🦸♂ Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy78 🔧50% OFF your first engine building course. Enrol now: hpcdmy.co/offery78 TIME STAMPS 00:00 - Intro 00:30 - Gapless ring design 00:50 - Brief history on the gapless ring 01:20 - Why do we need gapless rings? 02:00 - Advantages of a gapless ring? 04:13 - Top Ring & Second Ring setup theory 06:08 - Which setup should you go for? 06:51 - Heat considerations? 07:47 - Ring widths & Sealing 09:40 - Heat Management & Micro Welding 11:50 - Radial Tension of rings 13:47 - Total Seal Products 14:29 - Outro
Except unlike a lawyer the people Andre interviews can and do willingly help with that homework haha Countless awesome people behind the scenes in the industry help make things like this happen, it's great and appreciated by us too - Taz.
@@mcfast52 Either you know everything, and there was no point in you watching this, or you know a liitle bit and think you know everything and there was no point in you watching this... My money would be on the latter, as you certainly don't understand that Andre was expanding on what was said, and setting the questions he was going to ask - certainly not "reating" or "dumping down" the interviewee. Even if you actually meant "dumbing down" it isn't what was happening.
I feel the same way but I would still probably go with what's the most proven. There are millions of hours in research and development done by the public so just take what's been proven to be best over time and use that and you'll probably have the best option
yo dude knows how to talk. all car company needs a guy like this or needs to train a media guy. he provided examples and didnt task the interviewer with carring the convo. great interview.
Andre always does, he knows his shit. I like when Andre interviewed Rob dahm, he says "I'm a tuner"🤣🤣.. It was then I realised Rob has no idea Andre has probably forgotten more than he knows lol
@@PSTS636 The 3 rotor that shit itself due to Robs tuning? yeah okay lol. The 4 rotor built in New Zealand, the Awd chassis built by a New Zealander running an Aussie gbox? yeah okay, the best thing Rob did was employ the service of Kiwi's and Aussie's, he should go one better and get it tuned by someone residing in the southern hemisphere too lol.
I had a gapless ring installed on my dirt bike. I don't have much to compare it too but so far the top end has lasted twice as long as the stock top end.
I’ve been using gapless rains for years and they’re definitely a game changer. They also keep your oil cleaner as a result of the less blow by and an increase in compression, makes it well worth it… Keep on rockin
Keith, thank you for actually knowing what you're talking about and being able to articulate it and give credible examples. And thank you Andre and HPA for IMMACULATE, respectful, organized interview technique
You will definitely like em. Easy 3% power gain on a new engine. The biggest difference on a street engine is after you hit 20,000 miles. Ya still got zero gap, not a fat open conventional gap.
Two of the questions you should have definitely asked but didn't. 1) Why there are no OEMs moving towards that way of sealing (if i am not mistaken about that) 2) Since they claim that the seal is so much better, is there stil a need for the second compression ring and if so why? Just to make it clear, i can definitely come up with answers for both of those but it would be nice to see what he had to say.
You have to understand that in F1 racing, they heat up their oil to warm up their cylinder walls and pistons and rings so the gap wouldn't be too tight to start the motor.
The cool thing with Total Seal is you can call them up and many times actually talk with Keith (at least that was the situation years ago) and he'll talk your ear off about your combo and what you can go with. I wanted to stick with conventional gap rings, and a low (16#) oil ring for a typical 400 SBC N/A drag combo, 1/16 1/16 3/16 setup. Keith recommended a set with a napier second ring and an 8# oil ring, even though I had no plans for a vacuum pump. The rings sealed instantly, and have provided years of service. What wasn't mentioned in this interview, is thinner and lower tension rings reduce cylinder wall wear, so what might require a rebore in the old days using the old 5/64 compression rings, can last more seasons or thousands of miles more in a street car with a thinner ring package. Many piston manufacturers offer pistons with these modern, thinner ring grooves.
@@tunnelportterror The last engine I built for myself was back in 2005 and it's not been apart since. It's still running and has about 1% leak-down. It makes upwards of 650-700HP. Not only that, but it's a little Buick V6 that does it. It must be you or your engine builder that can't build an engine. I've never had an issue Total Seal Gapless Rings so I stand by my first comment.
I used Sealed Gap gapless rings in my Dodge Challenger 383 back in the 90's I had the Chromoly ones. It took about 30,000 miles to seat them in but after the seated in it was a beast. I feel not many even know about them.
Truly fantastic interview. Great to see an interviewer and interviewee so well matched so you get great questions and great answers that erode common myths. I'm still not convinced that Gapless Seconds should be thing, though. Sorry Keith.
Good stuff. Eliminating blow by makes for such a nicer engine experience lol! But all you hear on the internet is that there is no real gain from gapless rings or that they never really seal up well in the end. None of the engine builders I use recommend going gapless.
Oh man what BS I used TS AP SS gapless top rings in my BBC running an F1A-94 procharger on the street..I didn't even run an intercooler..at 17psi on an engine with 650hp NA you do that math...meth only with a 2618 blower piston...and have had the meth pump die twice...no worries...also I've ran it with 87 at 1000+ hp in winter....the ring was down the crown due to piston design, then opened up gapless tops...it just didn't give 2 shits took a beating 1000 hits on street strip...zero blow by used basic filter vents didn't even need a catch can it was nuts....
@@tunnelportterror You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. You can't just install piston rings in a worn out engine bore and expect them to seal correct. Stop spreading misinformation and please...stop building engines in the sandbox in your back yard.
@@tunnelportterror Uh, that's a really ignorant thing to say. With a "race" engine with optimal ring gaps that are JUST shy of butting, there may be negligible difference initially. However, over time rings and bores do wear very slightly and the end gaps open up and sealing is slightly compromised - this is why these rings are almost exclusively used in endurance engines, such as NASCAR, because their design allows the seal to be maintained even when each part's gap increases. Does it work? Uh, since ring leakdown and crankcase vacuum are often better at the end of a 500 mile race than at the start, I would think so. Now, consider a "street" engine - while this means different things to different people - for one it may be a "street racer", for another a "power tour" car expected to do a few thousand miles between builds, for another it may be a stock or mildly modifies engine that's expected to do hundres of thousands of varies miles. While each of them may benefit from the improved resistance to wear compromising the ring seal, it's the last that should see most benefit.
I have only put rings in Honda blocks and one 1jz but all the NPR rings I have fitted said to never gap them on std bore size. The problem with proving ring flutter is that it had a catastrophic failure and there is nothing to look at after RUD. I call it "ring chatter" that's what it really is IMO. the vapor pressure that is applied to the rings makes them deflect sometimes riding in the piston grove funny/weird and they wipe on the cylinder wall like bad windscreen wipers chattering. But like you said rare thing to happen and if it happens long enough one may see zebra stripes the chattering leaves on the cylinder walls.
I'm thinking of having the engine in my 370Z bored and stroked out from 3.7 liters to about 4.3 liters in NA form and have planned to use gapless rings in it.
I ran Total Seal's gapless on the street and race, both gapless top and gapless second. The gapless second, on a well built 454, ran very well for over 200k miles. Different story on race engine. Consistently had oil smoke out the exhaust, oil consumption issues, detonation due to oil in the chambers. This was with both gapless top or second. Both had the same issue. Went back to conventional rings, issues gone....
Seems like a really neat idea, not have to compromise (and/or gamble) on ring gap size, offer better power, possibly even better MPG, and longer oil life, as well as better emissions from less burned oil. So why isn't this universal, used on production cars (where many of those advantages are more relevant even than on performance builds)? What's the drawback? Also, how do they hold up over time compared with normal rings?
I think the drawback is that the ring flutter thing likely isn’t BS and is a serious issue. From what I’ve read the gaps in sealing account for a minuscule percentage in performance loss. With today’s super tight emission I would think the OEMs could justify the expense considering other emissions hardware is likely far more expensive than a ring. Still though, perhaps they are expensive but still, manufacturers put out expensive cars as well where cost isn’t an issue. Are gapless rings installed in the Nissan GT-R, AMG GT, Ford GT, Audi R8, etc? I doubt they do and for me that’s answer enough.
@@kellyjensen9425 Yeah, because you think it's BS, it must be true🤦♂️.. In competition extracting every last benefit could be the difference. Not the case in production vehicles. Production cars have ideal operating parameters, they are run at a constant so don't need the benefit of being dual purpose at added expense. Just because a car is expensive too, does not mean bean counters don't try save on every component. Maintenance or Direct injection leaks, emissions when an engine wears meaning emission controls still need be in place etc etc etc heaps of reasons as to why not in a production vehicle but mainly ease, cost and catering for the average consumer would be high up in the reasoning one would assume.
I run a gapless top ring on my SBF 331 and i do get ring flutter on my second ring as it doesn't let any blowby get by the top ring to seat the second napier ring and seat and seal and scrap the oil off. Ill will use about 1 qt of oil every 100 miles. The way i coreected it is i sealed the engine crankcase and let the engine become its own vacuum pump and seat the second ring. Running this way, ill use 1/2 qt every 1000 miles. Ive sean on total seals website that they now say that the gapless top ring does have a oil consumption issue as a negative on its use
For NA applications, it improves volumetric efficiency IE more power less pumping losses. For boost a second ring gapless makes sense like he said for running E85/Methanol to keep the fuel from diluting the oil breaking it down.
I did a little more reading and apparently they don't last as long as normal rings so are really only an option for race engines that will be refreshed regularly.
Hmm, I'm gonna have to try these in my closed deck 2.2 build... I really like the idea of 'eliminating' blow-by, but it seems a little hard to believe it's prevented 100%. There's only one way to find out I guess.
Typical is less than 2% leakdown - occasionally less than a percent, doubt it is ever a TRUE ZERO, I would venture to guess that a ZERO indicates an error in the the instruments or operator.
Should the ring pack be set lower from the piston crown for nitrous\blower applications? I have seen large numbers (.40"+) discussed on the Wiseco blogs. Seems pretty hard to do with all these pistons out with short compression heights. Subscribed.
I'm on my first set of gapless rings I am using the 2nd ring as gapless I believe Napier. Very happy has absolutely helped my motor stay together longer.
I have a question Andre. I remember reading or hearing somewhere a few years ago about an R34 time attack car that was running Wills rings for piston rings. But, I’ve never been able to find anything about it. Surely this can’t be possible as they are a sealed system and you can’t get them over a piston, correct? If it is possible I would love to learn more about it though. Thank you!
I think some replacements for the GM 6.2/6.5 include total seal rings. Whenever I read about them, the owners are always stunned by how many miles they can go before the oil turns black. The claim that Total Seal rings reduce oil contamination rates is correct.
Great knowledge being passed on, I can remember Andy Dawson talking about engine distortion in the 70s, and trying to pre tension blocks during machining! That open deck configuration makes me cringe!
that's what torque plates were designed for... we at a high end race engine shop machined them with the torque plates, main caps and typically heated the engine block to operating temp - 180 -200 deg prior to honing.
Subaru used fully open decks in their NA EJ-series engines, but they used closed decks in their turbocharged EJ-series engines. They knew the open deck couldn't take the added pressure of turbocharging. Subaru later replaced the EJ-series engine with something else, but I don't know if the turbo versions were open deck or closed deck.
Does anyone bore/hone cylinders at operating temperature to have a round bore at temperature? Or are blocks designed so they can machined and the thermal distortion will cancel the elastic distortion due to cylinder pressure?
I'm pretty sure that Honda performs very exact calculations on thermal expansion of their aluminum blocks to machine then better for when in use. Their tolerances are very tight and oil-burning has typically been quite low.
yeh there's no ring flutter with a 9000rpm sprint car engine with 17:1 compression.. because at that high of a compression ratio, there's still enough blowby pressure to get past the 2nd ring, even while using a gapless Total Seal ring, rather than pressure get trapped between the rings and cause flutter. and there's enough blowby to make the low tension or standard tension oil ring work as well. because some slight blowby is what makes the oil rings work work in the first place. it's a simple concept, looking up at the bottom of the piston, from the crankcase side, blowby air pressure above the piston acts as an air gun and blows oil downward into the crankcase, and off the rings, and into the oil ring grooves, and openings in the oil ring groove, into the inside underside of piston. and that keeps it out of the combustion chamber. this is why Total Seal rings on a street engine smoke. they're really a high compression race only ring application.
If this technology has been around for 50 years, why aren't OEMs utilizing it? And in engines like RB's where a lot has to be done to control the breathing of the engine, why isn't installing gapless rings standard procedure?
There is no "real gapless ring" - heat causes metal to expand, that's literally why rings have gaps, to leave room for this expansion "gapless" is a misnomer - they're overlapping rings, but that overlap still has to be set to prevent the ring from touching and breaking the ring lands
@@njclsx4252 think they make a mix of 3d printing. The gapeless Ring isnt a problem in a F1 Engine, it gets warmed up oil and water 30 min before running, so it cant stuck
You are 100% right, not everything that is good for a performance engine is good for an OEM engine. They are very different things built for different purposes 😎 - Taz.
KOENISEGG Free valve uses electro-hydraulic operated valves for an infinitely adjustable camshaft profile. I have been wanting to do this for 40 years.
@@realtruth97 Theres a old miata with freevalve floating around on youtube and theres predator 212s etc with freevalve.......might be the same guy doing it.
@@jonpippen6998 An EVS {Electronic Valve System} would be cool. I'll have to create it myself. Imagine all the space it would save? No need for oil. Shafts. Springs. Just the valves in there. Connected to the EVS. 🤔
this should have been mandatory from start of 21st century it is somehow funny how car manufacturers avoid making cars more durable than they want them to be, even despite the fact that this tech would not only prolong life of a vehicle but also slightly improve emissions on the long run
With the newer lower visc oils can you stay a little wet like f1 , would this aid in power making like they did...?....asking for a friend...😒😎😂.....my beetle...😜
I've used Total Seal gapless rings since the early 80s and wouldn't use anything else, once you use them you'll never go back to what you were using before !
@@master6435 It is also important to upgrade the pistons, the early 2AZFE pistons didn't have enough oil drainback holes. That, in addition to the extremely narrow oil rings meant that the tiniest amount of varnish would make the engine burn too much oil. If the original pistons are in good shape, many people simply drill more holes in them. If the pistons aren't in good shape, people buy a set of the current ones. I had a different engine with crappy piston rings, it was a Saturn Ecotec 2.2 and cylinder #3 was dead at 130,000 miles. I thought of reringing the engine, but I just decided to buy a new car instead.
What sucks they don't have any gapless rings for my ej257 engine.... seriously!?!? Been in business for over 40 years and doesn't have subaru 99.5mm gapless rings?
Ive been using them for over 30 years. on almost everything I build.from supper charged to air cooled vw stuff.the oil stays much cleaner.much better seal for way way way longer time. it is best to have a accumulator groove if possible even a tiny one will help.what else does a accumulator grove do??? lightens the piston!!! there are many morons that think these are just for race cars...or they are over kill....well, you cant fix stupid.
@@jockellis contact total seal but Im pretty sure they will have them or cn make them. usualy $85-130 for 4 cylinder, for them sets. alsoI used to send them rings for them to remachine into total seal rings many many years ago for the ones they did not make at that time. but you really need to start poff with a good ring.not the china crap or other low quality rings. as for power, not a lot, but the oil stays so clean, the oil temps seem to be lower, less oil leeks if any at all.they are well worth the $$ spent. also if you have new cylinders they need to be honed finer,or atleast the "Tooth " knocked off. witch you can do by hand with 400 grit wet/dry with soapy warm water and our hand in the cylinder hand honing just about 1 -2 min each with the same pattern.use the palm of your hand. that should take the tooth off(sharp edges that eat up rings) then throughley clean a few times & lightly oil .never oil the rings. wipe the oil out of the cylinder with clean paper towels, the towels should come out clean if it does not you havent cleaned it enough. re oil and wipe out with another clean ppaper towel. install rings properly I install into cylinder, then install cylinder & pin& pin clips/ buttons,be sure to oil wrist pin,wrist pin bores, rod pin bore & lightly oil skirts.no oil on rings as you have pree oiled the cylinder walls & wiped off exsess with paper towel.thats all the oil it needs.
@@jockellis thats what I figured, get the compleate set of total seal rings for them. and be sure to knock the tooth off to make them last. I have a sunnen hone but it takes a good amount of time to do them with it, mainly it's good for used cylinders or increasing the clearance, a good hand hone wash is usually what I do on new cylinders that have the right clearance. not just draging the paper across it you need to add some pressure with the palm of our hand. not hard to do at all.unless you have extra big hands like I do, then no need to add pressure it's already there. those sharp edges from the factry hone job will eat the rings up, they will also wear off and it all gets either imbeded in the piston skirts witch then wears out the cylinder walls or some of it gets into the oil and starts eating every thing else& cloging the oil filter. these vw engines do not have to be disposable like most people build. my 2028 had 80000 miles on it trubble free with an extra 50000 miles on the crank,main bearings,camshaft&heads before I put it all in a new case with new bigger pistons. and it still ran perfect when i sold the car 4 ears ago.always synthetic oil used after the first 3 oil & filter changes in the first week. 4th oil/filter change it got a syn blend for 1 week then full 5-20 full synthetic name brand oil. it was driven like I stole it every day I owned it( it was my daily driver) duell webbers 44 idf. .55" lift cam, wedgeport heads 1.34 ratio rockers,10.4 cr. 93 octane pump gas. it was quite fun. the new owner loves it.
I won't build an engine without a gapless ring so many advantages. increase fuel mileage more power keeps the oilfrom being contaminated like they mentioned they will last Until Jesus returns. And more. And you will get better fuel mileage if an engine has four or 5% Blow by that for 5% of your gasoline going into the oil in the form of carbon and of course going out the blow by I love them and with the increase fuel mileage they will actually pay for themselves over the life of the engine many times over
Who was the maker of these rings, I can post picture of a piston that had gapless rings all the way around and it busted a piston after 5 years at 750 hp engine components rated for 1000 76mill turbo meth injection so if these are a better manufacturer idk be interested in checking them out
Nothing last forever to be fair and there is a point where building for a higher HP than you are running doesn't actually add any longevity. In some specific cases it would actually reduce it. To answer your question though I believe 'Total Seal' is the brand Andre has personally used in a dedicated drag engine build/s - Taz.
![Why Do NASCAR Teams Use This Technology? | Calico DLC Coatings [TECH TALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AunRiiSidBE/mqdefault.jpg)
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TIME STAMPS
00:00 - Intro
00:30 - Gapless ring design
00:50 - Brief history on the gapless ring
01:20 - Why do we need gapless rings?
02:00 - Advantages of a gapless ring?
04:13 - Top Ring & Second Ring setup theory
06:08 - Which setup should you go for?
06:51 - Heat considerations?
07:47 - Ring widths & Sealing
09:40 - Heat Management & Micro Welding
11:50 - Radial Tension of rings
13:47 - Total Seal Products
14:29 - Outro
This guy is a great interviewer! He really extracts the knowledge out of the person he is talking with
A good interviewer is like a good lawyer; he does his homework and already knows the answers to the questions being asked.
Except unlike a lawyer the people Andre interviews can and do willingly help with that homework haha Countless awesome people behind the scenes in the industry help make things like this happen, it's great and appreciated by us too - Taz.
@@tonkatoytruck Lawyer and good in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
Scum of the earth those parasites - and that's a description of the good ones.
@@mcfast52
Either you know everything, and there was no point in you watching this, or you know a liitle bit and think you know everything and there was no point in you watching this...
My money would be on the latter, as you certainly don't understand that Andre was expanding on what was said, and setting the questions he was going to ask - certainly not "reating" or "dumping down" the interviewee. Even if you actually meant "dumbing down" it isn't what was happening.
@@mikeeagle2653
See comment made above.
Well, looks like I’ll be going with gapless rings soon. What a great interview and presentation from the product manager.
I feel the same way but I would still probably go with what's the most proven. There are millions of hours in research and development done by the public so just take what's been proven to be best over time and use that and you'll probably have the best option
At the same time we have to advance so some have to take a little risk
@@rolandotillit2867 I believe it's better if he contacts them instead of taking your opinion
@@rolandotillit2867 hahahaha no.
@@rolandotillit2867 🤡🤡🤡🤡
yo dude knows how to talk. all car company needs a guy like this or needs to train a media guy. he provided examples and didnt task the interviewer with carring the convo. great interview.
Andre always does, he knows his shit.
I like when Andre interviewed Rob dahm, he says "I'm a tuner"🤣🤣..
It was then I realised Rob has no idea Andre has probably forgotten more than he knows lol
@@PSTS636 There's tuners, then there's tuners. Rob has tuned, Abel is his tuner. Andre is god level by comparison
@@PSTS636 The 3 rotor that shit itself due to Robs tuning? yeah okay lol. The 4 rotor built in New Zealand, the Awd chassis built by a New Zealander running an Aussie gbox? yeah okay, the best thing Rob did was employ the service of Kiwi's and Aussie's, he should go one better and get it tuned by someone residing in the southern hemisphere too lol.
I had a gapless ring installed on my dirt bike. I don't have much to compare it too but so far the top end has lasted twice as long as the stock top end.
Who is manufacturer? I'm thinking to play with it, but didn't see such rings for dirtbikes yet.
I’ve been using gapless rains for years and they’re definitely a game changer. They also keep your oil cleaner as a result of the less blow by and an increase in compression, makes it well worth it… Keep on rockin
In Australia 🇦🇺 mick. Why no replay. ?
Are you still standing its great ? Where to buy. Or closed. Thank you. 👍
Great interview! Thanks.
I put those rings in my lawn tractor ~20 years ago because that's all my supplier had in stock. LOL
Keith, thank you for actually knowing what you're talking about and being able to articulate it and give credible examples. And thank you Andre and HPA for IMMACULATE, respectful, organized interview technique
Great interview! You asked clear questions, and you let the guy talk and have enough time to finish what he was saying. Thankyou.
Had no idea these were a thing. Suppose I have another tech to look at when I build a car.
@@RwP223 thank you for the information! I'll keep it in mind.
You will definitely like em.
Easy 3% power gain on a new engine.
The biggest difference on a street engine is after you hit 20,000 miles. Ya still got zero gap, not a fat open conventional gap.
Mr. Keith, you are one smart guy. 👌
Most people aren't across their subject as this rep. There was not a single aspect of this interview he hesitated on.
he's peddling this wares
The guys in the automotive aftermarket are there for a reason.
Didn't even know these rings were available amazing stuff, huge possibilities for my project car. many thanks for a great post
These interviews sustain me
EXCELLENT !!! 👍👍👍
Two knowledgable men explaining in simple understandable terms.
I have run gapless rings exclusively since I learned about them when I worked for a NASCAR engine shop in the early 1990's.
Do you have a favorite manufacturer of gapless rings?
@@forrestfuller6359 Total Seal is the only company that makes gapless rings.
Do you know Troy Martin
I've been using total seal for a long time. i love their stuff💪
Ive used gapless 2nd rings in my vw for years.
Highly recommend them.
I really enjoyed watching the Monster Truck on the TV in the background
Keith Jones is possibly the best piston ring guy in the nation. He's my go to guy for every major project.
Two of the questions you should have definitely asked but didn't.
1) Why there are no OEMs moving towards that way of sealing (if i am not mistaken about that)
2) Since they claim that the seal is so much better, is there stil a need for the second compression ring and if so why?
Just to make it clear, i can definitely come up with answers for both of those but it would be nice to see what he had to say.
I also had this question
The same reason for every compromise on oem cars. Cost. And maybe they only last 100k and not 200k miles.
What are your answers?
What does F1 use
You have to understand that in F1 racing, they heat up their oil to warm up their cylinder walls and pistons and rings so the gap wouldn't be too tight to start the motor.
Learned so much. Excellent interview and questions. I never knew that gapless even existed.
Gapless teeth exist too!😁
This is so useful! So good to know.
Glad it was helpful!
Love it, I've been waiting for a video like this to explain gapless rings
The cool thing with Total Seal is you can call them up and many times actually talk with Keith (at least that was the situation years ago) and he'll talk your ear off about your combo and what you can go with. I wanted to stick with conventional gap rings, and a low (16#) oil ring for a typical 400 SBC N/A drag combo, 1/16 1/16 3/16 setup. Keith recommended a set with a napier second ring and an 8# oil ring, even though I had no plans for a vacuum pump. The rings sealed instantly, and have provided years of service.
What wasn't mentioned in this interview, is thinner and lower tension rings reduce cylinder wall wear, so what might require a rebore in the old days using the old 5/64 compression rings, can last more seasons or thousands of miles more in a street car with a thinner ring package. Many piston manufacturers offer pistons with these modern, thinner ring grooves.
He does talk about a smaller ring having lower wear on the bore.
I've been using Total Seal Gapless rings for many years. I won't build an engine without them. They simply work!
you must have a lot of smoking engines you built then
@@tunnelportterror The last engine I built for myself was back in 2005 and it's not been apart since. It's still running and has about 1% leak-down. It makes upwards of 650-700HP. Not only that, but it's a little Buick V6 that does it. It must be you or your engine builder that can't build an engine. I've never had an issue Total Seal Gapless Rings so I stand by my first comment.
amazing interview. Lots of knowledge in a 15 min vid . Well Done !
Much appreciated!
I used Sealed Gap gapless rings in my Dodge Challenger 383 back in the 90's I had the Chromoly ones. It took about 30,000 miles to seat them in but after the seated in it was a beast. I feel not many even know about them.
That seems wrong
Dude it shouldn’t take 30,000 miles.
@@fastinradfordable he was idling it down the road...at 500rpm it took that long to seat them.
Guy talks so fast i hear “yo” for every “you know”. Honestly a great vid awesome guy👌
Excellent tips and general guides about rings, including gapless rings, outstanding thank you!
I'm subing! I am here to learn even though I got 40+ yrs of learning (so far) under my belt. This info is gold!
Cheers for the sub and glad you're enjoying learning mate! We're never too old and no matter what we know there's always more that we don't haha - Taz
Truly fantastic interview. Great to see an interviewer and interviewee so well matched so you get great questions and great answers that erode common myths. I'm still not convinced that Gapless Seconds should be thing, though. Sorry Keith.
I wasn't sure about applications of 1st or 2nd gapless rings but that's just answered my question thanks.
Enjoying the Hp Academy course too!
Excellent Job of educating and making it easy to understand. Way to go guys.
Good stuff. Eliminating blow by makes for such a nicer engine experience lol! But all you hear on the internet is that there is no real gain from gapless rings or that they never really seal up well in the end. None of the engine builders I use recommend going gapless.
Exactly what I’ve read as well.
Oh man what BS I used TS AP SS gapless top rings in my BBC running an F1A-94 procharger on the street..I didn't even run an intercooler..at 17psi on an engine with 650hp NA you do that math...meth only with a 2618 blower piston...and have had the meth pump die twice...no worries...also I've ran it with 87 at 1000+ hp in winter....the ring was down the crown due to piston design, then opened up gapless tops...it just didn't give 2 shits took a beating 1000 hits on street strip...zero blow by used basic filter vents didn't even need a catch can it was nuts....
I've used Total Seal gapless rings in racing engines and never regretted it, wouldn't build a high performance engine w/o Total Seal gapless rings.
that's all they're good for, racing engines- not street engines
@@tunnelportterror You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. You can't just install piston rings in a worn out engine bore and expect them to seal correct. Stop spreading misinformation and please...stop building engines in the sandbox in your back yard.
@@tunnelportterror
Uh, that's a really ignorant thing to say.
With a "race" engine with optimal ring gaps that are JUST shy of butting, there may be negligible difference initially.
However, over time rings and bores do wear very slightly and the end gaps open up and sealing is slightly compromised - this is why these rings are almost exclusively used in endurance engines, such as NASCAR, because their design allows the seal to be maintained even when each part's gap increases. Does it work? Uh, since ring leakdown and crankcase vacuum are often better at the end of a 500 mile race than at the start, I would think so.
Now, consider a "street" engine - while this means different things to different people - for one it may be a "street racer", for another a "power tour" car expected to do a few thousand miles between builds, for another it may be a stock or mildly modifies engine that's expected to do hundres of thousands of varies miles. While each of them may benefit from the improved resistance to wear compromising the ring seal, it's the last that should see most benefit.
I have only put rings in Honda blocks and one 1jz but all the NPR rings I have fitted said to never gap them on std bore size. The problem with proving ring flutter is that it had a catastrophic failure and there is nothing to look at after RUD. I call it "ring chatter" that's what it really is IMO. the vapor pressure that is applied to the rings makes them deflect sometimes riding in the piston grove funny/weird and they wipe on the cylinder wall like bad windscreen wipers chattering. But like you said rare thing to happen and if it happens long enough one may see zebra stripes the chattering leaves on the cylinder walls.
Fantastic interview and great learning here.
What a gold mine of information just in this one video. Love it. Keep it up hpa.
I'm thinking of having the engine in my 370Z bored and stroked out from 3.7 liters to about 4.3 liters in NA form and have planned to use gapless rings in it.
Really liking these techtalks! Some very interesting information from very knowledgeable people
I ran Total Seal's gapless on the street and race, both gapless top and gapless second. The gapless second, on a well built 454, ran very well for over 200k miles. Different story on race engine. Consistently had oil smoke out the exhaust, oil consumption issues, detonation due to oil in the chambers. This was with both gapless top or second. Both had the same issue. Went back to conventional rings, issues gone....
Great interview! Both players did the job right.
Keith crew is no1,wealth of knowledge
Seems like a really neat idea, not have to compromise (and/or gamble) on ring gap size, offer better power, possibly even better MPG, and longer oil life, as well as better emissions from less burned oil. So why isn't this universal, used on production cars (where many of those advantages are more relevant even than on performance builds)? What's the drawback? Also, how do they hold up over time compared with normal rings?
There will be some downfall of sorts or it would be more common in production cars
@@BIGSMOKE-bl2lq Most likely, cost, warranty and necessity.
@@BIGSMOKE-bl2lq Yeah, exactly - there has to be a drawback, I want to know what it is.
I think the drawback is that the ring flutter thing likely isn’t BS and is a serious issue. From what I’ve read the gaps in sealing account for a minuscule percentage in performance loss. With today’s super tight emission I would think the OEMs could justify the expense considering other emissions hardware is likely far more expensive than a ring. Still though, perhaps they are expensive but still, manufacturers put out expensive cars as well where cost isn’t an issue. Are gapless rings installed in the Nissan GT-R, AMG GT, Ford GT, Audi R8, etc? I doubt they do and for me that’s answer enough.
@@kellyjensen9425 Yeah, because you think it's BS, it must be true🤦♂️..
In competition extracting every last benefit could be the difference. Not the case in production vehicles.
Production cars have ideal operating parameters, they are run at a constant so don't need the benefit of being dual purpose at added expense.
Just because a car is expensive too, does not mean bean counters don't try save on every component.
Maintenance or Direct injection leaks, emissions when an engine wears meaning emission controls still need be in place etc etc etc heaps of reasons as to why not in a production vehicle but mainly ease, cost and catering for the average consumer would be high up in the reasoning one would assume.
nice interview!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Amazing coverage!
I run a gapless top ring on my SBF 331 and i do get ring flutter on my second ring as it doesn't let any blowby get by the top ring to seat the second napier ring and seat and seal and scrap the oil off. Ill will use about 1 qt of oil every 100 miles. The way i coreected it is i sealed the engine crankcase and let the engine become its own vacuum pump and seat the second ring. Running this way, ill use 1/2 qt every 1000 miles. Ive sean on total seals website that they now say that the gapless top ring does have a oil consumption issue as a negative on its use
So what are the disadvantages or contraindications to using gapless rings? Why does he mention using them as a top or 2nd ring but not both?
For NA applications, it improves volumetric efficiency IE more power less pumping losses. For boost a second ring gapless makes sense like he said for running E85/Methanol to keep the fuel from diluting the oil breaking it down.
I did a little more reading and apparently they don't last as long as normal rings so are really only an option for race engines that will be refreshed regularly.
Great information 👍
Glad you enjoyed it Kyle. Hope it was helpful in some way to you now or in the future too - Taz.
Hmm, I'm gonna have to try these in my closed deck 2.2 build... I really like the idea of 'eliminating' blow-by, but it seems a little hard to believe it's prevented 100%. There's only one way to find out I guess.
Typical is less than 2% leakdown - occasionally less than a percent, doubt it is ever a TRUE ZERO, I would venture to guess that a ZERO indicates an error in the the instruments or operator.
love your stuff mate...devils in the details
Should the ring pack be set lower from the piston crown for nitrous\blower applications? I have seen large numbers (.40"+) discussed on the Wiseco blogs. Seems pretty hard to do with all these pistons out with short compression heights. Subscribed.
Great interview!
Chur!
Thank you for the info!
I'm on my first set of gapless rings I am using the 2nd ring as gapless I believe Napier. Very happy has absolutely helped my motor stay together longer.
knew about them but not to that extent, thanks!
I have a question Andre. I remember reading or hearing somewhere a few years ago about an R34 time attack car that was running Wills rings for piston rings. But, I’ve never been able to find anything about it. Surely this can’t be possible as they are a sealed system and you can’t get them over a piston, correct? If it is possible I would love to learn more about it though. Thank you!
There may have been some translation confusion, if they were called 'cylinder rings'?
great questions
Would these be useful for a turbo diesel engine?
Salty Steel
YES
I think some replacements for the GM 6.2/6.5 include total seal rings. Whenever I read about them, the owners are always stunned by how many miles they can go before the oil turns black. The claim that Total Seal rings reduce oil contamination rates is correct.
A ring needs a certain thickness for strength, but I guess the engine oil makes them stick to each other and act as one.
HOW GOOD WOULD THEY WORK FOR DAILY DRIVING?
Awesome questions 👍
Great knowledge being passed on, I can remember Andy Dawson talking about engine distortion in the 70s, and trying to pre tension blocks during machining!
That open deck configuration makes me cringe!
that's what torque plates were designed for... we at a high end race engine shop machined them with the torque plates, main caps and typically heated the engine block to operating temp - 180 -200 deg prior to honing.
It a subaru open deck . It made me spend way to much . So i concur with your statement !!!
Subaru used fully open decks in their NA EJ-series engines, but they used closed decks in their turbocharged EJ-series engines. They knew the open deck couldn't take the added pressure of turbocharging. Subaru later replaced the EJ-series engine with something else, but I don't know if the turbo versions were open deck or closed deck.
Does anyone bore/hone cylinders at operating temperature to have a round bore at temperature? Or are blocks designed so they can machined and the thermal distortion will cancel the elastic distortion due to cylinder pressure?
YES, many people do...
I'm pretty sure that Honda performs very exact calculations on thermal expansion of their aluminum blocks to machine then better for when in use. Their tolerances are very tight and oil-burning has typically been quite low.
Do these engines need a different hone to hold more or less oil on the bores
yeh there's no ring flutter with a 9000rpm sprint car engine with 17:1 compression..
because at that high of a compression ratio, there's still enough blowby pressure to get past the 2nd ring, even while using a gapless Total Seal ring, rather than pressure get trapped between the rings and cause flutter. and there's enough blowby to make the low tension or standard tension oil ring work as well. because some slight blowby is what makes the oil rings work work in the first place. it's a simple concept, looking up at the bottom of the piston, from the crankcase side, blowby air pressure above the piston acts as an air gun and blows oil downward into the crankcase, and off the rings, and into the oil ring grooves, and openings in the oil ring groove, into the inside underside of piston. and that keeps it out of the combustion chamber. this is why Total Seal rings on a street engine smoke. they're really a high compression race only ring application.
Genius!
How do they work with nitrous?
Very well
Do you think the second ring is even required with the gap less ?
Interesting
If this technology has been around for 50 years, why aren't OEMs utilizing it? And in engines like RB's where a lot has to be done to control the breathing of the engine, why isn't installing gapless rings standard procedure?
Mahle is making F1 Pistons with real gapless rings
There is no "real gapless ring" - heat causes metal to expand, that's literally why rings have gaps, to leave room for this expansion
"gapless" is a misnomer - they're overlapping rings, but that overlap still has to be set to prevent the ring from touching and breaking the ring lands
Mahle has always made f1 pistons 15,20 years + and never seen a real gapless ring from them or anyone, btw down to 1 ring now......
@@njclsx4252 are you surprised, that Mahle and Ferrari wont show those pistons?
@@Carbonarars not at all,common practice
@@njclsx4252 think they make a mix of 3d printing. The gapeless Ring isnt a problem in a F1 Engine, it gets warmed up oil and water 30 min before running, so it cant stuck
Very cool
perhaps I'll try using these with my rodless crank
642 mercedes. ?
V6 desiel engine. Please do. God bless 👍
How does it do with power adder?
Lmao 😆 a theory from the early ‘70s. Cheach and Chong come up with it I wonder? Awesome educational video.
Why don't we just use clupit rings? I always wondered why it was changed for the combustion engine.
So what is the compromise when using gapless rings. If it was all good and no bad they would be in every OEM engine but that isn't the case.
You are 100% right, not everything that is good for a performance engine is good for an OEM engine. They are very different things built for different purposes 😎 - Taz.
Then why are rings gapped?
What we need is individual electronic valves
One day - Taz.
KOENISEGG Free valve uses electro-hydraulic operated valves for an infinitely adjustable camshaft profile. I have been wanting to do this for 40 years.
@TheJagjr4450 I want someone to create an electronic valve system for other cars.
@@realtruth97 Theres a old miata with freevalve floating around on youtube and theres predator 212s etc with freevalve.......might be the same guy doing it.
@@jonpippen6998
An EVS {Electronic Valve System}
would be cool.
I'll have to create it myself.
Imagine all the space it would save?
No need for oil.
Shafts.
Springs.
Just the valves in there.
Connected to the EVS.
🤔
this should have been mandatory from start of 21st century
it is somehow funny how car manufacturers avoid making cars more durable than they want them to be, even despite the fact that this tech would not only prolong life of a vehicle but also slightly improve emissions on the long run
With the newer lower visc oils can you stay a little wet like f1 , would this aid in power making like they did...?....asking for a friend...😒😎😂.....my beetle...😜
I've used Total Seal gapless rings since the early 80s and wouldn't use anything else, once you use them you'll never go back to what you were using before !
I've put a lot of engines together in my time, and in my engines, the rings dont flutter around.
Do that make one for the 2azfe?
I don't know. Sometimes they make a ring that isn't listed for a specific engine, but has the proper dimensions for use in that engine.
@@skylinefever yeah that would be a great mod for any 2azfe with the garbage rings toyota put in
@@master6435 It is also important to upgrade the pistons, the early 2AZFE pistons didn't have enough oil drainback holes. That, in addition to the extremely narrow oil rings meant that the tiniest amount of varnish would make the engine burn too much oil. If the original pistons are in good shape, many people simply drill more holes in them. If the pistons aren't in good shape, people buy a set of the current ones.
I had a different engine with crappy piston rings, it was a Saturn Ecotec 2.2 and cylinder #3 was dead at 130,000 miles. I thought of reringing the engine, but I just decided to buy a new car instead.
@@skylinefever Yeah true
I'm sold. Take my money 💰
So who else keeps getting distracted by monster trucks in the background?
Sounds like ima be blowing head gaskets all day
What sucks they don't have any gapless rings for my ej257 engine.... seriously!?!? Been in business for over 40 years and doesn't have subaru 99.5mm gapless rings?
I think they can build them if you order enough of them.
i will try put a extra oil ring in the bottom ring 🤭🤔🤔🤔
anybody used them on subaru ?
Ive been using them for over 30 years. on almost everything I build.from supper charged to air cooled vw stuff.the oil stays much cleaner.much better seal for way way way longer time. it is best to have a accumulator groove if possible even a tiny one will help.what else does a accumulator grove do??? lightens the piston!!! there are many morons that think these are just for race cars...or they are over kill....well, you cant fix stupid.
Can I get these for a 96 mm piston in a 914 and do you know what it would cost? Also, any idea what the extra power might be?
@@jockellis contact total seal but Im pretty sure they will have them or cn make them. usualy $85-130 for 4 cylinder, for them sets. alsoI used to send them rings for them to remachine into total seal rings many many years ago for the ones they did not make at that time. but you really need to start poff with a good ring.not the china crap or other low quality rings. as for power, not a lot, but the oil stays so clean, the oil temps seem to be lower, less oil leeks if any at all.they are well worth the $$ spent. also if you have new cylinders they need to be honed finer,or atleast the "Tooth " knocked off. witch you can do by hand with 400 grit wet/dry with soapy warm water and our hand in the cylinder hand honing just about 1 -2 min each with the same pattern.use the palm of your hand. that should take the tooth off(sharp edges that eat up rings) then throughley clean a few times & lightly oil .never oil the rings. wipe the oil out of the cylinder with clean paper towels, the towels should come out clean if it does not you havent cleaned it enough. re oil and wipe out with another clean ppaper towel. install rings properly I install into cylinder, then install cylinder & pin& pin clips/ buttons,be sure to oil wrist pin,wrist pin bores, rod pin bore & lightly oil skirts.no oil on rings as you have pree oiled the cylinder walls & wiped off exsess with paper towel.thats all the oil it needs.
@@marktucker1651 Mark, thanks for all that information. I’ll do it.
Oh, I’ve got the AA piston and cylinder set.
@@jockellis thats what I figured, get the compleate set of total seal rings for them. and be sure to knock the tooth off to make them last. I have a sunnen hone but it takes a good amount of time to do them with it, mainly it's good for used cylinders or increasing the clearance, a good hand hone wash is usually what I do on new cylinders that have the right clearance. not just draging the paper across it you need to add some pressure with the palm of our hand. not hard to do at all.unless you have extra big hands like I do, then no need to add pressure it's already there. those sharp edges from the factry hone job will eat the rings up, they will also wear off and it all gets either imbeded in the piston skirts witch then wears out the cylinder walls or some of it gets into the oil and starts eating every thing else& cloging the oil filter. these vw engines do not have to be disposable like most people build. my 2028 had 80000 miles on it trubble free with an extra 50000 miles on the crank,main bearings,camshaft&heads before I put it all in a new case with new bigger pistons. and it still ran perfect when i sold the car 4 ears ago.always synthetic oil used after the first 3 oil & filter changes in the first week. 4th oil/filter change it got a syn blend for 1 week then full 5-20 full synthetic name brand oil. it was driven like I stole it every day I owned it( it was my daily driver) duell webbers 44 idf. .55" lift cam, wedgeport heads 1.34 ratio rockers,10.4 cr. 93 octane pump gas. it was quite fun. the new owner loves it.
I won't build an engine without a gapless ring so many advantages.
increase fuel mileage more power
keeps the oilfrom being contaminated like they mentioned they will last Until Jesus returns.
And more. And you will get better fuel mileage if an engine has four or 5% Blow by that for 5% of your gasoline going into the oil in the form of carbon and of course going out the blow by I love them and with the increase fuel mileage they will actually pay for themselves over the life of the engine many times over
Who was the maker of these rings, I can post picture of a piston that had gapless rings all the way around and it busted a piston after 5 years at 750 hp engine components rated for 1000 76mill turbo meth injection so if these are a better manufacturer idk be interested in checking them out
Nothing last forever to be fair and there is a point where building for a higher HP than you are running doesn't actually add any longevity. In some specific cases it would actually reduce it.
To answer your question though I believe 'Total Seal' is the brand Andre has personally used in a dedicated drag engine build/s - Taz.
@@hpa101 thank you I believe the builder might have ran to tight of ring gaps and under boost it eventually blew up
I had to slow down the Playback Speed of this Dude to follow.
How good is that speed feature eh! Hope you enjoyed this one - Taz.
It's a hypothesis not a theory
shame you didn't have time to look at the other rings total seal do
I would rather see these named lapped rings. The rings do have a gap.