Hey everyone, two things I made a mistake, around 17:44 and said his sister, I meant his cousin lol my bad😭 And number two, it’s recently come to my attention that I tend to pronounce words like unfortunately like unfortunateckly? And it wasn’t untill this video did I notice that LOL💀 I have multiple accents and different enunciations, I use my American accent when making videos but I still mix words together sometimes: specifically with definitely & unfortunately hihi, I’ll definitely be aware of that! But if it comes out of me naturally, it is what it is😎🫶🏽 Thank you all sm, and I’ll be working a new analysis soon ❤
It's too bad she's a cyberbully (if what I hear is true), because she is a great actress and singer. It's been a while since I saw a good female lead in today's mainstream midia.
Dr Gaul enabled him to become who President Snow. She him the immunity in the Hunger Games and overlook all his cheating. Any other women he is close to except his Grandma was not removed fr his life. He was allowed to keep the rose and always wear the ros(his mother passed away so no longer a threat).
i like to think that he associated his status with his family. As tigris showed more empathy to the districts, she couldve been a constant nagging reminder of the innocent child he used to be. Thus, he probably thought she wasnt a true Snow.
this might be a stretch but that scene in the book talking abt his mothers eyes and how badly he wanted more traits of hers to me seemed almost like a foreshadowing that he was destined to see the world through his fathers eyes therefore taking actions like his father and the ideas bred into him by grandma’am like “when your president… you like your father…” etc almost makes him believe that being like his father and having power is the only way to survive
and tigris also says she only saw hatred on his father's eyes, so if he has his father's, that means he's also full of hatred. being kind was never an option for him.
the part at the end when his mother's powder that always smelt like her were ruined but snow's fathers compass remained intact really mirrored how he went from being very close to his mother in the beginning of the book to being very alike his father and now seeing him as a role model
@@ritika9958 Yeah, near the end of the book he throws away everything associated with his mother while keeping his father's compass. Not metaphorically, he throws out the powder and the family photos.
Dr Gaul is definitely meant to be seen as a mother figure to snow. Her name is proof. Coriolanus is named after the general in the Shakespeare play about a very successful general with a distain for plebians. His mother in the play, who shapes his evilness, is named Volumnia. VOLUNMIA GAUL IS NAMED AFTER HER. Suzanne absolutely meant her to be his "mother". She was also an OBSTETRICIAN, someone who helps deliver babies and looks after them, before she worked in military strategy. Her whole character is based around motherhood. Also such an amazing point that Gaul could've seen punishing Clemmie as her way of protecting her "mutt", one of her "babies"
This is like when I learned Darth Vader is the German translation to dark father. Like that kind of fascinating knowledge is something I kind of hyper focus on
@@222daleyunfortunately, it’s not. “Darth” doesn’t mean anything in German and father is vaTer not vaDer which is Dutch and pronounced differently. Dark is “dunkel” and “donker” respectively. Pretty sure George said himself that the name was just an accident..
I also agree that Snow never loved Lucy. It was obsession. Throughout the book he (in a very possessive way) refers to Lucy Gray as "his". He doesn't even want her to have a life outside of him, and he couldn't care less about the songs she sings UNLESS it is about him. And just like with possessions, once he's done with her...he throws her away. In tbosas book this is all made much more clear. I guess the argument could be made that he loved her to the best of his ability..but even then I still think it was more obsession than anything.
Snow loved Lucy Grey, which is shown by the fact he was willing to run away with her and leave his family and the capital behind, because if he really didn't love her, he wouldn't have run away with her and left his family and the capital behind, and I think if Lucy Grey stayed with us now, he wouldn't have turned out as evil as he did in the Hunger Games. It's also worth noting that a lot of the awful things he does in the Ballad of Song Birds and Snakes movie are not purely selfish because, before he portrayed Sejanus, he found out from Tigers that they lost the Snow family house, which obviously made him worried and more determined to get back to the capital. So the reason he portrayed Sejanus was because he was from Snow's perspective, engaging in rebel activity, and if he got caught, would be executed as well for knowing him, meaning he would never be able to go back to Tigris and Grandma'am like he promised. So the reason he portrayed Sejanus was so he could go back to the capital and help his family. I also get the impression that's part of the reason he turns on Lucy Grey because she had all the evidence to turn him in and get him executed, which would prevent him from going back to his family, and by that point, he didn't trust her, and in his paranoia, he thought she was going to rat him out to the peacekeepers.
@@matthewbeniamin4834In the book it becomes quite clear, that he runs away to save his ass. The fact that he runs away together with Lucy Gray is more of an ‘extra’ that he interprets as love. Once they are in the woods, he almost despises the idea of being a nobody somewhere in the unknown. Which sums up Lucy Grays deepest desires. Even if he loved him, he loved her for her looks, her charm, the success and the victory she brought him. He never loved her idea of life, her morals, her mind, song texts etc. At one point in the book where he is ‘trapped’ at work in the military base and she is free, he wishes back the time, where she was trapped in the capitol and he was free.
suzanne collins did say multiple times he did come to love her, yall act like you know more than the author. i genuinely think he did love her, just that he was always willing to choose himself and power over anything, even the people that he cared, which makes it more evil in my opinion.
Something I kept wondering while reading the book was whether Lucy even had any feelings for Coriolanus, for all there's quite a lot of focus on if Coriolanus was really in love with her or just the idea of her or even just the idea of love, there's so little discussion as to whether Lucy loved him. Especially as what we know about her personality, backstory and relationships with others is told through Coriolanus' gaze. I always felt like she was just pretending to love him in order to survive the games and then have an easier time of it back in District 12. But it made me wonder if Snow subconsciously picked up on that and that was why he was so harsh towards Katniss too, when she was pretending to be in love with Peeta. Not just because of the charged political situation, but that innate feeling of hurt and betrayal was running underneath too.
I felt the same. He really is just self serving. I don’t think she loved him it felt like survival and a bit of Stockholm syndrome to an extent. more so I think he realized he was getting played when he heard her really paid attention to her singing. When Katnis does it and he can see right through it I think it bothers him more that no one else does more than feeling betrayed. That’s why he makes them go to extremes to make him believe as well. Idk very interesting thoughts that I will continue to think about 😂
yes, I think so too. When I was reading the books, she seemed to only be interested in him if it serves her. Not that she wasn't kind to her own people,, but it is a little laced with hidden motives.
@Ch50304 Yeah, exactly. If anything I found it a bit odd that people thought their relationship was just a straight forward romance. I just felt she was playing him which given the symbolism of the games and musical instruments seems apt.
I don't see how that's up for debate at all as soon as you get to the third part of the book. Or even before - when she fought for the compact and then took all the blame for the poisonings and the cheating of rules on herself. Once he gets to District 12 and she's overjoyed to see him and immediately shows her love for him, there's no debate. She had absolutely no reason to keep up any charade if any such charade ever existed. They were dating, she introduced him to her family, she wrote a beautiful love song for/about him, wrote another song asking him to run away with her, and ran away with him. What else do you need?
You did excellent job, one thing many people also noticed is at least physical similarities of Katniss and Peeta and Snow and Lucy as couples. It must have been nightmare to see them on screen even if he knew that at least Katniss pretended to love Peeta in first game. In his twisted mind he thinks Lucy betrayed him, he even said something like "At what point he (Peeta) become aware of your indifference"
It adds even more to his demand that Katniss convince him of her love for Peeta as well. I just can't decide who he was convinced Katniss was actually more like, Lucy Gray or himself, given his penchant for projection.
Totally! And if I remember correctly Snow even described Peeta as a “lovely boy” and we all know Peeta is probably just as smart as Snow was at that age. I think he saw himself in Peeta (even if it hat assessment was skewed) which makes him high jacking him and making Katniss seem life-threatening in all of his memories feel like a metaphor of how he’s dealt with his perceived betrayal from Lucy Gray throughout his life. He probably even thought he was doing Peeta a favor by letting him kill katniss, his own Lucy Gray. I think that if Peeta wasn’t an inherently empathetic and kind person he could have even ended up as Snow’s protégé! But ironically, even thought Peeta’s mother was the exact opposite of Snow’s, I think growing up in district 12 rather than the Capitol made him kind and empathetic of people in the districts, therefore ensuring that he would never become the next Snow.
YES I was just talking with a friend yesterday about that scene in catching fire when Snow comes to Katniss’ place talking about her and Peeta and how strangely invested he is in their relationship. He asks “at what point did he recognize the depth of your indifference towards him?” Later when she says she’ll convince the people that she and Peeta are in love he responds “No. Convince me.” Clearly this man saw Katniss as a representation of the evil woman who left him and betrayed him when he was Peeta’s age.
@@TheOtherBoobJustDropped That's funny because there's really at least as many if not more similarities between Snow and Katniss, and Peeta and Lucy Gray, and Lucy Gray was definitely more of the Peeta to Snow's Katniss. Katniss' mix of motivations during the Games can be compared to Snow's, and Dean Highbottom even calls him out on it in the movie, and accuses him of being a selfish user like his father in the book (in a confrontation that reminds me a bit of Snow's with Katniss). Suzanne puts Snow in so many similar situations as Katniss, and both of them are introverted pragmatists bent on survival with a mostly distrusting and pessimistic nature (at least Katniss is in the beginning), but Snow is fundamentally selfish, while Katniss is fundamentally unselfish. Katniss always questions herself and feels guilty, whenever Snow feels guilt he quickly finds ways to justify himself. Katniss underestimated herself, Snow is incredibly narcissistic. Katniss opens herself up to people and proves that compassion and love can be a strength, while Snow closes himself off and becomes fully immersed in paranoia and hate.
Okay snow losing his humanity as he gives the pieces he has left of his mother away!! Such a good point. I’m rereading the series now because of the movie and and the way Suzanne Collins deals with gender in the whole series is so interesting and this is such a great analysis.
True, we talked about that in one of my classes at college and when you think about it, Katniss is very much influenced by the men in her life. Her father, who taught her how to hunt, for years her closest bond with anyone outside her family is with Gale, later there is Cinna, who is responsible for her image as the girl on fire and even designed her Mockingjay get ups, Peeta, who is responsible for the whole star crossed lovers debactle (and boy did those have consequences!), Haymitch as their mentor also plays his part in making her the Mockingjay. With Snow, most of the major influences on his life are the women he "cares" about, his mother, grandmother, Tigris, Dr. Gault and Lucy Gray. Not gonna go into those, since the video did but it is an interresting contrast.
I also appreciated that Snow recognized the kindness and selflessness in Sejanus, Ma Plinth, and Tigris but could only replicate those actions after he saw an example. He was after the comfort of his childhood. Being kind in a totalitarian society is NOT comfortable. He sought the well paved road to relatively easy glory as the next dictator. Even though he was well equipped to lead a revolution with Lucy Gray and the heir of a munitions giant at his side and could have had longer lasting glory as a savior for the districts.
i'm so glad i'm not the only one that thinks this. If Sejanus thought well and stopped trying to escape his wealth and embraced the responsibility that came with it, he could of changed everything. Coryo only turned him in cause he thought his idea was stupid and he didn't want to be killed with him. But if Sejanus offered him financial support for his family while they planned their revolution, i think he would've accepted. He believed he was madly in love with Lucy Gray (a district girl) and in the begining he also didn't seem fond of the games, he just help the games cause he wanted the Plinth prize. They had a great strategist who wants to be a leader, a simbol for the revolution that is also good with the public, a really kind hearted and powerful man to keep the motives as clean as they could be. They could've ended the games so soon and got the power, keeping their true motives undercover or actually making a revolution. They had everything. But reading this book was seeing a butterfly effect take place, one bad thing leading the other. If the dean just let Coryo win the Plinth prize maybe he could just go with his life and the games would die on their on.
@@thalitachristine1218That boy would not have accepted, what the heck makes you think that when he couldn’t view Lucy Gray and Sejanus as whole human beings? He was at the start, a classist, bigoted asshole and remained one until the end. Not to mention he kept justifying it to himself that LG wasn’t really “district” so he could allow himself to not feel guilty about being infatuated with her. I’d say the chances of him changing would be a long shot, he bought into Gaul’s mentality even though he saw proof in front of his face that her mentality (one he adopts) is wrong. He just chose to believe it anyway. That boy would need a lot of work to even begin thinking making the Panem better for the districts would be a good idea Also, the possibility of the games ending died thanks to the 10th, something Snow helped with
@@thalitachristine1218god this movie had me so torn..what a beautiful movie. The whole franchise is beautiful. I love all the interpretations of everybody in this comment section.
This book and movie seems like a good lesson on how to spot toxic\socio arc men. There were several lines that Corio uttered that made me feel cold inside because they were verbatim lines my abusive ex had told me. Na example: yelling out at Lucy "are you trying to kill me? AFTER EVERYTHING I'VE DONE FOR YOU!".... As if acts of kindness are only a medium of exchange and not demonstrations of love.
He also felt no remorse after killing, and continued on spending his time w Lucy Grey after betraying his own friend, he was the one who recorded his friend knowing his friend would get killed for it.
I love your analysis. Here's what I think: Grandma'am did a lot. Thanks to her, the remaining Snow has lima beans to survive during the dark days. She placed huge expectations on Snow to restore Snow's family glory; her voice is probably why he favors power over compassions/goodness. Her warning Snow about district children is her imparting wisdom, though to us normal people it sounds classist. Dr. Gual groomed Snow. To say she influenced him is an understatement. Snow is an entitled character but not evil at the beginning of the story. He was an orphan with nothing to his name, and Dr. Gual targeted him. If his family riches are still available, would he still overstep and cheat the game to ensure his candidate wins? Maybe he'll do it for fame, or maybe he won't be so obsessed with winning, we'll never know. If his father is still alive and influential, would Gual throw him in the arena? would Gual target him? No. I think Snow, with the situation he's thrown at, has no choice but to be a monster to survive. He tried to do the right thing (study hard, get a ticket to university, restore his family name) but doing the right thing would not guarantee him success and in his case failure is unacceptable because he has no cushion to rely on (unlike Sejanus who has his family riches). To add to your point about Snow's discovery of Tigris's possible involvement in sex work to help the family survive, Snow instead of having compassion prostitutes tributes like Finnick later on in the series shows his complete transformation to be truly evil.
Minor nitpick: it’s not sex work when it’s a minor. It’s prostitution of a minor. Sex work is an employment choice. When it’s a minor there is no choice.
After watching this, my mind went imediatly to one of the last scenes when Coriolanus asks Tigris How he looks and she says that he looks like like his father, but the way she says it (kudos to Hunter for so much depth in a simple scene) it's like she realized all her effort in raising the both of them was not enough. It's a sad, dissppointed expression with maybe a glimpse of fear too? Also, when Coriolanus Tells her of what happened when he had to do in the arena after he went there to "save" sejanus, we can see (or maybe that's Just me impressed by this video) how she's so desperate to keep a Sense of humanity and kindness in him. By the way, this analysis was SO brilliantly argumented and crafted, I'm glad you took time and a lot of work to post this!
Volumnia Gaul is 100% intended to be a mother figure to Snow based on her name, so this is a really great point on your part. In Shakespeare’s Coriolanus, the eponymous main character’s mother is named Volumnia, and she is the one that pushes for his political career.
These ladies are foils of eachother. To give an example: Grandmam Tigris Both represent survival (remember Grandmam choose the beans early in the dark days and Tigris saves him by mending his clothes). Coriolanus dislikes Tigris' help because it is an uncomfortable reminder of them having nothing. She makes beautiful clothes, that lose their lustre in the presence of others. Whereas his grandmam still has this reputation of actually growing beauty (the roses which Snow will wear throughout his life).
One thing that stuck out to me in this video that I haven’t seen otherwise is your interpretation of why Snow hates the mockingjays. That they’re out of order and an abomination, that makes so much sense and I loved that insight!
As soon as I finished the book I wanted to write a thousand essays analyzing everything about it so I'm glad I'm not the only one with a lot of thoughts 😅
I really like how you brought attention to snow loosing his mother’s things throughout the book also representing him loosing that side of himself. I never picked up on that
I think Dr Gaul remembered when Casca and Crassus were supposed to be working together and came up with the Hunger Games. I don't think she was trying to save Clemensia or anything, but she immediately realized that history was going to repeat itself and stopped it. Isolating her protege from yet another woman he might respect -and poisoning Clemensia. love this channel, love your analysis.
Ppl often overlook the idea that I love, the last thing Lucy did was go to pick Katniss- the action that ultimately put him on the path to destruction , and when Katniss arrives she actually destroys him
Coriolanus says he killed his old self to flee with Lucy but he actually killed his old self by not aligning his values with her. The self that was attracted to her never tried to understand and truly love her. It's a pretty typical fate for many infatuations but his affection or attachment for her was more about survival than love. The instinct to protect and help her to escape was there but it didn't run deep enough and ended when she escapes and he starts worrying more about his own safety. There was never any real trust between them. In a matter of minutes of escaping together, he starts caring more for his own self preservation and his instinct to "protect" Lucy disappears into thin air and so does Lucy.
I think it's a cop out to call him a sociopath or a narcissist. It otherizes him and allows us to ignore the shadow in ourselves. Dr. Gaul is a sadist and probably a psychopath, but anyone of us, sociopath or not, could go down a similar path as Snow.
So reading it I got hard-core npd vibes from him. The need to not be ordinary, the way people are objects to use or be possessed then discarded when they don’t meet expectations, the way he increasingly lacks remorse, the ease of lying. I had to think Collins was intentionally including these known traits of narcissism.
@@stephaniel1354 it's a fine perspective to have on this specifc character but I disagree someone needs to be different or have a personality disorder to use others in this way. You can be a total empath, but also know how to shove your empathy down in order to achieve your means. On the flip-side, there are truly Machiavellian people in our world who have also been incredibly compassionate. Gandhi, King Jr., and JFK are a few who come to mind.
@@stephaniel1354I agree & would add she also includes the very real progression people take in the unraveling if NPD. It’s said that NPD begins with a significant childhood trauma in which the future narcissist is abandoned. It is glaringly obvious that this is the case for Snow in the books, due to his parents death. I have also heard that narcissistic parents either breed narcissistic children or empaths & there are no in between. I’m assuming the grandma am was his father’s mother by his fathers description in the book & the traits of a distorted view of reality are also shown in her. It’s also evident just how far removed Tigris is from this - I’m assuming she had the empath/scapegoat of the family as her parent OR came from Snow’s mothers side which seemed much more empathetic.
In almost a cartoonish way, the movie sets up this ongoing theme of Katniss constantly being a painful reminder of Lucy Gray. They're both defiant, outspoken women from District 12. A Covee girl digs up "swamp potato," which Lucy Gray calls "katniss." Lucy also gives the excuse that she's going to dig up katniss when she runs away. Lucy and Katniss both sing to help themselves through the games/rebellion. Finally, Katniss sings the song Lucy wrote - "the Hanging Tree," which comes to represent Snow's time in District 12. Katniss becomes a sentimental thorn in Snow's side. Even having the mockingjay as Katniss's symbol reminds him of a girl who knew he couldn't be trusted.
Right. It's so eerie imagining Snow's perspective. I always rewatch the moment in the movies when he sees her coming in on the chariot for the first time. Donald Sutherland did such a good job of making the perfect expression during that moment. It's got to be weird having the last thing Lucy said to him being about going to get Katniss and then when he's super old seeing the Katniss come from District 12. If I were him it would feel like Lucy Gray sending me a gift in the mail, just had to wait 60 something years delivery time. A "gift" that's on FIRE no less lol
I do not think he loved her for that his inner voice is way to mean about her, he was attracted to her and missread that as romantic affection. He wante her, he was posessiv of her, he liked the idea of loving her . . . she sings a song about him and he is awed cause that flattered his ego, she sings the ballade she was named after moments later and he is disnterested, finds it silly and nothing of the awe or adoration is left cause it was never genuine. the slightest doubt was enough to make him willing to kill her!
He obsessed over her but also he had in some moments a real care about her (when she get injured during the bomb attack and he concerned about she get properly healed, when she speak about keeping rats away in the monkey house, or when he send her to sing to have her alibi after the murder).
I think snow had the capacity for love. It seems clear that he did in fact have very real feelings for others. But when it came down to it, his view of himself prevented him from ever expressing it meaningfully. In the end he is just too selfish and arrogant to ever put anyone else before him. In the movie it's very clear just how special he thinks he is and how much he thinks he *deserves* from others. As soon as you get in his way he will betray you, only to blame the victim and justify it in his mind as them having wronged him. He has a massive savior complex, which is his fatal flaw.
@@Zivanovaablefor me it’s the moments when in the book he unconsciously shows her the same level of care as his family members; parroting facts about nutrition as he offers food bc that’s how someone comforted him (that’s literally the golden rule, empathy). He tries to explain it away but it’s there
You did a great job in analysing Snow’s mother figures. As much as I dislike psychoanalysis as a paradigm of study I can’t help but feel that your dissection of Mrs Snow, Grandmaam and Dr Gaul neatly fit the Freudian definition of the superego, the ego and the id: Mrs Snow - the superego that acts as a self-critical conscience, the moral component of the psyche Grandmaam - the ego acting as the mediation between the id and the superego, the self that one wants to project outwardly towards others Dr Gaul - the id that contains all the primitive urges and impulses (eg. Her view of humans being in a natural state of chaos without government, who will murder each other for self-preservation) And as Coriolanus suppresses his superego (Mrs Snow), he gives in to the influences of the id (Dr Gaul), eventually shaping him into the psychopath we know in Katniss’ time
This was such a good video!! I loved the analysis of Mrs. Snow. It really got me thinking of Strabo Plinth’s conversation with Coriolanus when he asked him “are you like your mother or your father” and how Coriolanus missed the point so deeply by saying he liked music like his mother. That was Strabo’s subtle way of asking “will you treat district people like me with respect.”
You know the usual thing where a character talks about future plans just to die in the next scene, right? It makes you think about all the could haves. Lucy and Tigris show paths Snow could have taken. Already knowing what did happen made the experience delightfully painful.
Nice job with this analysis! I think you picked a great thread to examine, I hadn't really thought about how all the most influential figures in Snow's life (who are actually present in the story) are women. I agree about his connection to his mother being ultimately pretty thin, though I think he also probably took a formative lesson from her death; we see that he has disdain for things he perceives as weak and, consciously or unconsciously, probably thinks about his mother's softness and warmth as an example of how not to be because she wasn't able to 'make it.' For me with characters from books and/or movies I feel like psychological analysis can only get you so far because at the end of the day they aren't a full being, they only exist so far as they've been conjured by the author... in addition to the psychological angle I think it's also revealing to look at Suzanne Collins' literary and historical influences, because a lot of times she's drawing pretty direct parallels. (And I don't mean this as a critique of your video, just wanting to share additional places to look for insight.) For example, in Shakespeare's play "Coriolanus," his mother, Volumnia, has some striking similarities to Dr. Volumnia Gaul in TBOSAS, so I'd say you're definitely onto something about Gaul being another mother figure. In the play Volumnia has a passage where she talks about sending Coriolanus off to war at a young age, in order to have him win honor and acclaim as a soldier - which is basically what Dr. Gaul does when she sends Corio into the arena and off to District 12.
I think the balance of men and women that Coriolanus spends his time with is interesting. He says he is close with some of his male classmates, but we see him interact with Arachne and Clemensia the most. The only men he interacts with meaningfully are Sejanus and Highbottom. Meanwhile, he is shaped by not only the women you focus on in the video, but also Ma, Maude Ivory, Mayfair, and (somewhat) the female scientist who worked with the jabberjays. He expects to have some connection with Mr. Plinth because he feels like he is better than him but actually forms a relationship with Ma.
This is such a good analysis! It makes me think - Snow tells Katniss throughout the books that she's like him, and they understand each other, which I think is part of why Katniss comes to see herself as selfish and untrustworthy. You say that he can't control what he doesn't understand. I wonder if he saw some parts of himself in Katniss (perhaps things that weren't even there in her, just like he projects his terrible qualities onto everyone else) and hoped he could control her by convincing her she was like him, so that she would behave predictably. He disregarded all the evidence that Katniss was drastically different from him and instead focused on what he could understand about her, trying to encourage those parts of her, trying to mutate her into another version of himself, the way Dr Gaul did with him. Very thought provoking analysis, thank you!
This may sound very strange, but considering what I’ve read about Napoleon’s life, it seems like snow echoes some of his behaviors. For instant, they both grew up in a relatively aristocratic family but they were unknown, they were known for having complicated relationships with women, like how both Napoleon and Snow are seemingly obsessed with women like Lucy and Josephine. They both left them to be in a loveless marriage with different women for political reasons.
great analysis!! Thank you very much for the work you've done/gen unfortunately, despite loving it, there is a statement i don't especially agree with, and it's about people being naturally kind, or givers, because most of the people who do good are usually motivated either by " no one is going to do it besides me", "i just gotta" or by " i've seen too much hurt to cause it myself " and it normally comes not naturally, but from the way and conditions they were raised in, their sensibility and believes they inherited. There might be someone who is kind because of being born this way, but i genuinely can't think of anything similar to such a case.
It should also be noted that Coriolanus Snow is named after the Shakespeare play, Coriolanus. Which sees the eponymous character become a dictator descending into tyranny, bloodshed and finally his removal from power. In the play, Coriolanus’ mother, Volumnia, is emotionally manipulative-having a profound effect on his psyche. Instead of offering parental nourishment, Volumnia coaxes her son to further aggression. She takes credit for turning him into the deadliest warrior and for toughening him up. This exactly mirrors Coriolanus Snow’s relationship with Dr. Volumnia Gaul as she bares some responsibility for encouraging the killer in him.
I personally wonder how much Coriolanus would have been different if his mother survived childbirth. Not only would he have a little sister who could’ve positively impacted him, and his mother living longer could’ve made a difference. Had she lived even to around the time of the 10th hunger games or even just lasted past the war, I wonder if his Mother’s influence would’ve made him a better person and set him up to be more comfortable with giving and comfortable with the spirit of freedom that Lucy Gray represented.
it's interesting how in the epilogue when the Plith adopts the Snow, Coriolanus calls Mrs. Plith as "Ma" while he stills calls Mr. Plith as "Sir", Coriolanus finally leaves behind the image of his own mother and replacing it of someone who thinks and believes in the capitol, who betrayed their own district for it, but still leaving in his memory the image of his father, because no one could ever replace the grand general who fought and die for capitol
I will forever show this video and other analysis videos to people whenever someone tells me "The Hunger Games series isn't that deep". It is. It can be if YOU look deeper. Collins was very clever imo and you can tell she thought every character and plot point through before she even began writing the story.
I'm binge-watching all of your Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes videos and i love them! I just had a thought: Other videos have speculated that Snow knew Katniss wasn't really in love with Peeta in the beginning of Catching Fire because Snow was once in love with Lucy Gray and knows what love is really like. I think it's the opposite: Snow knows that Katniss is using Peeta's love to survive and he fully recognizes this because that's how he also saw Lucy Gray.
I feel like he could have believed that in retrospect as an old man, but I think he mostly saw that Katniss was playing the game and manipulating people the way he had encouraged mentors to teach their tributes to for presumably years - to make people watch.
one detail i really liked about the movie is the opening scene. Snow and his cousin witness a man commit cannibalism and are attacked by dogs in a very war-torn capital, no doubt traumatizing for a child. When he gets home, he hopes with all his might that maybe there will be some comfort from his father. But Grandmam, the only adult woman in his life, reveals to him after all this turmoil that his father is dead and says that he (a literal child) is the "man" of his house now. I like to think inadvertently, this line from grandmam forever changed the way snow would view his role in the world. Hence why he justifies most of his cruelty and actions via his station as "one of the last snows" or for the betterment of his family.
Gaul orchestrates a lot of events in his life too.She sends him into the arena. She must give the compact to Highbottom, much like she manipulates the arena. And the talk of her as a mother figure made me think... are we certain Mrs. Snow died a NATURAL death in childbirth? Because... who was her OB? It seems suspect that the Capitol, with all its medicine couldn't save her (though not impossible, obviously).
I LOVED this video / analysis ! Tigris is one of the most tragic parts to me, that she put herself through so much to care for Snow/her family and he still cast her aside and did not value her work or opinion in the end.
Oh wow, I legitimately just finished bingeing all your content on Ballad of songbirds and snakes about and hour or so ago mind you I JUST found your channel 😭 then you drop this that’s WILD
Good analysis. As much as I agree Dr. Gaull was a maternal figure to Snow I also think she was a paternal figure as well. We never met Snow's father but I imagine he was similar to how he raised Snow to the way Dr. Gaull interacts with Snow. He regretted not being able to prove his worth to his father so he was eager to prove his worth to Dr. Gaull. Also as cold as both Dr. Gaull was, and I imagine Snow's father to be it would have been familiar and comforting.
Knowing how much he likes control and his possessive inner monologue, I think had she not ran that he would have just tried to possess her and take away her freedom so she would belong to him forever.
There is so much symbolism in the Hunger Games books that kinda went over my head as a teen. Now, reading TBOSAS, which is equally as rich and strong and complex as the trilogy let me to do a deep dive into these books again and really, I just appreciate Suzanne Collins so so much. And then your video plopped up and it seemed interesting cause it views Snow through a lense I hadn't considered before. I always saw Snow, and all the Capitol kids really, as being "songbirds", used and molded to fit the Capitol's agenda to ensure its survival by instilling their violent thinking patterns and dehumanizing the district people. The kids carry them with them, unleashing them on others. Snow was just one of many manipulated children of the Capitol. While that is not the whole reason he turns out who he is in the end you wonderfully point out the women who shape him on his journey! Snow being just another mutt to Dr. Gaul? Such a good point! He is just another experiment to her, and when that is disrupted (by Clemmie meddling with it) she gets angry for potentially screwing up the result aka Snows development. Coriolanus mother's presence is so elusive in the books too, even to Coriolanus himself. I think it shows how empathy and kindness were always so feeble concepts to grasp for him. He not only had his father's characteristics in appearance but also in character. And while he wishes to be more like his mother he never makes an actual effort to behave differently. And ofc someone like Dr. Gaul latches onto those already existing qualities.. I really love your analysis and connections you point out! I'll definitely check out more of you videos. And I loved the line along of "I don't like to listen to women's characterisation by men". That is so powerful! And it got me thinking.. mens thoughts on women are probably often warped by common biased lenses when they didn't do the work to crack open these biases yet. That thought definitely will stay with me when I encounter certain kinds of comments or stories by men about women in the future.❤ Edit: oh and I almost forgot: I love that you point out that Katniss, someone who is everything Snow isn't ends up being his downfall. Empathy and compassion, humanity triumph over cruelty, dehumanisation, need for control
After reading the book I also agree I don’t think he truly loved her for what love really is. In the movie (which I saw first) I leaned more towards he did love her. After he found the guns in the book he already decided he wanted to go back to the capital. He wanted to leave her first. (I think from her POV she also wanted to leave, and they decided alone, at the same time.) that’s why he made up all the excuses that he could that she was a traitor so he could betray her and leave her in the wilderness, then knowing she knows he’s a murderer he knew he couldn’t leave her alive in case she came back to say something so, he decided in his head all of a sudden she was a horrible person to make the choice of killing her seem just.
this is a masterpiece of video. my goodness. i love your thoughts on this book as a person who also has been obsessed with this book recently, especially after watching the movie, and you just fully blossomed a small idea i had in my mind that i thought i was maybe over analyzing.
i absolutely adore the hunger games for portraying every female characters as a person first and foremost. my biggest issue with art is the tendency to other women as just that. "women characters", instead of characters that are women. you cannot grasp the complexities of their existence in the story if their role in it is to be a woman. suzanne collins has masterfully written each and every character in the hunger games, and each play a particular role in the narrative. victors, tributes, capitols, revolutionaries, all with distinct character traits and individualism. gender is another aspect to these characters that impacts how they approach the world, not determining the role they fulfill. in the ballad of songbirds and snakes, it is quite refreshing to see meaningfully impactful female characters, who have influenced the story so greatly. wonderful work.
Dr gaul was my favorite character in both the movie and book; she's crazy yea, but brilliant, and ultimately the Creator of the capital as we first see it in the hunger games
I'm so sorry it's completely unrelated but I always cackled every time I hear about grandmothers general stereotypes, which is, kind, gentle, wise, warm etc. When my own grandma is just this loveless and vicious narcissistic manipulator with words like poisson and split tongue :v great video btw, I really love this discourse. I noticed a little about his relationship with women when I read the books, especially when the tBoSaS book came out, but I can't really put it into words but you explained so well and perfectly 👏🏾
Saaaame! My grandma on my dad's side would say the most racist, mean-spirited and vile stuff but then act offended if you ever questioned her or called her BS out (I mean n-word with hard R, accuse my Albanian friend of trying to poison me with 'foreigner food', etc). According to her money could solve all issues and families keep together no matter what (even with a predator cousin and thief aunt). Now that you said it I see my grandma in the grandma'am, that explains why I felt so uncomfortable with that character
@@caesar98 wtf jisus chirst why are they like that when I was a little I always wonder why people are so excited to go to their grandparents house, whereas I just absolutely hate to go there as I grow older I know the reasons
@@catleaxmas5416 I guess they had hardships in their lifes and use it as excuses to behave poorly. I moved away as soon as I could because it was just such a toxic environment. I remember every birthday being asked "well what will become of you?" with such a condescending tone. I was so happy when I moved for uni and could just be away from the toxicity
@@caesar98 i couldn't emphasis more on how similar our experiences with my own grandma. Even though, I have a job and she still thinks that I am unemployed and never have my own money. I am glad you got out, I hope the best for you in life
Great video and amazing analysis! though I do think people put too much of Snow's outcome on Doctor Gaul; he already embodied a lot of her ideology, i think she saw that in him. He had the potential to continue his legacy and did, but she was not the sole reason for his being.
Beautiful done, thank you so much for sharing! It seems to me that works like these are so great because you get to work on your own person, and people don't always see how important it is. Have a nice day/night ❤
This may be a reach but I feel like it could represent how a mother's legacy and identity is defined by her children. It doesn't matter what her name is, what she has accomplished. If her children are good, then she is good (even if she has been a bad mother), and if her children are bad, then she is bad (even if she tried her absolute best). Also how many times have you heard a mother be referred to as XYZ's Mom, instead of her name? The legacy and identity of the mother is her children, her name does not matter anymore
I haven’t watched the video yet but hope this comes up because it’s something i noticed in the books. Snow is CONSTANTLY looks down at sex work performed by women. when he considers tigress might have been forced to turn to prostitution he first evaluated how much she would be worth (gross) and then instead of feeling empathy and gratefulness he shames her. He does the same for Lucy Gray later. I think this really just shows his possessiveness and how he wants the women in his life to be only his and not “owned” or USED by any other man
Considering the tributes were often made into sex slaves, both men and women, I think he really doesn't care about prostitution. He only has distain for it when it concerns women in his personal life.
I think it’s less that he minds sex work in general and more that he thinks it’s for poor people (mentions when considering whether Tigris had done it that the Snows hadn’t fallen far enough) and he just dislikes the idea of any man being with a woman he desires. He’s actually more pissed at the idea of Lucy Gray having a previous lover than having done sex work.
If anything I think that's more evidence he sees it as depraved and humiliating, he uses forced sex work as a way to punish the district kids who had the audacity to win @@TimberlakeTigerGirl
Very well spoken, thought out analysis! 100% agree with everything you said here and it only makes me wonder what women were in his life in between now and the 74th games. We know he has a granddaughter, so he must’ve been married at some point, but we never see a significant other in the books or the movies for him, nor do we see any children. Did he have them killed or were there other misfortunes in his life that further shaped and developed his psyche? 4 books just aren’t enough for this universe 😭
As far as I know, in regards to his wife, it wasn't a marriage of love. Snow only loved Lucy and once she disappeared he never loved another woman. He only married a wealthy Capital woman to produce an heir but their marriage was 'civil at best'. I think his wife passed away a few years before the 74th games. And we briefly see Snow's son, daughter in law and two granddaughters in Mockingjay part 1 during Snows speech.
I loooved your analysis ❤ i could add that Coriolanus seeks control and power to that extent because he hates feeling vulnerable, therefore, he's incapable of true love
thought this video was gonna have like 100k views but it only has about 2k! This is such an interesting analysis, brb im gonna reread the book again haha
this was incredibly fascinating, thank you for putting this together! wow! and thank you for emphasizing that Snow did NOT love Lucy Gray. not truly. it was a facade or an escape. the movie i feel makes you think she betrayed him when truly Lucy Gray was finally seeing his heart, he was not trustworthy, and she needed to escape.
It's worth pointing out that snow grew up in a home with minimal amount of love, Tigris was the only person who showed some sort of love towards him. His grandmother constantly talked to him about upholding fhe family name and honor and how Snow was compared to his father. In that sense you could argue that Snow had very little understanding of love towards others so his ideas of what love was,or how it manifested itself was a new concept to him. Snow also had no father figure,so its easy to see how he turned out,in contrast to say Katniss who grew up in a home with love and affection and with both parents there. I do believe that snow was honestly in love with Lucy gray, at least love as he saw it in his mind. Yes he said that she was his but thats no different than a boyfriend saying that his girlfriend is well his or how a husband says "my wife" or vice versa "my husband." Snow cared only for himself to an extent yes but once again except tigris no one really cared about him, Lucy gray pretended to care for him just to use him to get back at the mayors daughter and for her own survival, Gaul used him to keep the games alive and keep her legacy alive and his own grandmother was only interested in the prestige and honor of the family which was put on Snow's shoulders. "Its the things we love the most that destroys us." Well what did destroy him if not his love for Gray and for those close around him, he wasnt lying when he said that he had killed his old self. Snow realized quickly that the world he wanted to create or preserve was the same world those around him wanted to destroy.
katniss didn’t grow up with love and both parents there. Katniss had to assume a parent role, just like snow. Katniss is a direct parellel to show that Snow, has choices.
I hadn't put it together that everyone important that we know about in Snow's life, other than, briefly, Sejanus and Highbottom, is a woman. Growing up it was his family, Gaul, and Lucy Gray; in the end it was Coin and Katniss. We never get much insight into whether he consciously values women differently than men, but it is fascinating that he absorbs so much from the women he was raised around, but casts them aside so easily once he decides he needs control. I do also think it's important that we acknowledge characters aren't people. A character is just a collection of ideas and themes that a real person wanted to talk about
This is the first time I’m on your channel and I wanna say that I think your video essay was beautifully done and it makes me wanna see the movie and read the book!
Wonderful analysis! I think maybe the usage of "Mrs." with the more distant mother-like figures representing morality is very intentional in showing his connection to them. A sort of wish to be close and acknowledgment that they had an impact, but an inability to really connect with those figures in one way or another which ultimately influenced how he connected with the other women in his life.
I think Snow could understand doing things for people he loved in the beginning. He wanted to win the money for his family to have a better life with them originally, but once he was thrown into everything and District 12. He was scared, desperate, and manipulated. Then he took a way worse path. All people react to trauma differently. He reacted in a way that made him hateful, vengeful, and controlling. He wanted power over others. Others react in a way where they show kindness, compassion, equality, openness, understanding, and love for others. Everyone reacts differently to trauma. You’re not born bad. You choose to be based on your life experiences, people around you, and mindset towards life.
This is a great analysis. My only note is to be careful about making the "dark triad" some sort of mystical thing of monsters. People with ASPD and NPD deserve respect and compassion. I'm not saying Snow might not have had these diagnoses-- I'm not a psychological professional-- but I would just gently recommend being more careful in the future!
Just stumped across your channel and your content is right up my alley. You’ve secured a new subscriber! Keep up the good work. I’m excited to witness the growth of your channel.
I know that panem is based off Roman society or as a cheap reflection of it. And I remember for somewhere that sons got passed down names and got long names where daughters got a single simple name and some shared their name with their sisters or mother, that could explain why they are just Mrs.Snow and Mrs. Plith and ehy snows father has a longer name.
Classicist here, there wasn't much difference in how Romans named their sons vs their daughters. Children were frequently named for their birth order (names like Primus and Octavia) or for their parents (Julius Caesar named his beloved daughter Julia)
This is very interesting. I do wonder if Snow is a natural sociopath, or someone who kind of self-created himself to be one by adopting what he had decided was the "right" way to be--you can't get anywhere by being nice. The order and control I think are native to him, but that's not inherently bad. But his reaction to people who challenge that--Haymitch, Katniss, and especially Peeta--his response to it is so strong that it feels less like, "This is a threat to my power" than "This is a threat to the deepest beliefs I hold about how people are." It's personal, which suggests to me that it's less his inherent personality than a belief system he adopted so early that threats to it--things that prove not everyone is just out for himself, that not everyone around him is cheating and lying, making it obvious that he needs to do the same--are serious personal threats, threats to his very identity. I'd blame the grandmother, but let's be honest--she lost at least two children, her entire family fortune, and her way of life, and I think by the time we meet her, she is not at all stable. She's grasped on to her status as the only thing that matters, and passed that on to her bright grandson, filling his head with expectations of what he would have to be to fulfill her dreams. That's a pretty toxic brew on its own, then combined with his apparently innate need for order, Highbottom's repeated humiliations (of a kid who--whatever he would do later--was still _a kid_ at at the time), then Gaul's reinforcing of his growing belief in how horrible people are... it builds into a fairly tragic destruction of himself as much as everyone else. (On my last re-read, I noticed the personality and physical changes in Clemmie after the mutt attack, and had a fairly horrible idea that maybe Tigris hadn't actually altered her appearance by choice. A mutt attack seems likely. Either Coriolanus ordered it, or it was the cause of his deep embarrassment about her.)
His actions being explained by in-born mental illness would ruin his character. He is the perfect creation of the Capitol, exactly the person they seek to make.
Also he felt he wouldn't live in a forest as a hermit and wasn't learned skills for that (unlike Lucy and the Covey who were nomadic tribe and had it ).
Hey everyone, two things I made a mistake, around 17:44 and said his sister, I meant his cousin lol my bad😭
And number two, it’s recently come to my attention that I tend to pronounce words like unfortunately like unfortunateckly? And it wasn’t untill this video did I notice that LOL💀
I have multiple accents and different enunciations, I use my American accent when making videos but I still mix words together sometimes: specifically with definitely & unfortunately hihi, I’ll definitely be aware of that! But if it comes out of me naturally, it is what it is😎🫶🏽
Thank you all sm, and I’ll be working a new analysis soon ❤
I like how your voice sounds :) thank you for making the video
Don't worry. You did really good and you have a beautiful voice. Thanks for the video 🧡
And a cousin is a sister once removed, is it not?
Plus with how close they were growing up, I'd argue Tigris was more his sister anyway
It’s okay, I think they were more like siblings to each other than cousins, anyways.
Rachel Zegler said “Lucy gray is a performer who had to fight, and katniss is a fighter who had to perform.” That’s a great way to describe them.
It's too bad she's a cyberbully (if what I hear is true), because she is a great actress and singer. It's been a while since I saw a good female lead in today's mainstream midia.
@JabamiLain What have you heard exactly? I've tried looking around for it and I've seen nothing about that.
🤯🤯
@@JabamiLaincyber bully? That’s new
@@hanmirawasn't it her who was being accused of cyberbullying ?
The fact that Tigris basically raised him even tho she was his age and he h still throw her away like she was nothing
THAT fucked me up
he will throw everyone to the garbage if they're not benefit to him anymore
Dr Gaul enabled him to become who President Snow. She him the immunity in the Hunger Games and overlook all his cheating. Any other women he is close to except his Grandma was not removed fr his life. He was allowed to keep the rose and always wear the ros(his mother passed away so no longer a threat).
i like to think that he associated his status with his family. As tigris showed more empathy to the districts, she couldve been a constant nagging reminder of the innocent child he used to be. Thus, he probably thought she wasnt a true Snow.
She was older than him. The book makes it clear.
this might be a stretch but that scene in the book talking abt his mothers eyes and how badly he wanted more traits of hers to me seemed almost like a foreshadowing that he was destined to see the world through his fathers eyes therefore taking actions like his father and the ideas bred into him by grandma’am like “when your president… you like your father…” etc almost makes him believe that being like his father and having power is the only way to survive
Exactly!
and tigris also says she only saw hatred on his father's eyes, so if he has his father's, that means he's also full of hatred. being kind was never an option for him.
the part at the end when his mother's powder that always smelt like her were ruined but snow's fathers compass remained intact really mirrored how he went from being very close to his mother in the beginning of the book to being very alike his father and now seeing him as a role model
@@ritika9958 i never thought about that omg
@@ritika9958 Yeah, near the end of the book he throws away everything associated with his mother while keeping his father's compass. Not metaphorically, he throws out the powder and the family photos.
Dr Gaul is definitely meant to be seen as a mother figure to snow. Her name is proof. Coriolanus is named after the general in the Shakespeare play about a very successful general with a distain for plebians. His mother in the play, who shapes his evilness, is named Volumnia. VOLUNMIA GAUL IS NAMED AFTER HER. Suzanne absolutely meant her to be his "mother". She was also an OBSTETRICIAN, someone who helps deliver babies and looks after them, before she worked in military strategy. Her whole character is based around motherhood.
Also such an amazing point that Gaul could've seen punishing Clemmie as her way of protecting her "mutt", one of her "babies"
I didn’t know about the play. That’s fascinating
On the other hand,Tigris is named after one of the river give birth to human civilization.
Wow Suzanne is so well read and a genius!
This is like when I learned Darth Vader is the German translation to dark father. Like that kind of fascinating knowledge is something I kind of hyper focus on
@@222daleyunfortunately, it’s not. “Darth” doesn’t mean anything in German and father is vaTer not vaDer which is Dutch and pronounced differently. Dark is “dunkel” and “donker” respectively. Pretty sure George said himself that the name was just an accident..
Such a good point about Dr Gaul 'mutating' Coriolanus into the cruel person she wants him to be. Amazing analysis!
he always had the potential and it where his choices, but she definitly helped it along quite a lot.
@@SingingSealRianaat 13:21 what does she mean by that? I think I would put a blame on them but not just them his father too.
@@SingingSealRiana She straight up groomed him.
I also agree that Snow never loved Lucy. It was obsession. Throughout the book he (in a very possessive way) refers to Lucy Gray as "his". He doesn't even want her to have a life outside of him, and he couldn't care less about the songs she sings UNLESS it is about him. And just like with possessions, once he's done with her...he throws her away. In tbosas book this is all made much more clear. I guess the argument could be made that he loved her to the best of his ability..but even then I still think it was more obsession than anything.
So true!!
Snow loved Lucy Grey, which is shown by the fact he was willing to run away with her and leave his family and the capital behind, because if he really didn't love her, he wouldn't have run away with her and left his family and the capital behind, and I think if Lucy Grey stayed with us now, he wouldn't have turned out as evil as he did in the Hunger Games. It's also worth noting that a lot of the awful things he does in the Ballad of Song Birds and Snakes movie are not purely selfish because, before he portrayed Sejanus, he found out from Tigers that they lost the Snow family house, which obviously made him worried and more determined to get back to the capital. So the reason he portrayed Sejanus was because he was from Snow's perspective, engaging in rebel activity, and if he got caught, would be executed as well for knowing him, meaning he would never be able to go back to Tigris and Grandma'am like he promised. So the reason he portrayed Sejanus was so he could go back to the capital and help his family. I also get the impression that's part of the reason he turns on Lucy Grey because she had all the evidence to turn him in and get him executed, which would prevent him from going back to his family, and by that point, he didn't trust her, and in his paranoia, he thought she was going to rat him out to the peacekeepers.
@@matthewbeniamin4834In the book it becomes quite clear, that he runs away to save his ass. The fact that he runs away together with Lucy Gray is more of an ‘extra’ that he interprets as love. Once they are in the woods, he almost despises the idea of being a nobody somewhere in the unknown. Which sums up Lucy Grays deepest desires. Even if he loved him, he loved her for her looks, her charm, the success and the victory she brought him. He never loved her idea of life, her morals, her mind, song texts etc. At one point in the book where he is ‘trapped’ at work in the military base and she is free, he wishes back the time, where she was trapped in the capitol and he was free.
suzanne collins did say multiple times he did come to love her, yall act like you know more than the author. i genuinely think he did love her, just that he was always willing to choose himself and power over anything, even the people that he cared, which makes it more evil in my opinion.
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Something I kept wondering while reading the book was whether Lucy even had any feelings for Coriolanus, for all there's quite a lot of focus on if Coriolanus was really in love with her or just the idea of her or even just the idea of love, there's so little discussion as to whether Lucy loved him. Especially as what we know about her personality, backstory and relationships with others is told through Coriolanus' gaze. I always felt like she was just pretending to love him in order to survive the games and then have an easier time of it back in District 12. But it made me wonder if Snow subconsciously picked up on that and that was why he was so harsh towards Katniss too, when she was pretending to be in love with Peeta. Not just because of the charged political situation, but that innate feeling of hurt and betrayal was running underneath too.
I felt the same. He really is just self serving. I don’t think she loved him it felt like survival and a bit of Stockholm syndrome to an extent. more so I think he realized he was getting played when he heard her really paid attention to her singing. When Katnis does it and he can see right through it I think it bothers him more that no one else does more than feeling betrayed. That’s why he makes them go to extremes to make him believe as well. Idk very interesting thoughts that I will continue to think about 😂
I love this comment! I never thought of that connection between Katniss with Peeta and Lucy with Snow.
yes, I think so too. When I was reading the books, she seemed to only be interested in him if it serves her. Not that she wasn't kind to her own people,, but it is a little laced with hidden motives.
@Ch50304 Yeah, exactly. If anything I found it a bit odd that people thought their relationship was just a straight forward romance. I just felt she was playing him which given the symbolism of the games and musical instruments seems apt.
I don't see how that's up for debate at all as soon as you get to the third part of the book. Or even before - when she fought for the compact and then took all the blame for the poisonings and the cheating of rules on herself.
Once he gets to District 12 and she's overjoyed to see him and immediately shows her love for him, there's no debate. She had absolutely no reason to keep up any charade if any such charade ever existed. They were dating, she introduced him to her family, she wrote a beautiful love song for/about him, wrote another song asking him to run away with her, and ran away with him. What else do you need?
You did excellent job, one thing many people also noticed is at least physical similarities of Katniss and Peeta and Snow and Lucy as couples. It must have been nightmare to see them on screen even if he knew that at least Katniss pretended to love Peeta in first game. In his twisted mind he thinks Lucy betrayed him, he even said something like "At what point he (Peeta) become aware of your indifference"
It adds even more to his demand that Katniss convince him of her love for Peeta as well. I just can't decide who he was convinced Katniss was actually more like, Lucy Gray or himself, given his penchant for projection.
Totally! And if I remember correctly Snow even described Peeta as a “lovely boy” and we all know Peeta is probably just as smart as Snow was at that age. I think he saw himself in Peeta (even if it hat assessment was skewed) which makes him high jacking him and making Katniss seem life-threatening in all of his memories feel like a metaphor of how he’s dealt with his perceived betrayal from Lucy Gray throughout his life. He probably even thought he was doing Peeta a favor by letting him kill katniss, his own Lucy Gray. I think that if Peeta wasn’t an inherently empathetic and kind person he could have even ended up as Snow’s protégé! But ironically, even thought Peeta’s mother was the exact opposite of Snow’s, I think growing up in district 12 rather than the Capitol made him kind and empathetic of people in the districts, therefore ensuring that he would never become the next Snow.
YES I was just talking with a friend yesterday about that scene in catching fire when Snow comes to Katniss’ place talking about her and Peeta and how strangely invested he is in their relationship. He asks “at what point did he recognize the depth of your indifference towards him?” Later when she says she’ll convince the people that she and Peeta are in love he responds “No. Convince me.” Clearly this man saw Katniss as a representation of the evil woman who left him and betrayed him when he was Peeta’s age.
@@TheOtherBoobJustDropped That's funny because there's really at least as many if not more similarities between Snow and Katniss, and Peeta and Lucy Gray, and Lucy Gray was definitely more of the Peeta to Snow's Katniss. Katniss' mix of motivations during the Games can be compared to Snow's, and Dean Highbottom even calls him out on it in the movie, and accuses him of being a selfish user like his father in the book (in a confrontation that reminds me a bit of Snow's with Katniss).
Suzanne puts Snow in so many similar situations as Katniss, and both of them are introverted pragmatists bent on survival with a mostly distrusting and pessimistic nature (at least Katniss is in the beginning), but Snow is fundamentally selfish, while Katniss is fundamentally unselfish. Katniss always questions herself and feels guilty, whenever Snow feels guilt he quickly finds ways to justify himself. Katniss underestimated herself, Snow is incredibly narcissistic. Katniss opens herself up to people and proves that compassion and love can be a strength, while Snow closes himself off and becomes fully immersed in paranoia and hate.
Ooooh!
Okay snow losing his humanity as he gives the pieces he has left of his mother away!! Such a good point. I’m rereading the series now because of the movie and and the way Suzanne Collins deals with gender in the whole series is so interesting and this is such a great analysis.
I’m bout to reread the books too . I need the last one tho
True, we talked about that in one of my classes at college and when you think about it, Katniss is very much influenced by the men in her life. Her father, who taught her how to hunt, for years her closest bond with anyone outside her family is with Gale, later there is Cinna, who is responsible for her image as the girl on fire and even designed her Mockingjay get ups, Peeta, who is responsible for the whole star crossed lovers debactle (and boy did those have consequences!), Haymitch as their mentor also plays his part in making her the Mockingjay.
With Snow, most of the major influences on his life are the women he "cares" about, his mother, grandmother, Tigris, Dr. Gault and Lucy Gray. Not gonna go into those, since the video did but it is an interresting contrast.
I also appreciated that Snow recognized the kindness and selflessness in Sejanus, Ma Plinth, and Tigris but could only replicate those actions after he saw an example. He was after the comfort of his childhood. Being kind in a totalitarian society is NOT comfortable. He sought the well paved road to relatively easy glory as the next dictator. Even though he was well equipped to lead a revolution with Lucy Gray and the heir of a munitions giant at his side and could have had longer lasting glory as a savior for the districts.
i'm so glad i'm not the only one that thinks this. If Sejanus thought well and stopped trying to escape his wealth and embraced the responsibility that came with it, he could of changed everything. Coryo only turned him in cause he thought his idea was stupid and he didn't want to be killed with him. But if Sejanus offered him financial support for his family while they planned their revolution, i think he would've accepted. He believed he was madly in love with Lucy Gray (a district girl) and in the begining he also didn't seem fond of the games, he just help the games cause he wanted the Plinth prize. They had a great strategist who wants to be a leader, a simbol for the revolution that is also good with the public, a really kind hearted and powerful man to keep the motives as clean as they could be. They could've ended the games so soon and got the power, keeping their true motives undercover or actually making a revolution. They had everything. But reading this book was seeing a butterfly effect take place, one bad thing leading the other. If the dean just let Coryo win the Plinth prize maybe he could just go with his life and the games would die on their on.
@@thalitachristine1218That boy would not have accepted, what the heck makes you think that when he couldn’t view Lucy Gray and Sejanus as whole human beings? He was at the start, a classist, bigoted asshole and remained one until the end. Not to mention he kept justifying it to himself that LG wasn’t really “district” so he could allow himself to not feel guilty about being infatuated with her.
I’d say the chances of him changing would be a long shot, he bought into Gaul’s mentality even though he saw proof in front of his face that her mentality (one he adopts) is wrong. He just chose to believe it anyway. That boy would need a lot of work to even begin thinking making the Panem better for the districts would be a good idea
Also, the possibility of the games ending died thanks to the 10th, something Snow helped with
@@thalitachristine1218god this movie had me so torn..what a beautiful movie. The whole franchise is beautiful. I love all the interpretations of everybody in this comment section.
This book and movie seems like a good lesson on how to spot toxic\socio
arc men. There were several lines that Corio uttered that made me feel cold inside because they were verbatim lines my abusive ex had told me. Na example: yelling out at Lucy "are you trying to kill me? AFTER EVERYTHING I'VE DONE FOR YOU!".... As if acts of kindness are only a medium of exchange and not demonstrations of love.
it’s obsession and a transactional relationship..
He also felt no remorse after killing, and continued on spending his time w Lucy Grey after betraying his own friend, he was the one who recorded his friend knowing his friend would get killed for it.
I love your analysis. Here's what I think:
Grandma'am did a lot. Thanks to her, the remaining Snow has lima beans to survive during the dark days. She placed huge expectations on Snow to restore Snow's family glory; her voice is probably why he favors power over compassions/goodness. Her warning Snow about district children is her imparting wisdom, though to us normal people it sounds classist.
Dr. Gual groomed Snow. To say she influenced him is an understatement. Snow is an entitled character but not evil at the beginning of the story. He was an orphan with nothing to his name, and Dr. Gual targeted him. If his family riches are still available, would he still overstep and cheat the game to ensure his candidate wins? Maybe he'll do it for fame, or maybe he won't be so obsessed with winning, we'll never know. If his father is still alive and influential, would Gual throw him in the arena? would Gual target him? No. I think Snow, with the situation he's thrown at, has no choice but to be a monster to survive. He tried to do the right thing (study hard, get a ticket to university, restore his family name) but doing the right thing would not guarantee him success and in his case failure is unacceptable because he has no cushion to rely on (unlike Sejanus who has his family riches).
To add to your point about Snow's discovery of Tigris's possible involvement in sex work to help the family survive, Snow instead of having compassion prostitutes tributes like Finnick later on in the series shows his complete transformation to be truly evil.
It's Gaul, not Gual
@librasun321 My exact thoughts!
Minor nitpick: it’s not sex work when it’s a minor. It’s prostitution of a minor. Sex work is an employment choice. When it’s a minor there is no choice.
Such a great point about his poverty and orphan status making him a target for sociopathic grooming. This is exactly what happens in our world.
Nah, he could have run. He had the opportunity, he was running! He chose the path down which he knew he’d need to become more monstrous
After watching this, my mind went imediatly to one of the last scenes when Coriolanus asks Tigris How he looks and she says that he looks like like his father, but the way she says it (kudos to Hunter for so much depth in a simple scene) it's like she realized all her effort in raising the both of them was not enough. It's a sad, dissppointed expression with maybe a glimpse of fear too? Also, when Coriolanus Tells her of what happened when he had to do in the arena after he went there to "save" sejanus, we can see (or maybe that's Just me impressed by this video) how she's so desperate to keep a Sense of humanity and kindness in him.
By the way, this analysis was SO brilliantly argumented and crafted, I'm glad you took time and a lot of work to post this!
And she calls him with his full name, not 'Coryo'. I feel really bad for her
Volumnia Gaul is 100% intended to be a mother figure to Snow based on her name, so this is a really great point on your part. In Shakespeare’s Coriolanus, the eponymous main character’s mother is named Volumnia, and she is the one that pushes for his political career.
These ladies are foils of eachother. To give an example:
Grandmam Tigris
Both represent survival (remember Grandmam choose the beans early in the dark days and Tigris saves him by mending his clothes). Coriolanus dislikes Tigris' help because it is an uncomfortable reminder of them having nothing. She makes beautiful clothes, that lose their lustre in the presence of others. Whereas his grandmam still has this reputation of actually growing beauty (the roses which Snow will wear throughout his life).
One thing that stuck out to me in this video that I haven’t seen otherwise is your interpretation of why Snow hates the mockingjays. That they’re out of order and an abomination, that makes so much sense and I loved that insight!
As soon as I finished the book I wanted to write a thousand essays analyzing everything about it so I'm glad I'm not the only one with a lot of thoughts 😅
The power of the good book!!
I really like how you brought attention to snow loosing his mother’s things throughout the book also representing him loosing that side of himself. I never picked up on that
I think Dr Gaul remembered when Casca and Crassus were supposed to be working together and came up with the Hunger Games. I don't think she was trying to save Clemensia or anything, but she immediately realized that history was going to repeat itself and stopped it. Isolating her protege from yet another woman he might respect -and poisoning Clemensia. love this channel, love your analysis.
Ppl often overlook the idea that I love, the last thing Lucy did was go to pick Katniss- the action that ultimately put him on the path to destruction , and when Katniss arrives she actually destroys him
Coriolanus says he killed his old self to flee with Lucy but he actually killed his old self by not aligning his values with her. The self that was attracted to her never tried to understand and truly love her. It's a pretty typical fate for many infatuations but his affection or attachment for her was more about survival than love. The instinct to protect and help her to escape was there but it didn't run deep enough and ended when she escapes and he starts worrying more about his own safety. There was never any real trust between them. In a matter of minutes of escaping together, he starts caring more for his own self preservation and his instinct to "protect" Lucy disappears into thin air and so does Lucy.
I think it's a cop out to call him a sociopath or a narcissist. It otherizes him and allows us to ignore the shadow in ourselves. Dr. Gaul is a sadist and probably a psychopath, but anyone of us, sociopath or not, could go down a similar path as Snow.
So reading it I got hard-core npd vibes from him. The need to not be ordinary, the way people are objects to use or be possessed then discarded when they don’t meet expectations, the way he increasingly lacks remorse, the ease of lying. I had to think Collins was intentionally including these known traits of narcissism.
@@stephaniel1354 it's a fine perspective to have on this specifc character but I disagree someone needs to be different or have a personality disorder to use others in this way. You can be a total empath, but also know how to shove your empathy down in order to achieve your means. On the flip-side, there are truly Machiavellian people in our world who have also been incredibly compassionate. Gandhi, King Jr., and JFK are a few who come to mind.
@@stephaniel1354I agree & would add she also includes the very real progression people take in the unraveling if NPD. It’s said that NPD begins with a significant childhood trauma in which the future narcissist is abandoned. It is glaringly obvious that this is the case for Snow in the books, due to his parents death. I have also heard that narcissistic parents either breed narcissistic children or empaths & there are no in between. I’m assuming the grandma am was his father’s mother by his fathers description in the book & the traits of a distorted view of reality are also shown in her. It’s also evident just how far removed Tigris is from this - I’m assuming she had the empath/scapegoat of the family as her parent OR came from Snow’s mothers side which seemed much more empathetic.
real
This! Thank you.
In almost a cartoonish way, the movie sets up this ongoing theme of Katniss constantly being a painful reminder of Lucy Gray. They're both defiant, outspoken women from District 12. A Covee girl digs up "swamp potato," which Lucy Gray calls "katniss." Lucy also gives the excuse that she's going to dig up katniss when she runs away. Lucy and Katniss both sing to help themselves through the games/rebellion. Finally, Katniss sings the song Lucy wrote - "the Hanging Tree," which comes to represent Snow's time in District 12. Katniss becomes a sentimental thorn in Snow's side. Even having the mockingjay as Katniss's symbol reminds him of a girl who knew he couldn't be trusted.
Right. It's so eerie imagining Snow's perspective. I always rewatch the moment in the movies when he sees her coming in on the chariot for the first time. Donald Sutherland did such a good job of making the perfect expression during that moment. It's got to be weird having the last thing Lucy said to him being about going to get Katniss and then when he's super old seeing the Katniss come from District 12. If I were him it would feel like Lucy Gray sending me a gift in the mail, just had to wait 60 something years delivery time. A "gift" that's on FIRE no less lol
I think he did love Lucygray however his hunger for power ruined any true happiness he could have had.
I do not think he loved her for that his inner voice is way to mean about her, he was attracted to her and missread that as romantic affection. He wante her, he was posessiv of her, he liked the idea of loving her . . . she sings a song about him and he is awed cause that flattered his ego, she sings the ballade she was named after moments later and he is disnterested, finds it silly and nothing of the awe or adoration is left cause it was never genuine.
the slightest doubt was enough to make him willing to kill her!
He obsessed over her but also he had in some moments a real care about her (when she get injured during the bomb attack and he concerned about she get properly healed, when she speak about keeping rats away in the monkey house, or when he send her to sing to have her alibi after the murder).
I think snow had the capacity for love. It seems clear that he did in fact have very real feelings for others. But when it came down to it, his view of himself prevented him from ever expressing it meaningfully. In the end he is just too selfish and arrogant to ever put anyone else before him. In the movie it's very clear just how special he thinks he is and how much he thinks he *deserves* from others. As soon as you get in his way he will betray you, only to blame the victim and justify it in his mind as them having wronged him. He has a massive savior complex, which is his fatal flaw.
he never loved her, many including snow referred to lucy gray as if she was his property. he felt he had the right to her. it was never love
@@Zivanovaablefor me it’s the moments when in the book he unconsciously shows her the same level of care as his family members; parroting facts about nutrition as he offers food bc that’s how someone comforted him (that’s literally the golden rule, empathy). He tries to explain it away but it’s there
You did a great job in analysing Snow’s mother figures. As much as I dislike psychoanalysis as a paradigm of study I can’t help but feel that your dissection of Mrs Snow, Grandmaam and Dr Gaul neatly fit the Freudian definition of the superego, the ego and the id:
Mrs Snow - the superego that acts as a self-critical conscience, the moral component of the psyche
Grandmaam - the ego acting as the mediation between the id and the superego, the self that one wants to project outwardly towards others
Dr Gaul - the id that contains all the primitive urges and impulses (eg. Her view of humans being in a natural state of chaos without government, who will murder each other for self-preservation)
And as Coriolanus suppresses his superego (Mrs Snow), he gives in to the influences of the id (Dr Gaul), eventually shaping him into the psychopath we know in Katniss’ time
Yes!
This was such a good video!! I loved the analysis of Mrs. Snow. It really got me thinking of Strabo Plinth’s conversation with Coriolanus when he asked him “are you like your mother or your father” and how Coriolanus missed the point so deeply by saying he liked music like his mother. That was Strabo’s subtle way of asking “will you treat district people like me with respect.”
This just proves that a girl full of love and a little hope can win in the end
You know the usual thing where a character talks about future plans just to die in the next scene, right? It makes you think about all the could haves. Lucy and Tigris show paths Snow could have taken. Already knowing what did happen made the experience delightfully painful.
Nice job with this analysis! I think you picked a great thread to examine, I hadn't really thought about how all the most influential figures in Snow's life (who are actually present in the story) are women. I agree about his connection to his mother being ultimately pretty thin, though I think he also probably took a formative lesson from her death; we see that he has disdain for things he perceives as weak and, consciously or unconsciously, probably thinks about his mother's softness and warmth as an example of how not to be because she wasn't able to 'make it.' For me with characters from books and/or movies I feel like psychological analysis can only get you so far because at the end of the day they aren't a full being, they only exist so far as they've been conjured by the author... in addition to the psychological angle I think it's also revealing to look at Suzanne Collins' literary and historical influences, because a lot of times she's drawing pretty direct parallels. (And I don't mean this as a critique of your video, just wanting to share additional places to look for insight.) For example, in Shakespeare's play "Coriolanus," his mother, Volumnia, has some striking similarities to Dr. Volumnia Gaul in TBOSAS, so I'd say you're definitely onto something about Gaul being another mother figure. In the play Volumnia has a passage where she talks about sending Coriolanus off to war at a young age, in order to have him win honor and acclaim as a soldier - which is basically what Dr. Gaul does when she sends Corio into the arena and off to District 12.
I think the balance of men and women that Coriolanus spends his time with is interesting. He says he is close with some of his male classmates, but we see him interact with Arachne and Clemensia the most. The only men he interacts with meaningfully are Sejanus and Highbottom. Meanwhile, he is shaped by not only the women you focus on in the video, but also Ma, Maude Ivory, Mayfair, and (somewhat) the female scientist who worked with the jabberjays. He expects to have some connection with Mr. Plinth because he feels like he is better than him but actually forms a relationship with Ma.
This is such a good analysis! It makes me think - Snow tells Katniss throughout the books that she's like him, and they understand each other, which I think is part of why Katniss comes to see herself as selfish and untrustworthy. You say that he can't control what he doesn't understand. I wonder if he saw some parts of himself in Katniss (perhaps things that weren't even there in her, just like he projects his terrible qualities onto everyone else) and hoped he could control her by convincing her she was like him, so that she would behave predictably. He disregarded all the evidence that Katniss was drastically different from him and instead focused on what he could understand about her, trying to encourage those parts of her, trying to mutate her into another version of himself, the way Dr Gaul did with him. Very thought provoking analysis, thank you!
Volumnia is the name of the character Coriolanus in the Shakespeare play. Genius!
This may sound very strange, but considering what I’ve read about Napoleon’s life, it seems like snow echoes some of his behaviors. For instant, they both grew up in a relatively aristocratic family but they were unknown, they were known for having complicated relationships with women, like how both Napoleon and Snow are seemingly obsessed with women like Lucy and Josephine. They both left them to be in a loveless marriage with different women for political reasons.
great analysis!! Thank you very much for the work you've done/gen
unfortunately, despite loving it, there is a statement i don't especially agree with, and it's about people being naturally kind, or givers, because most of the people who do good are usually motivated either by " no one is going to do it besides me", "i just gotta" or by " i've seen too much hurt to cause it myself " and it normally comes not naturally, but from the way and conditions they were raised in, their sensibility and believes they inherited. There might be someone who is kind because of being born this way, but i genuinely can't think of anything similar to such a case.
It should also be noted that Coriolanus Snow is named after the Shakespeare play, Coriolanus. Which sees the eponymous character become a dictator descending into tyranny, bloodshed and finally his removal from power.
In the play, Coriolanus’ mother, Volumnia, is emotionally manipulative-having a profound effect on his psyche. Instead of offering parental nourishment, Volumnia coaxes her son to further aggression. She takes credit for turning him into the deadliest warrior and for toughening him up.
This exactly mirrors Coriolanus Snow’s relationship with Dr. Volumnia Gaul as she bares some responsibility for encouraging the killer in him.
Oh shit, someone already wrote this lol
I personally wonder how much Coriolanus would have been different if his mother survived childbirth. Not only would he have a little sister who could’ve positively impacted him, and his mother living longer could’ve made a difference. Had she lived even to around the time of the 10th hunger games or even just lasted past the war, I wonder if his Mother’s influence would’ve made him a better person and set him up to be more comfortable with giving and comfortable with the spirit of freedom that Lucy Gray represented.
it's interesting how in the epilogue when the Plith adopts the Snow, Coriolanus calls Mrs. Plith as "Ma" while he stills calls Mr. Plith as "Sir", Coriolanus finally leaves behind the image of his own mother and replacing it of someone who thinks and believes in the capitol, who betrayed their own district for it, but still leaving in his memory the image of his father, because no one could ever replace the grand general who fought and die for capitol
I will forever show this video and other analysis videos to people whenever someone tells me "The Hunger Games series isn't that deep". It is. It can be if YOU look deeper. Collins was very clever imo and you can tell she thought every character and plot point through before she even began writing the story.
I'm binge-watching all of your Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes videos and i love them! I just had a thought: Other videos have speculated that Snow knew Katniss wasn't really in love with Peeta in the beginning of Catching Fire because Snow was once in love with Lucy Gray and knows what love is really like. I think it's the opposite: Snow knows that Katniss is using Peeta's love to survive and he fully recognizes this because that's how he also saw Lucy Gray.
I feel like he could have believed that in retrospect as an old man, but I think he mostly saw that Katniss was playing the game and manipulating people the way he had encouraged mentors to teach their tributes to for presumably years - to make people watch.
one detail i really liked about the movie is the opening scene. Snow and his cousin witness a man commit cannibalism and are attacked by dogs in a very war-torn capital, no doubt traumatizing for a child. When he gets home, he hopes with all his might that maybe there will be some comfort from his father.
But Grandmam, the only adult woman in his life, reveals to him after all this turmoil that his father is dead and says that he (a literal child) is the "man" of his house now. I like to think inadvertently, this line from grandmam forever changed the way snow would view his role in the world. Hence why he justifies most of his cruelty and actions via his station as "one of the last snows" or for the betterment of his family.
Gaul orchestrates a lot of events in his life too.She sends him into the arena. She must give the compact to Highbottom, much like she manipulates the arena. And the talk of her as a mother figure made me think... are we certain Mrs. Snow died a NATURAL death in childbirth? Because... who was her OB? It seems suspect that the Capitol, with all its medicine couldn't save her (though not impossible, obviously).
Wow que buen análisis!
Dr. Gaul is the true villain of the series
More twisted than Snow and Coin
I LOVED this video / analysis ! Tigris is one of the most tragic parts to me, that she put herself through so much to care for Snow/her family and he still cast her aside and did not value her work or opinion in the end.
Oh wow, I legitimately just finished bingeing all your content on Ballad of songbirds and snakes about and hour or so ago mind you I JUST found your channel 😭 then you drop this that’s WILD
Hahahaha🫶🏽🤭 my head has been living in panem for a bit 😭
Good analysis. As much as I agree Dr. Gaull was a maternal figure to Snow I also think she was a paternal figure as well. We never met Snow's father but I imagine he was similar to how he raised Snow to the way Dr. Gaull interacts with Snow. He regretted not being able to prove his worth to his father so he was eager to prove his worth to Dr. Gaull. Also as cold as both Dr. Gaull was, and I imagine Snow's father to be it would have been familiar and comforting.
It’d be fascinating to get a book on Dr. Gaul’s life
Knowing how much he likes control and his possessive inner monologue, I think had she not ran that he would have just tried to possess her and take away her freedom so she would belong to him forever.
I’m so glad to see an analysis video of this! You did a great job
Snow is basically geto from jujutsu kaisen. "I hate those primitive createures" 😂
There is so much symbolism in the Hunger Games books that kinda went over my head as a teen. Now, reading TBOSAS, which is equally as rich and strong and complex as the trilogy let me to do a deep dive into these books again and really, I just appreciate Suzanne Collins so so much.
And then your video plopped up and it seemed interesting cause it views Snow through a lense I hadn't considered before. I always saw Snow, and all the Capitol kids really, as being "songbirds", used and molded to fit the Capitol's agenda to ensure its survival by instilling their violent thinking patterns and dehumanizing the district people.
The kids carry them with them, unleashing them on others. Snow was just one of many manipulated children of the Capitol. While that is not the whole reason he turns out who he is in the end you wonderfully point out the women who shape him on his journey! Snow being just another mutt to Dr. Gaul? Such a good point! He is just another experiment to her, and when that is disrupted (by Clemmie meddling with it) she gets angry for potentially screwing up the result aka Snows development.
Coriolanus mother's presence is so elusive in the books too, even to Coriolanus himself. I think it shows how empathy and kindness were always so feeble concepts to grasp for him. He not only had his father's characteristics in appearance but also in character. And while he wishes to be more like his mother he never makes an actual effort to behave differently. And ofc someone like Dr. Gaul latches onto those already existing qualities..
I really love your analysis and connections you point out! I'll definitely check out more of you videos.
And I loved the line along of "I don't like to listen to women's characterisation by men". That is so powerful! And it got me thinking.. mens thoughts on women are probably often warped by common biased lenses when they didn't do the work to crack open these biases yet. That thought definitely will stay with me when I encounter certain kinds of comments or stories by men about women in the future.❤
Edit: oh and I almost forgot: I love that you point out that Katniss, someone who is everything Snow isn't ends up being his downfall. Empathy and compassion, humanity triumph over cruelty, dehumanisation, need for control
Your mind blew me away 🙌🏻 great analysis, deep and connected in a different way from what we're used to. Thank you for your video!
After reading the book I also agree I don’t think he truly loved her for what love really is. In the movie (which I saw first) I leaned more towards he did love her. After he found the guns in the book he already decided he wanted to go back to the capital. He wanted to leave her first. (I think from her POV she also wanted to leave, and they decided alone, at the same time.) that’s why he made up all the excuses that he could that she was a traitor so he could betray her and leave her in the wilderness, then knowing she knows he’s a murderer he knew he couldn’t leave her alive in case she came back to say something so, he decided in his head all of a sudden she was a horrible person to make the choice of killing her seem just.
this is a masterpiece of video. my goodness. i love your thoughts on this book as a person who also has been obsessed with this book recently, especially after watching the movie, and you just fully blossomed a small idea i had in my mind that i thought i was maybe over analyzing.
i absolutely adore the hunger games for portraying every female characters as a person first and foremost. my biggest issue with art is the tendency to other women as just that. "women characters", instead of characters that are women. you cannot grasp the complexities of their existence in the story if their role in it is to be a woman. suzanne collins has masterfully written each and every character in the hunger games, and each play a particular role in the narrative. victors, tributes, capitols, revolutionaries, all with distinct character traits and individualism. gender is another aspect to these characters that impacts how they approach the world, not determining the role they fulfill. in the ballad of songbirds and snakes, it is quite refreshing to see meaningfully impactful female characters, who have influenced the story so greatly. wonderful work.
Dr gaul was my favorite character in both the movie and book; she's crazy yea, but brilliant, and ultimately the Creator of the capital as we first see it in the hunger games
I'm so sorry it's completely unrelated but I always cackled every time I hear about grandmothers general stereotypes, which is, kind, gentle, wise, warm etc. When my own grandma is just this loveless and vicious narcissistic manipulator with words like poisson and split tongue :v
great video btw, I really love this discourse. I noticed a little about his relationship with women when I read the books, especially when the tBoSaS book came out, but I can't really put it into words but you explained so well and perfectly 👏🏾
Saaaame! My grandma on my dad's side would say the most racist, mean-spirited and vile stuff but then act offended if you ever questioned her or called her BS out (I mean n-word with hard R, accuse my Albanian friend of trying to poison me with 'foreigner food', etc). According to her money could solve all issues and families keep together no matter what (even with a predator cousin and thief aunt). Now that you said it I see my grandma in the grandma'am, that explains why I felt so uncomfortable with that character
@@caesar98 wtf jisus chirst why are they like that
when I was a little I always wonder why people are so excited to go to their grandparents house, whereas I just absolutely hate to go there
as I grow older I know the reasons
@@catleaxmas5416 I guess they had hardships in their lifes and use it as excuses to behave poorly. I moved away as soon as I could because it was just such a toxic environment. I remember every birthday being asked "well what will become of you?" with such a condescending tone. I was so happy when I moved for uni and could just be away from the toxicity
@@caesar98 i couldn't emphasis more on how similar our experiences with my own grandma. Even though, I have a job and she still thinks that I am unemployed and never have my own money.
I am glad you got out, I hope the best for you in life
Same
This was really great! Thanks for sharing and putting your perspective out there; it made me appreciate the books in ways I hadn't thought to before.
Great video and amazing analysis! though I do think people put too much of Snow's outcome on Doctor Gaul; he already embodied a lot of her ideology, i think she saw that in him. He had the potential to continue his legacy and did, but she was not the sole reason for his being.
Oh, this is one HELL of an essay. Subscribed!
Beautiful done, thank you so much for sharing! It seems to me that works like these are so great because you get to work on your own person, and people don't always see how important it is. Have a nice day/night ❤
Ooooh your into is so textually supported and compelling. I need to learn from you
What about katniss and peetas mother. Mrs everdeen and mrs Mellark. What’s Susan’s think with not naming the mothers
This may be a reach but I feel like it could represent how a mother's legacy and identity is defined by her children. It doesn't matter what her name is, what she has accomplished. If her children are good, then she is good (even if she has been a bad mother), and if her children are bad, then she is bad (even if she tried her absolute best). Also how many times have you heard a mother be referred to as XYZ's Mom, instead of her name? The legacy and identity of the mother is her children, her name does not matter anymore
Their fathers didn’t get names either, Gale’s mother was named Hazelle.
I’ve been hoping a review like this would pop up on my timeline! Cheers
I haven’t watched the video yet but hope this comes up because it’s something i noticed in the books. Snow is CONSTANTLY looks down at sex work performed by women. when he considers tigress might have been forced to turn to prostitution he first evaluated how much she would be worth (gross) and then instead of feeling empathy and gratefulness he shames her. He does the same for Lucy Gray later. I think this really just shows his possessiveness and how he wants the women in his life to be only his and not “owned” or USED by any other man
Considering the tributes were often made into sex slaves, both men and women, I think he really doesn't care about prostitution. He only has distain for it when it concerns women in his personal life.
I think it’s less that he minds sex work in general and more that he thinks it’s for poor people (mentions when considering whether Tigris had done it that the Snows hadn’t fallen far enough) and he just dislikes the idea of any man being with a woman he desires. He’s actually more pissed at the idea of Lucy Gray having a previous lover than having done sex work.
If anything I think that's more evidence he sees it as depraved and humiliating, he uses forced sex work as a way to punish the district kids who had the audacity to win @@TimberlakeTigerGirl
The bit at the end of the book where he questioned if his mum did like music backs this up
I am absolutely loving the abundance of awesome video essays like this about THG stories and characters ❤
Very well spoken, thought out analysis! 100% agree with everything you said here and it only makes me wonder what women were in his life in between now and the 74th games. We know he has a granddaughter, so he must’ve been married at some point, but we never see a significant other in the books or the movies for him, nor do we see any children. Did he have them killed or were there other misfortunes in his life that further shaped and developed his psyche? 4 books just aren’t enough for this universe 😭
As far as I know, in regards to his wife, it wasn't a marriage of love. Snow only loved Lucy and once she disappeared he never loved another woman. He only married a wealthy Capital woman to produce an heir but their marriage was 'civil at best'. I think his wife passed away a few years before the 74th games.
And we briefly see Snow's son, daughter in law and two granddaughters in Mockingjay part 1 during Snows speech.
I loooved your analysis ❤ i could add that Coriolanus seeks control and power to that extent because he hates feeling vulnerable, therefore, he's incapable of true love
thought this video was gonna have like 100k views but it only has about 2k! This is such an interesting analysis, brb im gonna reread the book again haha
this was such an amazing take. side note your voice is so beautifully soothing!
This analysis makes me want to read the whole book. I have just watched the movie. It is surprisingly good.
this was incredibly fascinating, thank you for putting this together! wow!
and thank you for emphasizing that Snow did NOT love Lucy Gray. not truly. it was a facade or an escape. the movie i feel makes you think she betrayed him when truly Lucy Gray was finally seeing his heart, he was not trustworthy, and she needed to escape.
It's worth pointing out that snow grew up in a home with minimal amount of love, Tigris was the only person who showed some sort of love towards him.
His grandmother constantly talked to him about upholding fhe family name and honor and how Snow was compared to his father.
In that sense you could argue that Snow had very little understanding of love towards others so his ideas of what love was,or how it manifested itself was a new concept to him.
Snow also had no father figure,so its easy to see how he turned out,in contrast to say Katniss who grew up in a home with love and affection and with both parents there.
I do believe that snow was honestly in love with Lucy gray, at least love as he saw it in his mind. Yes he said that she was his but thats no different than a boyfriend saying that his girlfriend is well his or how a husband says "my wife" or vice versa "my husband."
Snow cared only for himself to an extent yes but once again except tigris no one really cared about him, Lucy gray pretended to care for him just to use him to get back at the mayors daughter and for her own survival, Gaul used him to keep the games alive and keep her legacy alive and his own grandmother was only interested in the prestige and honor of the family which was put on Snow's shoulders.
"Its the things we love the most that destroys us." Well what did destroy him if not his love for Gray and for those close around him, he wasnt lying when he said that he had killed his old self. Snow realized quickly that the world he wanted to create or preserve was the same world those around him wanted to destroy.
katniss didn’t grow up with love and both parents there. Katniss had to assume a parent role, just like snow. Katniss is a direct parellel to show that Snow, has choices.
Two women brought about Snow's dowfall - Katniss and Coin.
No because a full whiteboard video from you would eattttt 🤞🏻
This was such an insightful video, and your voice is very calm and soothing
This is a very well put together video!
Absolutely stunning and brilliant analysis.
I hadn't put it together that everyone important that we know about in Snow's life, other than, briefly, Sejanus and Highbottom, is a woman. Growing up it was his family, Gaul, and Lucy Gray; in the end it was Coin and Katniss. We never get much insight into whether he consciously values women differently than men, but it is fascinating that he absorbs so much from the women he was raised around, but casts them aside so easily once he decides he needs control. I do also think it's important that we acknowledge characters aren't people. A character is just a collection of ideas and themes that a real person wanted to talk about
He uses other people’s warmth and empathy as (literal) weapons and yet it’s someone so full of empathy is the only person who can defeat him.
This is the first time I’m on your channel and I wanna say that I think your video essay was beautifully done and it makes me wanna see the movie and read the book!
This video is outstanding analysis
Wonderful analysis! I think maybe the usage of "Mrs." with the more distant mother-like figures representing morality is very intentional in showing his connection to them. A sort of wish to be close and acknowledgment that they had an impact, but an inability to really connect with those figures in one way or another which ultimately influenced how he connected with the other women in his life.
I feel like deep down he still cares about Tigris as he doesn’t have her executed and he probably knows she’s a rebel
I think Snow could understand doing things for people he loved in the beginning. He wanted to win the money for his family to have a better life with them originally, but once he was thrown into everything and District 12. He was scared, desperate, and manipulated. Then he took a way worse path. All people react to trauma differently. He reacted in a way that made him hateful, vengeful, and controlling. He wanted power over others. Others react in a way where they show kindness, compassion, equality, openness, understanding, and love for others. Everyone reacts differently to trauma. You’re not born bad. You choose to be based on your life experiences, people around you, and mindset towards life.
This is a great analysis. My only note is to be careful about making the "dark triad" some sort of mystical thing of monsters. People with ASPD and NPD deserve respect and compassion. I'm not saying Snow might not have had these diagnoses-- I'm not a psychological professional-- but I would just gently recommend being more careful in the future!
They aren’t just women he used. Dr. Gaul, for instance, used him.
Just stumped across your channel and your content is right up my alley. You’ve secured a new subscriber! Keep up the good work. I’m excited to witness the growth of your channel.
wow I love this!! you mentioned some things I haven't thought of but I totally agree, great video
I actually loved this unpacking of the women in his life. Absolutely fantastic video.
i love these analysis videos so much
Very good analysis! Thanks for the insights you pointed out!😍
I know that panem is based off Roman society or as a cheap reflection of it. And I remember for somewhere that sons got passed down names and got long names where daughters got a single simple name and some shared their name with their sisters or mother, that could explain why they are just Mrs.Snow and Mrs. Plith and ehy snows father has a longer name.
Classicist here, there wasn't much difference in how Romans named their sons vs their daughters. Children were frequently named for their birth order (names like Primus and Octavia) or for their parents (Julius Caesar named his beloved daughter Julia)
This is very interesting. I do wonder if Snow is a natural sociopath, or someone who kind of self-created himself to be one by adopting what he had decided was the "right" way to be--you can't get anywhere by being nice. The order and control I think are native to him, but that's not inherently bad. But his reaction to people who challenge that--Haymitch, Katniss, and especially Peeta--his response to it is so strong that it feels less like, "This is a threat to my power" than "This is a threat to the deepest beliefs I hold about how people are." It's personal, which suggests to me that it's less his inherent personality than a belief system he adopted so early that threats to it--things that prove not everyone is just out for himself, that not everyone around him is cheating and lying, making it obvious that he needs to do the same--are serious personal threats, threats to his very identity. I'd blame the grandmother, but let's be honest--she lost at least two children, her entire family fortune, and her way of life, and I think by the time we meet her, she is not at all stable. She's grasped on to her status as the only thing that matters, and passed that on to her bright grandson, filling his head with expectations of what he would have to be to fulfill her dreams. That's a pretty toxic brew on its own, then combined with his apparently innate need for order, Highbottom's repeated humiliations (of a kid who--whatever he would do later--was still _a kid_ at at the time), then Gaul's reinforcing of his growing belief in how horrible people are... it builds into a fairly tragic destruction of himself as much as everyone else.
(On my last re-read, I noticed the personality and physical changes in Clemmie after the mutt attack, and had a fairly horrible idea that maybe Tigris hadn't actually altered her appearance by choice. A mutt attack seems likely. Either Coriolanus ordered it, or it was the cause of his deep embarrassment about her.)
His actions being explained by in-born mental illness would ruin his character. He is the perfect creation of the Capitol, exactly the person they seek to make.
Ooh, this is a very interesting analysis! Loved the video.
Really cool analysis!
I fully agree with all the statements mentioned . Thanks for doing this ❤
He loved her he was just to obsessed with power.
Also he felt he wouldn't live in a forest as a hermit and wasn't learned skills for that (unlike Lucy and the Covey who were nomadic tribe and had it ).
I love this analysis. Great job!