Actually I congratulate Behringer for making an affordable series of synthesizers. Give the people what they want. Great for the entry level synth player.
Exactly. Whoever thinks behringer should donate can do so with the money saved by buying behringer products. I wonder if it is the same company the guy in the video talks about, he mentioned berenger very often, maybe he is just mispronouncing it, maybe not.
As someone who's inspired by Radiohead and in a power trio band, (I'm dead broke from pedals and guitars) Behringer synths are good enough for me especially since I use the model d in combination with playing guitar. I found this from playing guitars and I hope it applies to synths too, it doesn't matter what kind of instrument you have it's how you use it.
With those expired patents, that is actually the inteded use of the patent system. You create something, patent it and then have the sole right to manufacture it, when your patent is about to expire you can extend the patent for a fee that rises with every extension. At the point when you decide to let the patent expire, your design become publicly available and people can do whatever with that design. The patent system actually used to be a great device for continued innovation and sharing of knowledge, however today you have firms that specialize in writing the patents as vaguely as possible and companies extendeding patents almost indefinitely stifling innovation in multiple fields + all the patent trolls.
The only Behringer things I own are the recreations of Roland gear that the whole world has been BEGGING them to make for decades, but instead they make tiny, annoying emulations 😋 I bought the td-3 the moment it was available and felt absolutely nothing but joy lol
Yup. Not the biggest fan of cloning other companies stuff either, but roland asked for it. They had 30 goddamn years since these things became rare. Behringer did nothing wrong here.
@@abbygregory4982They can also protect the IP much easier with software. Also, people have no issue with a NI keybed for £500 for midi, but gasp at Juno/Jup with thousands of sounds/models.
well, you could have had an xoxbox (2006) or DINsync RE303for years before that ... not sure why you give credit to Behringer for bringing the 303 to you... i even forgot the cyclone one.. not that expensive...
Yeah I hate Behringer as much as the next cork sniffing Moog snob. But Roland has left a lot of money on the table by not revisiting their classic analog gear. Except to make little toy ACB things which were audibly not analog. My Machinedrum was acting like it might be giving up the ghost last week and I really thought about the Behringer 909 as a substitute while the Machinedrum gets fixed.
yeah, I was like, IMAGINE this conversation in Beh office: - Hey, we got new exciting synth. It's like Moog Model D, but it has more oscillators, and you can play 4 keys at a time. - Wow, what's it gonna be called? - PARA D... - gET dUh FAK auTtA Muh oFfITSE
Great video. I own a TD-3, I think cloning old gear that is no longer produced is great. That old tech SHOULD be cheap, it's old tech! But they lost me as a consumer the moment they copied the Arturia Keystep. That just seemed low and unnecessary, and it's not even that much cheaper.
Just wait until you find out that purchasing most, if not all electronics today, makes you a financial supporter of slavery, and even death in some cases. The cognitive dissonance may cripple you. Unless of course you don't actually care about that and find the copying of gear to be more egregious. 🙃 People are really weird with their selective ethical and or moral standards/principles. How can a person turn a blind eye to horrible things, but get all high and mighty about minor nothings in comparison? Frankly people like that never made sense to me. Humans are messed up. That all said, I assume you already know this stuff since you watched the video.
@@EnervatedSociety well, people like to feel good about their products, even if the ethics don't hold up to the highest degree. If all companies are as bad (I don't believe they are) then at least we want to have a positive connection to our gear when using it, and seeing what kind of people the designers and engineers are helps in some brands (Yves Usson, Tatsuya,...) others not so much. While all marketing can be deceptive in that sense, the association with creativity that the name Arturia conjures, because of the people there, is quite different from the big B. That can mean Arturia lie better than others -I for one don't think it's spin/an elaborate ruse/a false narrative/a dystopian digital simulation that there are sublime people working for Arturia, Dsi, Moog... - or it means that Uli is very honest/upfront about being a royal Farkwad. One thing you can't hide, is when you crippled inside. (see also the wooden boy-who-would-be-a-real-man at facebook) P.S. re: ethics; if a company uses domestic labour to assemble the products, and some don't, you cannot say that all companies are equally bad, that's a fallacy. And Im not even talking about Bastl, Vermona or Erica.
I agree with you that "old tech" should be cheap. I think that is where most analog synth producers screw up. Instead of reducing the price of their products over time, so more people can afford to buy them, they keep the prices artificially high because they think keeping it niche will make them more money. In some cases this works, but in most cases, they could make much more money if they bring prices down. Look at TV manufacturing as an example.
I've waffled back and forth on buying a new Behringer synth a half dozen times in just the 42 minutes of this video!! While I own a few expensive synths (Prophet-6 & UDO-6), I am very tempted by some of Beringer's semi-clones. Great video essay... hits the nail on the head!
Very good video! I have tried to be objective about B, and have come up against the same issues you have articulated here! I have owned some B synths, and I always end up selling them. They always sound pretty good, and consistently, they never inspire. For me personally, and ultimately, this comes down to a personal choice, what feels right for me, and my life, there is no place for B in my studio. It means I have fewer synths, and that I make less purchases, but am much happier with the synths that I do have. I don’t begrudge anyone for their choices in this regard, and feel strongly about my position on Uli. Thanks for a really top notch video!
Uli donated synths after a year of Benn Jordan shaming them for promising to donate and not doing anything. It appears that Uli/Behringer originally pretended to have a plan to donate, but was likely lying. It was damage control for their bad reputation. Now they are back at it again with Loopop, apparently lying and blacklisting him. This, in addition to outright copy of current market synths. There’s no way I will buy a Behringer product.
@@jellevandenberge2494 Behringer never said at the time that they had given synths. They said that those were their plans. But it was during the pandemic, remember ???...But Bennnnn Jordan was so eager to bash Behringer cause they did not consider him for the donation... Bennnn Jordan is a free synth hoarder
When Korg released a full sized keys version of MS20 - they added $1000 to the price tag. Literally nothing else was changed in the synth itself. They saw people paying "vintage tax" for the original and just increased the price 3 times for no other reason. This is why I don't get complaints about Behringer exclusively, it's like a wildfire any time the company is mentioned, while other manufacturers do equally bad, if not outright anti-consumer, things too - but you won't see whole threads dedicated to how awful and predatory Korg is.
@@JDozza Swing $119 original price, Keystep - $229. Not quite. Then again I don't see anyone complaining about cheaper Pultec EQ or Neve compressor clones where price difference is often upwards of $1000. And they literally copy circuitry, not just looks. As long as it's not Behringer, am I right?
It's a great analysis overall. I have however one important reservation over the whole "history" of analog synth revival in the introduction. After a long list of synth companies joining the game, you indeed said "then Arturia jumped in", as if they were late to the game. This is really taking things in reverse ! Arturia actually was the very company who spearheaded the analog synth revival, when nobody in the industry seemed to give a dam yet. They did so first by initiating their line of VSTs recreating the old analog sound digitally: mind you, Arturia, who is all the buzz right now, is a 20+-year old company, and they were selling such digital recreations early in the first decade of the 2000s. Then, when faced with a growing international interest for their VSTs, they gradually extended their line of product to hardware synth. Their very first hardware instrument was put on the market in 2009, making them the very first consumer company to gamble on an analog revival. By comparison, Korg's MS-20 Mini was introduced to the market only in 2013. So the story should really be something like "There was this initially small company located in the French Alps who sold digital recreations of analog synths. Faced with huge interest in their products, they launched their first hardware synth in 2009 which was a success too, several big companies then noticed the public's interest and entered the race to recreate their old masterpieces, beginning by Korg and the MS20".
Arturia's Origin in 2009 isn't analog... Thats "just a VA". Microbrute came in 2012. i say novation, first with the Bassstation 1 in 1993 :) No disrespect to Arturia though.. and the Bass Station 2 (2013) is still a great buy today ! :)
Yep, Arturia started with a clone to Rebirth/Reason Java based. That was a fail. Access & Clavia started the VA wave and Roland followed with the JP80xx. The following years shaped the market to allow hardware return.
IMHO, I honestly feel they would be more successful if they didn’t make their products direct clones, but rather insted just used similar technology, to made their products completely original, but inspired by other classic/vintage/successful products. For example, the ‘Deepmind 6/12’ is not a direct clone of a vintage analogue polysynth, but rather has a similar sound and technology of synths that are three to five times the price. Few companies that make synths that are inspired by something else, receive the same type of hate.
That's a really good point and admittedly a massive oversight on my part. I'll be addressing this oversight in a follow up video. Thanks for pointing this out!
You’re just trying to rationalize your support for a bad acting company. It’s not the end of the world, but just don’t use the excuse of “synths are too expensive!” You can get in Alpha Juno for $300-400 even today, or a AJ2 for a little more. Not only are they cheaper than a new DeepMind, they are a better synth in basically every way imaginable. I don’t know what is comparable to an Odyssey that is affordable (Roland SE-02?), but I’m sure there is something that can do the job better for approximately the same price? Again, I’m not going to condemn you for choice. Just … don’t give some phony justification for it. You bought into the hype and wanted a shiny, new product; and you either didn’t think about the ethical issues Behringer presents, or didn’t care? It’s ok. S’free country.
@@79Glitch phony justification? Nah is just a simple opinion that I am simply entitled to. You can rationalize your purchases all you want but it's phony to act like there is some absolute and be ethically above them. You wanna get to the real root of the issue? Guess what. Your opinion is subjective and I am very sedimental so they are worth more to me. I've spent 100s of great hours exploring the odyssey for instance. The closest type costs double, and I have actually tried them both and the behringer is far superior in every way compared to the korg version. Why would korg add a sequencer? Keep it closer to original and force people to buy more hardware. The only thing better about the korg was the sweet case. You are acting like it's so important that you have to put me down for it. I find that weak and pointless. You wanna argue it? I can go all day. I can give you a hundred reasons but here is the main one. You can buy the most expensive besteststs synth in world and still suck at music. It's phony to act like it matters lol.
@@79Glitch 2 years later and I still don't regret the purchases btw. I will never have enough gear but I can go pretty far with what I have. It ain't the gear that counts, it's how well you can use it. A real musician can make music on anything and even enjoy it. Should we discuss the ethics of people forcing ther opinions on others? I just made a comment you didn't agree with. I hope you can agree this is ridiculous and we could be having a constructive discussion. All you are saying is BEHRINGER BAD BEHRINGER BAD ,YOUR OPINION IS INCORRECT! I DECIDE HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR INSTRUMENTS YOU ARE WRONG YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT, I KNOW MORE THAN YOU. IM BETTER THAN YOU. that'd what I see when I read your comment that is only an opinion btw lol I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I am telling you it's wrong to think you have the right to tell me how I should feel about things I cherish.
@@79Glitchthere is no ethical consumption under capitalism. I buy and enjoy behringer gear and I don't feel an ounce of guilt, nor should anyone. I'd sooner go vegan than stop buying affordable synths from behringer.
as someone who has clompletely ignored both narratives for years and not know anything one way or another or held an opinion i found this journey completely rivetting... cheers!
Behringer had beef with Mackie in the late 90s. They made a couple of mixers that looked EXACTLY like Mackie's 4 bus and 8 bus mixers. Behringer had to redesign all of their mixers because of it. I could be wrong but I think Mackie pulled their mixers from the Sam Ash chain around the US because that store somehow distributed Behringer. Don't remember exactly, but that beef was serious
They copy the mixer names as well. The Mackie 1604 has 16 channels, each with a preamp, but Behringer has offered several '1604' mixers in different lineups over the years, with varying numbers of preamps, never as much as the Mackie. Very cringe and there are other examples of this.
Thank you for the content, well thought out. As someone who owns ALL of the Behringer clones, except the MS-1 (which I WILL be buying the MK2 of)... My problems with Behringer (some of these you detailed): 1. Behringer clones (counterfeits) in production gear which is just going too far IMO. This isn't simply a patent expiration issue. The cloning of the Arturia Keystep and Moog M32/DFAM/Sub triad just pisses me off. 2. All the cost R&D is footed by those they clone 3. All the cost of market viability is footed by those they clone 4. Behringer does everything it can to not pay for others' IP 5. The whole charity thing. This is NOT a plus. Uli tried to pull a fast one but rightly got called out. It's misguided and gross that you are now simply giving them accolades. They got caught. 6. Behringer's PR is disgusting 7. Behringer is almost entirely an off-shore company that doesn't give a shit about anything but their bottom line 8. Behringer IS breaking laws, but it's too costly to litigate. A perfect example of this is that while Auratone won that lawsuit to stop Behringer from simply taking their name to sell their shitty speakers, the lawsuit only covered American markets. Auratone would have to sue again to stop Behringer from stealing their name globally. And even when they aren't outright breaking laws, they are skirting them by making nominal changes a la moving some pots around. It's still blatant. They copied the shit out of DevilFish for example, someone else's industrial design. didn't pay a dime. It's gross. Behringer has more lawyers than R&D and that's why they don't get sued. 9. Most importantly - Behringer COULD BE innovating by releasing truly new gear (a la Deepmind and Neutron) rather than, by numbers, simply cloning at lower prices Finally, the Akai Timber Wolf is actually pretty cool. Yes, the filter is dreadful and there are limited waveshaping controls, but the raw tones are great and the multi-outs brings a lot of processing abilities. I will never sell mine. Finally part 2. The Roland ACB stuffs is really good. Yes, the GAIA sounds like crap as do all their last-gen stuffs, but the Aira and Boutique ACB stuffs sound great. The System-8 is an absolute beast. It's pretty much an inevitability that analogue gear will be relegated to the elitists in the future, that everything will be digital as costs of analogue go up and as sound quality of digital emulation goes up. Roland is doing a good job of pushing the technology even though its guilty of shameless repackaging and misguided name recycling. Finally part 3. Moog, Dave Smith, Arturia, Korg, Doepfer, Eowave, MeeBlip, etc all producing excellent analogue gear, much of it entirely affordable. Finally part 4. I own a Poly-D. I don't mind that they called it Poly even when it's only paraphonic because they aren't the only ones to do that. I DO mind that the distortion sounds dreadful and it does NOT sound like a "poly" Model-D. Finally part 5. I absolutely must disagree that the K2's build quality is as good as Korg MS-20: The Behringer's pots are woefully wobbly and the "wood side paneling" is just plain bad quality. But yes, sound-wise Behringer did good here. Absolute finally. My opinion is that you are misrepresenting the lengths that Behringer goes through to disrespect IP vs. all the other companies. There is no other synth-centric company that comes even close to the disrespect that Behringer routinely displays. And bro, this has very little to do with elitism in terms of cost or brand. That's a weak argument. There's such a limited number of people who's overriding concern is elitism. Like I've detailed, many companies produce affordable quality gear, even the high-end ones. MOST of their truly expensive gear is that expensive because it's out of production. There isn't a parallel with any other budget synth producer. It is what it is.
Didn't the whole charity controversy turn out to be quite an embarrassement for Benn Jordan whose allegations against Behringer regarding this matter were unjustified? And yes, they are making copies - some of them blatant, like the Swing, some of them easily justifiable, like the Model D. There is no need to condemn the company as a whole for making copies when there are good and bad ones. We can decide on what (not) to buy and show them what we are (not) willing to support through their sales figures.
@@LousyFacelift I don’t think that’s what happened. Behringer made public assertions about what it was going to do for PR but didn’t follow through. At all. As I understand it, it wouldn’t have happened if Benn hadn’t called them out. I could be wrong. As to their copy to innovation (new) model ratio, my opinion is that they rest far too heavily on the copying end. I absolutely agree that there’s no shame in making copies of out of production gear (or, I should say, old gear that’s long past trademark/patent protection), so Model-D, TD-3,K,MS-1,etc all good. It’s just the copying of new, in-production gear that irks me (and the ratio). Bear in mind that the whole Peter Kirn thing centered on Behringer flagrantly ripping of the Ebtech Swizz-CT, in-production gear from a small company that doesn’t have the means to compete or litigate. Copying the big guys is one thing, but doing it to more boutique, family operators vendors in kind of shit. And then Behringer doubled down with the wave of legal threats to multiple people who simply commented on it on a bulletin board. Brutal. That’s where I really question the integrity of that company, where they clearly have more lawyers than music lovers. Agreed we can all pick and choose, but when a company crosses a line too far, I personally just won’t support them and I’ll speak up. Having said that, I don’t think they are the anti-Christ and I think they actually have a lot of potential to start truly innovating after they exhaust their cloning options. Like, the XR18 is absolutely fantastic, which I bought over the Tascam and Zoom n the merits of the device itself, irrespective of price. I so want them to do more of that, less of the clones. To be frank, I do not think that this recent trend of cheap clones is good for anyone, as good as some of them are. People are buying them up often just because they think they are saving money relative to the used OG’s, but they are often buying stuffs that isn’t really suited to them artistically. Like, the TD-3 isn’t even remotely a productive device and putting that money into something more suitable would have been better for them (not to mention behringer raided all the schematics from open source materials).
@@alexwestconsulting I came across a reply to Benn somewhere in the comment section of his video shortly after it was posted, making it clear he was missing important info on the current status of this whole campaign back then. That Uli had already taken measures to organise the distribution of synths to charity, that he was in charge of some of the process and everything was really quite legit. And wasn't there even an apology posted by Benn, soon afterwards? I totally enjoy the TD-3 (even more than the TD-3 MO btw.). There is absolutely nothing to complain about there, if you ask me. If people make the wrong choices that's their problem but they are still much better off paying only 100,- €/$ instead of 3000,- €/$ for this type of mistake...
One of the big problems with the Behringer synths is their overall lack of support, and features either not working correctly or being broken with updates which never get resolved. For instance, on their SH-101 clone, there's a load of issues with synchronisation and a known issue with the glide knob missing part of it's range. With a lot of these synths, the obvious functionality works and is close enough, but as soon as you dig deeper you find problems which you have to work around, and that you never got with the originals. It's frustrating as these things should be relatively straight forward fixes, but it looks like they do a small amount of active support for their products before concentrating on releasing something else.
They did fix the envelopes in their Mono/Poly and in the Pro800 and there seems to be an MS-1 MK ll on its way. I don't think not fixing the issues of one thing and just releasing an MK ll version is cool but we have already seen that from many companies like the Dave Smith Proohet 8 with its pots issue for example, which is also a lot more expensive... I don't know of any other examples for missing support or serious let downs. Surely my RD-8 MK l isn't perfect, the most annoying part is the level of the rimshot that's way too loud but still a great deal and completely usable.
Hi Robert - That's an excellent summary of the events caused by and surrounding Behringer, all in one place. Everyone should wwatch this (and your other B video) if they want an informed and unbiased account of events 👍
I once released a song in the key of G imagine my horror at finding out thousands of artists have since cloned the key of G that I worked so hard on and not even crediting me tsk tsk🤣🤣
I like Behringer. I have a bunch of effects from my Bass playing days. But, Behringer has broken open the flood gates and now everybody is coming up with their own affordable stuff. I'm getting into the Roland S 1 Tweak along w/ the Neutron, Crave, Swing 32, and K2 from Behringer. I've got tons of effects circuits in my old Tab electronics book library. The circuits are old, and you could probably get Chat GPT to program a microcontroller (like the ESP 32) to create any type of synth you desire. So, it's kinda easy to get around the tech IP nowadays. Also, PC synths available from online are a fantastic resource. As are the other offerings (Patches! Make me sound like Vangelis. :P ). Competition is good for consumers like myself. Do you think I complain of some of the great low priced gear out there because I liked the original, but can only swing the clone? These are legit good pieces of gear on their own right. If I can get the sound I want out of it, it's all good even if it's a knock off. Here is Jarvishere's version:> Here is some initial code that could be used to implement the functionality of a classic Moog synthesizer on an ESP32 microcontroller: // Pin definitions #define OSC1_PIN 5 #define OSC2_PIN 16 #define FILTER_CV_PIN 4 #define ADSR_PIN 0 // Oscillator 1 variables float osc1Freq = 440; float osc1Waveform = SINE; // Oscillator 2 variables float osc2Freq = 880; float osc2Waveform = SAWTOOTH; // Filter variables float filterCutoff = 1000; float filterResonance = 5; // ADSR envelope variables float attackTime = 0.1; float decayTime = 0.2; float sustainLevel = 0.5; float releaseTime = 1; void setup() { // Initialize oscillator pins as outputs pinMode(OSC1_PIN, OUTPUT); pinMode(OSC2_PIN, OUTPUT); // Initialize filter CV pin as output pinMode(FILTER_CV_PIN, OUTPUT);
// Initialize envelope pin as input pinMode(ADSR_PIN, INPUT); } void loop() { // Generate oscillator 1 waveform float osc1Value = generateWaveform(osc1Waveform, osc1Freq); // Generate oscillator 2 waveform float osc2Value = generateWaveform(osc2Waveform, osc2Freq); // Combine and filter oscillators float filterInput = osc1Value + osc2Value; float filteredValue = filter(filterInput, filterCutoff, filterResonance); // Shape output with ADSR envelope float output = adsrEnvelope(filteredValue, attackTime, decayTime, sustainLevel, releaseTime); // Output to pins analogWrite(OSC1_PIN, osc1Value); analogWrite(OSC2_PIN, osc2Value); analogWrite(FILTER_CV_PIN, filterCutoff); analogWrite(outputPin, output); } // Functions to generate waveforms, filter, and apply ADSR This covers the basic signal flow and control possibilities of a classic Moog. Let me know if any part needs more explanation or expansion to fully emulate the analog synth on an ESP32!
some of the people who singled out the employment conditions in china for criticism probably wrote their remarks on a laptop or ipad. it's a tricky one, this- I remember the start, bits of their gear turning up at work (a big music broadcaster) where we used the ultracurve's memories to save loads of set-up time, for example, but at the same time being a bit put off by things like the mackie, boss & EHX "knockoffs", which were blatant. of course it was intentional- the design cues & functionality of the actual products was copied so that it would sell. he made a quick pile, perhaps setting some aside for lawyers- who knows? but for the most part the equipment was reasonably well-made & did what it was expected to do *at that price point*. had my band been gigging every week, say, I'd've bought a mackie desk, but we made do with a £300 behringer because it was fine. I still have it here, & it still worked, after changing some capacitors in the PSU. hardware's fine. more recently, & more out of curiosity than anything, I bought a pair of the copy 960 sequencers; I am a bit of a collector of analogue sequencers, but the current price of original units puts them out of the reach of my GAS. the build quality is reasonable again, & they do what they're supposed to. but right after that impulse buy, I got wind of the kirn story. TL;DR- he's a bit of a goal-mouth poacher who's lately dropping back into midfield & making the odd play from further back (I'm thinking of some of the original designs he's launched, the deepmind & so on), but he's been involved in some questionable off-the-ball incidents, & 'corksniffer' earned him a straight red here.
There’s a difference between using a China made laptop because you have no other options, and willfully employing foreign slave labor for capitalist corporate gains. One case involves a choice. The other doesn’t.
9:10 These competitors can stop coping over competition. Yes. That’s how competition works. Now Behringer has taken too far in individual instances and there is a reason why they have settlements that forced them to change but the general practice is just called competition. Unless you believe in monopolies
ANNNNND when other companies don't like competition... they sue. Any of these companies could have done the exact same thing over the last 10 years. But they didn't.
it's not the competition that bothers people. Peavey, Ibanez and others made a name for themselves selling cheap gear. It't the shitty way Behringer tries to suppress negative opinions of them.
Behringer is purposely coming as close as possible to infringing on the IP and trade dress of their competitors without (they claim) breaking the law. This would usually be considered an anti-competitive business practice. In my view, flooding the market with low profit margin knockoffs isn’t a tactic to make money. It’s a tactic to harm your competitors and capture their market share. The goal of a business model like Behringer’s is to form a monopoly.
@@plateoshrimp9685 no... because they're building synths no one else is making... how does that harm their competitors? Where's the Korg Mono/poly that they're now losing millions of dollars on LOL. (also, your above examples just aren't true. There's plenty of things that you just can't copyright that millions of companies make money off of. The bicycle seat is a good example. Can't copyright it, yet dozens and dozens of companies make them.. and they all make money doing so).
I've picked up a few Behringer synths because I am new to the synth world and it's a cost effective way to get into it. I'm not fond of Plug-ins (VST instruments), although I do like effect plugins (reverbs, delays, etc.). The Behringer synths enable me to explore, learn and use instruments that I would have never been able to afford otherwise. It's opened up my world of music production beyond what I could have ever imagined. In addition it's inspired me to learn more about the original brands that Behringer has cloned, as well as the history of synthesizers in general. I believe it's a win win for all. At the end of the day I'm using tools that I'm able to get my hands on. Knowing what I know now, if I were into synthesizers a few years back (when one could get originals at a cheaper used price) then I would own a CS-80, Jupiter 8, an 808 and a Trident (Not even sure if I could afford those synths when they were at their lowest used price anyways). Regardless, you get the idea. As of now musicians are lucky to have some access to analog synthesizers without having to break the bank. There's no shortage of tools that inspire and I'll happily look at all options out there. With that said, I have zero problem picking up used Behringer synths as well! Even better!
For me, it's the Kirn thing that lands Behringer into the "no support" category. The fact that Uli didn't make a proper apology, and even deleted his apology, tells me it was all PR, and he didn't care nor feel sincere about it. In other words, Uli sided with whoever made and approve the commercial. Otherwise, we'd have a different type of apology. And it wouldn't be deleted/retracted for whatever reason.
The corksniffer video was pretty funny and honestly cathartic for those around the snobbery for many years. People also miss that Kirn around this whole time period was making money endorsing and producing boutique gear though in the background. So he was using his influential platform to reduce his competition (cost cutting, high quality firms like Behringer) but under the guise of an unbiased information resource. It’s really more about two companies with influence attempting to gain leverage against the other than poor little journal being attacked.
@@sibbyeskiestill pretty small time behaviour. Also, boutique gear isn't really the market Behringer is operating in. If I had the money to drop on boutique gear I wouldn't be doing it with either Kirn's stuff or Behringer.
The crossroads at the end of this essay reminded me of Robert prising “ If your mind is truly, profoundly stuck, then it might be much better off than when it was loaded with ideas.”
Great video, probably one of the few videos longer than 10 minutes I've ever watched on RUclips that wasn't a music performance. Between behringer and Roland's boutique series I've basically been able to rebuild my modest collection of studio equipment I had in the early 2000s that I had to sell (and a few others I thought I'd never actually own) that I simply would not pay current prices on. They might not be exactly the same but I don't care, they're wee boxes that make noises. I've seen people argue about the td3 missing the "top 10% of squelch" really??? Is anyone on a dancefloor going to down tools because "ooh thats not quite hitting the top 10% of squelch, that must be a behringer and not a Roland" fucking behave man. The big comment from the guy at the start is right on the money, every company is at it so you either live like a hobo in the forest or participate.
"every company is at it so you either live like a hobo in the forest or participate." only if you're an extremist. yes, the modern world is complex, but it doesn't take much to make choices. ruclips.net/video/ODWWnTAqcsg/видео.html
The Behringer gear from the 90’s of which I owned a few bits of outboard was not great, fairly poor build quality and a fair amount of hiss, I have to say that Behringer are now a more superior company. If you can afford the originals do it, if you want a copy then buy one, there are no rules to buying good sounding kit. My studio has high end Sequentials and Moogs but also an RD8, DM12 and a couple of TD3’s and I mix on the superb X32 rack straight to MacBook. It all sounds great together and the build quality is really pretty good with the Behringer gear compared to the high-ticket price gear. Keep rocking it Behringer, we need a few disrupters in the market place to keep things progressing forward for us synth musicians
I have no problems at all with a company in the 2010’s cloning 70’s and 80’s synths. My only qualms were with the “copies” of recent products that are still being produced by the original manufacturer (yes I’m thinking of Moog). I bought the originals despite B’s alternatives and I don’t regret it. The fact that Moog haven’t made legal moves against them makes me wonder if there might be an agreement that we aren’t aware of. Who knows?
Listened to the whole upload whilst i was cooking this evening. Interesting breakdown of things, thanks for taking the time for this, even with 5 re-writes of the ending! Some songs are like that too right? Good job 🤜
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! Yeah, music can definitely also be a bit like that too. Nice use of the M8 btw, just having a look at some of your music, really cool stuff! I was always fascinated by that device but am too committed personally to my daw workflow
@@RobertOBlivion thank you Robert, that's very kind! I can understand driving with what you know, I have a few devices now and know none of them inside out like I should do! Hoping with more time (and less GAS) I'll get to where I wanna be! Thanks for leaving comment on my track to dude, nice one!
Behringer model D - I can play it on stinking pub gigs, wall to wall writhing drunks and not care - it's one of the cheapest instruments on the stage - sounds 10/10😃
Its so small you can also slap the first pretentious drunkard at the bar in the face with it once they start throwing the behringer clone war story at you. I have one too and love it.
I started with a MinilogueXD last year(love it) Picked up a Drumbrute Impact 5 months ago(love it) got the TD-3-MO 2 months ago and its my favorite to play. I never dug into the drama but knew it was there to a degree.
Opinion pre-watch: Behrenger's biggest flaw is their absolute garbage support. Their QA sucks too, but if you could get your stuff fixed under warranty it would mitigate that somewhat. Unfortunately it is damn near impossible to even register a device under warranty unless you do it the moment you take it out of the box... which most folks don't do because (obviously) people typically order online and want to make sure they want to keep it; once you register it, good luck with a return.
Whew, this is high quality content, Robert 👍 I suppose I'll have to watch this video at least one more time. I used to use Behringer gear since the olden days of the LX1/X V-Amp in the mid-noughties. But as time passed, I wouldn't buy a Behringer Swing MIDI controller nowadays having become a loyal Arturia customer. On the other hand, I'm happy with my DeepMind and Neutron (original products) as well as my Pro-1, Pro-800 and Cat synths (reissues of vintage analog machines). Thanks for your deep research and the valuable insights provided in this video.
As a company, if I were accused of shit like this and there was public support, and if I thought they were wrong, I would, as CEO, 100% debate it in good faith. The fact that that has not occurred is a pretty big sign that this has been salvaged by them to be, AT BEST, vague and unsure. They are definitely bad, and likely for all things mentioned. Defending them "because capitalism" is not a good defense, it's the moderate boomer cynical rationalization that allows one do reprehensible bullshit. This being said, you've brought up several points that don't deal with their ethics or morality that are notable. Also, idgaf who represents them, they are the same company. Abstracting is diffusing through obfuscation, and that's also bullshit. If they do bad shit, they are a bad company. Psh, blaming the marketing company. That's bullshit if I've ever seen it. Don't insult our intelligence, Behringer.
Aside from questionable corporate behavior, what has Behringer done with analog synths that hasn’t been done with guitar pedals? Almost all “boutique” distortion pedals are a Tube Screamer with an extra knob.
From that framing I'd say the main difference is market share and price focus. Most boutique pedals are pretty expensive and market themselves on artisan construction quality. Behringer's focus is keeping things cheap and affordable and everywhere, whereas boutique pedals tend to be more limited production runs with an emphasis on quality, exclusivity and a higher price. People tend to assume something that's more expensive is more valuable, so that narrative is very useful within that space
@@RobertOBlivion I’m talking more like the designs. Which given your point, I think Behringer comes out on top as far as ethics goes. Make no mistake, those boutique makers have taken apart, studied, and rebuilt the same 3 circuits for decades. But boutique pedal makers have this attitude around them like everything they make is original or something. But it’s usually a Boss pedal with a different EQ.
the thing is they barely even bother putting the extra knob. they could do modern versions of the synths; they do a 1:1 copy and plonk a usb port and call it a day. (no that's not easy but if you spend ressource reverse engineering a synth might as well add a few modern comodities like a few extra digital LFOs).
@@valdir7426 plenty of pedal companies do that too. Would you rather pay $3K for a basic overdrive pedal, or like $150 for a copy? If you’re talking about MODERN copies like the stupid Keystep copy, I’m with you. That’s basically wrong in my opinion. But making a Model D when almost none of us will ever buy the original and quite frankly the original is overpriced, I think they’re doing the world a service.
@@koalemos1679 I am talking about modern copies; they've done that with every successeful eurorack module and that's really shitty; specially when these modules were originally designed by small boutique manufacturers who absolutely can't compete.
I agree with your skeptical approach and uncertain stance. While it would admittedly be reasonable to guess, based on currently available evidence, that Behringer is "probably" in the wrong on a few of these issues, for the moment we're forced to presume innocence.
I know of one case where a Behringer copy of a design (and use of a colour scheme / control layout / lettering), where an enhanced version of this design is still in production by the original company, caused a lot of hurt and financial damage to the employees of the original company. This company simply doesn't have the financial resources to fight Behringer in court, and has to just let it go. There is a real cost to other companies, and their employees, by Behringer's actions. When your cheap Behringer clone synth/pedal/device is broken and ready for landfill in a handful of years - as it won't make sense financially to repair it - how will you feel about it? Myself, I'll never spend any money with Behringer because of their 'ethics'.
Generally speaking, everything has both light and dark. Businesses and manufacturers are no exception. They have marketing departments that usually do their best to "play up" the light and try their best to sweep the dark stuff under a rug. I don't know for certain what dark secrets any musical instrument developers/manufacturers hold, but what I do know is that the demo videos I've watched from Behringer for some of their soon to be released ("soon" at the time of this writing) micro synths (especially the Pro VS Mini) absolutely brought joy to my heart. The sound of it ❤ I just can't wait to get my hands on it and play.
" They have marketing departments that usually do their best to "play up" the light and try their best to sweep the dark stuff under a rug." Small synth makers don't have "marketing departments". There is more choice in the world than B or A(rturia).
As an older guy who grew up looking at and not being able to afford the originals i love the clone and nostalgia thing. Surprised how big the market for these seems to be though. OK the Roland machines, even the modular, the MS20 but all those more obscure vintage synths like a string machine, syncussion, Toro ?, CR78 - i would have assumed there is a very very small market for those.
The other side of this coin is that I'm genuinely at a loss when trying to find serious artists and producers who use these niche synth builds in their tracks or sets though. It seems to me a lot of these more obscure units are aimed at what I call the 'noodle market' - ie. people who really just enjoy tinkering with synths and sound design, and not so much in composition or music production.
Yup. I'm 61, and bought my first synth used for $400.00. This was 1981, and it was all I could afford. I was happy until a friend brought his Korg MS-20 (10?) over...that thing sounded great! I would have killed to be able to own one, or a Minimoog, or a an Arp 2600...all that stuff was out of reach for me. Then things moved on and nobody wanted them anymore. I ended up doing the Ensoniq sampling workstation thing for years, and then on to the computer. I never did get to own or use any of those old dream synths. Behringer changed everything for me. And while I don't crank out the new DAWless tunes as often as I used to on the 'puter, I'm immensely enjoying my time exploring the classic designs. Finally, I've come full circle. And I'm SO grateful to have finally scratched that old itch! BTW...I sold that first synth I bought in 1981 last year for $3500.00. Turns out it was very rare! 😮 Fun times.
I'm not a synth nerd, but when I am a musician and composer. When I was about 12 I convinced my parents to buy me my first pair of "real" headphones. My 12 year old self did some online browsing and came across Behringer, the way the headphones were marketted, they seemed so premium, granted I was only 12 but still, I was looking at all the data like the frequency response and stuff (that's when I learned about frequency response) and it all seemed so impressive, coupled with the premium looking product photos. So my mum ordered them for me, and when I received them, such disappointment... They felt like they were made of the lowest grade, lightest, crappy plastic. The earpad foam was the worst I've probably ever felt even to this day. The earpad covers felt like they were made of black bin bag plastic. I felt so let down. Oh and the actual audio quality was very mediocre, I wasn't at all impressed. They sounded worse than the 15 euro pair of headphones my dad bought me on a whim when I had to stay in hospital for 2 weeks and didn't have anything to listen to music with a year or so later. That was my only experience ever buying a Behringer product, and honestly it turned me off them for good. But then again I don't have any experience with their more "high end" products so...
I think there's also that gatekeeping thing. A certain youtuber said "Hey, synthesizers are luxury items, if you want to make music and you can't afford them, go and download VCV Rack or VST plugins and use them." Like... the rest of the music industry has a *price range* for every pocket. But not synths? What makes them more special than, let's say, an electric guitar. Fender is still going strong despite the TONS of clones of their stuff. So yeah, a lot of the flack that Behringer gets is, in part, the culture of "These synths are luxury items, hardware is for those who invest." On the other hand, Behringer (and their CEO) is a company. Companies are never in for the good of their hearts. So yeah, probably (as most companies, mind you) are cutting corners, exploiting their workers (especially in China) and exploiting the laws to save money here and there. So yeah, the cheaper the company sells their products, the more they are cutting corners elsewhere. And on the third hand: C'mon, everyone is crying that Moog is being sold to another company and changing... and no one blames the really blind decision to re-release a 50 years-old synth at 5k$? People are paying that for the *originals* since they are a collectable. A re-release carries the same things they stick up to Behringer: No innovation, just doing the same thing but hey... this is a luxury item. Where's Moog more affordable and new synths? That's right. They lived off the rent of their past. That has a limit. Other synth companies aren't doing bad... and they don't care much about the copies. They do new stuff, they carry on their reputation. That's why it works. So yeah, people tend to forget that yes, we live in a Capitalist world and there's also a lot of "elite gatekeeping" too tossed around (and fanboyism). I for one, don't think I'm spending money on Behringer, but not for being copycats, but because they are pretty shitty to deal with critics and Uli seems another copy of Elon Musk.
Moderation is key when it comes to interpreting what has been presented and discussed on the big old web about any topic. Belief can only be formed through experience rather than by observation.
Because there is this level of accusation and confusion, at the end of the day I'd rather save a bit more and buy from another brand. But I'm happy to try a Beh from time to time if they come up with something really good and unique...Fortunately there is a much better range now days...
As many people have said, and will continue to say, "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism". As you observed, if it wasn't Behringer doing this, it would be someone else. A marketplace will always produce winners and losers, thus producing either a race to the bottom (Behringer, Amazon copying popular listings), collusion between major players (ISPs in the USA, RealPage), or the logical conclusion of market monopoly (power companies in the UK, Microsoft). The Behringer debate is a microcosm of capitalism's inherent bias away from progress and innovation, instead preferring exploitation and consolidation to maximize profits (and thus, maximizing power).
4:44 Dave Smith Instruments were actually the ones reopening interests in analog synths, when they released the Prophet 08 in 2007, after a long period during which no brand had released an analog synth ! The Korg MS20 Mini only happened 6 years after the Prophet 08 :)
Nice video. I feel caught in the middle, to some extent. 5 years ago I would not touch anything Behringer. Now I own a B2600, Model D and a few Eurorack modules. But, I think I am done. For the price of the cheap Behringer clones I can get on Reverb and buy a used Elektron Model or some Arturia gear that comes guilt free.
Right, jumping on healthy discussion, since this topic is also bothering me. I love analog gear. I love digital gear, but not as much as I love analog. There's why. I've started making music like 15 years ago, and at the time, even tho I've had like 5-7 big gear shops in the city, everything was hella expensive. Everybody was playing metal music, so shops were focusing on guitars, guitar gear, romplers and stage equipment (mixers, lights, etc.). I was playing some gigs with metal bands as a guitarist, but in 2009 I randomly got into Portishead and it changed my life. I've never thought that music can sound like that. So in order to get this "sound of the future" I've been buying everything "unusual" which I could afford. I've had a cheap ribbon mono synth (something like Monotron), couple of pedals, some of which were broken, hybrid guitar amp with digital reverb and delay, guitar and bass. My friend had Casio rompler and we bought a shit mic from our friend who worked as sound engineer in a blues club. With all that, me and my friend started to explore what's possible. Putting rompler through pedals, using broken pedals for "lo-fi" sounds, playing guitar with screwdriver, whatever we could come up with to overcome the limitations of our gear. And to this day, this process of "overcoming obstacles" is major part of my creative method. Advanced digital synths are great, convenient and powerful, software is AWESOME, but I really love to do 80% of my work on something simple and dumb, like Arturia Minibrute (2013 edition), or Moog Mother32, or even on Korg Volca. I mostly produce with hardware, but I use mostly software for mixing. And that's why I have this love/hate relationships with Behringer. On one hand, I really should be a Uli fanboy, since he puts all this analog cool gear on a market for a cheap. On the other, it's a low hanging fruit. Land of instant gratification. Instead of being creative trying to reproduce sounds with what you already have, and saving up and working your way to original products, you can just get a readily available cheap substitute. Limitations force you to learn your stuff and be creative with it, patience pays off. I'd rather have 1 synth I'm 100% familiar with, than a 10 synths I know for 10%. On a less philosophical part of debate, the industry itself paved the way for Uli. People asking Roland constantly to make a proper reissue of their stuff, and they ignore that. If there's a demand, someone 100% will jump on it to create a proposition. Even tho Behringer products really contradict my worldview and my personal philosophy, I still have quite a temptation sometimes to get myself a Behringer clone of TR909 or CR-78. Maybe I should just go DIY.
I've had a very similar experience myself. Pushing limited gear is such a great way to create. You're right that the synth industry left a hole for Behringer to step into, which needs to be factored in. There is an enjoyment to playing the game of synth collection, starting small and working up. I guess economic realities make it impossible for some to seriously play this game though, which makes a cheap minimoog arguably a good thing. It's unclear how to parse the ethics of all of this. DIY would actually be a pretty good way to bypass the whole thing. I spent some time making pedals, that was hella fun. Synth diy looks hella fun as well, but way more involves and time consuming. For me I have to factor in how much of my life I can dedicate to my creative pursuits, and at some point I chose I'd rather focus on making music with what I do have and wait a few decades before jumping into diy. Thanks for sharing, and happy music making!
@@RobertOBlivion Thanks! I guess the other point in this is that it's not always about what Behringer doing, but rather how. For example, Klon is one of the most cloned pedals, but independent boutique builders don't get as much heat as Behringer gets. Studio Electronics made their name by making Moog-inspired synths (they even had one made with Roland), but somehow Behringer's take on a subject feels more as a purely commercial rip-off. Behringer (arguably) don't bring any additional value to the table, they just cash in on shortage of analogue synths from heritage manufacturers by making synths that are close enough to originals to not cause the legal actions. Which is kinda sad, since Deepmind or POLY D is actually Behringer going in right direction - taking classic stuff and adding something on top. Oh, also they had a pitch shifter pedal (U600, if I'm not mistaken), which was the take on Boss PS-5, and it was actually better than PS-5. Sadly it was also built like complete shit. I would love to see more new builders on scene, doing their own thing, so we can finally move on. Dreadbox is making real moves with their analog stuff, Arturia isn't universally appreciated, but I love their raw brutal sound. I also really admire Moog moving on and making stuff like DFAM or Matriarch or Mavis. Because, to be fair, even tho I'm an analog junkie, I think it's time to focus on our own sound, instead of chasing the elusive charm of the Juno or minimoog. But until we ready, Uli is gonna Uli lol) P.S. Thanks for an amazing vids, mate. MS-20 is a beast, and it took me a pretty huge willpower effort not to get the Mini version. I was on the fence between MS-20 Mini and Mother 32, and decided to go with M32, because well, every other synth I've had in my studio those days was from Korg. I had couple of Volcas (and still frequently use Volca Drum), I have minilogue, OP6, a monotron, so I was like - "Fam, calm da fuck down, it's time to explore other manufacturers, bruh". But I'm 100% buying MS-20, when I finally can afford bigger studio space lol
I love Star Trek so damn much. Only caught a few episodes of beyond believe, but love the memes of 'riker tells you you're wrong for a straight minute' 🤣
Love this video bro! In my beginning music making days I needed some things on a budget. There active DI box/ splitter and cheap bass overdrive pedal made my early drum computer recordings sound so damn good!
I'm also happy to cut a loads of wood with my 'cheap' mitre saw for years now, nobody complains about cheap tools on the market to get some job done, it's mainly about quality and durability... Basically it's all tools to use in my honest opinion and I think it's great that behringer is giving people the possibility to enter a creative field of work without going bankrupt on some hobby experiment.. I'm not sure about the company's ethics, but I think it's just great that people are able to use tools that normally would be way out of there reach and start to create out of interest without braking the bank..
Well researched video. In my experience, GlassDoor is pretty good at calling out real issues employees face in companies. (e.g. if there's smoke, there's fire.) Sure some of the people who write negative reviews were probably bitter former employees who got fired. But when enough reviews point out bad practices of the managers, beware.
The KIRN campaign was absolutely terrible. It deserved to fire the ENTIRE marketing department at Behringer. There was also the episode where they cloned an Arturia controller. The clone was so close to the original and the IP theft so obvious that it provoked a backlash among both the consumers and resellers, with Sweetwater even linking to the Arturia product every time one searched for the Behringer product. Eventually, Behringer withdrawed their product quickly. I haven't heard of bad things they have done since, so perhaps the bad publicity done to them by these two episodes has finally made them get a soul. Otherwise, I haven't anything bad to say about their products. They started with cheap analog mixers, but now have a line of mixers that is pretty awesome (the X32 and WINGS).
They are ran by a childish baboon who significantly oppresses their workers. Their products are largely good. Most their synths aren’t things I would buy, for one reason or another, but they are solid products. I agree the pedals are not great from a build perspective but the analog pedals are solid sounding. Their other hardware is very hit or miss but that’s what happens when you make everything in a “low cost, high quantity, way”
You know, can we retire the argument that anyone in the synth myth hates Behringer because they are elitist and don’t want a company to provide affordable synths? This is a myth because Korg is widely loved and accepted. Dreadbox is loved and accepted without controversy. People don’t hate Behringer for making affordable synths. Also, weird defense of late-stage capitalism. It doesn’t have to be this way, and hating bad actors and punishing them in the market is ALSO part of capitalism. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it okay. Throughout history the law has allowed all kinds of evil. “Why does everything have to be so polarized?” Because some people are harming others. When a community rallies around David instead of Goliath I see it as a beautiful thing. Why not celebrate that? And we can be generous enough to hate Behringer but not the people who choose to buy their products. Just like Amazon and ATT and Exxon suck but we don’t demonize people using their services. Late stage capitalism offers fewer options. But critique and organizing against these powers is valuable. I think you ought to see the value in that more.
Really good video and deep research. One improvement idea for the next video we will hopefully see, put something audiovice to your intros for sections. I listened your video and didnt have the luxury to watch the video untill end and I was confused about few really empty moments after your centences. Some transit music or just synth bleebs (which we all love here) would do the trick. Othervice I loved it!
As an IP specialist, I welcome these copies as long as the public is not misled. E.g. Korg could make cheap rip offs of their own products to serve the buyer with little money, but they don't. The "poor" custmer (iow musician) couldn't afford the expensive "original" anyway.
Regardless of how close the topology is or how similar the units are to the original, the filters are never quite the same. That being said, it’s not the worst substitute for something you can no longer purchase new. I’m not even gonna get into the ethics of it that’s just the surface.
I'd like to comment that there was one particular incident which I believe caused the cork sniffer response. Please don't take this as a justification but simply as trying to understand how this came about - As far as I know Kirn had published a list with alternative products from other companies to all the synths Behringer had released without any explanation to why in his opinion people should avoid buying Behringer products. Again - I don't mean to justify the cork sniffer thing but I can understand how something like that can provoke such an emotional reaction. When I watch Benn Jordan's video where he's accusing them of making "counterfeits" and calling the Behringer work facilities "prison complex" without comparing to any other company's workplace, I don't know how I would respond to that if I were in charge. I think they do have a disruptive business model and part of that conflict was clearly pre-programmed. I don't see the need to judge over the company as a whole, there are some products that should be criticised and others that I fully support and applaud them for. What we (don't) purchase is a direct vote for the kind of product we (don't) want them to make...
Thats the nail hit right on the head. Its complicated and just so much muck has been thrown from both sides that it comes down to every individuals belief. As for this video, great research, fantastic delivery.
I own an original set of Behringer Truth B2031A monitors. At the time they were 1/4 of the price of the Mackie HR824 they copied, but nowhere near as good. I once owned a controller keyboard but sold it because it was an ugly silver colour. Somewhere I have the cheap 2in2out USB audio thing it came with. Have bought nothing from them since until the last few weeks when I bought the Grey Meanie 2600. I am very impressed. I bought the 2600 because it was a great price due to a discount code - the Korg on sale is triple the price of the Behringer. The Korg also does not include the features from the Original ARP 2600 keyboard, the portamento and LFO as these were on the keyboard module. When Korg made a full size 2600, they put these features on the keyboard like the ARP original, but on the 2600M they left them off. So it's missing features vs a real 2600. Behringer moved things around and added the ARP 2600's keyboard features onto the front panel - so I have that LFO for example. They also added PWM control to two oscillators which the original lacked, added oscillator sync, added time controls (0.5x, 1x, 2x) to envelopes, and some other changes, I think one oscillator has more shapes than it did on the original, so it's more like one of the other oscillators. Anyway sound wise the videos online comparing them show the sound is pretty much spot on - with direct comparisons even it's super close. Watching videos and pics of the inside Behringer is using through-hole capacitors vs SMD electrolytic in the Korg - the SMD ones in old computers leak over time and are difficult to deal with. Who knows how long my 2600 will last for, and I'm making a 70's style vertical slant wooden case for it since at the moment it's a bit ugly - but so far I'm very impressed. I literally could not afford 3X for the Korg, and I would've lost useful features both added ones, and from the original. And since ARP is long gone, I don't feel bad about the IP side of things. It would be different if they were ripping off a current fledgling company.
Korg seem to have a habit of leaving the best features out of the mini versions. On the ms-20 mini's pcb someone found the circuitry necessary for them to incorporate the rev 2 filter, but with the components missing. Shows that they always intended to add that second filter as they ended up doing with the full size versions, but kept it out of their 'budget' version to create more market demand for their higher price one. With both the ms-20 and the 2600 it seems like Behringer's running circles around korg, giving more features at a lower price, basically cutting Korg's entry level units out of the market. I'm surprised to hear that Behringer's doing through hole and Korg's doing Surface Mount. I would've thought it would be the other way around. That wooden case sounds like a really cool build. I hope it goes well :)
@@RobertOBlivionI don't think they are actually using through hole tech for the whole build, they just replaced a small SMD component they used in the black/ orange version with a through hole part in the special versions Gray Meanie and Blue Marvin. They also changed the effect from a digital emulation to a real spring reverb. The Korg and the Behringer are both fantastic, the Korg being a bit closer to the original sound but the Behringer with the better extended features and - while not quite as authentic in the lower mids - also great, almost like an improved and a bit cleaner sounding MK II version.
Oh wow. Just looked those up, yeah you’re right :) I actually quite liked the later B3031A Truth monitors which has ribbon tweeters but they discontinued them. I think I’ll eventually get some Adams though. @@garethjenkins3933
The only behringer products I've ever bought, or owned, are the K2 and the TB-3-BK. Both were bought as backups, and I agree the K2 is a great unit, compared to my MS-20fs I actually prefer the sound of the K2, by just a bit, although it still remains boxed, along with the TD3, because I only bought them as backups, and personally, I don't think they'd last a full on, well worn life. That said, I've had multiple issues with brand new Moog stuff over recent years, and although I only have the 2 behringer products, I'd say on some devices, by both Moog and behringer, the builds are quite similar in QC, ie - both lacking... Been buying and selling gear since the mid 80s, and I'll just say I have nothing against people stealing ideas, it's been going on for years, - Studio Electronics with their Minimoog clones, Alesis Quadraverb, the poor man's PCM-70, OG ARP2600 using the Moog filter, etc, etc. I just wish behringer would go for quality over quantity, and in a more professional, respectable way... They sound amazing, but they'll only ever be good for landfill in the future, due in part to the cost we value them at, but also many techs probably won't want to fix the future SM circuitry issues in a £200 unit, - where's the money in that??? Still, - love to ALL feel no hate
Can't tell you how much i too love Anna Log Nick Valentine... uuh Synths as well. Personally (especially speaking as a broke-ass dude who's happy enough to scratch together some cash for a cheap clone of a vintage analog synthesizer) i'm absolutely happy Behringer produces these. And i say that as someone who kinda disliked Behringer back in the mid - late 2000s. But as i grew older and shook off the idiotic distaste for them, my opinions changed. And it changed the day i unpacked my Poly-D and cried happy tears for I had finally a Minimoog in my possession. Something i had been craving since at least 2003. So going by that, and seeing what they have released so far and are going to release (heck i even still kinda wand the Deepmind 6) i'm just happy the low-income class finally gets to play with the things the elitist snobs don't want us to play with. Anything that makes instruments more accessible to others and liberates the gear-market, is a GOOD thing in my books.
Great video, thanks! For me, the problem with Behringer is that they market their cheap little Instruments as "clones". I own a collection of vintage synths and did side by side comparisons with Behringer synths, they always disappoint as clones, and I end up selling them. I was hoping to replace my vintage synths but... Nope! However, the Behringers are pretty good synths, just not as clones. So, it's the marketing scheme, kinda like the emperors new clothes, buying cheap immitations to own all the great classics. I have a Matchbox Ferrari on my shelf, so therefore I own a Ferrari, and the whole Matchbox community agrees, yes, it is a Ferrari.
Your opinion. I had a MS20, SH 101 and 303 and the drummachines in the 1990s, hated all clone atempts that came out over the years but love the Behringer Clones, maybe compared to the originals they are 80 % of the sound which is good enought for me and definitely 100 % of the fun.
@@snörre23 whatever makes you happy. It's not just my opinion, Rob Papen made a video showing the limitations of the Behringer Ms20, and the synth tech of Anthony Marinelli explains alot of why these new synths are not the same as the old. Imo, they sound similar to the originals, but the character, the flavour and liveliness and quirks are missing. All the Behringers sound kinda similar, like the same synth, only with different features.
There is always a lot of variability when it comes to analog synths. Put two Mimimoogs side by side, or two TB-303s, or two MS-20s, and you will always notice a difference. Yes, this is even true for stuff coming from the same factory, and built within the same time period. Behringer forms no exception: all the output falls within a certain range, but there will still be small changes from synth to synth.
@@unduloid I agree, but I think this is not the case with vintage vs Behringer, it has to do with modern electronics taking shortcuts and simplifying complex ciruitry. The result is a sound that is similar to the original but less complex, less rich, less personality/flavour.
@@74goldenjet This reminds me of how guitar pedal enthusiasts will maintain how certain type of op-amp sound far superior to others, only to fail time and time again to tell pedals apart in blind tests. The same is true for synths. You see "Moog" and think: this _has_ to sound better. You see a Behringer and think: this _has_ to sound like crap. And then they do. Because that's how bias works.
Behringer came out with their effect "Bi-Phase" which is based on Mu-tron effects . After a year they changed the name for Dual Phase , but it is probably the best effect from Behringer I've had until now .
I'm new to music production. I decided few weeks ago to try synthesis. I bought Behringer pro 800. I heard from my brother in law: We don't like Behringer in my circles. I get their arguments, don't get me wrong. However, after playing for few weeks with Pro 800 I am already planning to buy Novation Peak. I would not consider buying it if I have not had the opportunity given to me by Behringer.
I'd written a long winded diatribe about Behringer..I decided...meh.. I already know they are genuinely an awful company. It takes very little research too figure that out
I know me personally if I'm buying something I do it right.. $400 isn't no chump change .. atleast to me.. I just purchased my first synthesizer a month ago, the moog matriarch and honestly I'm really happy I saved up and just went high end the sound/ build quality was worth every penny I might purchase one behringer if they ever release a 61 key vintage poly .. I may bite the bullet ... until then I'm saving for a prophet next
Interesting topics you mentioned. One thing missing is though, if there is not one doing the R&D, what are you going to copy then? It's one thing to create a clone of a vintage synth/gear. On the other hand copying IP from new stuff might kill R&D on the long run, if nobody is going to invest in it, because no one wants to pay for it and waiting for the Behringer copy. And all the Kirn moves were just cheap, law allowing it or not doesn't matter.
Option 3: There were high levels of formaldehyde in the building, but these had nothing to do with the Leukemia. Acute Leukemia is so rare that this is just a bizarre conclusion to draw based on "x can cause cancer" (what can't cause cancer?).
this video very eloquently says what i think a lot of us are thinking. sometimes its ok to not know exactly which side to take and just see the good and the bad. ide even say thats a very peaceful way to live. i kind of think if it wasnt behringer it would probably be someone else.
Interesting video. What I do know is that when they bought out Midas, their quality control improved dramatically. I have two of their MDX 4600 quad compressors. One pre Midas with the old style Behringer ear logo, and the other a mkII version which came out after they’d bought out Midas, TC electronic, Klark Teknik etc. The difference is huge. The old version is bigger with inferior knobs, switches and pots that crackle when you turn them, which also wobble a bit. Basically unusable. The new version with the newer logo has none of those problems. It seems anything with the newer logo appears to be of good quality. I also have both their line mixers, TD3, Crave and FX2000 multi effects. All with the newer logo, and I have never had any problems. Lets not forget, they’re one of only a few companies still making affordable outboard gear including compressors, rack mountable line mixers etc. DBX seem to be the one of only a few other companies making affordable outboard gear, but don’t even offer an on/off switch. Recently I also bought the Behringer 18 channel audio interface and ADAT expander to increase the number of analog outputs from my MPC X. Not only do I have more outputs now, but it actually sounds slightly better too with more presence in the top end. As for how they treat their workers.. You can watch videos on the Music Tribe RUclips channel. They have talent shows, Christmas parties etc. The sort of stuff they couldn’t make up. It definitely doesn’t look like ‘slave labour’. That all said, I’m not a fan of them copying certain other gear like Arturia’s Keystep etc. Overall, I think the good far outweighs the bad.
"Uli making a world a lesser place with less innovation" is completely opposite of what is happening when clones are cheap. It means that in order to be successful synth company, one has to be original and innovate, rather than just ride on old product lines with little innovation (Roland Botique khm).
but it also suppresses the low end of the market. Meaning that Synth makers like Sequential and Moog can only turn a profit on mid tier and upper tier products. Their low end products have to compete with with a company that doesnt need to budget as much for R&D and spends much less on manufacturing. It also means that kitchen sink synth companies have to compete against a company that is not only cheaper than they can ever be, but which has access to more markets and retailers.
Moog does research makes the dfam, Berhinger rips it off and does the edge, moog pays for r&d and b does the spice. Companies are expected to spend r&d in hopes that they will make that money back in the 1-2 years it takes berhinger to reverse engineer and rip them off?
So Roland have to come up with totally new innovations, or it’s their fault. Whilst B have never had a single original idea. Gotcha 😂 Ever wonder why they’ve never done any knockoffs of Roland’s newer gear…
I live in China. I have done so for 17 years. I think what a lot of people don't realize about China is that the government is extremely critical and scrutinizing of foreign enterprises, especially those employing Chinese workers, operating in China. Additionally, what us westerners like to call "slave labor" can be super opinionated and anecdotal. "They don't even give the workers free coffee, man that's like... Totally slave labor!" Anyone can make a case about anything, then try to bring up a bunch of controversy to create their own drama. I won't argue that there aren't bad actors in China, but I will say, it's FAR more difficult to do these things, especially for foreign companies, than people seem to think. Then there's the issue of how western media likes to take a single occurrence of something, tie it to other non-related things, then call it a trend and create drama around it. It's great for making China look like it's run by the most evil people in the world. This narrative has been going so long that it's super easy for people to believe any horror story coming out of China because, "of course! China is evil!" The reality is, at least from my perspective of all the years I used to go and do training for different manufacturing companies, is that the vast majority of said companies are running them the same way we do in the west. To the VAST majority of Chinese workers, they view their job as a job, they do it, they make money, they feed their families, they laugh and joke with their coworkers, they have benefits that are mandated by government order, like the company has to pay 2/3rds of their mortgage, pay living stipends, pay their medical insurance, pay for time off (more than most Americans, at that), among various other expenditures that they're legally obligated to cover. All that aside, if one actually WENT to these manufacturing plants, they'd see that things are extremely normal, not some slave-labor camp like the media keeps pushing.
@@CaidicusProductions Interesting you just deflected my question rather than answering it, I wonder why that is? I'm not the sort of person to think of internet comments as "bangers" but evidently you are. Maybe you should do some introspection about that and consider that not everything is about clout on the internet. Sometimes you're just wrong and it has nothing to do with me wanting updoots from kind strangers
@@ennayanne Deflecting nothing. It isn't my issue if you lack the reading comprehension skills to recognize that my first comment was all the answer one needs. If you feel like you know best because you read about stuff on the internet, good for you. No one's going to change your mind, you're the boss, boss.
Firstly, I'd like to just dispel the cost argument - any musician will jump on a cost-effective deal if there is one to be had; more expensive doesn't necessarily mean better, though a lot of the time it usually means that that money does go to other features and better sound (again, not always). While the high-end market exists for those who can afford it, those people are not gatekeeping as far as wishing other people don't get gear; that's just silly. We're all fans of electronic music and want more of it out there. The alternative to people who don't have means is not that those people don't make music anyway; they just do it all in software. Behringer is among the cheapest, but there are other products on the cheaper end of the spectrum (some Arturia, Dreadbox, and Korg products come to mind). The cost thing is purely a business strategy - Behringer have a huge Chinese factory and are able to cut costs because they operate on scale. If Behringer focused on more of their original ideas, they wouldn't get as much hate, which I deem is honestly rightly deserved. Sure, they put clones of unavailable products out there, which does smack of unoriginality, but more egregious is ripping off Maths, which is a currently available product from a much smaller company. The point here is to skim their business of what is literally the most popular module in Eurorack, with the aim of diluting Make Noise to the point where they consider closing up shop. Behringer knows that they're big enough that this small company cannot afford to sue them on any long timeline, which substantiates Behringer as the bully that it is. Just some food for thought. The Corksniffer thing is super troubling - I mean, the dude had such a grudge he made a PROTOTYPE of it and then shot a slick video for it, for heaven's sake. Nowhere through that did anyone on his team stop to think, "hey, is this a good idea?" I've owned a few of their products in the past and they weren't great (an amp and an audio interface). People get good things out of their synths but detuning seems a perennial problem. Such is the risk you run with cheaper gear. It'd be fun to get their 303 for $100 though.
Hot topic. I mostly just use VSTs for writing and recording. I have no need for analogue, but want a little set up for jamming. If it weren't for Behringer, I probably wouldn't be buying any hardware.
We should not care, I don't care, because those brands do not care about the people who can't afford those brands. They do very much care about releasing good synths, but they also care a lot about maximizing their pricing. So they add stuf you don't seriously need or want to use, like effects or unusable sequencers. Stuff you don't use in the studio and even not live. Most people who buy Berhinger can't afford anything else anyway, but are potential customers for bigger brands when they make money or grow older. I have many synths and only a few Behringer, ms-1 and 2 Pro-1's, because these rare originals are old, way to old and as a sequential fanboy I had to have a Pro-1, might buy the Pro-800 as well. Some brands need to check their pricing, they are over the top. One might argue that 2500 for a prophet 5, 6, OB-6 desktop is reasonable, but 3799 for a OB-X8 desktop is insane, that's retarded and they should be ashamed. I seriously don't get it, wouldn't they sell more for cheaper prices and still make the same or even more money with it?
If you hold a patent you have X years (usually around 20, according to country) to make money before it expires. I find it hard to criticise any company charging as much as they can - they're in the business of making money/maximising profits after all. Some might have social pricing, but they're a small minority. I ran a business where I sold my labour in time packets - I charged what I could, playing the supply and demand game. That doesn't make me a gouger, it made me enough money to live on (barely) and you'd still have people trying to bargain the price down, because everyone wants to pay less. The synth market is just another market. The original company charges $$$$$$$$$$$$ because it costs a lot to have people spend years behind benches researching/developing - if someone wants the cachet of buying original manufacturer after the patents run out that's their problem - people still buy Rolls Royce when a Merc is engineered just as well/better - the market is big enough for both. And what if you can't afford the clone? Life just isn't fair.
Used to really hate Behringer. I owned one of their little 8 channel mixers. After 6 months the power supply died on me. Looked around online and a replacement cost more than the shitty mixer. Then a few weeks later same thing happened to my DJ friend with one of their DJ mixers. Also really hated the ADDA I bought from them back when I needed more inputs for my DAW. Over time I softened my opinion. Even thought about getting one of the Arp 2600 or 909 knockoffs. But this video changed my mind on that. Have to say, plenty of companies have done the same as Behringer in terms of undercutting the major brands. Peavey, Ibanez and Korg all got where they are by selling cheap gear to working musicians. With a little bit of 'borrowing' or being heavily influenced by more dominant brands. Yet they never garnered the hate Behringer gets. Maybe because they werent jerks about it?
Your video definitely helped me articulate how I feel about Beringer in my head. Not necessarily changing my mind just solidifying my thoughts I don’t really have a big issue with what they put out. The idea of morality in Capitalism to me is a joke has anyone ever actually looked at capitalism. The morality of capitalism is make money, and Behringer, for all intents and purposes, seems to help people who don’t make as much money. I mean I would give my left nut to own a bunch of Moog synthesizer‘s, but cancer already took my notes so I’m broke. I only own one piece of gear of theirs and I’m probably gonna sell it but there is other stuff I’d like to get. I do think Uli can definitely be in a hole, but if we stopped buying everything from made by companies that were run by a holes, we wouldn’t own a single thing, she is just more public and out in the open than most companies and Behringer is an easy target
I am sorry you have to deal with cancer, and I am happy to see that you are still around! I have lost too many, My dad 2014, my uncle 2015, to of my best friends 2021, 2023 and many more friends and family to cancer over the years. I think everyone born after the industrial revolution will die from some form of cancer seeing how that time period ushered in so many toxins and carcinogens to our everyday environment. Good luck fighting yours and if it is in remission, I'll have my fingers crossed for you hoping that it stays there!
but thats the whole problem. where is there such a huge market for clones? whats the point? sure for a time you get something similar to the sound you wanted in a package that looks like it, but they wont age as well as the originals, and nothing new is added to the industry. Meanwhile every company trying something new is doing it at huge prices like UDO synths. I would much rather see a company rival Behringer by providing affordable synths that can hit that classic sound of the synth they're inspired by, but add better interfaces, fx suites and modulation options the originals never had. Maybe they'll never sound 100% or as good as the things they were inspired by, but they could improve the potential of those synths in a way thats way easier on the pockets of the users.
@@rui5421 I don't know and I'm certainly no "cork sniffer" but I would feel embarrassed to show up on stage with a Behringer product. It's like one of those knockoff watches you buy from some guy in a trench coat who has a couple dozen of them hanging from the lining..."ah, but this Rodex keeps really good time and such a deal..."
you have a funny way of saying behringer and the outro music is too loud under your voice but other than that this was an excellent - and surprisingly impartial piece of work - really is a tough topic .. in other documentaries i heard the point being made that behringer copying old designs is fair enough but releasing clones of hardware which is currently being produced is very naughty instead.. i find that to be a very valid point as well. I still dont know where i stand on behringer as a whole because i certainly cannot afford 3k synthesisers and yet i am not sure if cloning the companies innovating 3k synthesisers so they eventually go out of business is the right way.. actually i do think it is despicable.. yea.. yes i do
Since i have little interest in older instruments I am not in Behringers demographic. I do take issue the comments at 33:22 professional musicians can earn a lot of money, and the ones I know talk about music not gear. When did people start calling anyone with more money than them rich? One question about Behringer that only time can answer is durability. Having said that the only thing you need to make quality music is talent. If you want to make money you also need hard work and luck.
this is a great assessment of the insanity around behringer...and the reality probably is, the community is the worst part about behringer. For everynone claiming behringer is an evil clone market, they ignore that it's the most profitable thing they've done. They tried original things like Juno-inspired (but not a clone) Deepmind, and everyone demanded a direct Juno clone or no dice. The funny thing about these industries where you raise up a figurehead for the entire company is that you get weird places where people want to demonize or excuse everything that they do. If we found out Bob Moog or Dave Smith were racists or abusers, people would defend their "art and contribution to the market" and forgive everything. Behringer on the otherhand has a noble goal on the surface, and is demonized for it. My guess is, everything is bit true, and a bit embellished. Uli is a flawed person, in a flawed company. We have to choose if this company's products are worth our time, and honestly the fact that all they do is make clones now is why I dont buy from them. Not because of some moral concept, but just because it's so uninteresting. With so many makers out there doing "inspired by" synths, I wish that behringer wasn't cloning 1 to 1, and instead did things like the deep mind where you can see the inspiration and the deviations that push the market forward.
Yep, Uli is obviously a narcissist, that's frankly what it takes sometimes in the business. He is obviously personally writing way more of the Behringer social media posts than he should. I really like the Behringer non-clones (I have two Neutrons).
Really enjoyed your video and you raised excellent, balanced points. My personal view is other than my Moog Mavis I can't afford Moogs (or other manufactures) more expensive synths, but I do want to own them, so if Behringer make a cheaper version I'm more than happy to buy it, I have the Crave and the Model D and I love them both, plus the Neutron which, in my view, is a wonderfully eccentric and original synth. I can't wait to get the Edge as it's less than half the price of the Moog DFAM. If I had more money would I buy the DFAM? Of course! But I don't... so I can't... so I won't 😅 Edit: Just in case anybody breaks down the price of the Model D, Crave, Neutron and the Mavis and sell them to get the DFAM, well at the time of buying them I didn't know about the DFAM - maybe that would be an option one day.
I bought a behringer ms1. I received it with a broken key so I repaired it by using super glue. Lately, another key broke so I had to repair it again. Also, a knob broke so I repaired it… Every other behringer instruments I own are pretty good in terms of quality but the ms1 is so low…
Sure thing. I work professionally as a sound engineer, doing live sound as well as studio recording, producing, etc. If there's more you need to know about me for your paper I can be reached by this email (cyberspaceoblivion@gmail.com)
I agree with @jackispax1633 and furthermore they totally fucked up Midas thinking they could sell shitty small footprint mixers solely on brand heritage.
When a company makes me angry - I hate on them and I don't care. When a device is cheap and decent - I buy it and I don't care. I don't care about feelings of big companies - if I can take it, they can too. Brand loyalty is stupid - they won't be loyal to you either. I feel no emotion or empathy to wealthy companies - they don't either. Being emotional about wealthy companies is brain dead. Be logical and know what you want.
I’ve owned Behringer gear over the years and every single piece of equipment I’ve ever owned worked perfectly never had any problems, mixing boards, speakers, compressors, digital delay units, and now synthesizers. There’s lots of affordable synthesizers on the market but Beringer always gets a bad wrap. Watch my video on expensive synthesizers.
Phone manufacturers always do something shady to increase profit, either sweat shop labor, OS truncate to make people buy the next phone generation and more, I don't see people with pitchforks going after them. Behringer is one of the few companies who have the balls to give people tools to make music at an affordable price while most of the rest wants to be the Apple of the synth world, so thank you Behringer to keep giving us a chance to make music with our thin wallets. In the end, its all about the music, what can you do with the instruments, rather than politics, cause if we go that path, not even the shirts we wear are made with "legit" practices, there is always a person in a shack somewhere in places like India underpaid doing the shoes we like. That being said, we need legitimacy in business, but there's no such thing once you pass a certain profit threshold, Behringer will always be the dark horse of the industry, "controversy" aside, they are amazing for giving us all these tools at affordable price, if was other company, would be pushing at least double the price on what they offer, that is how I see it at least.
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Actually I congratulate Behringer for making an affordable series of synthesizers. Give the people what they want. Great for the entry level synth player.
Exactly. Whoever thinks behringer should donate can do so with the money saved by buying behringer products. I wonder if it is the same company the guy in the video talks about, he mentioned berenger very often, maybe he is just mispronouncing it, maybe not.
And you see no problems with the swing or the Maths clone?
As someone who's inspired by Radiohead and in a power trio band, (I'm dead broke from pedals and guitars) Behringer synths are good enough for me especially since I use the model d in combination with playing guitar. I found this from playing guitars and I hope it applies to synths too, it doesn't matter what kind of instrument you have it's how you use it.
100%
With those expired patents, that is actually the inteded use of the patent system. You create something, patent it and then have the sole right to manufacture it, when your patent is about to expire you can extend the patent for a fee that rises with every extension. At the point when you decide to let the patent expire, your design become publicly available and people can do whatever with that design.
The patent system actually used to be a great device for continued innovation and sharing of knowledge, however today you have firms that specialize in writing the patents as vaguely as possible and companies extendeding patents almost indefinitely stifling innovation in multiple fields + all the patent trolls.
The only Behringer things I own are the recreations of Roland gear that the whole world has been BEGGING them to make for decades, but instead they make tiny, annoying emulations 😋 I bought the td-3 the moment it was available and felt absolutely nothing but joy lol
Yup. Not the biggest fan of cloning other companies stuff either, but roland asked for it. They had 30 goddamn years since these things became rare. Behringer did nothing wrong here.
The S-1 is dope
@@abbygregory4982They can also protect the IP much easier with software. Also, people have no issue with a NI keybed for £500 for midi, but gasp at Juno/Jup with thousands of sounds/models.
well, you could have had an xoxbox (2006) or DINsync RE303for years before that ... not sure why you give credit to Behringer for bringing the 303 to you... i even forgot the cyclone one.. not that expensive...
Yeah I hate Behringer as much as the next cork sniffing Moog snob.
But Roland has left a lot of money on the table by not revisiting their classic analog gear. Except to make little toy ACB things which were audibly not analog.
My Machinedrum was acting like it might be giving up the ghost last week and I really thought about the Behringer 909 as a substitute while the Machinedrum gets fixed.
Nicely balanced stuff. I wanted to hear an argument, not damning/praising - and you did that. I feel better informed. Thanks!
This was really well researched and I applaud you for illuminating what was for me just a cheap synth company.
ruclips.net/video/p5RSIWbZ6Vc/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/PyA7XnqdufI/видео.html
I really started laughing, when you say that "Poly-D" should be called "Para-D" (sounds like Parody).
yeah, I was like, IMAGINE this conversation in Beh office:
- Hey, we got new exciting synth. It's like Moog Model D, but it has more oscillators, and you can play 4 keys at a time.
- Wow, what's it gonna be called?
- PARA D...
- gET dUh FAK auTtA Muh oFfITSE
And others always say Poly-D sounds like Pauly D.
I hope you all dont plan on a stand up comedy career
Great video. I own a TD-3, I think cloning old gear that is no longer produced is great. That old tech SHOULD be cheap, it's old tech!
But they lost me as a consumer the moment they copied the Arturia Keystep. That just seemed low and unnecessary, and it's not even that much cheaper.
Yeah that was a low blow, especially considering they could have improved on itna changed the design enough to make it their own
Just wait until you find out that purchasing most, if not all electronics today, makes you a financial supporter of slavery, and even death in some cases. The cognitive dissonance may cripple you. Unless of course you don't actually care about that and find the copying of gear to be more egregious. 🙃
People are really weird with their selective ethical and or moral standards/principles. How can a person turn a blind eye to horrible things, but get all high and mighty about minor nothings in comparison? Frankly people like that never made sense to me. Humans are messed up.
That all said, I assume you already know this stuff since you watched the video.
@@EnervatedSociety well, people like to feel good about their products, even if the ethics don't hold up to the highest degree.
If all companies are as bad (I don't believe they are) then at least we want to have a positive connection to our gear when using it, and seeing what kind of people the designers and engineers are helps in some brands (Yves Usson, Tatsuya,...) others not so much. While all marketing can be deceptive in that sense, the association with creativity that the name Arturia conjures, because of the people there, is quite different from the big B. That can mean Arturia lie better than others -I for one don't think it's spin/an elaborate ruse/a false narrative/a dystopian digital simulation that there are sublime people working for Arturia, Dsi, Moog... - or it means that Uli is very honest/upfront about being a royal Farkwad. One thing you can't hide, is when you crippled inside.
(see also the wooden boy-who-would-be-a-real-man at facebook)
P.S. re: ethics; if a company uses domestic labour to assemble the products, and some don't, you cannot say that all companies are equally bad, that's a fallacy. And Im not even talking about Bastl, Vermona or Erica.
I agree with you that "old tech" should be cheap. I think that is where most analog synth producers screw up. Instead of reducing the price of their products over time, so more people can afford to buy them, they keep the prices artificially high because they think keeping it niche will make them more money. In some cases this works, but in most cases, they could make much more money if they bring prices down. Look at TV manufacturing as an example.
yup,-
I've waffled back and forth on buying a new Behringer synth a half dozen times in just the 42 minutes of this video!! While I own a few expensive synths (Prophet-6 & UDO-6), I am very tempted by some of Beringer's semi-clones. Great video essay... hits the nail on the head!
you're part of the problem
Very good video! I have tried to be objective about B, and have come up against the same issues you have articulated here! I have owned some B synths, and I always end up selling them. They always sound pretty good, and consistently, they never inspire. For me personally, and ultimately, this comes down to a personal choice, what feels right for me, and my life, there is no place for B in my studio. It means I have fewer synths, and that I make less purchases, but am much happier with the synths that I do have. I don’t begrudge anyone for their choices in this regard, and feel strongly about my position on Uli. Thanks for a really top notch video!
Thank you for the kind words!
Uli donated synths after a year of Benn Jordan shaming them for promising to donate and not doing anything. It appears that Uli/Behringer originally pretended to have a plan to donate, but was likely lying. It was damage control for their bad reputation. Now they are back at it again with Loopop, apparently lying and blacklisting him. This, in addition to outright copy of current market synths. There’s no way I will buy a Behringer product.
Blah blah blah. Bennnn Jordan was pissed off cause he wanted free synths thats all. Behringer doesnt need you byr
@@pocojoyo pfp and name to post ratio on point
@@arisumego What I said is 100 % accurate.
@@pocojoyo Well, he Behringer did say he gave free synths, but then didnt...
So Benn Jordan was right to call him out on that. 😉
@@jellevandenberge2494 Behringer never said at the time that they had given synths. They said that those were their plans. But it was during the pandemic, remember ???...But Bennnnn Jordan was so eager to bash Behringer cause they did not consider him for the donation... Bennnn Jordan is a free synth hoarder
When Korg released a full sized keys version of MS20 - they added $1000 to the price tag. Literally nothing else was changed in the synth itself. They saw people paying "vintage tax" for the original and just increased the price 3 times for no other reason.
This is why I don't get complaints about Behringer exclusively, it's like a wildfire any time the company is mentioned, while other manufacturers do equally bad, if not outright anti-consumer, things too - but you won't see whole threads dedicated to how awful and predatory Korg is.
😂 nah fuck that, they literally copied arturias mini piano = same price
@@JDozza Swing $119 original price, Keystep - $229. Not quite.
Then again I don't see anyone complaining about cheaper Pultec EQ or Neve compressor clones where price difference is often upwards of $1000. And they literally copy circuitry, not just looks. As long as it's not Behringer, am I right?
I think people don't like them because they supposedly try to silence criticism and take down youtube videos critical of them
It's a great analysis overall. I have however one important reservation over the whole "history" of analog synth revival in the introduction.
After a long list of synth companies joining the game, you indeed said "then Arturia jumped in", as if they were late to the game. This is really taking things in reverse ! Arturia actually was the very company who spearheaded the analog synth revival, when nobody in the industry seemed to give a dam yet. They did so first by initiating their line of VSTs recreating the old analog sound digitally: mind you, Arturia, who is all the buzz right now, is a 20+-year old company, and they were selling such digital recreations early in the first decade of the 2000s. Then, when faced with a growing international interest for their VSTs, they gradually extended their line of product to hardware synth. Their very first hardware instrument was put on the market in 2009, making them the very first consumer company to gamble on an analog revival. By comparison, Korg's MS-20 Mini was introduced to the market only in 2013.
So the story should really be something like "There was this initially small company located in the French Alps who sold digital recreations of analog synths. Faced with huge interest in their products, they launched their first hardware synth in 2009 which was a success too, several big companies then noticed the public's interest and entered the race to recreate their old masterpieces, beginning by Korg and the MS20".
Shot out to Arturia ❤
Arturia's Origin in 2009 isn't analog... Thats "just a VA". Microbrute came in 2012. i say novation, first with the Bassstation 1 in 1993 :) No disrespect to Arturia though.. and the Bass Station 2 (2013) is still a great buy today ! :)
Yep, Arturia started with a clone to Rebirth/Reason Java based. That was a fail.
Access & Clavia started the VA wave and Roland followed with the JP80xx.
The following years shaped the market to allow hardware return.
IMHO, I honestly feel they would be more successful if they didn’t make their products direct clones, but rather insted just used similar technology, to made their products completely original, but inspired by other classic/vintage/successful products. For example, the ‘Deepmind 6/12’ is not a direct clone of a vintage analogue polysynth, but rather has a similar sound and technology of synths that are three to five times the price. Few companies that make synths that are inspired by something else, receive the same type of hate.
That's a really good point and admittedly a massive oversight on my part. I'll be addressing this oversight in a follow up video. Thanks for pointing this out!
I love my DeepMind 6 and Odyssey. Behringer made analog accessable for my inflation destroyed income
You’re just trying to rationalize your support for a bad acting company. It’s not the end of the world, but just don’t use the excuse of “synths are too expensive!”
You can get in Alpha Juno for $300-400 even today, or a AJ2 for a little more. Not only are they cheaper than a new DeepMind, they are a better synth in basically every way imaginable.
I don’t know what is comparable to an Odyssey that is affordable (Roland SE-02?), but I’m sure there is something that can do the job better for approximately the same price?
Again, I’m not going to condemn you for choice. Just … don’t give some phony justification for it. You bought into the hype and wanted a shiny, new product; and you either didn’t think about the ethical issues Behringer presents, or didn’t care? It’s ok. S’free country.
@@79Glitch phony justification? Nah is just a simple opinion that I am simply entitled to.
You can rationalize your purchases all you want but it's phony to act like there is some absolute and be ethically above them.
You wanna get to the real root of the issue?
Guess what. Your opinion is subjective and I am very sedimental so they are worth more to me. I've spent 100s of great hours exploring the odyssey for instance. The closest type costs double, and I have actually tried them both and the behringer is far superior in every way compared to the korg version. Why would korg add a sequencer? Keep it closer to original and force people to buy more hardware.
The only thing better about the korg was the sweet case.
You are acting like it's so important that you have to put me down for it. I find that weak and pointless.
You wanna argue it? I can go all day.
I can give you a hundred reasons but here is the main one.
You can buy the most expensive besteststs synth in world and still suck at music.
It's phony to act like it matters lol.
@@79Glitch 2 years later and I still don't regret the purchases btw. I will never have enough gear but I can go pretty far with what I have.
It ain't the gear that counts, it's how well you can use it.
A real musician can make music on anything and even enjoy it.
Should we discuss the ethics of people forcing ther opinions on others?
I just made a comment you didn't agree with.
I hope you can agree this is ridiculous and we could be having a constructive discussion. All you are saying is
BEHRINGER BAD BEHRINGER BAD ,YOUR OPINION IS INCORRECT! I DECIDE HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR INSTRUMENTS
YOU ARE WRONG YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT, I KNOW MORE THAN YOU. IM BETTER THAN YOU.
that'd what I see when I read your comment that is only an opinion btw lol
I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I am telling you it's wrong to think you have the right to tell me how I should feel about things I cherish.
@@dddayesq5061 Yes!
Preach it!
@@79Glitchthere is no ethical consumption under capitalism. I buy and enjoy behringer gear and I don't feel an ounce of guilt, nor should anyone. I'd sooner go vegan than stop buying affordable synths from behringer.
as someone who has clompletely ignored both narratives for years and not know anything one way or another or held an opinion i found this journey completely rivetting... cheers!
Try standing for something some day 🙂
ruclips.net/video/p5RSIWbZ6Vc/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/PyA7XnqdufI/видео.html
It would be better to stand for social and economic improvements in something, than to defend the right to overprice stuff.
@@made.online2149 Standing for one vs another Manufacturer - No thanks!
Behringer had beef with Mackie in the late 90s. They made a couple of mixers that looked EXACTLY like Mackie's 4 bus and 8 bus mixers. Behringer had to redesign all of their mixers because of it. I could be wrong but I think Mackie pulled their mixers from the Sam Ash chain around the US because that store somehow distributed Behringer. Don't remember exactly, but that beef was serious
They copy the mixer names as well. The Mackie 1604 has 16 channels, each with a preamp, but Behringer has offered several '1604' mixers in different lineups over the years, with varying numbers of preamps, never as much as the Mackie. Very cringe and there are other examples of this.
@@nanocyde_artist true. They eventually came out with those ssame mixers but in white
Thank you for the content, well thought out.
As someone who owns ALL of the Behringer clones, except the MS-1 (which I WILL be buying the MK2 of)...
My problems with Behringer (some of these you detailed):
1. Behringer clones (counterfeits) in production gear which is just going too far IMO. This isn't simply a patent expiration issue. The cloning of the Arturia Keystep and Moog M32/DFAM/Sub triad just pisses me off.
2. All the cost R&D is footed by those they clone
3. All the cost of market viability is footed by those they clone
4. Behringer does everything it can to not pay for others' IP
5. The whole charity thing. This is NOT a plus. Uli tried to pull a fast one but rightly got called out. It's misguided and gross that you are now simply giving them accolades. They got caught.
6. Behringer's PR is disgusting
7. Behringer is almost entirely an off-shore company that doesn't give a shit about anything but their bottom line
8. Behringer IS breaking laws, but it's too costly to litigate. A perfect example of this is that while Auratone won that lawsuit to stop Behringer from simply taking their name to sell their shitty speakers, the lawsuit only covered American markets. Auratone would have to sue again to stop Behringer from stealing their name globally. And even when they aren't outright breaking laws, they are skirting them by making nominal changes a la moving some pots around. It's still blatant. They copied the shit out of DevilFish for example, someone else's industrial design. didn't pay a dime. It's gross. Behringer has more lawyers than R&D and that's why they don't get sued.
9. Most importantly - Behringer COULD BE innovating by releasing truly new gear (a la Deepmind and Neutron) rather than, by numbers, simply cloning at lower prices
Finally, the Akai Timber Wolf is actually pretty cool. Yes, the filter is dreadful and there are limited waveshaping controls, but the raw tones are great and the multi-outs brings a lot of processing abilities. I will never sell mine.
Finally part 2. The Roland ACB stuffs is really good. Yes, the GAIA sounds like crap as do all their last-gen stuffs, but the Aira and Boutique ACB stuffs sound great. The System-8 is an absolute beast. It's pretty much an inevitability that analogue gear will be relegated to the elitists in the future, that everything will be digital as costs of analogue go up and as sound quality of digital emulation goes up. Roland is doing a good job of pushing the technology even though its guilty of shameless repackaging and misguided name recycling.
Finally part 3. Moog, Dave Smith, Arturia, Korg, Doepfer, Eowave, MeeBlip, etc all producing excellent analogue gear, much of it entirely affordable.
Finally part 4. I own a Poly-D. I don't mind that they called it Poly even when it's only paraphonic because they aren't the only ones to do that. I DO mind that the distortion sounds dreadful and it does NOT sound like a "poly" Model-D.
Finally part 5. I absolutely must disagree that the K2's build quality is as good as Korg MS-20: The Behringer's pots are woefully wobbly
and the "wood side paneling" is just plain bad quality. But yes, sound-wise Behringer did good here.
Absolute finally. My opinion is that you are misrepresenting the lengths that Behringer goes through to disrespect IP vs. all the other companies. There is no other synth-centric company that comes even close to the disrespect that Behringer routinely displays.
And bro, this has very little to do with elitism in terms of cost or brand. That's a weak argument. There's such a limited number of people who's overriding concern is elitism. Like I've detailed, many companies produce affordable quality gear, even the high-end ones. MOST of their truly expensive gear is that expensive because it's out of production. There isn't a parallel with any other budget synth producer. It is what it is.
You appear not to know what the meaning of counterfeit means, but in a large case of irony, you displayed counterfeited intelligence.
Didn't the whole charity controversy turn out to be quite an embarrassement for Benn Jordan whose allegations against Behringer regarding this matter were unjustified?
And yes, they are making copies - some of them blatant, like the Swing, some of them easily justifiable, like the Model D. There is no need to condemn the company as a whole for making copies when there are good and bad ones. We can decide on what (not) to buy and show them what we are (not) willing to support through their sales figures.
@@LousyFacelift I don’t think that’s what happened. Behringer made public assertions about what it was going to do for PR but didn’t follow through. At all. As I understand it, it wouldn’t have happened if Benn hadn’t called them out. I could be wrong. As to their copy to innovation (new) model ratio, my opinion is that they rest far too heavily on the copying end. I absolutely agree that there’s no shame in making copies of out of production gear (or, I should say, old gear that’s long past trademark/patent protection), so Model-D, TD-3,K,MS-1,etc all good. It’s just the copying of new, in-production gear that irks me (and the ratio). Bear in mind that the whole Peter Kirn thing centered on Behringer flagrantly ripping of the Ebtech Swizz-CT, in-production gear from a small company that doesn’t have the means to compete or litigate. Copying the big guys is one thing, but doing it to more boutique, family operators vendors in kind of shit. And then Behringer doubled down with the wave of legal threats to multiple people who simply commented on it on a bulletin board. Brutal. That’s where I really question the integrity of that company, where they clearly have more lawyers than music lovers. Agreed we can all pick and choose, but when a company crosses a line too far, I personally just won’t support them and I’ll speak up. Having said that, I don’t think they are the anti-Christ and I think they actually have a lot of potential to start truly innovating after they exhaust their cloning options. Like, the XR18 is absolutely fantastic, which I bought over the Tascam and Zoom n the merits of the device itself, irrespective of price. I so want them to do more of that, less of the clones. To be frank, I do not think that this recent trend of cheap clones is good for anyone, as good as some of them are. People are buying them up often just because they think they are saving money relative to the used OG’s, but they are often buying stuffs that isn’t really suited to them artistically. Like, the TD-3 isn’t even remotely a productive device and putting that money into something more suitable would have been better for them (not to mention behringer raided all the schematics from open source materials).
@@alexwestconsulting I came across a reply to Benn somewhere in the comment section of his video shortly after it was posted, making it clear he was missing important info on the current status of this whole campaign back then. That Uli had already taken measures to organise the distribution of synths to charity, that he was in charge of some of the process and everything was really quite legit. And wasn't there even an apology posted by Benn, soon afterwards?
I totally enjoy the TD-3 (even more than the TD-3 MO btw.). There is absolutely nothing to complain about there, if you ask me. If people make the wrong choices that's their problem but they are still much better off paying only 100,- €/$ instead of 3000,- €/$ for this type of mistake...
Thanks for the comment. Really thoughtful response. You raise a lot of good points which I'll need to spend some time mulling over
One of the big problems with the Behringer synths is their overall lack of support, and features either not working correctly or being broken with updates which never get resolved. For instance, on their SH-101 clone, there's a load of issues with synchronisation and a known issue with the glide knob missing part of it's range. With a lot of these synths, the obvious functionality works and is close enough, but as soon as you dig deeper you find problems which you have to work around, and that you never got with the originals. It's frustrating as these things should be relatively straight forward fixes, but it looks like they do a small amount of active support for their products before concentrating on releasing something else.
They did fix the envelopes in their Mono/Poly and in the Pro800 and there seems to be an MS-1 MK ll on its way. I don't think not fixing the issues of one thing and just releasing an MK ll version is cool but we have already seen that from many companies like the Dave Smith Proohet 8 with its pots issue for example, which is also a lot more expensive...
I don't know of any other examples for missing support or serious let downs. Surely my RD-8 MK l isn't perfect, the most annoying part is the level of the rimshot that's way too loud but still a great deal and completely usable.
Hi Robert - That's an excellent summary of the events caused by and surrounding Behringer, all in one place. Everyone should wwatch this (and your other B video) if they want an informed and unbiased account of events 👍
Thanks Ian!
If you can afford the original, buy it. For the rest of us, buy the copy. YMMV.
people love the drama, love to take sides... the Internet.
I once released a song in the key of G imagine my horror at finding out thousands of artists have since cloned the key of G that I worked so hard on and not even crediting me tsk tsk🤣🤣
I like Behringer. I have a bunch of effects from my Bass playing days. But, Behringer has broken open the flood gates and now everybody is coming up with their own affordable stuff. I'm getting into the Roland S 1 Tweak along w/ the Neutron, Crave, Swing 32, and K2 from Behringer.
I've got tons of effects circuits in my old Tab electronics book library. The circuits are old, and you could probably get Chat GPT to program a microcontroller (like the ESP 32) to create any type of synth you desire. So, it's kinda easy to get around the tech IP nowadays. Also, PC synths available from online are a fantastic resource. As are the other offerings (Patches! Make me sound like Vangelis. :P ).
Competition is good for consumers like myself. Do you think I complain of some of the great low priced gear out there because I liked the original, but can only swing the clone? These are legit good pieces of gear on their own right. If I can get the sound I want out of it, it's all good even if it's a knock off.
Here is Jarvishere's version:>
Here is some initial code that could be used to implement the functionality of a classic Moog synthesizer on an ESP32 microcontroller:
// Pin definitions
#define OSC1_PIN 5
#define OSC2_PIN 16
#define FILTER_CV_PIN 4
#define ADSR_PIN 0
// Oscillator 1 variables
float osc1Freq = 440;
float osc1Waveform = SINE;
// Oscillator 2 variables
float osc2Freq = 880;
float osc2Waveform = SAWTOOTH;
// Filter variables
float filterCutoff = 1000;
float filterResonance = 5;
// ADSR envelope variables
float attackTime = 0.1;
float decayTime = 0.2;
float sustainLevel = 0.5;
float releaseTime = 1;
void setup() {
// Initialize oscillator pins as outputs
pinMode(OSC1_PIN, OUTPUT);
pinMode(OSC2_PIN, OUTPUT);
// Initialize filter CV pin as output
pinMode(FILTER_CV_PIN, OUTPUT);
// Initialize envelope pin as input
pinMode(ADSR_PIN, INPUT);
}
void loop() {
// Generate oscillator 1 waveform
float osc1Value = generateWaveform(osc1Waveform, osc1Freq);
// Generate oscillator 2 waveform
float osc2Value = generateWaveform(osc2Waveform, osc2Freq);
// Combine and filter oscillators
float filterInput = osc1Value + osc2Value;
float filteredValue = filter(filterInput, filterCutoff, filterResonance);
// Shape output with ADSR envelope
float output = adsrEnvelope(filteredValue, attackTime, decayTime,
sustainLevel, releaseTime);
// Output to pins
analogWrite(OSC1_PIN, osc1Value);
analogWrite(OSC2_PIN, osc2Value);
analogWrite(FILTER_CV_PIN, filterCutoff);
analogWrite(outputPin, output);
}
// Functions to generate waveforms, filter, and apply ADSR
This covers the basic signal flow and control possibilities of a classic Moog. Let me know if any part needs more explanation or expansion to fully emulate the analog synth on an ESP32!
some of the people who singled out the employment conditions in china for criticism probably wrote their remarks on a laptop or ipad. it's a tricky one, this- I remember the start, bits of their gear turning up at work (a big music broadcaster) where we used the ultracurve's memories to save loads of set-up time, for example, but at the same time being a bit put off by things like the mackie, boss & EHX "knockoffs", which were blatant. of course it was intentional- the design cues & functionality of the actual products was copied so that it would sell. he made a quick pile, perhaps setting some aside for lawyers- who knows? but for the most part the equipment was reasonably well-made & did what it was expected to do *at that price point*. had my band been gigging every week, say, I'd've bought a mackie desk, but we made do with a £300 behringer because it was fine. I still have it here, & it still worked, after changing some capacitors in the PSU. hardware's fine. more recently, & more out of curiosity than anything, I bought a pair of the copy 960 sequencers; I am a bit of a collector of analogue sequencers, but the current price of original units puts them out of the reach of my GAS. the build quality is reasonable again, & they do what they're supposed to. but right after that impulse buy, I got wind of the kirn story.
TL;DR- he's a bit of a goal-mouth poacher who's lately dropping back into midfield & making the odd play from further back (I'm thinking of some of the original designs he's launched, the deepmind & so on), but he's been involved in some questionable off-the-ball incidents, & 'corksniffer' earned him a straight red here.
There’s a difference between using a China made laptop because you have no other options, and willfully employing foreign slave labor for capitalist corporate gains. One case involves a choice. The other doesn’t.
9:10
These competitors can stop coping over competition. Yes. That’s how competition works. Now Behringer has taken too far in individual instances and there is a reason why they have settlements that forced them to change but the general practice is just called competition. Unless you believe in monopolies
ANNNNND when other companies don't like competition... they sue. Any of these companies could have done the exact same thing over the last 10 years. But they didn't.
it's not the competition that bothers people. Peavey, Ibanez and others made a name for themselves selling cheap gear. It't the shitty way Behringer tries to suppress negative opinions of them.
Behringer is purposely coming as close as possible to infringing on the IP and trade dress of their competitors without (they claim) breaking the law. This would usually be considered an anti-competitive business practice. In my view, flooding the market with low profit margin knockoffs isn’t a tactic to make money. It’s a tactic to harm your competitors and capture their market share. The goal of a business model like Behringer’s is to form a monopoly.
@@plateoshrimp9685 no... because they're building synths no one else is making... how does that harm their competitors? Where's the Korg Mono/poly that they're now losing millions of dollars on LOL. (also, your above examples just aren't true. There's plenty of things that you just can't copyright that millions of companies make money off of. The bicycle seat is a good example. Can't copyright it, yet dozens and dozens of companies make them.. and they all make money doing so).
I agree with you 100% we should normalize uncertainty ❤
Uncertainty is so good 💯💯🔥🔥
💯
Oh man, I am gonna have to go ahead and average out my ignorance a lot harder to keep up with this sorta high brained shit.
@@funkbungus137 That was beautifully put. You have the makings of a poet. Never sell yourself short. Etc. et al. ad nauseum.
I've picked up a few Behringer synths because I am new to the synth world and it's a cost effective way to get into it. I'm not fond of Plug-ins (VST instruments), although I do like effect plugins (reverbs, delays, etc.).
The Behringer synths enable me to explore, learn and use instruments that I would have never been able to afford otherwise.
It's opened up my world of music production beyond what I could have ever imagined.
In addition it's inspired me to learn more about the original brands that Behringer has cloned, as well as the history of synthesizers in general.
I believe it's a win win for all.
At the end of the day I'm using tools that I'm able to get my hands on. Knowing what I know now, if I were into synthesizers a few years back (when one could get originals at a cheaper used price) then I would own a CS-80, Jupiter 8, an 808 and a Trident (Not even sure if I could afford those synths when they were at their lowest used price anyways). Regardless, you get the idea.
As of now musicians are lucky to have some access to analog synthesizers without having to break the bank. There's no shortage of tools that inspire and I'll happily look at all options out there. With that said, I have zero problem picking up used Behringer synths as well! Even better!
For me, it's the Kirn thing that lands Behringer into the "no support" category. The fact that Uli didn't make a proper apology, and even deleted his apology, tells me it was all PR, and he didn't care nor feel sincere about it. In other words, Uli sided with whoever made and approve the commercial. Otherwise, we'd have a different type of apology. And it wouldn't be deleted/retracted for whatever reason.
The corksniffer video was pretty funny and honestly cathartic for those around the snobbery for many years. People also miss that Kirn around this whole time period was making money endorsing and producing boutique gear though in the background. So he was using his influential platform to reduce his competition (cost cutting, high quality firms like Behringer) but under the guise of an unbiased information resource. It’s really more about two companies with influence attempting to gain leverage against the other than poor little journal being attacked.
Copying the Keystep got them a lot more flak than the Kirn stuff.
@@sibbyeskiestill pretty small time behaviour. Also, boutique gear isn't really the market Behringer is operating in. If I had the money to drop on boutique gear I wouldn't be doing it with either Kirn's stuff or Behringer.
The crossroads at the end of this essay reminded me of Robert prising “ If your mind is truly, profoundly stuck, then it might be much better off than when it was loaded with ideas.”
persig oops
Great video, probably one of the few videos longer than 10 minutes I've ever watched on RUclips that wasn't a music performance. Between behringer and Roland's boutique series I've basically been able to rebuild my modest collection of studio equipment I had in the early 2000s that I had to sell (and a few others I thought I'd never actually own) that I simply would not pay current prices on. They might not be exactly the same but I don't care, they're wee boxes that make noises. I've seen people argue about the td3 missing the "top 10% of squelch" really??? Is anyone on a dancefloor going to down tools because "ooh thats not quite hitting the top 10% of squelch, that must be a behringer and not a Roland" fucking behave man.
The big comment from the guy at the start is right on the money, every company is at it so you either live like a hobo in the forest or participate.
I enjoy all your little turns of phrase. Now I must go use my mom's BritBox subscription…
"every company is at it so you either live like a hobo in the forest or participate."
only if you're an extremist.
yes, the modern world is complex, but it doesn't take much to make choices.
ruclips.net/video/ODWWnTAqcsg/видео.html
TD3 MO gets there, if you need that extra bit of squelch. Feels like slapping Robin Whittle, though.
The Behringer gear from the 90’s of which I owned a few bits of outboard was not great, fairly poor build quality and a fair amount of hiss, I have to say that Behringer are now a more superior company. If you can afford the originals do it, if you want a copy then buy one, there are no rules to buying good sounding kit. My studio has high end Sequentials and Moogs but also an RD8, DM12 and a couple of TD3’s and I mix on the superb X32 rack straight to MacBook. It all sounds great together and the build quality is really pretty good with the Behringer gear compared to the high-ticket price gear. Keep rocking it Behringer, we need a few disrupters in the market place to keep things progressing forward for us synth musicians
I have no problems at all with a company in the 2010’s cloning 70’s and 80’s synths. My only qualms were with the “copies” of recent products that are still being produced by the original manufacturer (yes I’m thinking of Moog). I bought the originals despite B’s alternatives and I don’t regret it.
The fact that Moog haven’t made legal moves against them makes me wonder if there might be an agreement that we aren’t aware of. Who knows?
I agree. At least with a Moog. You know it will hold it's value, and it will last.
Listened to the whole upload whilst i was cooking this evening. Interesting breakdown of things, thanks for taking the time for this, even with 5 re-writes of the ending!
Some songs are like that too right?
Good job 🤜
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! Yeah, music can definitely also be a bit like that too.
Nice use of the M8 btw, just having a look at some of your music, really cool stuff! I was always fascinated by that device but am too committed personally to my daw workflow
@@RobertOBlivion thank you Robert, that's very kind! I can understand driving with what you know, I have a few devices now and know none of them inside out like I should do! Hoping with more time (and less GAS) I'll get to where I wanna be!
Thanks for leaving comment on my track to dude, nice one!
Behringer model D - I can play it on stinking pub gigs, wall to wall writhing drunks and not care - it's one of the cheapest instruments on the stage - sounds 10/10😃
Its so small you can also slap the first pretentious drunkard at the bar in the face with it once they start throwing the behringer clone war story at you. I have one too and love it.
Nice vid man good job! Really comprehensive, definitely resonate with a lot of what you had to say
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
The Yamaha reface synths are amazing.
I started with a MinilogueXD last year(love it) Picked up a Drumbrute Impact 5 months ago(love it) got the TD-3-MO 2 months ago and its my favorite to play. I never dug into the drama but knew it was there to a degree.
Opinion pre-watch: Behrenger's biggest flaw is their absolute garbage support. Their QA sucks too, but if you could get your stuff fixed under warranty it would mitigate that somewhat. Unfortunately it is damn near impossible to even register a device under warranty unless you do it the moment you take it out of the box... which most folks don't do because (obviously) people typically order online and want to make sure they want to keep it; once you register it, good luck with a return.
it took some time to get the "anna Log Synth" joke :D.
7 Subs? this is really great content and editing.
Thank you :)
Whew, this is high quality content, Robert 👍 I suppose I'll have to watch this video at least one more time.
I used to use Behringer gear since the olden days of the LX1/X V-Amp in the mid-noughties. But as time passed, I wouldn't buy a Behringer Swing MIDI controller nowadays having become a loyal Arturia customer. On the other hand, I'm happy with my DeepMind and Neutron (original products) as well as my Pro-1, Pro-800 and Cat synths (reissues of vintage analog machines).
Thanks for your deep research and the valuable insights provided in this video.
Thank you for the kind words :)
As a company, if I were accused of shit like this and there was public support, and if I thought they were wrong, I would, as CEO, 100% debate it in good faith. The fact that that has not occurred is a pretty big sign that this has been salvaged by them to be, AT BEST, vague and unsure.
They are definitely bad, and likely for all things mentioned. Defending them "because capitalism" is not a good defense, it's the moderate boomer cynical rationalization that allows one do reprehensible bullshit.
This being said, you've brought up several points that don't deal with their ethics or morality that are notable.
Also, idgaf who represents them, they are the same company. Abstracting is diffusing through obfuscation, and that's also bullshit. If they do bad shit, they are a bad company. Psh, blaming the marketing company. That's bullshit if I've ever seen it. Don't insult our intelligence, Behringer.
Aside from questionable corporate behavior, what has Behringer done with analog synths that hasn’t been done with guitar pedals? Almost all “boutique” distortion pedals are a Tube Screamer with an extra knob.
From that framing I'd say the main difference is market share and price focus. Most boutique pedals are pretty expensive and market themselves on artisan construction quality. Behringer's focus is keeping things cheap and affordable and everywhere, whereas boutique pedals tend to be more limited production runs with an emphasis on quality, exclusivity and a higher price. People tend to assume something that's more expensive is more valuable, so that narrative is very useful within that space
@@RobertOBlivion I’m talking more like the designs. Which given your point, I think Behringer comes out on top as far as ethics goes. Make no mistake, those boutique makers have taken apart, studied, and rebuilt the same 3 circuits for decades. But boutique pedal makers have this attitude around them like everything they make is original or something. But it’s usually a Boss pedal with a different EQ.
the thing is they barely even bother putting the extra knob. they could do modern versions of the synths; they do a 1:1 copy and plonk a usb port and call it a day. (no that's not easy but if you spend ressource reverse engineering a synth might as well add a few modern comodities like a few extra digital LFOs).
@@valdir7426 plenty of pedal companies do that too. Would you rather pay $3K for a basic overdrive pedal, or like $150 for a copy? If you’re talking about MODERN copies like the stupid Keystep copy, I’m with you. That’s basically wrong in my opinion. But making a Model D when almost none of us will ever buy the original and quite frankly the original is overpriced, I think they’re doing the world a service.
@@koalemos1679 I am talking about modern copies; they've done that with every successeful eurorack module and that's really shitty; specially when these modules were originally designed by small boutique manufacturers who absolutely can't compete.
I agree with your skeptical approach and uncertain stance. While it would admittedly be reasonable to guess, based on currently available evidence, that Behringer is "probably" in the wrong on a few of these issues, for the moment we're forced to presume innocence.
I know of one case where a Behringer copy of a design (and use of a colour scheme / control layout / lettering), where an enhanced version of this design is still in production by the original company, caused a lot of hurt and financial damage to the employees of the original company. This company simply doesn't have the financial resources to fight Behringer in court, and has to just let it go. There is a real cost to other companies, and their employees, by Behringer's actions. When your cheap Behringer clone synth/pedal/device is broken and ready for landfill in a handful of years - as it won't make sense financially to repair it - how will you feel about it? Myself, I'll never spend any money with Behringer because of their 'ethics'.
Generally speaking, everything has both light and dark. Businesses and manufacturers are no exception. They have marketing departments that usually do their best to "play up" the light and try their best to sweep the dark stuff under a rug. I don't know for certain what dark secrets any musical instrument developers/manufacturers hold, but what I do know is that the demo videos I've watched from Behringer for some of their soon to be released ("soon" at the time of this writing) micro synths (especially the Pro VS Mini) absolutely brought joy to my heart. The sound of it ❤ I just can't wait to get my hands on it and play.
" They have marketing departments that usually do their best to "play up" the light and try their best to sweep the dark stuff under a rug."
Small synth makers don't have "marketing departments". There is more choice in the world than B or A(rturia).
As an older guy who grew up looking at and not being able to afford the originals i love the clone and nostalgia thing. Surprised how big the market for these seems to be though. OK the Roland machines, even the modular, the MS20 but all those more obscure vintage synths like a string machine, syncussion, Toro ?, CR78 - i would have assumed there is a very very small market for those.
The other side of this coin is that I'm genuinely at a loss when trying to find serious artists and producers who use these niche synth builds in their tracks or sets though. It seems to me a lot of these more obscure units are aimed at what I call the 'noodle market' - ie. people who really just enjoy tinkering with synths and sound design, and not so much in composition or music production.
Yup.
I'm 61, and bought my first synth used for $400.00. This was 1981, and it was all I could afford. I was happy until a friend brought his Korg MS-20 (10?) over...that thing sounded great! I would have killed to be able to own one, or a Minimoog, or a an Arp 2600...all that stuff was out of reach for me. Then things moved on and nobody wanted them anymore. I ended up doing the Ensoniq sampling workstation thing for years, and then on to the computer. I never did get to own or use any of those old dream synths.
Behringer changed everything for me. And while I don't crank out the new DAWless tunes as often as I used to on the 'puter, I'm immensely enjoying my time exploring the classic designs. Finally, I've come full circle. And I'm SO grateful to have finally scratched that old itch!
BTW...I sold that first synth I bought in 1981 last year for $3500.00. Turns out it was very rare! 😮
Fun times.
@@mikemeengs5720
Aww, come on - what was the old synth then and why didn't you keep it?
Syncussion was a huge part of AFX's early sound, so demand for that makes sense.
@@LousyFacelift Because it sounded like crap! EML Synkey model 2001...with the punch card reader.
I'm not a synth nerd, but when I am a musician and composer. When I was about 12 I convinced my parents to buy me my first pair of "real" headphones. My 12 year old self did some online browsing and came across Behringer, the way the headphones were marketted, they seemed so premium, granted I was only 12 but still, I was looking at all the data like the frequency response and stuff (that's when I learned about frequency response) and it all seemed so impressive, coupled with the premium looking product photos. So my mum ordered them for me, and when I received them, such disappointment... They felt like they were made of the lowest grade, lightest, crappy plastic. The earpad foam was the worst I've probably ever felt even to this day. The earpad covers felt like they were made of black bin bag plastic. I felt so let down. Oh and the actual audio quality was very mediocre, I wasn't at all impressed. They sounded worse than the 15 euro pair of headphones my dad bought me on a whim when I had to stay in hospital for 2 weeks and didn't have anything to listen to music with a year or so later.
That was my only experience ever buying a Behringer product, and honestly it turned me off them for good. But then again I don't have any experience with their more "high end" products so...
But buying that computer is a-ok from china....but damn behringer!
WHAT?
I think there's also that gatekeeping thing. A certain youtuber said "Hey, synthesizers are luxury items, if you want to make music and you can't afford them, go and download VCV Rack or VST plugins and use them." Like... the rest of the music industry has a *price range* for every pocket. But not synths? What makes them more special than, let's say, an electric guitar. Fender is still going strong despite the TONS of clones of their stuff. So yeah, a lot of the flack that Behringer gets is, in part, the culture of "These synths are luxury items, hardware is for those who invest."
On the other hand, Behringer (and their CEO) is a company. Companies are never in for the good of their hearts. So yeah, probably (as most companies, mind you) are cutting corners, exploiting their workers (especially in China) and exploiting the laws to save money here and there. So yeah, the cheaper the company sells their products, the more they are cutting corners elsewhere.
And on the third hand: C'mon, everyone is crying that Moog is being sold to another company and changing... and no one blames the really blind decision to re-release a 50 years-old synth at 5k$? People are paying that for the *originals* since they are a collectable. A re-release carries the same things they stick up to Behringer: No innovation, just doing the same thing but hey... this is a luxury item. Where's Moog more affordable and new synths? That's right. They lived off the rent of their past. That has a limit. Other synth companies aren't doing bad... and they don't care much about the copies. They do new stuff, they carry on their reputation. That's why it works.
So yeah, people tend to forget that yes, we live in a Capitalist world and there's also a lot of "elite gatekeeping" too tossed around (and fanboyism). I for one, don't think I'm spending money on Behringer, but not for being copycats, but because they are pretty shitty to deal with critics and Uli seems another copy of Elon Musk.
Moderation is key when it comes to interpreting what has been presented and discussed on the big old web about any topic. Belief can only be formed through experience rather than by observation.
Because there is this level of accusation and confusion, at the end of the day I'd rather save a bit more and buy from another brand. But I'm happy to try a Beh from time to time if they come up with something really good and unique...Fortunately there is a much better range now days...
Great video and perfect tone. Loved your last thought about being moderate. We do need that.
As many people have said, and will continue to say, "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism". As you observed, if it wasn't Behringer doing this, it would be someone else. A marketplace will always produce winners and losers, thus producing either a race to the bottom (Behringer, Amazon copying popular listings), collusion between major players (ISPs in the USA, RealPage), or the logical conclusion of market monopoly (power companies in the UK, Microsoft). The Behringer debate is a microcosm of capitalism's inherent bias away from progress and innovation, instead preferring exploitation and consolidation to maximize profits (and thus, maximizing power).
The current conditions of our world certainly make it difficult to live by a firm set of ethics as ethical consumerism is disincentivized
4:44 Dave Smith Instruments were actually the ones reopening interests in analog synths, when they released the Prophet 08 in 2007, after a long period during which no brand had released an analog synth ! The Korg MS20 Mini only happened 6 years after the Prophet 08 :)
@@group-music Love how these have crazy stereo possibilities ! Amazing synths for sure.
Yep, when I went to buy my first synth it was between the Moog Lil Phatty or the Dave Smith Mopho module, I went with the latter for $330.
Nice video. I feel caught in the middle, to some extent. 5 years ago I would not touch anything Behringer. Now I own a B2600, Model D and a few Eurorack modules. But, I think I am done. For the price of the cheap Behringer clones I can get on Reverb and buy a used Elektron Model or some Arturia gear that comes guilt free.
Guilt free! 😂 Oh the guilt!
Do you own an iPhone?
Right, jumping on healthy discussion, since this topic is also bothering me.
I love analog gear. I love digital gear, but not as much as I love analog. There's why.
I've started making music like 15 years ago, and at the time, even tho I've had like 5-7 big gear shops in the city, everything was hella expensive. Everybody was playing metal music, so shops were focusing on guitars, guitar gear, romplers and stage equipment (mixers, lights, etc.). I was playing some gigs with metal bands as a guitarist, but in 2009 I randomly got into Portishead and it changed my life. I've never thought that music can sound like that. So in order to get this "sound of the future" I've been buying everything "unusual" which I could afford. I've had a cheap ribbon mono synth (something like Monotron), couple of pedals, some of which were broken, hybrid guitar amp with digital reverb and delay, guitar and bass. My friend had Casio rompler and we bought a shit mic from our friend who worked as sound engineer in a blues club.
With all that, me and my friend started to explore what's possible. Putting rompler through pedals, using broken pedals for "lo-fi" sounds, playing guitar with screwdriver, whatever we could come up with to overcome the limitations of our gear. And to this day, this process of "overcoming obstacles" is major part of my creative method. Advanced digital synths are great, convenient and powerful, software is AWESOME, but I really love to do 80% of my work on something simple and dumb, like Arturia Minibrute (2013 edition), or Moog Mother32, or even on Korg Volca. I mostly produce with hardware, but I use mostly software for mixing.
And that's why I have this love/hate relationships with Behringer. On one hand, I really should be a Uli fanboy, since he puts all this analog cool gear on a market for a cheap. On the other, it's a low hanging fruit. Land of instant gratification. Instead of being creative trying to reproduce sounds with what you already have, and saving up and working your way to original products, you can just get a readily available cheap substitute. Limitations force you to learn your stuff and be creative with it, patience pays off. I'd rather have 1 synth I'm 100% familiar with, than a 10 synths I know for 10%. On a less philosophical part of debate, the industry itself paved the way for Uli. People asking Roland constantly to make a proper reissue of their stuff, and they ignore that. If there's a demand, someone 100% will jump on it to create a proposition. Even tho Behringer products really contradict my worldview and my personal philosophy, I still have quite a temptation sometimes to get myself a Behringer clone of TR909 or CR-78. Maybe I should just go DIY.
I've had a very similar experience myself. Pushing limited gear is such a great way to create. You're right that the synth industry left a hole for Behringer to step into, which needs to be factored in.
There is an enjoyment to playing the game of synth collection, starting small and working up. I guess economic realities make it impossible for some to seriously play this game though, which makes a cheap minimoog arguably a good thing. It's unclear how to parse the ethics of all of this. DIY would actually be a pretty good way to bypass the whole thing. I spent some time making pedals, that was hella fun. Synth diy looks hella fun as well, but way more involves and time consuming. For me I have to factor in how much of my life I can dedicate to my creative pursuits, and at some point I chose I'd rather focus on making music with what I do have and wait a few decades before jumping into diy.
Thanks for sharing, and happy music making!
@@RobertOBlivion Thanks!
I guess the other point in this is that it's not always about what Behringer doing, but rather how. For example, Klon is one of the most cloned pedals, but independent boutique builders don't get as much heat as Behringer gets. Studio Electronics made their name by making Moog-inspired synths (they even had one made with Roland), but somehow Behringer's take on a subject feels more as a purely commercial rip-off. Behringer (arguably) don't bring any additional value to the table, they just cash in on shortage of analogue synths from heritage manufacturers by making synths that are close enough to originals to not cause the legal actions. Which is kinda sad, since Deepmind or POLY D is actually Behringer going in right direction - taking classic stuff and adding something on top.
Oh, also they had a pitch shifter pedal (U600, if I'm not mistaken), which was the take on Boss PS-5, and it was actually better than PS-5. Sadly it was also built like complete shit.
I would love to see more new builders on scene, doing their own thing, so we can finally move on. Dreadbox is making real moves with their analog stuff, Arturia isn't universally appreciated, but I love their raw brutal sound. I also really admire Moog moving on and making stuff like DFAM or Matriarch or Mavis. Because, to be fair, even tho I'm an analog junkie, I think it's time to focus on our own sound, instead of chasing the elusive charm of the Juno or minimoog. But until we ready, Uli is gonna Uli lol)
P.S. Thanks for an amazing vids, mate. MS-20 is a beast, and it took me a pretty huge willpower effort not to get the Mini version. I was on the fence between MS-20 Mini and Mother 32, and decided to go with M32, because well, every other synth I've had in my studio those days was from Korg. I had couple of Volcas (and still frequently use Volca Drum), I have minilogue, OP6, a monotron, so I was like - "Fam, calm da fuck down, it's time to explore other manufacturers, bruh". But I'm 100% buying MS-20, when I finally can afford bigger studio space lol
What is the name of the green font used in this video? (I know it's the old MS-DOS screen typeface, but don't know what it's called...)
... Teletext, maybe?
This is a great video! Thank you for doing it. Is it safe to assume that you're a Star Trek and Beyond Belief fan?
I love Star Trek so damn much. Only caught a few episodes of beyond believe, but love the memes of 'riker tells you you're wrong for a straight minute' 🤣
Love this video bro!
In my beginning music making days I needed some things on a budget.
There active DI box/ splitter and cheap bass overdrive pedal made my early drum computer recordings sound so damn good!
Subbed to your channel 👍
I'm also happy to cut a loads of wood with my 'cheap' mitre saw for years now, nobody complains about cheap tools on the market to get some job done, it's mainly about quality and durability...
Basically it's all tools to use in my honest opinion and I think it's great that behringer is giving people the possibility to enter a creative field of work without going bankrupt on some hobby experiment..
I'm not sure about the company's ethics, but I think it's just great that people are able to use tools that normally would be way out of there reach and start to create out of interest without braking the bank..
Well researched video. In my experience, GlassDoor is pretty good at calling out real issues employees face in companies. (e.g. if there's smoke, there's fire.) Sure some of the people who write negative reviews were probably bitter former employees who got fired. But when enough reviews point out bad practices of the managers, beware.
Great video, nice new channel I've discovered here! Keep it up man. Nice humour as well!
The KIRN campaign was absolutely terrible. It deserved to fire the ENTIRE marketing department at Behringer. There was also the episode where they cloned an Arturia controller. The clone was so close to the original and the IP theft so obvious that it provoked a backlash among both the consumers and resellers, with Sweetwater even linking to the Arturia product every time one searched for the Behringer product. Eventually, Behringer withdrawed their product quickly.
I haven't heard of bad things they have done since, so perhaps the bad publicity done to them by these two episodes has finally made them get a soul.
Otherwise, I haven't anything bad to say about their products. They started with cheap analog mixers, but now have a line of mixers that is pretty awesome (the X32 and WINGS).
My church has two X32's - apparently the touchscreen has gone bad on one and that renders it unusable.
They are ran by a childish baboon who significantly oppresses their workers.
Their products are largely good. Most their synths aren’t things I would buy, for one reason or another, but they are solid products. I agree the pedals are not great from a build perspective but the analog pedals are solid sounding. Their other hardware is very hit or miss but that’s what happens when you make everything in a “low cost, high quantity, way”
You must boycott an awful lot of companies then...
@@stevehaddon151
I have no clue what you are talking about?
@@jloiben12 He's saying that most companies oppress their workers.
You know, can we retire the argument that anyone in the synth myth hates Behringer because they are elitist and don’t want a company to provide affordable synths? This is a myth because Korg is widely loved and accepted. Dreadbox is loved and accepted without controversy.
People don’t hate Behringer for making affordable synths.
Also, weird defense of late-stage capitalism. It doesn’t have to be this way, and hating bad actors and punishing them in the market is ALSO part of capitalism. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it okay. Throughout history the law has allowed all kinds of evil. “Why does everything have to be so polarized?” Because some people are harming others. When a community rallies around David instead of Goliath I see it as a beautiful thing. Why not celebrate that? And we can be generous enough to hate Behringer but not the people who choose to buy their products. Just like Amazon and ATT and Exxon suck but we don’t demonize people using their services. Late stage capitalism offers fewer options. But critique and organizing against these powers is valuable. I think you ought to see the value in that more.
Really good video and deep research. One improvement idea for the next video we will hopefully see, put something audiovice to your intros for sections. I listened your video and didnt have the luxury to watch the video untill end and I was confused about few really empty moments after your centences. Some transit music or just synth bleebs (which we all love here) would do the trick. Othervice I loved it!
Thanks for mentioning that. Hadn't even occurred to me lol 😄. I'll be sure to factor in the listeners experience as well for my future videos.
@@RobertOBlivion If that much of your script needs re-recording, you should probably re-record it.
As an IP specialist, I welcome these copies as long as the public is not misled. E.g. Korg could make cheap rip offs of their own products to serve the buyer with little money, but they don't. The "poor" custmer (iow musician) couldn't afford the expensive "original" anyway.
Regardless of how close the topology is or how similar the units are to the original, the filters are never quite the same. That being said, it’s not the worst substitute for something you can no longer purchase new. I’m not even gonna get into the ethics of it that’s just the surface.
I'd like to comment that there was one particular incident which I believe caused the cork sniffer response. Please don't take this as a justification but simply as trying to understand how this came about -
As far as I know Kirn had published a list with alternative products from other companies to all the synths Behringer had released without any explanation to why in his opinion people should avoid buying Behringer products.
Again - I don't mean to justify the cork sniffer thing but I can understand how something like that can provoke such an emotional reaction.
When I watch Benn Jordan's video where he's accusing them of making "counterfeits" and calling the Behringer work facilities "prison complex" without comparing to any other company's workplace, I don't know how I would respond to that if I were in charge.
I think they do have a disruptive business model and part of that conflict was clearly pre-programmed.
I don't see the need to judge over the company as a whole, there are some products that should be criticised and others that I fully support and applaud them for. What we (don't) purchase is a direct vote for the kind of product we (don't) want them to make...
Thats the nail hit right on the head. Its complicated and just so much muck has been thrown from both sides that it comes down to every individuals belief. As for this video, great research, fantastic delivery.
Great summary of the whole Behringer controversy, very well structured and explained! Thanks! 👍
Thank you :)
I own an original set of Behringer Truth B2031A monitors. At the time they were 1/4 of the price of the Mackie HR824 they copied, but nowhere near as good. I once owned a controller keyboard but sold it because it was an ugly silver colour. Somewhere I have the cheap 2in2out USB audio thing it came with. Have bought nothing from them since until the last few weeks when I bought the Grey Meanie 2600. I am very impressed. I bought the 2600 because it was a great price due to a discount code - the Korg on sale is triple the price of the Behringer. The Korg also does not include the features from the Original ARP 2600 keyboard, the portamento and LFO as these were on the keyboard module. When Korg made a full size 2600, they put these features on the keyboard like the ARP original, but on the 2600M they left them off. So it's missing features vs a real 2600. Behringer moved things around and added the ARP 2600's keyboard features onto the front panel - so I have that LFO for example. They also added PWM control to two oscillators which the original lacked, added oscillator sync, added time controls (0.5x, 1x, 2x) to envelopes, and some other changes, I think one oscillator has more shapes than it did on the original, so it's more like one of the other oscillators. Anyway sound wise the videos online comparing them show the sound is pretty much spot on - with direct comparisons even it's super close. Watching videos and pics of the inside Behringer is using through-hole capacitors vs SMD electrolytic in the Korg - the SMD ones in old computers leak over time and are difficult to deal with. Who knows how long my 2600 will last for, and I'm making a 70's style vertical slant wooden case for it since at the moment it's a bit ugly - but so far I'm very impressed. I literally could not afford 3X for the Korg, and I would've lost useful features both added ones, and from the original. And since ARP is long gone, I don't feel bad about the IP side of things. It would be different if they were ripping off a current fledgling company.
Korg seem to have a habit of leaving the best features out of the mini versions. On the ms-20 mini's pcb someone found the circuitry necessary for them to incorporate the rev 2 filter, but with the components missing. Shows that they always intended to add that second filter as they ended up doing with the full size versions, but kept it out of their 'budget' version to create more market demand for their higher price one. With both the ms-20 and the 2600 it seems like Behringer's running circles around korg, giving more features at a lower price, basically cutting Korg's entry level units out of the market.
I'm surprised to hear that Behringer's doing through hole and Korg's doing Surface Mount. I would've thought it would be the other way around.
That wooden case sounds like a really cool build. I hope it goes well :)
@@RobertOBlivionI don't think they are actually using through hole tech for the whole build, they just replaced a small SMD component they used in the black/ orange version with a through hole part in the special versions Gray Meanie and Blue Marvin. They also changed the effect from a digital emulation to a real spring reverb.
The Korg and the Behringer are both fantastic, the Korg being a bit closer to the original sound but the Behringer with the better extended features and - while not quite as authentic in the lower mids - also great, almost like an improved and a bit cleaner sounding MK II version.
The Behringer truth monitors are more of a knockoff of Genelec1030s
Oh wow. Just looked those up, yeah you’re right :) I actually quite liked the later B3031A Truth monitors which has ribbon tweeters but they discontinued them. I think I’ll eventually get some Adams though. @@garethjenkins3933
The only behringer products I've ever bought, or owned, are the K2 and the TB-3-BK.
Both were bought as backups, and I agree the K2 is a great unit, compared to my MS-20fs I actually prefer the sound of the K2, by just a bit, although it still remains boxed, along with the TD3, because I only bought them as backups, and personally, I don't think they'd last a full on, well worn life.
That said, I've had multiple issues with brand new Moog stuff over recent years, and although I only have the 2 behringer products, I'd say on some devices, by both Moog and behringer, the builds are quite similar in QC, ie
- both lacking...
Been buying and selling gear since the mid 80s, and I'll just say I have nothing against people stealing ideas, it's been going on for years,
- Studio Electronics with their Minimoog clones, Alesis Quadraverb, the poor man's PCM-70, OG ARP2600 using the Moog filter, etc, etc.
I just wish behringer would go for quality over quantity, and in a more professional, respectable way...
They sound amazing, but they'll only ever be good for landfill in the future, due in part to the cost we value them at, but also many techs probably won't want to fix the future SM circuitry issues in a £200 unit,
- where's the money in that???
Still,
- love to ALL feel no hate
Can't tell you how much i too love Anna Log Nick Valentine... uuh Synths as well. Personally (especially speaking as a broke-ass dude who's happy enough to scratch together some cash for a cheap clone of a vintage analog synthesizer) i'm absolutely happy Behringer produces these. And i say that as someone who kinda disliked Behringer back in the mid - late 2000s. But as i grew older and shook off the idiotic distaste for them, my opinions changed. And it changed the day i unpacked my Poly-D and cried happy tears for I had finally a Minimoog in my possession. Something i had been craving since at least 2003. So going by that, and seeing what they have released so far and are going to release (heck i even still kinda wand the Deepmind 6) i'm just happy the low-income class finally gets to play with the things the elitist snobs don't want us to play with. Anything that makes instruments more accessible to others and liberates the gear-market, is a GOOD thing in my books.
Great video, thanks! For me, the problem with Behringer is that they market their cheap little Instruments as "clones". I own a collection of vintage synths and did side by side comparisons with Behringer synths, they always disappoint as clones, and I end up selling them. I was hoping to replace my vintage synths but... Nope!
However, the Behringers are pretty good synths, just not as clones. So, it's the marketing scheme, kinda like the emperors new clothes, buying cheap immitations to own all the great classics. I have a Matchbox Ferrari on my shelf, so therefore I own a Ferrari, and the whole Matchbox community agrees, yes, it is a Ferrari.
Your opinion. I had a MS20, SH 101 and 303 and the drummachines in the 1990s, hated all clone atempts that came out over the years but love the Behringer Clones, maybe compared to the originals they are 80 % of the sound which is good enought for me and definitely 100 % of the fun.
@@snörre23 whatever makes you happy. It's not just my opinion, Rob Papen made a video showing the limitations of the Behringer Ms20, and the synth tech of Anthony Marinelli explains alot of why these new synths are not the same as the old.
Imo, they sound similar to the originals, but the character, the flavour and liveliness and quirks are missing. All the Behringers sound kinda similar, like the same synth, only with different features.
There is always a lot of variability when it comes to analog synths. Put two Mimimoogs side by side, or two TB-303s, or two MS-20s, and you will always notice a difference. Yes, this is even true for stuff coming from the same factory, and built within the same time period. Behringer forms no exception: all the output falls within a certain range, but there will still be small changes from synth to synth.
@@unduloid I agree, but I think this is not the case with vintage vs Behringer, it has to do with modern electronics taking shortcuts and simplifying complex ciruitry. The result is a sound that is similar to the original but less complex, less rich, less personality/flavour.
@@74goldenjet
This reminds me of how guitar pedal enthusiasts will maintain how certain type of op-amp sound far superior to others, only to fail time and time again to tell pedals apart in blind tests. The same is true for synths. You see "Moog" and think: this _has_ to sound better. You see a Behringer and think: this _has_ to sound like crap. And then they do. Because that's how bias works.
Behringer came out with their effect "Bi-Phase" which is based on Mu-tron effects . After a year they changed the name for Dual Phase , but it is probably the best effect from Behringer I've had until now .
I'm new to music production. I decided few weeks ago to try synthesis. I bought Behringer pro 800. I heard from my brother in law: We don't like Behringer in my circles.
I get their arguments, don't get me wrong.
However, after playing for few weeks with Pro 800 I am already planning to buy Novation Peak. I would not consider buying it if I have not had the opportunity given to me by Behringer.
Benn Jordan's reverb plugin budget is about a hundred times bigger than my hardware budget. Good for him.
I'd written a long winded diatribe about Behringer..I decided...meh.. I already know they are genuinely an awful company. It takes very little research too figure that out
I know me personally if I'm buying something I do it right.. $400 isn't no chump change .. atleast to me.. I just purchased my first synthesizer a month ago, the moog matriarch and honestly I'm really happy I saved up and just went high end the sound/ build quality was worth every penny I might purchase one behringer if they ever release a 61 key vintage poly .. I may bite the bullet ... until then I'm saving for a prophet next
Interesting topics you mentioned. One thing missing is though, if there is not one doing the R&D, what are you going to copy then? It's one thing to create a clone of a vintage synth/gear. On the other hand copying IP from new stuff might kill R&D on the long run, if nobody is going to invest in it, because no one wants to pay for it and waiting for the Behringer copy. And all the Kirn moves were just cheap, law allowing it or not doesn't matter.
Option 3: There were high levels of formaldehyde in the building, but these had nothing to do with the Leukemia. Acute Leukemia is so rare that this is just a bizarre conclusion to draw based on "x can cause cancer" (what can't cause cancer?).
Great conclusion and final thoughts.
this video very eloquently says what i think a lot of us are thinking. sometimes its ok to not know exactly which side to take and just see the good and the bad. ide even say thats a very peaceful way to live. i kind of think if it wasnt behringer it would probably be someone else.
Interesting video. What I do know is that when they bought out Midas, their quality control improved dramatically. I have two of their MDX 4600 quad compressors. One pre Midas with the old style Behringer ear logo, and the other a mkII version which came out after they’d bought out Midas, TC electronic, Klark Teknik etc. The difference is huge. The old version is bigger with inferior knobs, switches and pots that crackle when you turn them, which also wobble a bit. Basically unusable. The new version with the newer logo has none of those problems. It seems anything with the newer logo appears to be of good quality.
I also have both their line mixers, TD3, Crave and FX2000 multi effects. All with the newer logo, and I have never had any problems.
Lets not forget, they’re one of only a few companies still making affordable outboard gear including compressors, rack mountable line mixers etc. DBX seem to be the one of only a few other companies making affordable outboard gear, but don’t even offer an on/off switch.
Recently I also bought the Behringer 18 channel audio interface and ADAT expander to increase the number of analog outputs from my MPC X. Not only do I have more outputs now, but it actually sounds slightly better too with more presence in the top end.
As for how they treat their workers.. You can watch videos on the Music Tribe RUclips channel. They have talent shows, Christmas parties etc. The sort of stuff they couldn’t make up. It definitely doesn’t look like ‘slave labour’.
That all said, I’m not a fan of them copying certain other gear like Arturia’s Keystep etc. Overall, I think the good far outweighs the bad.
"Uli making a world a lesser place with less innovation" is completely opposite of what is happening when clones are cheap. It means that in order to be successful synth company, one has to be original and innovate, rather than just ride on old product lines with little innovation (Roland Botique khm).
but it also suppresses the low end of the market. Meaning that Synth makers like Sequential and Moog can only turn a profit on mid tier and upper tier products. Their low end products have to compete with with a company that doesnt need to budget as much for R&D and spends much less on manufacturing.
It also means that kitchen sink synth companies have to compete against a company that is not only cheaper than they can ever be, but which has access to more markets and retailers.
Moog does research makes the dfam, Berhinger rips it off and does the edge, moog pays for r&d and b does the spice. Companies are expected to spend r&d in hopes that they will make that money back in the 1-2 years it takes berhinger to reverse engineer and rip them off?
So Roland have to come up with totally new innovations, or it’s their fault. Whilst B have never had a single original idea. Gotcha 😂 Ever wonder why they’ve never done any knockoffs of Roland’s newer gear…
I live in China. I have done so for 17 years. I think what a lot of people don't realize about China is that the government is extremely critical and scrutinizing of foreign enterprises, especially those employing Chinese workers, operating in China.
Additionally, what us westerners like to call "slave labor" can be super opinionated and anecdotal. "They don't even give the workers free coffee, man that's like... Totally slave labor!" Anyone can make a case about anything, then try to bring up a bunch of controversy to create their own drama.
I won't argue that there aren't bad actors in China, but I will say, it's FAR more difficult to do these things, especially for foreign companies, than people seem to think. Then there's the issue of how western media likes to take a single occurrence of something, tie it to other non-related things, then call it a trend and create drama around it. It's great for making China look like it's run by the most evil people in the world.
This narrative has been going so long that it's super easy for people to believe any horror story coming out of China because, "of course! China is evil!" The reality is, at least from my perspective of all the years I used to go and do training for different manufacturing companies, is that the vast majority of said companies are running them the same way we do in the west.
To the VAST majority of Chinese workers, they view their job as a job, they do it, they make money, they feed their families, they laugh and joke with their coworkers, they have benefits that are mandated by government order, like the company has to pay 2/3rds of their mortgage, pay living stipends, pay their medical insurance, pay for time off (more than most Americans, at that), among various other expenditures that they're legally obligated to cover.
All that aside, if one actually WENT to these manufacturing plants, they'd see that things are extremely normal, not some slave-labor camp like the media keeps pushing.
I wonder how many sweatshops you've visited that "really aren't that bad guys I swear"
@@ennayanne I wonder how many times you felt like you left a banger of a comment but everyone just slapped their head after reading it...
@@CaidicusProductions Interesting you just deflected my question rather than answering it, I wonder why that is?
I'm not the sort of person to think of internet comments as "bangers" but evidently you are. Maybe you should do some introspection about that and consider that not everything is about clout on the internet. Sometimes you're just wrong and it has nothing to do with me wanting updoots from kind strangers
@@ennayanne Deflecting nothing. It isn't my issue if you lack the reading comprehension skills to recognize that my first comment was all the answer one needs. If you feel like you know best because you read about stuff on the internet, good for you.
No one's going to change your mind, you're the boss, boss.
Firstly, I'd like to just dispel the cost argument - any musician will jump on a cost-effective deal if there is one to be had; more expensive doesn't necessarily mean better, though a lot of the time it usually means that that money does go to other features and better sound (again, not always). While the high-end market exists for those who can afford it, those people are not gatekeeping as far as wishing other people don't get gear; that's just silly. We're all fans of electronic music and want more of it out there. The alternative to people who don't have means is not that those people don't make music anyway; they just do it all in software. Behringer is among the cheapest, but there are other products on the cheaper end of the spectrum (some Arturia, Dreadbox, and Korg products come to mind). The cost thing is purely a business strategy - Behringer have a huge Chinese factory and are able to cut costs because they operate on scale.
If Behringer focused on more of their original ideas, they wouldn't get as much hate, which I deem is honestly rightly deserved. Sure, they put clones of unavailable products out there, which does smack of unoriginality, but more egregious is ripping off Maths, which is a currently available product from a much smaller company. The point here is to skim their business of what is literally the most popular module in Eurorack, with the aim of diluting Make Noise to the point where they consider closing up shop. Behringer knows that they're big enough that this small company cannot afford to sue them on any long timeline, which substantiates Behringer as the bully that it is.
Just some food for thought. The Corksniffer thing is super troubling - I mean, the dude had such a grudge he made a PROTOTYPE of it and then shot a slick video for it, for heaven's sake. Nowhere through that did anyone on his team stop to think, "hey, is this a good idea?" I've owned a few of their products in the past and they weren't great (an amp and an audio interface). People get good things out of their synths but detuning seems a perennial problem. Such is the risk you run with cheaper gear. It'd be fun to get their 303 for $100 though.
Hot topic. I mostly just use VSTs for writing and recording. I have no need for analogue, but want a little set up for jamming. If it weren't for Behringer, I probably wouldn't be buying any hardware.
We should not care, I don't care, because those brands do not care about the people who can't afford those brands. They do very much care about releasing good synths, but they also care a lot about maximizing their pricing. So they add stuf you don't seriously need or want to use, like effects or unusable sequencers. Stuff you don't use in the studio and even not live. Most people who buy Berhinger can't afford anything else anyway, but are potential customers for bigger brands when they make money or grow older. I have many synths and only a few Behringer, ms-1 and 2 Pro-1's, because these rare originals are old, way to old and as a sequential fanboy I had to have a Pro-1, might buy the Pro-800 as well. Some brands need to check their pricing, they are over the top. One might argue that 2500 for a prophet 5, 6, OB-6 desktop is reasonable, but 3799 for a OB-X8 desktop is insane, that's retarded and they should be ashamed. I seriously don't get it, wouldn't they sell more for cheaper prices and still make the same or even more money with it?
If you hold a patent you have X years (usually around 20, according to country) to make money before it expires.
I find it hard to criticise any company charging as much as they can - they're in the business of making money/maximising profits after all.
Some might have social pricing, but they're a small minority.
I ran a business where I sold my labour in time packets - I charged what I could, playing the supply and demand game. That doesn't make me a gouger, it made me enough money to live on (barely) and you'd still have people trying to bargain the price down, because everyone wants to pay less.
The synth market is just another market. The original company charges $$$$$$$$$$$$ because it costs a lot to have people spend years behind benches researching/developing - if someone wants the cachet of buying original manufacturer after the patents run out that's their problem - people still buy Rolls Royce when a Merc is engineered just as well/better - the market is big enough for both.
And what if you can't afford the clone? Life just isn't fair.
Used to really hate Behringer.
I owned one of their little 8 channel mixers. After 6 months the power supply died on me.
Looked around online and a replacement cost more than the shitty mixer.
Then a few weeks later same thing happened to my DJ friend with one of their DJ mixers.
Also really hated the ADDA I bought from them back when I needed more inputs for my DAW.
Over time I softened my opinion.
Even thought about getting one of the Arp 2600 or 909 knockoffs.
But this video changed my mind on that.
Have to say, plenty of companies have done the same as Behringer in terms of undercutting the major brands.
Peavey, Ibanez and Korg all got where they are by selling cheap gear to working musicians. With a little bit of 'borrowing' or being heavily influenced by more dominant brands.
Yet they never garnered the hate Behringer gets.
Maybe because they werent jerks about it?
Your video definitely helped me articulate how I feel about Beringer in my head. Not necessarily changing my mind just solidifying my thoughts I don’t really have a big issue with what they put out. The idea of morality in Capitalism to me is a joke has anyone ever actually looked at capitalism. The morality of capitalism is make money, and Behringer, for all intents and purposes, seems to help people who don’t make as much money. I mean I would give my left nut to own a bunch of Moog synthesizer‘s, but cancer already took my notes so I’m broke. I only own one piece of gear of theirs and I’m probably gonna sell it but there is other stuff I’d like to get.
I do think Uli can definitely be in a hole, but if we stopped buying everything from made by companies that were run by a holes, we wouldn’t own a single thing, she is just more public and out in the open than most companies and Behringer is an easy target
I'm glad you found value in what I had to say. Sorry to hear about the cancer. I hope you're doing alright and have a good recovery
I am sorry you have to deal with cancer, and I am happy to see that you are still around!
I have lost too many, My dad 2014, my uncle 2015, to of my best friends 2021, 2023 and many more friends and family to cancer over the years. I think everyone born after the industrial revolution will die from some form of cancer seeing how that time period ushered in so many toxins and carcinogens to our everyday environment.
Good luck fighting yours and if it is in remission, I'll have my fingers crossed for you hoping that it stays there!
The solution is to start a new company a beat Behringer at its own game : Clone the clones
Zehrbinger
CloneyClone inc.
Clone wars 🤣
but thats the whole problem. where is there such a huge market for clones? whats the point? sure for a time you get something similar to the sound you wanted in a package that looks like it, but they wont age as well as the originals, and nothing new is added to the industry. Meanwhile every company trying something new is doing it at huge prices like UDO synths. I would much rather see a company rival Behringer by providing affordable synths that can hit that classic sound of the synth they're inspired by, but add better interfaces, fx suites and modulation options the originals never had. Maybe they'll never sound 100% or as good as the things they were inspired by, but they could improve the potential of those synths in a way thats way easier on the pockets of the users.
@@rui5421 I don't know and I'm certainly no "cork sniffer" but I would feel embarrassed to show up on stage with a Behringer product. It's like one of those knockoff watches you buy from some guy in a trench coat who has a couple dozen of them hanging from the lining..."ah, but this Rodex keeps really good time and such a deal..."
you have a funny way of saying behringer and the outro music is too loud under your voice but other than that this was an excellent - and surprisingly impartial piece of work - really is a tough topic .. in other documentaries i heard the point being made that behringer copying old designs is fair enough but releasing clones of hardware which is currently being produced is very naughty instead.. i find that to be a very valid point as well. I still dont know where i stand on behringer as a whole because i certainly cannot afford 3k synthesisers and yet i am not sure if cloning the companies innovating 3k synthesisers so they eventually go out of business is the right way.. actually i do think it is despicable.. yea.. yes i do
Since i have little interest in older instruments I am not in Behringers demographic. I do take issue the comments at 33:22 professional musicians can earn a lot of money, and the ones I know talk about music not gear. When did people start calling anyone with more money than them rich? One question about Behringer that only time can answer is durability. Having said that the only thing you need to make quality music is talent. If you want to make money you also need hard work and luck.
How dare you not pick a side
this is a great assessment of the insanity around behringer...and the reality probably is, the community is the worst part about behringer. For everynone claiming behringer is an evil clone market, they ignore that it's the most profitable thing they've done. They tried original things like Juno-inspired (but not a clone) Deepmind, and everyone demanded a direct Juno clone or no dice.
The funny thing about these industries where you raise up a figurehead for the entire company is that you get weird places where people want to demonize or excuse everything that they do. If we found out Bob Moog or Dave Smith were racists or abusers, people would defend their "art and contribution to the market" and forgive everything. Behringer on the otherhand has a noble goal on the surface, and is demonized for it.
My guess is, everything is bit true, and a bit embellished. Uli is a flawed person, in a flawed company. We have to choose if this company's products are worth our time, and honestly the fact that all they do is make clones now is why I dont buy from them. Not because of some moral concept, but just because it's so uninteresting. With so many makers out there doing "inspired by" synths, I wish that behringer wasn't cloning 1 to 1, and instead did things like the deep mind where you can see the inspiration and the deviations that push the market forward.
Yep, Uli is obviously a narcissist, that's frankly what it takes sometimes in the business. He is obviously personally writing way more of the Behringer social media posts than he should. I really like the Behringer non-clones (I have two Neutrons).
Really enjoyed your video and you raised excellent, balanced points.
My personal view is other than my Moog Mavis I can't afford Moogs (or other manufactures) more expensive synths, but I do want to own them, so if Behringer make a cheaper version I'm more than happy to buy it, I have the Crave and the Model D and I love them both, plus the Neutron which, in my view, is a wonderfully eccentric and original synth. I can't wait to get the Edge as it's less than half the price of the Moog DFAM. If I had more money would I buy the DFAM? Of course! But I don't... so I can't... so I won't 😅
Edit: Just in case anybody breaks down the price of the Model D, Crave, Neutron and the Mavis and sell them to get the DFAM, well at the time of buying them I didn't know about the DFAM - maybe that would be an option one day.
I bought a behringer ms1. I received it with a broken key so I repaired it by using super glue. Lately, another key broke so I had to repair it again. Also, a knob broke so I repaired it… Every other behringer instruments I own are pretty good in terms of quality but the ms1 is so low…
Robert, Do you mind telling me a little about your professional background? I'm researching the company for a paper and want to refer to this video.
Sure thing. I work professionally as a sound engineer, doing live sound as well as studio recording, producing, etc. If there's more you need to know about me for your paper I can be reached by this email (cyberspaceoblivion@gmail.com)
I agree with @jackispax1633 and furthermore they totally fucked up Midas thinking they could sell shitty small footprint mixers solely on brand heritage.
When a company makes me angry - I hate on them and I don't care.
When a device is cheap and decent - I buy it and I don't care.
I don't care about feelings of big companies - if I can take it, they can too.
Brand loyalty is stupid - they won't be loyal to you either.
I feel no emotion or empathy to wealthy companies - they don't either.
Being emotional about wealthy companies is brain dead.
Be logical and know what you want.
I’ve owned Behringer gear over the years and every single piece of equipment I’ve ever owned worked perfectly never had any problems, mixing boards, speakers, compressors, digital delay units, and now synthesizers.
There’s lots of affordable synthesizers on the market but Beringer always gets a bad wrap.
Watch my video on expensive synthesizers.
Phone manufacturers always do something shady to increase profit, either sweat shop labor, OS truncate to make people buy the next phone generation and more, I don't see people with pitchforks going after them. Behringer is one of the few companies who have the balls to give people tools to make music at an affordable price while most of the rest wants to be the Apple of the synth world, so thank you Behringer to keep giving us a chance to make music with our thin wallets. In the end, its all about the music, what can you do with the instruments, rather than politics, cause if we go that path, not even the shirts we wear are made with "legit" practices, there is always a person in a shack somewhere in places like India underpaid doing the shoes we like.
That being said, we need legitimacy in business, but there's no such thing once you pass a certain profit threshold, Behringer will always be the dark horse of the industry, "controversy" aside, they are amazing for giving us all these tools at affordable price, if was other company, would be pushing at least double the price on what they offer, that is how I see it at least.