Thanks for talking about the '79 sight. A lot of people don't know the difference. My t/d carbine is a cut down 1880s model. Thick wrist, etc. I put an original '73 rear sight on and it looks great!
Talking about having things for a long time, I just handed down to my son a rifle his Great Great Grandfather had bought for his Great Grandfather when he turned 12 years old in 1920. It is a Remington Model 6 boys rifle in 22LR. All 3 of my boys learned to shoot with it along with myself and my brother back in the 80's, just as my father and uncle had back in the 40's and 50's. My youngest son still borrows his brother rifle to hunt squirels with to this day. My Father was at a shooting match with several sutlers around about 1973 and walked into one of the tents where he saw a crate marked Springfield on a table. The owner opened the crate up and in it were 6 completely original 1866 model Trapdoor with bayonet and frogs to match. My dad bought the gun, along with a match barrel and a replacement original hammer for an 1863 Springfield. He took off the trapdoor barrel and hammer and put the match barrel and percussion hammer back on it and used it for many years in N-SSA competition. It happened to be the first rifle I ever shot when I was 3 years old. My dad double charged the gun as a way to make me not want to be to curious about guns at that age and held the gun up for me to snuggle onto the stock and pull the trigger. It knocked me back and put me on my butt about 5 feet behind the firing line. Dad thought he had just killed me until I get up and run back up to him and say "gee daddy, that was fun, can I do it again". He broke out the old Remington model 6 after that. He sold that gun after him and my mother's divorce but years later, he found out who had it and bought it back, for my 27th birthday, he gave it to me at a match and I haven't shot a match without it ever since. I just can't find another musket that shoots as good and I have several other originals.
My dad was stationed at Otis Air Force Base, just down the road from the Springfield Armory, in the early 1960s, when the 1884s were finally being surplused. I grew up with an 1884, with its bayonet and scabbard. It was all in better shape than a lot of the rifles I was issued during my 18 years in the Military.
Very informative video, thank you for your great effort. I have a 1884 carbine manufactured in 1886, barrel was shot, bullets tumbled, had a barrel reline with the proper bore size and 3 groove rifling, shoots groups 2 inches at 100 yards , and I can use jacketed bullets, trapdoor safe loads of course .
The Buffington is easy if shooting within 1,400 yards. Calibrated for a 500gr round nose leaving the bore at 1,315 fps. Ballistics Coefficient of .389. Sight has the buckhorn set at 200 yards. It is not windage adjustable while the staff is laid down. Stuff up, the triangle battle sight is set for 200 yards and has a righthand arrow at the base of said triangle indicating the setting. The staff righthand side shows increments from 200 to 1,400 yards with 25, 50 and 75 yard hash mark increments. The lower aperture and corresponding right hand arrow is for 200-1,400 yard precision work much like a vernier sight. For distances beyond 1,400 yards, it becomes substantially more complicated, can be quiet confusing and wasn't very practical even then. The manual is online if you're bothered to learn the convoluted system of lobbing rounds into a general area. Make no mistake or assumptions however, within 1,400 yards, assuming you have a good barrel, can see well and have properly calibrated ammunition, you can put most of your shots onto a 24" plate at 1,000 yards. This rifle, the 500gr ammunition and the sight were engineered by target shooters who set world records. These were world class marksmen and Civil War veterans, they were not fucking around. Windage is simple math. 1 minute hash marks. 1 hash at 100 equals 1 inch of shift either left or right. Multiply that inch of input for each additional 100 yards. 1 hash of input equals 3 inches at 300 yards, 4 inches at 400....8" at 800 yards...10" at 1000. So, a full 8 minutes or hashes of input at 1000 yards would yield 80 inches of impact shift. 8 x 10. So just think 1-14 on the staff or ladder x 1-8. Only the Buffington is calibrated for a 500gr bullet at 1,315 fps. The 1873 - 1879 (rifle) sights are calibrated for a 405gr bullet leaving the muzzle at 1,350 fps. The 79 sight can be windage adjustable, some were modified to delete the feature. The various sights are interchangeable, you can change out a Buffington rifle sight for a 1879 if you're using 405gr rifle ammo. Most factory Trapdoor ammo produced today will be flat nose 405gr loaded to about 1,300 - 1,400 fps. The 1879 sight is the best option in this case and does not devalue a rifle that formerly wore a Buffington. Just don't misplace a $300 Buffington sight or bubba the front sight. All the sights are marked either C or R. Carbine or Rifle. It matters because carbine ammo featured reduced charges with a 405gr leaving the muzzle at 1,150 fps to reduce recoil.
That 1884 is beautiful! A trapdoor is on my short list. I've only seen one in person and the shop wanted what I considered to be too much for it. (was over $900 and in pretty rough shape). So I've been stalking Gunbroker for a few days. Hopefully before the week is out i'll have one on its way to me. The full length rifle is fine with me :) No need for an expensive Carbine. But I do not want a sporter.
The thin butt stock on the cavalry carbines was abandoned because if the horse fell and rolled, even if the rider was thrown, the horse rolling over often broke the stock. Similar when butt stocking an opponent. With the thicker shorter butt stock the rifle didn't break as easily.
Although Billy Dixon's long shot was done with a Sharps, those old Black Powder guns were a lot more accurate than we think, it just takes practice to learn how to judge long distances. You could hit a group of a few men at least at over 1500 yards.
I'm going to do that. I think 20 or 30-1 lead bullets may be the key to accuracy in the 1873. From what I've read it's possible the bore may be slightly tighter in front of the chamber so simply casting larger dia. bullets may not help.
I believe the earlier, thin, metal butt plates were breaking in two between the screws and Springfield Armory designed and replaced the faulty butt plates. It may have been a normal modification requested by the US Government. Another improvement.
Volley fire was still a thing back then. if there was an artillary piece and crew on a hill 2000 yards away, then twenty men would fire volleys at it in the hopes of taking out the crew. The theory being if you put enough lead in the air, you might hit something.
Two outstanding books on Springfields include: "Springfield Armory Shoulder Arms 1795-1968" by Robert W.D. Ball, copyright 1997, and "Guns of the Western Indian War" by R. Stephen Dorsey, Copyright 1995. Also, don't forget the Modoc Indian War (1872-1873) in northeastern California. The U.S. Model 1868 .50-70 "Trapdoor" Springfield, Model 1868 Sharps conversion (also .50-70), and even Remington Rolling Block (.50-70) saw service during this conflict. The .45-70 Springfield came later.
I'm working on getting together a good load for the 1873. It has a.462 dia. bore and it keyholes .461 dia. bullets at 50 yards so once I get it sorted out, I'll upload a video of how to load for the older rifles with non standard bores.
the 461 dia bullet will shoot just fine if you take a 45 cal gas check and load it upside down under the bullet. since it is a straight wall case it will stay in place and act as a gas seal so that the bullet just slides out the bore with no gas cutting.
The 1884 was the first rifle I ever shot, when I was 10 or 11. Quite a kick. It was gifted to my older brother from a retired veteran of the Spanish American war and WWI. A beautiful, but heavy gun. It was always in "The Bow room", where my grandfather's hand-made bows and arrows were hung, a bear skin rug and collection of weapons and buckskins were. It also served as my two oldest brother's bedroom. There was a bayonet in the room, but I am not sure it was for the 45/70. It actually is an ungainly weapon for it's weight. The windage sight on it was as shown here. My brother said it was a brush gun, meaning brush and small twigs would not significantly deflect the heavy bullet. Lobbing bullets that that sight at maximum might allow could as easily be hip shot once alignment was determined. The shoulder could hardly purchase at that angle. Beautiful sounds operating it, click, click, clack.
Yeah this is late but it needs to be stated. I would recommend using only BP. 400 grain lead for carbines, anything to 500 for the Rifle. The 1873 is the weaker action and it was repeatedly upgraded till the 1884 version with a heavier action and breechblock. DO NOT shoot smokeless powder in this rifle and ESPECIALLY not some of the data in loading manuals. I have seen some really scary data for Hodgdon especially. Yes I KNOW this. I been gunsmith specializing in blackpowder arms since the 1960s and was the gunsmith for Shiloh Rifle Manufacturing for several years and also worked for C Sharps for a time. BP (NOT PYRODEX or you WILL damage the rifle) loaded RIGHT is very accurate but its got a learning curve. Contact www.blackpowderspg.com/ for more info and a loading manual.
Very helpful. I am currently looking at one with a split stock around the wrist. Pawn shop is desperate to move it. What would be a good price? Not sure the version until I get a second look. Are stocks easily found and affordable? Had kinda written it off, but now thinking it might be worth the hassle. They are askin $550
I had an H&R and hated to sell it to pay medical bills, but it was a great gun and whitetails never knew what hit it, 65 gr of BP in the cartridge and a paper patched 405 gr bullet and Winchester Large Rifle primer. From a rest it shot about 1.5 inch groups at 150 yards with that load. I used to sandbags to hold it in place so I took the human factor out of it.
if it has the eagle head that means it was made at springfield armory ..later years with this rifle not all were made there the eagle head is where it passed QC test and approved for service VP is part of the test showing it was fired and pasted
Great info!!! I've been sorting through my fathers old rifles and came across one of these. I found the number 3968 underneath the hammer. Is that the serial number? Also found a "3" stamped in the stock above the trigger area on the left side and an "8" stamped in at the top rear of the stock (about an inch in fron of the metalbutt plate. On the butt plate there is a US on top and a G334 stamped into the metal on the end. Any help with identification would be appreciated!
I have a problem with my 1873 that if I try and slowly squeeze off a shot it falls into half-cock, but if I aggressively pull back the trigger its fine. I don't have this problem with my 1884 which has a better action IMO. Also I noticed my 1873 has a 3 position tumbler and the 1884 a 2 position tumbler. Any ideas what is the problem? I appreciate your videos very much, especially regarding the Martini Henrys.
I thought you were going to tell us the differences between the weapons ? You keep calling it an 1873 when nothing on it is 1873. The stock is deeply cut down and not indicative of a "short" stock. You need to read about these weapons and go get yourself a real Model 1873.
Halfcan Tan then a good solid single barrel .410 is a gray choice... You can shoot big bore rifle Cartridges out of it. Even without rifling it is very accurate 50 yards but deadly much further out... Look up iraqvet8888 video on the .410 that would not die...
Thanks for talking about the '79 sight. A lot of people don't know the difference. My t/d carbine is a cut down 1880s model. Thick wrist, etc. I put an original '73 rear sight on and it looks great!
Talking about having things for a long time, I just handed down to my son a rifle his Great Great Grandfather had bought for his Great Grandfather when he turned 12 years old in 1920. It is a Remington Model 6 boys rifle in 22LR. All 3 of my boys learned to shoot with it along with myself and my brother back in the 80's, just as my father and uncle had back in the 40's and 50's. My youngest son still borrows his brother rifle to hunt squirels with to this day. My Father was at a shooting match with several sutlers around about 1973 and walked into one of the tents where he saw a crate marked Springfield on a table. The owner opened the crate up and in it were 6 completely original 1866 model Trapdoor with bayonet and frogs to match. My dad bought the gun, along with a match barrel and a replacement original hammer for an 1863 Springfield. He took off the trapdoor barrel and hammer and put the match barrel and percussion hammer back on it and used it for many years in N-SSA competition. It happened to be the first rifle I ever shot when I was 3 years old. My dad double charged the gun as a way to make me not want to be to curious about guns at that age and held the gun up for me to snuggle onto the stock and pull the trigger. It knocked me back and put me on my butt about 5 feet behind the firing line. Dad thought he had just killed me until I get up and run back up to him and say "gee daddy, that was fun, can I do it again". He broke out the old Remington model 6 after that. He sold that gun after him and my mother's divorce but years later, he found out who had it and bought it back, for my 27th birthday, he gave it to me at a match and I haven't shot a match without it ever since. I just can't find another musket that shoots as good and I have several other originals.
My dad was stationed at Otis Air Force Base, just down the road from the Springfield Armory, in the early 1960s, when the 1884s were finally being surplused. I grew up with an 1884, with its bayonet and scabbard. It was all in better shape than a lot of the rifles I was issued during my 18 years in the Military.
Finally an explanation why the rifle I'm looking at is so different than a typical 1873. It's an 1884 with a marksman's steel pistol grip wedge.
Very nice rifles. Just beautiful working pieces of history.
Informative and helpful. looking forward to the reloading process and firing. Thanks for the video.
Glad you found it entertaining! 50-70's can still be found if you look.
Very informative video, thank you for your great effort. I have a 1884 carbine manufactured in 1886, barrel was shot, bullets tumbled, had a barrel reline with the proper bore size and 3 groove rifling, shoots groups 2 inches at 100 yards , and I can use jacketed bullets, trapdoor safe loads of course .
The Buffington is easy if shooting within 1,400 yards.
Calibrated for a 500gr round nose leaving the bore at 1,315 fps. Ballistics Coefficient of .389.
Sight has the buckhorn set at 200 yards. It is not windage adjustable while the staff is laid down.
Stuff up, the triangle battle sight is set for 200 yards and has a righthand arrow at the base of said triangle indicating the setting. The staff righthand side shows increments from 200 to 1,400 yards with 25, 50 and 75 yard hash mark increments.
The lower aperture and corresponding right hand arrow is for 200-1,400 yard precision work much like a vernier sight.
For distances beyond 1,400 yards, it becomes substantially more complicated, can be quiet confusing and wasn't very practical even then. The manual is online if you're bothered to learn the convoluted system of lobbing rounds into a general area. Make no mistake or assumptions however, within 1,400 yards, assuming you have a good barrel, can see well and have properly calibrated ammunition, you can put most of your shots onto a 24" plate at 1,000 yards. This rifle, the 500gr ammunition and the sight were engineered by target shooters who set world records. These were world class marksmen and Civil War veterans, they were not fucking around.
Windage is simple math. 1 minute hash marks. 1 hash at 100 equals 1 inch of shift either left or right.
Multiply that inch of input for each additional 100 yards. 1 hash of input equals 3 inches at 300 yards, 4 inches at 400....8" at 800 yards...10" at 1000.
So, a full 8 minutes or hashes of input at 1000 yards would yield 80 inches of impact shift. 8 x 10.
So just think 1-14 on the staff or ladder x 1-8.
Only the Buffington is calibrated for a 500gr bullet at 1,315 fps.
The 1873 - 1879 (rifle) sights are calibrated for a 405gr bullet leaving the muzzle at 1,350 fps. The 79 sight can be windage adjustable, some were modified to delete the feature. The various sights are interchangeable, you can change out a Buffington rifle sight for a 1879 if you're using 405gr rifle ammo.
Most factory Trapdoor ammo produced today will be flat nose 405gr loaded to about 1,300 - 1,400 fps. The 1879 sight is the best option in this case and does not devalue a rifle that formerly wore a Buffington. Just don't misplace a $300 Buffington sight or bubba the front sight.
All the sights are marked either C or R. Carbine or Rifle.
It matters because carbine ammo featured reduced charges with a 405gr leaving the muzzle at 1,150 fps to reduce recoil.
That 1884 is beautiful! A trapdoor is on my short list. I've only seen one in person and the shop wanted what I considered to be too much for it. (was over $900 and in pretty rough shape). So I've been stalking Gunbroker for a few days. Hopefully before the week is out i'll have one on its way to me. The full length rifle is fine with me :) No need for an expensive Carbine. But I do not want a sporter.
The thin butt stock on the cavalry carbines was abandoned because if the horse fell and rolled, even if the rider was thrown, the horse rolling over often broke the stock. Similar when butt stocking an opponent. With the thicker shorter butt stock the rifle didn't break as easily.
Yes, I had read that it was a weaker design.
I have the gun up front and was wondering why it was stamped 1873. Thank you for the explanation.
Worth viewing multiple times!
Although Billy Dixon's long shot was done with a Sharps, those old Black Powder guns were a lot more accurate than we think, it just takes practice to learn how to judge long distances. You could hit a group of a few men at least at over 1500 yards.
I'm going to do that. I think 20 or 30-1 lead bullets may be the key to accuracy in the 1873. From what I've read it's possible the bore may be slightly tighter in front of the chamber so simply casting larger dia. bullets may not help.
I believe the earlier, thin, metal butt plates were breaking in two between the screws and Springfield Armory designed and replaced the faulty butt plates. It may have been a normal modification requested by the US Government. Another improvement.
Long range sight used for volley fire, multiple/mass shooters on multiple/mass adversaries.
Volley fire was still a thing back then.
if there was an artillary piece and crew on a hill 2000 yards away, then twenty men would fire volleys at it in the hopes of taking out the crew.
The theory being if you put enough lead in the air, you might hit something.
That's what I want next. Would like a 50-70 . thanks for the video :)
Its original, and I'd prefer to keep it for now. You can find them around, but you have to look. You can even find parts for these old things on ebay.
Awesome video! I can tell you really did some research. Do you plan on doing some reloading videos?
Your awesome and awesome video be safe out there
Two outstanding books on Springfields include: "Springfield Armory Shoulder Arms
1795-1968" by Robert W.D. Ball, copyright 1997, and "Guns of the Western Indian
War" by R. Stephen Dorsey, Copyright 1995. Also, don't forget the Modoc Indian
War (1872-1873) in northeastern California. The U.S. Model 1868 .50-70 "Trapdoor"
Springfield, Model 1868 Sharps conversion (also .50-70), and even Remington Rolling
Block (.50-70) saw service during this conflict. The .45-70 Springfield came later.
I had thought about it, but there are already several out there. Even still I may.
My 1884 also has a personalized BB in the wood but it came with a note hidden in the stock that says "Boyce Berkmeyer owns this gun, May 13th 1887"
Would love to have a trapdoor.
I hope to have the 1884 out to the range by the end of the week, and I'll let you know how I do!
I'm working on getting together a good load for the 1873. It has a.462 dia. bore and it keyholes .461 dia. bullets at 50 yards so once I get it sorted out, I'll upload a video of how to load for the older rifles with non standard bores.
I just acquired a 1873
the 461 dia bullet will shoot just fine if you take a 45 cal gas check and load it upside down under the bullet. since it is a straight wall case it will stay in place and act as a gas seal so that the bullet just slides out the bore with no gas cutting.
The 1884 was the first rifle I ever shot, when I was 10 or 11. Quite a kick. It was gifted to my older brother from a retired veteran of the Spanish American war and WWI. A beautiful, but heavy gun. It was always in "The Bow room", where my grandfather's hand-made bows and arrows were hung, a bear skin rug and collection of weapons and buckskins were. It also served as my two oldest brother's bedroom. There was a bayonet in the room, but I am not sure it was for the 45/70. It actually is an ungainly weapon for it's weight. The windage sight on it was as shown here. My brother said it was a brush gun, meaning brush and small twigs would not significantly deflect the heavy bullet. Lobbing bullets that that sight at maximum might allow could as easily be hip shot once alignment was determined. The shoulder could hardly purchase at that angle. Beautiful sounds operating it, click, click, clack.
Ever fire the 1884?
Excellent video,thanks so much.I have an 1873 so would like to see some info on feeding it.
Yeah this is late but it needs to be stated. I would recommend using only BP. 400 grain lead for carbines, anything to 500 for the Rifle. The 1873 is the weaker action and it was repeatedly upgraded till the 1884 version with a heavier action and breechblock. DO NOT shoot smokeless powder in this rifle and ESPECIALLY not some of the data in loading manuals. I have seen some really scary data for Hodgdon especially. Yes I KNOW this. I been gunsmith specializing in blackpowder arms since the 1960s and was the gunsmith for Shiloh Rifle Manufacturing for several years and also worked for C Sharps for a time. BP (NOT PYRODEX or you WILL damage the rifle) loaded RIGHT is very accurate but its got a learning curve. Contact www.blackpowderspg.com/ for more info and a loading manual.
Very helpful. I am currently looking at one with a split stock around the wrist. Pawn shop is desperate to move it. What would be a good price? Not sure the version until I get a second look. Are stocks easily found and affordable? Had kinda written it off, but now thinking it might be worth the hassle. They are askin $550
great video thank you.
i own a1884 mod springfield carbine it's in great condition buffington rear sight !
I noticed that there is no lanyard ring on that "carbine".
Yes there are commercial copies made by Uberti and H&R.
I had an H&R and hated to sell it to pay medical bills, but it was a great gun and whitetails never knew what hit it, 65 gr of BP in the cartridge and a paper patched 405 gr bullet and Winchester Large Rifle primer. From a rest it shot about 1.5 inch groups at 150 yards with that load. I used to sandbags to hold it in place so I took the human factor out of it.
For the 1873 you could find one of the old hollow base molds and make them out of soft lead and they will bump up easily to the correct size.
I'll probably do that.
I find that it solves a lot of problems and from what I understand matches the construction of the original bullet in the cartridge.
Thank you
What does the VP and the eagle head (between the rear signs and trapdoor) mean?
if it has the eagle head that means it was made at springfield armory ..later years with this rifle not all were made there the eagle head is where it passed QC test and approved for service VP is part of the test showing it was fired and pasted
I wish to hear from someone who has shot both the rifle and the carbine. I wonder how bad is the recoil in Carbine with 22" Barrel?
Great info!!! I've been sorting through my fathers old rifles and came across one of these. I found the number 3968 underneath the hammer. Is that the serial number? Also found a "3" stamped in the stock above the trigger area on the left side and an "8" stamped in at the top rear of the stock (about an inch in fron of the metalbutt plate. On the butt plate there is a US on top and a G334 stamped into the metal on the end. Any help with identification would be appreciated!
Where did y'all get the Springfield 1873 Rifle? Is there a modern manufacturer? Are you interested in selling yours?
decent vedio good show!
I have a problem with my 1873 that if I try and slowly squeeze off a shot it falls into half-cock, but if I aggressively pull back the trigger its fine. I don't have this problem with my 1884 which has a better action IMO. Also I noticed my 1873 has a 3 position tumbler and the 1884 a 2 position tumbler.
Any ideas what is the problem?
I appreciate your videos very much, especially regarding the Martini Henrys.
Not being an expert on the small parts, off hand I'd day it was the tumbler. You can buy replacement tumblers. Ebay is one place that sells parts.
That’s the wrong sight on the carbine. That R on the side indicates Rifle.
Looks to me like the Long rifle but stock has been ground down and exposed thicker metal on the buttplate
If you do see a crack in the breach area, do not continue to fire it.
I want an 1873 carbine.
The 1884 .45-70 Springfield trap door carbine is my favorite long gun of all time
Have you had a trowel bayonet or heard of one?
Carbines still cost more. I wish I had one.
Can I pick your brain about my 1873 carbine
I thought you were going to tell us the differences between the weapons ? You keep calling it an 1873 when nothing on it is 1873. The stock is deeply cut down and not indicative of a "short" stock. You need to read about these weapons and go get yourself a real Model 1873.
All we can legally own here are either single or double barrels shotguns
Halfcan Tan then a good solid single barrel .410 is a gray choice... You can shoot big bore rifle Cartridges out of it. Even without rifling it is very accurate 50 yards but deadly much further out... Look up iraqvet8888 video on the .410 that would not die...
Bro it looks like you’re not believing shotgun or I don’t want to seven