Hello Medusa. 😊 Just to help prepare you for what's ahead - Yes.... you will cry MANY more times, before this universe is finished with you... But, you wouldn't trade that in for ANYTHING in the world! Be seeing you Medusa in that place, where No Shadows Fall..... 😉❤
"Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski revealed after O'Hare's death, that the actor had suffered from severe mental illness.[42][43][44] During the filming of the first season of Babylon 5, O'Hare began having paranoid delusions, and halfway through, his hallucinations worsened. It became increasingly difficult for O'Hare to continue working, his behavior was becoming increasingly erratic, and he was often at odds with his colleagues. Straczynski offered to suspend production for several months to accommodate treatment; however O'Hare feared that such a hiatus would put the series at risk, and he didn't want to jeopardize others' jobs. Straczynski agreed to keep O'Hare's condition secret to protect his career, and O'Hare agreed to complete the first season, but would be written out of the second season so that he could seek treatment. His departure from the cast was announced without explanation, except that it was mutual and amicable.[45][46] His treatments were only partially successful. He reappeared in a cameo appearance early in season two ("The Coming of Shadows") and returned in season three for a two-part episode ("War Without End") which closed his character's story arc. At that time, Straczynski promised O'Hare to keep his condition secret "to my grave". O'Hare told him to instead "keep the secret to my grave", arguing that fans deserved to eventually learn the real reason for his departure, and that his experience could raise awareness and understanding for people suffering from mental illness"
The cameo in season two was actually filmed towards the end of season one when O’Hare decided to leave. JMS kept it in his back pocket to drop in at the right moment.
Small side note, O'Hare was visiting his father as I recall andhe had to stop by a bank to get some money out, several years I think after the run of B5 and he went up to a teller and the guy behind the glass saw O'Hare trying to find his ID, and he said 'That won't be necessary, Commander.' Its one of the bright spots that O'Hare would tell before he passed. His work touched people and they remember. ...and that memory endures til we all return to the place where no shadows fall.
One of the great things about B5 cast and creators where friends and protected and took care of each other. One of the reasons the chemestry was so great. Even walter konig who was initialy asked for the role of sinclair who had a heart atack before filming they wanted to suspend the filming till he recoverd but konig said to go ahead and was offered the role of bester as recurant character. A great bunch of people that realy enjoyed and stood behind the creators. ashame Crusade was cut short. as it would have been a great series like B5.
He was a truly lovely bloke, I had the good fortune to meet him a couple of times at conventions, and he was so good and kind to people, he'd chat so long he'd miss signings.
I've heard this episode was originally meant to be the last episode of the whole series, before O'Hara had to leave the show. But after he left it of course couldn't really work but JMS re-worked it beautifully.
I remember watching this "live" when it was broadcasted originally. So much excitement & speculation on those early BBS-boards. It is so rare that one's incredibly high expectations are met, but B5 did it constantly. Nowadays it's always fun to watch new people experience Babylon 5 for the first time - so thank you 'dusa for allowing us old farts to live out one more "moment of perfect beauty".
I read back when this season was first on TV that this two-parter was previewed during a convention weekend. According to the article, the audience was both mesmerized and devastated at the end of it, with a lot of people crying or embracing each other after that final shot. I wish I could've been there.
Except for the fact that if the original plan had gone ahead B4 would have moved forward in time, rather than backwards. The reason that War Without End exists is down to Michael O'Hare's mental health problems. JMS is on record as saying that B5 is the only show he's ever worked on where each crisis somehow managed to leave the show in better condition than it was before, and expanded the show's universe.
@@djashley2002 War Without End is amazing that way. It's like an ice skater tripped and managed to do a backflip into a triple axle, all while his skates are crumbling. It's an unbelievable achievement and a real testament to JMS's writing chops...* chef's kiss *
One small detail no one yet mentioned: the history of the Swedish meatballs is also explained in this episode. It was Sinclair's favourite food and going back in time he spread the recipe among the intelligent races, so for example Narns also have this meal.
As G'Kar said, 'Its a secret that will probably drive one mad if they ever found the answer.' So I'm just gonna say, nice thinking, and go make some Breen.
Can't express how much joy these reactions bring. Like watching the show for the first time all over again. This two parter is amazing, glad to see you appreciating it!
THIS ist how you do a time travel story. I don't think I've ever seen another one on this level. (And after this episode, "in Valen's Name" hits differently. Imagine knowing that for a thousand years, your whole (adopted) race is saying this...)
We were frequently after saying By Jeff, and In Jeff's name ;) By Jeff I think we've got it ;) and my personal favorite transposition "You will stand aside in his name and in mine or in Jeff's name I will tear this ship apart with my bare hands until I find them." ...and after this episode it still work's equally as threateningly.
One of my all time favourite episodes, it rocked EVERYONES socks back in the day, I watched B5 on first broadcast every episode as it came out, the 90's was a great time for tv!! I actually met Michael O Hare, he was in Australia at a convention and he signed my copy of "To dream in the city of sorrows" If you havent read it, you really should
When the show was first telecast, there was no affiliate in our area. So someone with a satellite dish would tape the download, and a week later on a late Wednesday afternoon we'd gather at the local comic book shop which had a big screen TV and watch it standing up for an hour in place. You'd think standing for an hour in a big group for a TV show would be silly -- but we never minded. JMS always delivered. Eventually, I think around or in the middle of Season 4, a local station bought the show to show Sunday night after the late news, and the Wednesday gatherings stopped out of respect that someone local was finally carrying the show. But I never forgot the camaraderie, and the feeling we were seeing something special grow and blossom, like a beautiful flower growing in a crack in the asphalt of a parking lot, and fighting to stay alive in an oppressive and toxic environment that was syndication and Hollywood in general. I'm sure the original Trekkers felt similarly. So, I echo Delenn, cherish it. Because with all the bafflegab about special effects and CGI, it's still great storytelling that wins the day, and acting up to the task of portraying that story. I want to gently hug you, medusa, and dry those tears -- as a way of saying thank you for letting me see the series again through your eyes. And I think JMS would be touched to see your reaction -- because it would be a reminder that he did it right, he made someone feel deeply enough to cry about these imaginary people made real in your mind. And your reaction is high praise, maybe even more now, than then, with all the cynicism and crap of recent years. Be well. See ya in the next episode.
Almost all of my friends and family who are fans of the show were introduced to it by way of the extensive collection of VHS tapes I recorded as it was originally airing. I like to refer to it as "The best show on TV that nobody watched..."
You have to give Michael O'Hare a lot of credit. This isn't a spoiler since you've gotten this far, but there wasn't originally a Sheridan character in the plans for Babylon 5. As you might have heard Michael suffered from paranoid delusions during Season 1 and worked with JMS to be written off without endangering the show. He then came back to wrap up Jeff's story arc which JMS slightly altered originally Jeff was Valen reborn not actually Valen, but JMS figured out a way to give the character closure with was already written. So a standing around of applause for Michael O'Hare a great commander on B5 and better person in real life who put his co-workers and fans 1st even when dealing with unimaginable personal demons. RIP Michael O'Hare (1952-2012) one of the sadly many cast members this show has lost may they all rest where no shadows fall.
I wonder -- what was the original plan? I'd assumed JMS *always* intended for Sinclair to become Valen; so presumbly, he was supposed to do a lot of the things that Sheridan did in the actual series (investigating Clark's rise to power, breaking away from Earth, creating the connection with the Rangers, etc.), and then keep it up until they reached the equivalent of "War Without End", which would still conclude with him going back in time and becoming Valen. Question is, who would have taken control of Babylon 5 once he was gone?
@@ugolombJMS published the original 5 year arc in a special Vol 15 of his script books from the series. The G'Kar/London story is the pretty much the same, while Sinclair/Deleen is similar to Sheridan/Deleen in some ways but largely different. B5 is actually destroyed in season 5, and B4 has a larger role thereafter
I love seeing the look on your face when all the Tetris pieces come together and disappear, revealing the truth. And yes, that was Delenn back in Babylon Squared. That's why we couldn't see who Jeff was talking to, because that would have revealed Delenn's transformation.
"Treasure the moments you have, savour them for as long as you can, for they'll never come back again." These wise words from Delenn in this episode sum up watching Babylon 5. You can re-watch it and enjoy it, but you'll never experience it in the same way. So treasure these moments and savour them Medusa. I hope the memories of the emotions you feel remain with you for a long, long time.
@@walterbishop1697 indeed, but it's not the same as being blown away that first time is it? The power of the unexpected twists and turns, the payoffs for all the set ups laid so far in advance, witnessing the evolution of the characters and their relationships without knowing about them in advance, the unexpected revelations - the mind blowing, jaw dropping brilliance of these things can simply never be replicated a second time. It's quite simply the best written TV show of all time, which is why it's so eminently rewatchable, and it's difficult to fathom why it doesn't get anything like the recognition it deserves. I can only assume it's because it's 'science fiction' and too many people can't see beyond that, but the influence it had on the evolution of US TV is unquestionable. Prior to B5 series were all episodic. JMS's story and character arcs revolutionised the industry. His genius deserves far greater recognition than it gets.
I remember the first time after I saw this episode, after that final scene, I just walked around my house in a daze for about half an hour. I was so stunned and blown away by what JMS had just done. I couldn't do anything else. I just had to absorb it.
The way this double parter links to Babylon Squared is a thing of mastery. When you've done with the show, it's worth going back to just watch those three in order. Not sure if you picked it up at the time but there was a brief mention of Zathras on Epsilon 3 in passing by Draal in one of the three big episodes (S3E8-10 if I recall) which was a really neat little bit of set up. There is so much of this pair of episodes to love, like the subversion of Londo's dream about dying with G'Kar, and now it means something very different to the way it read in season 1, and then you get the pay off of Vir walking in which pays off the prophecy that he'd be the emperor after Londo (though at the time they speculated about the order of who'd be first). It pays off mentions of Valen that go back to Passing Through Gethsemene. You also get the sheer body horror of the keepers because Babylon 5 just loves the nightmare fuel antagonists! Really glad that you enjoyed this episode, it was sort of promised to Michael O'Hare when he was dropped from the show for mental health reasons that if JMS could, he'd bring him back to close off the character's arc, and they did just enough little bits in between to keep it going like having him head up the rangers. In part I'd love to know what the original plan was, but I'm so happy with what it ended up being. As for this show breaking you? It's part of the skill of the writinng - go back to season 1 and you'd be shocked to think you'd care much about G'Kar dying, but here we are...
The original plan is out there on the internet if you really want to know. Along with how thing's kept changing as different challenges came up (characters leaving, potentially not getting a fifth season, getting a fifth season & a spin off show). It's impressive the juggling act performed by JMS and a minor miracle this 2 parter in particular works so well. This story (the other half of Babylon Squared) was originally meant to be at the end of Season 5 back when Jeff was still the main character (and the ultimate destination of Babylon 4 / Jeff being Valen was different) but instead this story is effectively now a pivot from the original arc (with up to this point only minor tweaks along the way), to the new (with much larger changes) - it also "locks in" certain story elements (with the flashes forward - that unfortunately we only got in Book form - some of that was originally to have played out in their proper context on TV). Look up Babylon Prime - very interesting reading & makes me wonder if JMS manages to get a reboot show off the ground which story he would be adapting / what changes he might walk back from what we got first time round.
Agreed 100%! Do a search for "Babylon prime original ending b5" and you can find a description of the original plan. Frankly I highly prefer the ending we got, and am still just gobsmacked at how well he was able to stitch it all together. Truly a master of his craft.
JMS broke your heart - again, but I think it is in a good way. Superb story telling. "Cannot run out of time! There is infinite time. You are finite - Zathras is finite ... This - is wrong tool." Zathras is so much fun, yet essential. "The One who was, The One who is, and The One who will be" I love that one. Yes, this looks like goodbye to Jeff Sinclair ... but wait, there is more ... "I am called Valen - and we have much work ahead of us".Sinclair becoming Valen is perfect, even if it was not originally planned in the beginning of season 1. This is probably the best JMS' "trap door" for any character in B5. This shows the genius of JMS' story telling. The wonderful combination of Babylon Squared and this one is the best time travel story I have seen, essentially consistent and everything. I love it. This is the fulfilment of Michael O'Hare'/Jeffrey Sinclair arc, and it is beautifully done.
Sinclair as Valen may well have been planned from the beginning, but not necessarily how it happened here. When Kosh first arrives on Babylon 5 and thinks he is meeting Sinclair, Kosh addresses him as "Entelzan Valen"... probably mispelled that first word.
@@daviddalke926 not exactly. That line was dubbed into the Special Edition of The Gathering, a re-edited cut made as the series was picked up for broadcast on TNT Network following the approval of the 5th season. As the original version of the pilot aired almost a full year before the first season premiered, certain changes had to be made to bring it up to speed...
From what I understand this one was actually not a JMS "trap door" because it was to be the ending of the orginal 5 year plan with Sinclair as the commander. So it kinda explains why War Without End feels so epic cause it could have been the Babylon 5 series finale!
The level of carefully planned and perfectly executed GENUINE science-fiction story telling going on here is truly extraordinary. It wasn't enough to have the great world-building and characters you cared about, you have mind-blowing over-arcing plotting as well.
I think Bruce Boxleitner put it best in one of his interviews: "Lighting in a bottle." I agree with him it's unlikely to be able to make that catch again.
This is an episode with no comparison born out of the imagination of an incredible writer and storyteller. To be honest, I don't know if there has ever been as many temporal references in all directions in television ever. Just wow!
I find this double episode from season 3 that ties in with a season 1 episode the best to date of any tv show or film that deals with a time travel scenario. this is the main reason why JMS (THE GREAT MAKER) is a writing legend and why all of us die hard Babylon 5 fans eagerly await the propsed reboot in the near future
I'm I die hard Babylon 5 fan but I'm not eagerly awaiting the proposed reboot. Why attempt to remake virtual perfection? It's like Michelangelo knocking on the door of the Sistine Chapel 30 years after completing his masterpiece and saying "I've just come to repaint the ceiling." I'd love another tale set in the B5 universe or something similarly constructed by JMS but completely separate, but not another version of the greatest TV show of all time. A reboot of Crusade would have been a great idea a few years ago, but the key actors would be too old now even if you could bring them back together and of course further appearances by many of our favourite B5 characters would no longer be possible. That show had great potential and it's such a shame the executives ruined it for us all.
@@jjc5407 I completely agree. I think behind the scenes there's one or two of us in a position of authority, a ranger or two if you will, secretly putting the kaibosh on reboots but always making sure there's a re-release, an update to the graphics, cleaning of the film, putting it to streaming and keeping perfect preservation. We stand on the bridge so that no one may pass, we live for the one, we die for the one.
@@jjc5407 Given what he's achieved, and the fact that he's had 30 years to further his writing skills and to ponder the B5 characters and universe, I for one can't wait to see what he's planning next.
@@StockportJambo I understand that, but it's still going to be Babylon 5 with, at the very least, a character called John Sheridan. I just don't see the point of that. I'd love to see a similarly complex 5 year story from JMS but just not an alternate version of Babylon 5.
The business with "The One" is a bit of a patch job after Michael O'Hare's unexpected departure, but this is a great two-parter, nonetheless. We see two payoffs for Londo: the dream of his death by G'kar's hands comes true, and the same time, he redeems himself by taking the final chance he was given by Morella.
Always a pleasure to see your reactions to this wonderful series. Fun fact: The spacesuits used in this episode were originally props made for Stanley Kubrick's 1968 sci-fi epic "2001: A Space Odyssey". They were spray-painted blue for B5.
This episode showed me how/why JMS is an epic storyteller. And how much of a wonderful human being he really is. Closing Jeff's story arc as Valen told me that JMS and O'Hare were good friends. But JMS still had a story to tell. Until this show, no one had done an interconnected seasonal story arc much less a series story arc. And 'back doors' were unheard of. Most characters that left shows were written off or just barely mentioned. Thus, in my mind, JMS is the best writer of the '90's. Ending a story arc and foreshadowing galore! That SOB could really tell a story!!! As always, love your reactions ❤️
I'm starting to really fall in love with these reaction videos from her. However, the one thing that she doesn't realize and really can't realize, is what it was like back in the 90s for us to watch it the first time. The endless reruns, the not knowing whether the show was going to be cancelled, and the waiting for 2 years to see what a Vorlon looked like or to see episodes like this that resolve story arcs from the first season. That was groundbreaking. I look forward to her future reactions...
You are the first reactor that brings me to tears. Babylon 5 is one of the finest pieces of television drama anywhere. It's more than sci fi. It's art, it's theatre. It's Oscar, Emmy, Bafta worthy theatre. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Babylon Squared and War Without End. Are probably; in my opinion, the best time travel stories ever seen on screen. Hugs from Scotland!
This story was just such an incredible achievement, given how many behind-the-scenes shakeups there were between "Babylon Squared" and this. Like you, I love Sinclair, and so I'm so glad that the show got the chance to wrap up his story in a satisfying way, and make him just as important to the history of the universe as Sheridan, even if we didn't see his role in the last Shadow War.
Plot hole mentioned, if you don't want to know then please don't click to see more! If mods decide to not approve this I won't be upset or offended, it's all good It still amazes me to this day how well JMS laid the foundations for this 3yrs earlier. Michael's mental health struggles caused JMS to make some big changes to his plans but he made sure to leave the door open for when Michael was well enough to return & I love JMS for everything he did to try to help Michael. Time travel is often flubbed in sci fi but JMS wrote this masterfully. - - - - There is one plot inconsistency with events set in Babylon Squared & War Without End. In Babylon Squared the station Commander said they were in the conference room, there was a flash & then Zathras appeared (I love Zathras), as we saw here he was found searching for tools. I handwave it away cause "Timey wimey, wibble wobbly". Maybe time & events can be changed in small ways providing the over all outcome is the same. Also, someone in costumes didn't know they'd revisit B4 in a time loop. When the time came they'd lost a few costume pieces & couldn't get the right materials to match what was used in Season 1. There are two costume hiccups, one is obvious and one is so tiny that even if looking you'll probably not see but if I tell you you'll never unsee it. I just know that if I didn't mention it in passing then someone may blurt it out, please don't.
The advantage of having a known overall story arc is that it makes time travel stories make sense. Even if they have to be adjusted for real world circumstances.
The best tv series about time travel I have ever seen is 12 Monkeys. Absolute genius, with almost everything interconnected with no wasted scenes at all. And I always thought that War Without End is a kind of proof of concept for long arc time travel stories that reaches its perfection in 12 Monkeys. Incidentally, the showrunner for 12 Monkeys is doing season 2 of Picard, a show I would never normally watch, but Terry Matalas is too awesome to ignore.
Back in the 90s, I ate, slept and breathed Babylon 5. I was completely obsessed. It's so wonderful to see it again through your eyes, feeling all for the first time again. Thank you.
This show wasn't written to break you Medusa, it was made to break all of us and make us think about everything. There are so many real world parallels in this show, more so now than when it was first broadcast. Hope you enjoy the rest of the series as much as you have the episodes viewed so far!
I'm sure for many of us this was 'The One' which cemented forever Babylon 5's place at the apex of TV storytelling, especially with such well-laid-out and intricate plots and histories all coming to their rightful culmination. The story of Valen has thus come full-circle; but as always, will reverberate throughout the rest of the story yet to come... This two-parter was effectively one of the massive corkscrews on the rollercoaster that B5 continues to be! Hope you continue to enjoy the ride, Medusa...
Sadly the guy who played Jeff wasn’t well, that’s the reason he left. He had schizophrenia . Their two parter was hard enough for him. The creator of the show kept it secret until he passed away.
You have just crossed the half way point on your journey through B5 and I was reminded of: The Gathering: Kosh to Sinclair upon meeting, "Entilzah Valen!". Right there in plain sight... JMS is brilliant! I don't know a single person who catches that on the first watch through or even the 2nd though it's so in your face. I think I did finally on my 3rd time. It's even more amazing that this was not exactly the original outline, because Michael O'hare's departure after season 1 was not planned and Sheridan was(simplistically put) a "trapdoor" character/plot so to speak. Yet this is seamless and the heart of the entire series. It arguably was better this way and really enriched all the characters, especially Sinclair. Beauty out of tragedy. RIP Michael O'hare (and to all the rest who have gone beyond the rim.) If JMS wasn't show running the coming reimage/reboot etc.well no way in Zahadum would I bother.
The real hero in this episode is one no one thinks of. Think of this, the system to bring B4 back to the past isn't fully automatic. But Sinclair is in a cocoon. So, who's piloting B4 back? That's right, Zathras.
My wife and I watched this series when it originally aired. It is one of our favorite sci-fi shows (my real favorite is the reimagined Battlestar Galactica). Watching your reactions is so entertaining! You have really gotten into the show. So glad I found your vlog! Keep up the good work!
A hell of a two-part episode that paid off and closed some threads in the story while also presenting possibilities for the future. I love your reactions and patiently (barely) await the rest of the series. You really should do an entire series re-watch for yourself in the next few years. But give it some time in between.
This was just so very well done- tying everything up so well! Although it was severe illness that meant Michael O'Hare couldn't continue with B5, it was so satisfying to see Sinclair's story given a fitting (and epic!) ending: becoming the most revered Minbari in history & defeating the shadows enough 1000 years in B5s past to ensure a fighting chance for Sheridan this time around! - given how long the Vorlons have been around, I like to think 1 of the ones on B4 was Kosh & he somehow knew who/what Valen was really & helped guide him - giving the Vorlon his interest in the human race, B5 & ultimately in Sheridan! Oh: and congratulations on 1000 uploads!!- look forward to many, many more! 😊
I was so eager to see you react to this one, as a fellow Sinclair lover. If you need a little more Jeff, I highly recommend the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" by Kathryn M. Drennan -- J. Michael Straczynski's now-ex-wife. It covers what Jeff is up to after he leaves B5, and that's really all I want to say about it at this point other than JMS says it's 100% canon, and it's AMAZING.
Great minds think alike. I just made that book recommendation myself. Of all of the B5 books this one is the best I've read so far. I Still haven't read book 3 of the Psi corp trilogy, the Technomage books or the Centauri trilogy of books. They're hard to track down. Fortunately To dream in the city of sorrow is fairly easy to track down & I read it a couple of times each year
Book 1 of the technomage trilogy I like a lot, the other two aren’t as good. The other canon book that has not yet been mentioned is _The Shadow Within_ which I think is my favorite of the canon books. That can be read after S3, _To Dream_ can be read now. It’s probably best to do the trilogies after you finish the series. The one you might be most interested in though is the Legions of Fire trilogy which is kinda like another season of the show.
"Nothing's the same anymore" - Sinclair. Here we go again. Sinclair + Delenn + Sheridan. The Holy Trinity. Great resolution to Sinclair's story. I love how the seeds for it were planted from the beginning.
If you watch the pilot, Kosh addresses the imposter who wants to kill him, as "Entil'Zha Valen". So, strictly speaking, this wasn't a revelation because if you watched carefully, you could have known it right from the beginning. 😂
Jeff forever won me over when his introduction of the dominant Earth religion to The Ambassadors, and that introduction was of one representative of every religion that spans the world. The inclusiveness and respect of every individual's right to choose what navigation inspires their soul's journey. I still missed Jeff but his story was always that story.
What would Garibaldi think if he heard a voice over the radio that said "Watch your back." and that voice was the voice of the man sitting next to him.
Again *all the hugs* xD you're lovely and I'm glad you're loving this show. It's great. J. Michael Straczynski is an amazing writer and it's the reason he's been been brought in to write for so many things. Much love to you ❤️
This is how you treat fans and fan favourites: with respect. While I see the value in creating conflict between the old and the new, I so much prefer this way of handling things to the wanton trashing of old characters to make new soulless characters look better that we so often see these days. Here, instead of deconstructing everything, both members of The Church of Sinclair and Army of Sheridan Lovers get to see a mutual, heartfelt and thematically fitting respect between The One Who Was and The One Who Will Be. Sinclair nodding in acceptance when he sees John and Delenn feels both so good and so right.
One of the greatest advantages of having the entire series mapped out in advance was their ability to film scenes that would only make sense in future seasons and episodes. It's like the entire series was one huge movie that pays off on early hints in the third act. Masterful work, if you ask me.
This is the reason why the Triluminari lit up when it was brought Infront of Geoff when he was brought aboard the Minbari cruiser during the battle of the line. Because it recognises him from when he used it to change himself into a Minbari a thousand years earlier.
had those emotional twisters in the past too when i was watching this show. whats even more impressive is that you can relive these emotions again when re-watching the series . its testament to the show's production and story. Medusa dont stop watching there are more nuggets of stories ahead :D
Given your heartfelt reactions to this show, and the character of Jeffrey Sinclair, I would highly recommend the book *Babylon 5: To Dream in the City of Sorrows* by _Kathryn M. Drennan.ⁿ_ It's a very easy read. You can find the paperback online for less than $10. It fills in some of Jeff's time on Minbar. After that, I also recommend *The Shadow Within* by _Jeanne Cavelos.ⁿ_ Given where you are on patreon, you can start reading it anytime. Along with a few others (the _Psi Corps, Techno Mage_ and _Centauri_ trilogies), these two books are canon, according to JMS. After all _Kathryn M. Drennan_ was his wife at the time hers was written. Be well. ··•✺•·· ⁿ ─ Story outline by *JMS*
I highly suggest NOT reading The Shadown Within just yet. It WILL spoil things revealed in later seasons. To Dream in the City of Sorrows takes you up to this episode so it is fine to read now. jms said that Kathryn Drennan had unprecedented access, so she could make the book 100% canon. Since she was married to jms at the time, that makes sense. ;) The Centauri trilogy by Peter David fills in more for Londo and Vir, the show does a lot, but MUST be read after you have seen the whole series. It WILL spoil things. Same with the Psi-Corp and Technomage triologies. You want to watch Crusade as well for those.
Many of the early B5 novels were written during production of seasons 1 and 2 and are not canon due to the conflicts they created with later episodes. The books mentioned in this thread, however, ARE considered Canon , but to avoid any spoilers should be read AFTER watching the rest of the show.
My favorite scene of all of Babylon 5 is the Zathras speech about everything is three, it seems you were touched as well by this scene. Encompasses B5 in one beautiful written and acted scene!
When you consider that the foreshadowing with the Soul Hunter is from Season 1 Ep. 2 and 60+ episodes later it comes to pass it is rather remarkable. Then when you consider that with hundreds of millions of dollars at their disposal Disney couldn't write 3 episodes of a Star Wars trilogy before filming episode 7 it is even more remarkable what JMS was able to produce. He once noted that early in Season one the network sat him down to discuss notes. They wanted to change several characters and create some couples to introduce some "drama.' Straczynski told how he listened very carefully and then went through the _5 year arc_ for each of the characters they wanted to change and explained how their suggestions would negatively impact what he had planned for each character *two or three seasons* later. He said after that meeting he never got any more "notes" from the network.
The foreshadowing is actually earlier... right in the Pilot movie, the Minbari spy/assasin tells him he has a hole in his mind, that directly goes to the fact he had missing time when he was taken and tested by the grey council, which is where they found the triluminary reacted to him which probably filled in a few of their myths from Valens time, which is why he was released, and the War stopped AND why the Minbari stuck so much effort into funding the Babylon projects (gotta remember the Grey Council knew about Babylon 4 and that something time travel wise was going on they had to ensure it happened etc)... So yeah, the climax of the Gathering basically set the ball rolling with the foreshadowing lol. And given they didnt even know if the show would be picked up after making the Gathering showed commitment to the 5 year story plan right from the get go, even with uncertainties.
@@NZBigfoot You are right! I tend not to think of the original Pilot as a lot changed but it is still canon and referred to in later episodes. So, yes from the very beginning JMS had that in mind. Good catch.
I couldn't watch the first two seasons of Babylon 5 until around season 3, but I was fortunate enough to watch most of the episodes just before season 3 came on live!!! It's great to see somebody understand the brilliance of this series
Thank you for your reactions. One of the most mind shattering episodes of TV history. The War Without End, The Coming of Shadows, and The Long Twilight Struggle are some of the most anticipated episodes for fans watching reactions of Babylon 5. It's been a true joy to be a part of your journey through the series and I can't wait to continue
i dont know you personally but somehow it makes me so happy to see someone else enjoy b5 and your reactions so far have been amazing! i cant wait for the next episode! much love from germany!
I remember the first time I saw this years ago . It blew my mind when SO many previous events, visions, and threads CLICKED into place. A true triumph of long term story telling. I can only hope that if and when they do B5 again that we get the same level of forethought and planning. Its amazing they pulled it off given everything.
Babylon 5, The ultimate champions of long story arcs, where seemingly innocent occurrences in one season get revisited and revealed to have greater meaning in future seasons. An amazing show that should be brought back. Thankyou for another heart felt review
This two-part episode is one of the most amazing parts of this series but there's emphasis on "one of" here. This ride isn't over. There's more to come and it's all amazing. It's an absolute joy watching someone who enjoys the series seeing these for the first time.
The first thing I done when I got the complete dvd collection was to watch Babylon squared and these 2 episodes back to back. Great reaction, from here on in it will be a roller coaster ride, I hope you got a plethora of tissues handy 😎
Thats one of the best things about B5. You end up seeing bits and pieces of the consequences or outcomes of ones actions, before the action that initiated it! It ends up keeping you intrigued and fascinated. And in order to find out the full context of those scenes, you have to keep watching. Sometimes it takes a couple of seasons before something finally comes to fruition. Then when you finally have the full context, the light bulb in your head goes off! Sometimes the outcome is good, but quite often it is bad, unexpected, or bitter sweet!
We are 2/3 through the third of five seasons and have reached the absolute climax. This is the moment that was prepared for by the previous 2.5 seasons plus pilot.
I have been waiting SOOOO long for you to see War Without End. I knew you would "Joygasim" seeing Jeff again. We Live For The One We Die For The One, In Valens Name.
As someone who has watched these series many times from the first airing, watching your reactions to the develpoing story with such innocence, is remarkable and uplifting. Am really enjoying your tumultuous journey and look forward to continue it with you
In case you didn't put it together yet, one of those Vorlons at the end is Kosh, and it's believed the other is Ulkesh. Kosh knew Sinclair/Valen and that's the reason why Kosh was willing to show himself to Sinclair in The Gathering (note this is something JMS changed to be the case after the fact as one of his trap-doors, and if you pay attention in The Gathering in recordings of the first airings and some DVD's Kosh says nothing, but in subsequent releases and remastered versions Kosh actually says "Entil'Za Valen" just before being poisoned).
After reading some comments about O'Hares death, there is a brief interview with JMS where he talks about O'Hares death and how much he admired him and that he was a real trooper. This is on RUclips somewhere. It is only a few minutes long but it explains alot
I love seeing your reactions and remembering back to when I shared similar feelings. You have so many more surprises ahead. I look forward to re-living them through your eyes.
Man I remember watching this episode when it aired, and the final bit, the montage of scenes pointing out Jeff's fate, and that final single bell tone that just extends through the transitional scene. I dunno, that sound just felt like the crowning jewel on the entire arc. Like the final note of a song that carries out and fades into silence, the perfect capstone to the music you just heard. For me it just felt like the auditory equivalent of a master chef, placing the final piece onto a perfect dish, to complete the meal. And just kind of sitting back and admiring the work. It was SO GOOD.
I reacted the same way, just tears and excitement... and I *think* we had a 2-week break at this point so the next episode seemed so FAR. It's fascinating to watch people go through shows I love in a way so *alien* to me, the were unbingable at the time of course, and there was always a worry that the show would just get cancelled every year and just *stop*. Once you've got to the end, you should try the books as most of them are canon to the show, and a few of them reveal some super interesting stuff! You'll probably also *love* 12 Monkeys!
I think an interesting point that gets overlooked in this episode is that John and Delenn's very first kiss occurs in an non-time synchronous manner. What I mean is by the end of the episode when John is back in normal time, his first kiss with the Delenn has already occurred. Yet for Delenn, their first kiss has yet to happen. Very timey wimey, wibbly wobbly.
This is hands down one of my favorite 2 part episodes of sci-fi. It ties in so much anad lays down ground for the future episodes. This isnt spoiler as you have seen the episode but i would re-watch the first episode of b5 and and perhaps check your notes from the episode when b5 first broke away from the earth alliance with the late centauri emperor’s wife. You will understand as it has links to this too. Edit: i am glad you are enjoying B5. It is overlooked/overshadowed in my opinion by star trek especially. When I see B5 cosplayers at a con it is like christmas for me.
Although it is ultimately Delenn in the spacesuit who rescues the pinned Zathras, at the time of making Season 1 it was originally supposed to be Sinclair in the suit - that's why there was an energy discharge when he reached out and touched the Sinclair who'd come from B5 (it's that whole thing about more the same matter not being able to exist in the same place at the same time).
I have been eagerly waiting to see your reaction to this episode and was not disappointed. One of the best bits of writing, storytelling and time travel in science fiction history.
I started watching your SG1 reacts (and subscribed because of), and this episode just popped up in my feed. I wish I'd known of your channel back when you first started watching B5, but what an episode to see your reaction to this series. Working for a school, I'll get to go back and watch during our breaks and I am excited to see them. Doubt you'll see this comment, but if you've also done Farscape reactions, with the SG1 reacts included, I don't think my summer breaks will be filled with anything except your reactions to some of the best Science Fiction ever! Just went and checked... You DO have Farscape! YES!!! (I love Doctor Who as well, but I'm burnt out on Whovian reactions, sadly).
It's unbelievable how nearly every "random" advanture from the first season was a setup for the entire story. I strongly recommend you to rewatch the first season some time later. Everything will have so much more meaning and impact.
Exactly. I used to watch the series at the time, and rewatched all existing episodes before each new season. Every single time the old episodes felt different because you could e.g. see all the future references in a different light. One of the recurring thoughts I used to have when watching old seasons was: "Oh, how innocent they still are!"
JMS had a lot of influences for this show, and was pretty open about that. In this (essentially) three-parter, Joe borrowed heavily from Heinlein's concept of time travel: we went back because we always went back, and what happened always happened, because the time travel is built in to what happened. Or, as Heinlein said, "a paradox can always be paradoctored." Brilliant, tight, and amazing attention to detail. The only difference I note is that the major said Zathras was found in the conference room, when it was a tool storage area . . . But, at that point, keeping one's sanity with what was going on might have muddied the waters a bit; so I give that part a pass. And, yes, Medusa, this show will break you; but only to build you up again. It's worth it, because it was always worth it.
I wasn't aware of that, thank you for posting. I know when I first saw The Lord Of The Rings trilogy(having never read the books) I could see that was a huge influence on JMS.
IIRC, there's also a bit where in the B-squared series-3 Delen puts her hand on Jeff's arm, but in WWE, she doesn't and is wearing different clothes too.
There is a small continuity difference when Sinclair says everything happened the way he remembered. In Babylon Squared we just hear Delenn's voice (to not reveal her transformation) and her hand is seen resting on Sinclair's arm whereas in this version it isn't. I seem to recall reading that there may have been some issue with being able to match the colour and material for her dress so they decided to just not include the gesture, but this seems a bit unlikely. It's a brief shot and nobody would notice if the material of her sleeve was slightly different. Heck unless you watched the episodes back-to-back you it's highly unlikely you'd notice the change that does exist!
The conference room might have been used as workmans tool storage during that time (station wasnt fully online yet and even a nearly finished house will have toolboxes and the like in odd places) :P ... so it might not be a problem.
It is such a joy and privilege to relive those emotions again with you. I've watched the series multiple times over the years, and it still gets me every time.
Since I'm terrible at avoiding spoilers and only discovered B5 in 2020, this episode didn't hit the hardest on the first watch. It hit the hardest after I'd first seen convention videos, including of course the JMS promise panel. I'd known why O'Hare had left before, but hearing it all spelled out and seeing how wonderfully connected the cast still seemed at the reunions... This two-parter, already so pregnant with meaning that one has to take notes to get it all the first time, takes on even more weight in context. It is a testimony to second chances, to adapting to changes, to keeping your word, to not giving up, to making the hard choice. It embodies why I love B5 so much, and why it is so inspiring, through craft and soul alike, a show that is both excellent and so, so human.
I couldn't wait to see your reaction to this double episode. It's just such a brilliant piece of writing on the part of JMS once again. There are many time travel stories out there and many of them have plots full of inconsistencies, but this one is absolutely perfect! No inconsistencies, no contradictions, everything ties up so beautifully. And Sinclair being Valen! That one really floored me when I first saw it. It's just so powerful! I know that watching it was quite an emotional rollercoaster for you (as it was for me on my first watching it and still is, really) but it was well worth it, you have to admit.
If theres ever been beauty in connecting all those strands together then babylon 5 owns that honour. It is perhaps worth you seeing jm stasinskys interview when your done with the show...to understand the great difficulties that transpired with Michael o.hares tenure of the shows 1st season ...and the great care that jms gave to help him throughout his time. Getting him back for the 2 parter was heartbreaking...but satisfying..... And Thankyou....as always wonderful reactions and heartwarming understanding
My memory of seeing this episode conclude was the slow realization that we were suddenly on our own. Up to this point "prophesy" had led us -- surprisingly accurate prophesy (and now we knew why). There's no more voice from the future hinting at what was to come. What happened from here was anyone's guess. It was sobering.
This two parter ties up so many of the plot threads from the 3 seasons so far. And it was so good that Michael O’Hare was able to film this and give closure to Sinclair’s story
Your reactions are so much like my wife and I when we first saw it. Thankyou for your input, it brings back so many memories. My best is when we stopped watching it early season 2, then came across 3.09 a year later. We were both awestruck when the opening sequence said "It failed" and then watching that episode (the one before Severed Dreams), there was no way we would miss an episode ever again.. :)
I was SO looking forward to seeing your reactions to this Two-Parter for MANY reasons. You exceeded my expectations. It was a joy watching you on this. :)
And all the way back at The Gathering, when Kosh met the assassin posing as Jeff what did he say? "Entil'za Valen". Well. Dang. Coming out with it right early. Plain sight. (This was, admittedly a retcon. The line was added to the special edition of The Gathering made after season 4 when the show moved to air on TNT for the fifth season.)
Was a HUGE fan during B5's original release, some of the tightest and best sci-fi writing of all time. I just love watching your bubbling and explosion of awe and emotions, helps me relive my first time through B5.
I recently heard that the same people who did this show are doing a reboot of Babylon 5. Perhaps they will tell more of this story. Like what happened 1000 years ago.
I was a huge fan of B5 when it first aired back in the 90s. It's serialized storytelling was unique ans trend setting. There's a sci-fi series on Netflix called Dark and I suspect the creators have watched B5, because it also Involves the theme of "3" and time travel. Can't believe B5 is 30 years old. Now I feel old... 😫
THIS IS THE REACTION I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR, ever since I started watching these videos! From the beginning of these, and seeing just how much of a Sinclair fan you have become, I have been been saying "she is going to lose it on this one!" ever since your reaction to Sinclair's revealing of the Rangers to Garibaldi. Your reaction did not disappoint, and I even felt the chills again upon the revelation of Sinclair becoming Valen. And though this circle is closed, if you'll pardon the expression, there is still so much more of the story yet to come! Also, now that you've passed this point, when and if you get a moment, check out JMS and his "promise panel." No spoilers, but a very heartfelt story of how Michael O'Hare's story unfolded. It will certainly change your perspective on his performance. Also a little bit of insight on the others that have gone "beyond the rim." Until next time!
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Thanks!
I don't spoiler anything but you will break several times more.
Overall it's a fantastic show.
This is/was me - upon the first showing of 'War Without End: Part Two' - punching the air from the past with a "YES!" Jeff IS/WAS Valen!
And so it begins. Wise, though.
Hello Medusa. 😊 Just to help prepare you for what's ahead - Yes.... you will cry MANY more times, before this universe is finished with you...
But, you wouldn't trade that in for ANYTHING in the world!
Be seeing you Medusa in that place, where No Shadows Fall..... 😉❤
"Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski revealed after O'Hare's death, that the actor had suffered from severe mental illness.[42][43][44] During the filming of the first season of Babylon 5, O'Hare began having paranoid delusions, and halfway through, his hallucinations worsened. It became increasingly difficult for O'Hare to continue working, his behavior was becoming increasingly erratic, and he was often at odds with his colleagues. Straczynski offered to suspend production for several months to accommodate treatment; however O'Hare feared that such a hiatus would put the series at risk, and he didn't want to jeopardize others' jobs. Straczynski agreed to keep O'Hare's condition secret to protect his career, and O'Hare agreed to complete the first season, but would be written out of the second season so that he could seek treatment. His departure from the cast was announced without explanation, except that it was mutual and amicable.[45][46]
His treatments were only partially successful. He reappeared in a cameo appearance early in season two ("The Coming of Shadows") and returned in season three for a two-part episode ("War Without End") which closed his character's story arc. At that time, Straczynski promised O'Hare to keep his condition secret "to my grave". O'Hare told him to instead "keep the secret to my grave", arguing that fans deserved to eventually learn the real reason for his departure, and that his experience could raise awareness and understanding for people suffering from mental illness"
The cameo in season two was actually filmed towards the end of season one when O’Hare decided to leave. JMS kept it in his back pocket to drop in at the right moment.
Small side note, O'Hare was visiting his father as I recall andhe had to stop by a bank to get some money out, several years I think after the run of B5 and he went up to a teller and the guy behind the glass saw O'Hare trying to find his ID, and he said 'That won't be necessary, Commander.'
Its one of the bright spots that O'Hare would tell before he passed. His work touched people and they remember. ...and that memory endures til we all return to the place where no shadows fall.
One of the great things about B5 cast and creators where friends and protected and took care of each other. One of the reasons the chemestry was so great. Even walter konig who was initialy asked for the role of sinclair who had a heart atack before filming they wanted to suspend the filming till he recoverd but konig said to go ahead and was offered the role of bester as recurant character.
A great bunch of people that realy enjoyed and stood behind the creators. ashame Crusade was cut short. as it would have been a great series like B5.
He was a truly lovely bloke, I had the good fortune to meet him a couple of times at conventions, and he was so good and kind to people, he'd chat so long he'd miss signings.
@@TheMsLourdes Now that is simply beautiful. I had never heard that story before. Thank you. 🙂
This Episode alone is the reason why B5 is one of the best Sci-Fi shows ever.
The best Florian Hoppe, the best!
@@jjc5407 For me personally, it is. ;)
@@florianhoppe4159 it doesn't get nearly the recognition it deserves does it?
I've heard this episode was originally meant to be the last episode of the whole series, before O'Hara had to leave the show. But after he left it of course couldn't really work but JMS re-worked it beautifully.
@@jjc5407 hear hear!
I remember watching this "live" when it was broadcasted originally. So much excitement & speculation on those early BBS-boards. It is so rare that one's incredibly high expectations are met, but B5 did it constantly. Nowadays it's always fun to watch new people experience Babylon 5 for the first time - so thank you 'dusa for allowing us old farts to live out one more "moment of perfect beauty".
I read back when this season was first on TV that this two-parter was previewed during a convention weekend. According to the article, the audience was both mesmerized and devastated at the end of it, with a lot of people crying or embracing each other after that final shot. I wish I could've been there.
Almost 30 yrs later it still has the same impact on this old fart. And its sooo much fun watching a new fan's mind get blown 😁
the same can only agree100%
This one has one of my favourite Zathras lines - "You are finite. Zathras is finite. This.....is wrong tool"
No... no... never use this...
I paraphrase that ALL the time lol
@@missyprime8198 I directly quote this all the time. I am a compsci major ;)
I believe much of Zathras' dialogue was ad-libbed, that certainly was.
@@zac3278 Nothing in B5 was adlibbed. It was the cardinal rule on set.
This two-parter is testament to how insanely well-thought out this show is, so much groundwork has been laid from all the way back in S01.
Except for the fact that if the original plan had gone ahead B4 would have moved forward in time, rather than backwards. The reason that War Without End exists is down to Michael O'Hare's mental health problems. JMS is on record as saying that B5 is the only show he's ever worked on where each crisis somehow managed to leave the show in better condition than it was before, and expanded the show's universe.
yeah i'd argue it's actually a three parter that took years to make
@@djashley2002 but it was so well thought out jms wrote several failsafes. This was one of them.
@@djashley2002 I did not know that, interesting!
@@djashley2002 War Without End is amazing that way. It's like an ice skater tripped and managed to do a backflip into a triple axle, all while his skates are crumbling. It's an unbelievable achievement and a real testament to JMS's writing chops...* chef's kiss *
Neroon: You talk like a Minbari, Commander.
Jeff: I think you'll find that Minbari just talk like me.
It just blew my mind when I first realized that it was indeed the other way around.
One small detail no one yet mentioned: the history of the Swedish meatballs is also explained in this episode. It was Sinclair's favourite food and going back in time he spread the recipe among the intelligent races, so for example Narns also have this meal.
Mind....blown!!!
Love that detail
And the Narns invented narn bread
I always knew the Vorlons had something to do with that!!!!!
As G'Kar said, 'Its a secret that will probably drive one mad if they ever found the answer.' So I'm just gonna say, nice thinking, and go make some Breen.
Can't express how much joy these reactions bring. Like watching the show for the first time all over again. This two parter is amazing, glad to see you appreciating it!
Indeed. I'm just as riveted by her reaction videos as I am by the show. It's like discovering it all over again.
THIS ist how you do a time travel story. I don't think I've ever seen another one on this level.
(And after this episode, "in Valen's Name" hits differently. Imagine knowing that for a thousand years, your whole (adopted) race is saying this...)
We were frequently after saying By Jeff, and In Jeff's name ;) By Jeff I think we've got it ;) and my personal favorite transposition "You will stand aside in his name and in mine or in Jeff's name I will tear this ship apart with my bare hands until I find them."
...and after this episode it still work's equally as threateningly.
Isil Za Sinclair. :)
Dark on Netflix is comparable but that's about it
the line: "i am called valen." always killed me.
One of my all time favourite episodes, it rocked EVERYONES socks back in the day, I watched B5 on first broadcast every episode as it came out, the 90's was a great time for tv!! I actually met Michael O Hare, he was in Australia at a convention and he signed my copy of "To dream in the city of sorrows" If you havent read it, you really should
When the show was first telecast, there was no affiliate in our area. So someone with a satellite dish would tape the download, and a week later on a late Wednesday afternoon we'd gather at the local comic book shop which had a big screen TV and watch it standing up for an hour in place.
You'd think standing for an hour in a big group for a TV show would be silly -- but we never minded. JMS always delivered.
Eventually, I think around or in the middle of Season 4, a local station bought the show to show Sunday night after the late news, and the Wednesday gatherings stopped out of respect that someone local was finally carrying the show.
But I never forgot the camaraderie, and the feeling we were seeing something special grow and blossom, like a beautiful flower growing in a crack in the asphalt of a parking lot, and fighting to stay alive in an oppressive and toxic environment that was syndication and Hollywood in general. I'm sure the original Trekkers felt similarly.
So, I echo Delenn, cherish it. Because with all the bafflegab about special effects and CGI, it's still great storytelling that wins the day, and acting up to the task of portraying that story.
I want to gently hug you, medusa, and dry those tears -- as a way of saying thank you for letting me see the series again through your eyes. And I think JMS would be touched to see your reaction -- because it would be a reminder that he did it right, he made someone feel deeply enough to cry about these imaginary people made real in your mind. And your reaction is high praise, maybe even more now, than then, with all the cynicism and crap of recent years.
Be well. See ya in the next episode.
Almost all of my friends and family who are fans of the show were introduced to it by way of the extensive collection of VHS tapes I recorded as it was originally airing. I like to refer to it as "The best show on TV that nobody watched..."
Heh... I am totally going to steal 'Bafflegab' for my own lexicon.
What an amazing send off for Michael O' Hare. It still makes the hairs on the back of my neck not only stand up but have a little dance.
You have to give Michael O'Hare a lot of credit. This isn't a spoiler since you've gotten this far, but there wasn't originally a Sheridan character in the plans for Babylon 5. As you might have heard Michael suffered from paranoid delusions during Season 1 and worked with JMS to be written off without endangering the show. He then came back to wrap up Jeff's story arc which JMS slightly altered originally Jeff was Valen reborn not actually Valen, but JMS figured out a way to give the character closure with was already written.
So a standing around of applause for Michael O'Hare a great commander on B5 and better person in real life who put his co-workers and fans 1st even when dealing with unimaginable personal demons.
RIP Michael O'Hare (1952-2012) one of the sadly many cast members this show has lost may they all rest where no shadows fall.
Yes RIP Michael, Andreas, Stephen, Richard, Jeff, Jerry and Mira. May they all have found happiness beyond The Rim.
I wonder -- what was the original plan? I'd assumed JMS *always* intended for Sinclair to become Valen; so presumbly, he was supposed to do a lot of the things that Sheridan did in the actual series (investigating Clark's rise to power, breaking away from Earth, creating the connection with the Rangers, etc.), and then keep it up until they reached the equivalent of "War Without End", which would still conclude with him going back in time and becoming Valen. Question is, who would have taken control of Babylon 5 once he was gone?
@@ugolombJMS published the original 5 year arc in a special Vol 15 of his script books from the series. The G'Kar/London story is the pretty much the same, while Sinclair/Deleen is similar to Sheridan/Deleen in some ways but largely different. B5 is actually destroyed in season 5, and B4 has a larger role thereafter
I love seeing the look on your face when all the Tetris pieces come together and disappear, revealing the truth.
And yes, that was Delenn back in Babylon Squared. That's why we couldn't see who Jeff was talking to, because that would have revealed Delenn's transformation.
"Treasure the moments you have, savour them for as long as you can, for they'll never come back again." These wise words from Delenn in this episode sum up watching Babylon 5. You can re-watch it and enjoy it, but you'll never experience it in the same way. So treasure these moments and savour them Medusa. I hope the memories of the emotions you feel remain with you for a long, long time.
I don't know about you but even knowing the story, experiencing it so many times, I still get swept up with powerful emotions on rewatches.
@@walterbishop1697 indeed, but it's not the same as being blown away that first time is it? The power of the unexpected twists and turns, the payoffs for all the set ups laid so far in advance, witnessing the evolution of the characters and their relationships without knowing about them in advance, the unexpected revelations - the mind blowing, jaw dropping brilliance of these things can simply never be replicated a second time.
It's quite simply the best written TV show of all time, which is why it's so eminently rewatchable, and it's difficult to fathom why it doesn't get anything like the recognition it deserves. I can only assume it's because it's 'science fiction' and too many people can't see beyond that, but the influence it had on the evolution of US TV is unquestionable. Prior to B5 series were all episodic. JMS's story and character arcs revolutionised the industry. His genius deserves far greater recognition than it gets.
@@walterbishop1697 Me too.
I remember the first time after I saw this episode, after that final scene, I just walked around my house in a daze for about half an hour. I was so stunned and blown away by what JMS had just done. I couldn't do anything else. I just had to absorb it.
The way this double parter links to Babylon Squared is a thing of mastery. When you've done with the show, it's worth going back to just watch those three in order. Not sure if you picked it up at the time but there was a brief mention of Zathras on Epsilon 3 in passing by Draal in one of the three big episodes (S3E8-10 if I recall) which was a really neat little bit of set up.
There is so much of this pair of episodes to love, like the subversion of Londo's dream about dying with G'Kar, and now it means something very different to the way it read in season 1, and then you get the pay off of Vir walking in which pays off the prophecy that he'd be the emperor after Londo (though at the time they speculated about the order of who'd be first). It pays off mentions of Valen that go back to Passing Through Gethsemene. You also get the sheer body horror of the keepers because Babylon 5 just loves the nightmare fuel antagonists!
Really glad that you enjoyed this episode, it was sort of promised to Michael O'Hare when he was dropped from the show for mental health reasons that if JMS could, he'd bring him back to close off the character's arc, and they did just enough little bits in between to keep it going like having him head up the rangers. In part I'd love to know what the original plan was, but I'm so happy with what it ended up being. As for this show breaking you? It's part of the skill of the writinng - go back to season 1 and you'd be shocked to think you'd care much about G'Kar dying, but here we are...
The original plan is out there on the internet if you really want to know.
Along with how thing's kept changing as different challenges came up (characters leaving, potentially not getting a fifth season, getting a fifth season & a spin off show).
It's impressive the juggling act performed by JMS and a minor miracle this 2 parter in particular works so well.
This story (the other half of Babylon Squared) was originally meant to be at the end of Season 5 back when Jeff was still the main character (and the ultimate destination of Babylon 4 / Jeff being Valen was different) but instead this story is effectively now a pivot from the original arc (with up to this point only minor tweaks along the way), to the new (with much larger changes) - it also "locks in" certain story elements (with the flashes forward - that unfortunately we only got in Book form - some of that was originally to have played out in their proper context on TV).
Look up Babylon Prime - very interesting reading & makes me wonder if JMS manages to get a reboot show off the ground which story he would be adapting / what changes he might walk back from what we got first time round.
Agreed 100%! Do a search for "Babylon prime original ending b5" and you can find a description of the original plan. Frankly I highly prefer the ending we got, and am still just gobsmacked at how well he was able to stitch it all together. Truly a master of his craft.
I think the mention of Zathras was in 'The Coming of Shadows', and yes, she did pick it up.
JMS broke your heart - again, but I think it is in a good way. Superb story telling.
"Cannot run out of time! There is infinite time. You are finite - Zathras is finite ... This - is wrong tool." Zathras is so much fun, yet essential.
"The One who was, The One who is, and The One who will be" I love that one.
Yes, this looks like goodbye to Jeff Sinclair ... but wait, there is more ...
"I am called Valen - and we have much work ahead of us".Sinclair becoming Valen is perfect, even if it was not originally planned in the beginning of season 1. This is probably the best JMS' "trap door" for any character in B5.
This shows the genius of JMS' story telling. The wonderful combination of Babylon Squared and this one is the best time travel story I have seen, essentially consistent and everything. I love it.
This is the fulfilment of Michael O'Hare'/Jeffrey Sinclair arc, and it is beautifully done.
Sinclair as Valen may well have been planned from the beginning, but not necessarily how it happened here. When Kosh first arrives on Babylon 5 and thinks he is meeting Sinclair, Kosh addresses him as "Entelzan Valen"... probably mispelled that first word.
@@daviddalke926 Holy crap!
@@daviddalke926 not exactly. That line was dubbed into the Special Edition of The Gathering, a re-edited cut made as the series was picked up for broadcast on TNT Network following the approval of the 5th season. As the original version of the pilot aired almost a full year before the first season premiered, certain changes had to be made to bring it up to speed...
I agree, and they want to re-boot the series because ........?????? Why? If it ain't broke, why fix it?
From what I understand this one was actually not a JMS "trap door" because it was to be the ending of the orginal 5 year plan with Sinclair as the commander. So it kinda explains why War Without End feels so epic cause it could have been the Babylon 5 series finale!
The level of carefully planned and perfectly executed GENUINE science-fiction story telling going on here is truly extraordinary. It wasn't enough to have the great world-building and characters you cared about, you have mind-blowing over-arcing plotting as well.
I think Bruce Boxleitner put it best in one of his interviews: "Lighting in a bottle." I agree with him it's unlikely to be able to make that catch again.
This is an episode with no comparison born out of the imagination of an incredible writer and storyteller. To be honest, I don't know if there has ever been as many temporal references in all directions in television ever. Just wow!
This episode broke me because of Londo. I already worked out most of this two parter but seeing Londo so broken was just heart wrenching.
I find this double episode from season 3 that ties in with a season 1 episode the best to date of any tv show or film that deals with a time travel scenario. this is the main reason why JMS (THE GREAT MAKER) is a writing legend and why all of us die hard Babylon 5 fans eagerly await the propsed reboot in the near future
I'm I die hard Babylon 5 fan but I'm not eagerly awaiting the proposed reboot. Why attempt to remake virtual perfection? It's like Michelangelo knocking on the door of the Sistine Chapel 30 years after completing his masterpiece and saying "I've just come to repaint the ceiling."
I'd love another tale set in the B5 universe or something similarly constructed by JMS but completely separate, but not another version of the greatest TV show of all time. A reboot of Crusade would have been a great idea a few years ago, but the key actors would be too old now even if you could bring them back together and of course further appearances by many of our favourite B5 characters would no longer be possible. That show had great potential and it's such a shame the executives ruined it for us all.
@@jjc5407 I completely agree. I think behind the scenes there's one or two of us in a position of authority, a ranger or two if you will, secretly putting the kaibosh on reboots but always making sure there's a re-release, an update to the graphics, cleaning of the film, putting it to streaming and keeping perfect preservation. We stand on the bridge so that no one may pass, we live for the one, we die for the one.
@@jjc5407 Given what he's achieved, and the fact that he's had 30 years to further his writing skills and to ponder the B5 characters and universe, I for one can't wait to see what he's planning next.
@@jjc5407 JMS has already said (repeatedly) that the reboot won't be the same story. You can't step into the same river twice.
@@StockportJambo I understand that, but it's still going to be Babylon 5 with, at the very least, a character called John Sheridan. I just don't see the point of that. I'd love to see a similarly complex 5 year story from JMS but just not an alternate version of Babylon 5.
"In Valen's Name"
Takes on a whole new meaning now.
The business with "The One" is a bit of a patch job after Michael O'Hare's unexpected departure, but this is a great two-parter, nonetheless. We see two payoffs for Londo: the dream of his death by G'kar's hands comes true, and the same time, he redeems himself by taking the final chance he was given by Morella.
Londo is truly the most tragic character of the show.
Always a pleasure to see your reactions to this wonderful series. Fun fact: The spacesuits used in this episode were originally props made for Stanley Kubrick's 1968 sci-fi epic "2001: A Space Odyssey". They were spray-painted blue for B5.
This episode showed me how/why JMS is an epic storyteller. And how much of a wonderful human being he really is.
Closing Jeff's story arc as Valen told me that JMS and O'Hare were good friends. But JMS still had a story to tell.
Until this show, no one had done an interconnected seasonal story arc much less a series story arc. And 'back doors' were unheard of. Most characters that left shows were written off or just barely mentioned.
Thus, in my mind, JMS is the best writer of the '90's. Ending a story arc and foreshadowing galore! That SOB could really tell a story!!!
As always, love your reactions ❤️
I'm starting to really fall in love with these reaction videos from her. However, the one thing that she doesn't realize and really can't realize, is what it was like back in the 90s for us to watch it the first time. The endless reruns, the not knowing whether the show was going to be cancelled, and the waiting for 2 years to see what a Vorlon looked like or to see episodes like this that resolve story arcs from the first season. That was groundbreaking. I look forward to her future reactions...
You are the first reactor that brings me to tears.
Babylon 5 is one of the finest pieces of television drama anywhere. It's more than sci fi. It's art, it's theatre. It's Oscar, Emmy, Bafta worthy theatre.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Babylon Squared and War Without End. Are probably; in my opinion, the best time travel stories ever seen on screen.
Hugs from Scotland!
This story was just such an incredible achievement, given how many behind-the-scenes shakeups there were between "Babylon Squared" and this. Like you, I love Sinclair, and so I'm so glad that the show got the chance to wrap up his story in a satisfying way, and make him just as important to the history of the universe as Sheridan, even if we didn't see his role in the last Shadow War.
Plot hole mentioned, if you don't want to know then please don't click to see more!
If mods decide to not approve this I won't be upset or offended, it's all good
It still amazes me to this day how well JMS laid the foundations for this 3yrs earlier. Michael's mental health struggles caused JMS to make some big changes to his plans but he made sure to leave the door open for when Michael was well enough to return & I love JMS for everything he did to try to help Michael.
Time travel is often flubbed in sci fi but JMS wrote this masterfully.
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There is one plot inconsistency with events set in Babylon Squared & War Without End.
In Babylon Squared the station Commander said they were in the conference room, there was a flash & then Zathras appeared (I love Zathras), as we saw here he was found searching for tools. I handwave it away cause "Timey wimey, wibble wobbly".
Maybe time & events can be changed in small ways providing the over all outcome is the same.
Also, someone in costumes didn't know they'd revisit B4 in a time loop. When the time came they'd lost a few costume pieces & couldn't get the right materials to match what was used in Season 1.
There are two costume hiccups, one is obvious and one is so tiny that even if looking you'll probably not see but if I tell you you'll never unsee it.
I just know that if I didn't mention it in passing then someone may blurt it out, please don't.
The advantage of having a known overall story arc is that it makes time travel stories make sense. Even if they have to be adjusted for real world circumstances.
Which explains Q being powerless two years from now #Picard
The best tv series about time travel I have ever seen is 12 Monkeys. Absolute genius, with almost everything interconnected with no wasted scenes at all. And I always thought that War Without End is a kind of proof of concept for long arc time travel stories that reaches its perfection in 12 Monkeys. Incidentally, the showrunner for 12 Monkeys is doing season 2 of Picard, a show I would never normally watch, but Terry Matalas is too awesome to ignore.
Back in the 90s, I ate, slept and breathed Babylon 5. I was completely obsessed. It's so wonderful to see it again through your eyes, feeling all for the first time again. Thank you.
This show wasn't written to break you Medusa, it was made to break all of us and make us think about everything. There are so many real world parallels in this show, more so now than when it was first broadcast.
Hope you enjoy the rest of the series as much as you have the episodes viewed so far!
I'm sure for many of us this was 'The One' which cemented forever Babylon 5's place at the apex of TV storytelling, especially with such well-laid-out and intricate plots and histories all coming to their rightful culmination.
The story of Valen has thus come full-circle; but as always, will reverberate throughout the rest of the story yet to come... This two-parter was effectively one of the massive corkscrews on the rollercoaster that B5 continues to be! Hope you continue to enjoy the ride, Medusa...
Sadly the guy who played Jeff wasn’t well, that’s the reason he left. He had schizophrenia . Their two parter was hard enough for him. The creator of the show kept it secret until he passed away.
Delusional Paranoia.
You have just crossed the half way point on your journey through B5 and I was reminded of:
The Gathering: Kosh to Sinclair upon meeting, "Entilzah Valen!". Right there in plain sight... JMS is brilliant! I don't know a single person who catches that on the first watch through or even the 2nd though it's so in your face. I think I did finally on my 3rd time. It's even more amazing that this was not exactly the original outline, because Michael O'hare's departure after season 1 was not planned and Sheridan was(simplistically put) a "trapdoor" character/plot so to speak. Yet this is seamless and the heart of the entire series. It arguably was better this way and really enriched all the characters, especially Sinclair. Beauty out of tragedy. RIP Michael O'hare (and to all the rest who have gone beyond the rim.) If JMS wasn't show running the coming reimage/reboot etc.well no way in Zahadum would I bother.
The real hero in this episode is one no one thinks of.
Think of this, the system to bring B4 back to the past isn't fully automatic. But Sinclair is in a cocoon. So, who's piloting B4 back?
That's right, Zathras.
My wife and I watched this series when it originally aired. It is one of our favorite sci-fi shows (my real favorite is the reimagined Battlestar Galactica). Watching your reactions is so entertaining! You have really gotten into the show. So glad I found your vlog! Keep up the good work!
A hell of a two-part episode that paid off and closed some threads in the story while also presenting possibilities for the future. I love your reactions and patiently (barely) await the rest of the series. You really should do an entire series re-watch for yourself in the next few years. But give it some time in between.
This was just so very well done- tying everything up so well!
Although it was severe illness that meant Michael O'Hare couldn't continue with B5, it was so satisfying to see Sinclair's story given a fitting (and epic!) ending: becoming the most revered Minbari in history & defeating the shadows enough 1000 years in B5s past to ensure a fighting chance for Sheridan this time around! -
given how long the Vorlons have been around, I like to think 1 of the ones on B4 was Kosh & he somehow knew who/what Valen was really & helped guide him - giving the Vorlon his interest in the human race, B5 & ultimately in Sheridan!
Oh: and congratulations on 1000 uploads!!- look forward to many, many more! 😊
I was so eager to see you react to this one, as a fellow Sinclair lover.
If you need a little more Jeff, I highly recommend the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" by Kathryn M. Drennan -- J. Michael Straczynski's now-ex-wife. It covers what Jeff is up to after he leaves B5, and that's really all I want to say about it at this point other than JMS says it's 100% canon, and it's AMAZING.
Came here to say this!
Already ordering this book now I know it exists.
Great minds think alike.
I just made that book recommendation myself. Of all of the B5 books this one is the best I've read so far. I Still haven't read book 3 of the Psi corp trilogy, the Technomage books or the Centauri trilogy of books.
They're hard to track down. Fortunately To dream in the city of sorrow is fairly easy to track down & I read it a couple of times each year
Also came to say the same @medusacascade should definitely read it.
Book 1 of the technomage trilogy I like a lot, the other two aren’t as good. The other canon book that has not yet been mentioned is _The Shadow Within_ which I think is my favorite of the canon books. That can be read after S3, _To Dream_ can be read now. It’s probably best to do the trilogies after you finish the series.
The one you might be most interested in though is the Legions of Fire trilogy which is kinda like another season of the show.
"Nothing's the same anymore" - Sinclair. Here we go again.
Sinclair + Delenn + Sheridan. The Holy Trinity.
Great resolution to Sinclair's story. I love how the seeds for it were planted from the beginning.
If you watch the pilot, Kosh addresses the imposter who wants to kill him, as "Entil'Zha Valen". So, strictly speaking, this wasn't a revelation because if you watched carefully, you could have known it right from the beginning. 😂
@@Nikioko just for clarification Kosh did not say that in the original broadcast. It was added in the tbs special edition.
Jeff forever won me over when his introduction of the dominant Earth religion to The Ambassadors, and that introduction was of one representative of every religion that spans the world.
The inclusiveness and respect of every individual's right to choose what navigation inspires their soul's journey.
I still missed Jeff but his story was always that story.
What would Garibaldi think if he heard a voice over the radio that said "Watch your back." and that voice was the voice of the man sitting next to him.
Again *all the hugs* xD you're lovely and I'm glad you're loving this show. It's great. J. Michael Straczynski is an amazing writer and it's the reason he's been been brought in to write for so many things.
Much love to you ❤️
This is how you treat fans and fan favourites: with respect.
While I see the value in creating conflict between the old and the new, I so much prefer this way of handling things to the wanton trashing of old characters to make new soulless characters look better that we so often see these days.
Here, instead of deconstructing everything, both members of The Church of Sinclair and Army of Sheridan Lovers get to see a mutual, heartfelt and thematically fitting respect between The One Who Was and The One Who Will Be. Sinclair nodding in acceptance when he sees John and Delenn feels both so good and so right.
One of the greatest advantages of having the entire series mapped out in advance was their ability to film scenes that would only make sense in future seasons and episodes. It's like the entire series was one huge movie that pays off on early hints in the third act. Masterful work, if you ask me.
This is the reason why the Triluminari lit up when it was brought Infront of Geoff when he was brought aboard the Minbari cruiser during the battle of the line. Because it recognises him from when he used it to change himself into a Minbari a thousand years earlier.
had those emotional twisters in the past too when i was watching this show. whats even more impressive is that you can relive these emotions again when re-watching the series . its testament to the show's production and story. Medusa dont stop watching there are more nuggets of stories ahead :D
Given your heartfelt reactions to this show, and the character of Jeffrey Sinclair, I would highly recommend the book *Babylon 5: To Dream in the City of Sorrows* by _Kathryn M. Drennan.ⁿ_ It's a very easy read. You can find the paperback online for less than $10. It fills in some of Jeff's time on Minbar.
After that, I also recommend *The Shadow Within* by _Jeanne Cavelos.ⁿ_ Given where you are on patreon, you can start reading it anytime.
Along with a few others (the _Psi Corps, Techno Mage_ and _Centauri_ trilogies), these two books are canon, according to JMS. After all _Kathryn M. Drennan_ was his wife at the time hers was written.
Be well.
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ⁿ ─ Story outline by *JMS*
I highly suggest NOT reading The Shadown Within just yet. It WILL spoil things revealed in later seasons.
To Dream in the City of Sorrows takes you up to this episode so it is fine to read now. jms said that Kathryn Drennan had unprecedented access, so she could make the book 100% canon. Since she was married to jms at the time, that makes sense. ;)
The Centauri trilogy by Peter David fills in more for Londo and Vir, the show does a lot, but MUST be read after you have seen the whole series. It WILL spoil things. Same with the Psi-Corp and Technomage triologies. You want to watch Crusade as well for those.
Many of the early B5 novels were written during production of seasons 1 and 2 and are not canon due to the conflicts they created with later episodes. The books mentioned in this thread, however, ARE considered Canon , but to avoid any spoilers should be read AFTER watching the rest of the show.
My favorite scene of all of Babylon 5 is the Zathras speech about everything is three, it seems you were touched as well by this scene. Encompasses B5 in one beautiful written and acted scene!
When you consider that the foreshadowing with the Soul Hunter is from Season 1 Ep. 2 and 60+ episodes later it comes to pass it is rather remarkable. Then when you consider that with hundreds of millions of dollars at their disposal Disney couldn't write 3 episodes of a Star Wars trilogy before filming episode 7 it is even more remarkable what JMS was able to produce. He once noted that early in Season one the network sat him down to discuss notes. They wanted to change several characters and create some couples to introduce some "drama.' Straczynski told how he listened very carefully and then went through the _5 year arc_ for each of the characters they wanted to change and explained how their suggestions would negatively impact what he had planned for each character *two or three seasons* later. He said after that meeting he never got any more "notes" from the network.
The foreshadowing is actually earlier... right in the Pilot movie, the Minbari spy/assasin tells him he has a hole in his mind, that directly goes to the fact he had missing time when he was taken and tested by the grey council, which is where they found the triluminary reacted to him which probably filled in a few of their myths from Valens time, which is why he was released, and the War stopped AND why the Minbari stuck so much effort into funding the Babylon projects (gotta remember the Grey Council knew about Babylon 4 and that something time travel wise was going on they had to ensure it happened etc)...
So yeah, the climax of the Gathering basically set the ball rolling with the foreshadowing lol. And given they didnt even know if the show would be picked up after making the Gathering showed commitment to the 5 year story plan right from the get go, even with uncertainties.
@@NZBigfoot You are right! I tend not to think of the original Pilot as a lot changed but it is still canon and referred to in later episodes. So, yes from the very beginning JMS had that in mind. Good catch.
I couldn't watch the first two seasons of Babylon 5 until around season 3, but I was fortunate enough to watch most of the episodes just before season 3 came on live!!!
It's great to see somebody understand the brilliance of this series
Thank you for your reactions. One of the most mind shattering episodes of TV history. The War Without End, The Coming of Shadows, and The Long Twilight Struggle are some of the most anticipated episodes for fans watching reactions of Babylon 5. It's been a true joy to be a part of your journey through the series and I can't wait to continue
i dont know you personally but somehow it makes me so happy to see someone else enjoy b5 and your reactions so far have been amazing! i cant wait for the next episode! much love from germany!
I remember the first time I saw this years ago . It blew my mind when SO many previous events, visions, and threads CLICKED into place. A true triumph of long term story telling. I can only hope that if and when they do B5 again that we get the same level of forethought and planning. Its amazing they pulled it off given everything.
Babylon 5, The ultimate champions of long story arcs, where seemingly innocent occurrences in one season get revisited and revealed to have greater meaning in future seasons. An amazing show that should be brought back. Thankyou for another heart felt review
This two-part episode is one of the most amazing parts of this series but there's emphasis on "one of" here. This ride isn't over. There's more to come and it's all amazing.
It's an absolute joy watching someone who enjoys the series seeing these for the first time.
The first thing I done when I got the complete dvd collection was to watch Babylon squared and these 2 episodes back to back. Great reaction, from here on in it will be a roller coaster ride, I hope you got a plethora of tissues handy 😎
Thats one of the best things about B5. You end up seeing bits and pieces of the consequences or outcomes of ones actions, before the action that initiated it! It ends up keeping you intrigued and fascinated. And in order to find out the full context of those scenes, you have to keep watching. Sometimes it takes a couple of seasons before something finally comes to fruition. Then when you finally have the full context, the light bulb in your head goes off! Sometimes the outcome is good, but quite often it is bad, unexpected, or bitter sweet!
We are 2/3 through the third of five seasons and have reached the absolute climax. This is the moment that was prepared for by the previous 2.5 seasons plus pilot.
I have been waiting SOOOO long for you to see War Without End. I knew you would "Joygasim" seeing Jeff again.
We Live For The One We Die For The One,
In Valens Name.
As someone who has watched these series many times from the first airing, watching your reactions to the develpoing story with such innocence, is remarkable and uplifting. Am really enjoying your tumultuous journey and look forward to continue it with you
In case you didn't put it together yet, one of those Vorlons at the end is Kosh, and it's believed the other is Ulkesh. Kosh knew Sinclair/Valen and that's the reason why Kosh was willing to show himself to Sinclair in The Gathering (note this is something JMS changed to be the case after the fact as one of his trap-doors, and if you pay attention in The Gathering in recordings of the first airings and some DVD's Kosh says nothing, but in subsequent releases and remastered versions Kosh actually says "Entil'Za Valen" just before being poisoned).
After reading some comments about O'Hares death, there is a brief interview with JMS where he talks about O'Hares death and how much he admired him and that he was a real trooper. This is on RUclips somewhere. It is only a few minutes long but it explains alot
I love seeing your reactions and remembering back to when I shared similar feelings. You have so many more surprises ahead. I look forward to re-living them through your eyes.
Man I remember watching this episode when it aired, and the final bit, the montage of scenes pointing out Jeff's fate, and that final single bell tone that just extends through the transitional scene. I dunno, that sound just felt like the crowning jewel on the entire arc. Like the final note of a song that carries out and fades into silence, the perfect capstone to the music you just heard. For me it just felt like the auditory equivalent of a master chef, placing the final piece onto a perfect dish, to complete the meal. And just kind of sitting back and admiring the work. It was SO GOOD.
I reacted the same way, just tears and excitement... and I *think* we had a 2-week break at this point so the next episode seemed so FAR.
It's fascinating to watch people go through shows I love in a way so *alien* to me, the were unbingable at the time of course, and there was always a worry that the show would just get cancelled every year and just *stop*.
Once you've got to the end, you should try the books as most of them are canon to the show, and a few of them reveal some super interesting stuff!
You'll probably also *love* 12 Monkeys!
I think an interesting point that gets overlooked in this episode is that John and Delenn's very first kiss occurs in an non-time synchronous manner. What I mean is by the end of the episode when John is back in normal time, his first kiss with the Delenn has already occurred. Yet for Delenn, their first kiss has yet to happen. Very timey wimey, wibbly wobbly.
I love the way you don't blink, that's exactly how I was watching these for the first time in the mid to late 90s :D
This is hands down one of my favorite 2 part episodes of sci-fi. It ties in so much anad lays down ground for the future episodes.
This isnt spoiler as you have seen the episode but i would re-watch the first episode of b5 and and perhaps check your notes from the episode when b5 first broke away from the earth alliance with the late centauri emperor’s wife. You will understand as it has links to this too.
Edit: i am glad you are enjoying B5. It is overlooked/overshadowed in my opinion by star trek especially. When I see B5 cosplayers at a con it is like christmas for me.
Although it is ultimately Delenn in the spacesuit who rescues the pinned Zathras, at the time of making Season 1 it was originally supposed to be Sinclair in the suit - that's why there was an energy discharge when he reached out and touched the Sinclair who'd come from B5 (it's that whole thing about more the same matter not being able to exist in the same place at the same time).
I have been eagerly waiting to see your reaction to this episode and was not disappointed. One of the best bits of writing, storytelling and time travel in science fiction history.
I started watching your SG1 reacts (and subscribed because of), and this episode just popped up in my feed. I wish I'd known of your channel back when you first started watching B5, but what an episode to see your reaction to this series. Working for a school, I'll get to go back and watch during our breaks and I am excited to see them. Doubt you'll see this comment, but if you've also done Farscape reactions, with the SG1 reacts included, I don't think my summer breaks will be filled with anything except your reactions to some of the best Science Fiction ever!
Just went and checked... You DO have Farscape! YES!!! (I love Doctor Who as well, but I'm burnt out on Whovian reactions, sadly).
It's unbelievable how nearly every "random" advanture from the first season was a setup for the entire story. I strongly recommend you to rewatch the first season some time later. Everything will have so much more meaning and impact.
Exactly.
I used to watch the series at the time, and rewatched all existing episodes before each new season. Every single time the old episodes felt different because you could e.g. see all the future references in a different light. One of the recurring thoughts I used to have when watching old seasons was: "Oh, how innocent they still are!"
Not just the first season, watch the entire show from the beginning again. It's such a good show that even the tiny details have meaning throughout.
JMS had a lot of influences for this show, and was pretty open about that. In this (essentially) three-parter, Joe borrowed heavily from Heinlein's concept of time travel: we went back because we always went back, and what happened always happened, because the time travel is built in to what happened. Or, as Heinlein said, "a paradox can always be paradoctored." Brilliant, tight, and amazing attention to detail. The only difference I note is that the major said Zathras was found in the conference room, when it was a tool storage area . . . But, at that point, keeping one's sanity with what was going on might have muddied the waters a bit; so I give that part a pass. And, yes, Medusa, this show will break you; but only to build you up again. It's worth it, because it was always worth it.
I wasn't aware of that, thank you for posting. I know when I first saw The Lord Of The Rings trilogy(having never read the books) I could see that was a huge influence on JMS.
IIRC, there's also a bit where in the B-squared series-3 Delen puts her hand on Jeff's arm, but in WWE, she doesn't and is wearing different clothes too.
There is a small continuity difference when Sinclair says everything happened the way he remembered. In Babylon Squared we just hear Delenn's voice (to not reveal her transformation) and her hand is seen resting on Sinclair's arm whereas in this version it isn't. I seem to recall reading that there may have been some issue with being able to match the colour and material for her dress so they decided to just not include the gesture, but this seems a bit unlikely. It's a brief shot and nobody would notice if the material of her sleeve was slightly different. Heck unless you watched the episodes back-to-back you it's highly unlikely you'd notice the change that does exist!
The conference room might have been used as workmans tool storage during that time (station wasnt fully online yet and even a nearly finished house will have toolboxes and the like in odd places) :P ... so it might not be a problem.
the way they blend the earlier episode and later ones is amazing
It is such a joy and privilege to relive those emotions again with you.
I've watched the series multiple times over the years, and it still gets me every time.
Since I'm terrible at avoiding spoilers and only discovered B5 in 2020, this episode didn't hit the hardest on the first watch. It hit the hardest after I'd first seen convention videos, including of course the JMS promise panel. I'd known why O'Hare had left before, but hearing it all spelled out and seeing how wonderfully connected the cast still seemed at the reunions... This two-parter, already so pregnant with meaning that one has to take notes to get it all the first time, takes on even more weight in context. It is a testimony to second chances, to adapting to changes, to keeping your word, to not giving up, to making the hard choice. It embodies why I love B5 so much, and why it is so inspiring, through craft and soul alike, a show that is both excellent and so, so human.
I couldn't wait to see your reaction to this double episode. It's just such a brilliant piece of writing on the part of JMS once again. There are many time travel stories out there and many of them have plots full of inconsistencies, but this one is absolutely perfect! No inconsistencies, no contradictions, everything ties up so beautifully. And Sinclair being Valen! That one really floored me when I first saw it. It's just so powerful! I know that watching it was quite an emotional rollercoaster for you (as it was for me on my first watching it and still is, really) but it was well worth it, you have to admit.
If theres ever been beauty in connecting all those strands together then babylon 5 owns that honour.
It is perhaps worth you seeing jm stasinskys interview when your done with the show...to understand the great difficulties that transpired with Michael o.hares tenure of the shows 1st season ...and the great care that jms gave to help him throughout his time.
Getting him back for the 2 parter was heartbreaking...but satisfying.....
And Thankyou....as always wonderful reactions and heartwarming understanding
My memory of seeing this episode conclude was the slow realization that we were suddenly on our own. Up to this point "prophesy" had led us -- surprisingly accurate prophesy (and now we knew why). There's no more voice from the future hinting at what was to come. What happened from here was anyone's guess. It was sobering.
This two parter ties up so many of the plot threads from the 3 seasons so far. And it was so good that Michael O’Hare was able to film this and give closure to Sinclair’s story
I remember seeing this back in the day and it blew our minds when we watched. Thank you for your amazing reaction and the trip down memory lane.
The blue spacesuits were built for, and used, in the 1960's epic sci-fi film "2001: A Space Odyssey". Now THAT is a great example of recycling :)
Part Two! And now, together. Here we go! (Ooo... I'm excited!)
Your reactions are so much like my wife and I when we first saw it. Thankyou for your input, it brings back so many memories. My best is when we stopped watching it early season 2, then came across 3.09 a year later. We were both awestruck when the opening sequence said "It failed" and then watching that episode (the one before Severed Dreams), there was no way we would miss an episode ever again.. :)
The look on your face when you realized Sinclair was Valen was priceless. I love how you're reacting to this incredible series.
I was SO looking forward to seeing your reactions to this Two-Parter for MANY reasons. You exceeded my expectations. It was a joy watching you on this. :)
The way JMS reworked the concept of The One - necessary after O'Hare was forced to depart - and still made it work, is simply amazing.
And all the way back at The Gathering, when Kosh met the assassin posing as Jeff what did he say? "Entil'za Valen". Well. Dang. Coming out with it right early. Plain sight.
(This was, admittedly a retcon. The line was added to the special edition of The Gathering made after season 4 when the show moved to air on TNT for the fifth season.)
It was a retcon like Han Solo not shooting first.
Was a HUGE fan during B5's original release, some of the tightest and best sci-fi writing of all time. I just love watching your bubbling and explosion of awe and emotions, helps me relive my first time through B5.
Your reactions are the best ones anywhere. I may just go back in time and watch them for a thousand years.
The revelation we get at the end of this episode is the single biggest revelation I've ever seen in any movie/series. Perfectly conducted.
I recently heard that the same people who did this show are doing a reboot of Babylon 5. Perhaps they will tell more of this story. Like what happened 1000 years ago.
I was a huge fan of B5 when it first aired back in the 90s. It's serialized storytelling was unique ans trend setting.
There's a sci-fi series on Netflix called Dark and I suspect the creators have watched B5, because it also Involves the theme of "3" and time travel.
Can't believe B5 is 30 years old.
Now I feel old... 😫
THIS IS THE REACTION I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR, ever since I started watching these videos! From the beginning of these, and seeing just how much of a Sinclair fan you have become, I have been been saying "she is going to lose it on this one!" ever since your reaction to Sinclair's revealing of the Rangers to Garibaldi. Your reaction did not disappoint, and I even felt the chills again upon the revelation of Sinclair becoming Valen. And though this circle is closed, if you'll pardon the expression, there is still so much more of the story yet to come!
Also, now that you've passed this point, when and if you get a moment, check out JMS and his "promise panel." No spoilers, but a very heartfelt story of how Michael O'Hare's story unfolded. It will certainly change your perspective on his performance. Also a little bit of insight on the others that have gone "beyond the rim."
Until next time!