One thing to also note - Behringer has been difficult with retailers as well. Only super-sized retailers are permitted to sell the gear only if they carry the full product line, which is impossible for many smaller shops.
That’s what Gibson was doing to independently owed retailers in the mid 2000s. They told these retailers that if they wanted to remain an authorized Gibson dealer, then they had to also carry their custom shop models that only dentists and lawyers can afford This was a strategic move on Gibson’s part to rid themselves of these smaller dealers… that way they could sell out completely to guitar center. And the rule stands to this day - if you want a Gibson guitar, you must get it from guitar center, or it’s subsidiaries, like musicians friend
This is so insanely well-said. I've been working on an essay about a specific Behringer product and you so perfectly said what I've been looking for the words for. Bravo.
"Why are you like this?" Jorb's observations about their absurd attempts to frame themselves as underdogs standing against the fuddy duddy establishment are keen, and it's especially bizarre when they attack the commentariat. People who examine gear for a living are perforce insiders, sure, but ffs behringer is a multinational corporation.
I think it's silly because artists constantly paint themselves as working class heroes constantly, even when coming from the upper or middle class. So it's almost like Behringer has an obligation to follow.
I LOVE mine, too! I recently got rid of a Prophet Rev 2, because between the Take 5 and the Pro 800 (and to a lesser degree, the Pro 1), I felt I had too much I liked in that territory better - the Take 5 is so fucking versatile, and both it and the 800 have a better raw sound. I'm not saying the Rev 2 is a bad synth by any means, I did love it, and sitting down and making patches on it before the buyer came to pick it up almost had me changing my mind, but I think of it as a good bread and butter synth for people who don't own dozens of other synths. I ended up using the funds toward a Trigon 6, which I am SO in love with - it just sounds so smooth, and I haven't been able to get a bad sound out of it. Sequential is truly a great company. I can justify things like the Poly D (and the upcoming Pro-16, though that's a tougher one because I'm such a Sequential fanboy, and I have actually been considering buying a real Prophet 5/10 Rev 4) because I don't think anybody who already planned to spend $5,000+ on a real deal minimoog is really going to be swayed by it - for those people, nothing else but the real thing would do - nor would most people considering buying it likely be willing to spend that kind of money for one anyway (to me, while the minimoog is a classic, I wouldn't have ever spent $5,000 to own such a basic synth, so if there'd never been a Poly D, nobody would have made a cent more off me - I just would have to live without it).
The keybed on the Take 5 is soo much better than the older Sequential synths. And it sounds soo nice compared to the Rev2. I think it's because the presets on the Take 5 are drenched with effects unlike on the Rev2 which to my ear have one or two effects layered.
@@RishPanjeetJrI didn't say I regretted it. It's an amazing synth. I think when we start our synth journey we try out different things and occasionally change things out. Don't hate me when I say I'm selling it to try out a Korg Nautilus haha
Subject matter of this video completely aside, integrity seems to have gone missing in the world or 'people/companies/etc.' jump in and out of integrity as it suits them. Watching your video shows you have integrity. No judgies, putting forth how you feel, in an open and honest format/forum. Thank you. Never forget who 'You' are.
Amazing video Jorg! I’m from South Africa - it’s often alienating to watch the discourse surrounding Behringer dominated by people with way more disposable income. It’s so refreshing to hear your very balanced, empathetic stance. Separating their ‘clones’ of vintage from their ‘clones’ of pieces still in production. I really agree with everything you’ve said. And as someone who builds and has used open source designs because I couldn’t afford to buy. behringer using that narrative of democratising is heartbreaking.
I am a poor person, sometimes Behringer is a needed evil. I wanted an 808, that was fully analog.....nothing besides the Behringer was even close to affordable.
@@warpigs330 Benn Jordan makes the argument that it's not; and I absolutely agree; but I have people getting at my throat on reddit for "wanting to gatekeep what is a need and that you don't need to make music anyway". I'm a bit tired of this shit.
Contrast Behringer with a company like Warm Audio, and you'll see a stark difference in two companies known for similar market positions. Difference is one is thoughtful about what they copy.
This issue of corporate greed is a problem and not just in the synth world. That's why I commend you for taking a stance as we all should against corporate overreach.
Red Means Recording had a great take on this. Instead of accepting (or demanding) to keep the demo unit, he suggested that a flat monetary fee would be paid to the reviewer, exactly for the reasons you listed; (time, cost of materials, etc).
Thanks for the heads up, the info from Ben, BoBeats and you. People I actually trust, is enough for me to know that I wont deal with a company going after people, suing them, and making products using other peoples hard work.
I think your stance is really how a lot of people feel about Behringer. Most of us want to support the good aspects but then they keep pulling these stunts and people are becoming aware of their history of unethical business practices. Very objective and well thought out Jorb.
"unethical business practices" the vast majority of all corporations including ones that make Synths have awful practices they just hide them better than Behringer
Well this is some refreshing content! Very well thought out and articulated, and brave of you to form an opinion on this and not just do a news post about it.
I'm sorry to hear you have some negative feelings when you think about your deepmind videos. When I saw your videos I was so amazed at how good your programming was and how well you understood the synth. So much so that i bought a deepmind12. Anyway, regardless of anything, your deepmind12 work is awesome and I thank you for it.
I've never heard him have anything but still have praise for the Deepmind. He even says in this vid a few times that he holds it in high esteem. If anything, he's saying that it's so good that that is the kind of thing that Behringer SHOULD be focusing on. I mean, they ALREADY have an awesome multi-effects unit in that thing, so why aren't they incorporating it in other units (other than the XR-18 and X-32 I mean, which are awesome)?
You inspired me to get my DeepMind 12. I bought your Juno 106 bank for the DeepMind 12. It’s still an exciting synth. What a shame that corporate greed and unscrupulousness could taint what should be a good thing for everyone. I’m looking to trade in gear for a new purchase, and my local retailer told me they distance themselves from Behringer. I don’t blame them, but again-what a shame, because the DeepMind 12 is a good piece of affordable kit that you did good work on. But keep doing you. Kudos, brother.
Jorb gettin spicy! Lemme grab my popcorn 🍿 - jk, I appreciate how well thought out this was. This might be one of the most well articulated videos on why Behringer rubs so many the wrong way. "just because it's legal doesn't mean it doesn't suck" WELL SAID.
I'd also like to point out that their actions backfire in that they are taking that random, disorganized diaspora of synth youtubers and is slowly bringing them together.
I've owned a handful of behringer gear. The only thing they've made that I think is worth owning is the deep mind. My disdain for this company has only grown exponentially. That said, I'm not exactly sure what I'll do when their Jupiter clone is finished. Probably won't buy it but it'll be interesting to see how they build it.
Unless that was their plan all along!! Cue Uli Facebook post in ten years taking credit for building the RUclips synth community by consolidating hate toward his company 😂😂😂
I love what Behringer has been trying to do with making synthesizers affordable... but this whole social media thing has really lost me. They need to sack whoever has been making these decisions on their press and marketing.
yeah, I hopped to the comments to say this exact thing. It's really frustrating, because I love that synths/music are more accessible to the masses, but the behavior of the company is a problem.
Unfortunately it looks like you need to sack Uli, because things he has been saying personally track a little too closely to the whole shit show even if it isn't a 100% coverage. And nobody has the power to sack Uli.
I think a bit of commentary missing is addressing the fact that regardless of their motivations, they make replicas of vintage hardware that is otherwise not affordable and do a damn good job of it, most of the time. Of course there is a market for the UB-Xa, not many people would fork out $5000 for a reproduction or an actual vintage model.
Nicely set out. I don't like the idea of the synth community being intentionally divided over this.We already have enough divisions. Analogue is better than digital.
People do this with everything and it drives me crazy. Saying one thing is better than something else. A less violent way to say it is “I like analogue better than digital” nobody can effectively argue with what you like.
@@mattuskamusicAre you developing @markgriffiths5122's argument further or are you complaining about his last statement being absolutistic? Because, actually, I think "analog is better than digital" was just an example for unhealthy divisions, not his opinion.
sigh. It was a joke. I talk seriously about not dividing the community and then make a sweeping hack comment that undercuts that statement. I thought by now everyone realised that the "analogue vs digital" & "hardware vs software" arguments were shown to be pointless back in the 2000s if not before and now have achieved the status of a in community joke.
I'm old... I've been messing around with audio gear for a long time and it's often been Behringer because that was what I could afford. It's always let me down.... always. The older rack kit, compressors, the ada8000, etc, that had cheap PSUs which would get fried. The digital mixer DDX3216 (genuinely a really nicely design unit) that failed and when sent for repair most of the capacitors weren't soldered in The brand new XR18 which literally went up in smoke the night before a gig The DI boxes which seem to made out of egg shells The euro series analogue mixers that usually had dead channels out of the box The TD-3 that didn't output any sound..... The X32 Racks that barely last a year - one organisation i worked for went through so many they didn't even bother with warranty, just gave up and bought something that worked. Behringer's gear is bad. the quality of their manufacturing and QA is bad. But that isn't nearly as bad as the blatant ripping off. They've done this since inception. Early compressors were cheap clones of small companies that couldn't afford to sue. It all leaves a very bad taste and it's upsetting these fundamentally terrible business practices have served Behringer well enough to be able to buy up all the big names.
I disagree to a certain point. I have an x32-2nd gen for 7 yrs and it’s never been serviced and it was used a lot when I purchased. I have x32c, m32c, 2- s-16 stage boxes, 2-dl 32 stage boxes and 2- sd16 stage boxes. All still work and have not let me down. Now, I have read multiple comments that the service department is total crap. Turn around time is horrible etc.. Never experienced it yet but if gear starts going south, I will be switching to Allen & heath gear. It’s cheap and I made my money back on investment so I can’t complain
@@rossberning6538yeah and that’s all perfectly fair. It sounds like you’ve had a great run with that gear and I doubt it owes you anything. I seem to have been remarkably unlucky. Of course the other problem with B’s gear is the whole race to the bottom… everyone else has to compete so they either cut costs or, like Midas, end up getting bought out by Behringer
Thank you for presenting this all in a rational, measured, and non-antagonistic/non-adversarial manner, and for staying above the fray. I have my own opinions, most of which I'll keep to myself (not because I agree or disagree, but because I simply don't want to get into it). But, I will say that I've felt the same way about "the clones" for some time. Cheers!
I watched Deadringer make mistake after mistake for years (ever since they unsuccessfully sued DSI and 20 random people on GS for posting their opinions back in 2017). Frankly things haven't improved since then. Spot on video and great job of laying out the facts surrounding all the controversy. Liked and subscribed. Full disclosure, I own an MS-01 and love it.
Great chat about a rough topic. You hit the nail on the head with part 3. And the same goes for all the companies over seas that are making bootleg versions of other items (i deal with mics a lot). If you can put that much effort into putting together a product to match something EXACTLY, how much more (or less) effort would it take to just tweak the design a touch to make the product better or just different, as I don't really believe in "better" or "worse". Most of the bootleg companies stay under the radar but BGR wants to inflate their chest and pound on it like they "did something" we should all be in awe of. The DIY community has been cloning for decades and its a bit of a written and unwritten rule of sorts that you don't clone, then try to commercially release something. It's a shame that company that has all the potential in the world has decided to take a narcissistic approach to doing business with the world. Thanks for the video!
Awesome video Jorb. It can be a trap to play into the sensational discourse around the company and you avoid all that perfectly. Straightforward commentary and I love how it set the ground rules up front. We watch your channel because of your passion for gear and it inspires us. There’s nothing inspirational about hyperbole from a company claiming to change the world. Thank you and keep on inspiring us!
Very much to the point. You are great in articulating your opinion and I totally agree 👏 Thanks for taking the time to inform people. I hope this will lead to more people choosing to spend their money to support passionate companies and individuals that invest in R&D.
When I was in elementary school, I was a Lego elitist. I couldn’t stand Mega Bloks. One day, I was complaining about Mega Bloks to a fellow Lego enthusiast, and his response blew my 3rd-grade mind. He said “You should love Mega Bloks, you should be thankful for them! If they didn’t exist, Lego would be the only one and they could charge any price they want!” I don’t know enough about Behringer to judge their business strategy and practices, and I can’t comment on the quality of their products. However, from the strict perspective of a consumer under capitalism, their existence is a positive influence on me. At the very least, their cheaper alternative products incentivize the next original product to be more affordable. The real issue here is capitalism, it’s always capitalism
I know it is very popular to talk about the virtues of competition, but I don't believe it is that simple. In lots of areas competition actually hurts innovation. That Lego could charge whatever they wanted if there was no Mega Blocks simply isn't true. In Norway where I am from there was no Mega Blocks when I was a kid. Lego didn't charge whatever they wanted. If you charge too much you wont make any sales. Even a monopolist cannot charge whatever they want. Especially not for something like a toy which isn't a requirement for anyone to live. In Norway we had several state run monopolies which go privatized. There was pros and cons to that. The prices dropped but so did the innovation. They could no longer maintain large R&D departments which was possible due to higher prices. With competition prices got pushed down too much to be able to afford expensive R&D. You can see similar with the Apple clones in the 90s. It didn't lead to innovation. It lead to lower prices but it almost sank Apple as a company. The clones didn't innovate much. And you can see this with modern Apple. They charge a premium but they are also more innovative than their PC competitors. Back to Synth modules. These tiny outfits of may just one or two people making innovative modules do this as a passion. It isn't like they are creaming the market. When you are a small outfit producing units by hand you cannot sell cheap to make ends meet. A company like Behringer is driving these little guys out of business or hindering them from growing into anything of size. The money they loose is money they could have spent on R&D or expanding.
I love how no one in the comments seemed to bother watching the video up to the point in which you categorized the different knockoffs and just thinks you're saying any knockoff is bad.
They could sit on discontinued equipment and make their money. There is no reason to steal current IP and attempt to trademark the last names of creator’s literal names. Makes me sick.
@@sub-jec-tiv Yeah, just like almost everybody else who works.. And even more so in third world countries - which nearly every western company exploits somehow
Make Noise Maths - £289. Behringer Abacus - £99.99. Personally I am totally fine with this, modular is really expensive and that is a high barrier for entry. Yes there is VCV rack, but I think the argument of 'oh theres free software' isn't really applicable when discussing pure hardware. Majority of modular users/enthusiasts are here for the hardware and hardware only. The purists with money to burn will always buy Maths and won't even think of 'tainting' their rack with the 'inferiour' Behringer clone. But people like me with less income to burn on setting up a small rack, the price difference is huge and enables me to set up a rack with some of the big hitters (expensive) and still have the bank to include one/two of the clones, it's thanks to this that i'm even able to experience these modules as setting up a full rack of the OG stuf, even a small one is way too expensive (£800 plus).
"To steal": to take (the property of another) without right or permission. To present or use (someone else's words or ideas) as one's own. "To counterfeit": to imitate something authentic, with the intent to steal, destroy, or replace the original, for use in illegal transactions, or otherwise to deceive individuals into believing that the fake is of equal or greater value than the real thing. Let's call a cat a cat. Thank you Jorb for expressing your opinion. We can still see, from your precautions, the fear of the repression from B.
I too draw the line at Behringer’s clones of current products. And by current I don’t mean Minimoogs and 808s, but Keysteps, Mother 32s, Maths, Marbles, and what have you. Behringer’s clones of these products serve only to stifle innovation. With all that said I have a Model D, a Pro-1 and an RD-8, and these are products that I applaud Behringer for bringing to market. Affordable clones of these defunct-but-desirable designs have been low-hanging fruit for synth makers for a long time, and since nobody owns their designs any more, I applaud Behringer for making them available for realistic prices. As for the drama between Behringer and “influencers”, I think Uli’s crew have painted themselves into a corner. When Behringer attempts to rob companies like Arturia (did anyone really think the Keystep was too expensive?) as well as Moog and boutique manufacturers like Make Noise, how can anybody in the synth community be expected to think that’s cool? It’s a step too far, RUclipsrs have pushed back in droves, and now Behringer is making up stories about a lack of free evaluation gear being the cause of the lack of coverage of their gear. If Behringer really “hears” us, they should discontinue their products that directly copy the small businesses that are innovating. Crave, Edge, Swing, and other products that challenge our ethics have got to stop. In time, maybe the influencers would even forgive them and, faced with some new compelling original products, start reviewing their gear again.
I like my pro-800. finally an affordable poly I want. It may not be an exact clone of the real one but it sounds close for me enough as my first Prophet sound goes and on a budget. I would not spent +2k on a synth anyway.
Sometimes B- does good work. For instance, the Neutron is quite innovative and is not a clone from other company’s engineers. But it’s hard to look past a lot of their bullshit, like how they treated Peter Kirn.
@@doctorsynth1 Synth wise, I think B has done an outstanding job! There is quite no other company that has achieved so much synth recognition in such a short time and quality with their synths that are solid at a given price point. Sound wise, it's a matter of opinion. Are they clones? Not to me! If you going to make a human clone, for example it better look ~99% the same (preferably identical in every aspect) Per definition it's not the same. I could list a dozen of reasons why I don't see them as clones rather simply inspired by originals. Every mayor company have some questionable moral issues, many are covered up by lawyers. We could argue: the reason our country is in economics/social turmoil is because we allowed the corporations to dictate our life to us. They pretend to be our unelected government right now. Do they have morals? Hell no! I agree Behringer should keep their customer relation department in check but we should allow freedom of speech and expression too as long as we doesn't infringe of rights of others and there are repercussions for everting we do. Being butthurt doesn't qualify. We created a nation of snowflakes that need their safe space. Finally, we do need a good laugh in a life that is getting almost impossible to be sane....end of my rambling.
Their Pro 1 & 800 are great, as is their rare synth cloning stuff, but it's their core practice that's dogshit and dirty. If you can deal with the fact that they're trying to put small modular businesses out of business as a wing of their brand, and do direct price cut rips of other peoples products, then the unobtainable clones they do are fine. But you're supporting that business model
@@robertcrystals We have the power, we have the say, they'll listen when their pockets hurt. Stop buying the stuff that doesn't feel right to you...for whatever reason it will sent the message. Problem is us not caring and allowing the corporations run our life as I have said before. The corporate mind set is obliged to its shareholders not an average synth joe, morals not withstanding. we need to WTFU before is too late. I am speaking generally here not only about B.
@@doctorsynth1 I don't buy synths because Behringers politics, I buy them to make music. Edge for instance has MIDI, moog doesn't and has more features it's 3 times less. I'm no Behringer fan boy, I own many other brands but if something is good I'll buy it. GO to your local Grocery store and they will have their own brand that's almost 100% identical to the name brand for much lower price, BUT When it comes to Synths and Audio equipment, seems like everything needs to be original. Plus why isn't Roland releasing TR-08 Analog? That's what the people want instead they release some boutique garbage. I own the TR-8s and the MC-707 and I love them. But People want a reissue of the CLASSIC TR-08, Behringer did it twice with the RD-8 and RD-9
I’m going to get a behringer model d as soon as I can. That being said, I’m not as excited or proud to do it, the way I was when I got my Nymphes, or my Drum Brute. Being a working class musician, who does play professionally actually puts you in a weird spot in terms of gear acquisition. It would take me 100 shows to pay for a mini moog. I’d love to but, oof.
"I want affordable tools for my _job"_ hits differently than "I want affordable toys for a hobby that _might_ become a career," which is how most B-fans sound.
The frustrating thing I feel that is missing from a lot of B discourse is this: you don’t hate Behringer, you hate capitalism. The point about B allowing smaller companies to take risks and then swooping in and pricing them out of the market happens in so many industries. It is literally the purpose of a company to do this simple and basic tactic! In publicly traded companies, leadership is contractually and lawfully obligated to make decisions that benefit the board and the shareholders. If, for example, a CEO had market research in their hands clearly showing high sustainable demand for clones (within the boundaries of trademark restrictions), they would be lawfully obligated to push for ramping up of clone production. Behringer is not a publicly traded company so things likely work a bit differently, but the concept is the same. Or to put things in a more positive way: “You don’t love your favorite synth company, you love a small collection of product designers that work for a soulless shell that exists to extract profit from its workers 😅”
Not only does Uli not show up to Superbooth but he doesn’t even send minions to superbooth, because they likely would face major hostility. That should tell you how the modular designer community feels about Behringer.
And don't ever ask anything related to an issue with their gear on their FB pages or their employee Jamie Monroe comes and tells you that you are wrong or to not ask questions about your user experience.. my RD-8 gets to 130°f on the top after 30-45 minutes of playing it and all i wanted to know was if this is common or do i have a faulty product.
Oh no - the Jorb Kirnsniffer. Please do a colab with Mr. Kirn on a pedal and let Arturia manufacture it, then play the DM12 through it. Sorry that was silly. I couldn’t help myself.
Brilliant commentary Jorb. I was excited to be able to buy the Model D clone for such a great price. It highlighted the OTT price Moog charge. At the time this seemed like a win. Unfortunately after a year it just stopped working. Sadly I binned it because I wasn’t aware of the three year warranty. I have never had another piece of gear fail this way. Few of us can just go out and casually buy any synth, regardless of the price bracket it falls into. 99% of us have to budget and save for each purchase, even if it is a Behringer synth. The £299 I paid for the Boog is still not a disposable amount so the purchase was a false economy.I hope UB watched your vid to the end. Behringer could be a great synth company. For some reason they choose to be the opposite whilst allowing other manufacturers to take all the risks. Playing and owning synths is a pleasurable experience. I don’t and won’t contribute to the profits of a Behringer because my conscience would get in the way. Owning a huge company and being very wealthy must be great but when you look at what behaviours typify Behringer it wouldn’t be something I would attach my name to.
glad I learned that lesson in 2003 with a behringer mixer, never again after three replacement power supplies failed due to a bad component in the mixer.
@@screamingstrings76 hear hear. Long before any of this synth drama stuff, I saw someone trying to fix just such a mixer... he found-out it was so cheap inside he'd be better-off buying a whole new decent mixer, rather than trying to upgrade the Behringer's components.
Well presented. Your points were valid. I'm one who was thankful for the Behringer clones, as my hobbyist budget would not extend to restored original synths. In fact, I sold my original Korg MS10 and bought the K-2 for the improved connectivity and form factor. The Keystep clone was a gut punch, as it was uncalled for. The System 55 clones got me into Eurorack, so again I appreciate clones of unaffordable systems, but I totally agree that sniping current issue modules like Maths is likely to hurt the Behringer brand. My last purchase was the Moog Studio, because I was willing to spend the extra to have the original, rather than the Behringer copies. The Swing 32 was a big part of that decision.
You gotta remember companies like Sony, LG, Ibanez, Canon, Nikon, etc all copied until they created their own exciting products. They're most likely not going to be copying forever.
I don't think behringer is using clones as a chance to get established, if that's what you're saying. Theyre already huge, it's their strategy, not a stepping stone. Plus their only original synth, the deepmind was ~7 years ago, and they don't seem interested in that type of development anymore.
True, I guess I forget how big they actually are since I don't follow them too much in their many other avenues.. I owned a deepmind which I honestly enjoyed but had lots of noise issues and felt cheap so ended up selling it. I am definitely bothered by them copying newer products, no respect. And is hypocritical to their msging for sure.
@@WithTheGrain Elon is a hack that buys companies, proclaims how cool and with it he is, and proceeds to ruin said companies. He’s also just a bad PERSON, so he’s significantly worse than Behringer because of the size of the platform he has and how many sycophantic fans he has to defend his every shitty action
It's weird that they try to claim this monopoly on affordable synths when korg, novation and arturia all make affordable products that are also original designs.
Thanks for the great talk. Consumers should be well informed, more so if a company wants to control the narrative in a way Behringer does. Pre-ordered a Mini VS Pro months ago, not regretting it, but your critique sure dampen the excitement. :(
I like it that you're basically neutral about your opinions in your reviews that if you're bringing up a negative point, you're not pushing it on to your audience. You're just being a newscaster putting the news out there to the public to form their own opinions out of your video concerning Behringer or any other gear. I love your videos and reviews. The bottom line is that you're not trying to argue or cause an argument. You're just letting us know more about Behringer.
@JorbLovesGear you're very much welcome. I enjoy your videos very much. I'm a gear freak myself and currently own 25 synths myself. 😊 I'm Terry and I love gear. LOL 😊
In my most sincere opinion: Behringer does not make clones, only reverse engineered replicas and is inspired by things from the past. In fact, he does not have a single clone, but he does have good replicas and some are better than a KARP 2600 Odyssey. I will say that no brand has in its catalog replicas as great as the Monopoly, VC340, system 55, system 15, pro-800 module, solina, RD8, RD9, RD6, TD3, Odyssey, MS-1... the deepmind 12 It is a Juno with many things that you would like to have in an original one but its appearance will not remind you of any of them. I'm really convinced that if you use the deepmind 12 like a juno 106, you can make really classic sounds like on a 106. I don't think we have to forget what the word cloning means: Cloning describes the processes used to create an exact genetic replica of another cell, tissue or organism. The copied material, which has the same genetic makeup as the original, is called a clone. The most famous clone was a Scottish sheep named Dolly. So, i base myself on this indisputable evidence. Behringer tried to clone some things and had its legal problems, after that, Behringer showed me that they could make an exact clone of an original with the only difference of putting on their logo, but they didn't let them make any clones, that's also why they never did none. Nostalgia and memories can make us confused about how things are, and believe that it is exact when it is not, and we have all proven that, that a replica does not sound the same as an original because it is a replica, because if If it sounded the same it would be a perfect clone of its original. This is my thought about Behringer and its replicas, incorrectly called “clones”.
did you watch up to the point where i say i dont mind the clones of vintage stuff? or what the improved on? are you forgetting about the clones of other companies in-production gear?
@@JorbLovesGear Everything I say I say as a user of Behringer and other brands, I have replicas and clones, with all the knowledge and cause of each case. I also have originals from the 80s and some replicas like the D-50 and the D-05, the TR-909 and the TR-09 that I gave to my son. Whether you like it or not, Moog makes minimoog clones (they call them reissue), behringer makes minimoog replicas with extra vitamins and Korg makes ARP clones, Behringer makes ARP replicas with extras, Korg makes MS20 clones, behringer makes the MS-20 with extras and in eurorack. Korg doesn't make Monopoly clones yet, but Behringer makes a Monopoly replica with a folding panel. Behringer makes replicas others don't, that's all.
Along wth Benn Jordan's commentary on the same subject this is another great video commentary on Behringer. I would add something for the Wasted potential part: let's not forget the excellent BCR2000 controller.
I think Deadmau5 saying he hated their gear might have been the final trigger for the company that sent them into the tantrum? I don't know I'm just some girl who likes gear and companies who aren't dicks
Great video. Glad you and your compadres are standing up for yourselves. I stand with you and all my favorite synthtubers with the ethics to stand against such blatant bad business. Cheers!
I SO appreciate this video. My first hardware synth a few years ago was the Crave. I knew so little about synths that I didn't know it was a clone of Mother-32. As I learned more and more the last couple years about Behringer I just started hating that thing in my studio. Not to take some big public stance, no one else needed to know that I have it. But I just despise what they are about - ripping off the smaller companies, and just being sh*tty to everyone for no reason. Dude reminds me of Musk or Trump. Just petty and insulting with a giant ego. So I sold my Crave. Moving on. Much happier to support Dreadbox and Make Noise and Erica and others. Happy to pay a little more if I have to.
Crave was my second after Neutron. They’ve all been replaced on my desk but stuck in boxes. I haven’t sold them because I like holding on to things, and I kinda love how they sound and how much I learned with them.
Contrast this name steeling to Yamaha ehich aquaired the Sequential Circuits brand in 1987 when the company went under. Yamaha then returned the sequential name to David Smith at the encouragement of Ikutaro Kakehashi (midi cofather) after Smith found renewed success with his synthesizers in the early 2000s.
Totally agree with every word... There really could have been a different "Behringer" which treated other people with respect and produced products people could love without feeling guilty about it. I own loads of Behringer gear (D, Pro1, System100) but these things are slowing coming out of my rack and being replaced - and there's a reason for that.
Well said Jorb! There is a reason I watch your channel, loopop, bobeats and others like them, integrity in what is posted. Not that all big company's are bad or unethical, I would just rather hear the opinion of a person who just loves gear! I have bought some behringer gear in the past, but honestly I see companies like Moog, struggling to survive and just can't help but think that all this cloning/ copying of there designs has pulled the rug out from under them. I can't support that kind of thing, I'll just have to save a little longer and buy the real thing. Cheers and thanks for your hard work posting interesting and fun content! Hi my name is Bill and I love gear!
The wasted potential is really the horrible part. Here's a massive, vertically-integrated manufacturing powerhouse, and the best they can do is copy designs from much-smaller manufacturers? Behringer should be the Apple of their industry - building products nobody else can make, leveraging their strengths to push the entire synth world forward. But that's not the Behringer we got.
Well done, and good points. I love the fact that they put out discontinued synths. Its great that their prices are low. One of my favorite pieces of kit is the model D. Some of the other stuff they do, cringe. Bottom line for me, im a poor hobbiest, and will probably get more of thier products.
Years ago, I almost bought a Deepmind 6. For the price, it was a crazy device that even I as a college student could afford. Then the Peter Kirn thing happened. Soon after I stopped considering purchasing gear at all. It was shocking and really made me reconsider if I wanted to be in the wider producer community at all
One thing to note: I think the Four Play could be a clone of Mutable's Veils (this is without looking at the specs of Fore Play). I have both a Veils an Inteljel Quad VCA. Im not defending behringer and their lack of creativity, but how many ways can you really create a 4 channel VCA in eurorack and end up with a usable user interface? A lot of the difference between a lot of eurorack modules comes down to one or two features and a paint job.
Well the four play is an aesthetical copy of Intellijel's quad vca which is serious theft. In terms of the functions and handling the Behringer one does not compare well.
@@gunnarwaage4343 have you used both, or are you just making that up because it feels right? The 12 HP Vails by mutable is also almost identical to the intelijel. No one ever talks about that.
@@noisetheorem I have both of them and the four play is a replica of the quad vca. Veils by Mutable Instruments has Absolutely nothing in common with either of them.
Josh - Not sure if you'll see this with the deluge of other comments, but I'll throw this on the pile in hopes you'll respond. First, thanks for making this video. This is an important conversation. We are a community and because our instruments empower us and inspire us, many of us feel a loyalty to brands that enable us to make the music we do. However, as human beings, we need to weigh the ethics and morality of what it takes to make something and whether we choose to support certain practices. I'd like to make a distinction that you touched upon in your video. I don't think of the Deepmind nor the Neutron in the same way that I do the clones. These instruments were designed by Midas (owned by Behringer). They are instruments that have been designed and not copied. Sure, they have taken certain inspirational cues from other instruments, but they are their own synths. And, honestly, remarkable and affordable ones at that! I don't feel the same guilt playing or owning those that I would for some of the others. I think that those two are an important distinction. There's another distinction that I'd like to make that falls in line with your acknowledgement of the Keystep clone (the Swing) and the current Eurorack clones. I don't have as much of an issue with clones of older instruments no longer in production. The Wasp, the Pro One, and the Cat were kind of a cool idea. Granted, they didn't do the development, but I could see the value in making older instruments available again in a more affordable format. However, the K2 (MS-20 clone), and the Crave (Mother 32) and the Edge (DFAM) were clones (or subtle variations) of instruments currently in production. In particular, the Crave and Edge sell for one-third of the cost of a Mother 32 and DFAM. Considering that those two Moogs were part of their most affordable line of instruments, it must have really hurt the company to have their cost-effective attempts get undercut by two-thirds. I truly agree that just because something is legal doesn't make it "right." Furthermore, legal isn't necessarily ethical or moral. It's a pretty low bar for humanity. We should be aiming higher. I would love if we could have a panel at Knobcon next year and discuss these issues intelligently. We can be passionate, but we should focus on universalizing these options and weighing out which truly "work" in a respectful society. Peace, my friend.
Cheers Ted, all very well said. Part of me feels that the market has room for both moog and behringer, but thats mostly thinking about the mdoel D. those price ranges are so different I dont think that anyone is really in the market for one or the other. I hear you with the edge and crave though, i can see someone deciding to save some money for a similar functionality. Thanks as always, missed you at knobcon this year
@@JorbLovesGear I missed you and Matt and many others. I had some conflicts this year, but I plan to prioritize being there next year. I hope we can get in another real conversation or two like we did back in 2021. I agree with your observation on the Model D. In fact, I own one. It was their first synth clone and the price difference was so huge that it was obvious that they were aiming at a different market. I then snagged the Neutron and really loved it. However, it was around that time that I saw the Cork Sniffer video and I took a serious step back. The way Behringer has lashed out at individuals just isn't the way a responsible company should act. I still plan on getting a Deepmind 12D. Again, that instrument is not just a copy of something else. The integration of the powerful effects and built-in Wi-Fi for programming?!?! The instrument was a true game-changer! And especially a fully-articulated 12-voice analog synth (OSCs, Filters, and VCAs) at that price point is still absolutely mind-blowing! But the company needs to behave responsibly and respectfully. I can't in good conscience buy a Crave, or and Edge, or a Swing, or any of the Eurorack modules that are copies of others that are currently in production (or their TipTop rack copy). Again, this is a conversation that needs to take place and we need to look at this in an ethical framework. Kant established the principle of universality. Specifically, if an action cannot be universally applied, then it cannot be justified as ethical. If all synth manufacturers behaved as Behringer, then the industry would fall apart. Without significant R&D and pioneering, and with everyone copying each other, the tools would eventually stagnate and artists would lose interest. Sure, it wouldn't happen overnight, but it would be a slow poisoning that would eventually kill the industry or cripple it to a point that many would lose interest. Anyway, I thank you again for making this video and pointing this conversation in the right direction. I hope to keep in touch with you over the next year and truly can't wait to see you next fall! Long Live Innovation and Long Live Interfaces! Peace my friend.
Probably the grossest part of that SM post was, imo, the implication that "influencers" OWE them cooperation, and deciding not to rent your hard won brand and audience trust to a company whose practices you dislike is somehow deplorable. This cancel outrage crap is ri-doodoo-diculous. It was the free market when you took every design that wasn't nailed down, it's the free market when people turn on you for it. Cuts going both ways. Not to mention, there's an established pattern of behavior on their part that suggests if you work with them, you don't just owe them coverage, but *favorable* coverage.......or else.
Fr, I didn't read any of that stuff until recently and my first reaction was similar to yours-but mixed with laughter at how childishly whiny a floating corporate logo sounded 🙃
@@pennywise5095 That's much easier said than done. It costs a hefty chunk of change just to make a video about a thing without also having to spend (potentially) several thousand dollars on said thing; so that system would just mean that very wealthy people and those who already have a huge audience are the only ones to get a seat at the table. If you like seeing normal artists jam on the new hotness synths every week or two, they have to be paid for the time and artistry they put in on some level, and Gods know Yt isn't sharing much of that sweet sweet ad money. Even discounting the cost of all the recording gear and technical knowhow to work it, you've got learning a new synth front to back, jamming on it till you have an opinion and footage, hours of video editing (which is a whole other specialty), plus all the channel moderating and administration.
Ok, so nuanced comment: I agree with everything you've said about them being bad actors in many situations. I also like the fact that they offer some original equipment at much lower prices than their competitors (Ultragain ADAT interface is awesome). I'd like to point out something specific to open source stuff. When companies (like MakeNoise) release something under an OSI approved license they understand the devil's deal they are taking. They are putting their stuff out there in the hope that it will improve the lives of users and developers with little to no hindrance. They also know that bad actors can profit off this, and they somewhat rely on the good nature / positive PR / game theory aspects of this deal to eventually end up with the overall community being better off. This is something that happens rarely enough in audio world for it to be something that people get riled up about. In general software world it's common. All the big companies are using open source code in their products. Some are good about giving back time and resources, some are just leeches, some are both. Microsoft and Google are currently probably much better than Apple at being good Open Source citizens. I can guarantee that in the music world, Korg, Roland, Native Instruments, Arturia, Yamaha, Ableton, and pretty much any other company you want to name are using open source software in their code bases and providing almost nothing back to the original developers. This is unfortunate, but it's not anything that the original developers didn't see coming. They're operating on the not so implausible belief that, at some point, one of these companies *will* provide some time and effort to improve the code, and they will push it upstream. This would then improve the software for all involved. It's rare, but it happens, and those that develop open source stuff are aware of this fact. They'd prefer it happened much more often, but they're idealists and they're generally happy with whatever they can get. Disclaimer: Almost all the code I write is open source, and almost all the code-bases I submit changes to are open source. I don't do this for money, I do it because I want nice things to exist.
I really wish there would be some companies making open source products and firmwares. Often I think to myself that some gear has so much more potential than is used, because companies often focus on churning out new products instead of supporting and improving existing ones. Korgs logue SDK was a nice discovery for me in that regard, but there are so much more opportunities. Let alone MIDI controllers could benefit vastly from this. For example, the build quality and interface of the Arturia Keystep is wonderful - yet it's actually capabilities are still quite limited by the firmware. I actually recently discovered that there is a cool custom firmware for the Elektron Machinedrum (while dreaming/searching of a way to make polyphonic midi sequencing happen on the Elektron Model:Samples). I remember there being a small hack for the OP-1 too. Another very honorable mention is the TherapSID from Twisted Electrons: the entire firmware is open source! I understand that this is probably harder and more risky for a company, but ultimately I hope things will go in that direction. All of this reminds me of the videogame console homebrew scenes, where people show again and again that there's always so much more to gain from products if customers truly can own their hardware (which mostly happens unwillingly from companies perspective of course). edit: Oh I forgot to mention trash80 (maker of the dirtywave m8). That project shows how much can be achieved my individuals.
OK I just wanna say one thing. I love your videos. I watch all your stuff I’m a huge fan, but this cloning instruments goes back to Guitar’s, drums, pianos bases, I mean, the list goes on .There’s so many companies out there that makes or make guitars that look like other legacy style guitars .so for me this is been going on forever I get it And I do own some Behringer stuff. And is it good quality no and does it sound amazing yes. I guess my point is why are we so concerned about what Behringer is doing and not so concerned about how other legacy companies a price gouging people because it’s so-called Handmade? I don’t know I’ll just leave it at that great video by the way.
Yesss, I had a larger "Pedals are built on clones" etc section that I cut down into just the comparison of 3 different clones, and after I highlighted that i cant even evaluate clones on their merits anymore, it felt redundant
this is what wikipedia says. " In July 2019, Gibson CEO JC Curleigh returned the Oberheim trademark and IP to Tom Oberheim as "a gesture of goodwill to the musical instrument industry." the man is cloning business decisions jorb!
Good catch! Based on what I could find it seems like Gibson owned the brand name in the US (until 2019), whereas Behringer owned the brand name in other territories (until 2021). Thanks for pointing out that interesting piece of the story 👍
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience- great video! I’ll add a few thoughts here to the mix. First, I completely agree that copying products from small companies sucks… whereas just making nice modern replicas of vintage synths can be valuable to the music scene. I really love the MonoPoly and was considering buying the B- version until I saw the copy of Maths. … It would be one thing if B- reached out to these companies and offered to pay a commission or partner to leverage their manufacturing empire to make the products available at lower prices. Open source modules like Mutable are another topic. They are open- but makers like OS from Expert Sleepers have the decency to reach out and ask permission to include modules like Plaits and Rings in Disting EX. And I think that’s what this whole conversation comes down to… community, culture, and decency. I too would love to see B- put their massive resources towards innovation, and towards building a better culture rather than copying the most profitable ideas of other people.
Love the conclusion at the end. Community, culture, decency. It's really an enclosure of the commons, I suppose. We've been keeping the resources open for the community, and now someone comes along putting-up fences like "well I can, so I shall".
You endorsed the Roland SH4D. I bought one on account of your review. The SH4D was terrible. Thankfully Andertons gave me a full refund as I sent it back within a month. Wow, I guess Roland take care of you?
@@JorbLovesGearconfusing reaction. I respect your opinions but the SH4D review seems biased. Like a promotional advertisement. Grow up! Wow. The SH4D is terrible
Hey Jorb, still love your work. I was not trying to antagonise. I was extremely disappointed with the SH4D & I invested on your besotted vid. Incidentally, you’ve got enormous balls going in hard & heavy at Behringer.
Agree with most of your views on this controversy. The one area which I disagree with is the clones of open sourced technology. When Mutable released the designs of it's Eurorack modules as open source they intentionally made it allowable for others to use the technology from those modules in their own products. This is at the core of open source, it is how it was designed to operate. Whether Behringer complies with the terms of that open source licence is another question. Behringer has a lot to answer for. But using open sourced designs is quite literally how it is meant to work.
You’ve made a hugely important distinction here that many in this conversation miss. With some of the clones they’ve made (call them 'type 1'), I believe they genuinely have done the market a service by resurrecting a long-out-of-production unit. Take for example the CAT, WASP or even the MonoPoly. These haven’t been produced in many years, so the original manufacturer doesn’t suffer any ‘loss’ by them re-making it. They reintroduced these long-gone and quirky units to a whole new generation and that’s very cool! In the middle you have the borderline cases ('type 2' units), where they are cloning something that is either still in production or at least could be (Model D, 2600, Pro-1, K2, etc). I justify owning these by the fact that I would never own the unit by the real maker because I could never afford it, so admittedly maybe I’m part of the problem there. But on the other end of this ('type 3' clones), look at Intellijel and Mutable Instruments’ modular units. Not only are these companies currently taking on all the R&D risk and making their livings selling these, but if the cost of entry to buying them is too high for you, you can get the ‘virtual’ versions through Softube that are licensed and return profits to those companies. So there is no excuse for this type of IP-theft, and I do hope they are held legally accountable for it. Then there are units which are possibly ‘original’ (although it is arguable). The funny thing is, these are my favorite productions by Behringer too (e.g. the Neutron and Deepmind). I think the best solution is to focus on this area, completely STOP making ‘type 3’ units, and try to work with the manufacturers selling the much-more-expensive ‘type 2’ units rather than against them. Maybe that would clean away much of the ‘dirty’ image Behringer currently has. And please continue to go nuts making more 'type 1' resurrection clones, I love it!
I have many thoughts, but ultimately typing them out feels like an effort in futility. Pro-B peeps vs Anti-B peeps is like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Best to just stay out of the way for the most part.
I own a lot of Behringer gear for the same reason I buy generic cookies at the food store, but I sincerely hope they fix the issues raised in this video. Even just stopping direct clones of modern hardware to focus more on Deepmind-style designs could help fix their image and eventually land more Behringer gear into the rigs of influential musicians. The sound / builld quality are already there, IMHO.
This is what I'd like to see too. They have proven they can make original designs inspired by classic gear while being unique, that are excellent. But they also know that people want things that are 1:1 recreations. I'm not sure that they are much worse than some other big gear companies. They are just more public about their questionable practices. That keystep clone is pretty brazen. Arturia are not a Korg or a Roland and they charge reasonable prices for the quality products
100% agree! Arturia keystep clone was the one that made me go: I am never buying behringer. That product is just so disgusting. There are hundreds of midi controllers on the market, yet every brand has their own design and vision about what is a good midi controller. Then there is Behringer who takes the most successful product and steals the design. That is just pathetic and should not be allowed. Do your own R&D.
@@lundsweden For synths people want that signature sound, so I understand that. What is the reason to make a exact copy of a midi controller? It doesn't have a sound, it is just a utility tool. They could have changed the shape of buttons, layout, enclosure or do anything at all but they deliberately made it as close as possible to the original so that people know it is a clone. They want to ride on the success of other products instead of trying to make a new one. Also software and hardware are very different things. I wouldn't be happy if Arturia made a physical Jun6 clone that would be 100% identical to the original. But well they won't do it, they have their own unique hardware synths.
@@cirisirpula152 Companies outside the synth world have been making clones for years. In the phone world everyone thinks every manufacturer copied the iPhone, but the LG Prada looked similar and was released first.
I got the Behringer Edge and it changed my game. I appreciate them. I do feel dirty using their gear though. But I don't think they are evil. I like them. I like being able to use gear I can't afford and esoteric synths I don't want to pay massive bucks for.
Basically Uli Behringer is the Elon Musk of synths. the stealing; the gaslighting; the trolling; the antisemitism (and let's say dubious politics); the god/superhero complex; it's all there.
Behringer enabled me to have multiple tracks when I was young and broke. I was dissapointed that those tracks had SO MUCH noise I even felt ripped off. I wouldnt mind playing with a clone and seeing what thats all about but, you get what you pay for. I feel like most of us went through it. We just leave the Behringer gear to the new guys. If I saw someone about to buy a mixer I would stop them first and be like yooooo, does line noise matter to you? hahaah. Cool vid, real perspective. Thanks.
That's probably a good way to look at all of it: live and learn. I got into gear as Behringer's reputation for lousy quality assurance was wearing off, but fortunately I found a used Mackie mixer anyway. I've only bought two synths and an octave pedal from them, and I may buy a few more. 😅 The less I indulge the G.A.S., the less I'll feel the need to muck around with Behringer…
Behringer is not the only one who "copied" the open source Mutable stuff. There is a reason why Emilie made them OPEN SOURCE. That means it's free for all. I don't understand why everyone gets their panties in a bunch over it. The only condition Mutable had is not to use their trade dress and trademarks. Which fair game Behringer respected. Other than that, it's fair game. Open source means anyone can make their version of it. Express permission from the original developer. So what gives?
Unlike Benn Jordan, I personally dont think the Peter Kirn cork sniffer image is anti-sematic. But it was still a dick move by Behringer. Hope they stick to clones of stuff that the patents expired for and bring some new proructs out too.
Yeah, the social media stuff is cringe and the ripping off modern products sucks... But.. I'm still getting that grandmother clone when it comes out. Paying 800 more for the Moog logo, a keyboard and a spring... not in today's economy. Love you Jorb, keep it up.
Wouldn’t exist if Moog hadn’t designed it. You are voting with your wallet that only the manufacturing is worth paying for, and actually creating something new has no value.
God, I love Uli!!!
Pinning this, good luck 😭😂😭😂😭😂
His name is Uli and he loooooooves gear.
God doesn't love Uli though!!
But Roland told me you loved them better?
On first glance Uli is ticking all the boxes
One thing to also note - Behringer has been difficult with retailers as well. Only super-sized retailers are permitted to sell the gear only if they carry the full product line, which is impossible for many smaller shops.
I've noticed also, but if I didn't agree with Behringer or dislike them I wouldn't know
Are you a small shop owner?
That’s what Gibson was doing to independently owed retailers in the mid 2000s. They told these retailers that if they wanted to remain an authorized Gibson dealer, then they had to also carry their custom shop models that only dentists and lawyers can afford
This was a strategic move on Gibson’s part to rid themselves of these smaller dealers… that way they could sell out completely to guitar center. And the rule stands to this day - if you want a Gibson guitar, you must get it from guitar center, or it’s subsidiaries, like musicians friend
@@Steve-of8zoBehringer??? You mean… “boog”??? 😂
Here in Chile, Argentina and Perú Behringer where easily available on biggest and smalller retail shops
It's time for Teenage Engineering to release expensive clones of Behringer instruments.
Roland put OP-1's Tombola in the SH-4d. Why? I don't know.
Which non-cloned Behringer products do you have in mind?
Why not! Flattery will get you every where!
This is so insanely well-said. I've been working on an essay about a specific Behringer product and you so perfectly said what I've been looking for the words for. Bravo.
Hands down the best Behringer commentary video I have seen.
Appreciate that, cheers
"Why are you like this?"
Jorb's observations about their absurd attempts to frame themselves as underdogs standing against the fuddy duddy establishment are keen, and it's especially bizarre when they attack the commentariat. People who examine gear for a living are perforce insiders, sure, but ffs behringer is a multinational corporation.
I find it weird that a massive corporation is painting themselves as a small indie going against massive companies when its the complete opposite
I think it's silly because artists constantly paint themselves as working class heroes constantly, even when coming from the upper or middle class. So it's almost like Behringer has an obligation to follow.
Why is that weird? Every business practices BS marketing. Its how they make money bro. Corporates....
Newsflash, literally almost every little 'indie'.
My favorite synth is the Sequential Take 5. That’s all I want to say.
I LOVE mine, too! I recently got rid of a Prophet Rev 2, because between the Take 5 and the Pro 800 (and to a lesser degree, the Pro 1), I felt I had too much I liked in that territory better - the Take 5 is so fucking versatile, and both it and the 800 have a better raw sound. I'm not saying the Rev 2 is a bad synth by any means, I did love it, and sitting down and making patches on it before the buyer came to pick it up almost had me changing my mind, but I think of it as a good bread and butter synth for people who don't own dozens of other synths. I ended up using the funds toward a Trigon 6, which I am SO in love with - it just sounds so smooth, and I haven't been able to get a bad sound out of it. Sequential is truly a great company.
I can justify things like the Poly D (and the upcoming Pro-16, though that's a tougher one because I'm such a Sequential fanboy, and I have actually been considering buying a real Prophet 5/10 Rev 4) because I don't think anybody who already planned to spend $5,000+ on a real deal minimoog is really going to be swayed by it - for those people, nothing else but the real thing would do - nor would most people considering buying it likely be willing to spend that kind of money for one anyway (to me, while the minimoog is a classic, I wouldn't have ever spent $5,000 to own such a basic synth, so if there'd never been a Poly D, nobody would have made a cent more off me - I just would have to live without it).
The keybed on the Take 5 is soo much better than the older Sequential synths. And it sounds soo nice compared to the Rev2.
I think it's because the presets on the Take 5 are drenched with effects unlike on the Rev2 which to my ear have one or two effects layered.
@@raul0ca unlike many synths, I’ve never once regretted my T5 purchase!
@@RishPanjeetJrI didn't say I regretted it. It's an amazing synth. I think when we start our synth journey we try out different things and occasionally change things out. Don't hate me when I say I'm selling it to try out a Korg Nautilus haha
Subject matter of this video completely aside, integrity seems to have gone missing in the world or 'people/companies/etc.' jump in and out of integrity as it suits them. Watching your video shows you have integrity. No judgies, putting forth how you feel, in an open and honest format/forum. Thank you. Never forget who 'You' are.
Common sense and consideration also..
Amazing video Jorg!
I’m from South Africa - it’s often alienating to watch the discourse surrounding Behringer dominated by people with way more disposable income.
It’s so refreshing to hear your very balanced, empathetic stance.
Separating their ‘clones’ of vintage from their ‘clones’ of pieces still in production.
I really agree with everything you’ve said.
And as someone who builds and has used open source designs because I couldn’t afford to buy. behringer using that narrative of democratising is heartbreaking.
I am a poor person, sometimes Behringer is a needed evil. I wanted an 808, that was fully analog.....nothing besides the Behringer was even close to affordable.
@@fortheloveofnoise Is a cheap hardware 808 a "need"?
@@warpigs330 Benn Jordan makes the argument that it's not; and I absolutely agree; but I have people getting at my throat on reddit for "wanting to gatekeep what is a need and that you don't need to make music anyway". I'm a bit tired of this shit.
Contrast Behringer with a company like Warm Audio, and you'll see a stark difference in two companies known for similar market positions. Difference is one is thoughtful about what they copy.
This issue of corporate greed is a problem and not just in the synth world. That's why I commend you for taking a stance as we all should against corporate overreach.
Red Means Recording had a great take on this. Instead of accepting (or demanding) to keep the demo unit, he suggested that a flat monetary fee would be paid to the reviewer, exactly for the reasons you listed; (time, cost of materials, etc).
Thanks for the heads up, the info from Ben, BoBeats and you. People I actually trust, is enough for me to know that I wont deal with a company going after people, suing them, and making products using other peoples hard work.
i know the people that get weird and psycho when you call out behringers nonsense it makes no sense to me.
I think your stance is really how a lot of people feel about Behringer. Most of us want to support the good aspects but then they keep pulling these stunts and people are becoming aware of their history of unethical business practices. Very objective and well thought out Jorb.
🙏🙏Much appreciated fam, thanks for watching
The Minority feel about Behringer you mean.
"unethical business practices" the vast majority of all corporations including ones that make Synths have awful practices they just hide them better than Behringer
This (allegedly) is an awesome video🤟🏻 intelligent points balanced with empathy. Rock on bro❤️
Thanks king, much appreciated
Well this is some refreshing content! Very well thought out and articulated, and brave of you to form an opinion on this and not just do a news post about it.
cheers, thanks for listening
I'm sorry to hear you have some negative feelings when you think about your deepmind videos. When I saw your videos I was so amazed at how good your programming was and how well you understood the synth. So much so that i bought a deepmind12. Anyway, regardless of anything, your deepmind12 work is awesome and I thank you for it.
I'm still proud of them, and I consider that very high praise. Cheers 🙏🙏
I've never heard him have anything but still have praise for the Deepmind. He even says in this vid a few times that he holds it in high esteem. If anything, he's saying that it's so good that that is the kind of thing that Behringer SHOULD be focusing on. I mean, they ALREADY have an awesome multi-effects unit in that thing, so why aren't they incorporating it in other units (other than the XR-18 and X-32 I mean, which are awesome)?
@@JorbLovesGear I discovered you because of your deepmind videos. Incredibly helpful, and I still refer back to them from time to time.
You inspired me to get my DeepMind 12. I bought your Juno 106 bank for the DeepMind 12. It’s still an exciting synth. What a shame that corporate greed and unscrupulousness could taint what should be a good thing for everyone. I’m looking to trade in gear for a new purchase, and my local retailer told me they distance themselves from Behringer. I don’t blame them, but again-what a shame, because the DeepMind 12 is a good piece of affordable kit that you did good work on.
But keep doing you. Kudos, brother.
🙏🙏🙏
Jorb gettin spicy! Lemme grab my popcorn 🍿 - jk, I appreciate how well thought out this was. This might be one of the most well articulated videos on why Behringer rubs so many the wrong way. "just because it's legal doesn't mean it doesn't suck" WELL SAID.
I'd also like to point out that their actions backfire in that they are taking that random, disorganized diaspora of synth youtubers and is slowly bringing them together.
good point, the union meetings are about to heat up
I've owned a handful of behringer gear.
The only thing they've made that I think is worth owning is the deep mind.
My disdain for this company has only grown exponentially.
That said, I'm not exactly sure what I'll do when their Jupiter clone is finished. Probably won't buy it but it'll be interesting to see how they build it.
Unless that was their plan all along!! Cue Uli Facebook post in ten years taking credit for building the RUclips synth community by consolidating hate toward his company 😂😂😂
They're also shooting themselves in the foot if their business model puts the companies they steal from out of business.
I love what Behringer has been trying to do with making synthesizers affordable... but this whole social media thing has really lost me. They need to sack whoever has been making these decisions on their press and marketing.
yeah, I hopped to the comments to say this exact thing. It's really frustrating, because I love that synths/music are more accessible to the masses, but the behavior of the company is a problem.
sack Uli Behringer? 😛
Unfortunately it looks like you need to sack Uli, because things he has been saying personally track a little too closely to the whole shit show even if it isn't a 100% coverage.
And nobody has the power to sack Uli.
It starts right at the top
There's plenty of options for affordable synths without dealing with such a terrible, aggressive, dishonest company.
I think a bit of commentary missing is addressing the fact that regardless of their motivations, they make replicas of vintage hardware that is otherwise not affordable and do a damn good job of it, most of the time. Of course there is a market for the UB-Xa, not many people would fork out $5000 for a reproduction or an actual vintage model.
I specifically say that this was a good thing in abstract, classic circuits being more available.
@@JorbLovesGearyeah this dude didn't watch the video or zoned out for that section clearly
Nicely set out. I don't like the idea of the synth community being intentionally divided over this.We already have enough divisions. Analogue is better than digital.
🍿
Ooooo bitchy cats ! 😂😂😂 But your right !
People do this with everything and it drives me crazy. Saying one thing is better than something else. A less violent way to say it is “I like analogue better than digital” nobody can effectively argue with what you like.
@@mattuskamusicAre you developing @markgriffiths5122's argument further or are you complaining about his last statement being absolutistic? Because, actually, I think "analog is better than digital" was just an example for unhealthy divisions, not his opinion.
sigh. It was a joke. I talk seriously about not dividing the community and then make a sweeping hack comment that undercuts that statement. I thought by now everyone realised that the "analogue vs digital" & "hardware vs software" arguments were shown to be pointless back in the 2000s if not before and now have achieved the status of a in community joke.
I'm old... I've been messing around with audio gear for a long time and it's often been Behringer because that was what I could afford. It's always let me down.... always.
The older rack kit, compressors, the ada8000, etc, that had cheap PSUs which would get fried.
The digital mixer DDX3216 (genuinely a really nicely design unit) that failed and when sent for repair most of the capacitors weren't soldered in
The brand new XR18 which literally went up in smoke the night before a gig
The DI boxes which seem to made out of egg shells
The euro series analogue mixers that usually had dead channels out of the box
The TD-3 that didn't output any sound.....
The X32 Racks that barely last a year - one organisation i worked for went through so many they didn't even bother with warranty, just gave up and bought something that worked.
Behringer's gear is bad. the quality of their manufacturing and QA is bad. But that isn't nearly as bad as the blatant ripping off. They've done this since inception. Early compressors were cheap clones of small companies that couldn't afford to sue. It all leaves a very bad taste and it's upsetting these fundamentally terrible business practices have served Behringer well enough to be able to buy up all the big names.
I disagree to a certain point. I have an x32-2nd gen for 7 yrs and it’s never been serviced and it was used a lot when I purchased. I have x32c, m32c, 2- s-16 stage boxes, 2-dl 32 stage boxes and 2- sd16 stage boxes. All still work and have not let me down. Now, I have read multiple comments that the service department is total crap. Turn around time is horrible etc.. Never experienced it yet but if gear starts going south, I will be switching to Allen & heath gear. It’s cheap and I made my money back on investment so I can’t complain
@@rossberning6538yeah and that’s all perfectly fair. It sounds like you’ve had a great run with that gear and I doubt it owes you anything. I seem to have been remarkably unlucky. Of course the other problem with B’s gear is the whole race to the bottom… everyone else has to compete so they either cut costs or, like Midas, end up getting bought out by Behringer
Thank you for presenting this all in a rational, measured, and non-antagonistic/non-adversarial manner, and for staying above the fray. I have my own opinions, most of which I'll keep to myself (not because I agree or disagree, but because I simply don't want to get into it). But, I will say that I've felt the same way about "the clones" for some time. Cheers!
it was the sync clap at the end for me... oh and the content of the video was on point too.
HA, cheers Ken, appreciate you watching.
I watched Deadringer make mistake after mistake for years (ever since they unsuccessfully sued DSI and 20 random people on GS for posting their opinions back in 2017). Frankly things haven't improved since then. Spot on video and great job of laying out the facts surrounding all the controversy. Liked and subscribed. Full disclosure, I own an MS-01 and love it.
Great chat about a rough topic. You hit the nail on the head with part 3. And the same goes for all the companies over seas that are making bootleg versions of other items (i deal with mics a lot). If you can put that much effort into putting together a product to match something EXACTLY, how much more (or less) effort would it take to just tweak the design a touch to make the product better or just different, as I don't really believe in "better" or "worse". Most of the bootleg companies stay under the radar but BGR wants to inflate their chest and pound on it like they "did something" we should all be in awe of. The DIY community has been cloning for decades and its a bit of a written and unwritten rule of sorts that you don't clone, then try to commercially release something. It's a shame that company that has all the potential in the world has decided to take a narcissistic approach to doing business with the world. Thanks for the video!
Awesome video Jorb. It can be a trap to play into the sensational discourse around the company and you avoid all that perfectly. Straightforward commentary and I love how it set the ground rules up front. We watch your channel because of your passion for gear and it inspires us. There’s nothing inspirational about hyperbole from a company claiming to change the world. Thank you and keep on inspiring us!
Very much to the point. You are great in articulating your opinion and I totally agree 👏 Thanks for taking the time to inform people. I hope this will lead to more people choosing to spend their money to support passionate companies and individuals that invest in R&D.
When I was in elementary school, I was a Lego elitist. I couldn’t stand Mega Bloks. One day, I was complaining about Mega Bloks to a fellow Lego enthusiast, and his response blew my 3rd-grade mind. He said “You should love Mega Bloks, you should be thankful for them! If they didn’t exist, Lego would be the only one and they could charge any price they want!”
I don’t know enough about Behringer to judge their business strategy and practices, and I can’t comment on the quality of their products. However, from the strict perspective of a consumer under capitalism, their existence is a positive influence on me. At the very least, their cheaper alternative products incentivize the next original product to be more affordable.
The real issue here is capitalism, it’s always capitalism
I know it is very popular to talk about the virtues of competition, but I don't believe it is that simple. In lots of areas competition actually hurts innovation. That Lego could charge whatever they wanted if there was no Mega Blocks simply isn't true. In Norway where I am from there was no Mega Blocks when I was a kid. Lego didn't charge whatever they wanted. If you charge too much you wont make any sales. Even a monopolist cannot charge whatever they want. Especially not for something like a toy which isn't a requirement for anyone to live.
In Norway we had several state run monopolies which go privatized. There was pros and cons to that. The prices dropped but so did the innovation. They could no longer maintain large R&D departments which was possible due to higher prices. With competition prices got pushed down too much to be able to afford expensive R&D.
You can see similar with the Apple clones in the 90s. It didn't lead to innovation. It lead to lower prices but it almost sank Apple as a company. The clones didn't innovate much. And you can see this with modern Apple. They charge a premium but they are also more innovative than their PC competitors.
Back to Synth modules. These tiny outfits of may just one or two people making innovative modules do this as a passion. It isn't like they are creaming the market. When you are a small outfit producing units by hand you cannot sell cheap to make ends meet. A company like Behringer is driving these little guys out of business or hindering them from growing into anything of size. The money they loose is money they could have spent on R&D or expanding.
@@erikengheim1106 I'm also Norwegian and Lego was and is insanely expensive. Not the "random coloured blocks" packs, maybe, but everything else.
I love how no one in the comments seemed to bother watching the video up to the point in which you categorized the different knockoffs and just thinks you're saying any knockoff is bad.
😅That's how it feels, appreciate the acknowledgement of it
They could sit on discontinued equipment and make their money. There is no reason to steal current IP and attempt to trademark the last names of creator’s literal names. Makes me sick.
They are indeed assholes. People who work in their “city” are overworked, in poor conditions.
@@sub-jec-tivThat argument comes up a lot but without the ability to compare to other companies' working conditions is worthless and seems biased.
@@sub-jec-tiv Yeah, just like almost everybody else who works.. And even more so in third world countries - which nearly every western company exploits somehow
Here's a bucket to hurl into!
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As a poor mudician, I dont mind them "stealing" current IPs that I could never buy lol
Great video, I like that the volca sample is just there chillin
Make Noise Maths - £289. Behringer Abacus - £99.99. Personally I am totally fine with this, modular is really expensive and that is a high barrier for entry.
Yes there is VCV rack, but I think the argument of 'oh theres free software' isn't really applicable when discussing pure hardware. Majority of modular users/enthusiasts are here for the hardware and hardware only.
The purists with money to burn will always buy Maths and won't even think of 'tainting' their rack with the 'inferiour' Behringer clone.
But people like me with less income to burn on setting up a small rack, the price difference is huge and enables me to set up a rack with some of the big hitters (expensive) and still have the bank to include one/two of the clones, it's thanks to this that i'm even able to experience these modules as setting up a full rack of the OG stuf, even a small one is way too expensive (£800 plus).
"To steal": to take (the property of another) without right or permission. To present or use (someone else's words or ideas) as one's own.
"To counterfeit": to imitate something authentic, with the intent to steal, destroy, or replace the original, for use in illegal transactions, or otherwise to deceive individuals into believing that the fake is of equal or greater value than the real thing.
Let's call a cat a cat. Thank you Jorb for expressing your opinion. We can still see, from your precautions, the fear of the repression from B.
I too draw the line at Behringer’s clones of current products. And by current I don’t mean Minimoogs and 808s, but Keysteps, Mother 32s, Maths, Marbles, and what have you. Behringer’s clones of these products serve only to stifle innovation.
With all that said I have a Model D, a Pro-1 and an RD-8, and these are products that I applaud Behringer for bringing to market. Affordable clones of these defunct-but-desirable designs have been low-hanging fruit for synth makers for a long time, and since nobody owns their designs any more, I applaud Behringer for making them available for realistic prices.
As for the drama between Behringer and “influencers”, I think Uli’s crew have painted themselves into a corner. When Behringer attempts to rob companies like Arturia (did anyone really think the Keystep was too expensive?) as well as Moog and boutique manufacturers like Make Noise, how can anybody in the synth community be expected to think that’s cool?
It’s a step too far, RUclipsrs have pushed back in droves, and now Behringer is making up stories about a lack of free evaluation gear being the cause of the lack of coverage of their gear.
If Behringer really “hears” us, they should discontinue their products that directly copy the small businesses that are innovating. Crave, Edge, Swing, and other products that challenge our ethics have got to stop. In time, maybe the influencers would even forgive them and, faced with some new compelling original products, start reviewing their gear again.
Ive been following and admiring their products for years, and couldn't understand their recent posts. thanks for enlightening me!
I like my pro-800. finally an affordable poly I want. It may not be an exact clone of the real one but it sounds close for me enough as my first Prophet sound goes and on a budget. I would not spent +2k on a synth anyway.
Sometimes B- does good work. For instance, the Neutron is quite innovative and is not a clone from other company’s engineers. But it’s hard to look past a lot of their bullshit, like how they treated Peter Kirn.
@@doctorsynth1 Synth wise, I think B has done an outstanding job! There is quite no other company that has achieved so much synth recognition in such a short time and quality with their synths that are solid at a given price point. Sound wise, it's a matter of opinion. Are they clones? Not to me! If you going to make a human clone, for example it better look ~99% the same (preferably identical in every aspect) Per definition it's not the same. I could list a dozen of reasons why I don't see them as clones rather simply inspired by originals.
Every mayor company have some questionable moral issues, many are covered up by lawyers.
We could argue: the reason our country is in economics/social turmoil is because we allowed the corporations to dictate our life to us. They pretend to be our unelected government right now. Do they have morals? Hell no!
I agree Behringer should keep their customer relation department in check
but we should allow freedom of speech and expression too as long as we doesn't
infringe of rights of others and there are repercussions for everting we do. Being butthurt doesn't qualify. We created a nation of snowflakes that need their safe space. Finally, we do need a good laugh in a life that is getting almost impossible to be sane....end of my rambling.
Their Pro 1 & 800 are great, as is their rare synth cloning stuff, but it's their core practice that's dogshit and dirty. If you can deal with the fact that they're trying to put small modular businesses out of business as a wing of their brand, and do direct price cut rips of other peoples products, then the unobtainable clones they do are fine. But you're supporting that business model
@@robertcrystals We have the power, we have the say, they'll listen when their pockets hurt. Stop buying the stuff that doesn't feel right to you...for whatever reason it will sent the message. Problem is us not caring and allowing the corporations run our life as I have said before. The corporate mind set is obliged to its shareholders not an average synth joe, morals not withstanding. we need to WTFU before is too late. I am speaking generally here not only about B.
@@doctorsynth1 I don't buy synths because Behringers politics, I buy them to make music. Edge for instance has MIDI, moog doesn't and has more features it's 3 times less. I'm no Behringer fan boy, I own many other brands but if something is good I'll buy it. GO to your local Grocery store and they will have their own brand that's almost 100% identical to the name brand for much lower price, BUT When it comes to Synths and Audio equipment, seems like everything needs to be original. Plus why isn't Roland releasing TR-08 Analog? That's what the people want instead they release some boutique garbage. I own the TR-8s and the MC-707 and I love them. But People want a reissue of the CLASSIC TR-08, Behringer did it twice with the RD-8 and RD-9
Yeeeaaahhh... After Ben & Jorb's recent videos... I don't think I'll ever pick up Behringer gear.
Honestly makes me feel dirty even owning one, bought a model d a while ago before I knew about any of this… might move it on.
I’m going to get a behringer model d as soon as I can. That being said, I’m not as excited or proud to do it, the way I was when I got my Nymphes, or my Drum Brute. Being a working class musician, who does play professionally actually puts you in a weird spot in terms of gear acquisition. It would take me 100 shows to pay for a mini moog. I’d love to but, oof.
"I want affordable tools for my _job"_ hits differently than "I want affordable toys for a hobby that _might_ become a career," which is how most B-fans sound.
The frustrating thing I feel that is missing from a lot of B discourse is this: you don’t hate Behringer, you hate capitalism. The point about B allowing smaller companies to take risks and then swooping in and pricing them out of the market happens in so many industries. It is literally the purpose of a company to do this simple and basic tactic! In publicly traded companies, leadership is contractually and lawfully obligated to make decisions that benefit the board and the shareholders. If, for example, a CEO had market research in their hands clearly showing high sustainable demand for clones (within the boundaries of trademark restrictions), they would be lawfully obligated to push for ramping up of clone production. Behringer is not a publicly traded company so things likely work a bit differently, but the concept is the same.
Or to put things in a more positive way: “You don’t love your favorite synth company, you love a small collection of product designers that work for a soulless shell that exists to extract profit from its workers 😅”
Not only does Uli not show up to Superbooth but he doesn’t even send minions to superbooth, because they likely would face major hostility. That should tell you how the modular designer community feels about Behringer.
I hope this goes viral, well played
And don't ever ask anything related to an issue with their gear on their FB pages or their employee Jamie Monroe comes and tells you that you are wrong or to not ask questions about your user experience.. my RD-8 gets to 130°f on the top after 30-45 minutes of playing it and all i wanted to know was if this is common or do i have a faulty product.
Great breakdown of the whole saga, my dude. Hoping “Jorb” isn’t trademarked out from under you now. 😅
oh my god new fear unlocked
@@JorbLovesGearVictimized by Behr-anger.
Oh no - the Jorb Kirnsniffer. Please do a colab with Mr. Kirn on a pedal and let Arturia manufacture it, then play the DM12 through it. Sorry that was silly. I couldn’t help myself.
@@JorbLovesGearJorbSniffer ©™
19:12 is such a great point. Stellar video mate.
Brilliant commentary Jorb. I was excited to be able to buy the Model D clone for such a great price. It highlighted the OTT price Moog charge. At the time this seemed like a win. Unfortunately after a year it just stopped working. Sadly I binned it because I wasn’t aware of the three year warranty. I have never had another piece of gear fail this way. Few of us can just go out and casually buy any synth, regardless of the price bracket it falls into. 99% of us have to budget and save for each purchase, even if it is a Behringer synth. The £299 I paid for the Boog is still not a disposable amount so the purchase was a false economy.I hope UB watched your vid to the end. Behringer could be a great synth company. For some reason they choose to be the opposite whilst allowing other manufacturers to take all the risks. Playing and owning synths is a pleasurable experience. I don’t and won’t contribute to the profits of a Behringer because my conscience would get in the way. Owning a huge company and being very wealthy must be great but when you look at what behaviours typify Behringer it wouldn’t be something I would attach my name to.
glad I learned that lesson in 2003 with a behringer mixer, never again after three replacement power supplies failed due to a bad component in the mixer.
@@screamingstrings76 hear hear. Long before any of this synth drama stuff, I saw someone trying to fix just such a mixer... he found-out it was so cheap inside he'd be better-off buying a whole new decent mixer, rather than trying to upgrade the Behringer's components.
Well presented. Your points were valid. I'm one who was thankful for the Behringer clones, as my hobbyist budget would not extend to restored original synths. In fact, I sold my original Korg MS10 and bought the K-2 for the improved connectivity and form factor. The Keystep clone was a gut punch, as it was uncalled for. The System 55 clones got me into Eurorack, so again I appreciate clones of unaffordable systems, but I totally agree that sniping current issue modules like Maths is likely to hurt the Behringer brand. My last purchase was the Moog Studio, because I was willing to spend the extra to have the original, rather than the Behringer copies. The Swing 32 was a big part of that decision.
You gotta remember companies like Sony, LG, Ibanez, Canon, Nikon, etc all copied until they created their own exciting products. They're most likely not going to be copying forever.
I don't think behringer is using clones as a chance to get established, if that's what you're saying.
Theyre already huge, it's their strategy, not a stepping stone.
Plus their only original synth, the deepmind was ~7 years ago, and they don't seem interested in that type of development anymore.
True, I guess I forget how big they actually are since I don't follow them too much in their many other avenues.. I owned a deepmind which I honestly enjoyed but had lots of noise issues and felt cheap so ended up selling it. I am definitely bothered by them copying newer products, no respect. And is hypocritical to their msging for sure.
glad I watched the whole thing. thank you for all your videos 🙏🏽
Behringer is the Elon Musk of the music gear industry. And I’m saying that as derogatory as I can
Hey there's a difference. Nobody actually liked Uli ever. Musk was genuinely popular and liked up until it turned out he has been a butt all along.
Why did Elon turn out to be a "butt"? Do develop guys, don't settle for half statements only
Elon actually develops new tech.
@@WithTheGrain Sits there and develops? No he buys companies which have tech and then tells the world how cool he is.
@@WithTheGrain Elon is a hack that buys companies, proclaims how cool and with it he is, and proceeds to ruin said companies. He’s also just a bad PERSON, so he’s significantly worse than Behringer because of the size of the platform he has and how many sycophantic fans he has to defend his every shitty action
Nice man - you always hit things just the right way!
It's weird that they try to claim this monopoly on affordable synths when korg, novation and arturia all make affordable products that are also original designs.
Thanks for the great talk.
Consumers should be well informed, more so if a company wants to control the narrative in a way Behringer does.
Pre-ordered a Mini VS Pro months ago, not regretting it, but your critique sure dampen the excitement. :(
I like it that you're basically neutral about your opinions in your reviews that if you're bringing up a negative point, you're not pushing it on to your audience. You're just being a newscaster putting the news out there to the public to form their own opinions out of your video concerning Behringer or any other gear. I love your videos and reviews. The bottom line is that you're not trying to argue or cause an argument. You're just letting us know more about Behringer.
Appreciate knowing you see it that way, cheers
@JorbLovesGear you're very much welcome. I enjoy your videos very much. I'm a gear freak myself and currently own 25 synths myself. 😊 I'm Terry and I love gear. LOL 😊
In my most sincere opinion:
Behringer does not make clones, only reverse engineered replicas and is inspired by things from the past.
In fact, he does not have a single clone, but he does have good replicas and some are better than a KARP 2600 Odyssey.
I will say that no brand has in its catalog replicas as great as the Monopoly, VC340, system 55, system 15, pro-800 module, solina, RD8, RD9, RD6, TD3, Odyssey, MS-1... the deepmind 12 It is a Juno with many things that you would like to have in an original one but its appearance will not remind you of any of them. I'm really convinced that if you use the deepmind 12 like a juno 106, you can make really classic sounds like on a 106.
I don't think we have to forget what the word cloning means:
Cloning describes the processes used to create an exact genetic replica of another cell, tissue or organism. The copied material, which has the same genetic makeup as the original, is called a clone. The most famous clone was a Scottish sheep named Dolly.
So, i base myself on this indisputable evidence.
Behringer tried to clone some things and had its legal problems, after that, Behringer showed me that they could make an exact clone of an original with the only difference of putting on their logo, but they didn't let them make any clones, that's also why they never did none.
Nostalgia and memories can make us confused about how things are, and believe that it is exact when it is not, and we have all proven that, that a replica does not sound the same as an original because it is a replica, because if If it sounded the same it would be a perfect clone of its original.
This is my thought about Behringer and its replicas, incorrectly called “clones”.
did you watch up to the point where i say i dont mind the clones of vintage stuff? or what the improved on?
are you forgetting about the clones of other companies in-production gear?
@@JorbLovesGear Everything I say I say as a user of Behringer and other brands, I have replicas and clones, with all the knowledge and cause of each case.
I also have originals from the 80s and some replicas like the D-50 and the D-05, the TR-909 and the TR-09 that I gave to my son.
Whether you like it or not, Moog makes minimoog clones (they call them reissue), behringer makes minimoog replicas with extra vitamins and Korg makes ARP clones, Behringer makes ARP replicas with extras, Korg makes MS20 clones, behringer makes the MS-20 with extras and in eurorack.
Korg doesn't make Monopoly clones yet, but Behringer makes a Monopoly replica with a folding panel. Behringer makes replicas others don't, that's all.
Gotta rewatch Everything Everywhere All at Once to find a wholesome Behringer in one of the parallel universes
Thank you for clearing this up and sharing it.
Along wth Benn Jordan's commentary on the same subject this is another great video commentary on Behringer. I would add something for the Wasted potential part: let's not forget the excellent BCR2000 controller.
Brilliantly put: a very thoughtful take on their shenanigans.
Your Deepmind patches are part of the reason I use the DM so much. Thank you.
Happy to hear that, cheers
The JX3P patches inspired multiple tracks of mine.
I think Deadmau5 saying he hated their gear might have been the final trigger for the company that sent them into the tantrum?
I don't know I'm just some girl who likes gear and companies who aren't dicks
"girl" yeah right lol
Great video. Glad you and your compadres are standing up for yourselves. I stand with you and all my favorite synthtubers with the ethics to stand against such blatant bad business. Cheers!
The same arguments are made in the watch community. People generally don't like clones/copies, but prefer "homage" type designs.
I SO appreciate this video. My first hardware synth a few years ago was the Crave. I knew so little about synths that I didn't know it was a clone of Mother-32. As I learned more and more the last couple years about Behringer I just started hating that thing in my studio. Not to take some big public stance, no one else needed to know that I have it. But I just despise what they are about - ripping off the smaller companies, and just being sh*tty to everyone for no reason. Dude reminds me of Musk or Trump. Just petty and insulting with a giant ego. So I sold my Crave. Moving on. Much happier to support Dreadbox and Make Noise and Erica and others. Happy to pay a little more if I have to.
Crave was my second after Neutron. They’ve all been replaced on my desk but stuck in boxes. I haven’t sold them because I like holding on to things, and I kinda love how they sound and how much I learned with them.
1K comments, awesome Jorb!!
Thank you!
Something cleared up in my mind by the way you separated the types of clones.
Cheers :D
Happy to hear that, cheers
Contrast this name steeling to Yamaha ehich aquaired the Sequential Circuits brand in 1987 when the company went under. Yamaha then returned the sequential name to David Smith at the encouragement of Ikutaro Kakehashi (midi cofather) after Smith found renewed success with his synthesizers in the early 2000s.
Totally agree with every word... There really could have been a different "Behringer" which treated other people with respect and produced products people could love without feeling guilty about it. I own loads of Behringer gear (D, Pro1, System100) but these things are slowing coming out of my rack and being replaced - and there's a reason for that.
Well said Jorb! There is a reason I watch your channel, loopop, bobeats and others like them, integrity in what is posted. Not that all big company's are bad or unethical, I would just rather hear the opinion of a person who just loves gear! I have bought some behringer gear in the past, but honestly I see companies like Moog, struggling to survive and just can't help but think that all this cloning/ copying of there designs has pulled the rug out from under them. I can't support that kind of thing, I'll just have to save a little longer and buy the real thing. Cheers and thanks for your hard work posting interesting and fun content! Hi my name is Bill and I love gear!
The wasted potential is really the horrible part. Here's a massive, vertically-integrated manufacturing powerhouse, and the best they can do is copy designs from much-smaller manufacturers?
Behringer should be the Apple of their industry - building products nobody else can make, leveraging their strengths to push the entire synth world forward. But that's not the Behringer we got.
Excellent commentary on the Behringer issue. Well done!
Well done, and good points. I love the fact that they put out discontinued synths. Its great that their prices are low. One of my favorite pieces of kit is the model D. Some of the other stuff they do, cringe. Bottom line for me, im a poor hobbiest, and will probably get more of thier products.
Years ago, I almost bought a Deepmind 6. For the price, it was a crazy device that even I as a college student could afford. Then the Peter Kirn thing happened. Soon after I stopped considering purchasing gear at all. It was shocking and really made me reconsider if I wanted to be in the wider producer community at all
One thing to note: I think the Four Play could be a clone of Mutable's Veils (this is without looking at the specs of Fore Play). I have both a Veils an Inteljel Quad VCA.
Im not defending behringer and their lack of creativity, but how many ways can you really create a 4 channel VCA in eurorack and end up with a usable user interface? A lot of the difference between a lot of eurorack modules comes down to one or two features and a paint job.
Well the four play is an aesthetical copy of Intellijel's quad vca which is serious theft. In terms of the functions and handling the Behringer one does not compare well.
@@gunnarwaage4343 have you used both, or are you just making that up because it feels right? The 12 HP Vails by mutable is also almost identical to the intelijel. No one ever talks about that.
@@noisetheorem I have both of them and the four play is a replica of the quad vca. Veils by Mutable Instruments has Absolutely nothing in common with either of them.
Ya, I wish they would stick to cloning gear you just. cannot. find. anymore, like the Solina. A Fairlight would be cool.
Great video and I couldn’t agree more! Keep up the always awesome work brother!❤
🙏🙏Thanks Eric, much appreciated
Josh - Not sure if you'll see this with the deluge of other comments, but I'll throw this on the pile in hopes you'll respond.
First, thanks for making this video. This is an important conversation. We are a community and because our instruments empower us and inspire us, many of us feel a loyalty to brands that enable us to make the music we do. However, as human beings, we need to weigh the ethics and morality of what it takes to make something and whether we choose to support certain practices.
I'd like to make a distinction that you touched upon in your video. I don't think of the Deepmind nor the Neutron in the same way that I do the clones. These instruments were designed by Midas (owned by Behringer). They are instruments that have been designed and not copied. Sure, they have taken certain inspirational cues from other instruments, but they are their own synths. And, honestly, remarkable and affordable ones at that! I don't feel the same guilt playing or owning those that I would for some of the others.
I think that those two are an important distinction.
There's another distinction that I'd like to make that falls in line with your acknowledgement of the Keystep clone (the Swing) and the current Eurorack clones. I don't have as much of an issue with clones of older instruments no longer in production. The Wasp, the Pro One, and the Cat were kind of a cool idea. Granted, they didn't do the development, but I could see the value in making older instruments available again in a more affordable format. However, the K2 (MS-20 clone), and the Crave (Mother 32) and the Edge (DFAM) were clones (or subtle variations) of instruments currently in production. In particular, the Crave and Edge sell for one-third of the cost of a Mother 32 and DFAM. Considering that those two Moogs were part of their most affordable line of instruments, it must have really hurt the company to have their cost-effective attempts get undercut by two-thirds.
I truly agree that just because something is legal doesn't make it "right." Furthermore, legal isn't necessarily ethical or moral. It's a pretty low bar for humanity. We should be aiming higher.
I would love if we could have a panel at Knobcon next year and discuss these issues intelligently. We can be passionate, but we should focus on universalizing these options and weighing out which truly "work" in a respectful society.
Peace, my friend.
Cheers Ted, all very well said.
Part of me feels that the market has room for both moog and behringer, but thats mostly thinking about the mdoel D. those price ranges are so different I dont think that anyone is really in the market for one or the other.
I hear you with the edge and crave though, i can see someone deciding to save some money for a similar functionality.
Thanks as always, missed you at knobcon this year
@@JorbLovesGear
I missed you and Matt and many others. I had some conflicts this year, but I plan to prioritize being there next year. I hope we can get in another real conversation or two like we did back in 2021.
I agree with your observation on the Model D. In fact, I own one. It was their first synth clone and the price difference was so huge that it was obvious that they were aiming at a different market. I then snagged the Neutron and really loved it. However, it was around that time that I saw the Cork Sniffer video and I took a serious step back.
The way Behringer has lashed out at individuals just isn't the way a responsible company should act. I still plan on getting a Deepmind 12D. Again, that instrument is not just a copy of something else. The integration of the powerful effects and built-in Wi-Fi for programming?!?! The instrument was a true game-changer! And especially a fully-articulated 12-voice analog synth (OSCs, Filters, and VCAs) at that price point is still absolutely mind-blowing!
But the company needs to behave responsibly and respectfully. I can't in good conscience buy a Crave, or and Edge, or a Swing, or any of the Eurorack modules that are copies of others that are currently in production (or their TipTop rack copy).
Again, this is a conversation that needs to take place and we need to look at this in an ethical framework. Kant established the principle of universality. Specifically, if an action cannot be universally applied, then it cannot be justified as ethical. If all synth manufacturers behaved as Behringer, then the industry would fall apart. Without significant R&D and pioneering, and with everyone copying each other, the tools would eventually stagnate and artists would lose interest.
Sure, it wouldn't happen overnight, but it would be a slow poisoning that would eventually kill the industry or cripple it to a point that many would lose interest.
Anyway, I thank you again for making this video and pointing this conversation in the right direction. I hope to keep in touch with you over the next year and truly can't wait to see you next fall!
Long Live Innovation and
Long Live Interfaces!
Peace my friend.
Probably the grossest part of that SM post was, imo, the implication that "influencers" OWE them cooperation, and deciding not to rent your hard won brand and audience trust to a company whose practices you dislike is somehow deplorable. This cancel outrage crap is ri-doodoo-diculous. It was the free market when you took every design that wasn't nailed down, it's the free market when people turn on you for it. Cuts going both ways.
Not to mention, there's an established pattern of behavior on their part that suggests if you work with them, you don't just owe them coverage, but *favorable* coverage.......or else.
Fr, I didn't read any of that stuff until recently and my first reaction was similar to yours-but mixed with laughter at how childishly whiny a floating corporate logo sounded 🙃
@@pennywise5095 That's much easier said than done. It costs a hefty chunk of change just to make a video about a thing without also having to spend (potentially) several thousand dollars on said thing; so that system would just mean that very wealthy people and those who already have a huge audience are the only ones to get a seat at the table. If you like seeing normal artists jam on the new hotness synths every week or two, they have to be paid for the time and artistry they put in on some level, and Gods know Yt isn't sharing much of that sweet sweet ad money. Even discounting the cost of all the recording gear and technical knowhow to work it, you've got learning a new synth front to back, jamming on it till you have an opinion and footage, hours of video editing (which is a whole other specialty), plus all the channel moderating and administration.
Great Jorb, job!
Wait..
Seriously, though. Great video.
Ok, so nuanced comment: I agree with everything you've said about them being bad actors in many situations. I also like the fact that they offer some original equipment at much lower prices than their competitors (Ultragain ADAT interface is awesome). I'd like to point out something specific to open source stuff. When companies (like MakeNoise) release something under an OSI approved license they understand the devil's deal they are taking. They are putting their stuff out there in the hope that it will improve the lives of users and developers with little to no hindrance. They also know that bad actors can profit off this, and they somewhat rely on the good nature / positive PR / game theory aspects of this deal to eventually end up with the overall community being better off. This is something that happens rarely enough in audio world for it to be something that people get riled up about. In general software world it's common. All the big companies are using open source code in their products. Some are good about giving back time and resources, some are just leeches, some are both. Microsoft and Google are currently probably much better than Apple at being good Open Source citizens. I can guarantee that in the music world, Korg, Roland, Native Instruments, Arturia, Yamaha, Ableton, and pretty much any other company you want to name are using open source software in their code bases and providing almost nothing back to the original developers. This is unfortunate, but it's not anything that the original developers didn't see coming. They're operating on the not so implausible belief that, at some point, one of these companies *will* provide some time and effort to improve the code, and they will push it upstream. This would then improve the software for all involved. It's rare, but it happens, and those that develop open source stuff are aware of this fact. They'd prefer it happened much more often, but they're idealists and they're generally happy with whatever they can get.
Disclaimer: Almost all the code I write is open source, and almost all the code-bases I submit changes to are open source. I don't do this for money, I do it because I want nice things to exist.
I really wish there would be some companies making open source products and firmwares. Often I think to myself that some gear has so much more potential than is used, because companies often focus on churning out new products instead of supporting and improving existing ones. Korgs logue SDK was a nice discovery for me in that regard, but there are so much more opportunities. Let alone MIDI controllers could benefit vastly from this. For example, the build quality and interface of the Arturia Keystep is wonderful - yet it's actually capabilities are still quite limited by the firmware. I actually recently discovered that there is a cool custom firmware for the Elektron Machinedrum (while dreaming/searching of a way to make polyphonic midi sequencing happen on the Elektron Model:Samples). I remember there being a small hack for the OP-1 too. Another very honorable mention is the TherapSID from Twisted Electrons: the entire firmware is open source! I understand that this is probably harder and more risky for a company, but ultimately I hope things will go in that direction. All of this reminds me of the videogame console homebrew scenes, where people show again and again that there's always so much more to gain from products if customers truly can own their hardware (which mostly happens unwillingly from companies perspective of course).
edit: Oh I forgot to mention trash80 (maker of the dirtywave m8). That project shows how much can be achieved my individuals.
I can't believe anyone would buy an ABACUS. I really hope that product fails miserably.
OK I just wanna say one thing. I love your videos. I watch all your stuff I’m a huge fan, but this cloning instruments goes back to Guitar’s, drums, pianos bases, I mean, the list goes on .There’s so many companies out there that makes or make guitars that look like other legacy style guitars .so for me this is been going on forever I get it And I do own some Behringer stuff. And is it good quality no and does it sound amazing yes. I guess my point is why are we so concerned about what Behringer is doing and not so concerned about how other legacy companies a price gouging people because it’s so-called Handmade? I don’t know I’ll just leave it at that great video by the way.
Yesss, I had a larger "Pedals are built on clones" etc section that I cut down into just the comparison of 3 different clones, and after I highlighted that i cant even evaluate clones on their merits anymore, it felt redundant
@@JorbLovesGear oh yeah, I completely forgot about guitar pedals.
Anyway, great video dude !
this is what wikipedia says.
" In July 2019, Gibson CEO JC Curleigh returned the Oberheim trademark and IP to Tom Oberheim as "a gesture of goodwill to the musical instrument industry."
the man is cloning business decisions jorb!
Good catch! Based on what I could find it seems like Gibson owned the brand name in the US (until 2019), whereas Behringer owned the brand name in other territories (until 2021). Thanks for pointing out that interesting piece of the story 👍
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience- great video! I’ll add a few thoughts here to the mix. First, I completely agree that copying products from small companies sucks… whereas just making nice modern replicas of vintage synths can be valuable to the music scene. I really love the MonoPoly and was considering buying the B- version until I saw the copy of Maths. … It would be one thing if B- reached out to these companies and offered to pay a commission or partner to leverage their manufacturing empire to make the products available at lower prices. Open source modules like Mutable are another topic. They are open- but makers like OS from Expert Sleepers have the decency to reach out and ask permission to include modules like Plaits and Rings in Disting EX. And I think that’s what this whole conversation comes down to… community, culture, and decency. I too would love to see B- put their massive resources towards innovation, and towards building a better culture rather than copying the most profitable ideas of other people.
Love the conclusion at the end. Community, culture, decency.
It's really an enclosure of the commons, I suppose. We've been keeping the resources open for the community, and now someone comes along putting-up fences like "well I can, so I shall".
You endorsed the Roland SH4D. I bought one on account of your review.
The SH4D was terrible.
Thankfully Andertons gave me a full refund as I sent it back within a month.
Wow, I guess Roland take care of you?
As if an instrument is a single vector of good or bad? Parts of it worked for me, and didn't for you, grow up.
@@JorbLovesGearconfusing reaction.
I respect your opinions but the SH4D review seems biased. Like a promotional advertisement.
Grow up! Wow.
The SH4D is terrible
Hey Jorb, still love your work. I was not trying to antagonise. I was extremely disappointed with the SH4D & I invested on your besotted vid.
Incidentally, you’ve got enormous balls going in hard & heavy at Behringer.
Agree with most of your views on this controversy. The one area which I disagree with is the clones of open sourced technology. When Mutable released the designs of it's Eurorack modules as open source they intentionally made it allowable for others to use the technology from those modules in their own products. This is at the core of open source, it is how it was designed to operate. Whether Behringer complies with the terms of that open source licence is another question. Behringer has a lot to answer for. But using open sourced designs is quite literally how it is meant to work.
If there's one thing they know how to do, it's getting people to talk about them
No such thing as bad publicity
You’ve made a hugely important distinction here that many in this conversation miss.
With some of the clones they’ve made (call them 'type 1'), I believe they genuinely have done the market a service by resurrecting a long-out-of-production unit. Take for example the CAT, WASP or even the MonoPoly. These haven’t been produced in many years, so the original manufacturer doesn’t suffer any ‘loss’ by them re-making it. They reintroduced these long-gone and quirky units to a whole new generation and that’s very cool!
In the middle you have the borderline cases ('type 2' units), where they are cloning something that is either still in production or at least could be (Model D, 2600, Pro-1, K2, etc). I justify owning these by the fact that I would never own the unit by the real maker because I could never afford it, so admittedly maybe I’m part of the problem there.
But on the other end of this ('type 3' clones), look at Intellijel and Mutable Instruments’ modular units. Not only are these companies currently taking on all the R&D risk and making their livings selling these, but if the cost of entry to buying them is too high for you, you can get the ‘virtual’ versions through Softube that are licensed and return profits to those companies. So there is no excuse for this type of IP-theft, and I do hope they are held legally accountable for it.
Then there are units which are possibly ‘original’ (although it is arguable). The funny thing is, these are my favorite productions by Behringer too (e.g. the Neutron and Deepmind). I think the best solution is to focus on this area, completely STOP making ‘type 3’ units, and try to work with the manufacturers selling the much-more-expensive ‘type 2’ units rather than against them. Maybe that would clean away much of the ‘dirty’ image Behringer currently has. And please continue to go nuts making more 'type 1' resurrection clones, I love it!
I have many thoughts, but ultimately typing them out feels like an effort in futility. Pro-B peeps vs Anti-B peeps is like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. Best to just stay out of the way for the most part.
The loud B-haters spend more time slamming Behringer instead of using whatever they like and getting on with life. No. One. Cares.
@@__teles__ Hm, to me it seemes like quite a few actually do care.
I own a lot of Behringer gear for the same reason I buy generic cookies at the food store, but I sincerely hope they fix the issues raised in this video.
Even just stopping direct clones of modern hardware to focus more on Deepmind-style designs could help fix their image and eventually land more Behringer gear into the rigs of influential musicians. The sound / builld quality are already there, IMHO.
This is what I'd like to see too. They have proven they can make original designs inspired by classic gear while being unique, that are excellent. But they also know that people want things that are 1:1 recreations.
I'm not sure that they are much worse than some other big gear companies. They are just more public about their questionable practices.
That keystep clone is pretty brazen. Arturia are not a Korg or a Roland and they charge reasonable prices for the quality products
100% agree! Arturia keystep clone was the one that made me go: I am never buying behringer. That product is just so disgusting.
There are hundreds of midi controllers on the market, yet every brand has their own design and vision about what is a good midi controller. Then there is Behringer who takes the most successful product and steals the design. That is just pathetic and should not be allowed. Do your own R&D.
Arturia is best known for what? Yes making software clones of vintage synths!
@@lundsweden For synths people want that signature sound, so I understand that. What is the reason to make a exact copy of a midi controller? It doesn't have a sound, it is just a utility tool. They could have changed the shape of buttons, layout, enclosure or do anything at all but they deliberately made it as close as possible to the original so that people know it is a clone. They want to ride on the success of other products instead of trying to make a new one.
Also software and hardware are very different things. I wouldn't be happy if Arturia made a physical Jun6 clone that would be 100% identical to the original. But well they won't do it, they have their own unique hardware synths.
@@cirisirpula152 Companies outside the synth world have been making clones for years. In the phone world everyone thinks every manufacturer copied the iPhone, but the LG Prada looked similar and was released first.
Don't be stupid
The keystep copy is the least troubling for me, the difference in price is too small to make it worthwhile getting the knock off.
I got the Behringer Edge and it changed my game. I appreciate them. I do feel dirty using their gear though. But I don't think they are evil. I like them. I like being able to use gear I can't afford and esoteric synths I don't want to pay massive bucks for.
Basically Uli Behringer is the Elon Musk of synths. the stealing; the gaslighting; the trolling; the antisemitism (and let's say dubious politics); the god/superhero complex; it's all there.
Behringer enabled me to have multiple tracks when I was young and broke. I was dissapointed that those tracks had SO MUCH noise I even felt ripped off. I wouldnt mind playing with a clone and seeing what thats all about but, you get what you pay for. I feel like most of us went through it. We just leave the Behringer gear to the new guys. If I saw someone about to buy a mixer I would stop them first and be like yooooo, does line noise matter to you? hahaah. Cool vid, real perspective. Thanks.
That's probably a good way to look at all of it: live and learn. I got into gear as Behringer's reputation for lousy quality assurance was wearing off, but fortunately I found a used Mackie mixer anyway.
I've only bought two synths and an octave pedal from them, and I may buy a few more. 😅 The less I indulge the G.A.S., the less I'll feel the need to muck around with Behringer…
Bro i own a xenyx and the noise floor is below -120db at unity gain.
@@You-ud2fp cool, that was like 20 years ago. Dues been paid up.
Behringer is not the only one who "copied" the open source Mutable stuff. There is a reason why Emilie made them OPEN SOURCE. That means it's free for all. I don't understand why everyone gets their panties in a bunch over it.
The only condition Mutable had is not to use their trade dress and trademarks. Which fair game Behringer respected. Other than that, it's fair game. Open source means anyone can make their version of it. Express permission from the original developer. So what gives?
Unlike Benn Jordan, I personally dont think the Peter Kirn cork sniffer image is anti-sematic. But it was still a dick move by Behringer. Hope they stick to clones of stuff that the patents expired for and bring some new proructs out too.
Now i need all you good people to face the other way while i gets an analogue polysynth 🤗❤
Check reverb first, buying used doesn't support the company 😉
Yeah, the social media stuff is cringe and the ripping off modern products sucks... But.. I'm still getting that grandmother clone when it comes out. Paying 800 more for the Moog logo, a keyboard and a spring... not in today's economy. Love you Jorb, keep it up.
Wouldn’t exist if Moog hadn’t designed it. You are voting with your wallet that only the manufacturing is worth paying for, and actually creating something new has no value.
@@st0rmchild yep, but I need to eat too
@JamesLevineAndSons OK you've convinced me
@JamesLevineAndSons I will buy two model 15's
@@pablo-939 The people who create the products you want don't need food?