Interesting how many comments are saying, "of course the fathers disagree, that is why we need a magisterium." This pivots away from the original claim to represent the "consensus of the fathers." So my question for Catholics commenting is: which is it? Is purgatory the consensus of the fathers, or the selection of the magisterium?
Dr ortlund why not both? Both the substancial witness of the fathers as well as the magisterium, to serve as a mechanism to definitively settle the matter. The magisterium looks into the mind of the church before making a declaration, not the other way around. Also just curious, even if every single church father disagreed with your beliefs, would it matter to you? In the end scripture( guided by one's interpretation) would be the only infalliable rule of faith, so you could technically just dismiss them all as long as they disagree with your certain interpretive tradition of scripture.
Moreover, its interesting that ALL churches with the exception of the Catholic church (because this is not just Protestant-Catholic issue) disagree with the doctrine of the Purgatory as defined by the Magisterium. Is the Holy Spirit only limited to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church? Does not the Holy Spirit lead the rest of Christendom too? This is just one of many issues you face when you limit the idea of the "true church" to a single institution.
My brothers, Gavin Ortlund raises a very good point. He is trying to demonstrate that the claims of Roman Catholics need to be consistent. At one hand, they are basing claims from the early church fathers while in the other hand, the magisterium bases the claim to purgatory on its own authority. Another question that should be asked is that if the early church fathers aren’t unanimously agreeing on particular doctrines, from Peter’s Rock to the papacy, then how and why did the Roman Catholic church come to those conclusions when there is pretty good evidence to suggest otherwise? After all, the Protestant Reformation also tried pointing and appealing to the early church fathers to protest the RCC.
@@AaronR319 his goal is to refute whatever the “prompt” is. We get the “prompt” from his own statement in the previous video, that he is arguing that the church fathers were not unanimous or even consensus on the concept of purgatory until later. So I think in this context it would be “Catholic Apologists overstepping”.
@@kkvearkeoloji anyone can claim to have the holy spirit guiding them. if the holy spirit leads the rest of christendom (apart from catholicism), how would you account for the contradictory and multiplicity of interpretations of even important things like baptism or the real presence of the eucharist? is the holy spirit leading the people to make contradictory interpretations within christendom? or would u say that the holy spirit is not guiding them then?
Thank you Pastor Gavin for refuting the lie of “being deep in history is to cease being Protestant.” Thank you, for being a living example, that this statement is simply not true.
Why do you say this is not true? Protestantism is how old compared to Catholicism? Why would God allow false teachings to exist for 1500 years only for a man to suddenly discover the truth then that truth to fracture into 30,000 denominations. This will never make sense to me. Also purgatory is logical. There must be a purification for us to exist and retain our free will in a place of perfection.
@@johnbrion4565 because **that's** not true either. We don't contend that he allowed the whole church to fall into apostasy for 1500 years and then suddenly come back all at once. As Calvin even said "The Roman church is not the true church, but within her are many true churches". We do not have 30,000 denominations, even if we did the differences are between ancilliary issues not issues in which we would not recognize each other as fellow Christians. We recognize that many catholics, orthodox, anglicans, and many other non-reformed Christians will be with us in heaven and happily call them brothers. Of course it doesn't make sense because it's a strawman. And human beings are not free. We are creatures with subordinate wills that will according to our natures; either the Spirit or the flesh. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness set free from sin. Purgatory challenges the sovereignty of God and the extent to which we are saved by Christ which Hebrews describes as "to the uttermost". ALL of our sin is atoned for to the uttermost by Christ. There is nothing left for us to atone for or be purified from: we have been saved by Christ.
@@Collidedatoms well where did all your beliefs come from? Send me a book on all the true churches within the Catholic Church for 1500 years. And saying we have no free will is just an insane statement. You can hide behind your fancy theological phrases but in the real world humans act. If someone punches you in the face you’ll be mad at them. You won’t say eh it’s ok God just made you to punch me in the face. Again, Protestants want a cheap grace where they don’t have to participate in God’s grace and plan for the world. You want to believe Jesus did all the work for you. This is untrue and unbiblical. Faith and works to hand and hand and God wants us to continually grow in holiness. Not be lazy and say thanks Jesus you did all the work now I’ll chill and praise you. I’ll be a decent person and then go to heaven after this life because you did all the work. Makes not sense. God does not want a bunch of robots in heaven.
@@Collidedatoms also have you ever thought maybe Calvin was wrong? He’s just one person. And a lot of people like you who were card carrying calvinists have come to believe he was wrong and become Catholic. Two well know. Former Calvinist’s, Scott Hahn and John Bergsma. You can’t accuse them of not knowing the Bible theology or church history. You should listen to their conversion stories because it could mean everything. If you listen and still feel they are wrong well then you’ve lost nothing.
@@johnbrion4565 I think a misunderstanding many catholics have about protestants is that we follow the teachings of the "protestant church" as catholics follow "the Roman Catholic church" not true. Protestantism emphasizes the authority of scripture over traditions of men. The reason for there being many true churches even in catholicism is their faith in Christ. The Roman catholic church does not save anyone. The authority of church fathers cannot spare a soul from hell. Jesus saves. Jesus is our rock and our foundation and there is no salvation without him. Before anyone is an anglican or catholic or lutheran or anything. They need to be a follower of Jesus Christ, they need to revere him as God who came down in the flesh, and they must understand that by faith in him they have been freed from sin and death. Is the real importance knowing Bible theology and church history? Did Jesus say the greatest commandment is your depth of knowledge in theology? No. The greatest commandment is love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Then to love your neighbor as yourself. It's evident that Jesus as our rock and our foundation is the most important stuff for Christians, and fellowship with him is above all other things. So emphasize that more.
I try hard to take Trent Horn as a serious commentator but the way he constantly misrepresent others (Gavin , Mike Winger, etc) saying completely misleading information and things they never said make it very hard for me. Thanks again for the great labor pastor Gavin
No joke him and fradd. Both do nothing but straw man and misrepresent It's really uncharitable. Fradd really aggravated me with pragur. Pragur repeatedly said he doesn't like porn. He said. He didn't consider nudity porn and Funny enouph is very scriptura on masterbation. It's not in bible. Fradd then spent the rest of the debate misrepresenting pragur. And pragur even said lust wasn't understood in o.t. but coveting was. Then fradd with shapiro actually called lust covetness... lol. He literal ly moved goal
@Sm64wii 1) I have zero equipment to make a a youtube. I've never even made a vid. To talk about the shows and books I like let alone a debate. 2) I'm still reading my Bible. I just know how to listen to arguments. 3) I have no access to the patriatics. All I can do is listen to multiple sides. Of a argument over things. And determine where the best argument lies. IF I HAD ALL THE BOOKS THE CATHESIM IN FRONT OF ME THAT I COULD QOUTE I WOULD. AND I WOULD ENJOY IT. ID DEBATE THE POPE. ON STAGE GIVEN THE OPURTUNITY. but as it stands finding the quotes and cathesism and info on the official sexual conduct canon(I believe the plentitudes) Is hard very hard. Instead of debating these people using info from a 3rd hand source saying these sources say. I'd like to have the actuall first hand source. It would be wonderful if there was a free place on there vuanted catholic answers. Where it would give a run down of every rule and when it was put out. I.e. I posses a chart from a site that says the catholics say. It's a run down of the medivel sex rules. It says the catholics say(I'd like to have this from the catholics) so I have the receipts as it were. I've been trying to find the official I can find it in pieces. But this chart says it banned sex on several days out of year. Banned it for about half week every week. All said about 5 months of year. They at least according to the third party sight quoted pages of books I myself have not read. 1 I'm not disrespectful enouph to argue a point unless I have the verbatim. Proof of it.
@sonicrocks2007 you mean a few out of context verses this corrupt organization says mean other things. But for the sake of thoroughly discussing care to share your handful of verses that mean something else. Also care to provide a example of him moving the goal post. A example of a goal post move is how leftoid democrates continue to try and remove 1st amendment... They'll say the founders didn't want guns. In citizen hands. When u prove that wrong they'll say they only knew about single shot musket. When you prove there were semi auto back then(belton flintlock.) They'll say let's use those then. When u prove they anticipated new invention they fall back to removing a right from the constitution To get there way... Care to point out how gavins arguments have done anything more than present scripture and church history to prove that it's a tradition and nothing more. Unless you can provide those two things I'm gonna count your comment as a troll
As a former Catholic turned Protestant who's been on a journey of looking into the early church and figuring out what that means for my faith, I really appreciate your videos, Dr. Ortlund. The version of church history I had gathered from Protestantism, while not necessarily explicitly stated, was that there was Paul and the Apostles, maybe a generation or so after them, and then we just skip to Luther, Calvin, and maybe Hus. It's nice having a Protestant perspective on this channel that's not completely disconnected from church history. I also greatly appreciate both you and Trent Horn for your charitable way of handling these issues of disagreement. It's so refreshing, and it makes both of your channels some of my favorites. I'd love to see a dialogue between the two of you. Keep up the good work!
As a cradle Protestant who is converted 23 plus years ago to Catholicism I am really sorry to see that you failed the Lord feeling you benefit from Dr. Ortlunds bible butchering and the Protestant hersey 1500 plus years after Christ! I pray for you!
@@deusvult2302I pray you find and practice the love of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That’s how we’re supposed to treat one another. Even Trent would tell you this after seeing what you wrote. We can disagree but we are all part of Christs Body, and His body goes beyond just one institution. His Church refers to all of us who believe in the Gospel, have Faith in Jesus, and use the scriptures to guide our life. I’d recommend you read the Word more and see what it says about how we Christians are supposed to act, especially towards one another. Also read Titus 3:9-11 “But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and striving about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self condemned.” I say this all out of love brother! I see you commented this 2 years so I sincerely hope you’ve had a change of heart since then. I pray God works in your life, I’m not here to judge you but as Believers we can judge based on the Fruits of the Spirit or lack there of.. I sincerely hope He works in your life and all of our lives! We must all humble ourselves and strive to truly love one another. 🙏✝️🙏
Dr. Ortlund - I appreciate when you pointed out how Trent did not frame your argument well up front. RC interlocutors are accustomed to comparing “my tradition verses your tradition,” and assuming Protestants need to, (or desire to), find the same monolithic support from the fathers that they claim. That “my tradition verses your tradition” default mode seems to have seeped in a little and kept Trent from framing his response in a way that fully interacted with your position. As I read the comments, I notice many of the commenters making the same mistake over and over again. Roman Catholic interlocutors assume you are arguing for a specific Protestant position. They fail to see that you are arguing the case of diversity among the church fathers on the topic of purgatory, NOT that the early church majority opinion on the matter was the contemporary Protestant position. We would get so much further down the road if we could listen and respond well to other people’s arguments. Many Roman Catholics could very well agree with everything you have said and still find zero issues affirming the doctrine of Purgatory taught by the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church on the grounds of authority and doctrinal development. Great summary and I appreciate the continued dialogue and your labor in the process.
Yes. That was my observation. In my quest for truth, this side stepping of the argument presented means I lose trust for e.g. Trent. Gavin doesn't do that. He addresses each question and also includes his uncertainty measures. Trent always appears fully confident. I find that suspicious too. How much is Trent seeking truth and how much is he merely seeking to find evidence to support his beliefs?
I've tried to express this base miscommunication before to people, but you explained it (in my perception) perfectly. There's an adage that says that even if we trained a Lion how to speak we'd still never be able to understand eachother because our minds work so differently. The boiled down point is that if you're coming from conceptual foundations that are too different speaking the same language isn't going to help. Remembering that has helped me to learn when to stop having a conversation when I'm able to see that misunderstandings are (at the time) too great for us to rectify no matter how mutually curious and in good-faith I am with another party. It's okay to shake hands and know hat we're missing something the other party believes that's a preconception so engrained that they don't even perceive it themselves. If anyone has an idea of how to discern what preconceptions can get in the way or questions to ask to help us figure it out or conversation formats that lend them selves to exposing those ideas we take for granted but end up getting in the way of mutual understanding and clear communication, I'd really love to hear it and learn. I'm sorry if I got wordy and confusing.
Thank you for videos like these. There was a time in 2020 and 2021 where content from Trent’s channel as well as Matt Fradd’s “Pints With Aquinas” channel was persuading a lot of professing Protestants, and the only more influential pushback was coming from occasional videos like Mike Winger or James White’s channels. It’s nice to see a channel like this one that gives very charitable and nuanced responses. With videos like these, Trent is going to have to break his “I don’t respond to rebuttal videos” rule more and more. 👍🏼 Great work.
I am a Catholic and really enjoyed the way in which you approached and articulated the discussion! Your engagement is kind and gentle as St.Peter taught we should in such matters. God Bless you
Purgatory cheapens the cross. If sin is not fully paid for on the cross by Christ, then purgatory makes sense, because the remittance of sin needs to be dealt with due to the insufficiency of the power of God. But if God is sovereign, and all powerful then the death of his son, his angel, should be enough for the covering of the sin of all mankind. The onces for all sacrifice for all. The very nature of the sacrifice of Christ is to justify the wicked man. The ungodly man. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; If sin is not counted against you through salvation, then what is there to purify? There’s either a finished work IN Christ or there isn’t. Additionally, the finished work does not apply to the flesh it applies to the spirit. And if sin, according to Romans resides only in the flesh, then how does sin come with you to be purified in the spirit?
Thanks, Dr. Ortland! You did a fantastic job of organizing your thoughts and arguments. The main problem (IMO) with the Catholic concept of post mortem purification, is that it seems to assume that the atonement was, in certain ways, insufficient from God's point of view, and that OUR suffering needs to be added to the suffering, bloodshed, and death of Jesus on the cross...to make us acceptable to God in heaven. It could very easily be viewed as an attack on the sufficiency and the perfection of the atonement.
I totally agree with what you said and a further question from that is why the atonement isn't totally sufficient in their view,. I believe it is because of their view of justification being infused righteousness,. This makes righteousness intrinsic to themselves which through sin the grace that enables them to be further justified is lost. This means most Catholics at the end of theirs lives will lack enough righteousness to enter heaven. Purgatory then becomes vital because without it all would end up in hell.
Correct, this drives me nuts the death of Christ on the cross is enough! All our works are filthy rags, there is nothing we can do to earn grace or else it wouldn't be grace.
I always thought that purgatory was just silly and never really gave it more thought than that. However you are absolutely correct the moment the first drop of Jesus's precious blood hit the ground at calvary that the debt had been paid. More than sufficiently
To be deep in history to to cease to be a Roman Catholic. It’s easy to make claims, it is much harder to substantiate them. Thank you for consistently showing that Reformed thought is thoroughly founded on scripture and the early church. The true church. The stripping away of the accretions over centuries and a return to the true faith.
Except he is being deceitful. he mentions reading Purgatorial fires. Which he admits to reading the church fathers. Is about day of the lord passages. Where some are passed, some purified, some destroyed. It is associated with pain and purification. Funny how Ortland skipped like 20 verses he didn't bring this up once.
As a fan of both of yours and someone trying to decide where I fall in the church, I'm finding Trent's regular failure to properly represent the other side concerning. Thank you for your time and concern in addressing this.
Im over a year late with this comment but I just watched your initial "Purgatory: a protestant perspective". I really appreciated all the study/work you did and how you presented the info. I do my own self study regarding these topics for my own edification but your info added a lot to my limited study and filled gaps of knowledge I didn't know I had. I also listened to some of Trent's videos to challenge my theology (I grew up Baptist/non-denominational, wife grew up Catholic). I have not yet listened to his initial response video but ill be listening to your response to Trent. Please don't stop making videos despite the seemingly low number of views as compared to other Christian youtubers. You're a diamond in the rough for protestants and I share your videos to friends and family.
I’ve noticed that you are very gracious and kind even when engaging with those you disagree with. A true mark of a believer! I watched Pastor Mike Winger rebut Trent horn as well and I’ve come to the conclusion that Trent horn can only refute arguments he misrepresents first. Praying for his eyes to be opened to the truth of Christ alone.
How did trent misrepresent mike's arguments? Mike's arguments even at their best arent sufficient. Trent doesnt need to misrepresent them to refute them.
You came to the conclusion after watching Mike Winger rebut Trent Horn. I would ask that you watch Trent Horn's final rebuttal to Mike Winger to make a final determination on who is misrepresenting who. Obviously Mike Winger will say Trent and misrepresenting him and Trent will say Mike is misrepresenting him, but don't just watch Mike's side and assume everything he says is accurate.
@The Hesychast quite the opposite, Albrecht was hostile and nasty towards Gavin and several Catholics even commented how uncharitable Albrecht was towards Dr. Ortlund.
Thank you for another charitable response! Coming from a Catholic convert, you are by far my favorite Protestant out there to listen to. Can’t wait for when you two engage in dialogue!
You’ve expressed that the goal of your videos and your channel is to “move the conversation forward. I think it’s safe to say successfully well done! I look forward to your conversation with Trent - I hope you achieve great strides in common understanding.
If purgatory were true there would really be no need for Christ's death and ressurection. We could have just believed in Jesus in some sense and then had our sins purged in Purgatory for however long that was needed. Jesus carried all of our sins or he carried none of them. If we are in Christ it is his righteousness imputed to us apart from our own. We are already cleansed in our born again inner man. Once we leave our flesh we leave behind the sinful unclean part of us instantly. Thats why Paul tells us you WERE washed, you WERE cleansed.
@@roses993 nor is ortland. Purgatorial fires. Which he admits to reading the church fathers. Is about day of the lord passages. Where some are passed, some purified, some destroyed. It is associated with pain and purification. Funny how Ortland skipped like 20 verses he didn't like
I made it to the end ;) Good video for sure. If you and Trent are able to have a sit down, something casual and less "debate oriented" I think that'd be awesome!
Dr Gavin is definitely a worthy interlocutor, he is very charitable and puts forwards very substantiative arguments. The discussion he had on the Papacy on Gospel simplicity channel, was very refreshing to me as a Catholic. However I do think, he does over nuance historical writings to the point of detracting from the essence of the writer's message. A head to head dialogue with Trent will be highly appreciated. Peace be with you all. #Proudlycatholic
Maybe I am mischaracterizing, but it seems that the framework of many Catholics is “because the Magisterium states X, the church father recognized as saints must be read through the context of X as truth, therefore all quotes that seem to say otherwise must be tectonically wrong”. It’s not explicitly stated as such, but the technicalities many Catholics will go to at length to tease out every minor way the father could possibly have not been saying what a plain reading of the text seems to say. This seems to me a bulletproof wall built around a glass house. All history must be read through the lens of the modern Magisterium. Impenetrable logical structure around a flimsy historical record.
What they are doing is constructing the Oral Tradition Paul talks about in Thessalonians. Scripture itself is tradition and you are safe with it because the Catholic church decided most of it in 400 AD and you just came to accept it like the Apostle's creed. You should aspire to argue well like the way Catholic apologists do, read Church Fathers etc
I wouldn't say Catholicism has flimsy historical.record, as you say. And I don't think Dr Ortlund would say that based on this video. Based on my reading of the Fathers, the particular Protestantism doctrines have a flimsier historical basis.
@@MrWoaaaaah maybe flimsy is a bad word. More so I mean to say that history does not unanimously prove Catholic doctrines as it is often claimed to do so. But instead I just see most Catholics being unwilling to concede even a single quote. They “technically” maneuver around everything. It makes it much much harder for a non Catholic such as my self to entertain the tradition as true, because of the seemed unwillingness to recognize the difficulty of historical studies. It feels disingenuous sometimes.
@@koppite9600 I would say arguing well is not aspirational, finding and accepting truth is. And it seems to be many Catholics would rather go to their grave before they release even a single quote from the church fathers from their grasp. Some things just have a plain reading, and when I am constantly being told “those words don’t mean what you think they mean”, or “well technically he didn’t mean that”, or “he never explicitly denied or rejected it”. It begins to feel disingenuous and contrived. Like they are gaslighting me. Reading a modern RCC framework back into history.
@@mattwebb563 ok then. Make it priority to find the successor of Peter since he heads the church of St Peter which Christ promised you will not see the gates of Hades. Find that and relax.
I made it through to the end great video! I love your grasp of church history. Again you show how this was not Universally taught and understood from the beginning. Most importantly for me it is nowhere taught in the New Testament and it is contrary to the gospel of grace. And thankfully you do everything in the spirit of Christ likeness, meekness, and humility. Which is winsome.
Dr. Gavin, Excellent videos, both your first one and this one. A big problem with Purgatory, historically, is that for centuries it was taught that people go there for years, decades, even centuries and that the RCC used this to motivate people to go fight in the Crusades vs. Muslims (1095-1299) and fight other heretics and so there is a time element of suffering in Purgatory along with the indulgences, etc. that was only brought out clearly by Luther and his protest vs. the selling of indulgences. so from the 1100s to 1500s and beyond even, the time element was there. Many for centuries, and just to name one, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (even after Trent - he died in 1621) and others taught time is spent in purgatory. This is the issue that opened up more and more discussion and debate that eventually led to Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura and the Protestant Reformation. Although modern RCC apologetics denies a time element to purgatory, the fact that for centuries people were deceived about this is a major issue. What are some good sources on the teachings of Purgatory for centuries was about spending time in purgatory suffering in satis passio ? (years, decades, centuries, etc.) The only one I know of is Purgatory, by X. F. Schoop, (Jesuit)
@@donhaddix3770 ya if you delete the Bible. However when you read about the day of the lord..which Ortland forgets. You read first it futuristic. Second it brings purification, it is painful and some are destroyed others passed through and other cleansed. Etc there is over 20 verses about the day of the lord. And way more verses and parable that indicate post death cleansing and even post death punishment. He goes over zero and doesn't mention day of the lord.
Many thanks once again Gavin. Watched fully once, going to do so again (PS Hope Santa bought you a bigger battery and may your mic/audio always work first time)
Hello Dr. Gavin. I’m Catholic and I’m glad to see your charitable approach when engaging this topics. Please consider to invite Dr. Brant Pitre on the Papacy or any other topic. Regards,
Scripture may hint at our works will be tested by fire, but Scripture is also clear in that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and that "... by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified..."
Regarding this doctrine of purgatory, the last statement at the end of this video from Catholic scholar Brian Daley is honest and fair about the lack agreement among the patristic fathers AND ecumenical discussions of the middle ages and post Reformation West. It seems that the "because I (the Catholic Church) said so" argument holds no weight in determining truth among believers. Because of this, Catholic apologists have to appeal to twisting the wording of many church fathers to make purgatory sound more unanimous. They no longer can appeal to the Magisterium's authority because the nature of this doctrine is questionable in light of Christ's finished work on the cross. Naturally, many people will be hesitant to accept this belief on "because I said so". That's why the final authority CANNOT be fallible men, contradictory church fathers and Popes. Their authority literally means nothing to people who's consciences are bound the very Words of God in Scripture. Since only God knows what happens to souls when they die, why not take his word for it rather than man's words? God knew their would be points of lesser essential doctrine that are unclear and that's why He had Paul write Romans chapter 14 that deals with "disputable matters". God had no concept of an infallible authority to determine these secondary matters among Jew and Gentile (eating meat sacrificed to idols, drinking wine, observing the Sabbath, etc.). God told Paul to tell us that on these secondary matters, "Each should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5). However, this does not apply to salvific matters such as how we are saved and how much (if any) works or suffering is done on our part for salvation (see Romans 4:4-5 cf Romans 11:6 & Ephesians 2:8-10; Ephesians 1:13-14). According to God, works or suffering added to Christ's suffering NULLIFY His work ON SINNERS BEHALF. He says if salvation is "by grace then it is no longer of works, otherwise, GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE" (Romans 11:6). Don't you see that this easily extends to post mortem suffering? If it's necessary to suffer to "expiate" sins as Catholic doctrine teaches, then what sins did Jesus Expiate? If Jesus didn't die for all sins (past, present, AND FUTURE), then He's not a complete Savior and we have to finish saving ourselves by our works and post mortem suffering. Besides ALL this, what else would God mean when He said in 2 Corinthians 5:8, "To be absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord". To further hammer the nail in purgatory's coffin we have the poor man in Luke 16:22-31 taken immediately to the Kingdom of God seated next to Abraham at the great feast (leaning on His bosom as many ancient people did when they reclined at dinner - Cf. Matt. 8:11; John 13:23). We also have the thief on the cross given Jesus promise to be with Him immediately in Paradise without post mortem cleansing. Has any Catholic ever stopped to wonder why God had this incident of a death-bed salvation with promise of IMMEDIATE entrance to peaceful glory recorded for the church? IT WAS TO GIVE US REAL COMFORT! I am a firefighter and I'm about to undergo a brutal bit of fire training that only lasts 25 minutes yet makes me very nervous and fretful. Catholic friend, Can you imagine burning or suffering of any kind for 500 years or even one year after your death?! You can cry to your heavenly Father all you want but He's the one (in your theology) demanding second payment for your sins - once at Jesus hand and another at yours! This is double jeopardy and not Biblical. Trust is Christ alone for your full and complete salvation. Then in gratitude and love for Him, live completely for Him. If you sin, it's already paid for BUT you will have hurt your relationship and want to restore it as a Spirit-born Christian - not to get Saved again, but to reconcile a hurt relationship (see John 13:10 Cf 1 John 1:8-9 and 1 John 3:6-9).
3 weeks ago if you had told me I'd be on the edge of my seat with anticipation waiting for a response video on purgatory, I'd have not believed you. Even the comments are more interesting and informative than most other channels I subscribe to. And yes, I did just respond to my own comment
I really hope you two do a non-debate chat about this. I think it would be awesome. Both of you have so much charity in your hearts and really care without the virtriol.
@@Adam-ue2ig don't think so dude. For example (with all due respect) Dr Gavin claim that Augustine taught Sola Scriptura but we read his letters (in context) we'll fine that's not true. The same goes to his claim regarding purgatory and i personally think that Trent and William did in fact refuted Gavin's claims.
@@calson814 I don't think so dude, Dr. Gavin pointed out in very specific ways how Trent misrepresented his position and introduced several categories with much nuance that Trent just brushed over to paint a picture that these Fathers believed something synonymous with Purgatory as later defined by Rome.
@@calson814 Sola Scriptura was a different videos and topics...Dr. Ortlund introduced 5 categories in this purgatory video and was very detailed showing how much of what is claimed for church history evidence of purgatory is not in fact synonymous with purgatory.
Thanks for a charitable response. However, the biggest difference between you and Trent Horn is not different sources or possibly not even depth of research but rather your understanding of the "Why?" behind all Church teaching. Your referencing of the Trent (the council) clearly demonstrates this. When Trent (the council) deals with temporal punishment it is specifically dealing with sanctification that is denied by the doctrine of faith alone. It does not define what the purgatorial temporal punishment is, that can be understood as merely the temporal separation of the soul from complete unity with God which would be a form of suffering. And this definitely fits within the "minimalistic" definition of purgatory that Trent Horn presents
Been reading a book called "Regnum Caelorum", which I definitely recommend. The reason I mention it is because the thesis is relevant here; the chiliasts of the early church did not believe men went straight to Heaven when they died; instead they went to Abraham's Bosom in Hades and would receive their reward in the Millennial Kingdom. Purgatory would have evolved out of a distortion of this already unbiblical doctrine. The apostolic fathers (Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Epistle to Diognetus, Didache, Pseudo-Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas) all believed that all Christians go immediately to Heaven (which was important to the thesis of the book, as some chiliasts believed only martyrs went directly to Heaven), as the book shows, demonstrating their amillennialism, so this also counters claims they believed in purgatory. Again, highly recommend the book; great historical scholarship.
@@williamrice3052 Yeah. The idea is that the premillennialists believed that Christians still go to Abraham's Bosom at death (hence they receive their reward in the earthly millennium), whereas the amillennialists believed in a ravishing of Sheol at Christ's ascension, so that all Christians go immediately to Heaven when they die. Irenaeus noted this connection between one's belief about the post-mortem destination of Christians and one's view of the millennium in his time, so the book works off that premise.
It seems like those that claim universal affirmation of purgatory take any language that alludes to a post-Mortem cleansing or even post-mortem waiting and classify it all as purgatory. I think that's disingenuous. There are many Protestants that affirm a post-mortem waiting, but wouldn't classify it as the Catholic understanding of purgatory.
Recasting the concept that vaguely shoehorns in all Christians who believe the final stages of sanctification are post mortem. And most Christians believe this. But using that level of indistinction makes the entire issue disappear. So it obfuscates the debate.
@@tonywallens217 I could be wrong though - there may be a denomination that does recognize a post-mortem waiting, and if there is, I'm just unaware of it
Everyone has different ways of defending their faith, his character is definitely more rustic. But you have to remember he has dealt with these same arguments before and seems to be getting annoyed of the church fathers from 2000 years ago being quoted as if they held Protestant beliefs, sorry but there are little alike between the two
@@cyprianofcarthage6890 I appreciate your opinion. But currently I am convinced that William does not season his speech with grace, treat others with respect, and is trying to accurately represent the person he disagrees with.
gavin insults people. he does it with a calm tone and mixed with honey. the deal is that gavin can't address william's arguments. william even exegeted the greek. and he provided scholarly work from numerous sources. if gavin can't even get mark of ephesus right i can't take him seriously.
This was a great review, Dr. O. I tried listening to Trent's presentation but only have so much time in the day. I find Trent bright and congenial, even if I disagree. Looking forward to the actual engagement with Trent. One thing I noticed that kept coming up, and I think is a deeper point is the presupposition Trent holds which is the authority of the Magisterium of the Church to infallibility define Rome's dogmas and to teach with certainty its doctrines. There is a great book called "The Pope and the Professor" on the life of Johann Ignaz von Dollinger and his dispute with Pius IX at Vatican I on Papal Infallibility. The most important concept from the book was "does the Church judge history or history the Church?". I think it'd be cool to see you and Trent debate either Apostolic Succession or Papal Infallibility.
For me 2 Corinthians 5:21 is possibly the best Bible Verse for refuting purgatory. It was ALL of our sins for ALL of Jesus righteousness. When you also put the verse together with many other verses that state it was “once for all” and that our sins “will be remembered no more” we know that all our sins were imputed on to Jesus and all his righteousness was imputed on to us. RC through purgatory is saying either Jesus didn’t pay for all of the sins of the whole world that’s why we still have to be purified or it’s saying that Jesus righteousness isn’t enough to purify us once for all and we still have to be purified.
Hi Gavin! I much appreciate you continuing your discussion here on purgatory by responding to Trent's response video. I have enjoyed this discussion. I appreciated your clarification in regards to how Trent framed your video. Both your views are a bit more clear to me now with both your comments and both your responses. I am looking forward to hopefully hearing you both discuss more and I hope you guys get to do it in person. Appreciate the work you are putting into this.
My fiancé was raised Catholic and the idea of choosing a church with me was (and is) still confusing and a little stressful to him because of a feeling that denomination matters, and that he'd be marrying into whatever beliefs that denomination holds. I tried to express that denominations are meaningless other than being shorthand for clear communication about what things that specific group believes. What denomination you go to doesn't matter as long as the church itself is teaching the clear gospel and puts God and the Bible first. What is genuinely recommended is that you look up Mike Winger's video on how to choose a church and check out some of his Q&As about what makes a healthy church and an unhealthy church so you can learn what is and isn't a good reason to go to a church or to leave a church. Then start going to different churches in your area (I personally recommend spending 2-3 weeks at each church so you can see patterns and their traditions and not make a quick judgment based off limited perspective) until you find a church that speaks truth and is intent on fostering Christian community. Whatever denomination you happen to be at that has he gospel correct, doesn't have red flags, has God and the Bible first, and has an eye for community, then let that be your church and your community. Ignore the denomination on the sign for the most part. You can know things about their beliefs by the name in the sign, but you don't know if they're healthy, gospel-focused Christians until you're inside. Don't get hung up on denomination which could cause you to choose a dying, self-centered Baptist church instead of a gospel-focused Presbyterian. The 10 minute Bible Hour helped me learn about denominations in a lovely way, and Mike Winger helped me understand why the traditions that "separate" us are meaningless as long as the gospel isn't tampered with. If the gospel is good, the church is good
@@bufficliff8978 One of the most paramount issues of importance to me in a church is seeing souls saved. If your church has a good soul winning ministry, God is blessing that church.
Good video. However, although historically interesting, the debate between you and Trent as to how to read the meaning of various Church fathers is ultimately something of a red herring (for a Catholic). I would simply view the divergent views as permitted theological opinions...until they weren't. In other words, a case of both development of doctrine and how the magisterium works. Eventually, the magisterium defined a number of essential elements (i.e. "definitive"). And even an understanding of those defined elements can be developed in a deeper way (i.e Cardinal Ratzinger's speculation that the fire can be an existential fire and the punitive and purgative aspects are a unity- thus upholding the "fire" but also understanding it in a way that could be a bridge to Mark of Ephesus's views. Same with his nuanced view of what constitutes punishment - which seems both realistic and orthodox to me). I have no problem with praying for souls in purgatory or indulgences(properly understood) - none of which are "anti-gospel" which is often the charge. Should they be "required" beliefs - yes if one wants to be joined to the Holy Mother Church.
I think this is a much more reasonable way to try to defend the doctrine than that sometimes taken by Catholic apologists. However I still think the absence of any early attestation is a problem, and that defining Purgatory so broadly so as to include Mark of Ephesus’ view starts to strain credulity at some point.
Trent Horn has a habit of misrepresenting the arguments of the people he rebuts, he did the same thing with one of Mike Winger's videos. I hope it's not intentional.
Thank you so much for your videos Dr Ortlund, really thankful and blessed by your gentle, wise and gracious but still very deep engagement with Catholic doctrines - God really is using you! I'm not sure if you'll see this comment as you released this video a year ago now but in this video, you briefly mentioned the Catholic argument about doctrine development, and how they use the Incarnation and the Trinity to prove that doctrine has to be 'developed' or 'articulated' etc and thus they used the same argument for purgatory (and many other doctrines). How can we distinguish these? Are we actually the ones picking and choosing and how can we as Protestants argue/show that we're not? I would really love to hear your perspective on this (or even a video if you have time) - Thanks so much and God bless!
Thats actually how Trent Horn does his rebuttals. He did the same thing with Mike Winger. Your statements will be stretched to fit how his claims look correct.
I think ortlunds statement is pretty clear, and so are wingers, neither Trent or anyone can stretch their arguments because they are already ready to burst from hyperextension
Mike Wingers arguments are typically not very good. I like Dr. Ortlund a lot more even though I disagree with the vast majority of his interpretations of the fathers.
Dr. Ortlund mentioned we shouldn't conflate the fathers. The point is that the Fathers did believe in post-death purification. Dr. Ortlund did mention about the belief that everyone enters into heaven immediately. That is the core of the argument. Protestants believe there is no post-mortem purification when the early fathers did believe in one.
hello, thanks for all the comments! Did you watch the video? The bulk of it was working through five categories of example of how the fathers clearly did *not* believe in postmortem purification. Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Ephrem, Aphraht, Cyprian, John Chrysostom, etc. I'm trying to understand your comment and wondering if you watched?
@@TruthUnites Hello Dr. Ortlund, Thank you for reaching out to me. I did watch the video, and I was not convinced by the explanations you gave. Some of them I felt were overlooking key points in the fathers’ writings. Some of the writings you quoted I felt were not at odds with purgatory. For instance, you looked at St. Cyprian's letter 55 starting at 22:00. You said the context of the letter is about readmitting the lapse Christians into the Church. Trent said something similar to that in his video response. However, he did make parallelism in his writing where there is purification after death. You said in 22:26 that interpreting a continuation of the penitential process is reading into what Cyprian said because he never said that. The early fathers never said Holy Trinity and three persons sharing one divine nature, but the language is there. Likewise, the language of post-death purification is there. In the first portion of section 20, Cyprian is alluding to repentance on earth. However, he shifted and said it one thing to be CLEANSED from sin by being PURGED BY FIRE. He also said they will be purged by all sin by suffering. I seriously doubt St. Cyprian is talking about a lapsed Christian on earth getting purged by fire when they return to the Church. Cyprian continues to say some wait until the last judgment and some receive rewards immediately. That is a clear sign that some people go through a purification process after death.
@@TruthUnites The other writings of Cyprian you pointed to didn't address anything about purgatory or everyone going into Heaven immediately. You cited St. Cyprian Treatise and pointed languages that point to people going into Heaven immediately. That doesn't mean there is no purification process. Everyone who goes to Heaven is a friend of God regardless of whether they have to go through purgatory or not. Everyone receives a divine reward regardless of whether a person goes through purgatory or not. You emphasized the phrase “in a moment” in Cyprian’s treatise. That doesn't mean there isn't a purification process. That process may be only a moment, and the person enters into Heaven. The Catholic Church never said how long the process is because there is no concept of time in purgatory. You also quoted a writer on Cyprian’s commentary saying the criteria for entry into Heaven are an unspoiled faith and an unharmful mind. That doesn't mean Cyprian doesn't believe in a purification process. That is saying nothing unclean enters into Heaven. Purgatory is getting rid of the stains so you can enter unspoiled and unharmful. You referenced Cyprian Mortality writing and talked about Christian hope. You read we passed by death into immortality, and we will not hasten to better things. That doesn't mean there is no purification process after death, and Cyprian never alluded to anything about entering into Heaven immediately. As you said, Cyprian talked to Christians about Christian hope. That is not at odds with purgatory because the people who go through purgatory have obtained Heaven. They have to clean up before entering Heaven. You also mentioned in the writing that death is a departure and a translation to the abode of Christ. Again, nothing that was said is against purgatory. Everyone in purgatory is going to the abode of Christ. St. Cyprian never focused on the immediate entry or purification process. He simply stated people are going to Heaven.
@@TruthUnites Towards the end, you equated Christian hope with immediate entry into Heaven. As a result, you claimed that it is at odds with purgatory. This is the biggest stretch out of this portion of the video. Purgatory doesn't take away any hope in going into Heaven. Hoping to go into Heaven doesn't mean you will immediately go into Heaven Your surgery analogy at 27:50 supports purgatory. The doctor putting the patient to sleep is analogous to the Christian dying. The patient at once opened their eyes to health is analogous to Heaven. The surgery is purgatory. The patient went through a process and open their eyes to good health. purgatory can be considered a moment because there is no concept of time in purgatory. The issue with your metaphor is that you said the patient have months of pain after opening their eyes to health. That is not purgatory. After the purification process through purgatory, there will be no more pain. They have entered into Heaven after purgatory. There is no more temporal punishment and suffering lost after going through purgatory.
@@TruthUnites If you are going to emphasize language, you can't overlook the language of being PURGED OF SIN THROUGH FIRE, being cleansed by fire, and being in suspense until the final judgment. He said those words in letter 51. While mentioning lapse Christians coming into the faith, he did shift his attention to what happened after death to some people the end of section
Great pick going with Trent. He’s one of the best RC apologist and is thoughtful about what he says. I enjoy his work a lot more than self appointed amateur RUclips Roman Catholic apologist.
Will Most. Trent is just a very good liar trained by the best liars and deceivers of Romanism. But lies is no match against Christians who see right through his attempts to deceive. Unfortunately, Catholic people have no hope of recognising these lies because they don't know the Lord and have no Spiritual understanding of the Bible. But we will continue to try and help Catholics by preaching the Gospel truth. That's our duty
@@parrisroy So, let me get this straight, only those who agree with your interpretation of scripture know the Lord and have Spiritual understanding, the rest are liars and deceivers? Take that all you other Protestants! You need to listen to and follow A True Saint. 2C15-21 to be saved!
I don’t think Trent is a liar and I can’t speak to his motives. He seems to genuinely believe what he believes. He is always good natured and charitable which is more than I can say for these comments. I will say that when it comes to some of the unique claims of Rome most RC apologist go into used care salesman mode to defend some of their more untenable claims. It seems to be built in to their apologetics. But I do not think Trent is an intentional deceiver. I have a lot of respect for him. I’m a staunch confessional Lutheran so I’m not defending Rome but I think Trent is a brother in Christ and tho he may be wrong on some things I will treat him with the same respect I would give to any other Christian. I don’t buy into the typical my team vs your team RUclips polemical sandbox. My alma mater is a Dominican school so please spare me generalizations. I’ve met some great Catholic Christians that would put many Protestants I know to shame in their charity and devotion to Jesus. These sweeping generalizations and putting Catholics outside the faith is just silly.
For clarity, I will now quote the exact text from 2nd Maccabees that the belief in Purgatory stems from: "On the following day, since the need had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to collect the bodies of those who had fallen and to bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. However, under the tunic of each of the dead, they found amulets that were sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. Thus it was clear to everyone that this was the reason that these men had been slain. And so they all praised the acts of the Lord, the just judge who reveals things that are hidden, and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be completely blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, since they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as a result of the sin of those who had fallen. Then he took up a collection from all of his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this, he acted in a suitable and honorable way, guided by his belief in the resurrection. For if he had not expected those who had fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. However, if he was focusing on the splendid reward reserved for those whose death was marked by godliness, his thought was holy and devout. Therefore, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead so that they might be delivered from their sin." That's it. That's the whole thing. That's the primary foundation of Purgatory's existence, amoung a few other things. From this short account of a Hellenized Jew making a monetary offering for the dead, the Catholic Church has concluded that there is a post mortem purification process, that you can shorten this process via offerings, and that you can pray for the salvation of the dead.
Why doesn't Trent face the reality that the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Church of the East all reject purgatory? If it is in the Fathers, then they all misunderstood it, and not until the second millennium does anyone suddenly understand the Fathers rightly.
6:40 Trent has managed to define "purgatory" so broadly now that all Protestants have purgatory now. Goodness gracious. All Protestants affirm that when we die, we are changed and what remains of our sinful nature is stripped away with our flesh. I hate to break it to Trent, but that ain't purgatory. Purgatory is when a person suffers in the process of expiating their own sins, and the prolonged suffering is inextricably linked to this expiation and a necessary part of it.
"Forty days " was the season of Lent (length), which comes between the winter solstice and the spring equinox, when the days are growing longer, and the nights shorter; when the sins (Sun's S. declination) of the world (year) are being purged off, and come to nought (0) as the Sun reaches the equator. This was the purgatory of the ancients, during which a fast was kept, and is still kept by many of the moderns, in imitation of nature, to purge off their sins! The last month of the year, and the one more particularly observed was named February, from februare, to purge; because, at the end of this mouth the Sun was found at the spring equinox; and having no declination, his sins are all gone. (Roman calendar). The sacred year/world begins and ends at the spring equinox. The new religious year begins with "Let there be light" or "he has risen." The ancients held two festivals at opposite points of the ecliptic; one, the anagogia, or going-up of the Sun, at the spring equinox (this was the Passover of the Jews); the other the katagogia or going-down of the Sun, at the fall equinox; this was the ingathering of the Jews. This "forty days” was also styled by the Alchemists a “philosophical month." (Bees' Cyclopaedia, art. Month.) The Dove's station was near Purgatory, i.e., near the spring equinox, at which time she returns to us, the inequalities of the days and nights having been purged off. (Faber, Pag. Idol, vol. 3, p. 343.)
Interesting point on eulogies. Didn't Joseph Smith give his claim that we can become gods in a eulogy? The King Fallet (sp) discourse? I could be wrong.
@@rolandovelasquez135 my point is that Trent said that because it was said in a eulogy, it can't be taken as theology, because of emotion and stuff. I was just making the observation that in a eulogy by Joseph Smith, a theology was created. I'm not comparing, just processing
Hello Dr Ortlund, I deeply appreciate the work you do with the fathers, and it has inspired me to do further research into the original sources. I have one question. Why do you think that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are brethren in the faith? Do not get me wrong, I do not ask this out of any sort of hate or envy for Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, but as a former Roman Catholic, it is my understanding that the Gospel which we Protestants would propound is fundamentally different than that of Roman Catholicism. In other words, if one were to ask you what one must do to be right with God and go to heaven, your answer would be fundamentally different than that of an orthodox Roman Catholic if they were asked the same question. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and I would love to affirm that Roman Catholics are Christians, but at this stage in my thinking I cannot do so.
Hello! Glad the videos have been of use. I will do a video on justification sometime. Essentially, I don't think the differences rise so high as to make it impossible for RC and EO to be saved. Will flesh that out when I can in the video. God bless!
Hi Mr. Beard! I chanced upon your comment when viewing this video and reading through. Just wanted to extend some compassion by way of sharing my own personal experience and opinion. You are free to of course reject. I am a protestant who views catholics and orthodox as brothers in faith this is very personal in that I have close family members who are roman catholic and have several close eastern orthodox friends. This has lead to years of discussions on various topics. My point, I believe they and their fellows are Christians every bit as much as me and know them to have have vibrant personal relationships with Christ and to take the scriptures every bit as serious as me. They also share our same faults in being ignorant and rude and childish. They just operate out of different framework of thinking and assume different traditions than us protestants. This for sure isn't a popular opinion and not one everyone will accept but one that has served me well and a view for which I thank God for. Please do feel free to test it brother!
@ZachCICM thank you for your comment it was helpful for me. My catholic brother puts it as catholics affirm what in the programming world is referred to as a state machine. He calls it a grace state machine. You can move out of a state of grace as a result of mortal sin on the basis of a passage I believe where Paul says something to the effect of some as having fallen from grace and another where John refers to a sin leading to death. Based on my research into the topic of grace and justification some during some time spent on the Solas held by the reformers it seems to me the evaluation from the catholic side seems similar to the concerns of Arminians and relate to concepts of free will and the concern that predetermined love is hardly real and free love. I found that sometimes those with a very strong calvinist bent tend to be more prone to an error of total disregard for those concerns and project the discussion at times on to true vs false gospel by projecting the galatians heresy upon catholics. To me though the catholic position is of a different nature than saying you need to do something to be saved absolutly aka circumcision...it seems to me it is more you need to not do something to maintain your state of salvation but if you done a mortal sin you uav have forgiveness available to you through repentance and sacramental confession. Please care to comment if I have made a mistake here in representing the view further.
@ZachCICM Yes I know, and that is what I have a problem with. I agree that the believer must abide in Christ, and must do good works but that such abiding is caused by being a believer, and the works flow from being saved. However, the idea that one must actively do certain works in order to be finally saved, rather than because they are saved, seems to fall under the anathema of Paul. I will here quote an extent section from Galatians which I am sure you are familiar with, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:10-12 and "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4. Both quotations are from the NASB1995. It seems to me that if the moral law aka Ten commandments is included under "law" here as used by Paul, then the mortal sin and confession system falls under this curse. Since in Romans 7 Paul says that He would not have known about coveting except through the Law, and then quotes the tenth commandment, it seems that Paul is indeed including the moral law under the umbrella of Law. Thus I cannot see how the Roman Catholic system is not anathema, since it adds works to faith. Perhaps I am wrong, and I have misunderstood something, but as of now, I cannot see where I am [please show me if you see where]. I would certainly love to affirm that you are my brother, but right now, I do not think I can.
I don't think you need to respond to Trent. Trent regularly mischaracterizes positions and builds straw-man arguments, instead, I think you should continue to make concise videos that focus on the crux of the issues and their support. Those videos are much more helpful than rebuttal expeditions of 4 hour videos.
YES!!!! It’s the only way he can bring about a contrary point by shifting the original point to something he can argue against. He does this with every protestant.
The fundamental element of the entire discussion is really whether or not purgatory ( Post Mortem Purification ) exists at all , and was it taught by the fathers and early church >>> ( ESSENCE OF BELIEF ) This is the point that Trent made;; That the Church Fathers did agree on this essence of belief ... that certain people can and do enter a state of purgatory ( Post Mortem cleansing ) after death This is what is meant by "essential element". If the church fathers taught of a purifying post Mortem condition but disagreed or had varying views on on what, how, where, and when etc, then we can say that those varying opinions are secondary to the belief that Purgatory exists. Secondary elements (might be things like what happens to a person in purgatory ...?? Why does purgatory exist ?? How long do people stay there for ??? Can others pray for them to get them out ??? . . How much pain do they suffer ?? Do they suffer any pain at all ?? Can they pray for us whilst in purgatory ?? ( ESSENCE OF NATURE ) Gavin isn't necessarily wrong about the essential elements of purgatory not being taught by the Fathers as they pertain to things like indulgences and expiatory purification, but that's really irrelevant to that belief itself, namely that purgatory exists, as am essential belief held by the church over the past 2000 years.
The concept of purgatory not only is one that develops apart from scripture, it develops IN SPITE of scripture. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The idea that we have some level of sin that either 1. MUST be cleansed post-mortem 2. CAN be cleansed post-mortem through suffering not only lacks scriptural authority but was created in spite of scripture. So much of what I see appearing out of RC is INSUFFICIENCY. The insufficiency of Christ's atonement, the INSUFFICIENCY of justification by faith, the insufficiency of Christ AS a redeemer (Mary as Co-Redemptrix). Why is Christ insufficient? Why is the Son of God NOT enough? IF I believe that purgatory is necessary, I am forced to reason that Christ isn't enough. IF I believe my works can save me or are required FOR my salvation, I must therefore logically conclude that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough. IF I believe that Mary is a Co-Redemptrix, I must logically believe that Jesus wasn't enough. In all of these instances I am adding something to the Word of God that isn't there. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees come to mind. One of their greatest sins were adding things to scripture that weren't there and then judging people for failing to honor the additions, placing traditions equal to scripture.
Glad you called out william Albrechts style of debate,unfortunately his style is often very abrasive,combative and comes across as rude. The polar opposite of your approach Dr ortland.
if gavin is going to foray into the apologetics he needs to develop thicker skin. the real reason why gavin won't respond to albrecht is because he can't refute the arguments. ruclips.net/video/N6qHBKuFxhI/видео.html
@@qatoliqayaqushta6889 well,I have personal experience of william,after I called indulgences a fictitious currency for a fictitious place (purgatory) he called me a freak. It's not a great approach to good debate and dialogue so I have some sympathy with Gavins position.
@@qatoliqayaqushta6889 just to add a little more weight behind my original comment,in a debate with protestant apologist Dr Michael brown on certain catholic dogmas proven through the New testament,William,to Dr browns frustration,was unable to stick to the brief,and drew in the early church fathers writings time and again to defend his position.
@@qatoliqayaqushta6889 will makes me laugh with his comments on how he didn’t insult Gav but Gav needs to grow thicker skin. Reminds me of when children lie and try to come up with as many defences as possible.
What is the Catholic understanding of the passage of those who were in Abraham's Bosom into heaven? Did they have to make a "pit stop" cleansing in Purgatory?
Hey Gavin, enjoing the dialogue on all your videos especially your interaction with Catholicism. Can I ask what led you to researching/reading Brian Daley's book? Thanks!
Purgatory is worse than works though. No matter what your works, it's additional punishment, because your best efforts are never enough. The most mortifying part for me is that we already know that, which is why Christ died in our place. Yet not even Christ's atonement is enough.
@@saintejeannedarc9460your not going to like reading the Bible. However when you read about the day of the lord..which Ortland forgets. You read first it futuristic. Second it brings purification, it is painful and some are destroyed others passed through and other cleansed. Etc there is over 20 verses about the day of the lord. And way more verses and parable that indicate post death cleansing and even post death punishment. He goes over zero and doesn't mention day of the lord. And there is parable of post death punishment even for believers sorry
If Jesus is God, then the salvation Jesus gives is powerful and complete. Jesus triumphed for us all! He did not need help from Mary or the Saints. As the hymn states in the lyrics: “Jesus Paid It All!” This was God’s plan from the beginning. The Hebrew original letters of the name breaks down to “Behold the HAND behold the NAIL”. Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world. This was God’s eternal plan which was perfect and completely acceptable as God has foreseen all from the beginning. This is why all who are in Him, were also foreseen.
The church fathers can and did get many things wrong. I see no scriptural evidence (I’ve looked at the verses Catholics point to) for purgatory. You have to be reading into the text to somehow draw that conclusion.
@ 1:50. Yup. Not only that but the guy yells constantly. Never seen anything like it in my life. And I'm 68. Just sayin'. And, in stark contrast to the aforementioned apologist, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."
When your faith is being attacked over and over it is very acceptable to get upset, how about you read revelation where Jesus has swords for toungues, or read the gospel where he says he as come to set mother against daughter and son against father Also you probably don’t know realize what meek means in this context, Ummm yes Jesus can be meek, but he is also the same God that sent plagues upon Egypt, God is a jealous God, he defends his own.
Dr gavin i feel that the early church resembles catholicsm and its teachings alot more than your particular denomination's teachings. So if you were to crtiticise catholics for not meeting the bar, can you show us how your denomination meets the bar you have set that you believe catholism does not meet?
Hey there, I highly recommend the book “The Church of Rome at the Bar Of History” by William Webster! He tackles these exact questions you’re asking. The book is well-received and it was written by a former Catholic who turned Protestant after studying the early church fathers and history.
I did not think Gavin was criticising Catholics for not meeting the bar, but rather is seeking theological truth, as we all should be. Instead of commenting on Gavin's video, interestingly, you appear to be criticising Gavin's denomination. There's a feeling of deflection and adhomenin (albeit denominational rather than personal criticism).
@@ProfYaffle im not quite sure whats your point, im not attacking him. He is making a protestant critique of catholism. Just asking dr gavin to be consistent with his own beliefs
The difference is I never *claimed* that my views on the afterlife are universal among the fathers. Catholic apologists do say that about purgatory, and that is what I'm responding to. We have to measure each tradition in light of what it claims for itself. Having said that, yes, I think Protestantism is generally more catholic than Roman Catholic teaching.
is very difficult to interpret the church father's writings in it's original context, we need to look into the Bible alone to see if there any support for the idea of purgatory.
@The Hesychast Right now I don't follow any denomination, however I think Eastern Orthodox Church is the closest, I'm very ignorant in patristics though. That's why I'm studying.
@The Hesychast easy, read scripture and interpret correctly to i.e. historical grammatical and literal. Aka PLAIN meaning. RCs constantly points to tradition or church fathers as if both are equal with the word of God - sorry, early father's allegorized scripture and didn't get everything right. Only God is perfect.
@@IvanAlvarezCPACMA agreed and I have deeply studied scripture and have read quite a bit of the writings of the Christians in the first 800 years of Christianity and while I don’t dismiss historical theology and enjoy it quite a bit, they get things wrong all the time (ironically enough especially the earliest guys who should have the purest doctrine and clearest understanding of the traditions if the RC or EO claims were right and their traditions weren’t historical innovations). Just imagine Paul in the first century requiring believers in Christ to believe in Mary being an ever virgin and being sinless and this being a requirement for salvation. Or him expecting believers to bow down before icons of Angels, Christ and other Christians kissing them even if it goes against their conscience. That is unthinkable if you have deeply studied scripture in its historical/ grammatical context. Most of the leading Christian scholars are evangelical so I don’t understand why anyone would think deeply studying scripture requires RC or EO. Some of the most known online EO apologists have learned their biblical theology (typology, partial preterism, historical context etc.) from Protestant theologians. For example Kabanes whole understanding of the biblical Metanarrative is based on Peter Leithart, NT Wrights and James B Jordan’s work (when he already was EO). He then used that framework and married it it with the Eastern Orthodox traditions and teachings. Why is that? Because only reading the scriptures through EO traditions won’t give you as deeply an understanding of the scriptures (especially the OT) which is why most of them rely on evangelical works which they then marry with their traditions. It’s Protestantism that has given Catholics and EO laity the opportunity to read their Bible in their language and to study the scriptures with great historical scholarship and to engage in biblical theology.
The way Dr. Ortlund interprets church fathers is simply not the way Catholics interprets the church fathers. All Trent was trying say is that even as early as the church fathers era there were already a circulating belief about purgatory. However, it doesn't mean that all that the church fathers got all the details 100% accurate. As to how to the Catholic church came up with the dogma of purgatory, that's a whole different topic. Catholics believe that God reveals more and more of his truth over time and that's why Catholic church's understanding has been developing over time. The reason church fathers brought into the picture on this discussion is just to point out that even before protestant reformation, highly respected Christians already believed in purgatory. If there's a single most important takeaway point here, it's that even early Christians didn't operate in a Sola Scriptura-manner. Even the most fundamental dogma of Holy Trinity can't be able to be explained convincingly through Sola Scriptura, and this is precisely why there are denominations that reject Jesus' divinity (i.e. Jehovah's Witness)
I'm sort of amazed that you doubled down on mischaracterizing the nature of the disagreement between Catholics and Orthodox on this topic, even after being corrected. Once again, neither the Catholics nor the Orthodox deny that there is a post-mortem purification process for the faithful where the prayers/liturgy of the Church is efficacious in reducing the degree/magnitude of purgation. This is an apostolic doctrine and it's dogmatized for the East in at least two councils, one pan-orthodox (universally accepted) and another local: "And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented - by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction - [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not." - Decree 18, Council of Jerusalem "But both the souls of the holy and the righteous go indisputably to paradise and those of the sinners go to hades, of whom the profane and those who have sinned unforgivably are punished forever and those who have offended forgivably and moderately hope to gain freedom through the unspeakable mercy of God. For on behalf of such souls, that is of the moderately and forgivably sinful, there are in the Church prayers, supplications, liturgies, as well as memorial services and almsgiving, that those souls may receive favour and comfort. Thus when the Church prays for the souls of those who are lying asleep, we hope there will be comfort for them from God, but not through fire and purgatory, but through divine love for mankind, whereby the infinite goodness of God is seen." - Council of Constantinople 1772 What Catholics and Orthodox disagree on is how to metaphysically best express this Apostolic doctrine. But in its substance we do not disagree with each other. We do, however, disagree with you and with your notions of extrinsic, purely juridical justification that has no place for *any* type of post-mortem purification. There's a similar dynamic with regards to grace: both Catholics and Orthodox believe in a synergistic, participatory soteriology but, again, we disagree on how that's best metaphysically expressed.
It's simply false that the only differences between RCC and EO on the afterlife are matters of metaphysical expression. (Not sure where you thought this was "corrected.") The differences include the matters I mentioned in my videos, such as the role of the language of fire, the temporal/eternal punishment distinction that defines the nature and necessity of the suffering, the role of sacrifices such as indulgences, and other matters of how the doctrine is taught and held in the church. The fact that there are agreements on some points does not cancel out the disagreements on these other important points. Hence the official Orthodox rejections that I referenced. Do you not think this was disputed at Florence? Why do you think Josiah Trenham calls purgatory nonsense? Or do you not think this assertion of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is valid? "The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (aplace of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which thesouls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for theirsins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where everysoul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believein indulgences as remissions from purgatorial punishment. Both purgatory andindulgences are inter-corelated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in theAncient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evilpractices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If AlmightyGod in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of thesinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteenhundred years without such a theory."
Also, to add to Gavin’s point: look at the 1772 text you yourself have quoted. The prayers and supplications in question are offered for a certain class of *unrighteous* people in hades (those who have not sinned unforgivably). It’s actually very clear on what happens to the righteous.
@@TruthUnites I provide two citations from Orthodox councils (one of which is pan-Orthodox) and you respond with an out-of-context quote from Fr. Josiah Trenham. I'm not arguing that the Orthodox and Catholic doctrine on post-mortem purification are absolutely identical. What I'm saying is that every Apostolic Church has some expression of a necessary post-mortem purification process for those that are faithful but die in sin. Why do they ubiquitously have this doctrine? Well, again, because it's Apostolic. It's only the various Protestant denominations that deny it because Protestant soteriology (extrinsic righteousness) is alien to the Apostolic faith. Next, you should stop conflating the doctrine itself with various abuses and misapplication of said doctrine. Indulgences are an abuse of this Apostolic doctrine that the Eastern Orthodox reject. What the Eastern Orthodox don't reject, however, is that the Church and the faithful are active participants in expediting this post-mortem purgation for the deceased faithful. That's why we all pray for the dead. That's why the Divine Liturgy is also for the dead. In general, and as a broad hermeneutic, the Romans, Byzantines and Orientals have different expressions of the Apostolic faith. The Romans are more legal/juridical in their expression; the Byzantines are more metaphysical/philosophical; and the Orientals are more poetic/allegorical. This doesn't mean that the differences between the Roman Church, the Byzantine Church and the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches are purely semantic. What it does mean, however, is that the legitimate differences between these Churches are far and few between and tend to be highly nuanced in nature. Unfortunately, you're glossing over that nuance. Did St. Mark take issue with the Roman expression of this doctrine, where the length of the purgation is directly tied to the quantity of sin and where a new compartment of Hades was introduced? Yes, he did. But he did not oppose, again, the substance of the dogma.
@@cultofmodernism8477 the two statements you quoted do not detract in any way from my point about the differences between Catholic and Orthodox conceptions of the afterlife, so far as I can see. In fact the 2nd rejects that this process is through "fire and purgatory," which supports my point of view. I did not merely quote Trenham, I referenced Florence and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America -- did you miss the quote I produced? I'm curious for your answer to my question about its validity. Your general point that all the apostolic churches belief in a postmortem process and prayers for the dead is a fair and forceful point. MY point is that this is not purgatory, as defined by the Catholic church. Referencing indulgences is not conflating the doctrines with its abuses, because indulgences are part of Catholic teaching concerning purgatory. I think you are failing to define the word "purgatory" as the Catholic church has defined it, and as other churches have historically appraised it. The two quotes you produced actually support that point.
@@TruthUnites One questin for you. Do you believe that the Orthodox are much closer to the Catholics on this issue than are the Protestants? Or is it your position that both the Orthodox and the Protestants equally reject the Catholic doctrine of purgatory? Because you seem to have this binary view where there's either agreement or disagreement, and little-to-no wiggle room between.
Eastern Orthodox believe in Purgatory. In the dogmatically binding Pan-Orthodox *Synod of Jerusalem 1672* , we see in *Decree 18* that it states: “And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance - by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction - *of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed;* especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.” babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044024477861&view=2up&seq=162&skin=2021&q1=release Wait a second, so there are those who die and endure the temporary punishments like that of hellfire for their sins, but they will be released from good works and prayers. So we see Eastern Orthodox now officially believe in purgatory. Interestingly enough, the Pan Orthodox binding synod of Jassy held a couple decades before the dogmatically binding synod of Jerusalem directly contradicts this! Showing that Eastern Orthodoxy is false and don’t have the power to bind and loose, since they are not under the Supreme Pontiff. In the *Synod of Jassy 1642,* they took a confession from their Eastern Orthodox saint, Peter Mogila, they edited it and asserted that it was authoritative. This is a dogmatically binding pan-orthodox synod as four of the Orthodox Patriarchs signed the documents. *In question 66 of the authoritative catechism produced from the Synod, they assert* Question 66. What are we to think of the Fire of Purgatory ? Answer. *It is nowhere taught in the holy Scriptures that there is any temporary Punishment, whereby the Soul, after Death, may be purged.* On the contrary, *the Church, in the second Council of Constantinople, did condemn Origen for this very Opinion.* Moreover, it is evident that the Soul, when once departed, cannot again become a partaker of the Sacraments of the Church. Could this be, that the Soul could satisfy there for Sins committed in this Life, then, by like Reason, it might partake of the Sacraments of Penance there ; which being contrary to orthodox Doctrine, the Church rightly and wisely offers the unbloody Sacrifice for those Souls, together with her Prayers, that they may be forgiven those things wherein they had offended, whilst they continued in this Life : *And not that they might be delivered from any Punishment that they were then suffering for a Time only. Our Church doth not admit or approve of such Fables as some Men have fancied concerning the State of Souls after Death ; as that they are tormented in Pits and Waters, and with sharp Prongs, when they are snatched away by Death before they can have done sufficient Penance for their Faults.* archive.org/details/cu31924029363094/page/n61/mode/2up So in a matter of a couple decades the Eastern Orthodox go from saying Purgatory is nowhere taught in Scripture and is condemned, to asserting that it’s true. That’s a clear refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy. And it’s interesting since Purgatory was one of the main things the Eastern Orthodox debated at various reunion councils, vindicating Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church.
@@dwong9289 The following will help explain the differences: Observations on Purgatory by Met. Macarius (Bulgakov) of Moscow (1816-1882) Taken from “Orthodox Dogmatic Theology”, Vol. II, pg. 725 The doctrine of the Roman Church on Purgatory has some resemblance to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church on the possibility for some sinners to be released from the bonds of Hades by the prayers of the living, although it has also some difference. To properly judge between the one and the other one must understand the teaching as set forth by the Roman theologians themselves. I. They distinguish in the doctrine of Purgatory two parts: the ‘essential part’, or what has been decreed and taught by their church as dogma, and the inconsequential, that is to say, what has not been fixed by their Church and forms the object of theological opinions. The first part refers only to two points: a) there is a purgatory, that is to say a place or state of atonement (status expiationis) in which the souls of those who died without having received absolution for even slight faults, or even after obtaining absolution for their sins, but without enduring in this life the temporal punishment for sins, suffer torment to satisfy Divine Justice, until they have been purified by these torments and have become worthy of eternal felicity. b) the souls of those in Purgatory are in great need of prayer to aid them, such as alms, and especially the Bloodless Sacrifice. As regards the non-essential teaching relates the solution of the following questions: a) Is Purgatory a specific place or not, and if so, where is it? Are the sufferings of the souls in the purgatorial fire real or metaphorical? b) How long are souls in purgatory? How are they aided by the prayers of the Church? (2) II .- Stopping our thoughts on the essential part of the Roman doctrine concerning Purgatory, we find some resemblance to that of the Orthodox Church on the prayers for the dead, and at the same time some differences. 1) There is similarity in the fundamental idea. Indeed, the Orthodox Church teaches, like that of Rome: -- a) that the souls of some of the dead, namely those who died in faith and repentance, but without having had time to bring in life fruit worthy of repentance, and therefore, did not manage to receive from God complete forgiveness of their sins and be purified, undergo torments until they are deemed worthy of forgiveness and cleansed ; -- b) that in such cases the souls of the dead are benefited by prayers for them from those of their brothers in Christ who are still living, their works of charity, and especially the Offering of the Bloodless Sacrifice. 2. The differences, in particular, are: a) According to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church the aforesaid souls of the dead are suffering because, although they repented before death, they have not had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, and therefore to deserve God’s complete forgiveness of their sins, and, thus, to actually be purified, and to overcome the natural consequences of sin, punishment; whereas, according to the doctrine of the Church of Rome, the souls of the dead suffer in Purgatory, strictly because they have not suffered here below the temporal punishment needed for sins in satisfaction of Divine Justice;. b) According to the Orthodox doctrine, these souls are purified of sins and deserve God’s forgiveness, not by themselves and of their own suffering but by the prayers of the Church and by the power of the Bloodless Sacrifice; with these same prayers not only benefiting the souls suffering, but mitigating their position, freeing them from the torment [2], whereas, according doctrine of the Roman Church, it is by their same suffering that souls are purified in Purgatory and thus Divine Justice is satisfied, and the prayers of the Church serve only to give them some relief in this condition. [3] 3) Moreover, although the differences between the Roman doctrine of Purgatory and the Orthodox doctrine of prayer for the dead are over these particulars, nevertheless, these are important, and we cannot accept the differences. For upon these differences we find both false things and a reversal of fundamental dogma: a) the first idea is false, as we have already seen, [4] that is, that a sinner who repents before dying should still bring a kind of satisfaction to divine justice for his sins undergoing some temporal punishment for this purpose, and that in Purgatory, for lack of being able to suffer here below. Complete satisfaction to Divine Justice, the same superabundant satisfaction, was Presented once and for all, for all sinners, through Jesus Christ Our Savior, Who took upon Himself the sins of the world and all punishment for sin; and, to obtain complete forgiveness of God and freedom from all punishment of sin, sinners have to appropriate the merits of the Redeemer, that is to say, believe in Him, truly repent of their sins, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, i.e., good deeds. Consequently, if there are sinners who, having repented before they died, have, despite this, torments to endure after death, it is only because they do not have time to fully appropriate the merits of the Savior, either because of the weakness of their faith in Him or by an effect of the failure of their repentance, and mainly because they did not bear fruits worthy of repentance, and were not actually purified from sin, as the Orthodox Church teaches. b) it is no less a misconception that sinners would be purified in Purgatory and satisfy divine justice by their own torments. In whatever sense the fire of Purgatory is understood, either literally or in a figurative sense, in none of these senses can we ascribe this to God. If you attach a literal meaning to the fire, then, the fire by its very nature is incapable of purifying a soul which is a simple and immaterial spiritual essence. If you attach a figurative meaning, that is to say, the fire is an inner torment of the soul due to its consciousness of its past sins and the deep contrition for them, then, in that case, this cannot purify the soul in the life beyond the grave, because in the life after death there is no longer a place for repentance, nor for merit or any personal self-correction as Roman Catholics believe. And as long as the soul remains in sin, not purified and renewed, until then, whatever it may have to endure, it can in no way satisfy by its own suffering the Divine Justice and overcome these inevitable consequences of sin. [5] c) If the souls of some of the dead suffer in Purgatory, even repentant sinners must necessarily suffer a temporal punishment for sin in satisfaction to Divine Justice, and, if the souls suffering in Purgatory are truly cleansed and meet their obligation to Divine Justice, then, the question is, “What is the point of prayers and the general intercession of the Church in their favour?” The souls in Purgatory necessarily have to suffer until they have fulfilled the desired satisfaction and have been purified by suffering; now, if the prayers of the Church only weaken and alleviate that suffering, instead of shortening the period of time that souls must pass in Purgatory, they (the prayers) prolong it and therefore are less useful than harmful. Does this not, of course, overturn the fundamental idea of the dogma of the prayers for the dead?
Continued: III. - If we now turn our attention to the non-essential part of the Roman doctrine concerning Purgatory, being theological opinions we find that it differs much more from the doctrine of the Orthodox Church on prayer for the dead, though on issues of little importance judging by their intimate meaning. Let us mention the two most remarkable: 1) The Orthodox Church teaches there is no intermediate class after death between those who are saved and go to heaven, and those who are condemned, and go to Hades; there is not a particular intermediate place where souls go who did penance before death and are subject to the prayers of the Church; all those souls go to Hades, where they can only be freed by its prayers. [6] Most Roman theologians consider Purgatory as a special intermediary place between heaven and hell, and sometimes placed in the vicinity thereof, in the interior of the earth, sometimes close to that one, sometimes in the air. There are others, however, who see in purgatory, not a place apart, but a particular state of souls, and recognize that the souls in this state can undergo their temporal punishment and be purified even where are contained those condemned to eternal punishment (that is to say, to hell); thus, there can be found in the same prison inmates sentenced to temporary imprisonment and prisoners condemned forever. (7) 2) The Orthodox Church strongly rejects the teaching of a Purgatorial fire, in the truest sense of the word, which cleanses the soul. (8) A great number of Roman theologians consider this fire as real and material (this being the almost universal belief of the laity of the Roman confession), and to garner proof of their teaching they attempt to collect from the Holy Scriptures and from the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church references that seem to refer to such a fire (9). Others, however, understand the fire of Purgatory in a figurative sense, for spiritual torment, and therefore cite in their treaties on the subject similar evidence either from the word of God, or the writings of the Fathers, adding that the ancient Doctors themselves were of varied opinions on the fire (10). It would therefore be superfluous even to refute the evidence given. It is finally noted that in general their church has not determined precisely what the fire of Purgatory is, if it is material or not, and therefore it does not belong to faith to understand it in one way or another (11). We will say nothing of other opinions concerning Purgatory, for example, how long a soul remains, and if they are all suffer the same space of time for the same penalties; what penalties they face; if they are more stringent than those of the present life and lighter than those of hell; if souls in purgatory pray for themselves and for us who are still in this world; if they give themselves up to the practice of good works, etc., etc. All these opinions have little value even to theologians of Rome and few seriously engaged themselves in answering them (12).
Interesting how many comments are saying, "of course the fathers disagree, that is why we need a magisterium." This pivots away from the original claim to represent the "consensus of the fathers." So my question for Catholics commenting is: which is it? Is purgatory the consensus of the fathers, or the selection of the magisterium?
Dr ortlund why not both? Both the substancial witness of the fathers as well as the magisterium, to serve as a mechanism to definitively settle the matter. The magisterium looks into the mind of the church before making a declaration, not the other way around.
Also just curious, even if every single church father disagreed with your beliefs, would it matter to you? In the end scripture( guided by one's interpretation) would be the only infalliable rule of faith, so you could technically just dismiss them all as long as they disagree with your certain interpretive tradition of scripture.
Moreover, its interesting that ALL churches with the exception of the Catholic church (because this is not just Protestant-Catholic issue) disagree with the doctrine of the Purgatory as defined by the Magisterium. Is the Holy Spirit only limited to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church? Does not the Holy Spirit lead the rest of Christendom too? This is just one of many issues you face when you limit the idea of the "true church" to a single institution.
My brothers, Gavin Ortlund raises a very good point. He is trying to demonstrate that the claims of Roman Catholics need to be consistent. At one hand, they are basing claims from the early church fathers while in the other hand, the magisterium bases the claim to purgatory on its own authority. Another question that should be asked is that if the early church fathers aren’t unanimously agreeing on particular doctrines, from Peter’s Rock to the papacy, then how and why did the Roman Catholic church come to those conclusions when there is pretty good evidence to suggest otherwise? After all, the Protestant Reformation also tried pointing and appealing to the early church fathers to protest the RCC.
@@AaronR319 his goal is to refute whatever the “prompt” is. We get the “prompt” from his own statement in the previous video, that he is arguing that the church fathers were not unanimous or even consensus on the concept of purgatory until later. So I think in this context it would be “Catholic Apologists overstepping”.
@@kkvearkeoloji anyone can claim to have the holy spirit guiding them. if the holy spirit leads the rest of christendom (apart from catholicism), how would you account for the contradictory and multiplicity of interpretations of even important things like baptism or the real presence of the eucharist? is the holy spirit leading the people to make contradictory interpretations within christendom? or would u say that the holy spirit is not guiding them then?
Thank you Pastor Gavin for refuting the lie of “being deep in history is to cease being Protestant.” Thank you, for being a living example, that this statement is simply not true.
Why do you say this is not true? Protestantism is how old compared to Catholicism? Why would God allow false teachings to exist for 1500 years only for a man to suddenly discover the truth then that truth to fracture into 30,000 denominations. This will never make sense to me.
Also purgatory is logical. There must be a purification for us to exist and retain our free will in a place of perfection.
@@johnbrion4565 because **that's** not true either.
We don't contend that he allowed the whole church to fall into apostasy for 1500 years and then suddenly come back all at once. As Calvin even said "The Roman church is not the true church, but within her are many true churches".
We do not have 30,000 denominations, even if we did the differences are between ancilliary issues not issues in which we would not recognize each other as fellow Christians. We recognize that many catholics, orthodox, anglicans, and many other non-reformed Christians will be with us in heaven and happily call them brothers.
Of course it doesn't make sense because it's a strawman.
And human beings are not free. We are creatures with subordinate wills that will according to our natures; either the Spirit or the flesh. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness set free from sin. Purgatory challenges the sovereignty of God and the extent to which we are saved by Christ which Hebrews describes as "to the uttermost". ALL of our sin is atoned for to the uttermost by Christ. There is nothing left for us to atone for or be purified from: we have been saved by Christ.
@@Collidedatoms well where did all your beliefs come from? Send me a book on all the true churches within the Catholic Church for 1500 years. And saying we have no free will is just an insane statement. You can hide behind your fancy theological phrases but in the real world humans act. If someone punches you in the face you’ll be mad at them. You won’t say eh it’s ok God just made you to punch me in the face. Again, Protestants want a cheap grace where they don’t have to participate in God’s grace and plan for the world. You want to believe Jesus did all the work for you. This is untrue and unbiblical. Faith and works to hand and hand and God wants us to continually grow in holiness. Not be lazy and say thanks Jesus you did all the work now I’ll chill and praise you. I’ll be a decent person and then go to heaven after this life because you did all the work. Makes not sense. God does not want a bunch of robots in heaven.
@@Collidedatoms also have you ever thought maybe Calvin was wrong? He’s just one person. And a lot of people like you who were card carrying calvinists have come to believe he was wrong and become Catholic. Two well know. Former Calvinist’s, Scott Hahn and John Bergsma. You can’t accuse them of not knowing the Bible theology or church history. You should listen to their conversion stories because it could mean everything. If you listen and still feel they are wrong well then you’ve lost nothing.
@@johnbrion4565 I think a misunderstanding many catholics have about protestants is that we follow the teachings of the "protestant church" as catholics follow "the Roman Catholic church" not true. Protestantism emphasizes the authority of scripture over traditions of men. The reason for there being many true churches even in catholicism is their faith in Christ. The Roman catholic church does not save anyone. The authority of church fathers cannot spare a soul from hell. Jesus saves. Jesus is our rock and our foundation and there is no salvation without him. Before anyone is an anglican or catholic or lutheran or anything. They need to be a follower of Jesus Christ, they need to revere him as God who came down in the flesh, and they must understand that by faith in him they have been freed from sin and death. Is the real importance knowing Bible theology and church history? Did Jesus say the greatest commandment is your depth of knowledge in theology? No. The greatest commandment is love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Then to love your neighbor as yourself. It's evident that Jesus as our rock and our foundation is the most important stuff for Christians, and fellowship with him is above all other things. So emphasize that more.
I try hard to take Trent Horn as a serious commentator but the way he constantly misrepresent others (Gavin , Mike Winger, etc) saying completely misleading information and things they never said make it very hard for me.
Thanks again for the great labor pastor Gavin
No joke him and fradd. Both do nothing but straw man and misrepresent
It's really uncharitable.
Fradd really aggravated me with pragur.
Pragur repeatedly said he doesn't like porn. He said. He didn't consider nudity porn and
Funny enouph is very scriptura on masterbation.
It's not in bible. Fradd then spent the rest of the debate misrepresenting pragur. And pragur even said lust wasn't understood in o.t. but coveting was.
Then fradd with shapiro actually called lust covetness... lol.
He literal ly moved goal
Debate him then
@Sm64wii
1) I have zero equipment to make a a youtube. I've never even made a vid. To talk about the shows and books I like let alone a debate.
2) I'm still reading my Bible. I just know how to listen to arguments.
3) I have no access to the patriatics. All I can do is listen to multiple sides. Of a argument over things. And determine where the best argument lies.
IF I HAD ALL THE BOOKS THE CATHESIM IN FRONT OF ME THAT I COULD QOUTE I WOULD. AND I WOULD ENJOY IT. ID DEBATE THE POPE. ON STAGE GIVEN THE OPURTUNITY.
but as it stands finding the quotes and cathesism and info on the official sexual conduct canon(I believe the plentitudes)
Is hard very hard. Instead of debating these people using info from a 3rd hand source saying these sources say. I'd like to have the actuall first hand source.
It would be wonderful if there was a free place on there vuanted catholic answers. Where it would give a run down of every rule and when it was put out.
I.e.
I posses a chart from a site that says the catholics say. It's a run down of the medivel sex rules.
It says the catholics say(I'd like to have this from the catholics) so I have the receipts as it were. I've been trying to find the official I can find it in pieces.
But this chart says it banned sex on several days out of year. Banned it for about half week every week.
All said about 5 months of year.
They at least according to the third party sight quoted pages of books I myself have not read.
1 I'm not disrespectful enouph to argue a point unless I have the verbatim. Proof of it.
@@r.a.panimefan2109 you know that ortland moves goals posts and didn't include the main uses of scripture for Purgatory
@sonicrocks2007 you mean a few out of context verses this corrupt organization says mean other things.
But for the sake of thoroughly discussing care to share your handful of verses that mean something else.
Also care to provide a example of him moving the goal post.
A example of a goal post move is how leftoid democrates continue to try and remove 1st amendment...
They'll say the founders didn't want guns.
In citizen hands.
When u prove that wrong they'll say they only knew about single shot musket.
When you prove there were semi auto back then(belton flintlock.)
They'll say let's use those then.
When u prove they anticipated new invention they fall back to removing a right from the constitution
To get there way...
Care to point out how gavins arguments have done anything more than present scripture and church history to prove that it's a tradition and nothing more.
Unless you can provide those two things I'm gonna count your comment as a troll
As a former Catholic turned Protestant who's been on a journey of looking into the early church and figuring out what that means for my faith, I really appreciate your videos, Dr. Ortlund. The version of church history I had gathered from Protestantism, while not necessarily explicitly stated, was that there was Paul and the Apostles, maybe a generation or so after them, and then we just skip to Luther, Calvin, and maybe Hus. It's nice having a Protestant perspective on this channel that's not completely disconnected from church history.
I also greatly appreciate both you and Trent Horn for your charitable way of handling these issues of disagreement. It's so refreshing, and it makes both of your channels some of my favorites. I'd love to see a dialogue between the two of you. Keep up the good work!
As a cradle Protestant who is converted 23 plus years ago to Catholicism I am really sorry to see that you failed the Lord feeling you benefit from Dr. Ortlunds bible butchering and the Protestant hersey 1500 plus years after Christ!
I pray for you!
@@deusvult2302 How condescending of you. Presumably you think this trait makes you a better Christian?
@@deusvult2302I have a hard time believing that you actually watched this video
@@deusvult2302you should pray for yourself to not be so bigoted
@@deusvult2302I pray you find and practice the love of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That’s how we’re supposed to treat one another. Even Trent would tell you this after seeing what you wrote. We can disagree but we are all part of Christs Body, and His body goes beyond just one institution. His Church refers to all of us who believe in the Gospel, have Faith in Jesus, and use the scriptures to guide our life. I’d recommend you read the Word more and see what it says about how we Christians are supposed to act, especially towards one another. Also read Titus 3:9-11 “But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and striving about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self condemned.” I say this all out of love brother! I see you commented this 2 years so I sincerely hope you’ve had a change of heart since then. I pray God works in your life, I’m not here to judge you but as Believers we can judge based on the Fruits of the Spirit or lack there of.. I sincerely hope He works in your life and all of our lives! We must all humble ourselves and strive to truly love one another. 🙏✝️🙏
Dr. Ortlund - I appreciate when you pointed out how Trent did not frame your argument well up front. RC interlocutors are accustomed to comparing “my tradition verses your tradition,” and assuming Protestants need to, (or desire to), find the same monolithic support from the fathers that they claim. That “my tradition verses your tradition” default mode seems to have seeped in a little and kept Trent from framing his response in a way that fully interacted with your position.
As I read the comments, I notice many of the commenters making the same mistake over and over again. Roman Catholic interlocutors assume you are arguing for a specific Protestant position. They fail to see that you are arguing the case of diversity among the church fathers on the topic of purgatory, NOT that the early church majority opinion on the matter was the contemporary Protestant position.
We would get so much further down the road if we could listen and respond well to other people’s arguments. Many Roman Catholics could very well agree with everything you have said and still find zero issues affirming the doctrine of Purgatory taught by the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church on the grounds of authority and doctrinal development.
Great summary and I appreciate the continued dialogue and your labor in the process.
Thanks a lot Nick. And great point.
Yes. That was my observation. In my quest for truth, this side stepping of the argument presented means I lose trust for e.g. Trent. Gavin doesn't do that. He addresses each question and also includes his uncertainty measures. Trent always appears fully confident. I find that suspicious too. How much is Trent seeking truth and how much is he merely seeking to find evidence to support his beliefs?
I've tried to express this base miscommunication before to people, but you explained it (in my perception) perfectly.
There's an adage that says that even if we trained a Lion how to speak we'd still never be able to understand eachother because our minds work so differently. The boiled down point is that if you're coming from conceptual foundations that are too different speaking the same language isn't going to help. Remembering that has helped me to learn when to stop having a conversation when I'm able to see that misunderstandings are (at the time) too great for us to rectify no matter how mutually curious and in good-faith I am with another party. It's okay to shake hands and know hat we're missing something the other party believes that's a preconception so engrained that they don't even perceive it themselves.
If anyone has an idea of how to discern what preconceptions can get in the way or questions to ask to help us figure it out or conversation formats that lend them selves to exposing those ideas we take for granted but end up getting in the way of mutual understanding and clear communication, I'd really love to hear it and learn.
I'm sorry if I got wordy and confusing.
@@TruthUnites Trent Horn believes the Catholic Church is right, therefore Protestants are wrong.
Thank you for videos like these. There was a time in 2020 and 2021 where content from Trent’s channel as well as Matt Fradd’s “Pints With Aquinas” channel was persuading a lot of professing Protestants, and the only more influential pushback was coming from occasional videos like Mike Winger or James White’s channels. It’s nice to see a channel like this one that gives very charitable and nuanced responses. With videos like these, Trent is going to have to break his “I don’t respond to rebuttal videos” rule more and more. 👍🏼
Great work.
I think once we get into the rebuttals for rebuttals, it’s time to just call for a debate, which Trent and Dr. Ortlund look to be planning soon.
I am a Catholic and really enjoyed the way in which you approached and articulated the discussion! Your engagement is kind and gentle as St.Peter taught we should in such matters. God Bless you
You are Roman Catholic
@@albusai they are a Roman Catholic showing forth Catholicity and love between Christians universally, they are Catholic in their words
@@albusai There are 15 rites in the Latin Rite and 23 rites in the Easter rite and the Roman Rite is in the Latin Rite We are all Catholic
Purgatory cheapens the cross. If sin is not fully paid for on the cross by Christ, then purgatory makes sense, because the remittance of sin needs to be dealt with due to the insufficiency of the power of God. But if God is sovereign, and all powerful then the death of his son, his angel, should be enough for the covering of the sin of all mankind. The onces for all sacrifice for all.
The very nature of the sacrifice of Christ is to justify the wicked man. The ungodly man. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
If sin is not counted against you through salvation, then what is there to purify? There’s either a finished work IN Christ or there isn’t. Additionally, the finished work does not apply to the flesh it applies to the spirit. And if sin, according to Romans resides only in the flesh, then how does sin come with you to be purified in the spirit?
Thanks, Dr. Ortland! You did a fantastic job of organizing your thoughts and arguments. The main problem (IMO) with the Catholic concept of post mortem purification, is that it seems to assume that the atonement was, in certain ways, insufficient from God's point of view, and that OUR suffering needs to be added to the suffering, bloodshed, and death of Jesus on the cross...to make us acceptable to God in heaven. It could very easily be viewed as an attack on the sufficiency and the perfection of the atonement.
I totally agree with what you said and a further question from that is why the atonement isn't totally sufficient in their view,. I believe it is because of their view of justification being infused righteousness,. This makes righteousness intrinsic to themselves which through sin the grace that enables them to be further justified is lost. This means most Catholics at the end of theirs lives will lack enough righteousness to enter heaven. Purgatory then becomes vital because without it all would end up in hell.
Correct, this drives me nuts the death of Christ on the cross is enough! All our works are filthy rags, there is nothing we can do to earn grace or else it wouldn't be grace.
I always thought that purgatory was just silly and never really gave it more thought than that. However you are absolutely correct the moment the first drop of Jesus's precious blood hit the ground at calvary that the debt had been paid. More than sufficiently
To be deep in history to to cease to be a Roman Catholic. It’s easy to make claims, it is much harder to substantiate them. Thank you for consistently showing that Reformed thought is thoroughly founded on scripture and the early church. The true church. The stripping away of the accretions over centuries and a return to the true faith.
Except he is being deceitful.
he mentions reading Purgatorial fires. Which he admits to reading the church fathers. Is about day of the lord passages. Where some are passed, some purified, some destroyed. It is associated with pain and purification. Funny how Ortland skipped like 20 verses he didn't bring this up once.
As a fan of both of yours and someone trying to decide where I fall in the church, I'm finding Trent's regular failure to properly represent the other side concerning. Thank you for your time and concern in addressing this.
May God guide, direct, and bless you!
@@nerigarcia776 Gavin is wise in refusing to engage with him IMHO
@@ProfYaffle Yeah, he won't because when it comes to The Fathers William is a heavy hitter.
Im over a year late with this comment but I just watched your initial "Purgatory: a protestant perspective". I really appreciated all the study/work you did and how you presented the info. I do my own self study regarding these topics for my own edification but your info added a lot to my limited study and filled gaps of knowledge I didn't know I had. I also listened to some of Trent's videos to challenge my theology (I grew up Baptist/non-denominational, wife grew up Catholic). I have not yet listened to his initial response video but ill be listening to your response to Trent. Please don't stop making videos despite the seemingly low number of views as compared to other Christian youtubers. You're a diamond in the rough for protestants and I share your videos to friends and family.
I’m amazed that you recorded an entirely separate video, lost it, then recorded it again. That’s some dedication! One reason I’m a proud patron XD
Exactly. He’s such a trooper!
Watching your videos is like watching light flood into a dark room. Thanks again Kevin. Great 👍🏼👍🏼👌🏼👌🏼
Glad you found it helpful!
Excellent response to Trent's claims. Great work Gavin.
Grateful to you for having Gavin on your channel, Tony. I consequently subscribed and am learning much from him
I’ve noticed that you are very gracious and kind even when engaging with those you disagree with. A true mark of a believer! I watched Pastor Mike Winger rebut Trent horn as well and I’ve come to the conclusion that Trent horn can only refute arguments he misrepresents first. Praying for his eyes to be opened to the truth of Christ alone.
How did trent misrepresent mike's arguments? Mike's arguments even at their best arent sufficient. Trent doesnt need to misrepresent them to refute them.
You came to the conclusion after watching Mike Winger rebut Trent Horn. I would ask that you watch Trent Horn's final rebuttal to Mike Winger to make a final determination on who is misrepresenting who. Obviously Mike Winger will say Trent and misrepresenting him and Trent will say Mike is misrepresenting him, but don't just watch Mike's side and assume everything he says is accurate.
Maybe watch both sides before making such a conclusion? That's the reason I'm here: a Catholic who watched Trents rebuttal to Gavin.
When was he nasty to William albrecht?
@The Hesychast quite the opposite, Albrecht was hostile and nasty towards Gavin and several Catholics even commented how uncharitable Albrecht was towards Dr. Ortlund.
Thank you for another charitable response! Coming from a Catholic convert, you are by far my favorite Protestant out there to listen to. Can’t wait for when you two engage in dialogue!
You’ve expressed that the goal of your videos and your channel is to “move the conversation forward. I think it’s safe to say successfully well done! I look forward to your conversation with Trent - I hope you achieve great strides in common understanding.
Hey Dr. Orlund as a Catholic, I would love for you guys to have a conversation. Love both of you guys 👌
If purgatory were true there would really be no need for Christ's death and ressurection. We could have just believed in Jesus in some sense and then had our sins purged in Purgatory for however long that was needed. Jesus carried all of our sins or he carried none of them. If we are in Christ it is his righteousness imputed to us apart from our own. We are already cleansed in our born again inner man. Once we leave our flesh we leave behind the sinful unclean part of us instantly. Thats why Paul tells us you WERE washed, you WERE cleansed.
Which highlights how bonkers a belief in purgatory really is.
You know what....so you mean even if you are murderer you will be save?..how lame.
Trent Horn almost always misrepresents arguments of Protestants
Yes. Not sure why trent is idolized a lot. Not the best
@@roses993 nor is ortland. Purgatorial fires. Which he admits to reading the church fathers. Is about day of the lord passages. Where some are passed, some purified, some destroyed. It is associated with pain and purification. Funny how Ortland skipped like 20 verses he didn't like
After the community post I was excited to see this, thanks for these!
Thank you Dr Ortlund - after binging on your videos, and some of Trent’s - i didn't have 3 hours! I watched this one in the same evening
Thanks Gavin! Enjoyed the discussion. Christ love! ✝️
15:00 - Eastern Orthodox
16:14 - Trinity and purgatory
17:24 , 17:52 - Hippolytus
18:27 - Abraham’s Bosom
52:45 - Lactantius
53:10 - Why the details are vital
As an Orthodox Christian, I would have liked an actual discussion of his understanding of our beliefs.
How does Purgatory fit with 1 cor 15:51 When Paul says we all will be changed in a flash. those believers seem to not need Purgatory
Amen, good observation.
I made it to the end. It was well done and respectful. I hope you continue to put this information out there. It is very helpful
Hes too respectful . Pergatoy is a sick sad trick by that idolatrous catholic cult of personality.
I made it to the end ;) Good video for sure. If you and Trent are able to have a sit down, something casual and less "debate oriented" I think that'd be awesome!
Dr Gavin is definitely a worthy interlocutor, he is very charitable and puts forwards very substantiative arguments. The discussion he had on the Papacy on Gospel simplicity channel, was very refreshing to me as a Catholic. However I do think, he does over nuance historical writings to the point of detracting from the essence of the writer's message. A head to head dialogue with Trent will be highly appreciated. Peace be with you all. #Proudlycatholic
I’m glad you had the energy to upload, fix the audio in the hour-long version.
this was actually a separate recording. Hope it's useful!
@@TruthUnites Oo, nice.
Maybe I am mischaracterizing, but it seems that the framework of many Catholics is “because the Magisterium states X, the church father recognized as saints must be read through the context of X as truth, therefore all quotes that seem to say otherwise must be tectonically wrong”. It’s not explicitly stated as such, but the technicalities many Catholics will go to at length to tease out every minor way the father could possibly have not been saying what a plain reading of the text seems to say.
This seems to me a bulletproof wall built around a glass house. All history must be read through the lens of the modern Magisterium. Impenetrable logical structure around a flimsy historical record.
What they are doing is constructing the Oral Tradition Paul talks about in Thessalonians.
Scripture itself is tradition and you are safe with it because the Catholic church decided most of it in 400 AD and you just came to accept it like the Apostle's creed.
You should aspire to argue well like the way Catholic apologists do, read Church Fathers etc
I wouldn't say Catholicism has flimsy historical.record, as you say. And I don't think Dr Ortlund would say that based on this video.
Based on my reading of the Fathers, the particular Protestantism doctrines have a flimsier historical basis.
@@MrWoaaaaah maybe flimsy is a bad word. More so I mean to say that history does not unanimously prove Catholic doctrines as it is often claimed to do so. But instead I just see most Catholics being unwilling to concede even a single quote. They “technically” maneuver around everything. It makes it much much harder for a non Catholic such as my self to entertain the tradition as true, because of the seemed unwillingness to recognize the difficulty of historical studies. It feels disingenuous sometimes.
@@koppite9600 I would say arguing well is not aspirational, finding and accepting truth is. And it seems to be many Catholics would rather go to their grave before they release even a single quote from the church fathers from their grasp.
Some things just have a plain reading, and when I am constantly being told “those words don’t mean what you think they mean”, or “well technically he didn’t mean that”, or “he never explicitly denied or rejected it”. It begins to feel disingenuous and contrived. Like they are gaslighting me. Reading a modern RCC framework back into history.
@@mattwebb563 ok then. Make it priority to find the successor of Peter since he heads the church of St Peter which Christ promised you will not see the gates of Hades. Find that and relax.
Bravo, a new favorite resource, thanks for your insight.
Excellent rebuttal 👌🏼. Really looking forward to your upcoming head to head with Trent.
I made it through to the end great video! I love your grasp of church history. Again you show how this was not Universally taught and understood from the beginning.
Most importantly for me it is nowhere taught in the New Testament and it is contrary to the gospel of grace. And thankfully you do everything in the spirit of Christ likeness, meekness, and humility. Which is winsome.
Dr. Gavin, Excellent videos, both your first one and this one. A big problem with Purgatory, historically, is that for centuries it was taught that people go there for years, decades, even centuries and that the RCC used this to motivate people to go fight in the Crusades vs. Muslims (1095-1299) and fight other heretics and so there is a time element of suffering in Purgatory along with the indulgences, etc. that was only brought out clearly by Luther and his protest vs. the selling of indulgences. so from the 1100s to 1500s and beyond even, the time element was there. Many for centuries, and just to name one, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (even after Trent - he died in 1621) and others taught time is spent in purgatory. This is the issue that opened up more and more discussion and debate that eventually led to Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura and the Protestant Reformation. Although modern RCC apologetics denies a time element to purgatory, the fact that for centuries people were deceived about this is a major issue.
What are some good sources on the teachings of Purgatory for centuries was about spending time in purgatory suffering in satis passio ? (years, decades, centuries, etc.)
The only one I know of is Purgatory, by X. F. Schoop, (Jesuit)
most important you cannot find a hint of purgatory in the bible.
@@donhaddix3770 ya if you delete the Bible.
However when you read about the day of the lord..which Ortland forgets. You read first it futuristic. Second it brings purification, it is painful and some are destroyed others passed through and other cleansed. Etc there is over 20 verses about the day of the lord. And way more verses and parable that indicate post death cleansing and even post death punishment. He goes over zero and doesn't mention day of the lord.
@@sonicrocks2007 the supposes rcc bible need to go. not the niv
@@donhaddix3770 why because protestants delete more of the Bible when they don't like it? Interesting interpretation
Amen. God bless Dr. Ortlund.
Many thanks once again Gavin. Watched fully once, going to do so again
(PS Hope Santa bought you a bigger battery and may your mic/audio always work first time)
Can't wait to watch this! I also look forward to seeing you dialogue with Trent Horn!
Good work, Gavin. Thanks!
Excited to see this!
Hello Dr. Gavin. I’m Catholic and I’m glad to see your charitable approach when engaging this topics. Please consider to invite Dr. Brant Pitre on the Papacy or any other topic.
Regards,
If you are captured by the bible butchering if Dr. Ortlund, you never bothered to study your Duay Rheims bible and were never properly catechized!
Scripture may hint at our works will be tested by fire, but Scripture is also clear in that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" and that "... by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified..."
Regarding this doctrine of purgatory, the last statement at the end of this video from Catholic scholar Brian Daley is honest and fair about the lack agreement among the patristic fathers AND ecumenical discussions of the middle ages and post Reformation West. It seems that the "because I (the Catholic Church) said so" argument holds no weight in determining truth among believers. Because of this, Catholic apologists have to appeal to twisting the wording of many church fathers to make purgatory sound more unanimous. They no longer can appeal to the Magisterium's authority because the nature of this doctrine is questionable in light of Christ's finished work on the cross. Naturally, many people will be hesitant to accept this belief on "because I said so". That's why the final authority CANNOT be fallible men, contradictory church fathers and Popes. Their authority literally means nothing to people who's consciences are bound the very Words of God in Scripture. Since only God knows what happens to souls when they die, why not take his word for it rather than man's words? God knew their would be points of lesser essential doctrine that are unclear and that's why He had Paul write Romans chapter 14 that deals with "disputable matters". God had no concept of an infallible authority to determine these secondary matters among Jew and Gentile (eating meat sacrificed to idols, drinking wine, observing the Sabbath, etc.). God told Paul to tell us that on these secondary matters, "Each should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5). However, this does not apply to salvific matters such as how we are saved and how much (if any) works or suffering is done on our part for salvation (see Romans 4:4-5 cf Romans 11:6 & Ephesians 2:8-10; Ephesians 1:13-14). According to God, works or suffering added to Christ's suffering NULLIFY His work ON SINNERS BEHALF. He says if salvation is "by grace then it is no longer of works, otherwise, GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE" (Romans 11:6). Don't you see that this easily extends to post mortem suffering? If it's necessary to suffer to "expiate" sins as Catholic doctrine teaches, then what sins did Jesus Expiate? If Jesus didn't die for all sins (past, present, AND FUTURE), then He's not a complete Savior and we have to finish saving ourselves by our works and post mortem suffering. Besides ALL this, what else would God mean when He said in 2 Corinthians 5:8, "To be absent from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord". To further hammer the nail in purgatory's coffin we have the poor man in Luke 16:22-31 taken immediately to the Kingdom of God seated next to Abraham at the great feast (leaning on His bosom as many ancient people did when they reclined at dinner - Cf. Matt. 8:11; John 13:23). We also have the thief on the cross given Jesus promise to be with Him immediately in Paradise without post mortem cleansing. Has any Catholic ever stopped to wonder why God had this incident of a death-bed salvation with promise of IMMEDIATE entrance to peaceful glory recorded for the church? IT WAS TO GIVE US REAL COMFORT! I am a firefighter and I'm about to undergo a brutal bit of fire training that only lasts 25 minutes yet makes me very nervous and fretful. Catholic friend, Can you imagine burning or suffering of any kind for 500 years or even one year after your death?! You can cry to your heavenly Father all you want but He's the one (in your theology) demanding second payment for your sins - once at Jesus hand and another at yours! This is double jeopardy and not Biblical. Trust is Christ alone for your full and complete salvation. Then in gratitude and love for Him, live completely for Him. If you sin, it's already paid for BUT you will have hurt your relationship and want to restore it as a Spirit-born Christian - not to get Saved again, but to reconcile a hurt relationship (see John 13:10 Cf 1 John 1:8-9 and 1 John 3:6-9).
Been looking forward to this all day. Thank you
3 weeks ago if you had told me I'd be on the edge of my seat with anticipation waiting for a response video on purgatory, I'd have not believed you. Even the comments are more interesting and informative than most other channels I subscribe to.
And yes, I did just respond to my own comment
@@ProfYaffle so glad you enjoyed it!
I really hope you two do a non-debate chat about this. I think it would be awesome. Both of you have so much charity in your hearts and really care without the virtriol.
The distinction between eternal and temporal punishment is NOT a secondary detail about the doctrine. It’s the basis of the doctrine.
Hebrews 6:2 This is BASIC doctrine for any believer. Something a babe in Christ should understand.
Another strong rebuttal while also remaining kind and charitable!
Not strong enough tho.
@@calson814 It was more than strong enough, Trent was thoroughly refuted!
@@Adam-ue2ig don't think so dude.
For example (with all due respect) Dr Gavin claim that Augustine taught Sola Scriptura but we read his letters (in context) we'll fine that's not true. The same goes to his claim regarding purgatory and i personally think that Trent and William did in fact refuted Gavin's claims.
@@calson814 I don't think so dude, Dr. Gavin pointed out in very specific ways how Trent misrepresented his position and introduced several categories with much nuance that Trent just brushed over to paint a picture that these Fathers believed something synonymous with Purgatory as later defined by Rome.
@@calson814 Sola Scriptura was a different videos and topics...Dr. Ortlund introduced 5 categories in this purgatory video and was very detailed showing how much of what is claimed for church history evidence of purgatory is not in fact synonymous with purgatory.
Thanks for a charitable response. However, the biggest difference between you and Trent Horn is not different sources or possibly not even depth of research but rather your understanding of the "Why?" behind all Church teaching. Your referencing of the Trent (the council) clearly demonstrates this. When Trent (the council) deals with temporal punishment it is specifically dealing with sanctification that is denied by the doctrine of faith alone. It does not define what the purgatorial temporal punishment is, that can be understood as merely the temporal separation of the soul from complete unity with God which would be a form of suffering. And this definitely fits within the "minimalistic" definition of purgatory that Trent Horn presents
Yes, I did make it to the end, though I had to watch in sections over a couple of days.
Been reading a book called "Regnum Caelorum", which I definitely recommend. The reason I mention it is because the thesis is relevant here; the chiliasts of the early church did not believe men went straight to Heaven when they died; instead they went to Abraham's Bosom in Hades and would receive their reward in the Millennial Kingdom. Purgatory would have evolved out of a distortion of this already unbiblical doctrine.
The apostolic fathers (Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Epistle to Diognetus, Didache, Pseudo-Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas) all believed that all Christians go immediately to Heaven (which was important to the thesis of the book, as some chiliasts believed only martyrs went directly to Heaven), as the book shows, demonstrating their amillennialism, so this also counters claims they believed in purgatory. Again, highly recommend the book; great historical scholarship.
You'd do better reading Against Heresies by Irenaeus.
And that writer makes many points that are crushing to Papalalism's new Articles of Faith
Abraham's Bosom, the good place, goes back to the OT aka sheol. Jesus kind of confirmed it with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man right?
@@williamrice3052 Yeah. The idea is that the premillennialists believed that Christians still go to Abraham's Bosom at death (hence they receive their reward in the earthly millennium), whereas the amillennialists believed in a ravishing of Sheol at Christ's ascension, so that all Christians go immediately to Heaven when they die. Irenaeus noted this connection between one's belief about the post-mortem destination of Christians and one's view of the millennium in his time, so the book works off that premise.
Calvin’s dishonest usage of the Church Fathers eventually led me from hardcore Reformed anti-Catholicism to Catholicism. Truth will win every time.
It seems like those that claim universal affirmation of purgatory take any language that alludes to a post-Mortem cleansing or even post-mortem waiting and classify it all as purgatory. I think that's disingenuous. There are many Protestants that affirm a post-mortem waiting, but wouldn't classify it as the Catholic understanding of purgatory.
Recasting the concept that vaguely shoehorns in all Christians who believe the final stages of sanctification are post mortem.
And most Christians believe this.
But using that level of indistinction makes the entire issue disappear. So it obfuscates the debate.
I wasn’t aware. Which Protestant denominations affirm some post Mortem waiting?
@@tonywallens217 I'm not sure of any official belief on this by a denomination at large, but I know many Protestant individuals who believe this
@@duncanchance Ah ok, thats what I figured it would be.
@@tonywallens217 I could be wrong though - there may be a denomination that does recognize a post-mortem waiting, and if there is, I'm just unaware of it
You are spot on with your assessment of William Albreicht. Hopefully, he will become more professional like Trent Horn over time!
Everyone has different ways of defending their faith, his character is definitely more rustic. But you have to remember he has dealt with these same arguments before and seems to be getting annoyed of the church fathers from 2000 years ago being quoted as if they held Protestant beliefs, sorry but there are little alike between the two
@@cyprianofcarthage6890 people are just so soft these days
@@cyprianofcarthage6890 I appreciate your opinion. But currently I am convinced that William does not season his speech with grace, treat others with respect, and is trying to accurately represent the person he disagrees with.
@@jackdaw6359 That may be true, but that doesn't give anyone the excuse to behave in those manners. Hopefully you agree with me here.
gavin insults people. he does it with a calm tone and mixed with honey. the deal is that gavin can't address william's arguments. william even exegeted the greek. and he provided scholarly work from numerous sources. if gavin can't even get mark of ephesus right i can't take him seriously.
This was a great review, Dr. O. I tried listening to Trent's presentation but only have so much time in the day. I find Trent bright and congenial, even if I disagree. Looking forward to the actual engagement with Trent.
One thing I noticed that kept coming up, and I think is a deeper point is the presupposition Trent holds which is the authority of the Magisterium of the Church to infallibility define Rome's dogmas and to teach with certainty its doctrines. There is a great book called "The Pope and the Professor" on the life of Johann Ignaz von Dollinger and his dispute with Pius IX at Vatican I on Papal Infallibility. The most important concept from the book was "does the Church judge history or history the Church?". I think it'd be cool to see you and Trent debate either Apostolic Succession or Papal Infallibility.
Let the games begin.
haha. you be campin here too.
For me 2 Corinthians 5:21 is possibly the best Bible Verse for refuting purgatory. It was ALL of our sins for ALL of Jesus righteousness. When you also put the verse together with many other verses that state it was “once for all” and that our sins “will be remembered no more” we know that all our sins were imputed on to Jesus and all his righteousness was imputed on to us. RC through purgatory is saying either Jesus didn’t pay for all of the sins of the whole world that’s why we still have to be purified or it’s saying that Jesus righteousness isn’t enough to purify us once for all and we still have to be purified.
Hi Gavin! I much appreciate you continuing your discussion here on purgatory by responding to Trent's response video. I have enjoyed this discussion. I appreciated your clarification in regards to how Trent framed your video. Both your views are a bit more clear to me now with both your comments and both your responses. I am looking forward to hopefully hearing you both discuss more and I hope you guys get to do it in person. Appreciate the work you are putting into this.
Good video. You're making it more difficult for me to choose between a denomination.
may the Lord guide you and give you peace.
Pray for God to guide your conscience, I will
Praying rosary 📿 to lady Carmel to get souls out of purgatory is not biblical
My fiancé was raised Catholic and the idea of choosing a church with me was (and is) still confusing and a little stressful to him because of a feeling that denomination matters, and that he'd be marrying into whatever beliefs that denomination holds.
I tried to express that denominations are meaningless other than being shorthand for clear communication about what things that specific group believes. What denomination you go to doesn't matter as long as the church itself is teaching the clear gospel and puts God and the Bible first.
What is genuinely recommended is that you look up Mike Winger's video on how to choose a church and check out some of his Q&As about what makes a healthy church and an unhealthy church so you can learn what is and isn't a good reason to go to a church or to leave a church.
Then start going to different churches in your area (I personally recommend spending 2-3 weeks at each church so you can see patterns and their traditions and not make a quick judgment based off limited perspective) until you find a church that speaks truth and is intent on fostering Christian community.
Whatever denomination you happen to be at that has he gospel correct, doesn't have red flags, has God and the Bible first, and has an eye for community, then let that be your church and your community.
Ignore the denomination on the sign for the most part. You can know things about their beliefs by the name in the sign, but you don't know if they're healthy, gospel-focused Christians until you're inside.
Don't get hung up on denomination which could cause you to choose a dying, self-centered Baptist church instead of a gospel-focused Presbyterian.
The 10 minute Bible Hour helped me learn about denominations in a lovely way, and Mike Winger helped me understand why the traditions that "separate" us are meaningless as long as the gospel isn't tampered with.
If the gospel is good, the church is good
@@bufficliff8978 One of the most paramount issues of importance to me in a church is seeing souls saved. If your church has a good soul winning ministry, God is blessing that church.
Good video. However, although historically interesting, the debate between you and Trent as to how to read the meaning of various Church fathers is ultimately something of a red herring (for a Catholic). I would simply view the divergent views as permitted theological opinions...until they weren't. In other words, a case of both development of doctrine and how the magisterium works. Eventually, the magisterium defined a number of essential elements (i.e. "definitive"). And even an understanding of those defined elements can be developed in a deeper way (i.e Cardinal Ratzinger's speculation that the fire can be an existential fire and the punitive and purgative aspects are a unity- thus upholding the "fire" but also understanding it in a way that could be a bridge to Mark of Ephesus's views. Same with his nuanced view of what constitutes punishment - which seems both realistic and orthodox to me). I have no problem with praying for souls in purgatory or indulgences(properly understood) - none of which are "anti-gospel" which is often the charge. Should they be "required" beliefs - yes if one wants to be joined to the Holy Mother Church.
I think this is a much more reasonable way to try to defend the doctrine than that sometimes taken by Catholic apologists. However I still think the absence of any early attestation is a problem, and that defining Purgatory so broadly so as to include Mark of Ephesus’ view starts to strain credulity at some point.
Trent Horn has a habit of misrepresenting the arguments of the people he rebuts, he did the same thing with one of Mike Winger's videos. I hope it's not intentional.
My jaw dropped when Trent flat out lied about pastor mike!
I just saw this nice comment
How did he misrepresent pastor mike? From what i saw it was the other way around, where mike told trent that he misrepresents catholicsm.
If he did, then he should apologize. Pastor Mike on the other hand has grossly misrepresented Catholicism time and time again.
@@a.d1287 ruclips.net/video/hIAVbck93pc/видео.html check it out for yourself.
Thank you so much for your videos Dr Ortlund, really thankful and blessed by your gentle, wise and gracious but still very deep engagement with Catholic doctrines - God really is using you! I'm not sure if you'll see this comment as you released this video a year ago now but in this video, you briefly mentioned the Catholic argument about doctrine development, and how they use the Incarnation and the Trinity to prove that doctrine has to be 'developed' or 'articulated' etc and thus they used the same argument for purgatory (and many other doctrines). How can we distinguish these? Are we actually the ones picking and choosing and how can we as Protestants argue/show that we're not? I would really love to hear your perspective on this (or even a video if you have time) - Thanks so much and God bless!
Thats actually how Trent Horn does his rebuttals. He did the same thing with Mike Winger. Your statements will be stretched to fit how his claims look correct.
As a Lutheran, I'm more biased towards Horn than Winger. But yes, I could not avoid making the same observation you did.
I think ortlunds statement is pretty clear, and so are wingers, neither Trent or anyone can stretch their arguments because they are already ready to burst from hyperextension
Mike Wingers arguments are typically not very good. I like Dr. Ortlund a lot more even though I disagree with the vast majority of his interpretations of the fathers.
Dr. Ortlund mentioned we shouldn't conflate the fathers. The point is that the Fathers did believe in post-death purification. Dr. Ortlund did mention about the belief that everyone enters into heaven immediately. That is the core of the argument.
Protestants believe there is no post-mortem purification when the early fathers did believe in one.
hello, thanks for all the comments! Did you watch the video? The bulk of it was working through five categories of example of how the fathers clearly did *not* believe in postmortem purification. Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Ephrem, Aphraht, Cyprian, John Chrysostom, etc. I'm trying to understand your comment and wondering if you watched?
@@TruthUnites
Hello Dr. Ortlund,
Thank you for reaching out to me. I did watch the video, and I was not convinced by the explanations you gave. Some of them I felt were overlooking key points in the fathers’ writings. Some of the writings you quoted I felt were not at odds with purgatory.
For instance, you looked at St. Cyprian's letter 55 starting at 22:00. You said the context of the letter is about readmitting the lapse Christians into the Church. Trent said something similar to that in his video response.
However, he did make parallelism in his writing where there is purification after death. You said in 22:26 that interpreting a continuation of the penitential process is reading into what Cyprian said because he never said that. The early fathers never said Holy Trinity and three persons sharing one divine nature, but the language is there. Likewise, the language of post-death purification is there.
In the first portion of section 20, Cyprian is alluding to repentance on earth. However, he shifted and said it one thing to be CLEANSED from sin by being PURGED BY FIRE. He also said they will be purged by all sin by suffering. I seriously doubt St. Cyprian is talking about a lapsed Christian on earth getting purged by fire when they return to the Church. Cyprian continues to say some wait until the last judgment and some receive rewards immediately. That is a clear sign that some people go through a purification process after death.
@@TruthUnites
The other writings of Cyprian you pointed to didn't address anything about purgatory or everyone going into Heaven immediately. You cited St. Cyprian Treatise and pointed languages that point to people going into Heaven immediately. That doesn't mean there is no purification process. Everyone who goes to Heaven is a friend of God regardless of whether they have to go through purgatory or not. Everyone receives a divine reward regardless of whether a person goes through purgatory or not.
You emphasized the phrase “in a moment” in Cyprian’s treatise. That doesn't mean there isn't a purification process. That process may be only a moment, and the person enters into Heaven. The Catholic Church never said how long the process is because there is no concept of time in purgatory.
You also quoted a writer on Cyprian’s commentary saying the criteria for entry into Heaven are an unspoiled faith and an unharmful mind. That doesn't mean Cyprian doesn't believe in a purification process. That is saying nothing unclean enters into Heaven. Purgatory is getting rid of the stains so you can enter unspoiled and unharmful.
You referenced Cyprian Mortality writing and talked about Christian hope. You read we passed by death into immortality, and we will not hasten to better things. That doesn't mean there is no purification process after death, and Cyprian never alluded to anything about entering into Heaven immediately. As you said, Cyprian talked to Christians about Christian hope. That is not at odds with purgatory because the people who go through purgatory have obtained Heaven. They have to clean up before entering Heaven.
You also mentioned in the writing that death is a departure and a translation to the abode of Christ. Again, nothing that was said is against purgatory. Everyone in purgatory is going to the abode of Christ. St. Cyprian never focused on the immediate entry or purification process. He simply stated people are going to Heaven.
@@TruthUnites
Towards the end, you equated Christian hope with immediate entry into Heaven. As a result, you claimed that it is at odds with purgatory. This is the biggest stretch out of this portion of the video. Purgatory doesn't take away any hope in going into Heaven. Hoping to go into Heaven doesn't mean you will immediately go into Heaven
Your surgery analogy at 27:50 supports purgatory. The doctor putting the patient to sleep is analogous to the Christian dying. The patient at once opened their eyes to health is analogous to Heaven. The surgery is purgatory. The patient went through a process and open their eyes to good health. purgatory can be considered a moment because there is no concept of time in purgatory.
The issue with your metaphor is that you said the patient have months of pain after opening their eyes to health. That is not purgatory. After the purification process through purgatory, there will be no more pain. They have entered into Heaven after purgatory. There is no more temporal punishment and suffering lost after going through purgatory.
@@TruthUnites
If you are going to emphasize language, you can't overlook the language of being PURGED OF SIN THROUGH FIRE, being cleansed by fire, and being in suspense until the final judgment. He said those words in letter 51. While mentioning lapse Christians coming into the faith, he did shift his attention to what happened after death to some people the end of section
Great pick going with Trent. He’s one of the best RC apologist and is thoughtful about what he says. I enjoy his work a lot more than self appointed amateur RUclips Roman Catholic apologist.
Trent is the best? Wow! Trent misrepresents the arguments from his opponents.
@@IvanAlvarezCPACMA
U r being nice....Trent lies .....
Ex Roman Catholic here.....
Will Most.
Trent is just a very good liar trained by the best liars and deceivers of Romanism.
But lies is no match against Christians who see right through his attempts to deceive.
Unfortunately, Catholic people have no hope of recognising these lies because they don't know the Lord and have no Spiritual understanding of the Bible.
But we will continue to try and help Catholics by preaching the Gospel truth.
That's our duty
@@parrisroy So, let me get this straight, only those who agree with your interpretation of scripture know the Lord and have Spiritual understanding, the rest are liars and deceivers? Take that all you other Protestants! You need to listen to and follow A True Saint. 2C15-21 to be saved!
I don’t think Trent is a liar and I can’t speak to his motives. He seems to genuinely believe what he believes. He is always good natured and charitable which is more than I can say for these comments. I will say that when it comes to some of the unique claims of Rome most RC apologist go into used care salesman mode to defend some of their more untenable claims. It seems to be built in to their apologetics. But I do not think Trent is an intentional deceiver. I have a lot of respect for him. I’m a staunch confessional Lutheran so I’m not defending Rome but I think Trent is a brother in Christ and tho he may be wrong on some things I will treat him with the same respect I would give to any other Christian. I don’t buy into the typical my team vs your team RUclips polemical sandbox. My alma mater is a Dominican school so please spare me generalizations. I’ve met some great Catholic Christians that would put many Protestants I know to shame in their charity and devotion to Jesus. These sweeping generalizations and putting Catholics outside the faith is just silly.
For clarity, I will now quote the exact text from 2nd Maccabees that the belief in Purgatory stems from: "On the following day, since the need had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to collect the bodies of those who had fallen and to bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. However, under the tunic of each of the dead, they found amulets that were sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. Thus it was clear to everyone that this was the reason that these men had been slain. And so they all praised the acts of the Lord, the just judge who reveals things that are hidden, and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be completely blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, since they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as a result of the sin of those who had fallen. Then he took up a collection from all of his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this, he acted in a suitable and honorable way, guided by his belief in the resurrection. For if he had not expected those who had fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. However, if he was focusing on the splendid reward reserved for those whose death was marked by godliness, his thought was holy and devout. Therefore, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead so that they might be delivered from their sin."
That's it. That's the whole thing. That's the primary foundation of Purgatory's existence, amoung a few other things. From this short account of a Hellenized Jew making a monetary offering for the dead, the Catholic Church has concluded that there is a post mortem purification process, that you can shorten this process via offerings, and that you can pray for the salvation of the dead.
Ask 10 Catholics what exactly happens in Purgatory...and you'll get 11 answers
😂😂
Why doesn't Trent face the reality that the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Church of the East all reject purgatory? If it is in the Fathers, then they all misunderstood it, and not until the second millennium does anyone suddenly understand the Fathers rightly.
6:40 Trent has managed to define "purgatory" so broadly now that all Protestants have purgatory now. Goodness gracious. All Protestants affirm that when we die, we are changed and what remains of our sinful nature is stripped away with our flesh. I hate to break it to Trent, but that ain't purgatory. Purgatory is when a person suffers in the process of expiating their own sins, and the prolonged suffering is inextricably linked to this expiation and a necessary part of it.
Jesus said on the cross, it is finished. That's good enough for me. Purgatory? I'm not worried. I live in Phoenix. 🥵
That will be deducted for time served if you offer it in union with the sufferings of Christ..
@@uncatila Agreed. Jesus caught hell on my behalf so I don't have go there, no worries, I did my time in 💩 cago.
😂😂😂😂 yes agreed
Made it to the end!
Thank you for the well researched rebuttal, and if the camera had died, would it have gone to purgatory?
"Forty days " was the season of Lent (length), which comes between the winter solstice and the spring equinox, when the days are growing longer, and the nights shorter; when the sins (Sun's S. declination) of the world (year) are being purged off, and come to nought (0) as the Sun reaches the equator. This was the purgatory of the ancients, during which a fast was kept, and is still kept by many of the moderns, in imitation of nature, to purge off their sins! The last month of the year, and the one more particularly observed was named February, from februare, to purge; because, at the end of this mouth the Sun was found at the spring equinox; and having no declination, his sins are all gone.
(Roman calendar). The sacred year/world begins and ends at the spring equinox. The new religious year begins with "Let there be light" or "he has risen."
The ancients held two festivals at opposite points of the ecliptic; one, the anagogia, or going-up of the Sun, at the spring equinox (this was the Passover of the Jews); the other the katagogia or going-down of the Sun, at the fall equinox; this was the ingathering of the Jews. This "forty days” was also styled by the Alchemists a “philosophical month." (Bees' Cyclopaedia, art. Month.)
The Dove's station was near Purgatory, i.e., near the spring equinox, at which time she returns to us, the inequalities of the days and nights having been purged off. (Faber, Pag. Idol, vol. 3, p. 343.)
Interesting point on eulogies. Didn't Joseph Smith give his claim that we can become gods in a eulogy? The King Fallet (sp) discourse? I could be wrong.
Yup. Joseph Smith was a complete and total nut. No comparison.
@@rolandovelasquez135 my point is that Trent said that because it was said in a eulogy, it can't be taken as theology, because of emotion and stuff. I was just making the observation that in a eulogy by Joseph Smith, a theology was created.
I'm not comparing, just processing
Made it to the end again! These are not too long, if that's what you're worried about!
Hello Dr Ortlund,
I deeply appreciate the work you do with the fathers, and it has inspired me to do further research into the original sources. I have one question. Why do you think that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are brethren in the faith? Do not get me wrong, I do not ask this out of any sort of hate or envy for Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, but as a former Roman Catholic, it is my understanding that the Gospel which we Protestants would propound is fundamentally different than that of Roman Catholicism. In other words, if one were to ask you what one must do to be right with God and go to heaven, your answer would be fundamentally different than that of an orthodox Roman Catholic if they were asked the same question. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, and I would love to affirm that Roman Catholics are Christians, but at this stage in my thinking I cannot do so.
Hello! Glad the videos have been of use. I will do a video on justification sometime. Essentially, I don't think the differences rise so high as to make it impossible for RC and EO to be saved. Will flesh that out when I can in the video. God bless!
Lol
Hi Mr. Beard! I chanced upon your comment when viewing this video and reading through. Just wanted to extend some compassion by way of sharing my own personal experience and opinion. You are free to of course reject. I am a protestant who views catholics and orthodox as brothers in faith this is very personal in that I have close family members who are roman catholic and have several close eastern orthodox friends. This has lead to years of discussions on various topics. My point, I believe they and their fellows are Christians every bit as much as me and know them to have have vibrant personal relationships with Christ and to take the scriptures every bit as serious as me. They also share our same faults in being ignorant and rude and childish. They just operate out of different framework of thinking and assume different traditions than us protestants. This for sure isn't a popular opinion and not one everyone will accept but one that has served me well and a view for which I thank God for. Please do feel free to test it brother!
@ZachCICM thank you for your comment it was helpful for me. My catholic brother puts it as catholics affirm what in the programming world is referred to as a state machine. He calls it a grace state machine. You can move out of a state of grace as a result of mortal sin on the basis of a passage I believe where Paul says something to the effect of some as having fallen from grace and another where John refers to a sin leading to death. Based on my research into the topic of grace and justification some during some time spent on the Solas held by the reformers it seems to me the evaluation from the catholic side seems similar to the concerns of Arminians and relate to concepts of free will and the concern that predetermined love is hardly real and free love. I found that sometimes those with a very strong calvinist bent tend to be more prone to an error of total disregard for those concerns and project the discussion at times on to true vs false gospel by projecting the galatians heresy upon catholics. To me though the catholic position is of a different nature than saying you need to do something to be saved absolutly aka circumcision...it seems to me it is more you need to not do something to maintain your state of salvation but if you done a mortal sin you uav have forgiveness available to you through repentance and sacramental confession. Please care to comment if I have made a mistake here in representing the view further.
@ZachCICM Yes I know, and that is what I have a problem with. I agree that the believer must abide in Christ, and must do good works but that such abiding is caused by being a believer, and the works flow from being saved. However, the idea that one must actively do certain works in order to be finally saved, rather than because they are saved, seems to fall under the anathema of Paul. I will here quote an extent section from Galatians which I am sure you are familiar with, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:10-12 and "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4. Both quotations are from the NASB1995. It seems to me that if the moral law aka Ten commandments is included under "law" here as used by Paul, then the mortal sin and confession system falls under this curse. Since in Romans 7 Paul says that He would not have known about coveting except through the Law, and then quotes the tenth commandment, it seems that Paul is indeed including the moral law under the umbrella of Law. Thus I cannot see how the Roman Catholic system is not anathema, since it adds works to faith. Perhaps I am wrong, and I have misunderstood something, but as of now, I cannot see where I am [please show me if you see where]. I would certainly love to affirm that you are my brother, but right now, I do not think I can.
I don't think you need to respond to Trent. Trent regularly mischaracterizes positions and builds straw-man arguments, instead, I think you should continue to make concise videos that focus on the crux of the issues and their support. Those videos are much more helpful than rebuttal expeditions of 4 hour videos.
I have also noticed over several years of watching Trent that he paints a picture that tends to misrepresent or obfuscate.
YES!!!! It’s the only way he can bring about a contrary point by shifting the original point to something he can argue against. He does this with every protestant.
@@HillbillyBlackhis and fradd both
Trent is not the best in my opinion
Great video! Thank you.
The fundamental element of the entire discussion is really whether or not purgatory ( Post Mortem Purification ) exists at all , and was it taught by the fathers and early church >>> ( ESSENCE OF BELIEF )
This is the point that Trent made;; That the Church Fathers did agree on this essence of belief ... that certain people can and do enter a state of purgatory ( Post Mortem cleansing ) after death
This is what is meant by "essential element".
If the church fathers taught of a purifying post Mortem condition but disagreed or had varying views on on what, how, where, and when etc, then we can say that those varying opinions are secondary to the belief that Purgatory exists.
Secondary elements (might be things like what happens to a person in purgatory ...?? Why does purgatory exist ?? How long do people stay there for ??? Can others pray for them to get them out ??? . . How much pain do they suffer ?? Do they suffer any pain at all ?? Can they pray for us whilst in purgatory ?? ( ESSENCE OF NATURE )
Gavin isn't necessarily wrong about the essential elements of purgatory not being taught by the Fathers as they pertain to things like indulgences and expiatory purification, but that's really irrelevant to that belief itself, namely that purgatory exists, as am essential belief held by the church over the past 2000 years.
I really love Albrecht's exhaustive info, but he seems way more interested in discrediting the person vs the claim.
The concept of purgatory not only is one that develops apart from scripture, it develops IN SPITE of scripture.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The idea that we have some level of sin that either
1. MUST be cleansed post-mortem
2. CAN be cleansed post-mortem through suffering
not only lacks scriptural authority but was created in spite of scripture.
So much of what I see appearing out of RC is INSUFFICIENCY. The insufficiency of Christ's atonement, the INSUFFICIENCY of justification by faith, the insufficiency of Christ AS a redeemer (Mary as Co-Redemptrix). Why is Christ insufficient? Why is the Son of God NOT enough?
IF I believe that purgatory is necessary, I am forced to reason that Christ isn't enough. IF I believe my works can save me or are required FOR my salvation, I must therefore logically conclude that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough. IF I believe that Mary is a Co-Redemptrix, I must logically believe that Jesus wasn't enough. In all of these instances I am adding something to the Word of God that isn't there. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees come to mind. One of their greatest sins were adding things to scripture that weren't there and then judging people for failing to honor the additions, placing traditions equal to scripture.
Well Trent, now it’s your turn for the rebuttal of the rebuttal of the rebuttal of the rebuttal.
Was looking forward to this
The Catholics commenting on Trent's video are living in an echo chamber.
Anyone can say that
Means nothing
The Protestants commenting on Gavin's video are living in an echo chamber.
@@a.d1287 Anyone can write that, yes.
@@a.d1287 means nothing, means nothing...yes
Glad you called out william Albrechts style of debate,unfortunately his style is often very abrasive,combative and comes across as rude. The polar opposite of your approach Dr ortland.
if gavin is going to foray into the apologetics he needs to develop thicker skin. the real reason why gavin won't respond to albrecht is because he can't refute the arguments.
ruclips.net/video/N6qHBKuFxhI/видео.html
@@qatoliqayaqushta6889 well,I have personal experience of william,after I called indulgences a fictitious currency for a fictitious place (purgatory) he called me a freak.
It's not a great approach to good debate and dialogue so I have some sympathy with Gavins position.
@@qatoliqayaqushta6889 just to add a little more weight behind my original comment,in a debate with protestant apologist Dr Michael brown on certain catholic dogmas proven through the New testament,William,to Dr browns frustration,was unable to stick to the brief,and drew in the early church fathers writings time and again to defend his position.
@@qatoliqayaqushta6889 will makes me laugh with his comments on how he didn’t insult Gav but Gav needs to grow thicker skin. Reminds me of when children lie and try to come up with as many defences as possible.
Great job!
What is the Catholic understanding of the passage of those who were in Abraham's Bosom into heaven? Did they have to make a "pit stop" cleansing in Purgatory?
I made it to the end! 👍🏻
Ah but did you listen to all of Gavin's original, then all of Trent's rebuttal aswell.. and while we are on, the Mike Winger-Trent Horn dialogue 🙂
@@ProfYaffle yes I have.
@@duncanchance oh well done! To my shame, I've not made it through all of Trent's - but have tried!
Hey Gavin, enjoing the dialogue on all your videos especially your interaction with Catholicism. Can I ask what led you to researching/reading Brian Daley's book? Thanks!
Purgatory = works
Grace = salvation (Jesus paid the price in full)
Purgatory is worse than works though. No matter what your works, it's additional punishment, because your best efforts are never enough. The most mortifying part for me is that we already know that, which is why Christ died in our place. Yet not even Christ's atonement is enough.
@@saintejeannedarc9460your not going to like reading the Bible.
However when you read about the day of the lord..which Ortland forgets. You read first it futuristic. Second it brings purification, it is painful and some are destroyed others passed through and other cleansed. Etc there is over 20 verses about the day of the lord. And way more verses and parable that indicate post death cleansing and even post death punishment. He goes over zero and doesn't mention day of the lord. And there is parable of post death punishment even for believers sorry
Made it till the end. Very interesting .
Nice use of the word "interlocutor." at 1:15. It's one of my favorite words :p
haha. Me too. I recently used it in my personal statement while making an application to a University 😀
@@msmutola682 hope they offer you a place and you are studying something lovely
If Jesus is God, then the salvation Jesus gives is powerful and complete. Jesus triumphed for us all! He did not need help from Mary or the Saints. As the hymn states in the lyrics: “Jesus Paid It All!” This was God’s plan from the beginning. The Hebrew original letters of the name breaks down to “Behold the HAND behold the NAIL”. Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world. This was God’s eternal plan which was perfect and completely acceptable as God has foreseen all from the beginning. This is why all who are in Him, were also foreseen.
The church fathers can and did get many things wrong. I see no scriptural evidence (I’ve looked at the verses Catholics point to) for purgatory. You have to be reading into the text to somehow draw that conclusion.
no purgatory in the bible.
@ 1:50. Yup. Not only that but the guy yells constantly. Never seen anything like it in my life. And I'm 68. Just sayin'. And, in stark contrast to the aforementioned apologist,
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."
When your faith is being attacked over and over it is very acceptable to get upset, how about you read revelation where Jesus has swords for toungues, or read the gospel where he says he as come to set mother against daughter and son against father
Also you probably don’t know realize what meek means in this context, Ummm yes Jesus can be meek, but he is also the same God that sent plagues upon Egypt, God is a jealous God, he defends his own.
Dr gavin i feel that the early church resembles catholicsm and its teachings alot more than your particular denomination's teachings. So if you were to crtiticise catholics for not meeting the bar, can you show us how your denomination meets the bar you have set that you believe catholism does not meet?
Hey there, I highly recommend the book “The Church of Rome at the Bar Of History” by William Webster! He tackles these exact questions you’re asking. The book is well-received and it was written by a former Catholic who turned Protestant after studying the early church fathers and history.
@@tuav can you breifly answer my qns than? Since i presume you are familiar with this material.
I did not think Gavin was criticising Catholics for not meeting the bar, but rather is seeking theological truth, as we all should be.
Instead of commenting on Gavin's video, interestingly, you appear to be criticising Gavin's denomination. There's a feeling of deflection and adhomenin (albeit denominational rather than personal criticism).
@@ProfYaffle im not quite sure whats your point, im not attacking him. He is making a protestant critique of catholism. Just asking dr gavin to be consistent with his own beliefs
The difference is I never *claimed* that my views on the afterlife are universal among the fathers. Catholic apologists do say that about purgatory, and that is what I'm responding to. We have to measure each tradition in light of what it claims for itself. Having said that, yes, I think Protestantism is generally more catholic than Roman Catholic teaching.
is very difficult to interpret the church father's writings in it's original context, we need to look into the Bible alone to see if there any support for the idea of purgatory.
“Muh magisterium says so” circular kind of reasoning is what you will get as a response.
@The Hesychast Right now I don't follow any denomination, however I think Eastern Orthodox Church is the closest, I'm very ignorant in patristics though.
That's why I'm studying.
@The Hesychast easy, read scripture and interpret correctly to i.e. historical grammatical and literal. Aka PLAIN meaning.
RCs constantly points to tradition or church fathers as if both are equal with the word of God - sorry, early father's allegorized scripture and didn't get everything right. Only God is perfect.
@@IvanAlvarezCPACMA agreed and I have deeply studied scripture and have read quite a bit of the writings of the Christians in the first 800 years of Christianity and while I don’t dismiss historical theology and enjoy it quite a bit, they get things wrong all the time (ironically enough especially the earliest guys who should have the purest doctrine and clearest understanding of the traditions if the RC or EO claims were right and their traditions weren’t historical innovations).
Just imagine Paul in the first century requiring believers in Christ to believe in Mary being an ever virgin and being sinless and this being a requirement for salvation. Or him expecting believers to bow down before icons of Angels, Christ and other Christians kissing them even if it goes against their conscience. That is unthinkable if you have deeply studied scripture in its historical/ grammatical context.
Most of the leading Christian scholars are evangelical so I don’t understand why anyone would think deeply studying scripture requires RC or EO. Some of the most known online EO apologists have learned their biblical theology (typology, partial preterism, historical context etc.) from Protestant theologians.
For example Kabanes whole understanding of the biblical Metanarrative is based on Peter Leithart, NT Wrights and James B Jordan’s work (when he already was EO). He then used that framework and married it it with the Eastern Orthodox traditions and teachings. Why is that? Because only reading the scriptures through EO traditions won’t give you as deeply an understanding of the scriptures (especially the OT) which is why most of them rely on evangelical works which they then marry with their traditions. It’s Protestantism that has given Catholics and EO laity the opportunity to read their Bible in their language and to study the scriptures with great historical scholarship and to engage in biblical theology.
That's because faith is the gift of God. Not just anyone will believe the truth.
1:00:55 I made it to the end. Great video!
You sir are quite polite for a gangsta
The way Dr. Ortlund interprets church fathers is simply not the way Catholics interprets the church fathers. All Trent was trying say is that even as early as the church fathers era there were already a circulating belief about purgatory. However, it doesn't mean that all that the church fathers got all the details 100% accurate. As to how to the Catholic church came up with the dogma of purgatory, that's a whole different topic. Catholics believe that God reveals more and more of his truth over time and that's why Catholic church's understanding has been developing over time. The reason church fathers brought into the picture on this discussion is just to point out that even before protestant reformation, highly respected Christians already believed in purgatory.
If there's a single most important takeaway point here, it's that even early Christians didn't operate in a Sola Scriptura-manner. Even the most fundamental dogma of Holy Trinity can't be able to be explained convincingly through Sola Scriptura, and this is precisely why there are denominations that reject Jesus' divinity (i.e. Jehovah's Witness)
I'm sort of amazed that you doubled down on mischaracterizing the nature of the disagreement between Catholics and Orthodox on this topic, even after being corrected. Once again, neither the Catholics nor the Orthodox deny that there is a post-mortem purification process for the faithful where the prayers/liturgy of the Church is efficacious in reducing the degree/magnitude of purgation. This is an apostolic doctrine and it's dogmatized for the East in at least two councils, one pan-orthodox (universally accepted) and another local:
"And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented - by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction - [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not." - Decree 18, Council of Jerusalem
"But both the souls of the holy and the righteous go indisputably to paradise and those of the sinners go to hades, of whom the profane and those who have sinned unforgivably are punished forever and those who have offended forgivably and moderately hope to gain freedom through the unspeakable mercy of God. For on behalf of such souls, that is of the moderately and forgivably sinful, there are in the Church prayers, supplications, liturgies, as well as memorial services and almsgiving, that those souls may receive favour and comfort. Thus when the Church prays for the souls of those who are lying asleep, we hope there will be comfort for them from God, but not through fire and purgatory, but through divine love for mankind, whereby the infinite goodness of God is seen." - Council of Constantinople 1772
What Catholics and Orthodox disagree on is how to metaphysically best express this Apostolic doctrine. But in its substance we do not disagree with each other. We do, however, disagree with you and with your notions of extrinsic, purely juridical justification that has no place for *any* type of post-mortem purification. There's a similar dynamic with regards to grace: both Catholics and Orthodox believe in a synergistic, participatory soteriology but, again, we disagree on how that's best metaphysically expressed.
It's simply false that the only differences between RCC and EO on the afterlife are matters of metaphysical expression. (Not sure where you thought this was "corrected.") The differences include the matters I mentioned in my videos, such as the role of the language of fire, the temporal/eternal punishment distinction that defines the nature and necessity of the suffering, the role of sacrifices such as indulgences, and other matters of how the doctrine is taught and held in the church. The fact that there are agreements on some points does not cancel out the disagreements on these other important points. Hence the official Orthodox rejections that I referenced. Do you not think this was disputed at Florence? Why do you think Josiah Trenham calls purgatory nonsense? Or do you not think this assertion of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is valid?
"The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (aplace of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which thesouls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for theirsins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where everysoul is perfect and fit to see God. Also, the Orthodox Church does not believein indulgences as remissions from purgatorial punishment. Both purgatory andindulgences are inter-corelated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in theAncient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evilpractices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If AlmightyGod in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of thesinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteenhundred years without such a theory."
Also, to add to Gavin’s point: look at the 1772 text you yourself have quoted. The prayers and supplications in question are offered for a certain class of *unrighteous* people in hades (those who have not sinned unforgivably). It’s actually very clear on what happens to the righteous.
@@TruthUnites I provide two citations from Orthodox councils (one of which is pan-Orthodox) and you respond with an out-of-context quote from Fr. Josiah Trenham.
I'm not arguing that the Orthodox and Catholic doctrine on post-mortem purification are absolutely identical. What I'm saying is that every Apostolic Church has some expression of a necessary post-mortem purification process for those that are faithful but die in sin. Why do they ubiquitously have this doctrine? Well, again, because it's Apostolic. It's only the various Protestant denominations that deny it because Protestant soteriology (extrinsic righteousness) is alien to the Apostolic faith.
Next, you should stop conflating the doctrine itself with various abuses and misapplication of said doctrine. Indulgences are an abuse of this Apostolic doctrine that the Eastern Orthodox reject. What the Eastern Orthodox don't reject, however, is that the Church and the faithful are active participants in expediting this post-mortem purgation for the deceased faithful. That's why we all pray for the dead. That's why the Divine Liturgy is also for the dead.
In general, and as a broad hermeneutic, the Romans, Byzantines and Orientals have different expressions of the Apostolic faith. The Romans are more legal/juridical in their expression; the Byzantines are more metaphysical/philosophical; and the Orientals are more poetic/allegorical. This doesn't mean that the differences between the Roman Church, the Byzantine Church and the Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches are purely semantic. What it does mean, however, is that the legitimate differences between these Churches are far and few between and tend to be highly nuanced in nature. Unfortunately, you're glossing over that nuance.
Did St. Mark take issue with the Roman expression of this doctrine, where the length of the purgation is directly tied to the quantity of sin and where a new compartment of Hades was introduced? Yes, he did. But he did not oppose, again, the substance of the dogma.
@@cultofmodernism8477 the two statements you quoted do not detract in any way from my point about the differences between Catholic and Orthodox conceptions of the afterlife, so far as I can see. In fact the 2nd rejects that this process is through "fire and purgatory," which supports my point of view. I did not merely quote Trenham, I referenced Florence and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America -- did you miss the quote I produced? I'm curious for your answer to my question about its validity.
Your general point that all the apostolic churches belief in a postmortem process and prayers for the dead is a fair and forceful point. MY point is that this is not purgatory, as defined by the Catholic church. Referencing indulgences is not conflating the doctrines with its abuses, because indulgences are part of Catholic teaching concerning purgatory. I think you are failing to define the word "purgatory" as the Catholic church has defined it, and as other churches have historically appraised it. The two quotes you produced actually support that point.
@@TruthUnites One questin for you. Do you believe that the Orthodox are much closer to the Catholics on this issue than are the Protestants? Or is it your position that both the Orthodox and the Protestants equally reject the Catholic doctrine of purgatory? Because you seem to have this binary view where there's either agreement or disagreement, and little-to-no wiggle room between.
No point going on a back and forth..Just an honest loving debate between each other will settle things
Overall, the historical Patristic witness supports more of the Eastern Orthodox view.
Eastern Orthodox believe in Purgatory.
In the dogmatically binding Pan-Orthodox *Synod of Jerusalem 1672* , we see in *Decree 18* that it states:
“And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance - by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction - *of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed;* especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.”
babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044024477861&view=2up&seq=162&skin=2021&q1=release
Wait a second, so there are those who die and endure the temporary punishments like that of hellfire for their sins, but they will be released from good works and prayers. So we see Eastern Orthodox now officially believe in purgatory.
Interestingly enough, the Pan Orthodox binding synod of Jassy held a couple decades before the dogmatically binding synod of Jerusalem directly contradicts this! Showing that Eastern Orthodoxy is false and don’t have the power to bind and loose, since they are not under the Supreme Pontiff.
In the *Synod of Jassy 1642,* they took a confession from their Eastern Orthodox saint, Peter Mogila, they edited it and asserted that it was authoritative. This is a dogmatically binding pan-orthodox synod as four of the Orthodox Patriarchs signed the documents. *In question 66 of the authoritative catechism produced from the Synod, they assert*
Question 66. What are we to think of the Fire of Purgatory ?
Answer.
*It is nowhere taught in the holy Scriptures that there is any temporary Punishment, whereby the Soul, after Death, may be purged.* On the contrary, *the Church, in the second Council of Constantinople, did condemn Origen for this very Opinion.* Moreover, it is evident that the Soul, when once departed, cannot again become a partaker of the Sacraments of the Church. Could this be, that the Soul could satisfy there for Sins committed in this Life, then, by like Reason, it might partake of the Sacraments of Penance there ; which being contrary to orthodox Doctrine, the Church rightly and wisely offers the unbloody Sacrifice for those Souls, together with her Prayers, that they may be forgiven those things wherein they had offended, whilst they continued in this Life : *And not that they might be delivered from any Punishment that they were then suffering for a Time only. Our Church doth not admit or approve of such Fables as some Men have fancied concerning the State of Souls after Death ; as that they are tormented in Pits and Waters, and with sharp Prongs, when they are snatched away by Death before they can have done sufficient Penance for their Faults.*
archive.org/details/cu31924029363094/page/n61/mode/2up
So in a matter of a couple decades the Eastern Orthodox go from saying Purgatory is nowhere taught in Scripture and is condemned, to asserting that it’s true. That’s a clear refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy. And it’s interesting since Purgatory was one of the main things the Eastern Orthodox debated at various reunion councils, vindicating Christ’s Church - the Catholic Church.
@@dwong9289 The following will help explain the differences:
Observations on Purgatory by Met. Macarius (Bulgakov) of Moscow (1816-1882)
Taken from “Orthodox Dogmatic Theology”, Vol. II, pg. 725
The doctrine of the Roman Church on Purgatory has some resemblance to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church on the possibility for some sinners to be released from the bonds of Hades by the prayers of the living, although it has also some difference. To properly judge between the one and the other one must understand the teaching as set forth by the Roman theologians themselves.
I. They distinguish in the doctrine of Purgatory two parts: the ‘essential part’, or what has been decreed and taught by their church as dogma, and the inconsequential, that is to say, what has not been fixed by their Church and forms the object of theological opinions. The first part refers only to two points:
a) there is a purgatory, that is to say a place or state of atonement (status expiationis) in which the souls of those who died without having received absolution for even slight faults, or even after obtaining absolution for their sins, but without enduring in this life the temporal punishment for sins, suffer torment to satisfy Divine Justice, until they have been purified by these torments and have become worthy of eternal felicity.
b) the souls of those in Purgatory are in great need of prayer to aid them, such as alms, and especially the Bloodless Sacrifice.
As regards the non-essential teaching relates the solution of the following questions:
a) Is Purgatory a specific place or not, and if so, where is it? Are the sufferings of the souls in the purgatorial fire real or metaphorical?
b) How long are souls in purgatory? How are they aided by the prayers of the Church? (2)
II .- Stopping our thoughts on the essential part of the Roman doctrine concerning Purgatory, we find some resemblance to that of the Orthodox Church on the prayers for the dead, and at the same time some differences.
1) There is similarity in the fundamental idea. Indeed, the Orthodox Church teaches, like that of Rome: -- a) that the souls of some of the dead, namely those who died in faith and repentance, but without having had time to bring in life fruit worthy of repentance, and therefore, did not manage to receive from God complete forgiveness of their sins and be purified, undergo torments until they are deemed worthy of forgiveness and cleansed ; -- b) that in such cases the souls of the dead are benefited by prayers for them from those of their brothers in Christ who are still living, their works of charity, and especially the Offering of the Bloodless Sacrifice.
2. The differences, in particular, are: a) According to the doctrine of the Orthodox Church the aforesaid souls of the dead are suffering because, although they repented before death, they have not had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, and therefore to deserve God’s complete forgiveness of their sins, and, thus, to actually be purified, and to overcome the natural consequences of sin, punishment; whereas, according to the doctrine of the Church of Rome, the souls of the dead suffer in Purgatory, strictly because they have not suffered here below the temporal punishment needed for sins in satisfaction of Divine Justice;. b) According to the Orthodox doctrine, these souls are purified of sins and deserve God’s forgiveness, not by themselves and of their own suffering but by the prayers of the Church and by the power of the Bloodless Sacrifice; with these same prayers not only benefiting the souls suffering, but mitigating their position, freeing them from the torment [2], whereas, according doctrine of the Roman Church, it is by their same suffering that souls are purified in Purgatory and thus Divine Justice is satisfied, and the prayers of the Church serve only to give them some relief in this condition. [3]
3) Moreover, although the differences between the Roman doctrine of Purgatory and the Orthodox doctrine of prayer for the dead are over these particulars, nevertheless, these are important, and we cannot accept the differences. For upon these differences we find both false things and a reversal of fundamental dogma:
a) the first idea is false, as we have already seen, [4] that is, that a sinner who repents before dying should still bring a kind of satisfaction to divine justice for his sins undergoing some temporal punishment for this purpose, and that in Purgatory, for lack of being able to suffer here below. Complete satisfaction to Divine Justice, the same superabundant satisfaction, was Presented once and for all, for all sinners, through Jesus Christ Our Savior, Who took upon Himself the sins of the world and all punishment for sin; and, to obtain complete forgiveness of God and freedom from all punishment of sin, sinners have to appropriate the merits of the Redeemer, that is to say, believe in Him, truly repent of their sins, bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, i.e., good deeds. Consequently, if there are sinners who, having repented before they died, have, despite this, torments to endure after death, it is only because they do not have time to fully appropriate the merits of the Savior, either because of the weakness of their faith in Him or by an effect of the failure of their repentance, and mainly because they did not bear fruits worthy of repentance, and were not actually purified from sin, as the Orthodox Church teaches.
b) it is no less a misconception that sinners would be purified in Purgatory and satisfy divine justice by their own torments. In whatever sense the fire of Purgatory is understood, either literally or in a figurative sense, in none of these senses can we ascribe this to God. If you attach a literal meaning to the fire, then, the fire by its very nature is incapable of purifying a soul which is a simple and immaterial spiritual essence. If you attach a figurative meaning, that is to say, the fire is an inner torment of the soul due to its consciousness of its past sins and the deep contrition for them, then, in that case, this cannot purify the soul in the life beyond the grave, because in the life after death there is no longer a place for repentance, nor for merit or any personal self-correction as Roman Catholics believe. And as long as the soul remains in sin, not purified and renewed, until then, whatever it may have to endure, it can in no way satisfy by its own suffering the Divine Justice and overcome these inevitable consequences of sin. [5]
c) If the souls of some of the dead suffer in Purgatory, even repentant sinners must necessarily suffer a temporal punishment for sin in satisfaction to Divine Justice, and, if the souls suffering in Purgatory are truly cleansed and meet their obligation to Divine Justice, then, the question is, “What is the point of prayers and the general intercession of the Church in their favour?” The souls in Purgatory necessarily have to suffer until they have fulfilled the desired satisfaction and have been purified by suffering; now, if the prayers of the Church only weaken and alleviate that suffering, instead of shortening the period of time that souls must pass in Purgatory, they (the prayers) prolong it and therefore are less useful than harmful. Does this not, of course, overturn the fundamental idea of the dogma of the prayers for the dead?
Continued:
III. - If we now turn our attention to the non-essential part of the Roman doctrine concerning Purgatory, being theological opinions we find that it differs much more from the doctrine of the Orthodox Church on prayer for the dead, though on issues of little importance judging by their intimate meaning. Let us mention the two most remarkable:
1) The Orthodox Church teaches there is no intermediate class after death between those who are saved and go to heaven, and those who are condemned, and go to Hades; there is not a particular intermediate place where souls go who did penance before death and are subject to the prayers of the Church; all those souls go to Hades, where they can only be freed by its prayers. [6] Most Roman theologians consider Purgatory as a special intermediary place between heaven and hell, and sometimes placed in the vicinity thereof, in the interior of the earth, sometimes close to that one, sometimes in the air. There are others, however, who see in purgatory, not a place apart, but a particular state of souls, and recognize that the souls in this state can undergo their temporal punishment and be purified even where are contained those condemned to eternal punishment (that is to say, to hell); thus, there can be found in the same prison inmates sentenced to temporary imprisonment and prisoners condemned forever. (7)
2) The Orthodox Church strongly rejects the teaching of a Purgatorial fire, in the truest sense of the word, which cleanses the soul. (8) A great number of Roman theologians consider this fire as real and material (this being the almost universal belief of the laity of the Roman confession), and to garner proof of their teaching they attempt to collect from the Holy Scriptures and from the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church references that seem to refer to such a fire (9). Others, however, understand the fire of Purgatory in a figurative sense, for spiritual torment, and therefore cite in their treaties on the subject similar evidence either from the word of God, or the writings of the Fathers, adding that the ancient Doctors themselves were of varied opinions on the fire (10). It would therefore be superfluous even to refute the evidence given. It is finally noted that in general their church has not determined precisely what the fire of Purgatory is, if it is material or not, and therefore it does not belong to faith to understand it in one way or another (11).
We will say nothing of other opinions concerning Purgatory, for example, how long a soul remains, and if they are all suffer the same space of time for the same penalties; what penalties they face; if they are more stringent than those of the present life and lighter than those of hell; if souls in purgatory pray for themselves and for us who are still in this world; if they give themselves up to the practice of good works, etc., etc. All these opinions have little value even to theologians of Rome and few seriously engaged themselves in answering them (12).