Thank you very well explained, I personally hate the fact that EMTB have made people believe mid drive are better when they have so many cons and are only better for very specific things like MTB. Hub drive motor are far superior for anything but hardcore MTB.
that's not true, neither physically nor based on real products. you have to keep in mind that most people only use bikes in the legal 250W range. In most countries, motors with more than 500W are useless because they cannot be used in everyday life. if you compare here, a hub motor has no real chance because the disadvantages outweigh. Hubs only have advantages in the illegal range from 1000/1500W and more, because there are almost no corresponding mid-drive solutions. And these are no longer bicycles. If you compare real products, for example a mid drive with 250W/1000W peak and a hub with 250W/1000W peak. the mid drive will win. Even if the hub has a gearbox. Less weight, higher efficiency, better operating conditions, finer dosing control,, better weight distribution, less heat, easier maintenance of the mid drive, stronger, better and cheaper gearbox at the same time. Mid drive has only one disadvantage, the wear of the chain. but you can swap them out in minutes. But repair a hub wheel when the spokes are broken...much more work. Think what happens to an engine..... The rider pedals with a cadence of 80. The rear wheel spins at 60rpm The mid drive runs at 3000rpm at the same time but what rpm does the "typical" hub run at? 60.... and what does that mean for an engine? especially if the rpms drop even further. In real world conditions with real products within legal laws, on a Pedelec, the mid drive motor will almost always deliver significantly better handling, with better control and performance. For the Hub Motor to win, you have to construct tests that focus on the advantage of a hub. for example an acceleration sprint. Because the mid drive is initially slowed down by the gearbox, while the hub can rotate fully from the first.
Keep in mind, the 250 W limit is the average over 30 minutes, there is no limit on instantaneous power. And since the conditions aren't specified, limits are made up. You'll find the same motor labelled for either 250 W or 500 W. As long as the motor is labelled for the power it's legally allowed to have, you're not exceeding 25 km/h (or 45 km/h for s-Pedelecs) and you don't have a throttle that can be used without pedalling, you'll be fine.
AMEN Brother Troy! I own a 2 wheel drive, 2 battery (Samsung) dual suspension EMTB (E-CELLS Super Monarch Crown). For hunting and camping miles into Nevada's interior I want the RELIABILITY of hub drive in case I could not fix a broken chain. It is a CARGO EMTB that can haul up to 400 pounds (including my weight but excluding the bike's 95 pound weight) **->AS WELL next year I may change out my 2 BAFANG motors for 2 GRIN Technology - a Canadian company - hub motors WITH REGENERATIVE BRAKING! GRIN will soon have their motors integrated with the new FREEGEN Israeli invented regen system. It ONLY regenerates electricity when you brake. When not braking you pedal or FREEWHEEL. Thus the name FREEGEN. This also requires a GRIN controller and GRIN display screen.
This video answered every question i had on the pros and cons. I have searched and found several different answers but the side by side race proved to me yes i have decided on the hub drive. I will also order the one he is talking about. I do light trail rides and mostly paved or gravel paths so i am not worried about the extra weight in the rear wheel, i will not be jumping the bike off of anything......MOST PEOPLE DONT ANYWAY. Thanks for the video this was very helpful.
Bad news. This guy has little to know real understanding of what hes talking about. He doesn't understand the engineering or physics involved in either motor type
@@thehound8125 oh dear,please stop pretending to know what you don't know. This video addresses most concerns regarding hub & mid drives that most of us want to know........how the motors work in REAL world situations.I own a toseven midrive on a straggler and a 1500w hub on my ECR ,I agree with this guys conclusions.....Hubs are simpler ,more reliable and more suitable for most of us.
@@Alex-uh1mj hello Alex ,I don't think the video was supposed to be an explanation of how they work.Just one man's experience after riding a range of options,for those new to ebike motors making their initial choice. Loving th DM02,very quiet,good build quality,very happy.
the one big advantage of an e-motor-> direct and efficient power application to the weel, no way or reason to buy a chain busting mid-drive, and you can have regen Breaking, which is nice regarding wear and tear on the breaking pads
Fuckin awesome man, ! I ride my 250 watt front hub rig for off road trailing, I know you think 250w is wank , but am a veteran still going roady (not dead yet) so dont really want my Kona MTB to do everything for me, so it is genuine 2 wheel drive, battery is low slung, as is front hub, its kind of coincidental it just works perfectly ( for my rig) the handling and straight line stability is fing awesome, and with the throttle i can get 21 mph on dry tarmac, and am 14 stone.
Will it depends how far you're riding, how you ride, the terrain, the wind etc etc. Personally if I was commuting and just wanted a chill smooth ride I'd go mid drive all day. If you're work place is not that far away I wouldn't even worry much about range
It's glad that you specified that you are talking about powerful hub motors. People usually search for 250-500 w (750 max) hub motors and they are completely different story. 1-2k w hub motors are different beast. Whether it's Geared or gearless hub is also important.
and a 750 watt mid-drive will walk all over 1-2kw hub motors up hills and still be legal I'm all for hub drives but they're not bicycles to me they do not use the bikes gear system
Thanks. Refreshingly unbiased review. I have built several ebikes and have nearly 10,000 kms on one of them (a hub drive) with little maintenance needed. One issue you touched on (unsprung mass) is definitely something to consider if doing serious MTB, but as you also said...most people just claim they are when in fact they are just out on some woodland paths (just like most 4x4s are never taken off the tarmac). Mine is just a touring bike and test-bed for future builds. I have had to ride 20 kms on a Sunday on motor only, when a pedal bearing collapsed. Another occasion I'd worn out a chain when away from home and far from the shops. One big plus for most mid-drives is to have the controller built into the motor and therefore protected from the elements. I have always bought hub drives with the controller built in (only available for 1000w and up). Never any problems with waterproofing even in UK weather. Like you say they are different and it's horses-for-courses... Too much snobbery from people trying to justify to themselves why they spent so much on their toys. Forget the price, just enjoy them.
Rear wheel hubs are prone to having their rims damaged due to the load distribution. A decent pothole/speedbump can end your ebike ride there and then.
@@Thanos1908 So true. There are many things to consider that people looking for the cheapest deal just overlook. You can't just use 'normal' bike parts for an ebike. For Hub motor you need: thicker spokes (I'd recommend oversized nipples - never a bad thing :) -or a custom washer to spread the forces), dual-wall rims, and must be careful of the spoke lacing pattern too as this will affect strength (remember the distance for the spokes is shorter due to the size of the hub.) For mid-drive: consider upgrading chain and sprockets as you have more force going through them. You should also upgrade spokes and rims as they will have more forces, though not as much as the hub-motor. You will probably have to change your suspension settings as you will have more 'sprung' weight with the battery and motor (or go on a cabbage diet and drop the extra 10 or more kilos...) For both: Brakes, brakes, brakes!!! Get bigger discs and upgrade to hydraulic if you haven't already. Get the Hydraulic switches to plug into the controller to keep regen and to cut the power when braking.
@@OakleyTurvey I've actually experienced what i described in my last reply to you ...on a 12G spoked factory wheel. xD Once i settle on the softail body i will be using for it ...I will be switching to a mid drive. (I got burned on poridge...so now I'll even blow on yoghurt) No hate on my rear wheel hub, on 1500w it would hit almost 50km/h...but i am too big of a dude for it to survive every day usage. I will revive it at some point...when 38 hole 12G ebike rims become less of a rarity.
@@Thanos1908 :) Hope you survived the experience with not too much trauma. I'm looking forward to 80's BMX style mag wheels (full size of course) with standard sized fittings to take hub motors. This is the same evolution that motorcycles went through in the early days, transitioning from bicycle parts to heavy-duty, fit for purpose parts. Keep having fun and whatever you do, enjoy it is the main goal.
@@OakleyTurvey What do you think about electric motorcycle ; hub motor is better for e- motorcycle or mid drive ? ... Btw the hub motor motorcycle is single sided swing arm
I run fatbike geared hubs at 2.5kw peak, they will do 35mph in 'one' gear and climb a mountain, but the midrive eventually wins when it gets really steep.
I have build 2 full sus, 1 with hub and throttle only and another full sus with bbs02, and i love the hub, as i have not involved pas i can manualy use throttle to help pedalling and its so simple to use, bbs02 is like driving car with manual gearbox when u have to think of changing gears, uphill with hub and little help of pedalling can go any hill easy and not to worry on which gear i am or snapping chain damaging cassete...
I had 1500w hub drive motor it was nice piece of kit and not cheap it worked great but my I had a mid priced cube bike and my rear dropouts wear really worn down from this and my rear wheel came of while riding and snapped my disc brake and all bolts on it’s making them stuck in the motor which is why I switched to mid drive as for a bafang one it’s simple setup and easy to use
good info, it does seem like the mid drive people act snobbish, kinda like apple people versus everyone else. im about to build a rear hub bike, but i cant get info on what is compatible with what. are all controllers compatible with all hub motors and throttle, display, pas gear?
I'm considering a 350W rear hub motor from Geeko with a 36V 15Ah battery. do you think should go for the 500w 48v10ah version is it worth it i would have 100miles more on the 36v15ah
The chance of chain breakage weighs on my mind a lot with a mid drive , particularly if you have a powerful motor , I have a recumbent trike that is heavy and I’m a big dude , though it’s probably impractical, wouldn’t it be nice to have both. Maybe you could set it up so the hub does a bit more heavy lifting off the mark then the mid drive balances up when cruising saving the driveline ?
Mid drive are more suited to MTB's. the mid motor is generally more powerful helping you get up the hills to ride the trails down, and the 15mph limit is not a handicap but for a road or gravel bike the hub drive is the better option as you will regularly be pedalling at over the 15mph limit, resulting in far less motor drag.
It is probably my snobbery that makes me want a mid drive.. Today was the first day that I tested any bikes and all 3 were mid drives.. I should probably be fair and test some hub drives..
FYI you dont have to remove any tire to repair a puncture, just flip it over pull the tube and repair.. iv done it more times then i needed, when not packing tools back in the day before quick releases.
@@user-uc2dk1vp6e just pop the bead, pull only one side of the tire off the wheel, pull out the tube and repair.. as usual check for the cause of the leak, then stuff it back in like normal.. fairly easy and faster after practice
Can't wait to get to buy a fab bike love u and Andy 😂👌👍 question for yeah if I baught by ke of some one from shop Fido 4d what ever there called but problem is. I sent it back they come back with bike same problom I was told new battery went in now Wen I charged it the screen said full battrey and straight to one bar what cud it be battery 🔋
When you raced your mate and overtook him, did he up the gears or just stay at the lowest one? If he kept the gears low on the mid drive ofc you would catch up and overtake. Seems like a very unfair test to me considering the hub motors do not rely on changing gears and the mid drives do.
i'd say i agree with you, who buys an e-bike and never peddles? taking peddling into consideration the Hub motor will perform equally if not better without having to stop accelerating to switch gears, very inconvenient thing to do on a mid drive if you ask me. On top of that, they are more complex systems and put more strain on the sprocket, chain, and the freewheel. The extra weight on the back doesn't mean anything since all i'm doing with it is going from A to B.
Agreed about hub motor reliability, I've got 3 k on mine, 1 new rim, 1 new controller, eats rear tyres and front pads for breakfast.. But no motor issues... So far.. 🤞
On a direct drive hub motor you don't really have anything to go wrong through wear and tear except the sealed bearings in the middle and then its just a matter of random failings of electrical components which might not happen. Contrast that to a mid-drive motor with plastic cogs, belts, a tiny high speed motor geared down to drive the bottom bracket axle. There is a lot going on there and it has to handle not only the motor power but the rider power too going through the axle. There is so much wear and tear there. A geared hub motor is somewhere in between but still a much simpler design than a mid-drive motor. The fact mid-drive motors even work at all after hundreds of miles is a testimony to high quality engineering, you just don't need that precision with a hub motor, they can be made to much wider tolerances and still be much more reliable.
@@DudeStuff Also been kicking around the idea of adding a 12V20AH in series on a 48V system, assuming the controller can accept 60V... Thanks for your quick reply!
I had a front wheel hub motor on a MTB a few years ago i found the motor slowed down going up long hills and the wheel as very rigid and hard on bumps. Never tried the rear hub style. Recently got a Bafang BBSHD mid drive , put it on a carrera vengance from Halfords and its F-ing fantastic. I have 5 gears and moped like speed and acceleration. With enough power and low enough gearing riding up and down the Dales and Moors near me is easy.
One thing about pre-built mid-drive motor bikes is the huge depreciation of them. Mid-drive motors are expensive to maintain and can fail and be uneconomic to repair, this wipes out the investment in the bike not only for the motor system but often the custom frame too. Bosch also make their batteries with encrypted security so 3rd party batteries can't be sold that are compatible and they don't supply spares to 3rd parties except for basic service kits. So you've bought a £9k ebike, you've had 80% of the life of the battery after using your bike for 2 years, the motors failed and repair would cost over £1k and you are uncertain how long that repair will last and you'll be needing a new battery soon anyway which could be over £1000. Do you want to put £3k or more into the bike or cut your losses and buy the next shiny new thing. Just to clarify I'm not talking about bafang mid-drive motors I'm talking about the premium models like Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Mahle and Brose. Admittedly the brands I have most issues with are; Bosch, Mahle and Brose which seem to have reliability and lifespan concerns plus have restricted supply of parts.
My dad drove his 20'' hub driven E-Bike for 80,000 kilometers now...never a problem. Back in the day it did cost US600. And he still rides it as if it is new. I assumed it would maybe last 5,000 km.
Just planning my first build and am finding snobbery about Hub kits everywhere!! Is there a forum where I can gather knowledge where people speak openly about enjoying using Hub kits?
what setting you have it on in program 14 ? its about 1-50a, but what does it do, if i put in 15 or 40 what is the difference ? nobody knows or can explain it to me, can you plz ?
It's such an open ended questions. A non electric mountain bike could be considered enough to do off roading by many. Others buy almost powerless 250w ebikes for thousands and might be happy with that. How much do you want to spend and how much do you want to exercise is the question.
@@DudeStuff yeah I understand mate, I’ve found something called an ‘allegro 500w full sus mountain bike’ for £1140 which is a decent price. But a lot of people putting me off about the wattage and the fact it’s hub driven
I never rode a mid drive do they not make the battery last longer as I spoke to a guy who said he could get 120 miles from his battery which was the same size as mine where as I can only get like 50 at a push
That's just ridiculous. They get the same distance for the same wattage. The difference is that for mid drives you put more human power into the mix while at hubs without torque sensing you can ride without putting any effort in. That makes the difference. Physics doesn't change just because you have a middrive.
Surely that would be down to the components themselves. Shimano are now doing some stronger e-bike optimised chains and components. Early mid-drive bikes were using pretty standard chains and the mid-drive motors would chew through them pretty quickly. It's also how aggressively you ride and rider weight etc. A hub motor can actually massively extend the life of the chain and the drivetrain components because it's independent of those components. A hub motor can extend the life of such components roughly 3x or even more if you just ride on a throttle and pretty much never peddle yourself put 3x would be fair. Compare that to a mid-drive motor and that will massively shorten the life of those same components typically because now both motor power and rider power are going through the same chain.
@@SuperiorNo1 I'm a huge fan of Japanese engineering but not German engineering nowadays. Most German cars are at the bottom scale of reliability plus they charge up to 3x as much for their repairs. A bit too expensive for my tastes. To be honest if I was buying a mid-drive motor ebike it would have to be Bafang, Shimano or Yamaha motor based.I put Bafang first as spares are easy and cheaply obtained (I realise they are Chinese not Japanese). To me quality engineering is reliability but I realise to others it might be top speed or acceleration. German cars and reliability do not go together nowadays. Rubbish cars for the brand snobs. web.archive.org/web/20210430103028/www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer
@@bonzobanana1 it's funny how mid drives are recommended for heavy riders. I think some bike shops and mechanics just want their money. I wear out my cassette and chain without an engine pretty quickly and I'm not a terrible shifter lol. But I weigh 300 pounds. Everytime I shift I try to be as careful as can be. A mid drive sounds worrisome.
Myth... a buncher is not harder to fix on a hub drive. Just dont remove the wheel. Pull the tube out the side without chain (left) patch it and stick it back in. I my life i never removed a wheel to patch a tube and at 55yo, that's 45 years patching tubes with a tire iron a patch kit and a pump.
That sounds great but I found an even better way a few years ago, I bought some solid foam inner tubes to put in my tires and I've never had a flat tire since. It rides a little bit harder than air but I quickly got used to it and it's been a dream to not worry about flats ever again.
cheers for the video mate im going to get an ebike next week and was on the fence about which type but am sold more on the hub drive now 👍 im a somewhat portly chap and read the hub drives a better at hauling loads
You're not afraid to shake things up about common opinion, and I like that 😉 The snobbery is real, and the assumption is that every mid drive is better than every hub drive. But in the real world, all it takes is someone looking down their nose suddenly getting a reality check when they find out your "cheap hub motor" has 110nm of torque, can accelerate up a 22% grade, and has a cruising speed over 50kph. Even with a Phaserunner and dual Tesla batteries (39.2Ah total), it still costs less than most mid drives. The owner of a company that makes mid-drive bikes dis-invited me to their group rides after I powered up a berm that was too much for his bike.
a hubs speed is limited by the voltage you supply (the rpm per volt known as the kv of the motor) a mid drive uses the gears to reach a higher top speed, when the mid drive is at its rpm limit (the voltage you supply) the gearing multiplies the max rpm of the motor. The unsprung weight with a hub is a massive draw back on or off road and the amount of punctures because of the extra weight on the wheel . Just carry a spare chain or a quick link with a mid drive and you will always get home
You're ignoring the RPM difference. Mid drives have a much lower RPM because they're depending on using a mechanical advantage with the gears. Hub drives have a much higher RPM and use internal gears. I don't really think either is "better" but as stated in the video there are pros and cons. But what I can GUARANTEE is 99.9% of people don't ride their bike hard enough to even matter, they just like the idea of having a bike that CAN do those things. I'm from the car world as well and I'll tell you the amount of people that jack up their trucks/Jeeps and drop 10k+ on off-road upgrades is about 100 to 1 or more. The most those off-road vehicles will ever see is parking in their friends front during 4th of July. The average person isn't jumping their shit off 20 foot jumps.
@@Tiralful not all hubs are geared the high power hubs are generally direct drive and as already stated by using the gears you multiply the max rpm of the middrive.
at lower power levels (around 500W) you can really tell the difference in hill climbing / torque and battery consumption. that is why mid drives shine on bicycles (not motorcycles 😀). i changed to a bbs02 and have far better effeciency and torque than on my old geared hub running 25A@48V. obviously chains and cogs suffer, 10 speed cogs get smashed by the chain, I need to switch to the thicker 9 speed cogs. chain waxing pretty much resolves the chain wear issue which is super common on mid drives. typically a chain is for the garbage after 800km, with proper waxing it will last 4-5 times longer
Question... Will a hub-drive work with a mid-drive on the same bike with dual throttles? What I'd like to do is put the 750W hub motor on the front of a BeeCool Challenger, then put a mid-drive on the back wheel, Giving me both options plus AWD. Another thought, Is it possible to use a CVT on a mid-drive ebike? Chains are loud and they break. Transmissions are mechanical, heavy and expensive. CVT's are lightweight, cheap, quiet and seem like the perfect solution...?
For over two years I have run a mid drive system with a rear hub motor on the other end of the chain. Why? Heat problems on the hills disappear as well as range anxiety. A separate 72v30ah battery feeds each system and dependability doubles. The answer to which is better is simply BOTH!!!
What do you think about the spoke maintenance on a hub where power is directly transferred through spokes vs a mid that used the power from the drivetrain
Never had a issue with them working loose on the tension, or snapping, but thankfully have ordered a few spare spokes as bought a better quality hub motor and company sell spare parts and in stock. You just have to be careful the motor you order as some you can’t get spokes for and other spare parts. It really depends on your built as I just custom built my bikes rather hub, or mid drive as can fix as needed without worrying about getting parts, or manufacturers locking batteries and other parts down by means of encryption and pairing parts to controller, or don’t sell parts to 3rd party. I never buy a prebuilt bike or any bike with bosch mid drive kit, or battery for very reason. You can’t repair them on your own. Unacceptable for a bike that can cost several thousands of dollars. Especially considering it a bike and it going to break and parts are going to deteriorate over time with use. It like buying a car and can’t repair it or take it to a mechanic shop as they can’t fix it due to no parts available, or software lock and only dealer can but half the time parts are back ordered, or cost more to fix then to get a new one, or you get a idiot that states not repairable and maybe just a $15 component is bad. Reason why for Right to Repair.
Thanks for the great info! I have a YW bends artiface and want to convert it to electric assist. Not sure what I will choose just yet but your info got me thinking more into it. What kit would you recommend. I’m considering a bafang mid drive 1000w or 750w battery. New to your channel but Dude Stuff rocks! ✌️ from USA
Mid drive allows you to build bike with thru axles! Mid drives allows you to use the gearing. Higher power 5k hub all the way, except qs 138 or lightning rod big block.
I absolutely love hub motors I've had loads over the past 18 years I've never had a midrive to compare but I know they are efficient but it comes at a high price man my 1000w hub is on a lightweight Muddyfox Anarchy 100 it's super fast so I sail past midrives fantastic blog Steve
What i like on hub motor it has engine brakes to add more braking power and it will save your brake pads. Unlike on mid drive you cant install an engine brake.
Great vid Steve. I was thinking about doing a similar vid comparing mid drive and hub motors but I think yours hits the nail on the head. One additional positive for hub motors is that you can technically run them chainless (provided its cadence sensor based not torque sensor based). Keep up the vids mate 👍
fixing a puncture on a hub drive is alot more difficult when your halfway home, its dark and raining and impossible if you need to swap out a tube and dont have your big spanner handy. This was my experience with a hub drive and the reason why i switched to mid drive, otherwise i think the hub motor felt better over all
Sounds like the cyclist is the TORQUE component on a HUB DRIVE setup because the motor struggles to turn the wheel being in the CENTER/hub obviously not as easy to turn from the center but like you said the cyclist easily makes up the TORQUE...very interesting that you have so much torque over the motor
Pros - Hub Drive - Less integrated means easier to maintain (tire change is NOT an issue) - No need for special bike frame Cons - - Generally Hub Drive 'system' weigh more than Mid-drives (more integrated but more expensive) - CG is more important than weight, because shift in CG to the back means 'more pumpy + less comfortable rides' (If you want more grip on rear, you shift your body, not the bike) - You loose the ability to use "hub gears" , get go and ride, less maintenance (CG will not be as bad if adding mid-drive along with hub gear)
aftermarket middrives just slot into most frames through the original bottom bracket where your pedals were it's easier to just take your back wheel off and change your tire on a middrive (depends on the bike i guess) but normally you can just drop your wheel out without worrying about any cables. just have to make sure your brake isn't in the way you're talking about the expensive overpriced motors like Bosch (even being European, i vote against the overpriced standard motors and batteries) the problem isn't quite that middrives are more expensive, nor the batteries, the problem is that the main brands sold in stores are way overpriced and profit off of the fact that Shimano and Bosch are "big" names, i'd say that Bafang middrives are generally better quality and cheaper. the only disadvantage with Bafang is that they don't sell aftermarket torque sensing ones except for special frames, which is unfortunate as that could be a pretty big market for them, but last years they focus more on OEM like Bosch etc €1 for 1Wh, talk about fuckery, you can build a battery with 1kWh supporting more power for about €250 and it'll be at least as safe if you know what you're doing/your expertise is electronics, as i said just overpriced garbage as they want to make as much profit as possible in the ebike world the batteries and middrives from Bosch & Shimano are basically the Apple of ebike motors and batteries (price wise), i don't like either of the 3. Bosch is great for power tools and home appliances, Shimano for drivetrain (shifters, cassettes etc) but not for motors IMO
You can have the best break calipers on a mid hub cuz the best calipers are mostly double pistol hydraulic that usually dont fit between most very thick back wheel hubs.
I have a QS 5K hub motor as a mid-drive. It tops out at 42 mph at 84v but it can pull tree stumps out of the ground. I guess you can call it a "Mid-Hub-Drive-Motor. Best of both worlds, 'lol. You should build one with Andy and see off you can keep the front wheel on the ground. lol
Electric motors are horrendously inefficient at low rpm.. And guess what.. it's always low rpm in a wheel. Its turning at the speed of the wheel. The only thing a direct drive hub has over a mid drive is reliability.. other than that the mid drive wins on every single metric. Anyone who thinks they know different is probably not an engineer and cant grasp the physics at play.. I design bike motors for a living. Hubs and mids. Videos like this make painful watching 😬
I bought the cheapest ebike I could for £580 250w to 350w and while it's good I would love something abit more powerful 👍 Would need a better battery first though!
If your talking upper limits of performance, then mid drives have more potential in terms of performance, they are far more power dense. But hub motors are just so damn reliable and cheap, well provided you don't abuse the crap out of them and actually install them correctly. I will always use a hub on road and for some off road, my qs205 had done 40k miles before I sold it and It never once failed me doing fast food deliveries. Even my cheapy 500w hub motor that I have now is very reliable. They are just so cheap and cheerful, easy to setup for most people and are uncomplicated. If the sten gun was reincarnated as a motor, it would become a hub motor!
AM Racing AMR 250-90 Single AC Motor - Liquid Cooled, Permanent Magnet - Remy Cartridge 360v 210bhp with a 150kw controller 10.000rpm but they cost 10 grand
I diy my mid drive put the dinner plate hub motor came from "romai mini eagle e bike" in the mid of the frame fabricate a freewheel crank men i tell you it has a crazy amount of torque at low gears and super fast in high gear i got a 20 inch folding bike.
You forgot to put the disc brake clearance issues as a con for Hub Motors. I have yet to get the bottom of this issue. I know there's a work around for it. Haven't found it yet.
I commute a lot with ebike and can say one thing. For commuting direct hub is the way to go. I had once chain snapped and other day deraileur got in the whel and was totally destroyed and in both cases i could get to work with no problem, wasnt even late. With hubs you have 2 separate drives. Not to mention its waaaay more reliable and almost maintenance free. You just need good big tires to avoid punctures.
Biggest problem I have found with a hub motor is with the weight on the back wheel is punchers. You need to run high pressure in the back tyre or any little bump can result in a flat.
@@Mywifetoldmetochangemyname You have to understand. To him high pressure is probably what the manufacturer recommends and what you and I would consider medium pressure lol.
Mid drive by a long shot, you get a 750w mid drive against a 750w hub and start at bottom of hill and see who gets to top first, power to power mid drive rules, those hubs always cause problems off road over time.
Love the vids , keep' em coming . I have the 1500 - 2000 watt ekirbebike kit , in one of the previous comment , a guy was asking on how to gain more power from it , would you be able to recommend a controller ?
3 года назад+7
I think you are missing that mid drives with torque sensor feel way more natural with just pedal assist.
Great video and thoughts, thank you! I am overweight and live in partial steep hilly surroundings. Thus, I've chosen to buy mid drive e-bikes, since my concerns were broken spokes and not being able to surmount steep slopes. Otherwise, I would have chosen a hub motor, especially when riding a speed-pedelec. Another disadvantage of direct drive hub motors is the resistance as soon as they aren't supplied with electric power. Since in Europe normal e-bikes are per decree forced to curb the electric power supply after reaching 25 km/h, the drag on direct drives is too big when riding the e-bike without power assistance , which I always like to do while riding on plains. And here is another disadvantage concerning hub motors: they aren't suitable for full suspension bikes, since the back wheel should be as light as possible for allowing the suspension to work properly. NB: To protect the spokes on e-bikes with hub motors or the engine and drivetrain on e-bikes with mid-motors I would never accelerate too fast but begin the ride with little or no power supply whenever possible, adding it step by step after reaching a little bit of speed.
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TLDR:
= Hub Drive
Probably one of my favorite ebikes to date was a 500w geared hub drive, it's all debatable
Thank you very well explained, I personally hate the fact that EMTB have made people believe mid drive are better when they have so many cons and are only better for very specific things like MTB. Hub drive motor are far superior for anything but hardcore MTB.
that's not true, neither physically nor based on real products. you have to keep in mind that most people only use bikes in the legal 250W range. In most countries, motors with more than 500W are useless because they cannot be used in everyday life. if you compare here, a hub motor has no real chance because the disadvantages outweigh. Hubs only have advantages in the illegal range from 1000/1500W and more, because there are almost no corresponding mid-drive solutions. And these are no longer bicycles. If you compare real products, for example a mid drive with 250W/1000W peak and a hub with 250W/1000W peak. the mid drive will win. Even if the hub has a gearbox. Less weight, higher efficiency, better operating conditions, finer dosing control,, better weight distribution, less heat, easier maintenance of the mid drive, stronger, better and cheaper gearbox at the same time. Mid drive has only one disadvantage, the wear of the chain. but you can swap them out in minutes. But repair a hub wheel when the spokes are broken...much more work.
Think what happens to an engine.....
The rider pedals with a cadence of 80.
The rear wheel spins at 60rpm
The mid drive runs at 3000rpm at the same time
but
what rpm does the "typical" hub run at? 60.... and what does that mean for an engine? especially if the rpms drop even further.
In real world conditions with real products within legal laws, on a Pedelec, the mid drive motor will almost always deliver significantly better handling, with better control and performance.
For the Hub Motor to win, you have to construct tests that focus on the advantage of a hub. for example an acceleration sprint. Because the mid drive is initially slowed down by the gearbox, while the hub can rotate fully from the first.
Keep in mind, the 250 W limit is the average over 30 minutes, there is no limit on instantaneous power. And since the conditions aren't specified, limits are made up. You'll find the same motor labelled for either 250 W or 500 W.
As long as the motor is labelled for the power it's legally allowed to have, you're not exceeding 25 km/h (or 45 km/h for s-Pedelecs) and you don't have a throttle that can be used without pedalling, you'll be fine.
AMEN Brother Troy! I own a 2 wheel drive, 2 battery (Samsung) dual suspension EMTB (E-CELLS Super Monarch Crown). For hunting and camping miles into Nevada's interior I want the RELIABILITY of hub drive in case I could not fix a broken chain. It is a CARGO EMTB that can haul up to 400 pounds (including my weight but excluding the bike's 95 pound weight)
**->AS WELL next year I may change out my 2 BAFANG motors for 2 GRIN Technology - a Canadian company - hub motors WITH REGENERATIVE BRAKING!
GRIN will soon have their motors integrated with the new FREEGEN Israeli invented regen system. It ONLY regenerates electricity when you brake. When not braking you pedal or FREEWHEEL. Thus the name FREEGEN. This also requires a GRIN controller and GRIN display screen.
@@raziel8321 thanks for your comment your point of view is very interesting i am definitely not an expert on this
I really enjoyed listening to your dog snore throughout this video.
This video answered every question i had on the pros and cons. I have searched and found several different answers but the side by side race proved to me yes i have decided on the hub drive. I will also order the one he is talking about. I do light trail rides and mostly paved or gravel paths so i am not worried about the extra weight in the rear wheel, i will not be jumping the bike off of anything......MOST PEOPLE DONT ANYWAY. Thanks for the video this was very helpful.
good luck with the fist steep 40 degree hill you come across
Bad news. This guy has little to know real understanding of what hes talking about. He doesn't understand the engineering or physics involved in either motor type
@@thehound8125 oh dear,please stop pretending to know what you don't know.
This video addresses most concerns regarding hub & mid drives that most of us want to know........how the motors work in REAL world situations.I own a toseven midrive on a straggler and a 1500w hub on my ECR ,I agree with this guys conclusions.....Hubs are simpler ,more reliable and more suitable for most of us.
@@wcgebnim alex from toseven, we make both types of motor and hes right. This video isn't a good explanation of either
@@Alex-uh1mj hello Alex ,I don't think the video was supposed to be an explanation of how they work.Just one man's experience after riding a range of options,for those new to ebike motors making their initial choice.
Loving th DM02,very quiet,good build quality,very happy.
Not only do you make nutty bikes but you're a vinyl junkie on the wheels of steel like myself. Salute
the one big advantage of an e-motor-> direct and efficient power application to the weel, no way or reason to buy a chain busting mid-drive, and you can have regen Breaking, which is nice regarding wear and tear on the breaking pads
I run a bafang 750watt mid.
It's brilliant many befits.
Compered to a hub motor.
like which, other than weight distribution?@@JohnMckeeman-j1y
Fuckin awesome man, ! I ride my 250 watt front hub rig for off road trailing, I know you think 250w is wank , but am a veteran still going roady (not dead yet) so dont really want my Kona MTB to do everything for me, so it is genuine 2 wheel drive, battery is low slung, as is front hub, its kind of coincidental it just works perfectly ( for my rig) the handling and straight line stability is fing awesome, and with the throttle i can get 21 mph on dry tarmac, and am 14 stone.
What gets the most range tgats my biggest deciding factor.mid drive obviously better offroad but im just commuting distances. Cool comparison
Will it depends how far you're riding, how you ride, the terrain, the wind etc etc. Personally if I was commuting and just wanted a chill smooth ride I'd go mid drive all day. If you're work place is not that far away I wouldn't even worry much about range
@@DudeStuff sound Bud take it easy n keep the videos coming ,great content
Your dog was snoring in the background 🤣🤣🤣👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
I have watched quite a few of your videos and like them.thiz is one of your best ones though.very informative
It's glad that you specified that you are talking about powerful hub motors.
People usually search for 250-500 w (750 max) hub motors and they are completely different story. 1-2k w hub motors are different beast.
Whether it's Geared or gearless hub is also important.
and a 750 watt mid-drive will walk all over 1-2kw hub motors up hills and still be legal
I'm all for hub drives but they're not bicycles to me they do not use the bikes gear system
@@TheAgentAssassinWith the same controller maybe with a controller that can give all the power to the hub motor it needs it will wipe a mid drive
I want to know the names of the fastest e-bikes with mid hub motors and with the most towing capacity and trike with rear hub motors??
Thanks. Refreshingly unbiased review.
I have built several ebikes and have nearly 10,000 kms on one of them (a hub drive) with little maintenance needed. One issue you touched on (unsprung mass) is definitely something to consider if doing serious MTB, but as you also said...most people just claim they are when in fact they are just out on some woodland paths (just like most 4x4s are never taken off the tarmac). Mine is just a touring bike and test-bed for future builds. I have had to ride 20 kms on a Sunday on motor only, when a pedal bearing collapsed. Another occasion I'd worn out a chain when away from home and far from the shops.
One big plus for most mid-drives is to have the controller built into the motor and therefore protected from the elements. I have always bought hub drives with the controller built in (only available for 1000w and up). Never any problems with waterproofing even in UK weather.
Like you say they are different and it's horses-for-courses...
Too much snobbery from people trying to justify to themselves why they spent so much on their toys. Forget the price, just enjoy them.
Rear wheel hubs are prone to having their rims damaged due to the load distribution. A decent pothole/speedbump can end your ebike ride there and then.
@@Thanos1908 So true. There are many things to consider that people looking for the cheapest deal just overlook. You can't just use 'normal' bike parts for an ebike.
For Hub motor you need:
thicker spokes (I'd recommend oversized nipples - never a bad thing :) -or a custom washer to spread the forces), dual-wall rims, and must be careful of the spoke lacing pattern too as this will affect strength (remember the distance for the spokes is shorter due to the size of the hub.)
For mid-drive:
consider upgrading chain and sprockets as you have more force going through them. You should also upgrade spokes and rims as they will have more forces, though not as much as the hub-motor. You will probably have to change your suspension settings as you will have more 'sprung' weight with the battery and motor (or go on a cabbage diet and drop the extra 10 or more kilos...)
For both:
Brakes, brakes, brakes!!!
Get bigger discs and upgrade to hydraulic if you haven't already. Get the Hydraulic switches to plug into the controller to keep regen and to cut the power when braking.
@@OakleyTurvey I've actually experienced what i described in my last reply to you ...on a 12G spoked factory wheel. xD
Once i settle on the softail body i will be using for it ...I will be switching to a mid drive. (I got burned on poridge...so now I'll even blow on yoghurt)
No hate on my rear wheel hub, on 1500w it would hit almost 50km/h...but i am too big of a dude for it to survive every day usage. I will revive it at some point...when 38 hole 12G ebike rims become less of a rarity.
@@Thanos1908 :)
Hope you survived the experience with not too much trauma.
I'm looking forward to 80's BMX style mag wheels (full size of course) with standard sized fittings to take hub motors. This is the same evolution that motorcycles went through in the early days, transitioning from bicycle parts to heavy-duty, fit for purpose parts.
Keep having fun and whatever you do, enjoy it is the main goal.
@@OakleyTurvey
What do you think about electric motorcycle ; hub motor is better for e- motorcycle or mid drive ? ... Btw the hub motor motorcycle is single sided swing arm
I run fatbike geared hubs at 2.5kw peak, they will do 35mph in 'one' gear and climb a mountain, but the midrive eventually wins when it gets really steep.
Very good assessment brother. For road commuting (the MAJORITY of cycling) hub drive is obviously the choice.
I really wish they make thru axle hum motors
Great video..but slightly distracted by the sound of snoring in background 😴 😀 🤣
I have build 2 full sus, 1 with hub and throttle only and another full sus with bbs02, and i love the hub, as i have not involved pas i can manualy use throttle to help pedalling and its so simple to use, bbs02 is like driving car with manual gearbox when u have to think of changing gears, uphill with hub and little help of pedalling can go any hill easy and not to worry on which gear i am or snapping chain damaging cassete...
I had 1500w hub drive motor it was nice piece of kit and not cheap it worked great but my I had a mid priced cube bike and my rear dropouts wear really worn down from this and my rear wheel came of while riding and snapped my disc brake and all bolts on it’s making them stuck in the motor which is why I switched to mid drive as for a bafang one it’s simple setup and easy to use
good info, it does seem like the mid drive people act snobbish, kinda like apple people versus everyone else. im about to build a rear hub bike, but i cant get info on what is compatible with what. are all controllers compatible with all hub motors and throttle, display, pas gear?
I'm considering a 350W rear hub motor from Geeko with a 36V 15Ah battery.
do you think should go for the 500w 48v10ah version is it worth it i would have 100miles more on the 36v15ah
Cheers for the video, get overview. You have convinced me to get a mid drive
The chance of chain breakage weighs on my mind a lot with a mid drive , particularly if you have a powerful motor , I have a recumbent trike that is heavy and I’m a big dude , though it’s probably impractical, wouldn’t it be nice to have both.
Maybe you could set it up so the hub does a bit more heavy lifting off the mark then the mid drive balances up when cruising saving the driveline ?
Mid drive are more suited to MTB's. the mid motor is generally more powerful helping you get up the hills to ride the trails down, and the 15mph limit is not a handicap but for a road or gravel bike the hub drive is the better option as you will regularly be pedalling at over the 15mph limit, resulting in far less motor drag.
this video has helped me make up my mind on what im going to get!
It is probably my snobbery that makes me want a mid drive.. Today was the first day that I tested any bikes and all 3 were mid drives.. I should probably be fair and test some hub drives..
FYI you dont have to remove any tire to repair a puncture, just flip it over pull the tube and repair.. iv done it more times then i needed, when not packing tools back in the day before quick releases.
Well said.
How
@@user-uc2dk1vp6e just pop the bead, pull only one side of the tire off the wheel, pull out the tube and repair.. as usual check for the cause of the leak, then stuff it back in like normal.. fairly easy and faster after practice
Can't wait to get to buy a fab bike love u and Andy 😂👌👍 question for yeah if I baught by ke of some one from shop Fido 4d what ever there called but problem is. I sent it back they come back with bike same problom I was told new battery went in now Wen I charged it the screen said full battrey and straight to one bar what cud it be battery 🔋
When you raced your mate and overtook him, did he up the gears or just stay at the lowest one? If he kept the gears low on the mid drive ofc you would catch up and overtake. Seems like a very unfair test to me considering the hub motors do not rely on changing gears and the mid drives do.
i'd say i agree with you, who buys an e-bike and never peddles? taking peddling into consideration the Hub motor will perform equally if not better without having to stop accelerating to switch gears, very inconvenient thing to do on a mid drive if you ask me. On top of that, they are more complex systems and put more strain on the sprocket, chain, and the freewheel. The extra weight on the back doesn't mean anything since all i'm doing with it is going from A to B.
Yes. You have to stop putting power through cuz the gears actually make a difference
Changing gears on a bicycle is very inconvenient?
Nice video m8. Iv got a 1500w hub and I’m working on a 750w mid drive atm.
I’ll be comparing them when it’s finished.
please make a video 👍
Wth I had no idea you train dude I’m impressed 😮
Agreed about hub motor reliability, I've got 3 k on mine, 1 new rim, 1 new controller, eats rear tyres and front pads for breakfast.. But no motor issues... So far.. 🤞
12k on mine
On a direct drive hub motor you don't really have anything to go wrong through wear and tear except the sealed bearings in the middle and then its just a matter of random failings of electrical components which might not happen. Contrast that to a mid-drive motor with plastic cogs, belts, a tiny high speed motor geared down to drive the bottom bracket axle. There is a lot going on there and it has to handle not only the motor power but the rider power too going through the axle. There is so much wear and tear there. A geared hub motor is somewhere in between but still a much simpler design than a mid-drive motor. The fact mid-drive motors even work at all after hundreds of miles is a testimony to high quality engineering, you just don't need that precision with a hub motor, they can be made to much wider tolerances and still be much more reliable.
Add regen it took my pads feom 400 km to over 3000
Regen is king.
They say, the higher the voltage, the faster the motor... Will a 48v system push a 750w36v mid-drive faster than a 750w48v mid-drive?
yes in general volts equals speed but also the middle man, the controller could potentially undo that
@@DudeStuff Also been kicking around the idea of adding a 12V20AH in series on a 48V system, assuming the controller can accept 60V... Thanks for your quick reply!
I am looking at a trike and is it possible to use more than one hub motor.
I had a front wheel hub motor on a MTB a few years ago i found the motor slowed down going up long hills and the wheel as very rigid and hard on bumps. Never tried the rear hub style. Recently got a Bafang BBSHD mid drive , put it on a carrera vengance from Halfords and its F-ing fantastic. I have 5 gears and moped like speed and acceleration. With enough power and low enough gearing riding up and down the Dales and Moors near me is easy.
One thing about pre-built mid-drive motor bikes is the huge depreciation of them. Mid-drive motors are expensive to maintain and can fail and be uneconomic to repair, this wipes out the investment in the bike not only for the motor system but often the custom frame too. Bosch also make their batteries with encrypted security so 3rd party batteries can't be sold that are compatible and they don't supply spares to 3rd parties except for basic service kits. So you've bought a £9k ebike, you've had 80% of the life of the battery after using your bike for 2 years, the motors failed and repair would cost over £1k and you are uncertain how long that repair will last and you'll be needing a new battery soon anyway which could be over £1000. Do you want to put £3k or more into the bike or cut your losses and buy the next shiny new thing. Just to clarify I'm not talking about bafang mid-drive motors I'm talking about the premium models like Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano, Mahle and Brose. Admittedly the brands I have most issues with are; Bosch, Mahle and Brose which seem to have reliability and lifespan concerns plus have restricted supply of parts.
I have both systems. I use mid drive for offroad and a mid drive going to work.
My dad drove his 20'' hub driven E-Bike for 80,000 kilometers now...never a problem. Back in the day it did cost US600. And he still rides it as if it is new. I assumed it would maybe last 5,000 km.
Just planning my first build and am finding snobbery about Hub kits everywhere!! Is there a forum where I can gather knowledge where people speak openly about enjoying using Hub kits?
what setting you have it on in program 14 ? its about 1-50a, but what does it do, if i put in 15 or 40 what is the difference ? nobody knows or can explain it to me, can you plz ?
great video also was your dog snoring next to ya??? haha
Yes my dog lol
Is a 500w hub motor enough to do off road biking up hills and all sorts?
It's such an open ended questions. A non electric mountain bike could be considered enough to do off roading by many. Others buy almost powerless 250w ebikes for thousands and might be happy with that. How much do you want to spend and how much do you want to exercise is the question.
@@DudeStuff yeah I understand mate, I’ve found something called an ‘allegro 500w full sus mountain bike’ for £1140 which is a decent price. But a lot of people putting me off about the wattage and the fact it’s hub driven
@@DudeStuff I’ll be going out with my friend who’s got a 500w mid driven bike… just don’t want to be trailing behind really as they are really torquey
@@woppo1408 so your question is how do I keep up with my mate on his ebike 🤪
@@DudeStuff sort of yes aha, it’s weather I should spend my money else where aha
I never rode a mid drive do they not make the battery last longer as I spoke to a guy who said he could get 120 miles from his battery which was the same size as mine where as I can only get like 50 at a push
Middrives get 40 to 60 percent more distance using same size battery.
@@frago1969 wow didn’t know that cheers
That's just ridiculous. They get the same distance for the same wattage. The difference is that for mid drives you put more human power into the mix while at hubs without torque sensing you can ride without putting any effort in. That makes the difference. Physics doesn't change just because you have a middrive.
Mid Drive chains snapping is another myth mine Has almost 2k km still No issues some people say they Had 8000w Mid Drive and No chain snaps 😈
Surely that would be down to the components themselves. Shimano are now doing some stronger e-bike optimised chains and components. Early mid-drive bikes were using pretty standard chains and the mid-drive motors would chew through them pretty quickly. It's also how aggressively you ride and rider weight etc. A hub motor can actually massively extend the life of the chain and the drivetrain components because it's independent of those components. A hub motor can extend the life of such components roughly 3x or even more if you just ride on a throttle and pretty much never peddle yourself put 3x would be fair. Compare that to a mid-drive motor and that will massively shorten the life of those same components typically because now both motor power and rider power are going through the same chain.
@@bonzobanana1 Shimano are Superior since there Japanese 😊anything German or Japanese and your Good to Go 😈
@@SuperiorNo1 I'm a huge fan of Japanese engineering but not German engineering nowadays. Most German cars are at the bottom scale of reliability plus they charge up to 3x as much for their repairs. A bit too expensive for my tastes. To be honest if I was buying a mid-drive motor ebike it would have to be Bafang, Shimano or Yamaha motor based.I put Bafang first as spares are easy and cheaply obtained (I realise they are Chinese not Japanese). To me quality engineering is reliability but I realise to others it might be top speed or acceleration. German cars and reliability do not go together nowadays. Rubbish cars for the brand snobs.
web.archive.org/web/20210430103028/www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer
@@bonzobanana1 it's funny how mid drives are recommended for heavy riders. I think some bike shops and mechanics just want their money. I wear out my cassette and chain without an engine pretty quickly and I'm not a terrible shifter lol. But I weigh 300 pounds. Everytime I shift I try to be as careful as can be. A mid drive sounds worrisome.
Myth... a buncher is not harder to fix on a hub drive. Just dont remove the wheel. Pull the tube out the side without chain (left) patch it and stick it back in. I my life i never removed a wheel to patch a tube and at 55yo, that's 45 years patching tubes with a tire iron a patch kit and a pump.
Teach!
That sounds great but I found an even better way a few years ago, I bought some solid foam inner tubes to put in my tires and I've never had a flat tire since.
It rides a little bit harder than air but I quickly got used to it and it's been a dream to not worry about flats ever again.
@@russellm7530 best tip ever! did not even know they exist
cheers for the video mate im going to get an ebike next week and was on the fence about which type but am sold more on the hub drive now 👍 im a somewhat portly chap and read the hub drives a better at hauling loads
Another hub motor pro is you can run 2 hub motors and fly up hills
Is the mid drive owner shifting gears past the sprint? He appears to no shift after the sprint to 15mph
My main concern with a mid drive, is you jave to lose your rear manual gears, don't you?
You're not afraid to shake things up about common opinion, and I like that 😉
The snobbery is real, and the assumption is that every mid drive is better than every hub drive. But in the real world, all it takes is someone looking down their nose suddenly getting a reality check when they find out your "cheap hub motor" has 110nm of torque, can accelerate up a 22% grade, and has a cruising speed over 50kph. Even with a Phaserunner and dual Tesla batteries (39.2Ah total), it still costs less than most mid drives. The owner of a company that makes mid-drive bikes dis-invited me to their group rides after I powered up a berm that was too much for his bike.
But name a decent bike company that makes hub drives?
@@jbloggs751 Grin technologies
Thank You For a balanced and Educated View
a hubs speed is limited by the voltage you supply (the rpm per volt known as the kv of the motor) a mid drive uses the gears to reach a higher top speed, when the mid drive is at its rpm limit (the voltage you supply) the gearing multiplies the max rpm of the motor. The unsprung weight with a hub is a massive draw back on or off road and the amount of punctures because of the extra weight on the wheel . Just carry a spare chain or a quick link with a mid drive and you will always get home
You're ignoring the RPM difference. Mid drives have a much lower RPM because they're depending on using a mechanical advantage with the gears. Hub drives have a much higher RPM and use internal gears. I don't really think either is "better" but as stated in the video there are pros and cons. But what I can GUARANTEE is 99.9% of people don't ride their bike hard enough to even matter, they just like the idea of having a bike that CAN do those things. I'm from the car world as well and I'll tell you the amount of people that jack up their trucks/Jeeps and drop 10k+ on off-road upgrades is about 100 to 1 or more. The most those off-road vehicles will ever see is parking in their friends front during 4th of July.
The average person isn't jumping their shit off 20 foot jumps.
@@Tiralful not all hubs are geared the high power hubs are generally direct drive and as already stated by using the gears you multiply the max rpm of the middrive.
at lower power levels (around 500W) you can really tell the difference in hill climbing / torque and battery consumption. that is why mid drives shine on bicycles (not motorcycles 😀). i changed to a bbs02 and have far better effeciency and torque than on my old geared hub running 25A@48V. obviously chains and cogs suffer, 10 speed cogs get smashed by the chain, I need to switch to the thicker 9 speed cogs. chain waxing pretty much resolves the chain wear issue which is super common on mid drives. typically a chain is for the garbage after 800km, with proper waxing it will last 4-5 times longer
Mid Drive chains snapping is another myth mine Has almost 2k km still No issues some people say they Had 8000w Mid Drive and No chain snaps 😈
@@SuperiorNo1 no chain snap either with my setup, but wear due to abrasion is an issue, especially with an oiled chain.
@@JoLe1991 Oil is the Best Lubricant i tried Dry oil it was Horrific made Bike sound like something out of a skip!! 😈
@@SuperiorNo1 clean oil yes, dirty oil no. Wax has lower stiction and repels dirt. a chain is constantly blasted with dirt when riding
@@JoLe1991 Who the fuck would put Dirty oil on!? Wax Doesn't last as long as oil 😈
Question... Will a hub-drive work with a mid-drive on the same bike with dual throttles? What I'd like to do is put the 750W hub motor on the front of a BeeCool Challenger, then put a mid-drive on the back wheel, Giving me both options plus AWD. Another thought, Is it possible to use a CVT on a mid-drive ebike? Chains are loud and they break. Transmissions are mechanical, heavy and expensive. CVT's are lightweight, cheap, quiet and seem like the perfect solution...?
yes 100%
@@TheAgentAssassin yes on hub/mid drive combo? Or yes on the CVT question?
For over two years I have run a mid drive system with a rear hub motor on the other end of the chain. Why? Heat problems on the hills disappear as well as range anxiety. A separate 72v30ah battery feeds each system and dependability doubles. The answer to which is better is simply BOTH!!!
Wow, I want one. just add a front hub system too.😁😁😁 make sure you get that 3 motor ebike on youtube sir. I really want to see.
I kinda wanna put a hub on front and back now
Please show us
Make a vid man!
what's the weight?
What do you think about the spoke maintenance on a hub where power is directly transferred through spokes vs a mid that used the power from the drivetrain
I've never had a single issue with them to be honest
Never had a issue with them working loose on the tension, or snapping, but thankfully have ordered a few spare spokes as bought a better quality hub motor and company sell spare parts and in stock. You just have to be careful the motor you order as some you can’t get spokes for and other spare parts.
It really depends on your built as I just custom built my bikes rather hub, or mid drive as can fix as needed without worrying about getting parts, or manufacturers locking batteries and other parts down by means of encryption and pairing parts to controller, or don’t sell parts to 3rd party. I never buy a prebuilt bike or any bike with bosch mid drive kit, or battery for very reason. You can’t repair them on your own. Unacceptable for a bike that can cost several thousands of dollars. Especially considering it a bike and it going to break and parts are going to deteriorate over time with use. It like buying a car and can’t repair it or take it to a mechanic shop as they can’t fix it due to no parts available, or software lock and only dealer can but half the time parts are back ordered, or cost more to fix then to get a new one, or you get a idiot that states not repairable and maybe just a $15 component is bad. Reason why for Right to Repair.
Thanks for the great info! I have a YW bends artiface and want to convert it to electric assist. Not sure what I will choose just yet but your info got me thinking more into it. What kit would you recommend. I’m considering a bafang mid drive 1000w or 750w battery. New to your channel but Dude Stuff rocks! ✌️ from USA
If you need an Essex to US translator, let me know
Mid drive allows you to build bike with thru axles! Mid drives allows you to use the gearing. Higher power 5k hub all the way, except qs 138 or lightning rod big block.
Yeah I immediately thought about thru axles and quick release... after filming 😂
@@DudeStuff great videos!
Im looking at doing a conversion so my full suspension mtb , would a hub drive be better ?
Thanks for the video. I was going to "upgrade" to a mid drive, but will get a another hub drive ebike with a torque senser and throttle, instead.
Torque sensors are crap on a hub. You have to take up the chain slack. Defeats the purpose really
Sounds like a dog is sleeping in the background. Great stuff!
Can you recommend torque sensing reliable rear hub kits? 750-1000W?
Ebay uk, all or most are bafang motors, it's the wiring and controls that differ.
ffs steve i can hear your bulldog snoring in the background lol, which do you thinks best?, geared hub or direct drive ??
Geared are great but won't last forever if plastic gears otherwise they're all great
I've got 1500w kirb kit 52v 17ah. Could I make to motor push out 3000w. If so how would I go about achieving this?
Upgrade the controller
I absolutely love hub motors I've had loads over the past 18 years I've never had a midrive to compare but I know they are efficient but it comes at a high price man my 1000w hub is on a lightweight Muddyfox Anarchy 100 it's super fast so I sail past midrives fantastic blog Steve
What i like on hub motor it has engine brakes to add more braking power and it will save your brake pads. Unlike on mid drive you cant install an engine brake.
Great vid Steve. I was thinking about doing a similar vid comparing mid drive and hub motors but I think yours hits the nail on the head.
One additional positive for hub motors is that you can technically run them chainless (provided its cadence sensor based not torque sensor based).
Keep up the vids mate 👍
I kept looking at the sign behind your head. Reminded me of mouse ears.
fixing a puncture on a hub drive is alot more difficult when your halfway home, its dark and raining and impossible if you need to swap out a tube and dont have your big spanner handy. This was my experience with a hub drive and the reason why i switched to mid drive, otherwise i think the hub motor felt better over all
Sounds like the cyclist is the TORQUE component on a HUB DRIVE setup because the motor struggles to turn the wheel being in the CENTER/hub obviously not as easy to turn from the center but like you said the cyclist easily makes up the TORQUE...very interesting that you have so much torque over the motor
Pros - Hub Drive
- Less integrated means easier to maintain (tire change is NOT an issue)
- No need for special bike frame
Cons -
- Generally Hub Drive 'system' weigh more than Mid-drives (more integrated but more expensive)
- CG is more important than weight, because shift in CG to the back means 'more pumpy + less comfortable rides'
(If you want more grip on rear, you shift your body, not the bike)
- You loose the ability to use "hub gears" , get go and ride, less maintenance (CG will not be as bad if adding mid-drive along with hub gear)
aftermarket middrives just slot into most frames through the original bottom bracket where your pedals were
it's easier to just take your back wheel off and change your tire on a middrive (depends on the bike i guess) but normally you can just drop your wheel out without worrying about any cables. just have to make sure your brake isn't in the way
you're talking about the expensive overpriced motors like Bosch (even being European, i vote against the overpriced standard motors and batteries)
the problem isn't quite that middrives are more expensive, nor the batteries, the problem is that the main brands sold in stores are way overpriced and profit off of the fact that Shimano and Bosch are "big" names, i'd say that Bafang middrives are generally better quality and cheaper.
the only disadvantage with Bafang is that they don't sell aftermarket torque sensing ones except for special frames, which is unfortunate as that could be a pretty big market for them, but last years they focus more on OEM like Bosch etc
€1 for 1Wh, talk about fuckery, you can build a battery with 1kWh supporting more power for about €250 and it'll be at least as safe if you know what you're doing/your expertise is electronics, as i said just overpriced garbage as they want to make as much profit as possible
in the ebike world the batteries and middrives from Bosch & Shimano are basically the Apple of ebike motors and batteries (price wise), i don't like either of the 3.
Bosch is great for power tools and home appliances, Shimano for drivetrain (shifters, cassettes etc) but not for motors IMO
the most common i have seen for sale are the 750w mid drive and hub motors tend to be around 1kw usually on e bay or amazon .
That doggo snore adorable
Mid drive driving a motorcycle sprocket > everything else
You can have the best break calipers on a mid hub cuz the best calipers are mostly double pistol hydraulic that usually dont fit between most very thick back wheel hubs.
I have a QS 5K hub motor as a mid-drive. It tops out at 42 mph at 84v but it can pull tree stumps out of the ground. I guess you can call it a "Mid-Hub-Drive-Motor. Best of both worlds, 'lol. You should build one with Andy and see off you can keep the front wheel on the ground. lol
Very similar to my electric pit bike but 66v 42mph and 7200w
Electric motors are horrendously inefficient at low rpm.. And guess what.. it's always low rpm in a wheel. Its turning at the speed of the wheel. The only thing a direct drive hub has over a mid drive is reliability.. other than that the mid drive wins on every single metric. Anyone who thinks they know different is probably not an engineer and cant grasp the physics at play..
I design bike motors for a living. Hubs and mids. Videos like this make painful watching 😬
do you guys have a shop in or around london
I bought the cheapest ebike I could for £580 250w to 350w and while it's good I would love something abit more powerful 👍 Would need a better battery first though!
Bro love all your videos killing it keep doing you love all the bikes 👊🏼💯💯💯👍👍👍👍💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌
3:14 is that ur dog snooring ahhahhahahhahahhaha
Haha, I had my headphones on and I thought I could hear snoring , I wondered if it was me or what.
If your talking upper limits of performance, then mid drives have more potential in terms of performance, they are far more power dense. But hub motors are just so damn reliable and cheap, well provided you don't abuse the crap out of them and actually install them correctly. I will always use a hub on road and for some off road, my qs205 had done 40k miles before I sold it and It never once failed me doing fast food deliveries. Even my cheapy 500w hub motor that I have now is very reliable. They are just so cheap and cheerful, easy to setup for most people and are uncomplicated. If the sten gun was reincarnated as a motor, it would become a hub motor!
AM Racing AMR 250-90 Single AC Motor - Liquid Cooled, Permanent Magnet - Remy Cartridge 360v 210bhp with a 150kw controller 10.000rpm but they cost 10 grand
What law enforcement agencies have time, resources, or enough personnel to make sure that your bicycle is not over-powered or too fast?
Depends on who u are and where u live. Me? I'd be unlucky lol
Main thing i like about hub over mid is how quiet it is. My hub motor bike is fast and completely silent.
This is most true with direct drive hub motors. Hub motors with gear reductions can be louder. I mean not loud but not as silent I mean.
@@Parker307 my onyx rcr is completely silent. All u hear is the freewheel if anything
I live in an area with very little flat parts, there is a hill around every corner. So it's why I went mid-drive.
Add both kits to a bike
Ok
Ive had both on the same bike so I can comment. 1000w hub and 1000w mid 48 volt. Wanna climb steep hills? Go mid drive.
I can hear your dog snoring, lol!
Yep lol probably the most common comment on this one 🤣
I diy my mid drive put the dinner plate hub motor came from "romai mini eagle e bike" in the mid of the frame fabricate a freewheel crank men i tell you it has a crazy amount of torque at low gears and super fast in high gear i got a 20 inch folding bike.
Why don't you do 3kw hubs kits 🤔
I don't sell kits but kirbebike will be doing 60v kits later this year
Thanks, a lot to cover so heblpful. 👍
You forgot to put the disc brake clearance issues as a con for Hub Motors. I have yet to get the bottom of this issue. I know there's a work around for it. Haven't found it yet.
I commute a lot with ebike and can say one thing. For commuting direct hub is the way to go. I had once chain snapped and other day deraileur got in the whel and was totally destroyed and in both cases i could get to work with no problem, wasnt even late. With hubs you have 2 separate drives. Not to mention its waaaay more reliable and almost maintenance free. You just need good big tires to avoid punctures.
Reliability is important!! My commuter is a hub drive, I’m not Ricky Carmichael or anything lol
Biggest problem I have found with a hub motor is with the weight on the back wheel is punchers. You need to run high pressure in the back tyre or any little bump can result in a flat.
Really? Ive been riding hubs daily since 2012 and have only gotten 1 flat, by a piech of metal due to riding through a construction site.
@@Mywifetoldmetochangemyname You have to understand. To him high pressure is probably what the manufacturer recommends and what you and I would consider medium pressure lol.
@@cooloutac ah, gotcha
Good review mate Good information 👍
Mid drive by a long shot, you get a 750w mid drive against a 750w hub and start at bottom of hill and see who gets to top first, power to power mid drive rules, those hubs always cause problems off road over time.
So if u don’t go off road or on hills then hubdrives are good?
Love the vids , keep' em coming . I have the 1500 - 2000 watt ekirbebike kit , in one of the previous comment , a guy was asking on how to gain more power from it , would you be able to recommend a controller ?
I think you are missing that mid drives with torque sensor feel way more natural with just pedal assist.
Great video and thoughts, thank you!
I am overweight and live in partial steep hilly surroundings. Thus, I've chosen to buy mid drive e-bikes, since my concerns were broken spokes and not being able to surmount steep slopes. Otherwise, I would have chosen a hub motor, especially when riding a speed-pedelec. Another disadvantage of direct drive hub motors is the resistance as soon as they aren't supplied with electric power. Since in Europe normal e-bikes are per decree forced to curb the electric power supply after reaching 25 km/h, the drag on direct drives is too big when riding the e-bike without power assistance , which I always like to do while riding on plains. And here is another disadvantage concerning hub motors: they aren't suitable for full suspension bikes, since the back wheel should be as light as possible for allowing the suspension to work properly.
NB: To protect the spokes on e-bikes with hub motors or the engine and drivetrain on e-bikes with mid-motors I would never accelerate too fast but begin the ride with little or no power supply whenever possible, adding it step by step after reaching a little bit of speed.