My man, What a great video. Best Points 1) you used HP 5 which is grainy instead of slide film as so many youtubers use, to make film look digital. We shoot film cuz of its grain. This is a real comparison. We see the characteristics of each medium as they were meant to be used and look 2) you used different lenses + film + digital So you are comparing many things at once. From an artistic point of view (which is the only reason i do photography), I love them all. Non is better than the other and will never be, no matter how many pixels it has. Great job my friend.
Thanks a bunch. Definitely agree with you. None is better. Made the video partly because so many asked if they should get the APO for their analog Leica. Chose HP5 because chances are one doesn’t shoot just slide film, so I wanted to dhow what results one likely gets with an everyday film. Btw. The APO and Portra 160 make the film really look digital.
This was aaaweesome! This past week I was looking for videos comparing the 50mm APO and there is nothing out there that comes nearly close to your video. This was very informative;) haha I have the Summicron and I’ve always wanted to see how the APO looked in film and an M10 sensor. I actually shot it on a Monochrom in SoHo NY and it looked amazing to me.
Thanks a lot Daniel. Glad to hear my video helped you. I also heard that the APO and the M Monochrome are a match made in heaven. I have yet to try it on the Monochrome.
2:17 I notice that you can rewind the film to the point where film leader still out of canister. Can you please share the tips how to do that? Thank you
There is a very distinct clicking sound when the leader gets free from the carrier spool. I then rewind another half turn after that clicking sound so that I don’t have too fiddle around too much when taking out the film roll.
Interesting how different one could see the results of your comparison😅. For me your photos have shown me that I definitely don‘t need the APO Summicron for my style. As long as one is not pixelpeeping, the difference between the APO and the Elmar is there, yes, but in my eyes there are just little differences - nothing that would ruin an otherwise good photo. Interestingly the portrait of that young lady taken with the Elmar looked to me even better than the digital one taken with the Summicron. But these are very individual points😉. Anyway, thanks a lot for this video and the effort you put in it😎👍!
Thanks a lot Alex. Absolutely see your point. I will also keep shooting with the Elmar for it's style and also like it. The APO is really if someone wants that perfection.
Thank you. I have been looking forward to such a comparison. The difference in bokeh is obvious but I don't understand the grain issue. Lenses don't cause more or less grain, the types of film used and differences in processing do. Does the elmar let in less light at the same aperture than the Apo? Which it may, if that is the case matching the tonalities in post process will result in more grain. Apo Summicron 50 is supposed to be a fantastic lens but is the Elmar really this bad?
Thanks a lot. Glad to hear it was helpful and that you were looking forward to such a comparison. It let's less light in at the same aperture indeed. I developed both films in the same development tank. Same chemicals and scanned them at the same time. I was also suprised to see this. But as the Elmar loses a lot of detail in the shadow it might produce these dark artifacts. I. Really not sure how it happened other than how the lens works and bends the light. In this video I merely presented what I saw. Hope it helps.
@@TheMPhotography Thank you again for the comparison. I would love to see the comparison of both lenses on the MD , even more awesome would be to get my hans on the raw files. Stay safe and healthy.
Yes, the APO (APP-OH not A-P-O) Summicron comes very close to the theoretical optical transmission of light through a lens. The very-old design Elmar isn't even multi-coated so it must let less light thru it at a given f stop. Let's say the Summicron is at f8 (and we'll call it T8.3) then the Elmar will be at f8 (T11). I don't have a "Leica Manual" anymore, but I'm fairly sure the Elmar is a 6 element lens in two groups, much like a Tessar design. The late Alfred Eiesenstadt had no issues with rating film at a "lower ASA" to compensate. You make tests and see what works in the real world.
When you line up the walls at 45 degrees and see some discrepancies, they may be from the the 2.8 being actually a slightly longer focal length , just a millimeter or two, therefore a different sized image. This can be design or manufacturing tolerances. Back when the dual range Summicrons were made, they were made to 53 mm and those that came out perfectly 53 were put in focus mounts made for 53. Others has different focus mounts to accommodate errors. One time a camera store owner wanted to set up a stereo camera and he wanted me to check 50 2.8 Elmars. I could not find two that were the same all on the same roll of film. I can see in the images of2.8 and APO one image is large than the other slightly. Also films have different contrast levels and they will not match even if development times are adjusted. All that said, I did some pic on a roll of T Max 100 stored 10 years in freezer with APO and I could easily see the sharpness difference from what I used to get on the same 100 foot roll. If the image has curved straight lines, this are a design compromise for cost or size.
Thanks for the interesting comparison. I have neither of these lenses, but usually shoot with a collapsible Summicron 50 from 1954 or a pre-asph Summilux 50 from 1994. I love them both... Maybe I should make a side-by-side comparison with these two to see the differences, just like you did.
Thanks for watching. Super cool lenses you have. I am sure a side by side comparison would be revealing. If you do so I would be interested to hear about your results.
I prefer the elmar for portraits as lower resolution helps to hide imperfections. But the APO is truly a wonderful lens (except for the price). Right now I am personally using the summilux ASPH as well as the newer elmar-m and summicron v3, I do not have a preference for any of these since they all have their own characters. But one lens which I found has incredible price/performance ratio is the voigtlander 50mm f1.2, which has super buttery smooth bokeh (especially on film).
Thanks for watching and your feedback Jimmy. Good point with the imperfections while doing portraits. I need to experiment a bit more on portraits with the Elmar. I also see the point with the price of the APO and I know how lucky I am. I heard good things about the 50mm Voigtlander. Haven't had the chance to shoot it yet.
As much you can see the differences on screen can you typically see the differences in print? How much enlargement would be required to notice the differences in the fine details in the low contrast areas? 🤔
Thanks for watching and your feedback Marc. That us a good question and I wouldn't know the answer. I have yet to print a photo that I took with the Elmar. My guess would be that you would have to print at least A3 before you see differences in the fine detail. But this is just a wild guess
May I ask why that is the case? As I have the lux and use it pretty much exclusively for portraiture work. I wonder if the 50 apo can add anything to my photography if I intend to expand my range with the 50mm.
@@TheMPhotography May I ask why that is the case? As I have the lux and use it pretty much exclusively for portraiture work. I wonder if the 50 apo can add anything to my photography if I intend to expand my range with the 50mm.
If you have the lux and you are happy I am not sure the apo will add to your range. If you plan to replace it with the APO it would give you a different bokeh (matter of taste), sharpness, contrast and different colors (matter of taste). But coming back to your original question: is that worth the money? Very individual decision.
One more thing when we look at the future and the new range of Leica cameras with the high resolution. The APO can bring out the most out of those new sensors as far as I see the reviews of the M10R and SL2 that I saw on the net. Maybe it could add something for you looking at the lens from that perspective if you plan to upgrade. But again, I always believe that the best gear is the gear one is the most happiest with. If your Lux never disappointed you and you are happy with it you should probably keep it.
Sälü us Bärn! Ich mag deine Beiträge sehr. Gruss an Gilles von Gerry. Der Vergleich ist irgendwie brutal. 8000 Schtutz gegen 300 Schtutz gebraucht... für mich gibt es einen Sieger, das Elmar. Genial was damals schon gebaut wurde. Brauche übrigens ein Elmar 5cm/3.5 von 1946 an meiner M240 und SL. Für meinen Geschmack ist M-D mit APO zu dunkel. Just my taste 😁.
Ciao. Merci für deinen Kommentar. Mit Geld alleine ist das APO Glass wirklich schwer zu rechtfertigen. Stimme ich zu. Zum Thema MD und APO zu dunkel. Irgendwie habe ich generell das Gefühl, das Digitalkameras eher dunkler belichten. Denke, weil die Highlights dort Probleme bereitten.
Just discovered your video now - great stuff indeed. I am surprised how well the images taken on film compare against the digital ones. May I ask which scanner and software you used for digitalizing?
Enjoy your videos. I picked up a Leica M10 last year. I'm not a big fan of 50mm so I picked up the Voigtländer 50/1.2 VM Nokton ASPH for when I feel I wish to use this focal length. A good value for my needs. I am currently researching for reviews and comparisons of the Leica 28mm f2 Summicron-M ASPH (11672) vs the Leica 28mm Elmarit f/2.8 ASPH II (11677). There aren't many out there on the web. If you have any input, I'd enjoy hearing them.
Thanks Peter. I have a Summicron lineup (35,50,75mm) but for 28mm I somehow went for the Elmarit f/2.8. I sometimes regret not having f/2.0 sometimes when it gets darker but the small size of the Elmarit is very handy. When I shoot 28mm I am more concerned with a light and small package. The Summicron might have the better picture. Having said all this I think both are totally fine. For me it came down to compactness. I personally would not go for the Lux. Too big and expensive. Hope this helps.
@@TheMPhotography Thanks. Because the 28mm lenses are costly in Canada especially the f1.4 (all Leica lenses have a huge 25% Trump tariff and Canada has to get them from LeicaUSA). I'm kind of leaning towards the Summicron for maybe 'future proofing' and not buying the Elmarit, wishing later I had picked up the Summicron instead. Also looking at maybe the possibility of the 28mm f2 having a wee bit better performance with the next high resolution M model. Planning for this to be my main walking around lens, little wider than my 35mm but not as wide as my 21mm. Similar in size/weight to my 35mm f2.
Yeah. Probably a good choice esp. with regards to performance and future proofing. You will enjoy the Summicron. My favorite line of Leica lenses. Here in CH Leica also has a premium on their prices 😔
i think you would enjoy the 28mm summicron. it is exceptional! but i never owned it because i got the q2. i would take q2 as everyday camera since auto focus and macro function is amazing. and shoot other focus lens on film. i have also tried the 11677, because i also own a sony system, the elmarit does not perform attractive comparing to other manufactures' counterparts. i would definitely consider the summicron or even the summilux.
Great video Marcus. Another noteworthy mention is the latest 50mm Summarit, which I like a lot. The small form factor of the Summarit is also an attractive feature of the lens.
Very interesting. The Elmar looks so much better in all the pictures. The grain and contrast look amazing.What a great lens! Why buy the Summicron when it doesn't look as good?
Thank You for sharing! What scanner do You use for the negatives? I dont think its good to change film in direct sunlight. I never do that. What bag do use? Nice film!
The elmar has very unique drawing. The question is does the APO justify its' price tag over the slight improvement over the elmar on film? I think not. On digital, yes the APO is great but not for film.
Hi! I was curious, have you tried the 35mm Summicron, both the Mk 4 and the newer APO? I'm looking at getting one or the other, and I've heard that while the APO is sharper, the Mk 4 has a more appealing Bokeh, and general aesthetic. Any preference between the two?
Ben M I have both versions. The APO is optically superb, solidly built and pretty good shooting into the light. The V4 is tiny, has a very characteristic separation of planes at wide apertures and is great with film in particular. I tend to use the APO with my digital body and the V4 for film mostly. Both are great, versatile and pocketable lenses. You won’t go wrong with either but the older lens has more ‘character’ which may be less clinically perfect, but with the right subjects, especially with soft colours on film, is something special in and of itself. Enjoy whichever you choose👍👍
Great video, Marcus. The pictures in your tests agree with my own findings when shooting film with modern lenses. I don’t have an APO 50, but I shot some rolls with the Summicron 28mm Asph V2. What I find is, both from your results and my own experience, modern lenses tend to give a gentler and softer look on film if you view the images at global scale. The 1990s Elmar shows more contrast, a lot more in the shadows specifically. Funny thing is that if you view the scans at 100%, modern lenses do contain a stunning amount of detail, something I didn’t see in the past. I could be newer scanning resolutions, but it also could be the new lenses’ better resolving power. No conclusions here, just some observations. My 35 APO is on the way though. Although I intend to mount it on digital Ms, I’d still like to see how the “sharpest M lens” renders on film. I will report back.
Nice video. For my taste this is why I prefer shooting on film. The digital images are insipid, sterile... no comparison with light being captured by silver halide crystals on a plastic material. Thanks!
Thanks for this comparison, great work! I wonder if we change the chemistry and film the render can be even closer between M-D and M6. (Delta 100 for exemple)
Nice comparison. I see the technical superiority of the APO Summicron, but subjectively I preferred the shots with the Elmar every time. I think it has that “3D pop” that I don’t see in the shots from the APO. I’m curious what version of the Elmar this was.
Thanks for watching. Yeah, where the Elmar lacks perfection it makes it up in character. And like I mentioned in the video, we shall never forget on what level we are talking here. All Leica lenses are fantastic and very high quality. The Elmar I own is the version that came with the Leica M6J.
About 7 years ago I tested Apo against Elmar in Leica GUM Moscow twice with the participation of the store manager and salespeople using a tripod on digital cameras М-Е and Monochrome. And each time Elmar was better than the new Apo in terms of sharpness, detail, and so on. I was disappointed. For this reason, I did not buy a new lens. In the old Elmar the glass is better in quality than in the new Apo. And in your review I like Elmar more. During my test focusing was checked by several people. The position of the cameras did not change. And we also used a self-timer with a 12 second delay. Shoot on Elmar and have classic shots with true Leica character.
Thanks David. Yeah, the Elmar definitely has more character. With regards to sharpness I cannot confirm that the Elmar is sharper. The APO beats in what I saw so far.
@@TheMPhotography Leica representatives just threw up their hands after each test and could not explain anything. Moreover, I gave memory card with the samples to Leica Germany, but did not receive an answer.
Maybe worth retrying with a different body and APO. It might be that the focus mechanism was not calibrated/adjusted to both lenses on that body. The APO is such a sharp beast if someone is looking for sharpness and contrast. I use it extensively on the M-D and also tested it on the new Panasonic Lumix S5 with the Leica M-L adapter.
@@TheMPhotography Maybe. To be fair, I must say that before the test Elmar was sent to Germany for cleaning and adjustment. And I did the test just before buying the Apo and make sure that the big advertisement that accompanied the announcement of the new lens was fair. And the test was carried out on two different days, because I began to think that I made some mistake during the experiment. But the next day showed the same result. I have no doubt that Apo is a great lens. Moreover, according to the representative of Leica Apo and the same level M lenses are designed for a sensor of up to 200 megabytes.
I enjoyed the video. I think for better comparison you should shoot the elmar and summicron on the same body and film. To me the enhanced grain on the elmar is a result of the film/processing/scanning process rather than the lenses, although the elmar definitely has more contrast and punch and the bokeh is not as smooth as the summicron. Looking to get the portable elmar myself so found this helpful.
Thanks for watching. You are absolutely right. For a correct comparison with pixel peeping I should have shot the Elmar on the same body. For me shooting the Elmar was more of a bonus and I personally was curious how it generally performs on the same subject next to the APO. The main focus was to show film shooters how the APO looks on film and on digital. I get often asked if I can recommend the APO for film Leicas. It’s a tough question given the price. Hope the viewers can form their own opinion and that my video helps a bit with the decision making. You will certainly enjoy the Elmar. I do as well and wouldn’t want to miss it for its character and size/weight. Especially now that I have seen it directly next to the APO.
@@TheMPhotography Good point, this was about APO digital v film. Thanks for throwing in the elmar-m for added interest. I'd imagine the 50 elmar-m is a great match for the mj6 .85 viewfinder. I know my M3 .91 viewfinder beats my M6 .72 millennium for brightness, flare and magnification.
Regarding the exposure/light meter on M10. It is one stop darker - but it has nothing to do with light metering... If you shoot it manual, it is the same. One stop darker. This is a known "issue" with the M10. The ISO scale is not right. 400 ISO on M10 is like 200 ASA on film (or 200 ISO on most other digital camera). Made by design I guess, to save highlights. But also to have better noise reduction on paper, I guess. So you have to remember this if you use more than one camera in the field. When I shoot my Leica Q and M10 manual, I always use one stop higher ISO on the M10. Then the two files matches... A bit annoying though!
Ordered and just used a Leica Summicron Rigid that just replaced the 50mm f/2 Planar ZM. The Zeiss Planar was too sharp for my tastes. The Rigid is filmic in its rendering...!
Hi Marcus, Why not do a comparison of the 50mm Summicrons on film and digital? APO Summicron vs Elmar is like comparing the 28mm Leica Q with the 28mm iPhone.
For me this video was more 50mm APO on digital vs analog. I just shot the Elmar for my own curiosity and I must say I learned a lot about when to use the Elmar and when the APO. At no time I wanted to compare them as alternatives. If I had a normal Summicron at my disposal I could compare that one to the APO. I think they will be very close
Thanks a lot. I haven't compared them. For me they fulfill a different purpose. Probably hard to compare but I do own a 75mm APO. How would you go about comparing them? Maybe I could do a video in the future. From a quality perspective I would say the 50mm APO is better.
@@TheMPhotography Thanks for getting back to me so promptly, I was wondering what is the resolving power on Film between them? Both lens are sharp so that's not an issue for me although I own a APO 90mm as well and I find the APO 7mm lens it resolves more.
I see. You were referring to the resolving power on film. Haven't really checked side by side. I would assume they are comparable. I shot a lot of portraits with the 75mm APO on film (Ektachrome, Fuji Pro 400h and Portra) and I love it.
I’m currently debating between the 50 apo and 50 f1 noctilux as my next purchase. I have the voigtlander 50 1.2 and Summicron dr. The voigtlander is sharp enough at f2 but lack of leica look, the dr has classic rendering but resolution is not good enough. Since I tend to shoot 50mm and long on film, which lens would you recommend to get? I know it’s apples and oranges.....
Yeah. It's really hard to tell or give a recommendation. You basically highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the lenses you mentioned. I personally am not a fan of the nocti but I can totally see why some people are.
Thanks for the comparison! I'm just wondering, how you have enjoyed changing those Leica bodies and, especially, changing the tripod mounting plates )))
Hi Wayne. Thanks for watching and your feedback. I was debating with myself when editing the video if I should leave the music in the background and was not 100% convinced either. Good to know. Appreciate your comment. And I learned a new word. I didn't know the word "mellifluous" ;-)
Very interesting video. I shoot both film and digital (on Leica cameras and other types) and both the M6 and M-D shots with the APO 50mm have pleasing aesthetics. The Elmar is characterful but also a little disappointing. How does the Elmar perform on the M-D?
Thanks Sam. I didn't try it on the M-D yet but I don't think it's the look I am looking for on the M-D. Maybe I will try it some day. Dunno if I will make a video though.
Which photographer - professional or amateur - will be spending $9K for a 50/2.0 lens?! What's missing is a comparison between the latest regular 50/2.0 Summicron version versus the APO version. I am sure it is not worth the difference in price for 99% of taken photos (I have the regular 50/2 Summicron, and it is super sharp already). The 50 mm Elmar is an older f/2.8 lens design, so it is like comparing apples with oranges here.
Thanks for watching. If I had the latest Summicron version at hand I would gladly compare both. As for the comparison to the Elmar I was just curious how big of a difference it is. In this video I mainly wanted to find out if it was worth shooting or owning a 50mm APO while being a film photographer.
Thanks for watching. I wanted to see grain and how it is rendered as well as the geometry of the lens. Fully agree with you that for a sharpness comparison a finer grain is better.
I believe that you used an Epson flatbed scanner, V850, to scan the negatives. This scanner ( I have the V700 which is more or less the same scanner but with a cold light rather than LED ) is not suitable for scanning 35mm negatives ( it is usable for 120 film and 4X5 ). It can not hold the 35 mm negatives flat since it uses flimsy plastic negative holders which allow the film to curl up and loose definition during scanning plus the fact that despite Epson's claims the true optical resolution of the system is measured to be about 2400 p/i. It also has much lower D-Max for scanning film than a dedicated film scanner such as my Nikon LS-50 ED ( unfortunately long out of production ) which has a true optical resolution of 4000 p/i. The biggest problem with an Epson V700/800 is the lack of autofocus. Even if the height of the holder has been adjusted accurately using a third party height adjustable holder such as the ones from ' Better Scanning ' in the US this focus height is not repeatable due to the different curvature of the emulsion for different film bases. The Elmar is a very old design and lower contrast is expected when compared to a modern Leica lens with an Apo design. Lower contrast combined with the indifferent performance of the scanner can yeild the negs rather soft and unsharp compared to digital or a neg from an Apo lens. This was an entertaining comparison but the conclusions are rather flawed. If you deicded to repeat the experiment I'd suggest that you do not use a grainy/low contrast film such as Ilford HP5. This film is known for its tonality and dynamic range and not sharpness. A film such as a high res Adox film is more suitable and use a dedicated proper film scanner or better still have negs drum scanned @ 6000 p/i. Thanks for this presentation.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
My man,
What a great video. Best Points
1) you used HP 5 which is grainy instead of slide film as so many youtubers use, to make film look digital. We shoot film cuz of its grain. This is a real comparison. We see the characteristics of each medium as they were meant to be used and look
2) you used different lenses + film + digital
So you are comparing many things at once.
From an artistic point of view (which is the only reason i do photography), I love them all.
Non is better than the other and will never be, no matter how many pixels it has.
Great job my friend.
Thanks a bunch. Definitely agree with you. None is better. Made the video partly because so many asked if they should get the APO for their analog Leica. Chose HP5 because chances are one doesn’t shoot just slide film, so I wanted to dhow what results one likely gets with an everyday film. Btw. The APO and Portra 160 make the film really look digital.
This was aaaweesome! This past week I was looking for videos comparing the 50mm APO and there is nothing out there that comes nearly close to your video. This was very informative;) haha I have the Summicron and I’ve always wanted to see how the APO looked in film and an M10 sensor. I actually shot it on a Monochrom in SoHo NY and it looked amazing to me.
Thanks a lot Daniel. Glad to hear my video helped you. I also heard that the APO and the M Monochrome are a match made in heaven. I have yet to try it on the Monochrome.
From the examples in this video, I prefer the rendition of the Elmar - It has a charm and a roundness to it's depiction. Thanks for the effort.
Thanks for watching. Yeah, the Elmar has character the APO is on the perfection side of things.
2:17 I notice that you can rewind the film to the point where film leader still out of canister. Can you please share the tips how to do that? Thank you
There is a very distinct clicking sound when the leader gets free from the carrier spool. I then rewind another half turn after that clicking sound so that I don’t have too fiddle around too much when taking out the film roll.
Interesting how different one could see the results of your comparison😅. For me your photos have shown me that I definitely don‘t need the APO Summicron for my style. As long as one is not pixelpeeping, the difference between the APO and the Elmar is there, yes, but in my eyes there are just little differences - nothing that would ruin an otherwise good photo. Interestingly the portrait of that young lady taken with the Elmar looked to me even better than the digital one taken with the Summicron. But these are very individual points😉. Anyway, thanks a lot for this video and the effort you put in it😎👍!
Thanks a lot Alex. Absolutely see your point. I will also keep shooting with the Elmar for it's style and also like it. The APO is really if someone wants that perfection.
Excellent video. I’d love a APO vs summilux
Thanks a lot. If I ever get my hands on a Summilux I will probably do a video.
Thank you. I have been looking forward to such a comparison. The difference in bokeh is obvious but I don't understand the grain issue. Lenses don't cause more or less grain, the types of film used and differences in processing do. Does the elmar let in less light at the same aperture than the Apo? Which it may, if that is the case matching the tonalities in post process will result in more grain. Apo Summicron 50 is supposed to be a fantastic lens but is the Elmar really this bad?
Thanks a lot. Glad to hear it was helpful and that you were looking forward to such a comparison. It let's less light in at the same aperture indeed. I developed both films in the same development tank. Same chemicals and scanned them at the same time. I was also suprised to see this. But as the Elmar loses a lot of detail in the shadow it might produce these dark artifacts. I. Really not sure how it happened other than how the lens works and bends the light. In this video I merely presented what I saw. Hope it helps.
@@TheMPhotography Thank you again for the comparison. I would love to see the comparison of both lenses on the MD , even more awesome would be to get my hans on the raw files. Stay safe and healthy.
Yes, the APO (APP-OH not A-P-O) Summicron comes very close to the theoretical optical transmission of light through a lens. The very-old design Elmar isn't even multi-coated so it must let less light thru it at a given f stop. Let's say the Summicron is at f8 (and we'll call it T8.3) then the Elmar will be at f8 (T11). I don't have a "Leica Manual" anymore, but I'm fairly sure the Elmar is a 6 element lens in two groups, much like a Tessar design. The late Alfred Eiesenstadt had no issues with rating film at a "lower ASA" to compensate. You make tests and see what works in the real world.
Thanks a lot for the comprehensive comment.
I just subscribed. Thank you very much for spending these efforts to share. Really enjoyed.
Thanks a lot D X. Glad to hear that you liked it.
Clash of the titans.. Great presentation and very well documented.
Thanks a lot Dominique. Happy to hear you liked it.
When you line up the walls at 45 degrees and see some discrepancies, they may be from the the 2.8 being actually a slightly longer focal length , just a millimeter or two, therefore a different sized image. This can be design or manufacturing tolerances. Back when the dual range Summicrons were made, they were made to 53 mm and those that came out perfectly 53 were put in focus mounts made for 53. Others has different focus mounts to accommodate errors. One time a camera store owner wanted to set up a stereo camera and he wanted me to check 50 2.8 Elmars. I could not find two that were the same all on the same roll of film. I can see in the images of2.8 and APO one image is large than the other slightly. Also films have different contrast levels and they will not match even if development times are adjusted.
All that said, I did some pic on a roll of T Max 100 stored 10 years in freezer with APO and I could easily see the sharpness difference from what I used to get on the same 100 foot roll. If the image has curved straight lines, this are a design compromise for cost or size.
Thanks for watching and your comprehensive feedback. Much appreciated. 🙏🏻
That was an excellent presentation, thank you!!
Thanks Jason
Thanks for the interesting comparison. I have neither of these lenses, but usually shoot with a collapsible Summicron 50 from 1954 or a pre-asph Summilux 50 from 1994. I love them both... Maybe I should make a side-by-side comparison with these two to see the differences, just like you did.
Thanks for watching. Super cool lenses you have. I am sure a side by side comparison would be revealing. If you do so I would be interested to hear about your results.
I prefer the elmar for portraits as lower resolution helps to hide imperfections. But the APO is truly a wonderful lens (except for the price). Right now I am personally using the summilux ASPH as well as the newer elmar-m and summicron v3, I do not have a preference for any of these since they all have their own characters. But one lens which I found has incredible price/performance ratio is the voigtlander 50mm f1.2, which has super buttery smooth bokeh (especially on film).
Thanks for watching and your feedback Jimmy. Good point with the imperfections while doing portraits. I need to experiment a bit more on portraits with the Elmar. I also see the point with the price of the APO and I know how lucky I am. I heard good things about the 50mm Voigtlander. Haven't had the chance to shoot it yet.
As much you can see the differences on screen can you typically see the differences in print? How much enlargement would be required to notice the differences in the fine details in the low contrast areas? 🤔
Thanks for watching and your feedback Marc. That us a good question and I wouldn't know the answer. I have yet to print a photo that I took with the Elmar. My guess would be that you would have to print at least A3 before you see differences in the fine detail. But this is just a wild guess
do you find the apo summicron actually worth the money compare to the lux asph?
Worth the money is hard to say but I would generally say I would prefer it over the Lux.
May I ask why that is the case? As I have the lux and use it pretty much exclusively for portraiture work. I wonder if the 50 apo can add anything to my photography if I intend to expand my range with the 50mm.
@@TheMPhotography May I ask why that is the case? As I have the lux and use it pretty much exclusively for portraiture work. I wonder if the 50 apo can add anything to my photography if I intend to expand my range with the 50mm.
If you have the lux and you are happy I am not sure the apo will add to your range. If you plan to replace it with the APO it would give you a different bokeh (matter of taste), sharpness, contrast and different colors (matter of taste). But coming back to your original question: is that worth the money? Very individual decision.
One more thing when we look at the future and the new range of Leica cameras with the high resolution. The APO can bring out the most out of those new sensors as far as I see the reviews of the M10R and SL2 that I saw on the net. Maybe it could add something for you looking at the lens from that perspective if you plan to upgrade. But again, I always believe that the best gear is the gear one is the most happiest with. If your Lux never disappointed you and you are happy with it you should probably keep it.
Sälü us Bärn! Ich mag deine Beiträge sehr. Gruss an Gilles von Gerry. Der Vergleich ist irgendwie brutal. 8000 Schtutz gegen 300 Schtutz gebraucht... für mich gibt es einen Sieger, das Elmar. Genial was damals schon gebaut wurde. Brauche übrigens ein Elmar 5cm/3.5 von 1946 an meiner M240 und SL.
Für meinen Geschmack ist M-D mit APO zu dunkel. Just my taste 😁.
Ciao. Merci für deinen Kommentar. Mit Geld alleine ist das APO Glass wirklich schwer zu rechtfertigen. Stimme ich zu. Zum Thema MD und APO zu dunkel. Irgendwie habe ich generell das Gefühl, das Digitalkameras eher dunkler belichten. Denke, weil die Highlights dort Probleme bereitten.
Just discovered your video now - great stuff indeed. I am surprised how well the images taken on film compare against the digital ones. May I ask which scanner and software you used for digitalizing?
Thanks for watching. I used a Reflecta Proscan 10t to scan and the scanning software I used was Silverfast.
Enjoy your videos. I picked up a Leica M10 last year. I'm not a big fan of 50mm so I picked up the Voigtländer 50/1.2 VM Nokton ASPH for when I feel I wish to use this focal length. A good value for my needs. I am currently researching for reviews and comparisons of the Leica 28mm f2 Summicron-M ASPH (11672) vs the Leica 28mm Elmarit f/2.8 ASPH II (11677). There aren't many out there on the web. If you have any input, I'd enjoy hearing them.
Thanks Peter. I have a Summicron lineup (35,50,75mm) but for 28mm I somehow went for the Elmarit f/2.8. I sometimes regret not having f/2.0 sometimes when it gets darker but the small size of the Elmarit is very handy. When I shoot 28mm I am more concerned with a light and small package. The Summicron might have the better picture. Having said all this I think both are totally fine. For me it came down to compactness. I personally would not go for the Lux. Too big and expensive. Hope this helps.
@@TheMPhotography Thanks. Because the 28mm lenses are costly in Canada especially the f1.4 (all Leica lenses have a huge 25% Trump tariff and Canada has to get them from LeicaUSA). I'm kind of leaning towards the Summicron for maybe 'future proofing' and not buying the Elmarit, wishing later I had picked up the Summicron instead. Also looking at maybe the possibility of the 28mm f2 having a wee bit better performance with the next high resolution M model. Planning for this to be my main walking around lens, little wider than my 35mm but not as wide as my 21mm. Similar in size/weight to my 35mm f2.
Yeah. Probably a good choice esp. with regards to performance and future proofing. You will enjoy the Summicron. My favorite line of Leica lenses. Here in CH Leica also has a premium on their prices 😔
i think you would enjoy the 28mm summicron. it is exceptional! but i never owned it because i got the q2. i would take q2 as everyday camera since auto focus and macro function is amazing. and shoot other focus lens on film. i have also tried the 11677, because i also own a sony system, the elmarit does not perform attractive comparing to other manufactures' counterparts. i would definitely consider the summicron or even the summilux.
Thank you! Maybe I will add the cron to my collection one day. The lux is unlikely.
Great video Marcus. Another noteworthy mention is the latest 50mm Summarit, which I like a lot. The small form factor of the Summarit is also an attractive feature of the lens.
Thanks Jay Mark. The often forgotten Summarit. Thanks for pointing it out.
It would be interesting to see an in-depth comparison between the 50mm Summicron and the 50mm Summicron APO.
Thanks for your feedback. If I get my hands on a 50mm Summicron I might be able to do a comparison.
Very great comparison ,thanks a lot.
I just got Elmar 50/3.5 RS，its very good lens.
Thank you!
Very interesting. The Elmar looks so much better in all the pictures. The grain and contrast look amazing.What a great lens! Why buy the Summicron when it doesn't look as good?
Thanks James. I guess in the end it comes down to personal preference or the use case.
Thank You for sharing! What scanner do You use for the negatives?
I dont think its good to change film in direct sunlight. I never do that. What bag do use?
Nice film!
Thanks a lot. I use the Epson V850 Pro for scanning. The bag you are seeing is a Billingham Hadley Pro.
If the Leica 50mm APO Summicron is out of reach financially, I would highly recommend a Zeiss 50mm f/2 Planar Zm that I use with my Leica MD...!
thanks for the review Markus!
That's very interesting! Another interesting video would be a comparison between the two 50s only on the M-D.
Thanks for watching and your feedback.
The elmar has very unique drawing. The question is does the APO justify its' price tag over the slight improvement over the elmar on film? I think not. On digital, yes the APO is great but not for film.
I agree. For film alone I don’t think the APO is worth the money. Unless one is already anticipating to buy a modern day digital Leica at some point.
Hi! I was curious, have you tried the 35mm Summicron, both the Mk 4 and the newer APO? I'm looking at getting one or the other, and I've heard that while the APO is sharper, the Mk 4 has a more appealing Bokeh, and general aesthetic. Any preference between the two?
I only own the non APO version of the 35mm. I did not have the chance to test the 35mm APO.
Ben M I have both versions. The APO is optically superb, solidly built and pretty good shooting into the light. The V4 is tiny, has a very characteristic separation of planes at wide apertures and is great with film in particular. I tend to use the APO with my digital body and the V4 for film mostly. Both are great, versatile and pocketable lenses. You won’t go wrong with either but the older lens has more ‘character’ which may be less clinically perfect, but with the right subjects, especially with soft colours on film, is something special in and of itself. Enjoy whichever you choose👍👍
From my experience the 50mm APO is exceptional and images can be massively cropped and still be printed A3 size.
Fully agree
Great video, Marcus. The pictures in your tests agree with my own findings when shooting film with modern lenses. I don’t have an APO 50, but I shot some rolls with the Summicron 28mm Asph V2. What I find is, both from your results and my own experience, modern lenses tend to give a gentler and softer look on film if you view the images at global scale. The 1990s Elmar shows more contrast, a lot more in the shadows specifically. Funny thing is that if you view the scans at 100%, modern lenses do contain a stunning amount of detail, something I didn’t see in the past. I could be newer scanning resolutions, but it also could be the new lenses’ better resolving power. No conclusions here, just some observations. My 35 APO is on the way though. Although I intend to mount it on digital Ms, I’d still like to see how the “sharpest M lens” renders on film. I will report back.
Thanks a lot for your comment. So nice that you will have the 35mm APO soon. Definitely best suited for digital. Curious to hear back from you.
Nice video. For my taste this is why I prefer shooting on film. The digital images are insipid, sterile... no comparison with light being captured by silver halide crystals on a plastic material. Thanks!
Thank you. I somehow feel the same about film. Especially black & white film.
Marcus, thank you for your informative video. I was wondering what tripod you used.
Thanks for watching Rein. The tripod I was using in the video was the Manfrotto Traveler Tripod Small with ball head.
The M Photography thank you Marcus!
Thanks for this comparison, great work! I wonder if we change the chemistry and film the render can be even closer between M-D and M6. (Delta 100 for exemple)
Yes, definitely possible. Either Delta 100 or Acros II should be a big step.
Thank you, though I don’t shoot film, i enjoyed watching the comparison
Nice comparison. I see the technical superiority of the APO Summicron, but subjectively I preferred the shots with the Elmar every time. I think it has that “3D pop” that I don’t see in the shots from the APO. I’m curious what version of the Elmar this was.
Thanks for watching. Yeah, where the Elmar lacks perfection it makes it up in character. And like I mentioned in the video, we shall never forget on what level we are talking here. All Leica lenses are fantastic and very high quality. The Elmar I own is the version that came with the Leica M6J.
The M Photography thanks for the reply. I believe that version is Calle the “Elmar M.”
About 7 years ago I tested Apo against Elmar in Leica GUM Moscow twice with the participation of the store manager and salespeople using a tripod on digital cameras М-Е and Monochrome. And each time Elmar was better than the new Apo in terms of sharpness, detail, and so on. I was disappointed. For this reason, I did not buy a new lens. In the old Elmar the glass is better in quality than in the new Apo. And in your review I like Elmar more. During my test focusing was checked by several people. The position of the cameras did not change. And we also used a self-timer with a 12 second delay. Shoot on Elmar and have classic shots with true Leica character.
Thanks David. Yeah, the Elmar definitely has more character. With regards to sharpness I cannot confirm that the Elmar is sharper. The APO beats in what I saw so far.
@@TheMPhotography Leica representatives just threw up their hands after each test and could not explain anything. Moreover, I gave memory card with the samples to Leica Germany, but did not receive an answer.
Maybe worth retrying with a different body and APO. It might be that the focus mechanism was not calibrated/adjusted to both lenses on that body. The APO is such a sharp beast if someone is looking for sharpness and contrast. I use it extensively on the M-D and also tested it on the new Panasonic Lumix S5 with the Leica M-L adapter.
@@TheMPhotography Maybe. To be fair, I must say that before the test Elmar was sent to Germany for cleaning and adjustment. And I did the test just before buying the Apo and make sure that the big advertisement that accompanied the announcement of the new lens was fair. And the test was carried out on two different days, because I began to think that I made some mistake during the experiment. But the next day showed the same result. I have no doubt that Apo is a great lens. Moreover, according to the representative of Leica Apo and the same level M lenses are designed for a sensor of up to 200 megabytes.
Yeah I heard so too. Designed for high megapixel sensors.
I enjoyed the video. I think for better comparison you should shoot the elmar and summicron on the same body and film. To me the enhanced grain on the elmar is a result of the film/processing/scanning process rather than the lenses, although the elmar definitely has more contrast and punch and the bokeh is not as smooth as the summicron. Looking to get the portable elmar myself so found this helpful.
Thanks for watching. You are absolutely right. For a correct comparison with pixel peeping I should have shot the Elmar on the same body. For me shooting the Elmar was more of a bonus and I personally was curious how it generally performs on the same subject next to the APO. The main focus was to show film shooters how the APO looks on film and on digital. I get often asked if I can recommend the APO for film Leicas. It’s a tough question given the price. Hope the viewers can form their own opinion and that my video helps a bit with the decision making. You will certainly enjoy the Elmar. I do as well and wouldn’t want to miss it for its character and size/weight. Especially now that I have seen it directly next to the APO.
@@TheMPhotography Good point, this was about APO digital v film. Thanks for throwing in the elmar-m for added interest. I'd imagine the 50 elmar-m is a great match for the mj6 .85 viewfinder. I know my M3 .91 viewfinder beats my M6 .72 millennium for brightness, flare and magnification.
Yes absolutely. Perfect for .85 of the M6J (it came with it) but I bet even more sweet on your M3 ;-)
@@TheMPhotography m6j - yes and with matching serials numbers, very nice! My B.P. 35 asph and B.P. Millennium don't match, so I'm jealous 😀👍
Regarding the exposure/light meter on M10. It is one stop darker - but it has nothing to do with light metering... If you shoot it manual, it is the same. One stop darker. This is a known "issue" with the M10. The ISO scale is not right. 400 ISO on M10 is like 200 ASA on film (or 200 ISO on most other digital camera). Made by design I guess, to save highlights. But also to have better noise reduction on paper, I guess.
So you have to remember this if you use more than one camera in the field. When I shoot my Leica Q and M10 manual, I always use one stop higher ISO on the M10. Then the two files matches... A bit annoying though!
I was not aware of this and did not shoot a M10 yet myself. Thank you for the feedback.
@@TheMPhotography ah, thought it was a M10-D. But you have the M-D (262) ?
Yes. I have the M-D type 262.
What bag do you use in this video? Looks good!
I am using the Billingham Hadley Pro in this video.
The M Photography I was afraid it was. It’s probably perfect for my needs but can I justify $250+ for a bag right now? Hmm. Thanks!
Ordered and just used a Leica Summicron Rigid that just replaced the 50mm f/2 Planar ZM. The Zeiss Planar was too sharp for my tastes. The Rigid is filmic in its rendering...!
Hi Marcus,
Why not do a comparison of the 50mm Summicrons on film and digital? APO Summicron vs Elmar is like comparing the 28mm Leica Q with the 28mm iPhone.
For me this video was more 50mm APO on digital vs analog. I just shot the Elmar for my own curiosity and I must say I learned a lot about when to use the Elmar and when the APO. At no time I wanted to compare them as alternatives. If I had a normal Summicron at my disposal I could compare that one to the APO. I think they will be very close
Keep up the great videos you are producing
Thanks Jay. Appreciate it.
Another good video that said, how does the APO 50mm compares to APO 75mm? Cheers! 🥃
Thanks a lot. I haven't compared them. For me they fulfill a different purpose. Probably hard to compare but I do own a 75mm APO. How would you go about comparing them? Maybe I could do a video in the future. From a quality perspective I would say the 50mm APO is better.
@@TheMPhotography Thanks for getting back to me so promptly, I was wondering what is the resolving power on Film between them? Both lens are sharp so that's not an issue for me although I own a APO 90mm as well and I find the APO 7mm lens it resolves more.
I see. You were referring to the resolving power on film. Haven't really checked side by side. I would assume they are comparable. I shot a lot of portraits with the 75mm APO on film (Ektachrome, Fuji Pro 400h and Portra) and I love it.
The M Photography I would love to see an 75apo test from you 😊
amzing comparison! very fair! very comprehensive! you are a bad influence! now i wanna get the 50mm apo........
Thanks a lot! Glad you liked it. Go for it. Don't stop yourself ;-) 🙈
I’m currently debating between the 50 apo and 50 f1 noctilux as my next purchase. I have the voigtlander 50 1.2 and Summicron dr. The voigtlander is sharp enough at f2 but lack of leica look, the dr has classic rendering but resolution is not good enough. Since I tend to shoot 50mm and long on film, which lens would you recommend to get? I know it’s apples and oranges.....
Yeah. It's really hard to tell or give a recommendation. You basically highlight the strengths and weaknesses of the lenses you mentioned. I personally am not a fan of the nocti but I can totally see why some people are.
Ya. I guess sometimes you have to own a lens for a while to see if it fits your style and needs. Maybe it’s a part of fun of photography
Totally agree. It's mostly good not to change gear and lenses too much.
Thanks for the comparison!
I'm just wondering, how you have enjoyed changing those Leica bodies and, especially, changing the tripod mounting plates )))
Thanks for watching! I did not at all :-) I am actually not even the biggest fan of tripods in the first place. I guess curiosity outweighed the pain.
Hello. Just a thought, but I don't think you need that (distracting) background music - your voice is mellifluous enough!
Hi Wayne. Thanks for watching and your feedback. I was debating with myself when editing the video if I should leave the music in the background and was not 100% convinced either. Good to know. Appreciate your comment. And I learned a new word. I didn't know the word "mellifluous" ;-)
Great information! Gotta love the Yankees. ✌️
😉
Nice computer! I use the same one.
Very interesting video. I shoot both film and digital (on Leica cameras and other types) and both the M6 and M-D shots with the APO 50mm have pleasing aesthetics. The Elmar is characterful but also a little disappointing. How does the Elmar perform on the M-D?
Thanks Sam. I didn't try it on the M-D yet but I don't think it's the look I am looking for on the M-D. Maybe I will try it some day. Dunno if I will make a video though.
Which photographer - professional or amateur - will be spending $9K for a 50/2.0 lens?! What's missing is a comparison between the latest regular 50/2.0 Summicron version versus the APO version. I am sure it is not worth the difference in price for 99% of taken photos (I have the regular 50/2 Summicron, and it is super sharp already). The 50 mm Elmar is an older f/2.8 lens design, so it is like comparing apples with oranges here.
Thanks for watching. If I had the latest Summicron version at hand I would gladly compare both. As for the comparison to the Elmar I was just curious how big of a difference it is. In this video I mainly wanted to find out if it was worth shooting or owning a 50mm APO while being a film photographer.
Funny how the md wants more light while the photo of the woman looked blown out on the nose compared to the m6
Yes. Definitely shows how light sensitivity is a tricky thing.
Very cool.
I always use a lens hood.
HP5 and tri x are not films that show detail.
Thanks for watching. I wanted to see grain and how it is rendered as well as the geometry of the lens. Fully agree with you that for a sharpness comparison a finer grain is better.
Why use a low quality high grain with a quality digital.
I believe that you used an Epson flatbed scanner, V850, to scan the negatives. This scanner ( I have the V700 which is more or less the same scanner but with a cold light rather than LED ) is not suitable for scanning 35mm negatives ( it is usable for 120 film and 4X5 ). It can not hold the 35 mm negatives flat since it uses flimsy plastic negative holders which allow the film to curl up and loose definition during scanning plus the fact that despite Epson's claims the true optical resolution of the system is measured to be about 2400 p/i. It also has much lower D-Max for scanning film than a dedicated film scanner such as my Nikon LS-50 ED ( unfortunately long out of production ) which has a true optical resolution of 4000 p/i. The biggest problem with an Epson V700/800 is the lack of autofocus. Even if the height of the holder has been adjusted accurately using a third party height adjustable holder such as the ones from ' Better Scanning ' in the US this focus height is not repeatable due to the different curvature of the emulsion for different film bases. The Elmar is a very old design and lower contrast is expected when compared to a modern Leica lens with an Apo design. Lower contrast combined with the indifferent performance of the scanner can yeild the negs rather soft and unsharp compared to digital or a neg from an Apo lens. This was an entertaining comparison but the conclusions are rather flawed. If you deicded to repeat the experiment I'd suggest that you do not use a grainy/low contrast film such as Ilford HP5. This film is known for its tonality and dynamic range and not sharpness. A film such as a high res Adox film is more suitable and use a dedicated proper film scanner or better still have negs drum scanned @ 6000 p/i. Thanks for this presentation.
Thanks for the detailed feedback. I wish I had a drum scanner at my disposal.
@@TheMPhotography Not many people do.
One day we'll A/B test you ;-)
Looking forward ;-)
Seeing Leica M6 is like playing vinyl records via a turntable. Unfortunately most of us don’t have so much time ....
...all that shade yet he chooses to load the film under the strongest sunlight. Hmmm.
why thereś nobody around???? lol