the slow movement in Haydn 98 originated I think from Tovey, but was turbo-charged by being mentioned by Robbins Landon.
I’m really not sure why Haydn should reference Mozart in a movement where the mood and spirit of the music had already been determined by God Save the King; everyone in England knew the national anthem, but as Haydn noted with some dismay, he found Mozart ‘…almost unknown’ in England.
In short, if he was quoting Mozart, nobody would have realised it.
On the other hand, maybe it was a personal and private tribute; I’m not convinced, but I could just as well be right as wrong.
@@doktorschoen6019 except Haydn would never have heard the Jupiter Symphony
One more magnificent symphony. This masterpiece touches us deeply in our soul not only for the lyricism but for the sensitivity, I think nobody can be indifferent to this marvelous music. The direction and the orchestra performance are exceptional. Viva Haydn and his amazing talent and musicality. Bravo for this glorious recording.
I love the Adagio cantabile movement. The opening melody shows up again in the Agnus Dei movement of Haydn's Harmoniemesse.
It is a tribute to Mozart who died during the Haydn wrote the symphony
@@loganfruchtman953
Possibly, but I think not.
This idea of a tribute to Mozart is entirely speculative conjecture originally I think by Tovey in his astonishingly prescient commentaries on the late Haydn symphonies, and then mentioned again by the great Haydn scholar HC Robbins Landon; it has then gained traction be being frequently read, believed, repeated, and propagated; for what it’s worth, I think it’s simply fanciful wishful thinking.
Rather more definitely, this movement is a nod and tribute to Haydn’s London audiences as he teases them with just this slightest hints of ‘God Save the King’.
(JC Bach had done something similar though much more blatantly obviously in his keyboard concerto Opus 1 No 6 published in 1763).
In short: it’s England that is in Haydn’s mind here, not Mozart, and we know that when he got home, the powerful impact of the British national anthem on the composer was the stimulus to provide the musically far superior ‘Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser’ for his own country in 1797.
This has always been one of my favourite Haydn symphonies - a genius at the height of his powers.
This symphony has the longest finale movement among all haydn's symphonies
And also the funniest!
ThePianoChannel Better ‘playfully ingenious’?
Wow! That IS long!! (Never really checked before...)
ThePianoChannel 88th Symphony’s Finale is funnier
@@swinger9374
It’s not funny at all ie trying to induce laughter; better playfully ingenious I think.
(There is humour in Haydn, but it’s often massively over-stated, and usually where it doesn’t exist at all!).
La fin du 4e mouvement est géniale et drôlissime...
drôlissime et douloureux...
At age 13 it was a great
Joy air conducting this
piece. ❤ 😊
I don't really agree with Bruggen's tempo choices in the coda to the finale, but it sure is fun, and I can't help thinking it would have given Haydn a chuckle.
I disagree. I think Bruggen is the only one who gets it right. Most conductors blaze through that beautiful harpsichord obbligato so fast that the musicality is completely lost. This must be the way it was originally played.
@@martinhelliwell291 I like it too; you never usually hear the charming subtleties of the lilting melody and it's lovely to hear it breathe for once. At the London premier Haydn played this part himself (on the piano); he was a competent pianist but no virtuoso so would surely have appreciated the more relaxed tempo! The end of the finale, with showcase solo spots both for himself and for his impresario and orchestra leader Salomon, is pure theatre and must have delighted the London audience.
I also disagree, and agree with the two other well-informed replies given here. I think it was Mozart who said that the proper tempi would always reveal themselves through the music's own internal logic. Some inspired conductors "get" it; many, however, do not, and slavishly follow the Herd which went before them.
Thanks for uploading!
2nd movement: English national anthem!
Also the german Kaiser-anthem.
@@henryopitz3254
Haydn heard God Save the King repeatedly whilst in England, Symphony 98 written in 1792 certainly has clear hints of this.
But Gott erhalte?
The Emperor’s hymn was written as late as 1797, and only after considerable work by Haydn.
What is it you can hear in particular?
@@elaineblackhurst1509 No, not Gott erhalte. I was talking about "Heil dir im Siegerkranz".
@@elaineblackhurst1509 but yes, Hadyn was defintly refering to the english anthem in this symphony.
@@henryopitz3254
Agreed.
The other point is clearly my misunderstanding; I think it sounds good in the German version ‘Heil dir im Siegerkranz’ too - though oddly, totally different in mood and character when compared to the English words and context.
The German version of course came much later than the English original; it was adopted only after the German unification of 1871 and the creation of the German Empire, and backdate it so far to Haydn and the 18th century is anachronistic and un-historical leading only to confusion and misunderstanding.
PS. *Haydn* (sic).
This great music and Burggens interpretation is interesting. However the sound quality on this upload is extremely poor which detracts highly from the enjoyment. I checked the file size and it turned out to be 12mb. That;s about a 15th of the problable original size on the cd. Way too much compression.
The mp3 part of the video is exactly 36.1 MB encoded at 192kbps. Check your internet speed. RUclips adapts its download ratio to the viewer's connection capacity.
@@ComposersbyNumbers The method I use it to see what file size would result if I were to download it using a dowloader. In this case the size I mention is the quote given for the highest quality. But, this is really immaterial. Even 36.1mB is a huge reduction on the CD file size and it can be heard.
@@bobshifimods7302 I have so many friends who make these claims and then I test it scientifically with them and they can’t tell the difference. It’s like people who freak out when their headphones don’t go up to 20K Hz when almost no humans can actually detect that frequency. Or like wine tasters, who almost never can tell the difference between similar (but not similarly priced) wines when actually tested scientifically.
The piano solo toward the end reminds me of an Apple ad: ruclips.net/video/z1APG3HjO4Q/видео.html
lol true 😂😂 when it goes into the iPhone part.
what kind of Minuetto is this, why so fast? Harnoncourt also....Beecham and Klemperer give a more credible tempo.
The Minuet movement of this symphony is marked Allegro, in Symphonies 28 and 94 it gets even quicker at Allegro molto; Mozart’s symphonic Minuets are slightly different and never go beyond an Allegretto-type.
As Haydn survived Mozart, and Beethoven arrived in Vienna after Mozart’s death, both these composers pushed on with the development of the Minuet in the 1790’s as it was becoming increasingly old-fashioned; Haydn did this by speeding it up out of recognition, Beethoven by transforming it into a Scherzo as in his first symphony.
(Haydn too wrote genuine scherzi in some of his later string quartets).
In his symphonies, Haydn never quite managed to get to a genuine one-in-a-bar Scherzo - but came close; he did however write Minuets in his symphonies that are too quick to dance, and that’s before we begin to consider the fact that they are too irregular to dance ie they depart too often from 4+4+4+4, or 8 or 16 bar sequences necessary to match the dance steps.
In the performances by older the conductors you mention - and many of their contemporaries - the Minuets are too slow, indeed many of them plod along in a sort of slow motion dance of the elephants (though often beautifully played as in the case of Klemperer whose Haydn I think is lovely).
Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven all wrote exquisite dancing Minuets for Viennese balls, they are well-worth seeking out, if only to hear the difference between a dancing Minuet and a symphonic one.
Regardless of all that, many listeners do find the faster Minuets particularly in modern performances to be too fast, but as there are now so many performances to choose from, it’s not difficult to find one that suits your own preferences.
🎼A
The opening of the slow movement sounds like "God Save the Queen".
Intentionally so. J.C. Bach had used `God Save the King" in London for one of his own piano concertos, also promoted by Salomon. And Haydn was aware of Bach's work.
@@haanashim
Unless you know something that I don’t, the chances of Haydn hearing an old-fashioned harpsichord concerto by JC Bach in 1790’s London - accompanied by two violins and bass - written as far back as 1763 are next to zero.
That said, JC’s lovely Opus 1 No 6 where we find the final variation movement based on ‘God Save the King’ is a lovely work; however, JC’s later sets Opera 7 and 13 are far more modern - ie Mozartian-feel - works which did survive a little longer.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 There is the story about Haydn hearing a performance of Op. 13.4 in London and asking for a score of the last mvt (The Yellow-Haired Laddie).
Not sure how that could have worked given that JC died in 1782 and Haydn's first visit to London was supposedly in 1791, but perhaps there were earlier, exploratory visits.
@@davidklein5007
I was not aware of the story you mention, so will look into that point about him hearing JC’s Opus 13 No 4.
Haydn’s Symphonies 76 - 78 were specifically composed for a planned trip to London in 1782 which never happened, but - as was true throughout the 1780’s - there was often talk of the possibility, including the English newspapers suggesting that the composer should be kidnapped and brought over.
Haydn’s arrival in England on New Year’s Day 1791 was definitely his first visit.
Regarding the JC Bach concerto, it is just conceivable that Haydn could have heard it in London, but it is absolutely certain that he knew ‘The Yellow-Haired Laddie’ later, as it was one of the hundreds of Scottish folk songs he arranged - in this case for the publisher William Whyte, after his return to Vienna.
There is a fine performance on RUclips which you might find of interest (it is Hob.XXXIa:211), and is taken from the complete folksong arrangements by Lorna Anderson, Jamie MacDougall, and the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Perhaps my memory is faulty after 30 years or so and the performance in question didn't take place in London. And, yes, I love Haydn song settings!
The piano at the end sounds a bit out of place. Probably would have been better played on a harpsichord.
Not really, the symphony was first played in London. Haydn was conducting the orchestra from the piano forte.
7:30めくら印というよーな帝ふーー
why did he put the piano part in the end? I liked it but it was very unusual
+Hunter Allen Although Haydn wrote "Cembalo solo" (according to the authoritative edition by HC Robbins-Landon), his colleague Samuel Wesley reported the following from the 1792 premiere he attended himself, conducted by Haydn :
"(...) In the Finale of one of his Symphonies is a Passage of attractive Brilliancy, which he has given to the Piano Forte, and which the Writer of this Memoir remembers him to have executed with the utmost Accuracy and Precision."
Everything was random, from the number of strings (variable of course at that time) to the use of the keyboard. And if Haydn himself played this lovely part on the pianoforte instead of the harpsichord, then both are possible. I prefer the pianoforte in this part as well !
Hunter Allen note that it's a right hand solo --- so he could wave with his left? it is after all his farewell to London (he thought). Goes with the slow movement starting as God Save thd King.
@@doktorschoen6019 This had never occurred to me before!! As it happens I began listening to this trailblazing work (both in terms of the genius first movement form and timpani / trumpet in a symphony in B-flat major) during the last semester of my full-time undergraduate studies.
Hunter Allen Haydn the showman; the ensuing applause would have brought the house down.
@Manu Petaia The fact that Haydn published continuo parts for his operas and sacred music, but not for his symphonies, indicates that he did not think it was essential for the symphonies.