Hey there - thank you for the subtitles, even though I can understand you just fine. It is always nice, though. Your content is amazing! Loved your recent collaboration with CuriousMarc. Keep up the amazing videos!
Good analysis! The gearbox looks like it contains a worm drive inside in addition to the gears that we see. It would have been interesting to see on the oscilloscope the mechanical bandwidth of the entire device -- how fast it accelerates and moves in response to a step input. 2:20 While the missile is in the launch tube, the wings are folded against the body of the missile. Once the missile is out, a pair of pyrotechnic pushers kick the wings open, and after that the wings stay in the unfolded position shown here. (There is a latch inside.)
Yes, that's what surprises me about the servo mechanism: it seems like it would be slower than some kind of direct drive, and with backlash, and mechanical/maintenance complexity. But perhaps I'm underestimating the operating regime: the vane is surprisingly strong/heavy and appears to be designed for significant deflection. It's also interesting to think about the engineering mindset for a one-way device. Yes, you want it to work, and yes you want to be able to store and ship the device, but in some sense, efficient engineering should incorporate the fact that it'll be used exactly once...
@@markhahn0 Прямой привод не обеспечит нужного усилия для отклонения крыла и его удержавния. Если бы там был прямой привод то на скорости 1-1,5 км/с , да и на гораздо меньшей тоже, крыло бы вращалось от набегающего воздуха во все стороны, кроме тех положений, в которые надо.
It's amazing that stepper motors have the torque and speed to achieve this - It hit home to me how damn fast these things actually go when he pointed out the paint and metal was discolored from aerodynamic heating.. brief research suggests about Mach 4 - faster than a rifle bullet :O for those trying to visualize what the vane's actually actually steering, they weigh around 1000kg and range of 150km, so it would have a flight time of about 2 minutes to steer it onto a target.
Good Morning Michel, as per usual, a very interesting Video! Something im curious about would beif you can tell what material the tip of the Controlsurface is made from. The bulbous tip seems to be bolted on to the titanium fin as a counterweight, since this is for preventing control surface fluttering at very high speeds its very likely a large part of the mass of this control surface. Can you tell if it is Steel, Les, Tungsten or maybe even something more exotic?
Whoever designed the circuit itself was obviously reasonably competent, if old-fashioned. They probably built it on a bread-board, and debugged everything to make sure it performed according to the requirements of the contract. Once that was done, they gave the circuit diagram to a technician, to do the layout and the mechanical design of the board. That person was probably not very experienced, so they just used automatic placement and routing features of whatever bootleg EDA software they had. And that's it. The result worked, and nobody who was competent to review it bothered to do so.
@@cogoid Such rockets survive many and rigorous tests. Interesting that idiots are amused by “bad routing” while being ignorant of the development and production process.
No sophisticated tools is required, just a good continuity tester with sharp needles to pierce the conformal coating and patience. Bad routing extends the reverse engineering time.
Maybe the bad routing is actually a feature? The layout of the board allows for a great viewing angle for every single part. PCBs seem like they're pretty observable before putting components on, so they can inspect a more complicated PCB easily, then inspect the individual solder joints with a high degree of confidence?
Stupid question. How does the system avoid excessive Gs? The reason I’m asking is because that leading edge counterweight is far larger than necessary to balance the fin or act as inertial dampening. Older aircraft like the F-4 phantom have counterweights in the controls to increase load forces during high G maneuvers, to avoid turning too hard. If the electronics don’t have any way to moderate G loads, it’s probably safe to assume the leading edge weight is so oversized to provide moderation of G forces, in addition to acting as mass dampener. Do you see anything in the electronics that would limit the G forces? Or is the counterweight the only thing moderating force?
Very interesting. The electronics is too strong as it stands the explosion and the Post handling. Still it would be interesting to see ...4.. seconds clear still pictures, where we can see all the texts in the chips and other components with their types & manufacturing weeks & manufacture labels. But very much thanks even like this.
Great video as always, awesome that you got the thing working! At first I was surprised by the relatively modest position control bandwidth, but considering the size and purpose of the tornado missile it actually makes sense.
I didn't expect it to be quite so quick though in hindsight I probably should have considering it's use case. Very interesting as usual. Thanks for the content.
@ yeah, totally fair, and obviously it's plenty fast enough, just imagined it being faster for the maneuvering requirements of a short range interceptor.
10:13 - I wonder if Ken Shirriff or anyone else doing decapping/analysis of chips would be interested to take a look at those Russian made opamps / other ICs .. Is it really all Russian made or maybe it's just Russian packaged foreign silicon?
There are plenty of videos from Russian microelectronics factories. They look very similar to older Intel factories, and use practically the same equipment. Definitely capable of producing OpAmps and small logic chips in any numbers needed for the missiles. A small factory without any automation at all makes one million chips a year at $30/chip.
@@cogoid not arguing they cannot make those. But given Russia's corruption problems I'd be curious to check if they're not buying bare dies, packaging and pocketing the difference.
Вы пишите чушь. СССР, а сейчас и РФ выпускают для военной техники ПЛИС, микроконтроллеры и процесорные наборы. Этого достаточно, чтобы сделать технику которая может управлять от атомной станции до ракеты. Но если вы посмотрите украинскую или европейскую пропаганду, то да чипы они берут из микроволновок😂
Hello, rookie here. Could someone please explain why analog control is used here? It seems that the rocket system ia relative new around 2014, why not use a microcontroller to acheive this servo control?
As we say in France « pourquoi faire simple quand on peut faire compliqué? ». What can be the advantage to use a microcontroller ? Risk of failure is much more important. As in nuclear power plant for example, programmable devices are generally prohibited, analog control is common.
@@cogoid I'd really love some background info about how they design this kind of stuff. This "somewhat less competent" approach to PCB design surprised me quite a bit after watching many teardowns and reverse engineering videos about all kinds of soviet/ru aviation and mil equipment. I have seen a few things that could be done in a better way, but never this kind of "student who has no clue, no motivation, no experience bodges his way through until the thing somehow works and then a superior doesn't give a sh... and signs off on it without having a closer look" - thing. I mean, placing the passive components of an analog filter so far away from the active part is ridiculous, that's just asking for trouble. I was honestly thinking what could be a sound reason for doing it this way on purpose. Making reverse engineering a bit harder? Using the stray inductance of the long traces in the circuit? Maybe it works better if the circuit oscillates a little bit?
Hello, super travail comme toujours, dommage que cette super techno soit employée sur des armes plutôt que pour améliorer la vie des terriens.... Bonnes fêtes de fin d'année.
@@kurtprosvet7533agreed. Most military equipment use proven, reliable, old stuff. high tech, if any, is to be found in the guiding part. High speed processing (image processing for the most sophisticated ones) Here, for the aileron control, 30 years old op amps are good enough. 😊
Ракетка свежая, буквально в прошлом году с конвеера. Суровые замороженные навсегда пенсии Емель и сурово обесценивающаяся рублемасса на сберегательных вкладах 🤣
@@ИмяФамилия-у4м9ч да, в рублях цены не только на газ поднимутся. Автомобиль уже стоит несколько миллионов рублей. А про квартиры лучше и не вспоминать 😂😂😂😂
Look at Russia's space flight. Do you think this was made on western chips? The West can't even come close to building missiles that have the same capabilities. What should Russia do with Western chips that don't even exist for Russia's requirements?
@@Phantom-rb8yv are you serious? Most of sophisticated russian rockets using fpga from Altera or Xilinx for calculation... For controlling wings you can use standard electronics... The engineering level on this video can be reproduced by avarage electronics student.
Can they send the whole missile to you for full review and reverse engineering? I mean they have tons of them in nearly perfect shape because in most cases Russians use Tornado-S with cluster munition. So after release of sub munitions the missile is inert and keeps almost unharmed after landing. Looks like they massively disassemble and sell them by pieces. What a waste of cool toys!
Do similar shells produced in the USA, Germany, etc. use some previously unknown, transcendental technologies? 😂 These are standard solutions for standard mass-produced ammunition. These systems are identical everywhere.
Russia is a mix of ancient soviet tech currently made in Belarus("Integral") and Western/Chinese chip and put together by western tech on western software .
Your audio quality is atrocious, you need a better audio setup. It's picking up every other noise better than your voice (and your accent isn't helping either)
Нашему иностранному разборщику все не так - теперь понимаешь трассировка и расположение элементов на печатной плате не правильное. Видать Пикад ломаный у этих русских. Одно радует чипы не из унитазов и холодильников.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey there - thank you for the subtitles, even though I can understand you just fine. It is always nice, though. Your content is amazing! Loved your recent collaboration with CuriousMarc. Keep up the amazing videos!
I am very disappointed that the "meow" wasn't in the subtitles.
This error is corrected !
You are the most badass electronic engineers on RUclips. Keep up the good work you do sir!
Thank you very much for explanation, motion control of this wing is based on PWM as like the traditional RC models !
another great video Michel, cheers :)
Amazing work as always!
Good analysis! The gearbox looks like it contains a worm drive inside in addition to the gears that we see. It would have been interesting to see on the oscilloscope the mechanical bandwidth of the entire device -- how fast it accelerates and moves in response to a step input.
2:20 While the missile is in the launch tube, the wings are folded against the body of the missile. Once the missile is out, a pair of pyrotechnic pushers kick the wings open, and after that the wings stay in the unfolded position shown here. (There is a latch inside.)
I was wondering why it was able to hinge around the missile axis! Thanks for that input, makes a lot of sense.
Was wondering how the fin folding arrangement worked, thanks!
Yes, that's what surprises me about the servo mechanism: it seems like it would be slower than some kind of direct drive, and with backlash, and mechanical/maintenance complexity. But perhaps I'm underestimating the operating regime: the vane is surprisingly strong/heavy and appears to be designed for significant deflection.
It's also interesting to think about the engineering mindset for a one-way device. Yes, you want it to work, and yes you want to be able to store and ship the device, but in some sense, efficient engineering should incorporate the fact that it'll be used exactly once...
@@cogoid interesting, thanks.
@@markhahn0 Прямой привод не обеспечит нужного усилия для отклонения крыла и его удержавния. Если бы там был прямой привод то на скорости 1-1,5 км/с , да и на гораздо меньшей тоже, крыло бы вращалось от набегающего воздуха во все стороны, кроме тех положений, в которые надо.
It's amazing that stepper motors have the torque and speed to achieve this - It hit home to me how damn fast these things actually go when he pointed out the paint and metal was discolored from aerodynamic heating.. brief research suggests about Mach 4 - faster than a rifle bullet :O for those trying to visualize what the vane's actually actually steering, they weigh around 1000kg and range of 150km, so it would have a flight time of about 2 minutes to steer it onto a target.
This unit uses a conventional DC motor.
well, wikipedia says 120 km and 250 kg. and it's relatively recent (service since about 2020).
10:02 - always thought this kind of equipment had aura of next level engineering. It's nice to see it uncovered! 😬
I heard a cat meow. Show the cat🐈
2,43 meow
Second that!
Third
Fourth
they cant be trusted with missiles.
Awesome! Merry Christmas to you!
Super travail! Très intéressant!
2:43 I can hear your supervisor offering his thoughts on the matter
😺
what gets me is that there's an edit there too. just pets being required, or was the bottom of the food bowl visible?
Great job!
Thanks for interesting content.
Gute Arbeit Danke
Good Morning Michel,
as per usual, a very interesting Video!
Something im curious about would beif you can tell what material the tip of the Controlsurface is made from. The bulbous tip seems to be bolted on to the titanium fin as a counterweight, since this is for preventing control surface fluttering at very high speeds its very likely a large part of the mass of this control surface.
Can you tell if it is Steel, Les, Tungsten or maybe even something more exotic?
Thank you very much for your explanations. any idea about the "crazy" routing?
Whoever designed the circuit itself was obviously reasonably competent, if old-fashioned. They probably built it on a bread-board, and debugged everything to make sure it performed according to the requirements of the contract. Once that was done, they gave the circuit diagram to a technician, to do the layout and the mechanical design of the board. That person was probably not very experienced, so they just used automatic placement and routing features of whatever bootleg EDA software they had. And that's it. The result worked, and nobody who was competent to review it bothered to do so.
This is a servo controller for a relatively large mechanical device. Overall bandwidth is most likely
@@cogoid Such rockets survive many and rigorous tests.
Interesting that idiots are amused by “bad routing” while being ignorant of the development and production process.
Very beautiful dc motor and gears
Wow, pretty cool.
how are you doing reverse engineering of board? manualy by multimeter or some sophisticated tools?
No sophisticated tools is required, just a good continuity tester with sharp needles to pierce the conformal coating and patience. Bad routing extends the reverse engineering time.
Maybe the bad routing is actually a feature? The layout of the board allows for a great viewing angle for every single part. PCBs seem like they're pretty observable before putting components on, so they can inspect a more complicated PCB easily, then inspect the individual solder joints with a high degree of confidence?
Stupid question. How does the system avoid excessive Gs? The reason I’m asking is because that leading edge counterweight is far larger than necessary to balance the fin or act as inertial dampening. Older aircraft like the F-4 phantom have counterweights in the controls to increase load forces during high G maneuvers, to avoid turning too hard. If the electronics don’t have any way to moderate G loads, it’s probably safe to assume the leading edge weight is so oversized to provide moderation of G forces, in addition to acting as mass dampener. Do you see anything in the electronics that would limit the G forces? Or is the counterweight the only thing moderating force?
Very interesting. The electronics is too strong as it stands the explosion and the Post handling. Still it would be interesting to see ...4.. seconds clear still pictures, where we can see all the texts in the chips and other components with their types & manufacturing weeks & manufacture labels. But very much thanks even like this.
You can see clear pictures of the board in the last page of the schematics. Link is in the description.
If it's a cluster bombs missile, the main body does not explode, it just falls to the ground after releasing the payload.
@@lelabodemichel5162Thank You very much. Now I know that. If my eyes saw correctly, one microchip capsule was labelled 2439 i.e. 2024 week 39 !?
@@ivekuukkeli2156 Correct
Probably got shot down or crashed. Much less force
amazing content, really.
Great video as always, awesome that you got the thing working! At first I was surprised by the relatively modest position control bandwidth, but considering the size and purpose of the tornado missile it actually makes sense.
thanks for content. could you please make review of servo motors?
Thank you sir.
Первым буду ! Спасибо за видео !
I didn't expect it to be quite so quick though in hindsight I probably should have considering it's use case. Very interesting as usual. Thanks for the content.
Interesting, I thought it would actually be quicker specifically because of its use case.
@ yeah, totally fair, and obviously it's plenty fast enough, just imagined it being faster for the maneuvering requirements of a short range interceptor.
Very nice explanation! Did you get the communication module? Could you please give us details if you have it! Thank you very much!
Unfortunately I don’t have this one yet.
10:13 - I wonder if Ken Shirriff or anyone else doing decapping/analysis of chips would be interested to take a look at those Russian made opamps / other ICs .. Is it really all Russian made or maybe it's just Russian packaged foreign silicon?
There are plenty of videos from Russian microelectronics factories. They look very similar to older Intel factories, and use practically the same equipment. Definitely capable of producing OpAmps and small logic chips in any numbers needed for the missiles. A small factory without any automation at all makes one million chips a year at $30/chip.
@@cogoid not arguing they cannot make those. But given Russia's corruption problems I'd be curious to check if they're not buying bare dies, packaging and pocketing the difference.
Вы пишите чушь. СССР, а сейчас и РФ выпускают для военной техники ПЛИС, микроконтроллеры и процесорные наборы. Этого достаточно, чтобы сделать технику которая может управлять от атомной станции до ракеты. Но если вы посмотрите украинскую или европейскую пропаганду, то да чипы они берут из микроволновок😂
@@ВладимирЛенин-я8яприведите мне пример программируемая вентильная матрица производства России
@@ВладимирЛенин-я8я Which fabs in the russian federation are making FPGAs and microprocessors?
Hello, rookie here. Could someone please explain why analog control is used here? It seems that the rocket system ia relative new around 2014, why not use a microcontroller to acheive this servo control?
As we say in France « pourquoi faire simple quand on peut faire compliqué? ». What can be the advantage to use a microcontroller ? Risk of failure is much more important. As in nuclear power plant for example, programmable devices are generally prohibited, analog control is common.
@@cogoid I'd really love some background info about how they design this kind of stuff. This "somewhat less competent" approach to PCB design surprised me quite a bit after watching many teardowns and reverse engineering videos about all kinds of soviet/ru aviation and mil equipment. I have seen a few things that could be done in a better way, but never this kind of "student who has no clue, no motivation, no experience bodges his way through until the thing somehow works and then a superior doesn't give a sh... and signs off on it without having a closer look" - thing. I mean, placing the passive components of an analog filter so far away from the active part is ridiculous, that's just asking for trouble. I was honestly thinking what could be a sound reason for doing it this way on purpose. Making reverse engineering a bit harder? Using the stray inductance of the long traces in the circuit? Maybe it works better if the circuit oscillates a little bit?
@@tpa6120a2dwp It is done this way because they are to stupid to make it better.
@@Ed-rt9qt ☺☺☺ You're so funny)
Very good!
Is so called "9M542" missle ? Merci / Дякую!
great work engineer, what software are used for the Electronic diagram reverse eng.? thx
Pads Logic
Hello, super travail comme toujours, dommage que cette super techno soit employée sur des armes plutôt que pour améliorer la vie des terriens.... Bonnes fêtes de fin d'année.
sa others have statesd, I'm tryna see that things max acceleration - I'd assume it has an insane reaction time.
All these engineering makes sure that it blows up (ultimate goal of missile).
Узнаю чипы из своей стиральной машинки 😂
Ты все врёшь! Это не твоя стиральная машинка! Ты её забрал после штурма очередного мирного украинского села! 😱
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@Alex-yutb у него вятка автомат 87г.в.
Do you have any Collins FPC-75 GPWS?
Are these the washing machine chips?
No. Soviet era op amps.
@@chefchaudard3580 качественные и надёжные вещи, в Джавелинах тоже проверенная временем комплектуха.
Заблуждаетесь. ОУ и транзисторы стоят сравнительно свежие. Видимо вас путает преемственность маркировки активных элементов из СССР в РФ.
@@kurtprosvet7533agreed. Most military equipment use proven, reliable, old stuff.
high tech, if any, is to be found in the guiding part. High speed processing (image processing for the most sophisticated ones)
Here, for the aileron control, 30 years old op amps are good enough. 😊
Even it is washing machine chips it hits its target
Where do you buy your cool parts from, monsieur? I want to buy to play as well
Where have you bought this?
прилетело, запчасть от орешника.
Ванек, твой орешник убил больше россиян, которым на лекарства не хватило, чем украинцев.
Where do you get all these parts ? , I love the motor mechanism
можно сьездить в украину, всу с радостью примут вас в свои ряды. но придется научится прятатся от разлетающихся запчастей.
10:05 The details are from last year.
Soviet reserves may have been exhausted?
No ukrop
@@goodlife6277 чьи Херсон с Луганском?
@@ИмяФамилия-е7р6и In Russian please
merry christmass
Hmm, They use pwm to control servos like RC model system. Interesting.
Joyeux Noël !
thanks
Суровая советская серво машинка!))
Ракетка свежая, буквально в прошлом году с конвеера.
Суровые замороженные навсегда пенсии Емель и сурово обесценивающаяся рублемасса на сберегательных вкладах 🤣
@@ИмяФамилия-е7р6и на рублевкладах сейчас процент хороший. гораздо выше реальной инфляции.
@@МихаилПрохоров-ь2е Оставь свои сказки для Буратин.
Девальвация рубля относительно мировых валют тоже "гораздо выше реальной инфляции".
@@ИмяФамилия-е7р6и Щас цены на газ поднимутся 😂😂😂 Газ это не виртуальная бумага 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@ИмяФамилия-у4м9ч да, в рублях цены не только на газ поднимутся. Автомобиль уже стоит несколько миллионов рублей. А про квартиры лучше и не вспоминать 😂😂😂😂
Bravo
Почему потенциометры, а не энкодеры?
схема аналоговая
Вітаю!))) Раді бачити і чути,дякуємо за черговий цікавий артефакт!!!
Tersine mühendislik ? 😂
Cat needs on-screen time.
Now I know what a missile will sound like as it's steering itself towards me. 😅
с 555 вы можете генерировать импульсы ШИМ. спокойный ум 🤔
Best 🎅🎅 toys
Looks like weird engineering to compensate for shitty parts. Quite powerful, though. The aerodynamic forces in the vane are no joke.
what are the shitty parts you are referring?
shitty parts are aerospace grade (goldplated + white ceramic)
у меня есть дома такие сервомоторы серии ДПР. не знал что они в ракетах применяются. я использовал их в самоделках
Can't see Western chips. Wasn't it claimed that Russia has no semiconductor industry and takes chips from washing machines and other appliances?
did you see guidance computer?
Look at Russia's space flight. Do you think this was made on western chips? The West can't even come close to building missiles that have the same capabilities. What should Russia do with Western chips that don't even exist for Russia's requirements?
@@Phantom-rb8yv are you serious? Most of sophisticated russian rockets using fpga from Altera or Xilinx for calculation... For controlling wings you can use standard electronics... The engineering level on this video can be reproduced by avarage electronics student.
@@Phantom-rb8yv huh? can you give an example of any Russian missile which does not have and old western analog, or a modern western superior?
next, oreshnik
Hopefully soon a UAV!
2:43 home lab quality inspector disrupts stream
Parts are very high quality and metal is fine machined and you told it is made of titanium. But every beautiful part is destroyed when launched.
Wow!
let's assemble a fully working tornado s from the table😄😄😄
It's Cat...tronic🐱...
2:43min😆
Can they send the whole missile to you for full review and reverse engineering? I mean they have tons of them in nearly perfect shape because in most cases Russians use Tornado-S with cluster munition. So after release of sub munitions the missile is inert and keeps almost unharmed after landing. Looks like they massively disassemble and sell them by pieces. What a waste of cool toys!
It is already complicated to export a simple board, so a complete missile…
Maybe if Michel moves to a neighbouring country... 😅
@@lelabodemichel5162 It would be a fun episode to talk about 'making of' and all the issues you face with getting the parts
А теперь умник попробуй собрать из этого стиральную машину !
Thank you for another very interesting video. Again, outdated and amateurish russian technology, but unfortunately sufficient for killing.
this is classic H-bridge with analog feedback used in modern servos for rc models
@@kalobyte Yes.
Do similar shells produced in the USA, Germany, etc. use some previously unknown, transcendental technologies? 😂
These are standard solutions for standard mass-produced ammunition. These systems are identical everywhere.
@@D_K-os1ds Russian electronics looks amateurish. Lots of handwork, obsolete components, wire jumpers... US-made electronics certainly don't look like that.
without US made Analog Device electronic components , this just wouldn't work...
It would work. It's just that earlier it was done on discrete transistors, and instead of FPGA they used mask ROM and PLM.
Russia is a mix of ancient soviet tech currently made in Belarus("Integral") and Western/Chinese chip and put together by western tech on western software .
Not much software here though
@@rkan2 What do you think they use to design a layout ? pen and paper?
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
@@koskok2965 Well its far from russian superpower claims they like to boast about.
@@dukenukem8381 Judging by the routing like Michel pointed out, I wouldn't be surprised. :D
Show us your cat 🐈
Ты скрываешь правду.внутри должны быть чипы от украинских стиральных машин и унитазов
ты донатишь всу? лучше бы помогал тису переплыть хлопцам.
так помогает всу, чтоб не нужно было плыть через Тысу
cos that pot is precious!
Америка поставляет комплектующие России !
nope. maybe china. maybe.
not intentionally. but organized crime has always been good at smuggling - Russia is amongst such noble peers as Mafia, North Korea, Iran.
You could gear it up a little and turn it into a ridiculous clock 😂😂
Россия делает хорошее и правильное оружие ))
and they still work.
This cannot be said about other countries.
Military missile parts for sale. Used, but good. 😂😂😂
Your audio quality is atrocious, you need a better audio setup.
It's picking up every other noise better than your voice (and your accent isn't helping either)
Нашему иностранному разборщику все не так - теперь понимаешь трассировка и расположение элементов на печатной плате не правильное. Видать Пикад ломаный у этих русских. Одно радует чипы не из унитазов и холодильников.
вот какая разница по башке прилетает и весьма эффективно)))
Great job!