Just a note May 17th 2024 CMDR Sharkey Ward commander of 801 Sqn in the Falklands War passed away so this is fairly timely... good video all round though...
@@MrTendentious Yep, went to Leuchars in about 1984 on Summer Camp with the ATC. 43 Sqn and 111 Sqn were there at the time. Had a flight in the Search and Rescue Wessex chopper over St Andrews. Brilliant.
Really pleased to see proper attention given to the actual ordnance used for these reenactments. A number of creators seem perfectly happy to use 1980’s or 1990’s AAM’s to try and recreate a 1960’s or 1970’s battle.
But is it ? At the time of the Falklands, the RAF Phantoms would be equipped not with Sparrows but the far more capable and reliable Skyflash. Not much wrong with the Sparrow air-frame and warhead, but its guidance was rather lacking. Skyflash was a big jump forwards with an inverse monopulse seeker. I spent 18 years on it through R&D then production. A fairly good bit of kit for its day.
Turns out “Who would win- planes with lots of longer range missiles that can shoot at stuff in front of them or planes with only a few short range missiles that can only shoot at stuff from directly behind them?” isn’t as much of a mystery as you might think.
that and sparrow m is a pretty good missile in general, much more reliable than the older e and f models. same case with the aim9l. 1980s is a time of new small and powerful chips revolutionize the avionics on planes and weapons.
I lived with the RAF F4’s 19&92 sqdns, at RAF Wildenrath in 1976-79 so I loved this Video many happy memories of them, including bein at school and a scramble happened the f4 went out then came back across the base low level supersonic smashed almost all the windows in the school, and another standing about 200’ back from an F4 as it took off, the heat and the noise was immense, the second was thanks to having an ATC WO as a father.
It must be remembered that the Dagger's were basically dumbed down Mirage V's and intended purely for ground attack (limited self defence AAM use), so they had their RADAR's removed to give them slightly more carry capacity and would have to rely on ground controllers or the Mirage III's to give them interception vectors etc.
I was a flightline armourer on 31Sqdn in Germany in the mid ‘70s and I was also able to get up close to Starfighters when we were on inter NATO Air Force deployments to Decimomannu Air Base, Cagliari in Sardinia. Stand out features (although they didn’t stand out very far in comparison to other jet fighters) were the stubby wings, the leading edge of which were nearly razor sharp which was different from normal wing cross section. The other thing that was slightly disconcerting, was how easily they wobbled about when a bit of my body weight was applied. The F104, with much longer wings for high altitude cruising was modification for the U2 reconnaissance aircraft.
From what I understand the decision to switch to the Rolls royce engines in the RAF/RN Phantoms was both for logistical reasons and because the R-R engines had much better low end acceleration; which would help greatly with small carrier operations. I also understand it is regarded as a superior engine option in almost all regards; fuel efficiency included.
Yeah they were more powerful at takeoff and low speeds, plus it was easier to get spare parts. The only problem was that the RR engines needed the fuselage and intakes to be made bigger to accommodate the larger engines.
@@ivorharden The other problem was that the fuselage was fatter and had more drag. The Spey was good at low to medium altitudes but at higher altitudes the J-79 was superior. Teh RAF actually leased ex USN F-4Js to be stationed in the Falklands post war
@@ivorharden the engine itself is not that much bigger than the J-79, but it uses a LOT more air... IIRC the J-79 is around 170 cubic feet per and the Spey is about 210 CF: The real killer was how the RN wanted them angled IN the fuselage! They wanted them angled such that they would give a bit more OOOMPH getting off the carrier deck so like a 20 degree angle and a HUGE front wheel strut to increase the angle of attack was all to make it easier to launch off the smaller carriers of the RN. What limited top end speed was budget... exceed M 1.9 and you are going to have to replace the canopy more often because it will tend to get cloudy from the high temps. As I understand it the US had the same problem but deeper pockets so F it lets go fast!
British Phantom’s used Spey engines as they were better accelerating at low level, therefore better suited to the smaller British carriers. However, it was slower overall and suffered at high altitude when compared to the F4J (the US contemporary model).
It was a total of 185mph slower at altitude, due to it being slightly bigger than the US F4E & later J model because of its Spey engines. That being because the RAF Phantoms unlike the the E & J models were not purely designed as interceptors & lacked their wing slats & an internal gun.
Not necessarily because the Spey’s could be tuned by technicians for high or low altitude. The carrier aircraft were all low altitude tuned but the RAF phantoms could vary dramatically depending on the doctrine of the squadron. Like the Lightnings. Which all had 1 perfect race horse interceptor and a bunch of dog aircraft. There were training squadrons with dog aircraft with no tuning so they couldn’t kill the engines. But there were certainly performance outliers for German based squadrons
Shocked the blob didn't do more against the phantoms. Seemed the brits managed to get around it by thinning out the blob with front aspect missiles. Ultimately, your conclusions were right. You even gave them a slight edge with Mirage F1s and the fact the Daggers that Argentina had would've been far worse at A2A than the equivalent mirages. But overall, nice to see Phantoms doing Phantom things - get high, fast and lob missiles. Glorious
Fighting Cocks……they were based at Leuchars, I think……I used to visit their archery club when I went on holiday to Fife as a boy…….great bunch of guys…….
Can't wait for an all-female British fighter unit, I bet they will come up with an equally ambiguous name. Or maybe an unambiguous one, say, fighting c....
Before I watch this video, it's something I've always thought about. If we still had HMS ARK ROYAL & EAGLE, with Phantoms and Buccaneers, would Argentina, even have invaded in the first place?
Possibly. The Argentine leaders thought that the UK wasn't serious about the Falklands back then (the Tory government actually wanted to make a Hong Kong style 99-year lease arrangement with Argentina).
The liberal left always wants to cut the military, claiming they’re too expensive and reasoning that having weapons causes others to attack them. Then, when they get themselves into war, they end up spending 4 times as much and getting a bunch of their people killed because they weren’t prepared for a war.
I think Eagle was gone so many years earlier (1970?) that you can’t really bring her into the “what if?” Falklands debate here. That leaves The Ark on her own and the question whether (at full load of 24 Phantoms and 12 Buccs) it would’ve been enough to be a deterrent, or whether she would’ve fared much better overall in combat than our two small carriers did with a similar number of Harriers between them? Although of little deterrent value, the biggest advantage IMO would’ve undoubtedly been AEW aircraft, although how effective the Gannets ancient 1940s era system was by the ‘80s I don’t personally know…
I believe the RR Speys were also added due to the fact that the UK government cancelled all the home grown aircraft projects and needed aircraft. In an attempt to keep some business to the UK companies they selected to use Hawker Siddley to produce most of the UK phantoms and RR to power them to help British aviation industries
No surprise. We buy aircraft off the yanks such as Apache and chinooks, throw out their crap engines and fit RR engines instead. More reliable, faster, better range, higher celings and more fuel efficient.
The Royal navy wanted the spey engine because it had better takeoff and low altitude performance and in fact had slightly better fuel consumption than the J-59. It also wanted speys as they had spare parts compatibility with the buccaneers already in service. The british government wanted the spey as it reduced the overall import cost of the phantom thus improving its trade deficit compared to j-59 powered planes.
This is utterly beautiful, only watching this today and what a way to finish the week, started off at Duxford summer airshow watching the Dakota’s get loaded up with airborne paratroopers to daily spitfires flying over me, to watching this. Brilliant
I was stationed at MPA in the mid eighties & saw the F-4's of 1435 flt in action doing mock attacks on the rapier sites & the base , flight of two would always escort the arrival & departure of the "Timmy's" have the photo's of them seeing me off on my run home . Great fun on this sim Reapers😂.
They always send up fighters to do a vid I believe in case something is trying to slip in either by false signal or even hiding under the real aircraft, masking its radar return.
Analysis: Argentina lost not only its ability to support an invasion of the Falklands, but is ability to defend mainland Argentina. I’d be curious at he result of the UK only had the one squadron of F4s Port Stanley could have supported in real life.
So basically for the cost of 4 Phantoms the RAF would have shot down basically the entire Argentinian Air Force. Also that's 13-1, which is basically in line with what the USAF found (10 to 12-1) the Phantom to be capable of in skilled hands.
Argentine air force had 7 x C130H Transport aircraft (with 1 shot down) and only 2 KC 130H tankers in April 1982 which seriously limited their ability to surge large strikes greater than 8 aircraft but then the British didn't have the worlds longest hallway either (RAF Mount St Pleasant) so have at it.
It was a damn shame that the RN didn't have the Ark Royal and the Phantom and possible Buccaneer wings on board. Then again I'm pretty sure I've read that the Argies likely wouldn't have tried had that been the case.
They were making signs to try around 1975 or 76. My dad was in Zulu in the Caribbean and they were told to store up, refuel and then go to an Atlantic r/v position. Turns out they were going to meet up with the first part of the task force which was being rapidly made ready - we still had enough ships to assemble and send a force in just about 10 days. Ark Royal and Hermes were to be part of it. Phantoms, Buccs, Gannets - a decent air wing. Someone in Argentinian government pointed this out, also pointing out that they'd make one hell of a mess of Argentinian bases, dockyards, Buenos Aires etc!! They did the wise thing and backed away. Then I got to fight the buggers in 82 instead of my dad in 76!!
@@nicholasmoore2590 Interesting, I'd heard there was sabre rattling going on but for the politicians to pull out of the Falklands anyway, even the research vessel, you have to wonder what Thatcher was thinking? Thanks for doing your duty, I'd have been 3 at the time? Time flies!
@@s3p4kner Thatcher was all about minimising government including the military. She was actually on her way out before regaining political capital with a win in the Falklands
As for interceptors, Genie nuclear tipped AA missile were evaluated at Warton on the EEL and were fitted to one side on the T5 version. Also the Buccaneer's toss delivery of Red Beard nuclear bombs was evaluated by the RAF for the both the Javelin and EEL Lightning, where they would release a nuclear bomb against oncoming Soviet bombers. The development of the Red Top missile eventually gave the Lighting a head on capability and some sources suggest that some Red Tops contained instant sunshine.
Always wondered about F4 what if's during the 82 war and if they had made the Atlantic conveyor a Harrier carrier for self defence with a pair perhaps and CIWS defo would have been a bonus on her.
I'd love to see the same battle, but Argentina using Mig-23 with their most modern missiles. Mig-23 was supposed to be a better Phantom killer than Mig-21 but their radar and weapons took too long to develop.
Pre-watch prediction: Argentina will lose so many aircraft that, even if they technically “win” they will be unable to defend their invasion force from the UK’s response, or even defend Argentina itself.
I remember seeing RAAF mirages flying past at air shows. Beautiful plane. Would be interesting to do a what if scenario where the British and Argentinian carriers clash…
Very interesting Cap. Many thanks. I was an RAF-mad 10 year old at the time. It was great to see al those aircraft on the TV time and frankly, a ripping yarn for a young lad. Even so, it was a big deal and I knew that at the time. It may seem like a fairly small deal if you're not British, but certainly to me and my friends of a similar age, it certainly wasn't and isn't a small deal.
its not just the logistics, unless fighting a desperate survival battle such as the RAF in the Battle of Britain, no country would commit all their assets and leave themselves defenceless even to 'friendly' neighbours.
Here's one I think might be interresting: could you try doing an alt-history version of the "Whiskey on the Rocks" incident, where the Soviet Union hadn't stopped. Could Sweden have stopped the Soviet forces from getting to the stranded submarine?
Hi Cap, An idea for a mission: RAF of 1990 (or late cold war) vs. RAF of 2024. It's a bit daft I know but it could be so much fun!!! I reckon the Phantoms could stand in well for Tornado F.3s as I don't think they're in DCS? Anyway, wishing you and the team well!
If someone releases an F-4K/M mod, you'll have fun with that! No ECM pods, no countermeasures until after 1980 but a really good pulse-doppler radar for the time. AIM-9G (later AIM-9L) and AIM-7E-2 (replaced after 1978 with the excellent Skyflash).
VERY cool video, guys! A good ol' fashioned turkey shoot for the RAF! I wonder if you guys can do a "test" of modernized F-4E-2000 Terminators/Peace Icarus the Turks/Greeks have?
The Argies needed Kortana on their side flying one of those Mirages with respawn. Also, I was surprised not to see Matrix involved in this one. He must not have been available.
The RR Spey engines of 20,520 lbs thrust were used on the British F-4K/M because it was 25% more powerful and gave better performance for carrier operations. However they were limited to Mach 2.1 because of higher nozzle temperatures/
Sorry to bear bad news but that was the F22 unit not a single airframe. Blame mainstream media for the clickbait headlines XD “At Weapons System Evaluation Program 22.12, the 94th FS and 94th FGS loaded and employed 28 air-to-air missiles, which represents the most missiles loaded and employed by an F-22 unit, during the two-week long exercise,” Tech Sgt. Ceaira Tinsley, a 1st Fighter Wing spokesperson, told Task & Purpose. “All missiles were fired at aerial targets being flown by drones and the total value of all 28 missiles is approximately $14 million. As a cohesive team, the units flew more than 96 sorties.” 'It’s not clear what the exact missile loadout for these F-22 aircraft looked like.' That said the latest F-15EX has a new double hardpoint system for a crazy loadout. Manufacturer website: "Boeing, maker of the F-15EX, has previously advertised that the fighter can carry 22 air-to-air weapons."
Not finished watching so this comment might be stupid, but hey it helps Cap with youtube algorithms. The fuel tanks on the mirages make enough drag that when on Mirage 111O they could go supersonic.
A 1982 UK Phantom wing would have done their best Three Stooges impersonation as they screamed "I'll murderlize you!" and chucked supersonic destruction at the Argentine air and naval forces.
Overall, I think that no matter who won the battle, Argentine casualties would have been so bad that even if every British fighter was lost the Argentine Air Force would have been in no shape to oppose a British carrier task force after their invasion
When I was a lad I helped test the engines for these Phantoms. Man stand in a test cell with one of these on max re-heat and it shook the fillings in your teeth. I would have not been brave enough to sit between two of them. Could tell you loads about these engines. The Chinese brought 20 engines from RR in the 70s for an aircraft of their own. They were never seen again. I wonder where they went. Its also the engine used in the land speed car Thrust SSC of Richard Noble.
The British engine Phantom was the SPEY a more powerful jet engine with the "Crystal" rear turbine blades - they were hollow with pores on the leading edge - in use air entered the rotary and centrifuged out the pores to provide a continually cooled boundary layer across the blade - in practice this meant the white-hot gasses made contact with the compressed boundary layer, not the blade itself - this meant you could run the engine harder hence more power - interestingly the black THRUST SST land speed car used 2 of these engines for this very reason.
The FGR2 (F-4M) Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) wasn't that advanced. If I remember correctly it was the ARI18228/1which only gave three types of 'spokes' (solid, dashes or dots) to denote the enemy's radar band and a clock position for direction. Spoke length gave an approximation of received signal strength and therefore a very crude range indication. Certainly didn't have any symbology or ability to identify aircraft types. Two detectors (aka RF Heads) were mounted facing FWD and AFT in the rectangular housing on the top of the fin, but not present on the model used in this simulation.
It's interesting to speculate what British defences would have prevented an invasion, and what defences would the Argentinians be willing and capable of overcoming ? ( There was a risk of invasion detected in 1977 and the British sent some ships and a submarine, but I'm not sure if that was the reason nothing happened. )
Look up the 1973 f-4 phantom vs migs fight where 2 f4 took on 25 migs as their base was under attack , that would be a good battle fun , 2 teams vs 25 planes see who can shoot down more
This really puts into perspective how hard the UK government screwed up by trying to save money by transitioning the navy from CATOBAR carriers to STOVL and from proper naval fighters to Sea Harriers. If they had allowed the navy to replace the Centaur class with proper CATOBAR carriers (instead of making them downgrade them to STOVL and build the Invincible class as STOVL) then in the early 80s our carriers would have been carrying F-4s, F-14s and possibly even a naval variant of the Tornado, and Argentina wouldn't have dared touch the Falklands.
@@gregs7562 That's why it says possibly, It wasn't considered because there wasn't any UK carrier capable of launching one so they didn't bother with the R&D, if there had been they would have. Similar to how EF designed a naval Typhoon variant before the the decision was made on if the QE should have catapults or not, but obviously it never entered production as there was no carrier for it.
23 Squadron phantoms arrived after they sorted out the runway, a hanger and the RHAG, they were low vis grey. This was shortly after the war (or conflict as Maggie called it). One of the Phantoms was damaged at and around the arrestor hook, can't recall the tail number and my photo's were taken with a Kodak 110, using film with 24 pictures only of course. The quality is quite bad when zooming in. The best thing I saw? On fire picket one night I watched one take off on full reheat into a clear starlit sky until it too looked like a star, a fast moving one of course.
@@ivorharden Yeah, it was great, although they did hold us up sometimes from crossing the runway. Three for definite based on my photo's and not my memory, but I think there would have been four. There are quite a few resources on the Internet to discover more, pictures and video from back then.
The AIM 9L is the game changer in all of these battles. Would the UK have adapted them in time for the Phantoms? At best they would have had a limited supply.
With the recent deployment of Chinese stealth aircraft to the contested Indian border perhaps a video comparing the 6 J20s and 8 J10 incursion against defending Indian Rafaels.
The F-4M is very different because it had Spey Turbofans, not J-79s. The AIM-9L was also not in British inventory until the British Fleet until it was ready to sail. The only AIM-9 in Service was the AIM-9G. The British begged for the Lima sidewinder and finally got them released,
Usually i find your battles pretty well-balanced and unbiased. This one is more from la-la-land than usual. The Argy side i find well within the realm of possibility, except the missing AWACS support. They are unlikely to fly their entire airforce into hostile territory without knowing whats ahead. But the british... Too far fetched: They construct a whole airfield (including required infrastructure like fuel facilities, pipelines etc) in short time after finding out of the plans? Think not.
It would have been more realistic to just have one squadron of F-4Ms based at Stanley. And it's also very unlikely that the Argentines would send their entire air force all at once. Probably half at most.
Did the Argentinians even have an AWACS aircraft in the 1980s they don’t even have one now also Argentina wouldn’t send almost there entire airforce to take the islands and also wouldn’t be able to coordinate that many aircraft doing a time on target strike without atleast one AWACs aircraft or some ship based coordination centre
@@grimreapers : It seemed that the Argentine aircraft were really struggling to get lock ons for their missiles. Being older and more limited missiles, they would take more skill to get a lock with. I wonder if boosting the AI skill level for the Argentine side would make a difference there.
i feel the UK was robbed by never having its Phantom's drop bombs in anger. question, is everything about the Phantom obsolete? I think some countries still fly them as trainer craft. the only thing i love about them is their shape. could a manufacturer make a new next generation aircraft which is the same sort of shape or do modern computers reveal its full of poor aerodynamic shapes?
Cap hear me out but how about you test if A-A missiles can be intercepted by patriot systems or navel protection system to protect an awacs from a hypersonic A-A missile
Just a note May 17th 2024 CMDR Sharkey Ward commander of 801 Sqn in the Falklands War passed away so this is fairly timely... good video all round though...
Love the RAF livery. 43 Squadron nicknamed the "Fighting Cocks". Sums up GR perfectly hehehe.
Based at RAF Leuchars at the time. Ah nostalgia.
@@MrTendentious Yep, went to Leuchars in about 1984 on Summer Camp with the ATC. 43 Sqn and 111 Sqn were there at the time. Had a flight in the Search and Rescue Wessex chopper over St Andrews. Brilliant.
The Fighting Cock-ups! 😂. (Just kidding). That would be sorta like the Blacksheep.
My father flew Spitfires in North Africa and Italy with 43 Squadron.
Aaaand demonetized
Really pleased to see proper attention given to the actual ordnance used for these reenactments. A number of creators seem perfectly happy to use 1980’s or 1990’s AAM’s to try and recreate a 1960’s or 1970’s battle.
But is it ?
At the time of the Falklands, the RAF Phantoms would be equipped not with Sparrows but the far more capable and reliable Skyflash. Not much wrong with the Sparrow air-frame and warhead, but its guidance was rather lacking.
Skyflash was a big jump forwards with an inverse monopulse seeker.
I spent 18 years on it through R&D then production. A fairly good bit of kit for its day.
Turns out “Who would win- planes with lots of longer range missiles that can shoot at stuff in front of them or planes with only a few short range missiles that can only shoot at stuff from directly behind them?” isn’t as much of a mystery as you might think.
that and sparrow m is a pretty good missile in general, much more reliable than the older e and f models. same case with the aim9l. 1980s is a time of new small and powerful chips revolutionize the avionics on planes and weapons.
I lived with the RAF F4’s 19&92 sqdns, at RAF Wildenrath in 1976-79 so I loved this Video many happy memories of them, including bein at school and a scramble happened the f4 went out then came back across the base low level supersonic smashed almost all the windows in the school, and another standing about 200’ back from an F4 as it took off, the heat and the noise was immense, the second was thanks to having an ATC WO as a father.
It must be remembered that the Dagger's were basically dumbed down Mirage V's and intended purely for ground attack (limited self defence AAM use), so they had their RADAR's removed to give them slightly more carry capacity and would have to rely on ground controllers or the Mirage III's to give them interception vectors etc.
Always loved the Phantom, but I'm soo old, one of my fondest memories is having a Starfighter buzz over my head at Greenham Common in the early 70's 😂
It's a real sexy plane isn't it? It's like the tomcat. There's just something about it that I love. Probably the movies/TV shows I watched as a kid
I was a flightline armourer on 31Sqdn in Germany in the mid ‘70s and I was also able to get up close to Starfighters when we were on inter NATO Air Force deployments to Decimomannu Air Base, Cagliari in Sardinia.
Stand out features (although they didn’t stand out very far in comparison to other jet fighters) were the stubby wings, the leading edge of which were nearly razor sharp which was different from normal wing cross section. The other thing that was slightly disconcerting, was how easily they wobbled about when a bit of my body weight was applied.
The F104, with much longer wings for high altitude cruising was modification for the U2 reconnaissance aircraft.
From what I understand the decision to switch to the Rolls royce engines in the RAF/RN Phantoms was both for logistical reasons and because the R-R engines had much better low end acceleration; which would help greatly with small carrier operations.
I also understand it is regarded as a superior engine option in almost all regards; fuel efficiency included.
Yeah they were more powerful at takeoff and low speeds, plus it was easier to get spare parts. The only problem was that the RR engines needed the fuselage and intakes to be made bigger to accommodate the larger engines.
@@ivorharden The other problem was that the fuselage was fatter and had more drag. The Spey was good at low to medium altitudes but at higher altitudes the J-79 was superior. Teh RAF actually leased ex USN F-4Js to be stationed in the Falklands post war
I think the RN also wanted to use the Spey because it was already in use for their Buccaneers, and it would simplify maintenance & logistics.
@@michaeldenesyk3195 the 15 F4J were actually used by 74 squadron at RAF Wattisham.
@@ivorharden the engine itself is not that much bigger than the J-79, but it uses a LOT more air... IIRC the J-79 is around 170 cubic feet per and the Spey is about 210 CF: The real killer was how the RN wanted them angled IN the fuselage! They wanted them angled such that they would give a bit more OOOMPH getting off the carrier deck so like a 20 degree angle and a HUGE front wheel strut to increase the angle of attack was all to make it easier to launch off the smaller carriers of the RN.
What limited top end speed was budget... exceed M 1.9 and you are going to have to replace the canopy more often because it will tend to get cloudy from the high temps. As I understand it the US had the same problem but deeper pockets so F it lets go fast!
British Phantom’s used Spey engines as they were better accelerating at low level, therefore better suited to the smaller British carriers. However, it was slower overall and suffered at high altitude when compared to the F4J (the US contemporary model).
It was a total of 185mph slower at altitude, due to it being slightly bigger than the US F4E & later J model because of its Spey engines. That being because the RAF Phantoms unlike the the E & J models were not purely designed as interceptors & lacked their wing slats & an internal gun.
Not necessarily because the Spey’s could be tuned by technicians for high or low altitude. The carrier aircraft were all low altitude tuned but the RAF phantoms could vary dramatically depending on the doctrine of the squadron. Like the Lightnings. Which all had 1 perfect race horse interceptor and a bunch of dog aircraft.
There were training squadrons with dog aircraft with no tuning so they couldn’t kill the engines.
But there were certainly performance outliers for German based squadrons
The Spey’s didn’t leave a 10 mile long trail of black smoke like the Spam Cans did.
Shocked the blob didn't do more against the phantoms. Seemed the brits managed to get around it by thinning out the blob with front aspect missiles.
Ultimately, your conclusions were right. You even gave them a slight edge with Mirage F1s and the fact the Daggers that Argentina had would've been far worse at A2A than the equivalent mirages.
But overall, nice to see Phantoms doing Phantom things - get high, fast and lob missiles. Glorious
Fighting Cocks……they were based at Leuchars, I think……I used to visit their archery club when I went on holiday to Fife as a boy…….great bunch of guys…….
Can't wait for an all-female British fighter unit, I bet they will come up with an equally ambiguous name. Or maybe an unambiguous one, say, fighting c....
Glad to hear you back Cap!
Bloody good show old boy!
Hi Cap. Correction We have only 2 KC130. 7 was the total of C130. Remember the Mirage III and Dagger can not refuel.
Roger, thanks for the correction!
Before I watch this video, it's something I've always thought about. If we still had HMS ARK ROYAL & EAGLE, with Phantoms and Buccaneers, would Argentina, even have invaded in the first place?
Possibly. The Argentine leaders thought that the UK wasn't serious about the Falklands back then (the Tory government actually wanted to make a Hong Kong style 99-year lease arrangement with Argentina).
The liberal left always wants to cut the military, claiming they’re too expensive and reasoning that having weapons causes others to attack them. Then, when they get themselves into war, they end up spending 4 times as much and getting a bunch of their people killed because they weren’t prepared for a war.
I think Eagle was gone so many years earlier (1970?) that you can’t really bring her into the “what if?” Falklands debate here. That leaves The Ark on her own and the question whether (at full load of 24 Phantoms and 12 Buccs) it would’ve been enough to be a deterrent, or whether she would’ve fared much better overall in combat than our two small carriers did with a similar number of Harriers between them?
Although of little deterrent value, the biggest advantage IMO would’ve undoubtedly been AEW aircraft, although how effective the Gannets ancient 1940s era system was by the ‘80s I don’t personally know…
Loving the RAF Leuchars 43Sqn liveries
Wow - truly, the light quality in DCS is fantastic...
I believe the RR Speys were also added due to the fact that the UK government cancelled all the home grown aircraft projects and needed aircraft. In an attempt to keep some business to the UK companies they selected to use Hawker Siddley to produce most of the UK phantoms and RR to power them to help British aviation industries
Indeed and the Spey's were needed for carrier operations
No surprise. We buy aircraft off the yanks such as Apache and chinooks, throw out their crap engines and fit RR engines instead.
More reliable, faster, better range, higher celings and more fuel efficient.
The Royal navy wanted the spey engine because it had better takeoff and low altitude performance and in fact had slightly better fuel consumption than the J-59. It also wanted speys as they had spare parts compatibility with the buccaneers already in service. The british government wanted the spey as it reduced the overall import cost of the phantom thus improving its trade deficit compared to j-59 powered planes.
J79
@@ga9633 fingertip dyslexia lol
Simba asking Dark to save him. Has there been a blow to the head? Roll the dice on which one gets killed on that one!
hahahah I know I was rolling the dice that one.
This is utterly beautiful, only watching this today and what a way to finish the week, started off at Duxford summer airshow watching the Dakota’s get loaded up with airborne paratroopers to daily spitfires flying over me, to watching this.
Brilliant
I was stationed at MPA in the mid eighties & saw the F-4's of 1435 flt in action doing mock attacks on the rapier sites & the base , flight of two would always escort the arrival & departure of the "Timmy's" have the photo's of them seeing me off on my run home . Great fun on this sim Reapers😂.
They always send up fighters to do a vid I believe in case something is trying to slip in either by false signal or even hiding under the real aircraft, masking its radar return.
Analysis: Argentina lost not only its ability to support an invasion of the Falklands, but is ability to defend mainland Argentina. I’d be curious at he result of the UK only had the one squadron of F4s Port Stanley could have supported in real life.
I love how no matter the scenario, the Argies always get absolutely ruined, even when helped with skill levels they could never hope to have.
So basically for the cost of 4 Phantoms the RAF would have shot down basically the entire Argentinian Air Force.
Also that's 13-1, which is basically in line with what the USAF found (10 to 12-1) the Phantom to be capable of in skilled hands.
Why, on that takeoff, is Jester saying, “You’re going too fast. is gonna bust your balls for that!” ?? WTF? 😂. Is that a bug?
‘CO (commanding officer) is gonna bust your balls” - it’s a feature to add pilot banter realism 😂
Argentine air force had 7 x C130H Transport aircraft (with 1 shot down) and only 2 KC 130H tankers in April 1982 which seriously limited their ability to surge large strikes greater than 8 aircraft but then the British didn't have the worlds longest hallway either (RAF Mount St Pleasant) so have at it.
Thanks for correction.
@@grimreapers No worries and I was not expecting that result
I would love to see Heatblur model an F4-K
+1
It was a damn shame that the RN didn't have the Ark Royal and the Phantom and possible Buccaneer wings on board. Then again I'm pretty sure I've read that the Argies likely wouldn't have tried had that been the case.
They were making signs to try around 1975 or 76. My dad was in Zulu in the Caribbean and they were told to store up, refuel and then go to an Atlantic r/v position. Turns out they were going to meet up with the first part of the task force which was being rapidly made ready - we still had enough ships to assemble and send a force in just about 10 days. Ark Royal and Hermes were to be part of it. Phantoms, Buccs, Gannets - a decent air wing. Someone in Argentinian government pointed this out, also pointing out that they'd make one hell of a mess of Argentinian bases, dockyards, Buenos Aires etc!! They did the wise thing and backed away. Then I got to fight the buggers in 82 instead of my dad in 76!!
@@nicholasmoore2590 Thx for that reply. Didn’t know any of that.
@@nicholasmoore2590 Interesting, I'd heard there was sabre rattling going on but for the politicians to pull out of the Falklands anyway, even the research vessel, you have to wonder what Thatcher was thinking? Thanks for doing your duty, I'd have been 3 at the time? Time flies!
@@s3p4kner Thatcher was all about minimising government including the military. She was actually on her way out before regaining political capital with a win in the Falklands
Remember when the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels all flew F4s? Wingtip to wingtip in a freightliner.
As for interceptors, Genie nuclear tipped AA missile were evaluated at Warton on the EEL and were fitted to one side on the T5 version.
Also the Buccaneer's toss delivery of Red Beard nuclear bombs was evaluated by the RAF for the both the Javelin and EEL Lightning, where they would release a nuclear bomb against oncoming Soviet bombers.
The development of the Red Top missile eventually gave the Lighting a head on capability and some sources suggest that some Red Tops contained instant sunshine.
Always wondered about F4 what if's during the 82 war and if they had made the Atlantic conveyor a Harrier carrier for self defence with a pair perhaps and CIWS defo would have been a bonus on her.
97-5 k/d is fucking insane
I'd love to see the same battle, but Argentina using Mig-23 with their most modern missiles.
Mig-23 was supposed to be a better Phantom killer than Mig-21 but their radar and weapons took too long to develop.
Remember the spey was also used in the buccaneer, similar to the a4/a6 having the same engine. Fewer spare parts
Another great video Cap
Pre-watch prediction: Argentina will lose so many aircraft that, even if they technically “win” they will be unable to defend their invasion force from the UK’s response, or even defend Argentina itself.
I remember seeing RAAF mirages flying past at air shows. Beautiful plane.
Would be interesting to do a what if scenario where the British and Argentinian carriers clash…
"Save me baby jesus Dark" .. that killed me!
F4 is like a coal rolling F150. Great aircraft though. The turbofan engine conversion was a great idea, I need to read up however it went in practice.
36 F-4 each with 4 SARH Sparrows, 144 missiles. 97 inbound bogeys.
Maths kinda does say it'll go one way.
Sparrows are pretty pants though.
Sparrows performed really well today.
I believe the RAF f-4s had a taller nose strut to assist with a higher angle of attack for their carrier ops.
Yes, the previously Royal Navy FG.1s had the big nose struts. Though the FGR.2s of the Royal Air Force didn't come with them.
That was called the "extra extensible nose gear" was a Royal Navy requirement (FG1)as you described, wasnt "required" for RAF land based operations
Very interesting Cap. Many thanks. I was an RAF-mad 10 year old at the time. It was great to see al those aircraft on the TV time and frankly, a ripping yarn for a young lad. Even so, it was a big deal and I knew that at the time. It may seem like a fairly small deal if you're not British, but certainly to me and my friends of a similar age, it certainly wasn't and isn't a small deal.
That was fun!
The Argies will never take the Falklands.
21 seconds ago??? Feeling speedy. Keep up the good content Cap, best wishes for your voice.
Sky flash sounds way cooler than Sparrow, let's be honest
Agreed
Sounds like something from Thunderbirds...
its not just the logistics, unless fighting a desperate survival battle such as the RAF in the Battle of Britain, no country would commit all their assets and leave themselves defenceless even to 'friendly' neighbours.
Chile definitely wasn't friendly to Argentina in 1982.
Here's one I think might be interresting: could you try doing an alt-history version of the "Whiskey on the Rocks" incident, where the Soviet Union hadn't stopped. Could Sweden have stopped the Soviet forces from getting to the stranded submarine?
Next up for Could an RAF F-4M Phantom have won the Battle of Agincourt. I'm just curious if they'd be able to carry enough ordinance.
You'd need red arrows
I think Harry would of given his eye teeth for a couple of vickers guns.
How dare you suggest that the English needed help to win the Battle of Agincourt!
Hi Cap,
An idea for a mission: RAF of 1990 (or late cold war) vs. RAF of 2024.
It's a bit daft I know but it could be so much fun!!! I reckon the Phantoms could stand in well for Tornado F.3s as I don't think they're in DCS?
Anyway, wishing you and the team well!
If someone releases an F-4K/M mod, you'll have fun with that! No ECM pods, no countermeasures until after 1980 but a really good pulse-doppler radar for the time. AIM-9G (later AIM-9L) and AIM-7E-2 (replaced after 1978 with the excellent Skyflash).
VERY cool video, guys! A good ol' fashioned turkey shoot for the RAF!
I wonder if you guys can do a "test" of modernized F-4E-2000 Terminators/Peace Icarus the Turks/Greeks have?
The Argies needed Kortana on their side flying one of those Mirages with respawn. Also, I was surprised not to see Matrix involved in this one. He must not have been available.
The RR Spey engines of 20,520 lbs thrust were used on the British F-4K/M because it was 25% more powerful and gave better performance for carrier operations. However they were limited to Mach 2.1 because of higher nozzle temperatures/
There's some reporting that an F-22 was loaded with 28 missiles, a record. Could you run a scenario to show what an F-22 missile truck could do?
Sorry to bear bad news but that was the F22 unit not a single airframe. Blame mainstream media for the clickbait headlines XD
“At Weapons System Evaluation Program 22.12, the 94th FS and 94th FGS loaded and employed 28 air-to-air missiles, which represents the most missiles loaded and employed by an F-22 unit, during the two-week long exercise,” Tech Sgt. Ceaira Tinsley, a 1st Fighter Wing spokesperson, told Task & Purpose. “All missiles were fired at aerial targets being flown by drones and the total value of all 28 missiles is approximately $14 million. As a cohesive team, the units flew more than 96 sorties.”
'It’s not clear what the exact missile loadout for these F-22 aircraft looked like.'
That said the latest F-15EX has a new double hardpoint system for a crazy loadout. Manufacturer website: "Boeing, maker of the F-15EX, has previously advertised that the fighter can carry 22 air-to-air weapons."
OK
Not finished watching so this comment might be stupid, but hey it helps Cap with youtube algorithms.
The fuel tanks on the mirages make enough drag that when on Mirage 111O they could go supersonic.
A 1982 UK Phantom wing would have done their best Three Stooges impersonation as they screamed "I'll murderlize you!" and chucked supersonic destruction at the Argentine air and naval forces.
Dont ever forget the Rapier AA system and the Blowpipes that we used to knock them out of the sky
Alternate reality - General Belgrano still sinks.
oof
It was attacked by the HMS Sheffield, multi-role submarine!
"You know what would help you track phantom contacts?"
Best wishes on your health Cap. The guys are doing great but the vids just aren’t the same without you
Loving these F4 vids, very sexy. I thought you were all going to punch out after landing like you used to.
Ejecting crashes my game for some reason.
If you're going to carry cannon ammo you should simulate the weight and drag using a centre line fuel tank. Uk phantoms did not have internal guns.
Ah, I was unaware of this...
Simba always flies on autopilot.
only when im the one they are forming up on.
Overall, I think that no matter who won the battle, Argentine casualties would have been so bad that even if every British fighter was lost the Argentine Air Force would have been in no shape to oppose a British carrier task force after their invasion
"What's the best way to see if you're in burner guy's"
You can see your moustache growing 🧔🇬🇧💪
When I was a lad I helped test the engines for these Phantoms. Man stand in a test cell with one of these on max re-heat and it shook the fillings in your teeth. I would have not been brave enough to sit between two of them. Could tell you loads about these engines. The Chinese brought 20 engines from RR in the 70s for an aircraft of their own. They were never seen again. I wonder where they went. Its also the engine used in the land speed car Thrust SSC of Richard Noble.
F-4 Phantom - what a beast!
The British engine Phantom was the SPEY a more powerful jet engine with the "Crystal" rear turbine blades - they were hollow with pores on the leading edge - in use air entered the rotary and centrifuged out the pores to provide a continually cooled boundary layer across the blade - in practice this meant the white-hot gasses made contact with the compressed boundary layer, not the blade itself - this meant you could run the engine harder hence more power - interestingly the black THRUST SST land speed car used 2 of these engines for this very reason.
Spey in F-4M didn’t smoke like the F4E but you probably know that already?
The FGR2 (F-4M) Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) wasn't that advanced. If I remember correctly it was the ARI18228/1which only gave three types of 'spokes' (solid, dashes or dots) to denote the enemy's radar band and a clock position for direction. Spoke length gave an approximation of received signal strength and therefore a very crude range indication. Certainly didn't have any symbology or ability to identify aircraft types. Two detectors (aka RF Heads) were mounted facing FWD and AFT in the rectangular housing on the top of the fin, but not present on the model used in this simulation.
It's interesting to speculate what British defences would have prevented an invasion, and what defences would the Argentinians be willing and capable of overcoming ? ( There was a risk of invasion detected in 1977 and the British sent some ships and a submarine, but I'm not sure if that was the reason nothing happened. )
It would be interesting to see if the F-4s could stop a raid aimed at taking out their airfields.
No One's mentioning that we just watched a GR Take Off without any crash and burns ?
ruclips.net/video/ONZDS0wCq4s/видео.htmlsi=VeSCLBqpGMQsR0MY&t=2098
@@grimreapers I Blinked and missed it !
If we had the old Ark Royal with Phantoms and Bucks. There wouldnt have been a war.
Indeed and the war resulted in saving the Royal Navy and keeping it relevant.
Look up the 1973 f-4 phantom vs migs fight where 2 f4 took on 25 migs as their base was under attack , that would be a good battle fun , 2 teams vs 25 planes see who can shoot down more
This really puts into perspective how hard the UK government screwed up by trying to save money by transitioning the navy from CATOBAR carriers to STOVL and from proper naval fighters to Sea Harriers. If they had allowed the navy to replace the Centaur class with proper CATOBAR carriers (instead of making them downgrade them to STOVL and build the Invincible class as STOVL) then in the early 80s our carriers would have been carrying F-4s, F-14s and possibly even a naval variant of the Tornado, and Argentina wouldn't have dared touch the Falklands.
Naval tornado ? Never even thought about. Wrong undercarriage, nothing like strong enough. Jaguar yes & the French even trialled it but Tornado no.
@@gregs7562 That's why it says possibly, It wasn't considered because there wasn't any UK carrier capable of launching one so they didn't bother with the R&D, if there had been they would have. Similar to how EF designed a naval Typhoon variant before the the decision was made on if the QE should have catapults or not, but obviously it never entered production as there was no carrier for it.
Loving the RAF liveries
23 Squadron phantoms arrived after they sorted out the runway, a hanger and the RHAG, they were low vis grey. This was shortly after the war (or conflict as Maggie called it). One of the Phantoms was damaged at and around the arrestor hook, can't recall the tail number and my photo's were taken with a Kodak 110, using film with 24 pictures only of course. The quality is quite bad when zooming in. The best thing I saw? On fire picket one night I watched one take off on full reheat into a clear starlit sky until it too looked like a star, a fast moving one of course.
@BobH809 So cool that you were able to see these aircraft 'in their prime'. How many Phantoms were stationed on the islands?
@@ivorharden Yeah, it was great, although they did hold us up sometimes from crossing the runway. Three for definite based on my photo's and not my memory, but I think there would have been four. There are quite a few resources on the Internet to discover more, pictures and video from back then.
That and the bigger fuselage cause an area rule.problem with tranrsonic drag
The AIM 9L is the game changer in all of these battles.
Would the UK have adapted them in time for the Phantoms? At best they would have had a limited supply.
A well delivered ass whoopin'.
Sadly, AI failed poor Simba. It'll be the death of us all.
I've seen two videos now where the interlock is switched off. I dont get that. Is it required?
With the recent deployment of Chinese stealth aircraft to the contested Indian border perhaps a video comparing the 6 J20s and 8 J10 incursion against defending Indian Rafaels.
Great video
I want to see F-86 Saber verses ME-262
I wondering If is possible to lock on AGM-65 on enemy jet in flight and get air to air kill with it?
Splendid
The British Phantoms would have been wearing a 1200 rnd 20mm Vulcan gun pod. 6,000 rnds/min gatling gun of doom.
The F-4M is very different because it had Spey Turbofans, not J-79s. The AIM-9L was also not in British inventory until the British Fleet until it was ready to sail. The only AIM-9 in Service was the AIM-9G. The British begged for the Lima sidewinder and finally got them released,
Not true. The RAF had around 100 Limas in the UK and Germany at the time of the invasion.
@@jameswoollard84 Noyice I said the RN, not the RAF.
These comments are quieter than a mirages crew room....
That was like clubbing baby seals 😂
I hate that metaphor (simile).
Usually i find your battles pretty well-balanced and unbiased. This one is more from la-la-land than usual.
The Argy side i find well within the realm of possibility, except the missing AWACS support. They are unlikely to fly their entire airforce into hostile territory without knowing whats ahead.
But the british... Too far fetched: They construct a whole airfield (including required infrastructure like fuel facilities, pipelines etc) in short time after finding out of the plans? Think not.
It would have been more realistic to just have one squadron of F-4Ms based at Stanley. And it's also very unlikely that the Argentines would send their entire air force all at once. Probably half at most.
Did the Argentinians even have an AWACS aircraft in the 1980s they don’t even have one now also Argentina wouldn’t send almost there entire airforce to take the islands and also wouldn’t be able to coordinate that many aircraft doing a time on target strike without atleast one AWACs aircraft or some ship based coordination centre
@@jameson1239 : No the Argentines did not have AWACS in 1982.
When I made the mission I assumed it would be a 50/50 result roughly, I had no idea the Phantoms were going to do this well.
@@grimreapers : It seemed that the Argentine aircraft were really struggling to get lock ons for their missiles. Being older and more limited missiles, they would take more skill to get a lock with. I wonder if boosting the AI skill level for the Argentine side would make a difference there.
The Brit F4 had the RR Spay that was more powerful especially at low level.
Can you re run the sim with HMS Hermes Cat's re activated?
Didnt the F4s also have 30mm cannons too
i feel the UK was robbed by never having its Phantom's drop bombs in anger.
question, is everything about the Phantom obsolete? I think some countries still fly them as trainer craft. the only thing i love about them is their shape. could a manufacturer make a new next generation aircraft which is the same sort of shape or do modern computers reveal its full of poor aerodynamic shapes?
If Ark Royal (R09) and Eagle (R05) with F4s and Buccaneers had not been scraped in the 70's, I doubt Argentina would have invaded the Falklands.
Would their invasion fleet be at sea during this battle?
just a thought, I bet if the brits used turbo prop planes, they would still beat the the attackers
Cap hear me out but how about you test if A-A missiles can be intercepted by patriot systems or navel protection system to protect an awacs from a hypersonic A-A missile
Will try but I doubt will work in game.
could you have not used the mirage 3 by vsn?
Yes but the FM is a bit borked, can only make mach 1.1