Aww, thank you for the kind shoutout! This is an incredibly well-researched video. Love how much you put into it. I remember a few readers told me, years ago, that Hugo Award was supposed to be the most prestigious award given to SFF novels. Now, I have found a few great books from it, such as Broken Earth trilogy by N.K. Jemisin, but overall... I think so many books in the Hugo Award do not fit my reading taste. AND many SFF readers, actually. None of Brandon Sanderson's books are there. None of Ken Liu's Dandelion Dynasty. Even a series of novels as highly praised as A Song of Ice and Fire never won. Like it or not, it is an irrefutable fact that A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the most influential series out there. It is all so weird to me. Thinking about it, most of the books I decide to read are always based on cover art, premise, or reviews from fellow SFF readers and reviewers. Sure, we are not what people would deem as "professional", but many (not all) professional reviewers are paid, and they decrease the value of their words to me. For me, words from reviewers and readers like you mean much more. Bookborn and Reader's year-end awards, and after doing research and observation, I dare say that Booktube, Booktok, and Goodreads reviews and content DO increase sales. BookTok is most likely the most powerful of them all once it hits the viral stage. So now... I really don't pay attention at all to Hugo Awards except peripherally. I am, however, happy when any of my favorite authors or books win an award. Hugo award or not. Anyway, great content! :)
Always Petrik! You're our little celebrity in this corner! lol Sanderson's work doesn't surprise me as much because it def falls into that sort of line where people naysay because it's so popular/the way he writes. He got a nom for Emperor's Soul and that's it - I'm always so surprised Words of Radiance wasn't at least nominated. As far as ASOIAF, I think all but Feasts for Crows were nominated, but it surprises me sooo much that even A Storm of Swords didn't win. There is NO denying how influential ASOIAF has been on the genre... ANyway, all to say, as a fan voted award, I'm always surprised that it doesn't always seem to really reflect fan sentiment. Also I'm guessing you'll be interested... next week I'm putting out a video where I discuss these topics with Ken Liu, and it was super interesting to hear him speak on winning a hugo for Paper Menagerie and how it affected him as related to Dandelion Dynasty.
Minor correction on winners: Sanderson didn't just get nominated for Emperor's Soul, he won the Hugo for Emperor's Soul (2013 Hugo for best Novella). And Ken Liu did win the 2015 Hugo for best Novel, although as a joint award where he won for being the translator with Cixin Liu the author for The Three-Body Problem. Murderbot has won a bunch (both for novella and then in 2021 for Novel) which I feel is a pretty popular series with wider SFF readers (and me too). I personally have enjoyed some of the recent winners like Ancillary Justice from Ann Leckie about 10 years back and the SF 2020/2022 winners from Arkady Martine (which I guess isn't as widely popular on booktube). On Storm of Swords, it lost to peak Harry Potter with HP4 (only 3 and 4 were nominated and only 4 won). While it is a bit apples and oranges, ASOIAF definitely shifted the industry with grim dark, but so did HP with YA and with fantasy in general across wider culture (different shift obviously). Also most of the winners in the 1980s and 1990s were really quite good books. This isn't to say I'd always agree with the winner or wouldn't sometimes think one of the nominees were stronger than the eventual winner, but the hit rate for Hugo winners is quite strong from my POV.
I just wanted to say that I'm glad to see someone else who loved the Broken Earth trilogy, and I was wondering, does anyone here know who (if anyone) else has won three consecutive Hugos for three consecutive novels? N.K. Jemisin's wins as a Black woman after the "sad puppies" BS were beautiful, and the books themselves lifted her to my top shelf of favourite authors!
@michaelbodell7740 Emperor's Soul is a novella, though! And Ken Liu won a joint award as a translator. He also won The Paper Menagerie. I was referring specifically to novels. I should've made that clearer 😄 I myself haven't read too many novellas or short stories to form my own opinion on them. As for Murderbot and Ancillary Justice, personally, I'm not a fan of those two. Murderbot was alright I guess but I couldn't seem to get into Ancillary Justice. 😄 Seeing the nominations, I think it is only in the last few years that I started to feel even more disconnected from the nominees for Hugo. But again, just my personal opinion and reading taste!
@@Bookborn Haha thank you so much! Yeah, I am so shocked that Words of Radiance was never nominated and A Storm of Swords didn't win. As you said, for a popularity contest, it is odd how they don't earn their recognition on Hugo! AND THAT is interesting. I will definitely tune in to that conversation with you and Ken Liu. I'm sure he can shed interesting light on it! He's quite likely the most intelligent author I've ever encountered.
In my teens, I specifically used the books that had won both a Hugo Award (readers) and a Nebula Award (authors) as my TBR list. To date, there have been 26 books since 1976 and all but a couple appear on many people's lists of best or favorite. I think winners and nominees are a really good place to start, especially when there's broad consensus, but no one should stop with just those books. We all like things that are very, very good but aren't to everyone's tastes.
In particular, I found that award winners that sounded interesting to me I usually found good to excellent - while books I read ONLY because they were award winners I didn't like as much. It's really one of those things, like you said, that can be useful to guide you, but isn't the end-all be-all
Thank you so much for the mention and amazing video! Your breakdown and discussion were so good, and every point was well researched and articulated! I definitely enjoyed listening ❤
My novel was a finalist for the 2023 Indie Ink Awards in 11 categories. Has anyone ever heard of the Indie Ink Awards? Obviously, it's not as prestigious as the Hugos, not even close. But do I use that information to market my book? ABSOLUTELY. I greatly appreciate any awards that give authors a chance to help their book stand out in a crowded marketplace. To me, a Hugo nomination has a similar effect as Neil Gaiman giving a nice promotional quote on your cover.
Yep in the 90s, I found books by browsing a book store shelf and if I found something with a Hugo and/or Nebula winner sticker on it, I bought it. But by the 2000s I found the award winners were no longer inline with my tastes. I still sometimes found myself liking that year's best novel (loved Ancillary Justice for instance) but most of the time, the winners were nowhere near as good as all the overlooked stuff I read that year. Then the whole puppies fiasco came along and I have pretty much ignored the awards ever since.
I don't even know this puppies fiasco you speak of....but, apart from that, that was basically my experience with hugo awarded books growing up[ in the 90s] too! I don't know that I ever specifically picked a book out and brought it home just because of a hugo or nebula award sticker, but if a book I picked up had one I did notice that and think "Oh, cool!" / felt like that helped me keep a little more in touch with what people other than me were maybe reading, and I probably did sometimes reach for books with those awards out of curiosity to see if what they were about was something I was interested in reading or not. And I would sometimes notice if an author of a book I'd already read and enjoyed later announced somehow that this book had won an award, which sorta made me feel a little bit extra validated for having enjoyed it or something in some ways. But at some point in the 2000s or 2010s, I basically stopped even noticing hugo or nebula awards at all, because they often just didn't seem to involve the books I was actually/actively reading myself. And I was typically just picking books up that contained certain things I wanted to read at that time(like fiction with vampires &/or werewolves or dragons whatever) or were written by an author whose writing I already knew that I enjoyed specifically for their writing and not just for whichever specific story or characters I'd read from them before OR I was just getting book recs from friends/family//book-bloggers. And then life-stuff got away with me for a while and eventually I basically just stopped reading entirely for a few years after 2012 or so, until I very gradually started on-&-off dipping my toes back into it again when my niece got just old enough to start reading pretty avidly on her own and wanted somebody to talk to about books & such and I stumbled across booktube at some point between 2015 to 2019 as well. I'd honestly almost completely forgotten that the Hugo awards even existed altogether until this latest controversy reminded me it did exist , and I'd never learned how it was actually run or determined / voted-on // or whatever, until now. 😅🤭🤭😁🙃👀🫣😶🤦♀️🤦😅🤣 LOLL
Back in those days, I assumed the award winners were more stuff like an English teacher would force you to read. It definitely wasn't a positive to get me to buy it and might have even been a slight negative.
It definitely has influenced my picks in the past! More like I'd see an interesting cover, or see an interesting blurb and then ALSO see it won an award, and that would often push me over the edge.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who looks at the Hugo (or Nebula or...) award winners and nominees from past decades as one way of seeing what was popular and admired and talked about in those earlier eras. And seeing that something won a major award gives me a nudge toward making it a little more likely that I'll want to read it myself.
I used to care a lot about the Hugos. It was a great place, along with the Nebulas, etc. to find a great SF to read. The books nominated usually had thought provoking ideas and were far better than your standard SF novel. However, lately there is a certain type of novel that they are promoting and unless your novel is written by the type of writer or about the type of topic they're looking for, they won't nominate it. So basically, no I don't care as much anymore. If the Hugos became non-bias again in the future I'll give them a look.
All awards are inherently biased towards those choosing them - no award won’t be! I think the trick is choosing an award to follow that aligns with what you also like in the space
@Bookborn I think sometimes people get mad when an award shifts its focus on narrower criteria. There is nothing wrong with the Oscar's focusing on Hollywood "artistic" cinema instead of the crowd pleasers. But if you were using it as a listing of popular movies to watch than its not as useful anymore. Instead it's a list of the best American middle brow mid budget films. I think the Hugo's are similar in that the genre it considers is now a bit smaller and less crowd pleasing. There is nothing wrong with that, but it can confuse people into thinking that there is some conspiracy or something.
I think a large part of awards is “prestige”. The same thing for desirable slots like the New York Times Bestseller Lists. It’s a marketing tool, that may pay off with a certain audience that cares about those things, but doesn’t have as much impact as it may once have, where reviews were more gatekept by journalists and editorials. I think these awards have less impact as communication has become easier, and people rely less and less on singular places for what is considered “good”.
Wo needs the Oscar's when you have Rotten Tomatoes? Why bother with the Nebua or Hugo when I read a thousand reviews, genre descriptions, videos, and aggregated statistics instead? These awards were genuinely useful prior to more modern mediums of review.
Here's a little story from this writer's POV. I got an MA in literature back in the early 00s. At that time we needed to write a thesis, basically a small book of criticism. As a creative writer working on an academic work, I was a bit of an outsider, at least I felt so, and there were a lot of feelings of insecurity and imposterism. Well, in a nutshell, I won the "Best Thesis" award (voted on by the faculty) out of 10 or so other works. I remember a professor who wasn't a fan of my "style" say, "Well I guess he's not full of shit after all." For a writer to prove power wrong is an amazing feeling. Time passes and I've learned that while awards are a significant achievement--even at a botched Hugo it's worth it honor those who have won--they are not representative of anything, for we write against an army of gatekeepers, and what rises to the top is a fine cream, but it is an arbitrary cream.
My published books thus far are non-fiction (fiction coming 2025) but I can say from experience that the institutional validation and “prestige” of a handful of writing awards for my essays and cultural criticism increased Big 5 interest in me as an author (and likely my first advances.) My novelist friends who have swept BIG literary awards have swung doors wide open for movie options, well-funded book tours (WAY more sales, etc) It feels very generational: older people in publishing, the ones with kingmaking powers and budgets, can digest and understand awards as valuable, they have a harder time grasping online groundswells of fans, booktok, a solid online presence, and the engaging personalities of authors and willingness to generate sales with new forms of promotion.
I think a problem for many awards is that over time, the underlying motivation for nominations may shift from strictly ‘best accomplishment’ to where other considerations also start to matter, e.g. being marketable, representation etc. A prestigious award can only be exploited that way for so long before it becomes empty.
Great video with some really good research! It's so useful seeing quotes in context. I wonder how the internet and social media has changes the sales game.
That was an interesting view of the Hugos from someone on the outside as seen through a consumerist lens...let me express mine from the inside with a community point of view... (Full disclosure first...Although I have no connection to the Hugo Awards, a number of the people involved with the Chengdu Hugo controversy are people I have know for decades. One of the Guests of Honour, Robert J. Sawyer, is a long time friend of mine, so I am admittedly biased in this discussion.) Those of us who have been involved with Science Fiction Fandom, those of us who run conventions, published fanzines & APAzines, and run the awards like the Hugos and Canada's Auroras are all volunteers. That is not something that can be said for most well known awards out there. We *know* that the Hugo Award is a popularity contest, and that it is not just about books, it is about recognizing the outstanding work of people involved with the SF Fandom community, which includes authors. That is why in addition to the book and shorter works Hugos, there are also awards for artists, both professional and amateur, for fan publications, writing and other works of commentary. In fact, your channel would be probably be eligible for the Best Fancast Hugo, which is seen as an audio/visual fanzine. Your style of commentary has appeared in SF Fanzines for almost as long as the genre has existed! So you are continuing a long tradition...keep up the good work! If you want a more literary award in the genre, that would the Nebula, which is professional SF&F writers awarding the works that they think are the best in that year, or maybe the Locus Awards, which are handed out by the SF publishing trade publication, Locus. Another would be the World Fantasy Awards. Also, just a note: Worldcon attendance is by >membershipmember< of an event has has investment in the event, and this is even more with Worldcon. Having a membership in the event means more than just being able to attend. Those include the one being discussed, nominating & voting for the Hugo Awards, as well as selecting the site for an upcoming Worldcon. That membership also gives you priveledges...discounts on future Worldcon memberships, progress reports, etc. This is very different from your subject of comparison, sports fans. You don't see the fans with tickets to a Superbowl voting on the location of where the next Superbowl is happening, do you? 🙂
Thank you for a look from the other side! I really appreciate the deep knowledge you bring! I suppose my question is: I know that Worldcon *calls* their ticket a membership, but essentially, nobody has to read everything to vote - nobody is checking up on that. I wonder the spread on investment in the members each year, I'm guessing it varies. Although, considering you have to be more in the know than average to seek out a worldcon membership, perhaps more people are taking it seriously than average.
@@BookbornIt's not a matter of calling a "ticket" something else...Buying a Worlcon membership is essentially joining a club for a year or more, and once a year, the club has a big get together. It not a commodity that is sold to "others", membership is inclusive, making you part of the community. SF Conventions, before the advent of giant commercial events like Creation Con and Comic Con, were all about community, not selling a product to a consumer. An example of this is that writers, editors and artists did *not* charge for signing their autographs at SF Conventions. Until you understand the difference between commodity and community, you can't really understand the magnitude what happened and how it will affect the community. Not everyone at Worldcon votes for the Hugos. As for how many read all of the nominated works...that varies with the Catagory. Generally, though, people who want to vote for the Hugo Award will make an effort to read all the works. Also know that there are two types of Worldcon memberships, Attending and Supporting. The Supporting membership is for those who want to be able to vote, but for some reason cannot attend. So there is a great deal of community investment in the award. For the novel, I would say that most of the voters have read all of the novels, especially now that some of the publishers make ebook versions of the finalist novels available for free to Worldcon Members...same goes for some the shorter form works. Membership *has* its privileges! 🙂 It is not unusual for people in SF Fandom to read at a book a week, if not more. Myself, I can easily read two or three books a week, depending on circumstances. So reading speed is not an issue. There is also the fact that it is a community award, so naturally the books that most people have read will purculate up towards the top of the nominations list. Add to that, there is the way voting for the Hugos works...on the ballot you rank from 1 to however many the books...so your favourite book you would rank 1, the next one you like 2, etc., and you don't have to rank all of the novels,, although the system works best if you do. Add to that there is the "No Award" choice where if you feel that none of the novels are worthy of the Hugo Award that year, you would rank "No Award" #1. Or to put it another way, many Worldcon Members not only see the list of Hugo Award finalists as a curated list works to read, but also as a chance to get free books! As for having to be more in the know to get a Worldcon membership? True, but with average attendance in the 5,000 range, that is not exactly hidden. 🙂You should get out to a few fan run SF book oriented conventions! As you are in the US, there is bound to be one in your neck of the woods, or not to far away. Or go to the Worldcon in Glasglow, Scotland this year...if you channel is your job, you could probably write off most of the trip. Or, if you don't want to travel outside the North American Continent, there is the NASFiC, or The North American Science Fiction Convention, which is held whenever Worldcon is outside of North America. This year's NASFiC is in Buffalo, NY, July 18-21, 2024.
I don't think for a lot of people that it's about boycotting. At least for me, this invalidates the Hugo Awards for at least quite a while. I'm not going to be using it to select books. In that small way, they've already lost some power and influence.
Yeah, I just see a lot of vocalization about boycotting! If enough people view them as meaningless, then it feels that ultimately a sales effect wouldn't be noticeable and their reputation would finally peter out. On the other hand, publishers are often behind the times and may continue to offer opened doors/bonuses even if the general fan consensus is that they don't matter. It's hard to tell!
Recently it seems to be a three-way battle between what is supposed to be award-worthy: actual great SFF, "literary" (a.k.a. not fun to read but with artistic merit) SFF, and promoting a certain "message" (said in the voice of the Critical Drinker). Unlike Hollywood, the last one hasn't fully gained ascendancy, but still has enough input to ensure that the nominee lists will include books there for no other reason than that certain boxes have been checked. I'm not going to say that none of the books that have won recently have been undeserving, but the days of universally acclaimed stories that stand the test of time filling the nomination lists and winning Hugos seems to be long past.
It seems somehow kinda weird and almost oxymoronic, to me , for you to class "artistic merit" under 'literary' and 'not fun to read' for some reason.... 🤔😅😅🫣🙃🤷♀️🤷👀 Not entirely sure why. But... I think most people typically would class "artistic merit" and "fun to read" together (and 'literary'/'not necessarily quite so fun to read' .. but somehow important or relevant &/or otherwise 'mattering' or 'making a difference/impact somehow' if that even makes any sense) instead?? Or maybe that's just me and my own weird misperceptions or something. IDEKK😶😁 Loll But, apart from that, I would generally agree there are for sure some differing contentions going around out there about what does or doesn't make fiction that is truly great and/or should be read or not these days.
Ironically i'd started scripting a similar idea on awards with the goodreads hype and a Reads With Rachel video on readers not trusting certain reviewers or review aspects. But you touched on a lot i hadn't considered. And also SAME about trying to find supporting evidence! I took to going to book stores and the book sections of thrift stores to just ask people browsing like the awkward mess that I am. Scientific? Not really. Helpful? It was for me. :)
A surprising amount said that if they see any award displayed on the cover was an immediate turn off from reading the book. While it wasn't a majority, I was still amazed how often someone cringed when thinking of the answer or rejecting a book with it. The majority of people i awkwardly went up to said they don't usually notice if there is an award on the cover if it's not prominent, or they weren't aware it was nominated until they'd already begun reading it and started to talk about the book. The only ones the general public assumed won awards were the viral titles because of how often they heard the name, even if they themselves hadn't read it yet. In the dozens and dozens asked over the span of about 2months, I typically found that librarians (employee or volunteer) were the ones most familiar with what books won/were nominated for any awards. While a handful of people randomly through bookstores, thrift stores, and libraries were aware. Most said they picked up a book because the title or cover caught their attention and then either went into reading the first page or the back blurb before deciding -- with about half mentioning that if they thought someone they knew had read it, they were more likely to pick it over another book@@Bookborn Sorry about the short essay, lol I got excited to share...
22:38 The musical Hamilton says; "Legacy. What is a legacy? It's planting seeds in a garden you never get to see. I wrote some notes at a beginning of a song someone will sing for me."
Great video. Congratulations! I am from Brazil and can assure that the local SFF publishers prefer to translate US books that were adapted to the screen (movies/series) or award winners. Recently, I think the booktube hype is getting influential in this matter too. It's a fascinanting theme. To understand how these awards work. Thanks for the research and info.
I think the Hugo’s have benefitted this year from the controversy in terms of reach. More people are now more aware of the award’s selection process and now I think there will be more participation in the voting pool at Glasgow’s awards this year. I think wait and see what the committee’s do to rectify the mistake is probably the best option. Boycottting them ain’t gonna do nothing because you’ll just devalue the award in the eyes of the public even more, which will be immensely hard to recover considering how our habits have changed Speaking of that, absolutely our book buying habits have changed. I, like you would LOVE to see some numbers to back up all those claims. Sadly, I don’t think we’ll ever get them because publishers. Maybe we need an indie to get into the Hugo’s to figure it out, but that would likely be another confounding factor.
We sort of got Travis Baldree....he was nominated anyway... lmao maybe I need to go force him to talk to me about it 🤣 I wish SO many more industries would be transparent about these things...like GIVE ME THE TV SHOW NUMBERS!! I want the data! I want to know! But then they can't pretend things are more successful than they are
I think you're totally right about the Internet changing things. You look at a book like Ender's Game which was a Hugo (and Nebula) award winner in 1986 and is certainly one of the most prolific SFF books of the 20th century. Compare that to Words of Radiance which, behind Calvin and Hobbs, is the highest rated book on Goodreads of all time. It won a Whitney Award, but not really anything else of note. Yet is still one of the best Fantasy books of the 2010s. I think the accessibility to "real people's" opinions has made a huge difference in what people are reading now compared to 20-30 years ago, but like you said, only time will tell.
I’m super curious when the shift happened or how it happened. The Hugo’s are definitely awarding different types of SFF now - which I don’t think is a bad thing, more a neutral thing; but I wonder why or how it happened. For example, I could never see a book like Goblet of Fire winning a Hugo today (ignoring any controversy surrounding the author. I mean just the book itself). GoF was insanely commercially successful, and a children’s book to boot. That would be like WoR being nominated, like you said, and that never happened or probably wasn’t close to happening haha
@@BookbornNo, it's not the internet, it's an ideology, it's always the same ideology. A certain, sexist, racist, victimhood cult, that really likes to take over institutions, and then rule from the inside out. The Hugo awards give awards to the non-white, the non-male, and if they are white or male it's because the characters aren't white or male (an extreme rarity as a white person writing about that will usually be called a racist or cultural propriator and that kind of stuff.)
Comradery can trip up the tongue. Enjoyed your analysis as usual. I've never really liked critically acclaimed movie and award winning books haven't always appealed to me, so I pay no attention to such things.
As a media consumer, I don't give any credence to the vast majority of awards, especially when the process is 1) obfuscated from the public and 2) chosen and awarded by anyone other than the general public. Over my lifetime, I have found that my preferences don't tend to align with those that are subjectively judging art. "Oscar bait" films, for example, tend to be pretentious and cover ground I don't usually care to engage in. Add to that the fact that much of my preferred media is completely ignored by the vast majority of these organizations, and I just don't find these types of awards to be relevant to me. That said, I think awards would definitely matter to those who receive them, because recognition IS important, and at a bare minimum, such awards raise awareness of the nominated and winning works.
I had an entire section on oscar-bait in here that I cut out for brevity sake. I think the concept of oscar bait is so fascinating, especially since it's been statistically studied (with wild results) and because it's so openly talked about and known. In the book space, it seems we talk more about "awards becoming politicized", which is weird and not very descriptive, especially considering Sci-Fi is KNOWN as a genre that is very politicized in general. Maybe we need to just start talking about "Hugo-bait" lol
Honestly, awards in general is irrelevant now. I never read a book based on whether it won an award. They’re just popularity contests at this point. Not just books either.
I think merit-based awards, whether they are for film, television, music, or books, are fun to follow but I have come to not really care about them as a literary standard or marker. Speaking purely from personal perception: if the award is widely open to a voting pool (i.e., public), the nominees alone seem to be more often than not chosen, let along winners awarded, based on popularity among the voters or, if the more isolated to a selected or member committee, chosen and awarded based on campaign. Maybe I'm just jaded and disillusioned.
As someone who has been buying books for myself for 35 years. I can honestly say I've never bought any book because of an award it has won at least directly.
They'll always matter to authors because of the validation. I'd give up a lot for a chance to win a Hugo. The closest I'll ever come is that my college and grad school roommate won a Hugo - that's the closest I'll come to greatness.
@@Bookbornsorry I thought I responded to this. John Chu, who won for Best Short Story in 2014 and also won a Locus for Best Novelette (different story). Neither of us wrote fiction in college, which makes it funny.
1) The early "martial awards" of the Hellenic worlds were also acccompanied by literary ones. Same levels & types of prestige. 2) The Nobel Prize for literature has had its share of problematic controversies. 3) Sales: what about the effects on future publication deals? Do they affect numbers of future works? Better publishing deals can lead to better advances & publishing? And when sales don't back them up? 4) Getting hold of dead tree copies--I recommend, also, exploring Inter-Library Loans where possible. 5) To paraphrase Chris: Brennan--"Metrics are a curse." Marketing online changes are essential, especially if payola is added to the mix &/or influencers. 6) "Hugo award winner" = "eye candy"? 7) Access to data; to what extent is it user-pays? Locked behind paywalls? Elsevier-type malarkey? 8) Pro-tip: a Hugo is not an appropriate item when in need for a dado or a Daddo, regardless if your name is Andrew, Cameron, Lochie or the other two....
I have definitely bought books based on a Hugo or Nebula award win. I looked up Hugo winners on Google. A win could mean the difference of buying one book over another. However, that’s only true for the first sixty years of Hugo’s. The last decade I feel the Hugo’s , like all awards , are becoming deluded with politics and popularity. So most awards aren’t as important these days. Sad but true. This watering down of quality is mostly due to the influence of the internet .
The 4-horse chariot race was arguably the post political award at the Olympics. It was dominated by the Spartan aristocracy because participation was so expensive-even one horse was a luxury item.
I'm reminded of the story of how Out of Africa (1985) didn't fare too well at the box office UNTIL it dominated at the Academy Awards, including winning the Oscar for Best Picture. I say it's a "story" because I'm not sure how true it is, it's just an anecdote and I don't remember where I even heard it. But even if it's true, I think it's an outlier re: the impact awards have on views/sales/readership/etc. But of course that was before the internet, where such mainstream TV events as the Oscars were the only way to learn about certain movies. My point is: it's a complicated subject for sure!
So I think there is actually some proof that being nominated for best picture at the Oscar’s does increase viewership quite a bit (idk if that’s changing now with the diversification caused by streaming). I do think in this way movies and books are fundementally different: one takes a LOT more time commitment. Movies are around 2-3 hours of time/ a single night. An SFF book for the average reader will take anywhere from a week to a month to complete. I wonder if that affects that sort of stuff
I'm gonna go with your excellent previous reference video on Book Awards: "Victor Hugo would be appalled....if he is the namesake! Oh wait, it’s Hugo Gernsbacher, publisher of Amazing Stories! I say go for Locus (readers) and Nebula (SFF writers non profit association)!" Ah, I do pause and say "cah-mah-rah-dree" or go with "comraderie" (comrade)! I think film awards and film events are actually signficantly satisfying and inspiring for reading SFF! Like LotR and DUNE. For films, there are several different almost political and even starkly different priorities and then there rare agreeances across the board on what's "best" in life, as defined by Conan the Cimmerian (ehem, hard C, I insist). I've come to the quick conclusion to dodge the Hugo's if i really want to be as sincere as possible in finding what i would love to read and what is best, again. No-go on Hugo, I got way too many other fascinating books of many genres and (ehem, intensive) purposes to read that I actually want to read.
It's interesting... I don't have anything of value to add really. Great video. I think personally, I fall to the-sticker-made-me-buy-it on occasion, but it's usually for silly reasons. Like most recently I read Klara and The Sun because I needed a book title with the letter K for a challenge, and I didn't know how to pick one. The fact that this author had won a nobel prize was what sealed the deal, and it was a sticker on it that said it. So I think these types of awards do sway us in some capacity. I didn't know anything about this book, I hadn't even heard of it. But I needed it for a prompt and I wanted to not waste my time reading a bad book, so the sticker helped me in that capacity. (P.S. It was a very good book)
My two cents... if I see a book that sounds interesting and I know they've won a Hugo... it might give me that boost to pick it up to see what the hubbub is, but if the book doesn't sound interesting in the first place, it's not going to make me buy it. And yes, I've been way more influenced by my fellow booktubers (glances at the copy of The Way of Edan on the shelf behind me) than any award.
Since this is your latest video I want to do a book recommendation; Cradle by Will Wright it’s an truly amazing and original series with 12 books in the main series set in a multi series universe ( like the cosmere ) I haven’t read the other works set in the same universe yet but for me cradle was an amazing read ( other series you might like are red rising series and suneather series just to name some )
I do like to keep an eye out on what's winning awards. I'm not sure how big a factor they are in my own decisions, but it's probably not nothing. They definitely matter less in today's world. Curation mattered so much pre-internet. The forms of that curation have simply changed. Measure something like winning a Hugo to being seen with Taylor Swift, or something like that. I think there's a wider conversation to be had about where people decide to get information from nowadays too. I'm sure the big prize relevance has diminished, now that we have so many opinions out there.
I think award shows in general have been getting more disconnected with mainstream people for years. The Grammy’s is the only major award that regularly awards popular content. I think many of the people who vote for awards inherently look down on popular content and refuse to vote for anything mainstream, regardless of how good it is. There are exceptions here and there, but in general, mainstream books don’t win the Hugo, especially recently. Is the Hugo truly awarding the best in science-fiction/fantasy when none of George RR Martin, Brandon Sanderson, Terry Pratchett, Robert Jordan, Robin Hobb, James S A Corey, Blake Crouch, and Andy Weir have ever won best novel? I say no.
I actually had to google if Terry Pratchett has never won a hugo because that did blow my mind a bit. He apparently won for a related work, but shocking he never won best novel. I knew the others hadn't won one... it's interesting, they've awarded some "post" hugos, where basically they award a book from a while ago (I think they gave one to LOTR, for example). I wonder if in the future we'll get one of those for ASOIAF, which influence cannot be denied at this point on the genre.
He never won for best novel. A biography on his life, which was based on his memoirs, just won for related work. I’d say the Hugos are a bit biased towards science fiction, but even so, it’s surprising how many of who are considered the best fantasy authors and what are the best fantasy book series have never won this award.
One not to be scoffed at benefit of the Hugo and Nebula awards pre-Internet era was that those were the books that would get translated from English to other languages. Other best selling books would sometimes see translations as well, but not nearly as reliably as award winners An outlier in that regard was of course SirTerry Prattchet, whose books kept being translated and consequently underselling to the Dutch market. Likely because 95% of the people interested in those books wanted them in English, had loong since ordered them from the UK (even before Amazon) and gifting the translated version to family members saying "The English version is way better" only goes so far. Try explaining that to marketeers who see this best selling author underperforming in that one foreign market though.
I've never bought any book because of BookTok or BookTube. I buy every Hugo winner*, and many of the nominees, and I've gone back as far as the 60s to buy them. So yes, my buying habits are directly impacted by the Hugos. Those aren't the only books that I buy, but they guarantee a sale to me. *No, I'm not going to go track down They'd Rather Be Right.
I like the Oscars but my SFF tastes are less niche than the prominent awards, while my music tastes are more indie/alternative. To each their own, I suppose.
As a super competitive person who loves sports, I don’t care about awards like the Oscars, Grammy’s, Hugo, etc. I typically don’t like most of the winners of these awards. There are controversies in sports: paid off judges in figure skating as an example. Humans want to be acknowledged for the achievements, so we will always have awards. What I can’t stand is giving people awards for just showing up.
A lot of you will not like this but: it’s hard to get upset about works being excluded for political reasons, when for the past ten or so years so many works have been awarded *for* political reasons…
Some animal side of me definitely likes the thrill of winning awards. But then, how are awards decided? Usually popularity or some cabal choosing what they like. And I've long rejected popularity contests, and if I'm using some representative for my tastes, then I'm just going to find someone on my own.
Honestly, awards have never meant anything to me when choosing a book to buy/read. It just doesn’t matter to me. At most, I will see the award on the book cover and think “huh, cool,” and then promptly forget it. If I really liked the book, might go look the award up to see what it was for. But that is more of a “does this award have anything to do with why I loved it?” It doesn’t change anything for me though. It may not be fair considering all that actually going into these awards but I have always condensed them down to politics and popularity contests; and that has no impact on my personal enjoyment of the book. I find these kind of awards more interesting from a human study viewpoint than as a way to find a great book. 🤷🏾♀️
I imagine the Hugo makes a difference for the author, but as with most awards, just because someone is designated the winner does not mean the book is any good. Some of the worst books I read last year were Hugo winners. This was also cute too. I can't say the world rural. 🤣 Here's assistance on that topic: comradery and the pronunciation is /ˈkämradrē/.
Hmmm see I think that's a common fallacy. Stickers cost them literally NOTHING to put on a book - they aren't physical stickers, it's just a part of the book design. There's no reason *not* to do it, and so even if it had the smallest measure of effect, I can see publisher stil ldoing it. Especially if we think long term - maybe it used to have a huge effect, but has less of one now, and publishers are still relying on it. There has been a lot of discussions on how publishers are behind the times in a lot of ways...
Awards, particularly those with a long history or associated with critical acclaim, can influence the purchasing decisions of libraries and schools. This can lead to bulk purchases, significantly increasing sales. Publishers often increase marketing efforts for award-winning books, using the accolade in advertising, on book covers, and in promotional materials. Bookstores and libraries are also more likely to feature these books prominently.
I think award matter, maybe some of them. I know each book I read that was a Pulitzer winner was excellent. It's always top notch but they are usually biography or history and are fact based.
Maybe don't hold Hugo's voting in a country ruled by a repressive totalitarian regime. And screw the internet. Go to a bookstore. It's good for the economy and the soul.
Validation is an interesting topic. My wife needs it, but wants it to be, in general, completely honest. While I see it as a poison. I don't want validation as it takes away from the deed itself. In my eyes anyway. Like, aren't doing a thing because it's right or good, you are doing it because you want praise. I saw that alot growing up and even more now.
I have discovered lately that if a book has won any kind of literary award (Hugo, Stoker, etc), then I'm probably not going to like it. Many of these books are written for literary snobs, many of which don't even like the genre that they're writing in. They're not fun or entertaining or even thought-provoking. They're not written for an audience. They're written to impress other snobby writers like themselves.
@Bookborn The Sad Puppies were the warning. They were a protest of books being made ineligible for political reasons, all if which were right of center. The Sdd Pupp Slate sought to have books nominated based solely on quality of work. As such, the books that they nominated ran the whole political spectrum. Marco Klos is a Leftist. I am not. I do like and read his books. He refused to accept his award because he was on the Sad Puppy Slate. Cultural Marxism is a rot in society. It will not allow opposing viewpoints to be heard. Whether Sad Puppies, Gamer Gate, or current state of film, it must be denounced. Diversity of viewpoint should be championed. You noted that the the most current quote you found for a positive Hugo impact was 201q. It's not a coincidence this is pre Sad Puppies.
So YT said it deleted my comment... idk why. Anyway let me try again. I am an average reader who pays no attention to the "personalities". I just want good books. I tried to read Hugo nominees a while back and didn't like any of their books. So I stopped paying attention. I've gotten to the point that if I see a book won any award, like the Hugo or the... Nebula. I think that's the name of the award. If I see they won those I'll actively not read that book. That's how much trust I have in awards. Less than none.
RUclips and other online sources have made professional critics and reviewers largely irrelevant, including awards and award shows. People want to see fans talking about books, films, etc. that they love. Also, I detected a 'flall' in there, LOL.
I think, if professional critics had casual/engaging online presences and full transparency about exactly what their qualifications were to make them "experts" in that field(like what their experience with and/or education in the subject actually was/is/ and where/why/how or whatever), and if their award selection process + criteria / award granting ceremony or such were streamed online if not live at least actually with active enough updates along the way throughout the journey for fans to feel a part of it or something....then _maybe_ more fans might care a little bit more. 🤔🤔 😅 But, who knows, that's just me completely guessing.🤷🤷♀️🤷🏻♂️ 😁 Lol
I think professional reviewers, especially ones with credentials, can hold a different function than fans. Like, someone within the industry, who is a writer, might look for different things, and that can be super interesting and useful. Whereas a regular person or fan reviewing, gives a different sense of a book. I'm releasing a chat I did with Ken Liu about this subject next week, and as a spoiler for what he says that I thought was incredibly insightful, he said that awards reflect more on the person giving them than on the person receiving them. I think that is SO true with these book awards.
I agree partially; but I also don't think being a journalist on a news site necessarily says anything about credentials. Writers are a different story. They know the struggle and conquered it.
Honestly which metrics are they even looking at? It seems so random. These awards has lost quite a bit of credibility in my view. But of course it still comes with a lot of prestige to win an award - and most regular people don't really know or care about the things going on behind the scenes. Maybe a solution could be, that one or more of you guys (the medium / big youtube channels) in combination with an external partner (who could fund the whole thing) could create an award? Because the Nebula and Hugo awards are just not - it - anymore.
I mean there is the World Fantasy award which is a panel of judges, and the Nebula is other authors and people in the industry, and the hugos are fan voted - although once again, it seems those fans are a small subset. I think it's perhaps that worldcon isn't like super well known to the general populace or something? Because it definitely seems the books that win aren't always aligned with other metrics of what's doing well. But then again, I think the Hugo's have decided on some different metrics that are important to them, which is fine - the important thing is understanding what an award is awarding, and seeing if that aligns with what you like to award. As a booktuber, I already "award" my favs by just giving them all five stars and making weird videos where I beg you guys to read them LOL
Do awards matter for creative entertainment products? Yes and No. All are subjective popularity contests and depend greatly on the demographics of the voting bloc as different demographics will like different things on average and the numbers of each demographic. However, these awards are good selling points for the content creators. The general public sees an award had been given to this item, and that is assurance the product is good enough for purchase. So, yes and no.
I used to care about Hugos a lot. For purely selfish reasons - it used to be a good way to highlight memorable books among thousands being published. But at some point the award went of the rails and started promoting books that are... average? I don't know. At first I was upset, but now I'm indifferent. I just don't care. The question why things went wrong is interesting, and I don't know the definite answer. I feel that in the aftermath of puppy debacle Hugo lost its "narrowing down" you talk in the video. Old nominees and winners feel as if the community was looking for specific features - thought-provoking fascinating ideas. Modern Hugos feel like yet another popularity contest among many other similar awards. Technically they always were popularity contests, but they didn't feel that way until ~8 years ago.
Over the last couple of years, I’ve come to the decision that awards like these don’t matter to me anymore. Just because it was nominated or that it won doesn’t mean it’s going to be for me.
When I read all the 2010's hugos, I found that books I was already inclined to read I liked a lot, and books I wouldn't have read otherwise I didn't like lol So yeah, they don't seem to really matter to me much anyway, other than just interest/see what's new.
@@Bookborn I wonder if that's an indication that, nowadays within SFF, there are more different kinds of books that appeal to different kinds of readers.
wheel of time talk i hate nynaeve she is dam annoying to moiraine and just annoying in general like girl get out my site please by the series and plus love the vids keeep going
it wasn’t political motivated bc all the authors have varying opinions on china. the committee just didn’t find them having any merit, it showed me how entitled authors can be bc why do you think you’re politically active just bc u made a post 😂 political active means your actually doing things not just reposting a popular tag you don’t even know abt it’s really gross they grift this hard lol
That's actually not true, lol. Emails have leaked specifically saying they created political dossiers on the authors, and after receiving enough votes to be nominees, were disqualified for reasons that aren't related to any of the regular Hugo reasons in the rules. So it WAS politically motivated.
Aww, thank you for the kind shoutout! This is an incredibly well-researched video. Love how much you put into it. I remember a few readers told me, years ago, that Hugo Award was supposed to be the most prestigious award given to SFF novels. Now, I have found a few great books from it, such as Broken Earth trilogy by N.K. Jemisin, but overall... I think so many books in the Hugo Award do not fit my reading taste. AND many SFF readers, actually. None of Brandon Sanderson's books are there. None of Ken Liu's Dandelion Dynasty. Even a series of novels as highly praised as A Song of Ice and Fire never won. Like it or not, it is an irrefutable fact that A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the most influential series out there. It is all so weird to me.
Thinking about it, most of the books I decide to read are always based on cover art, premise, or reviews from fellow SFF readers and reviewers. Sure, we are not what people would deem as "professional", but many (not all) professional reviewers are paid, and they decrease the value of their words to me. For me, words from reviewers and readers like you mean much more. Bookborn and Reader's year-end awards, and after doing research and observation, I dare say that Booktube, Booktok, and Goodreads reviews and content DO increase sales. BookTok is most likely the most powerful of them all once it hits the viral stage. So now... I really don't pay attention at all to Hugo Awards except peripherally. I am, however, happy when any of my favorite authors or books win an award. Hugo award or not. Anyway, great content! :)
Always Petrik! You're our little celebrity in this corner! lol
Sanderson's work doesn't surprise me as much because it def falls into that sort of line where people naysay because it's so popular/the way he writes. He got a nom for Emperor's Soul and that's it - I'm always so surprised Words of Radiance wasn't at least nominated. As far as ASOIAF, I think all but Feasts for Crows were nominated, but it surprises me sooo much that even A Storm of Swords didn't win. There is NO denying how influential ASOIAF has been on the genre... ANyway, all to say, as a fan voted award, I'm always surprised that it doesn't always seem to really reflect fan sentiment.
Also I'm guessing you'll be interested... next week I'm putting out a video where I discuss these topics with Ken Liu, and it was super interesting to hear him speak on winning a hugo for Paper Menagerie and how it affected him as related to Dandelion Dynasty.
Minor correction on winners: Sanderson didn't just get nominated for Emperor's Soul, he won the Hugo for Emperor's Soul (2013 Hugo for best Novella). And Ken Liu did win the 2015 Hugo for best Novel, although as a joint award where he won for being the translator with Cixin Liu the author for The Three-Body Problem.
Murderbot has won a bunch (both for novella and then in 2021 for Novel) which I feel is a pretty popular series with wider SFF readers (and me too). I personally have enjoyed some of the recent winners like Ancillary Justice from Ann Leckie about 10 years back and the SF 2020/2022 winners from Arkady Martine (which I guess isn't as widely popular on booktube).
On Storm of Swords, it lost to peak Harry Potter with HP4 (only 3 and 4 were nominated and only 4 won). While it is a bit apples and oranges, ASOIAF definitely shifted the industry with grim dark, but so did HP with YA and with fantasy in general across wider culture (different shift obviously). Also most of the winners in the 1980s and 1990s were really quite good books. This isn't to say I'd always agree with the winner or wouldn't sometimes think one of the nominees were stronger than the eventual winner, but the hit rate for Hugo winners is quite strong from my POV.
I just wanted to say that I'm glad to see someone else who loved the Broken Earth trilogy, and I was wondering, does anyone here know who (if anyone) else has won three consecutive Hugos for three consecutive novels?
N.K. Jemisin's wins as a Black woman after the "sad puppies" BS were beautiful, and the books themselves lifted her to my top shelf of favourite authors!
@michaelbodell7740 Emperor's Soul is a novella, though! And Ken Liu won a joint award as a translator. He also won The Paper Menagerie. I was referring specifically to novels. I should've made that clearer 😄 I myself haven't read too many novellas or short stories to form my own opinion on them.
As for Murderbot and Ancillary Justice, personally, I'm not a fan of those two. Murderbot was alright I guess but I couldn't seem to get into Ancillary Justice. 😄 Seeing the nominations, I think it is only in the last few years that I started to feel even more disconnected from the nominees for Hugo. But again, just my personal opinion and reading taste!
@@Bookborn Haha thank you so much! Yeah, I am so shocked that Words of Radiance was never nominated and A Storm of Swords didn't win. As you said, for a popularity contest, it is odd how they don't earn their recognition on Hugo!
AND THAT is interesting. I will definitely tune in to that conversation with you and Ken Liu. I'm sure he can shed interesting light on it! He's quite likely the most intelligent author I've ever encountered.
In my teens, I specifically used the books that had won both a Hugo Award (readers) and a Nebula Award (authors) as my TBR list. To date, there have been 26 books since 1976 and all but a couple appear on many people's lists of best or favorite. I think winners and nominees are a really good place to start, especially when there's broad consensus, but no one should stop with just those books. We all like things that are very, very good but aren't to everyone's tastes.
In particular, I found that award winners that sounded interesting to me I usually found good to excellent - while books I read ONLY because they were award winners I didn't like as much. It's really one of those things, like you said, that can be useful to guide you, but isn't the end-all be-all
Thank you so much for the mention and amazing video! Your breakdown and discussion were so good, and every point was well researched and articulated! I definitely enjoyed listening ❤
You're video was SO good! Thank you for expressing so many of my own thoughts so well!
My novel was a finalist for the 2023 Indie Ink Awards in 11 categories. Has anyone ever heard of the Indie Ink Awards? Obviously, it's not as prestigious as the Hugos, not even close. But do I use that information to market my book? ABSOLUTELY. I greatly appreciate any awards that give authors a chance to help their book stand out in a crowded marketplace. To me, a Hugo nomination has a similar effect as Neil Gaiman giving a nice promotional quote on your cover.
I can see that- something that might entice readers over the edge just like a good blurb
Bookborn has the best video essays. I always learn so much!
Thank you 🥹
The Hugo Awards WAS a prestigious award...it means less than nothing to me now, in fact I'm less inclined to buy a modern book if it has won a Hugo.
Yep in the 90s, I found books by browsing a book store shelf and if I found something with a Hugo and/or Nebula winner sticker on it, I bought it. But by the 2000s I found the award winners were no longer inline with my tastes. I still sometimes found myself liking that year's best novel (loved Ancillary Justice for instance) but most of the time, the winners were nowhere near as good as all the overlooked stuff I read that year. Then the whole puppies fiasco came along and I have pretty much ignored the awards ever since.
I don't even know this puppies fiasco you speak of....but, apart from that, that was basically my experience with hugo awarded books growing up[ in the 90s] too!
I don't know that I ever specifically picked a book out and brought it home just because of a hugo or nebula award sticker, but if a book I picked up had one I did notice that and think "Oh, cool!" / felt like that helped me keep a little more in touch with what people other than me were maybe reading, and I probably did sometimes reach for books with those awards out of curiosity to see if what they were about was something I was interested in reading or not. And I would sometimes notice if an author of a book I'd already read and enjoyed later announced somehow that this book had won an award, which sorta made me feel a little bit extra validated for having enjoyed it or something in some ways.
But at some point in the 2000s or 2010s, I basically stopped even noticing hugo or nebula awards at all, because they often just didn't seem to involve the books I was actually/actively reading myself. And I was typically just picking books up that contained certain things I wanted to read at that time(like fiction with vampires &/or werewolves or dragons whatever) or were written by an author whose writing I already knew that I enjoyed specifically for their writing and not just for whichever specific story or characters I'd read from them before OR I was just getting book recs from friends/family//book-bloggers. And then life-stuff got away with me for a while and eventually I basically just stopped reading entirely for a few years after 2012 or so, until I very gradually started on-&-off dipping my toes back into it again when my niece got just old enough to start reading pretty avidly on her own and wanted somebody to talk to about books & such and I stumbled across booktube at some point between 2015 to 2019 as well.
I'd honestly almost completely forgotten that the Hugo awards even existed altogether until this latest controversy reminded me it did exist , and I'd never learned how it was actually run or determined / voted-on // or whatever, until now. 😅🤭🤭😁🙃👀🫣😶🤦♀️🤦😅🤣 LOLL
Back in those days, I assumed the award winners were more stuff like an English teacher would force you to read. It definitely wasn't a positive to get me to buy it and might have even been a slight negative.
It definitely has influenced my picks in the past! More like I'd see an interesting cover, or see an interesting blurb and then ALSO see it won an award, and that would often push me over the edge.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who looks at the Hugo (or Nebula or...) award winners and nominees from past decades as one way of seeing what was popular and admired and talked about in those earlier eras. And seeing that something won a major award gives me a nudge toward making it a little more likely that I'll want to read it myself.
I also love looking at awards from decades ago - it's an intersting window, like you said, and a lot of amazing novels can be found there
I used to care a lot about the Hugos. It was a great place, along with the Nebulas, etc. to find a great SF to read. The books nominated usually had thought provoking ideas and were far better than your standard SF novel. However, lately there is a certain type of novel that they are promoting and unless your novel is written by the type of writer or about the type of topic they're looking for, they won't nominate it. So basically, no I don't care as much anymore. If the Hugos became non-bias again in the future I'll give them a look.
All awards are inherently biased towards those choosing them - no award won’t be! I think the trick is choosing an award to follow that aligns with what you also like in the space
@Bookborn I think sometimes people get mad when an award shifts its focus on narrower criteria.
There is nothing wrong with the Oscar's focusing on Hollywood "artistic" cinema instead of the crowd pleasers. But if you were using it as a listing of popular movies to watch than its not as useful anymore. Instead it's a list of the best American middle brow mid budget films.
I think the Hugo's are similar in that the genre it considers is now a bit smaller and less crowd pleasing. There is nothing wrong with that, but it can confuse people into thinking that there is some conspiracy or something.
I think a large part of awards is “prestige”. The same thing for desirable slots like the New York Times Bestseller Lists. It’s a marketing tool, that may pay off with a certain audience that cares about those things, but doesn’t have as much impact as it may once have, where reviews were more gatekept by journalists and editorials. I think these awards have less impact as communication has become easier, and people rely less and less on singular places for what is considered “good”.
Very true ~
When I found out how New York Times bestsellers were calculated it def disappointed me, ngl lol
Wo needs the Oscar's when you have Rotten Tomatoes? Why bother with the Nebua or Hugo when I read a thousand reviews, genre descriptions, videos, and aggregated statistics instead? These awards were genuinely useful prior to more modern mediums of review.
Here's a little story from this writer's POV. I got an MA in literature back in the early 00s. At that time we needed to write a thesis, basically a small book of criticism. As a creative writer working on an academic work, I was a bit of an outsider, at least I felt so, and there were a lot of feelings of insecurity and imposterism. Well, in a nutshell, I won the "Best Thesis" award (voted on by the faculty) out of 10 or so other works. I remember a professor who wasn't a fan of my "style" say, "Well I guess he's not full of shit after all." For a writer to prove power wrong is an amazing feeling.
Time passes and I've learned that while awards are a significant achievement--even at a botched Hugo it's worth it honor those who have won--they are not representative of anything, for we write against an army of gatekeepers, and what rises to the top is a fine cream, but it is an arbitrary cream.
My published books thus far are non-fiction (fiction coming 2025) but I can say from experience that the institutional validation and “prestige” of a handful of writing awards for my essays and cultural criticism increased Big 5 interest in me as an author (and likely my first advances.) My novelist friends who have swept BIG literary awards have swung doors wide open for movie options, well-funded book tours (WAY more sales, etc) It feels very generational: older people in publishing, the ones with kingmaking powers and budgets, can digest and understand awards as valuable, they have a harder time grasping online groundswells of fans, booktok, a solid online presence, and the engaging personalities of authors and willingness to generate sales with new forms of promotion.
I think a problem for many awards is that over time, the underlying motivation for nominations may shift from strictly ‘best accomplishment’ to where other considerations also start to matter, e.g. being marketable, representation etc.
A prestigious award can only be exploited that way for so long before it becomes empty.
Great video with some really good research! It's so useful seeing quotes in context. I wonder how the internet and social media has changes the sales game.
That was an interesting view of the Hugos from someone on the outside as seen through a consumerist lens...let me express mine from the inside with a community point of view...
(Full disclosure first...Although I have no connection to the Hugo Awards, a number of the people involved with the Chengdu Hugo controversy are people I have know for decades. One of the Guests of Honour, Robert J. Sawyer, is a long time friend of mine, so I am admittedly biased in this discussion.)
Those of us who have been involved with Science Fiction Fandom, those of us who run conventions, published fanzines & APAzines, and run the awards like the Hugos and Canada's Auroras are all volunteers. That is not something that can be said for most well known awards out there. We *know* that the Hugo Award is a popularity contest, and that it is not just about books, it is about recognizing the outstanding work of people involved with the SF Fandom community, which includes authors. That is why in addition to the book and shorter works Hugos, there are also awards for artists, both professional and amateur, for fan publications, writing and other works of commentary. In fact, your channel would be probably be eligible for the Best Fancast Hugo, which is seen as an audio/visual fanzine. Your style of commentary has appeared in SF Fanzines for almost as long as the genre has existed! So you are continuing a long tradition...keep up the good work!
If you want a more literary award in the genre, that would the Nebula, which is professional SF&F writers awarding the works that they think are the best in that year, or maybe the Locus Awards, which are handed out by the SF publishing trade publication, Locus. Another would be the World Fantasy Awards.
Also, just a note:
Worldcon attendance is by >membershipmember< of an event has has investment in the event, and this is even more with Worldcon. Having a membership in the event means more than just being able to attend. Those include the one being discussed, nominating & voting for the Hugo Awards, as well as selecting the site for an upcoming Worldcon. That membership also gives you priveledges...discounts on future Worldcon memberships, progress reports, etc. This is very different from your subject of comparison, sports fans. You don't see the fans with tickets to a Superbowl voting on the location of where the next Superbowl is happening, do you? 🙂
Thank you for a look from the other side! I really appreciate the deep knowledge you bring!
I suppose my question is: I know that Worldcon *calls* their ticket a membership, but essentially, nobody has to read everything to vote - nobody is checking up on that. I wonder the spread on investment in the members each year, I'm guessing it varies. Although, considering you have to be more in the know than average to seek out a worldcon membership, perhaps more people are taking it seriously than average.
@@BookbornIt's not a matter of calling a "ticket" something else...Buying a Worlcon membership is essentially joining a club for a year or more, and once a year, the club has a big get together. It not a commodity that is sold to "others", membership is inclusive, making you part of the community. SF Conventions, before the advent of giant commercial events like Creation Con and Comic Con, were all about community, not selling a product to a consumer. An example of this is that writers, editors and artists did *not* charge for signing their autographs at SF Conventions. Until you understand the difference between commodity and community, you can't really understand the magnitude what happened and how it will affect the community.
Not everyone at Worldcon votes for the Hugos. As for how many read all of the nominated works...that varies with the Catagory. Generally, though, people who want to vote for the Hugo Award will make an effort to read all the works. Also know that there are two types of Worldcon memberships, Attending and Supporting. The Supporting membership is for those who want to be able to vote, but for some reason cannot attend. So there is a great deal of community investment in the award.
For the novel, I would say that most of the voters have read all of the novels, especially now that some of the publishers make ebook versions of the finalist novels available for free to Worldcon Members...same goes for some the shorter form works. Membership *has* its privileges! 🙂
It is not unusual for people in SF Fandom to read at a book a week, if not more. Myself, I can easily read two or three books a week, depending on circumstances. So reading speed is not an issue. There is also the fact that it is a community award, so naturally the books that most people have read will purculate up towards the top of the nominations list. Add to that, there is the way voting for the Hugos works...on the ballot you rank from 1 to however many the books...so your favourite book you would rank 1, the next one you like 2, etc., and you don't have to rank all of the novels,, although the system works best if you do. Add to that there is the "No Award" choice where if you feel that none of the novels are worthy of the Hugo Award that year, you would rank "No Award" #1.
Or to put it another way, many Worldcon Members not only see the list of Hugo Award finalists as a curated list works to read, but also as a chance to get free books!
As for having to be more in the know to get a Worldcon membership? True, but with average attendance in the 5,000 range, that is not exactly hidden. 🙂You should get out to a few fan run SF book oriented conventions! As you are in the US, there is bound to be one in your neck of the woods, or not to far away. Or go to the Worldcon in Glasglow, Scotland this year...if you channel is your job, you could probably write off most of the trip. Or, if you don't want to travel outside the North American Continent, there is the NASFiC, or The North American Science Fiction Convention, which is held whenever Worldcon is outside of North America. This year's NASFiC is in Buffalo, NY, July 18-21, 2024.
I don't think for a lot of people that it's about boycotting. At least for me, this invalidates the Hugo Awards for at least quite a while. I'm not going to be using it to select books. In that small way, they've already lost some power and influence.
Yeah, I just see a lot of vocalization about boycotting! If enough people view them as meaningless, then it feels that ultimately a sales effect wouldn't be noticeable and their reputation would finally peter out. On the other hand, publishers are often behind the times and may continue to offer opened doors/bonuses even if the general fan consensus is that they don't matter. It's hard to tell!
Recently it seems to be a three-way battle between what is supposed to be award-worthy: actual great SFF, "literary" (a.k.a. not fun to read but with artistic merit) SFF, and promoting a certain "message" (said in the voice of the Critical Drinker). Unlike Hollywood, the last one hasn't fully gained ascendancy, but still has enough input to ensure that the nominee lists will include books there for no other reason than that certain boxes have been checked. I'm not going to say that none of the books that have won recently have been undeserving, but the days of universally acclaimed stories that stand the test of time filling the nomination lists and winning Hugos seems to be long past.
It seems somehow kinda weird and almost oxymoronic, to me , for you to class "artistic merit" under 'literary' and 'not fun to read' for some reason.... 🤔😅😅🫣🙃🤷♀️🤷👀 Not entirely sure why. But... I think most people typically would class "artistic merit" and "fun to read" together (and 'literary'/'not necessarily quite so fun to read' .. but somehow important or relevant &/or otherwise 'mattering' or 'making a difference/impact somehow' if that even makes any sense) instead?? Or maybe that's just me and my own weird misperceptions or something. IDEKK😶😁 Loll
But, apart from that, I would generally agree there are for sure some differing contentions going around out there about what does or doesn't make fiction that is truly great and/or should be read or not these days.
Ironically i'd started scripting a similar idea on awards with the goodreads hype and a Reads With Rachel video on readers not trusting certain reviewers or review aspects. But you touched on a lot i hadn't considered.
And also SAME about trying to find supporting evidence! I took to going to book stores and the book sections of thrift stores to just ask people browsing like the awkward mess that I am. Scientific? Not really. Helpful? It was for me. :)
Ok but I love that you just asked people. What was the consensus?
A surprising amount said that if they see any award displayed on the cover was an immediate turn off from reading the book. While it wasn't a majority, I was still amazed how often someone cringed when thinking of the answer or rejecting a book with it.
The majority of people i awkwardly went up to said they don't usually notice if there is an award on the cover if it's not prominent, or they weren't aware it was nominated until they'd already begun reading it and started to talk about the book. The only ones the general public assumed won awards were the viral titles because of how often they heard the name, even if they themselves hadn't read it yet.
In the dozens and dozens asked over the span of about 2months, I typically found that librarians (employee or volunteer) were the ones most familiar with what books won/were nominated for any awards. While a handful of people randomly through bookstores, thrift stores, and libraries were aware. Most said they picked up a book because the title or cover caught their attention and then either went into reading the first page or the back blurb before deciding -- with about half mentioning that if they thought someone they knew had read it, they were more likely to pick it over another book@@Bookborn
Sorry about the short essay, lol
I got excited to share...
Wow. You really earn respect. Balanced, researched, articulate, and, perhaps most importantly, aware of your own biases. Very well done.
Thanks for the spectacular info! This was a great peak into the world of lit. awards, and it's interesting to see behind the curtin.
This was such a good breakdown of the Hugo's and of awards in general. So much has changed because of online shopping!
22:38 The musical Hamilton says; "Legacy. What is a legacy? It's planting seeds in a garden you never get to see. I wrote some notes at a beginning of a song someone will sing for me."
As always, Hamilton knows whats up
Such an interesting deep dive, thanks bookborn!
Great video. Congratulations! I am from Brazil and can assure that the local SFF publishers prefer to translate US books that were adapted to the screen (movies/series) or award winners. Recently, I think the booktube hype is getting influential in this matter too.
It's a fascinanting theme. To understand how these awards work. Thanks for the research and info.
I think the Hugo’s have benefitted this year from the controversy in terms of reach. More people are now more aware of the award’s selection process and now I think there will be more participation in the voting pool at Glasgow’s awards this year. I think wait and see what the committee’s do to rectify the mistake is probably the best option. Boycottting them ain’t gonna do nothing because you’ll just devalue the award in the eyes of the public even more, which will be immensely hard to recover considering how our habits have changed
Speaking of that, absolutely our book buying habits have changed. I, like you would LOVE to see some numbers to back up all those claims. Sadly, I don’t think we’ll ever get them because publishers.
Maybe we need an indie to get into the Hugo’s to figure it out, but that would likely be another confounding factor.
We sort of got Travis Baldree....he was nominated anyway... lmao maybe I need to go force him to talk to me about it 🤣
I wish SO many more industries would be transparent about these things...like GIVE ME THE TV SHOW NUMBERS!! I want the data! I want to know! But then they can't pretend things are more successful than they are
@@Bookborn they gotta preserve the illuuuuusion
I think you're totally right about the Internet changing things. You look at a book like Ender's Game which was a Hugo (and Nebula) award winner in 1986 and is certainly one of the most prolific SFF books of the 20th century. Compare that to Words of Radiance which, behind Calvin and Hobbs, is the highest rated book on Goodreads of all time. It won a Whitney Award, but not really anything else of note. Yet is still one of the best Fantasy books of the 2010s. I think the accessibility to "real people's" opinions has made a huge difference in what people are reading now compared to 20-30 years ago, but like you said, only time will tell.
I’m super curious when the shift happened or how it happened. The Hugo’s are definitely awarding different types of SFF now - which I don’t think is a bad thing, more a neutral thing; but I wonder why or how it happened. For example, I could never see a book like Goblet of Fire winning a Hugo today (ignoring any controversy surrounding the author. I mean just the book itself). GoF was insanely commercially successful, and a children’s book to boot. That would be like WoR being nominated, like you said, and that never happened or probably wasn’t close to happening haha
@@BookbornNo, it's not the internet, it's an ideology, it's always the same ideology. A certain, sexist, racist, victimhood cult, that really likes to take over institutions, and then rule from the inside out. The Hugo awards give awards to the non-white, the non-male, and if they are white or male it's because the characters aren't white or male (an extreme rarity as a white person writing about that will usually be called a racist or cultural propriator and that kind of stuff.)
Comradery can trip up the tongue. Enjoyed your analysis as usual. I've never really liked critically acclaimed movie and award winning books haven't always appealed to me, so I pay no attention to such things.
Fair play forn the deep dive into trying to varify claims and find the actual data!
Thanks for another great take!
As a media consumer, I don't give any credence to the vast majority of awards, especially when the process is 1) obfuscated from the public and 2) chosen and awarded by anyone other than the general public. Over my lifetime, I have found that my preferences don't tend to align with those that are subjectively judging art. "Oscar bait" films, for example, tend to be pretentious and cover ground I don't usually care to engage in. Add to that the fact that much of my preferred media is completely ignored by the vast majority of these organizations, and I just don't find these types of awards to be relevant to me.
That said, I think awards would definitely matter to those who receive them, because recognition IS important, and at a bare minimum, such awards raise awareness of the nominated and winning works.
I had an entire section on oscar-bait in here that I cut out for brevity sake. I think the concept of oscar bait is so fascinating, especially since it's been statistically studied (with wild results) and because it's so openly talked about and known. In the book space, it seems we talk more about "awards becoming politicized", which is weird and not very descriptive, especially considering Sci-Fi is KNOWN as a genre that is very politicized in general. Maybe we need to just start talking about "Hugo-bait" lol
Honestly, awards in general is irrelevant now. I never read a book based on whether it won an award. They’re just popularity contests at this point. Not just books either.
Awards matter as much as people give creedence to them.
I think merit-based awards, whether they are for film, television, music, or books, are fun to follow but I have come to not really care about them as a literary standard or marker. Speaking purely from personal perception: if the award is widely open to a voting pool (i.e., public), the nominees alone seem to be more often than not chosen, let along winners awarded, based on popularity among the voters or, if the more isolated to a selected or member committee, chosen and awarded based on campaign. Maybe I'm just jaded and disillusioned.
As someone who has been buying books for myself for 35 years. I can honestly say I've never bought any book because of an award it has won at least directly.
I typically pull away from award books but do gravitate towards books with adaptations.
They'll always matter to authors because of the validation. I'd give up a lot for a chance to win a Hugo. The closest I'll ever come is that my college and grad school roommate won a Hugo - that's the closest I'll come to greatness.
Who was your roommate 👀
@@Bookbornsorry I thought I responded to this. John Chu, who won for Best Short Story in 2014 and also won a Locus for Best Novelette (different story). Neither of us wrote fiction in college, which makes it funny.
1) The early "martial awards" of the Hellenic worlds were also acccompanied by literary ones. Same levels & types of prestige.
2) The Nobel Prize for literature has had its share of problematic controversies.
3) Sales: what about the effects on future publication deals? Do they affect numbers of future works? Better publishing deals can lead to better advances & publishing? And when sales don't back them up?
4) Getting hold of dead tree copies--I recommend, also, exploring Inter-Library Loans where possible.
5) To paraphrase Chris: Brennan--"Metrics are a curse." Marketing online changes are essential, especially if payola is added to the mix &/or influencers.
6) "Hugo award winner" = "eye candy"?
7) Access to data; to what extent is it user-pays? Locked behind paywalls? Elsevier-type malarkey?
8) Pro-tip: a Hugo is not an appropriate item when in need for a dado or a Daddo, regardless if your name is Andrew, Cameron, Lochie or the other two....
I have definitely bought books based on a Hugo or Nebula award win. I looked up Hugo winners on Google. A win could mean the difference of buying one book over another. However, that’s only true for the first sixty years of Hugo’s. The last decade I feel the Hugo’s , like all awards , are becoming deluded with politics and popularity. So most awards aren’t as important these days. Sad but true. This watering down of quality is mostly due to the influence of the internet .
The 4-horse chariot race was arguably the post political award at the Olympics. It was dominated by the Spartan aristocracy because participation was so expensive-even one horse was a luxury item.
I'm reminded of the story of how Out of Africa (1985) didn't fare too well at the box office UNTIL it dominated at the Academy Awards, including winning the Oscar for Best Picture. I say it's a "story" because I'm not sure how true it is, it's just an anecdote and I don't remember where I even heard it. But even if it's true, I think it's an outlier re: the impact awards have on views/sales/readership/etc. But of course that was before the internet, where such mainstream TV events as the Oscars were the only way to learn about certain movies. My point is: it's a complicated subject for sure!
So I think there is actually some proof that being nominated for best picture at the Oscar’s does increase viewership quite a bit (idk if that’s changing now with the diversification caused by streaming). I do think in this way movies and books are fundementally different: one takes a LOT more time commitment. Movies are around 2-3 hours of time/ a single night. An SFF book for the average reader will take anywhere from a week to a month to complete. I wonder if that affects that sort of stuff
Just here to hear about my homie Maslow
The only reason to come here tbh
I don't follow awards at all but I loved the deep dive! 😁
I'm gonna go with your excellent previous reference video on Book Awards: "Victor Hugo would be appalled....if he is the namesake! Oh wait, it’s Hugo Gernsbacher, publisher of Amazing Stories! I say go for Locus (readers) and Nebula (SFF writers non profit association)!"
Ah, I do pause and say "cah-mah-rah-dree" or go with "comraderie" (comrade)! I think film awards and film events are actually signficantly satisfying and inspiring for reading SFF! Like LotR and DUNE. For films, there are several different almost political and even starkly different priorities and then there rare agreeances across the board on what's "best" in life, as defined by Conan the Cimmerian (ehem, hard C, I insist). I've come to the quick conclusion to dodge the Hugo's if i really want to be as sincere as possible in finding what i would love to read and what is best, again. No-go on Hugo, I got way too many other fascinating books of many genres and (ehem, intensive) purposes to read that I actually want to read.
It's interesting... I don't have anything of value to add really. Great video.
I think personally, I fall to the-sticker-made-me-buy-it on occasion, but it's usually for silly reasons. Like most recently I read Klara and The Sun because I needed a book title with the letter K for a challenge, and I didn't know how to pick one. The fact that this author had won a nobel prize was what sealed the deal, and it was a sticker on it that said it. So I think these types of awards do sway us in some capacity. I didn't know anything about this book, I hadn't even heard of it. But I needed it for a prompt and I wanted to not waste my time reading a bad book, so the sticker helped me in that capacity. (P.S. It was a very good book)
I live for the applause.
My two cents... if I see a book that sounds interesting and I know they've won a Hugo... it might give me that boost to pick it up to see what the hubbub is, but if the book doesn't sound interesting in the first place, it's not going to make me buy it. And yes, I've been way more influenced by my fellow booktubers (glances at the copy of The Way of Edan on the shelf behind me) than any award.
Since this is your latest video I want to do a book recommendation; Cradle by Will Wright it’s an truly amazing and original series with 12 books in the main series set in a multi series universe ( like the cosmere ) I haven’t read the other works set in the same universe yet but for me cradle was an amazing read ( other series you might like are red rising series and suneather series just to name some )
I do like to keep an eye out on what's winning awards. I'm not sure how big a factor they are in my own decisions, but it's probably not nothing. They definitely matter less in today's world. Curation mattered so much pre-internet. The forms of that curation have simply changed. Measure something like winning a Hugo to being seen with Taylor Swift, or something like that. I think there's a wider conversation to be had about where people decide to get information from nowadays too. I'm sure the big prize relevance has diminished, now that we have so many opinions out there.
I think award shows in general have been getting more disconnected with mainstream people for years. The Grammy’s is the only major award that regularly awards popular content. I think many of the people who vote for awards inherently look down on popular content and refuse to vote for anything mainstream, regardless of how good it is.
There are exceptions here and there, but in general, mainstream books don’t win the Hugo, especially recently. Is the Hugo truly awarding the best in science-fiction/fantasy when none of George RR Martin, Brandon Sanderson, Terry Pratchett, Robert Jordan, Robin Hobb, James S A Corey, Blake Crouch, and Andy Weir have ever won best novel? I say no.
I actually had to google if Terry Pratchett has never won a hugo because that did blow my mind a bit. He apparently won for a related work, but shocking he never won best novel. I knew the others hadn't won one... it's interesting, they've awarded some "post" hugos, where basically they award a book from a while ago (I think they gave one to LOTR, for example). I wonder if in the future we'll get one of those for ASOIAF, which influence cannot be denied at this point on the genre.
Pratchett never won a Hugo?!? Blasphemy!
He never won for best novel. A biography on his life, which was based on his memoirs, just won for related work. I’d say the Hugos are a bit biased towards science fiction, but even so, it’s surprising how many of who are considered the best fantasy authors and what are the best fantasy book series have never won this award.
I didn’t even know there were book awards until this whole situation
One not to be scoffed at benefit of the Hugo and Nebula awards pre-Internet era was that those were the books that would get translated from English to other languages.
Other best selling books would sometimes see translations as well, but not nearly as reliably as award winners
An outlier in that regard was of course SirTerry Prattchet, whose books kept being translated and consequently underselling to the Dutch market.
Likely because 95% of the people interested in those books wanted them in English, had loong since ordered them from the UK (even before Amazon) and gifting the translated version to family members saying "The English version is way better" only goes so far.
Try explaining that to marketeers who see this best selling author underperforming in that one foreign market though.
I've never bought any book because of BookTok or BookTube.
I buy every Hugo winner*, and many of the nominees, and I've gone back as far as the 60s to buy them. So yes, my buying habits are directly impacted by the Hugos. Those aren't the only books that I buy, but they guarantee a sale to me.
*No, I'm not going to go track down They'd Rather Be Right.
I like the Oscars but my SFF tastes are less niche than the prominent awards, while my music tastes are more indie/alternative. To each their own, I suppose.
As a super competitive person who loves sports, I don’t care about awards like the Oscars, Grammy’s, Hugo, etc. I typically don’t like most of the winners of these awards. There are controversies in sports: paid off judges in figure skating as an example. Humans want to be acknowledged for the achievements, so we will always have awards. What I can’t stand is giving people awards for just showing up.
A lot of you will not like this but: it’s hard to get upset about works being excluded for political reasons, when for the past ten or so years so many works have been awarded *for* political reasons…
Some animal side of me definitely likes the thrill of winning awards. But then, how are awards decided? Usually popularity or some cabal choosing what they like. And I've long rejected popularity contests, and if I'm using some representative for my tastes, then I'm just going to find someone on my own.
Honestly, awards have never meant anything to me when choosing a book to buy/read. It just doesn’t matter to me. At most, I will see the award on the book cover and think “huh, cool,” and then promptly forget it. If I really liked the book, might go look the award up to see what it was for. But that is more of a “does this award have anything to do with why I loved it?” It doesn’t change anything for me though. It may not be fair considering all that actually going into these awards but I have always condensed them down to politics and popularity contests; and that has no impact on my personal enjoyment of the book. I find these kind of awards more interesting from a human study viewpoint than as a way to find a great book. 🤷🏾♀️
I imagine the Hugo makes a difference for the author, but as with most awards, just because someone is designated the winner does not mean the book is any good. Some of the worst books I read last year were Hugo winners. This was also cute too. I can't say the world rural. 🤣 Here's assistance on that topic: comradery and the pronunciation is /ˈkämradrē/.
"Comradery" but you gave it a good effort.
“Camaraderie”
Come rod uh reeeEEEEEEE
😁
If award stickers didn't boost sales the publishers wouldn't do it.
Hmmm see I think that's a common fallacy. Stickers cost them literally NOTHING to put on a book - they aren't physical stickers, it's just a part of the book design. There's no reason *not* to do it, and so even if it had the smallest measure of effect, I can see publisher stil ldoing it. Especially if we think long term - maybe it used to have a huge effect, but has less of one now, and publishers are still relying on it. There has been a lot of discussions on how publishers are behind the times in a lot of ways...
Awards, particularly those with a long history or associated with critical acclaim, can influence the purchasing decisions of libraries and schools. This can lead to bulk purchases, significantly increasing sales.
Publishers often increase marketing efforts for award-winning books, using the accolade in advertising, on book covers, and in promotional materials. Bookstores and libraries are also more likely to feature these books prominently.
The Hugos were never intended to represent fantasy. They were intended to represent Science fiction.
I think award matter, maybe some of them. I know each book I read that was a Pulitzer winner was excellent. It's always top notch but they are usually biography or history and are fact based.
I will be honest. I never heard of Hugo Awards until today. So I guess they indeed don't matter.
In the long run awards don't matter.
Camaradery?
Maybe don't hold Hugo's voting in a country ruled by a repressive totalitarian regime. And screw the internet. Go to a bookstore. It's good for the economy and the soul.
Validation is an interesting topic. My wife needs it, but wants it to be, in general, completely honest. While I see it as a poison. I don't want validation as it takes away from the deed itself. In my eyes anyway. Like, aren't doing a thing because it's right or good, you are doing it because you want praise. I saw that alot growing up and even more now.
I have discovered lately that if a book has won any kind of literary award (Hugo, Stoker, etc), then I'm probably not going to like it. Many of these books are written for literary snobs, many of which don't even like the genre that they're writing in. They're not fun or entertaining or even thought-provoking. They're not written for an audience. They're written to impress other snobby writers like themselves.
We warned you about this with the Ssd Puppies
idk why I needed to be warned about sad puppies I knew about it lmao
@Bookborn The Sad Puppies were the warning. They were a protest of books being made ineligible for political reasons, all if which were right of center. The Sdd Pupp Slate sought to have books nominated based solely on quality of work. As such, the books that they nominated ran the whole political spectrum. Marco Klos is a Leftist. I am not. I do like and read his books. He refused to accept his award because he was on the Sad Puppy Slate. Cultural Marxism is a rot in society. It will not allow opposing viewpoints to be heard. Whether Sad Puppies, Gamer Gate, or current state of film, it must be denounced. Diversity of viewpoint should be championed. You noted that the the most current quote you found for a positive Hugo impact was 201q. It's not a coincidence this is pre Sad Puppies.
Yes, I think awards matter. However, I think they only matter when they go to those that have truly earned them
Hugo has been a freak show for a long time. Look at the strange books and people who have been getting this award for the last decade.
Meritocracy is a myyyyyyyyth, baybeeeeee!!!
Hugos used to be the most prestigous award. Now they are just participation trophies.
So YT said it deleted my comment... idk why. Anyway let me try again.
I am an average reader who pays no attention to the "personalities". I just want good books. I tried to read Hugo nominees a while back and didn't like any of their books. So I stopped paying attention. I've gotten to the point that if I see a book won any award, like the Hugo or the... Nebula. I think that's the name of the award. If I see they won those I'll actively not read that book. That's how much trust I have in awards. Less than none.
RUclips and other online sources have made professional critics and reviewers largely irrelevant, including awards and award shows. People want to see fans talking about books, films, etc. that they love. Also, I detected a 'flall' in there, LOL.
I think, if professional critics had casual/engaging online presences and full transparency about exactly what their qualifications were to make them "experts" in that field(like what their experience with and/or education in the subject actually was/is/ and where/why/how or whatever), and if their award selection process + criteria / award granting ceremony or such were streamed online if not live at least actually with active enough updates along the way throughout the journey for fans to feel a part of it or something....then _maybe_ more fans might care a little bit more. 🤔🤔 😅 But, who knows, that's just me completely guessing.🤷🤷♀️🤷🏻♂️ 😁 Lol
I think professional reviewers, especially ones with credentials, can hold a different function than fans. Like, someone within the industry, who is a writer, might look for different things, and that can be super interesting and useful. Whereas a regular person or fan reviewing, gives a different sense of a book.
I'm releasing a chat I did with Ken Liu about this subject next week, and as a spoiler for what he says that I thought was incredibly insightful, he said that awards reflect more on the person giving them than on the person receiving them. I think that is SO true with these book awards.
@@Bookborn YES! All very true~
Noice, that sounds like a pretty great quote , I'll have to look forward to that video soon then. 🙂💖
I agree partially; but I also don't think being a journalist on a news site necessarily says anything about credentials. Writers are a different story. They know the struggle and conquered it.
Are there awards for Booktube creators?
Aren't awards good marketing material. Winning any award might help to open some doors for books and writers
I cover this extensively in the video lol
Is follow Bookborn awards! Partly because the name is awsome and partly because you are awsome :) 😅
To clarify i Belive more in the culture of choose curators rather then some stuffy people following criterias based on norms and morale
Honestly which metrics are they even looking at? It seems so random. These awards has lost quite a bit of credibility in my view.
But of course it still comes with a lot of prestige to win an award - and most regular people don't really know or care about the things going on behind the scenes.
Maybe a solution could be, that one or more of you guys (the medium / big youtube channels) in combination with an external partner (who could fund the whole thing) could create an award? Because the Nebula and Hugo awards are just not - it - anymore.
I mean there is the World Fantasy award which is a panel of judges, and the Nebula is other authors and people in the industry, and the hugos are fan voted - although once again, it seems those fans are a small subset. I think it's perhaps that worldcon isn't like super well known to the general populace or something? Because it definitely seems the books that win aren't always aligned with other metrics of what's doing well. But then again, I think the Hugo's have decided on some different metrics that are important to them, which is fine - the important thing is understanding what an award is awarding, and seeing if that aligns with what you like to award.
As a booktuber, I already "award" my favs by just giving them all five stars and making weird videos where I beg you guys to read them LOL
Do awards matter for creative entertainment products? Yes and No. All are subjective popularity contests and depend greatly on the demographics of the voting bloc as different demographics will like different things on average and the numbers of each demographic.
However, these awards are good selling points for the content creators. The general public sees an award had been given to this item, and that is assurance the product is good enough for purchase.
So, yes and no.
I used to care about Hugos a lot. For purely selfish reasons - it used to be a good way to highlight memorable books among thousands being published. But at some point the award went of the rails and started promoting books that are... average? I don't know. At first I was upset, but now I'm indifferent. I just don't care.
The question why things went wrong is interesting, and I don't know the definite answer. I feel that in the aftermath of puppy debacle Hugo lost its "narrowing down" you talk in the video. Old nominees and winners feel as if the community was looking for specific features - thought-provoking fascinating ideas. Modern Hugos feel like yet another popularity contest among many other similar awards. Technically they always were popularity contests, but they didn't feel that way until ~8 years ago.
You should write
This has nothing to do with awards, but...
Read the Dark Tower series by Stephen King. Just sayin'.
Over the last couple of years, I’ve come to the decision that awards like these don’t matter to me anymore. Just because it was nominated or that it won doesn’t mean it’s going to be for me.
When I read all the 2010's hugos, I found that books I was already inclined to read I liked a lot, and books I wouldn't have read otherwise I didn't like lol So yeah, they don't seem to really matter to me much anyway, other than just interest/see what's new.
@@Bookborn I wonder if that's an indication that, nowadays within SFF, there are more different kinds of books that appeal to different kinds of readers.
wheel of time talk i hate nynaeve she is dam annoying to moiraine and just annoying in general like girl get out my site please by the series and plus love the vids keeep going
it wasn’t political motivated bc all the authors have varying opinions on china. the committee just didn’t find them having any merit, it showed me how entitled authors can be bc why do you think you’re politically active just bc u made a post 😂 political active means your actually doing things not just reposting a popular tag you don’t even know abt
it’s really gross they grift this hard lol
That's actually not true, lol. Emails have leaked specifically saying they created political dossiers on the authors, and after receiving enough votes to be nominees, were disqualified for reasons that aren't related to any of the regular Hugo reasons in the rules. So it WAS politically motivated.