Just got Secrets of the Lost Station for cheap on Miniature Market's Backrooms Sale and am just now seeing this video in my searching. Now see, I love long narratives and campaigns in my board games because I love playing TTRPGs and I love that element in my board gaming since I ahve nobody to play RPGs with. Its one thing that makes me love Tanares Adventures. So I'm looking forward to Lost Station. But different strokes for different folks. As usual, another great video. This is my favorite channel and I may just have to become a Patreon member.
I think for the price on the sale right now, it's probably worth it, especially if you don't have the expectations of it being Secrets of the lost Tomb, in space! Enjoy!
@@TheDungeonDive I 100% agree. My wheelhouse is not generally sci-fi (its high and epic fantasy) but I do like Galaxy Defenders very much. And while I was interested in this when I first learned about it, the high price and theme did not make me want it bad enough. But getting the game at that ridiculously low price on sale, I just couldn't pass it up.
@@TheDungeonDive and I think you did it well. Rather than say, "this is why the is bad," you gave your subjective expectations and why it failed to meet them. I also agree that with no game should you have to wait "10 hours in" for the fun to emerge. New mechanics, new wrinkles to the formula? Of course, but not a trickle of content that builds up to a satisfying experience.
I love your thoughts here. Reminds me of the skills I try to get students to learn in my social studies classes. Learning to use dialectical thought, recognize when they have analysis and how to connect their thoughts and ideas to other things they’ve learned, experiences etc. The idea that even when students have steadfast opinions they can arrive at different conclusions after listening to others, reflecting, critiquing their own thoughts and other thoughts. Thinking, analyzing, evaluating, these are some of the best skills a student can learn and I am glad to see you utlilize them and reflect on these skills here on RUclips an. Keep on engaging. Not that it matters, but I totally dig it.
I'm a big fan of iterative thinking. It takes me a long time to come to a real conclusion, and along the way my opinion on things changes and evolves. I like to discuss things with myself and with others while I'm in the process of thinking it out. :)
One should never apologize for being critical. It’s not “unfortunate” to be critical-it is lucky. Critique means analysis-only recently has the word been associated with predominantly *negative* commentary, as opposed to an analysis of the merits as well as the faults of something. I hope you continue to critique every game on your channel as I’m here for your insights, whether framed in a positive or negative light. Another great vid on this game.
I know, it's weird that I feel like I have to apologize these days for being critical. I'll stop! :) I will always be critical of the things I choose to spend my time and money on, I just might frame my more "negative" reviews in a different light, like this conversational video here.
I agree on all your points. I've bought Dungeon Degenerates thanks to your review, and I like it for the same reasons you mentioned: story telling from the game play / relatively short campaign / access to all the items and skills from the beginning.
This hit home with me a lot. I remember that I was having a similar problem with video games a while back. There was a strong trend of making games more cinematic, but what game makers thought it meant was that we wanted more movies in our games. It became so bad that you would get a few minutes of a movie interrupted by a minute of gameplay. At this point it's not really a game. In contrast there was a game called "A Tale of Two Brothers" that told a story in a way only a video game could. There were a lot of amazing moments in that game, but the one that stood out to me the most, was a lengthy scene where the titular brothers were climbing up a ledge. In order to climb the wall, you had to hold one button for the small brother to hold on to the mountain, and another button for the big brother to hold on. Because it took a long time to get to the top, your hands would gradually start to hurt. And then it hit me - I am climbing a ledge, my hands hurt and I want to let go, but if I do the characters will die. This was an experience that neither reading a book or watching a movie could ever give me.
"There was a strong trend of making games more cinematic, but what game makers thought it meant was that we wanted more movies in our games." Yes! totally. A Tale of Two Brothers is a FANTASTIC game. I'm all for mediums capitalizing on the things that make them unique, and using their strengths and weaknesses in ways that distinguish them from other mediums.
I enjoy your critical analysis of game design and visual design. It's what made your channel stand out to me when I stumbled upon it. I don't mind you shifting gears and focusing on reviews for games you love, but I think your discourse about design is good and healthy (and subjective, so I'm not sure why anyone would berate you for it, unless tone is just getting lost in forum threads and comment sections, which is often does).
Thanks for the response. I think you’ll largely get the same kind of stuff from me. It will just be framed differently. Negative things will be more conversational. And I will still be critical of the things I love.
That was thought out and articulated critique. I appreciate how passionate you are about your hobbies and enjoy your videos. I have made a few purchases based off your reviews (Hellboy is the latest) and have enjoyed them because I had a better understanding of what I was getting into. Critique away, as haters gunna hate whatever you do.
absolutely agree 110% !!! Glad to see there are more passionate gamer out there giving some deeper thoughts on some hyped KS games. I although feel worried about this story book madness trend lately (200K words etc etc)Thx for your videos!
You made your point very clear, and it was helpful for me. I think it's fine when you explain what is it that you don't like about a game, might help people to get some insight before deciding to give it a try - especially those people who share the same taste as you for board games. I follow your channel because at some point I saw one of your videos, for Dark Light if I am not mistaken, and found out that we might have the same taste for board games. So I decided to watch your reviews and am interested on your opinion about games. But it's up to you! I mean, you have to do what makes you happy and not what people think you should do. And thanks for sharing your thoughts!
i follow his channel, because he has a video about the "state of the collection" or channel or whatever and he mentioned all the games he gave away and why. Most helpful video ever and reminded me to buy a game I want, that he gave away.
So here is the beautiful thing about this video. A lot of what you are down on with this game are things that I am super interested in. I actually dig long campaigns and slow build ups. I actually am now interested in checking the game out now, and have reached out to the publisher.
We certainly did our best. It's a different game from Tomb for sure - which as you said will be great for some and maybe not as good for others. But of course, that's every single board game out there :) We strive to make the best games out there and we're definitely not a big company. Thanks for your honest feedback. You've been heard loud and clear on Tomb :) - Chris
Thanks, Chris. You know it pains me to feel this way about Lost Station! We've talked for a long time about things, and we're often on the same page. You also know how much I love Lost Tomb. :) Can't wait to see what you guys have in store for that!
I'm going to be re-doing my Lost Tomb video series to make it even better, because I don't think my old video did the game justice. So that could help in a small way! I know I've turned a lot of people on to that game!
I could not agree with you more about the trend in board gaming right now. It's the same thing that killed video games and made me start playing board games in the first place. I don't want to sit through a half hour of cut scenes before I can play the game. And I don't want to read page after page of mediocre predictable story either. I adore games that tell a story out of random events, but not something that is on rails. I see a game on Kickstarter that advertises as Story or Campaign based I just don't back anymore, not matter how alluring the theme or components might be because i've realized these games are just not for me.
One of the main reasons why the Souls games resonate with me so much. All game play. The story is there but it’s up to the player to dig for it. Like you, I prefer games where I can control how much story there is.
I think you nailed your explanation of what makes story good in a game. This game sounds really intriguing but not sure where I'd find the time to commit to such a long narrative that requires a slow burn to enjoy,
One thing that Tom Vasel does on Dice Tower is that he occasionally collects together several (4 or 5 ) games that didn't work for him and just runs through them quickly.
Necro comment since I just picked this game up fairly cheap at GenCon. I have yet to open my copy and start to play, but I am interested in seeing if I have the same opinion as you. I don't have an issue with delayed rewards, but I also really enjoyed Gloomhaven and come from an RPG background. This is going to be my long campaign game I am going to play next, Horizon Zero Dawn (and expansions) is my short "campaign" game currently to play with my wife.
I feel that companies give us long campaigns because that is what they think we like. In fact I am pretty certain that most of us believe that is what we like?! In reality, there are very few of us who only have a few games in our collection and so the practicality of devoting many hours to one game makes this unlikely? There is more chance that I will pull Gears of War or Cthulhu Death May Die off the shelf for a one off game than Edge:Dawnfall, for example, to continue a campaign. However that doesn't stop me from continuing to back campaign games on Kickstarter, that I will probably never complete the campaigns with?!
DJ so there I was for the past week or so on another social media site and it dawned on me. You are no longer a member of one of the groups I follow. I found it odd I was no longer getting nearly daily notices of posts from you and a couple of others you interacted with quite often in this certain group. I'm going to say it's a damn shame if that little episode about Secrets of the Lost Station is what caused you to have to leave. I didn't always agree with your takes on games or the great debate of miniatures vs standees (lol) but the group I mention is a bit less colorful without your input.
Hey there. Yeah I quit posting on the group. I didn’t like how the whole Lost Station thing was handled. But I’m still here doing my thing :). Thanks for watching! I also post stuff on my Dungeon Dive FB page. Take care!
You hit on it very early in the video when you stated it would not be beneficial if all you did was positive reviews. Hopefully by reflecting on that you will not go down that droll path. Personally I wouldn't want all positive reviewing, because then I will be left to feel you just love any thing with the title "Board Game" on it. I'd be a lot less inclined to respect any reviewer's opinion if they took that path. That said I don't see what the huge issue has been. You were disappointed in a "sequel" much like many are disappointed in movie sequels. However, I do think your review of Lost Station is compromised hugely by you not being able to free yourself from your expectations. You discussed it and own up to that. At the end of the day this was a game you just aren't able to wholeheartedly review professionally. And you know what? That is ok.
I also promise to be honest and critical. I just might frame my more negative reviews in a different way, similar to this one. Present them more as a conversation.
Funny, I said what you said about "narrative" games over at BGG and got crucified. I wasn't as articulate as you. Maybe that was it. Listening to your arguments about long, narrative games I notice you seem to love Etherfields. Doesn't Etherfields tick some of the boxes of heavy narrative and long campaigns? I myself favor games that tell narrative, emerging stories while you play the game. Prime examples are Talisman and A Touch of Evil.
Etherfields is a long campaign, but it's almost all game play. The reading / downtime is minimal. Small paragraphs here and there. Also, there are always exceptions to every rule!
@@TheDungeonDive I'll be waiting to hear about it from you. And I agree theme is high on my priorty list. I also belive fun should be had within the first hour. It's a telltale sign to me that the game will be great going forward.
Man, so many thoughtful comments on these last couple of videos. Thanks, everyone!
Just got Secrets of the Lost Station for cheap on Miniature Market's Backrooms Sale and am just now seeing this video in my searching. Now see, I love long narratives and campaigns in my board games because I love playing TTRPGs and I love that element in my board gaming since I ahve nobody to play RPGs with. Its one thing that makes me love Tanares Adventures. So I'm looking forward to Lost Station. But different strokes for different folks. As usual, another great video. This is my favorite channel and I may just have to become a Patreon member.
I think for the price on the sale right now, it's probably worth it, especially if you don't have the expectations of it being Secrets of the lost Tomb, in space! Enjoy!
@@TheDungeonDive I 100% agree. My wheelhouse is not generally sci-fi (its high and epic fantasy) but I do like Galaxy Defenders very much. And while I was interested in this when I first learned about it, the high price and theme did not make me want it bad enough. But getting the game at that ridiculously low price on sale, I just couldn't pass it up.
There is a lot of game there for the price.
Thank you for braving backlash and being willing to provide some critical analysis.
I think if I frame things in a different way, in a more conversational tone like I did here, I can avoid the DEFENSE FORCE backlash. :)
@@TheDungeonDive and I think you did it well. Rather than say, "this is why the is bad," you gave your subjective expectations and why it failed to meet them. I also agree that with no game should you have to wait "10 hours in" for the fun to emerge. New mechanics, new wrinkles to the formula? Of course, but not a trickle of content that builds up to a satisfying experience.
I love your thoughts here. Reminds me of the skills I try to get students to learn in my social studies classes. Learning to use dialectical thought, recognize when they have analysis and how to connect their thoughts and ideas to other things they’ve learned, experiences etc. The idea that even when students have steadfast opinions they can arrive at different conclusions after listening to others, reflecting, critiquing their own thoughts and other thoughts. Thinking, analyzing, evaluating, these are some of the best skills a student can learn and I am glad to see you utlilize them and reflect on these skills here on RUclips an. Keep on engaging. Not that it matters, but I totally dig it.
I'm a big fan of iterative thinking. It takes me a long time to come to a real conclusion, and along the way my opinion on things changes and evolves. I like to discuss things with myself and with others while I'm in the process of thinking it out. :)
One should never apologize for being critical. It’s not “unfortunate” to be critical-it is lucky. Critique means analysis-only recently has the word been associated with predominantly *negative* commentary, as opposed to an analysis of the merits as well as the faults of something. I hope you continue to critique every game on your channel as I’m here for your insights, whether framed in a positive or negative light.
Another great vid on this game.
I know, it's weird that I feel like I have to apologize these days for being critical. I'll stop! :) I will always be critical of the things I choose to spend my time and money on, I just might frame my more "negative" reviews in a different light, like this conversational video here.
I agree on all your points. I've bought Dungeon Degenerates thanks to your review, and I like it for the same reasons you mentioned: story telling from the game play / relatively short campaign / access to all the items and skills from the beginning.
That’s great! So glad you like DG. :)
This hit home with me a lot. I remember that I was having a similar problem with video games a while back. There was a strong trend of making games more cinematic, but what game makers thought it meant was that we wanted more movies in our games. It became so bad that you would get a few minutes of a movie interrupted by a minute of gameplay. At this point it's not really a game.
In contrast there was a game called "A Tale of Two Brothers" that told a story in a way only a video game could. There were a lot of amazing moments in that game, but the one that stood out to me the most, was a lengthy scene where the titular brothers were climbing up a ledge. In order to climb the wall, you had to hold one button for the small brother to hold on to the mountain, and another button for the big brother to hold on. Because it took a long time to get to the top, your hands would gradually start to hurt. And then it hit me - I am climbing a ledge, my hands hurt and I want to let go, but if I do the characters will die. This was an experience that neither reading a book or watching a movie could ever give me.
"There was a strong trend of making games more cinematic, but what game makers thought it meant was that we wanted more movies in our games."
Yes! totally. A Tale of Two Brothers is a FANTASTIC game.
I'm all for mediums capitalizing on the things that make them unique, and using their strengths and weaknesses in ways that distinguish them from other mediums.
I enjoy your critical analysis of game design and visual design. It's what made your channel stand out to me when I stumbled upon it. I don't mind you shifting gears and focusing on reviews for games you love, but I think your discourse about design is good and healthy (and subjective, so I'm not sure why anyone would berate you for it, unless tone is just getting lost in forum threads and comment sections, which is often does).
Thanks for the response. I think you’ll largely get the same kind of stuff from me. It will just be framed differently. Negative things will be more conversational. And I will still be critical of the things I love.
That was thought out and articulated critique. I appreciate how passionate you are about your hobbies and enjoy your videos. I have made a few purchases based off your reviews (Hellboy is the latest) and have enjoyed them because I had a better understanding of what I was getting into. Critique away, as haters gunna hate whatever you do.
Thanks, appreciate it. :)
absolutely agree 110% !!! Glad to see there are more passionate gamer out there giving some deeper thoughts on some hyped KS games. I although feel worried about this story book madness trend lately (200K words etc etc)Thx for your videos!
It's getting a little out of hand, right? With board game narratives, less is more, but brevity is also more difficult.
You made your point very clear, and it was helpful for me. I think it's fine when you explain what is it that you don't like about a game, might help people to get some insight before deciding to give it a try - especially those people who share the same taste as you for board games. I follow your channel because at some point I saw one of your videos, for Dark Light if I am not mistaken, and found out that we might have the same taste for board games. So I decided to watch your reviews and am interested on your opinion about games. But it's up to you! I mean, you have to do what makes you happy and not what people think you should do. And thanks for sharing your thoughts!
i follow his channel, because he has a video about the "state of the collection" or channel or whatever and he mentioned all the games he gave away and why. Most helpful video ever and reminded me to buy a game I want, that he gave away.
Scho0rschi glad you like those videos and find them useful. :)
Glad you did this video as well. Best greetings back. :) Hopefully our next projects will be more fun for us. :)
Die Nische I feel lost now! I expected the next month or so to be filled with Lost Station gaming and videos. :(
@@TheDungeonDive Same here. But I have other big incoming games that I cannot wait to check out. ;) Keep up your good work and keep your spirit. ;)
@@TheDungeonDive time for myth i guess ;-)
@@CadorYT I'm so scared of doing that series. The game and fans are so intimidating! :)
@@TheDungeonDive at least myth will give you the total freeform feel that you missed in Lost station! :) even in the rules :)
So here is the beautiful thing about this video. A lot of what you are down on with this game are things that I am super interested in. I actually dig long campaigns and slow build ups. I actually am now interested in checking the game out now, and have reached out to the publisher.
They have some for sale on their website.
@@TheDungeonDive yup I'm looking into it!
We certainly did our best. It's a different game from Tomb for sure - which as you said will be great for some and maybe not as good for others. But of course, that's every single board game out there :) We strive to make the best games out there and we're definitely not a big company. Thanks for your honest feedback. You've been heard loud and clear on Tomb :) - Chris
Thanks, Chris. You know it pains me to feel this way about Lost Station! We've talked for a long time about things, and we're often on the same page. You also know how much I love Lost Tomb. :) Can't wait to see what you guys have in store for that!
@@TheDungeonDive indeed. It's an expensive project and we will do our best. Here's praying we can get the budget together.
I'm going to be re-doing my Lost Tomb video series to make it even better, because I don't think my old video did the game justice. So that could help in a small way! I know I've turned a lot of people on to that game!
@@TheDungeonDive could be cool indeed :)
As usual...Nailed it! Thanks for you insight.
Oh...and the clipboard - Love it.
I keep forgetting to mention the DD logo. It was designed for me by Rob Lemon, the developer of Dark Venture.
Big fan of Dark Venture and Rob Lemon’s art.
Oh yeah. His art is amazing.
Insightful and thoughtful duo of videos, Daniel. They make great thumbnails, too.
Thanks. Glad you like them. :)
I could not agree with you more about the trend in board gaming right now. It's the same thing that killed video games and made me start playing board games in the first place. I don't want to sit through a half hour of cut scenes before I can play the game. And I don't want to read page after page of mediocre predictable story either. I adore games that tell a story out of random events, but not something that is on rails. I see a game on Kickstarter that advertises as Story or Campaign based I just don't back anymore, not matter how alluring the theme or components might be because i've realized these games are just not for me.
One of the main reasons why the Souls games resonate with me so much. All game play. The story is there but it’s up to the player to dig for it. Like you, I prefer games where I can control how much story there is.
I think you nailed your explanation of what makes story good in a game. This game sounds really intriguing but not sure where I'd find the time to commit to such a long narrative that requires a slow burn to enjoy,
That's the main issue - time.
One thing that Tom Vasel does on Dice Tower is that he occasionally collects together several (4 or 5 ) games that didn't work for him and just runs through them quickly.
Going to have to agree to disagree on Middara though (it is in my top 5) :-)
Thomas it’s a good game. No doubt. Just not for my group.
@@TheDungeonDive Thankfully, I don't play with a group. I am a Solo gamer.
Necro comment since I just picked this game up fairly cheap at GenCon. I have yet to open my copy and start to play, but I am interested in seeing if I have the same opinion as you. I don't have an issue with delayed rewards, but I also really enjoyed Gloomhaven and come from an RPG background. This is going to be my long campaign game I am going to play next, Horizon Zero Dawn (and expansions) is my short "campaign" game currently to play with my wife.
Sounds like it will be something you enjoy!
I feel that companies give us long campaigns because that is what they think we like. In fact I am pretty certain that most of us believe that is what we like?! In reality, there are very few of us who only have a few games in our collection and so the practicality of devoting many hours to one game makes this unlikely? There is more chance that I will pull Gears of War or Cthulhu Death May Die off the shelf for a one off game than Edge:Dawnfall, for example, to continue a campaign. However that doesn't stop me from continuing to back campaign games on Kickstarter, that I will probably never complete the campaigns with?!
I prefer no or short campaigns. Or character arc campaigns like WHQ. Zero to hero is great.
DJ so there I was for the past week or so on another social media site
and it dawned on me. You are no longer a member of one of the groups I
follow. I found it odd I was no longer getting nearly daily notices of
posts from you and a couple of others you interacted with quite often in this certain group.
I'm going to say it's a damn shame if that
little episode about Secrets of the Lost Station is what caused you to
have to leave.
I didn't always agree with your takes on games or the great debate of miniatures vs standees (lol) but the group I mention is a bit less colorful without your input.
Hey there. Yeah I quit posting on the group. I didn’t like how the whole Lost Station thing was handled. But I’m still here doing my thing :). Thanks for watching! I also post stuff on my Dungeon Dive FB page. Take care!
Do you still have the game? Might be interested in buying it
Someone is supposed to pick it up locally. Trying to do that first to avoid shipping.
You hit on it very early in the video when you stated it would not be beneficial if all you did was positive reviews. Hopefully by reflecting on that you will not go down that droll path. Personally I wouldn't want all positive reviewing, because then I will be left to feel you just love any thing with the title "Board Game" on it. I'd be a lot less inclined to respect any reviewer's opinion if they took that path.
That said I don't see what the huge issue has been. You were disappointed in a "sequel" much like many are disappointed in movie sequels. However, I do think your review of Lost Station is compromised hugely by you not being able to free yourself from your expectations. You discussed it and own up to that. At the end of the day this was a game you just aren't able to wholeheartedly review professionally. And you know what? That is ok.
Totally! That’s why I still think this is a good game. Just not one I’m into. Thanks for the thoughtful response!
I also promise to be honest and critical. I just might frame my more negative reviews in a different way, similar to this one. Present them more as a conversation.
Funny, I said what you said about "narrative" games over at BGG and got crucified. I wasn't as articulate as you. Maybe that was it. Listening to your arguments about long, narrative games I notice you seem to love Etherfields. Doesn't Etherfields tick some of the boxes of heavy narrative and long campaigns? I myself favor games that tell narrative, emerging stories while you play the game. Prime examples are Talisman and A Touch of Evil.
Etherfields is a long campaign, but it's almost all game play. The reading / downtime is minimal. Small paragraphs here and there. Also, there are always exceptions to every rule!
@@TheDungeonDive do you think theme goes a long way in mitigating some of those exceptions? Have you tried Tainted Grail for example.
Oh for sure. Theme is, for me, the most important thing. I have not tried Tainted Grail, because I'm still waiting for stupid 1-wave shipping.
@@TheDungeonDive I'll be waiting to hear about it from you. And I agree theme is high on my priorty list. I also belive fun should be had within the first hour. It's a telltale sign to me that the game will be great going forward.