I believe the common argument is that modern Egyptians are Arabs rather than "OG" Egyptians, which was a misconception planted by the Victorians to dismiss modern Egyptian sovereignty over native artefacts. Even if modern Egyptians aren't descended from ancient Egyptians and are purely Arab (though the inverse is in fact true), the two peoples are still very closely related by virtue of being geographically extremely close and both being Semitic; certainly much more closely related than they are to Nikolai Caster-Waldau or whoever else was in Gods of Egypt.
Thing is, people are losing their shiz over the fact that they're filming a Black Actress in that new Tolkien series. There is ALWAYS racially motivated reasons to film someone in these regards.. Why can't they just enjoy the film? It's not as if it's going to be historically accurate. lol Wonder if there people out there who actually believe 300 is a perfectly historically accurate account of King Leonidas and the battle of Thermopylae?
@@2DRonaldo I'm just curious about the concept of black dwarves. They live underground, it's not that they need their skin to protect them from the sun
@@astrida111 I don’t know about you, but reading about one guy dying and snowballing effect the whole of europe to war is interesting. Oh, and the fact the European war was basically a whole family feud lol.
@@astrida111 History of powerful women is good but it only explains a small part of the entire history. History does not stop when there is no powerful woman in prescence. Culture is an interesting thing, but wars and crimes also shapes a part of culture too. If you think only gentle and nice things are culture, you might want to reconsider your view.
I will never understand why it is so hard for people to understand that Cleopatra was a Greek ruler who inherited power from her Greek predecessors that date back to Alexander's conquest of Egypt.
Greek ruler, well, the Lagides dynasty still adaptated quite a bit to the egyptian culture while bringing their share of traditions and stuff to the table. Sure, they are being referred to as "the macedonian" and stuff. But saying that she was greek is denying the egyptian influence on her family and upbringing, would you tell someone of irish descent that they are Irish and not american ?
To call all Africans as black or dark skinned is the same as saying all Asians look Sino-Mongolian. It's a fricking big continent populated with various and diverse people groups.
As an egyptologist I am absolutely amazed and somewhat terrified that you managed to express adequately the Ptolemaic family tree on a two-dimensional plane without summoning an Eldritch Abomination or something similar...
If modern genealogical software can handle the population that lives on almost any tiny island in the middle of the sea, ancient royalty is probably not gonna be impossible. My family tree on one side is probably a Gordian knot.
I actually think the real problem is people pretending like race wasn't an issue in the ancient world and present it as some harmonious utopia, thus completely ignoring the centuries of massacres and genocides that created empires such as that of the Romans, and completely ignoring that race played a huge role in that. Racism and ethnicity weren't the terms they used, but the reason there was intense incest and mass genocide and conquering was very much based on an ideology akin to that of contemporary racism and xenophobia today. Pretending racism wasn't a thing back then has lead to a glorification and celebration of the Roman empire, etc, and completely sterilised the brutality of its nature.
@@CinziaDuBois It really was not "Racism" as we use the term today. This goes to the OP, who rightly points out that group preference is not modern day "racism". It was a division of the "other" such as the Greeks referring to non-Greeks as "barbaros." I don't think xenophobia is a correct term, either, since it is literally an "irrational fear of strangers". The Greeks saw non-Greeks as primitive and generally inferior/uncivilized, but they were not really afraid of them, in the sense of a phobia. I think ethnocentrism is the better term for this phenomenon. The idea that our ethnicity (culture/civilization) is superior and we must impose our superiority onto everyone else.
@@CinziaDuBois No, the reason there was incest was egotistical people wanting their "bloodline" to be perfect, and to secure land(resources). The reason there was genocide, which even in Rome, there was very little, was it was an effective way to reduce populations that might rebel, and conquest is simple for resources. You decide to ignore facts to spread nonsensical racial ideals.
@@CinziaDuBois eugenics studies weren't even a thing until the 16th or 17th century, so even the concept of racism and racialism being applied as far back as the Roman empire doesn't make sense. Tribalism and ethnocentrism would most like be the cause of divisions, i.e. cultural, linguistic. They fought for resources and political control and cultural dominance. Racism and racialism as based on genetics is a pretty modern concept.
The Elizabeth Taylor Cleopatra movie even alluded to her origins. One of her lines was "as a mostly Greek thing myself". There's the allusion to that missing ancestors. As for the "too many Ptolemies", France had 18 kings named Louis.
@@barbarossarotbart I was certain there had been 19 Louis… and shamefully lost at a pub quizz because of the “how many KINGS were named Louis”… 😅 Yet, are we completely sure that Clovis wasn’t a misread Louis or that all the Louis should have been called Clovis? After all, one can clearly see how William can become Guillaum (and later Guillaume) in old French “font”, so why not the Clovis/Louis?
@@Vee_of_the_Weald The Legitimist claimant to the throne, the Duke of Anjou, is Louis XX for his followers (they don't recognise the French Revolution).
I think it is okay to cast someone of Mediterranean ancestry for Cleopatra, it’s historically accurate. Anyone of Levantine, Greek, Balkan, Turkish, Italian, Spanish, and North African descent could play her.
True, people today like to divide into "whites" and "non-whites" but Greeks and Turks are quite similar in skin colour, as are South Italians and Tunisians
@@charlotteillustration5778 I mean theoretically yeah, but I think some Egyptians may not like that because she’s Israeli and they occupied the Sinai peninsula until the 80’s.
This woman is doing fascist propaganda. Cleopatra was about 1/3 Greek 1/3 other Middle Eastern, and 1/3 African Egyptian. She should be played by either a modern Egyptian or a modern Middle-Easterner, not by a person with Northern European ancestry.
@@goldilox369 She's going through 1/10th of the bloodlines, the ones she can track, and disgusing it by making it complicated. About 1/3 of Cleopatra's ancestry is Greek, 1/3 is Egyptian, and 1/3 is other Middle-Eastern. She only focused on the Greek ancestors, because they are easy to track, and fit her preconceived incorrect conclusion. As another commentator mentioned, Cleopatra's sister's skeleton is available for study, and shows large amounts of Black African Egyptian ancestry.
Look at history of Poland following the testament of Bolesław Krzywousty... There are times in history compared to which war of the roses is simple story...
The Egyptians remain with us. They are called the Copts now. However, Cleopatra's ancestry appears to have been at least mostly Greek. It is important to bear in mind that the Mediterranean world once looked quite different, in terms of peoples and even climate. To imagine that Egypt was once the breadbasket of the Mediterranean may seem impossible now, but it was once true.
When people say things like: "The Greeks/Egyptians/Misc remain with us" it's usually intended to distort the issue. I see this all the time in documentaries, an assurance that the people living in a certain area today are the descendants of those from some past great civilization. The "proof" is that their genetics continue to reflect their ancestry. This is true but deceptive. It is intentionally deceptive. Sharing genes with ancestors of a great civilization is NOT the same as being of a similar genetic profile as those who built that civilization. It is an undeniable fact that modern peoples, particularly from the Mediterranean, have a mixed heritage that greatly distinguishes them from the ancestors they CHOOSE to identify with.
@@curiaregis9479 wow people r more delusional than i thought. did u just say..."The "proof" is that they their genetics continue to reflect their ancestry. This is true but deceptive. It is intentionally deceptive." have a nic 1
@@incogb6696 I suppose that's too complex for you? Let me put it in a simpler, more concrete way. Pretending a person with 15% or 20% or 30% African ancestry is the same as some group who lived in the area previous and built a civilization there is deceptive. The ancestors of the modern people are choosing to identify with a certain part of their heritage, but this part did not have this admixture, they did not have the same genetic profile. But as the mixed people in question still SHARE some genetic ancestry with those ancestors it is often suggested they are genetically the same, just many generations later. This is a lie. The documentarians who say this know it will be misunderstood and that's why they do it. It's the sort of pandering and lying that is common with the global elite agenda.
I think the real question is: How on earth did one of the most intelligent and well-educated people of her time result from a family tree that made the Hapsburgs look diverse?
Not all results of incestuous union are problematic An offspring of incestuous birth can come up normal but the risks of genetic abnormalities are extremely high
Well if her granny on her dads side was a concubine, thats like 25 percent of fresh dna. Maybe thats why she was described as so beautiful, bc everyone was surprised in comparison to the rest of the lot 😂
The Ptolemys... Ptolemies? What's the plural of Ptolemy? Anyway, they married people who were not Greek only four times in their entire history. Otherwise, they stuck with Greek spouses. I'm fairly sure that we can safely assume Cleopatra looked Greek.
I like how she doesn't bring the idea of race of concubine and illegitimate together. Cause if Celeoptra 7th was darker then rest of the incest babies, wouldn't there be mention of that.
The plural should be Ptolemiei (nominative) or Ptolemion (genitive). As an Egyptian Greek from Alexandria I can confirm we stuck with our greek spouses a lot. 😉
At the same time I'm fairly sure Cleopatra didn't look like "a Greek", because in actual Greece the family trees didn't look like an instruction on how to weave a carpet.
I'll say NO in her casting because she can't act. She is attractive but is terribly stiff and one note. I would appreciate an actress that was middle Eastern and talented... ijs Hollywood likes to cast solely on looks and forget that viewers might actually like a story that was well acted too. There are plenty of attractive females who CAN act out there who deserve a chance.
Hardly controversy, it's a bunch of racists convinced caucasian history is black history and doing out of the box thinking and creative wording to make it work, such as the term African for North African with the assumption it wasn't inhabited by caucasians but the highly inaccurate "people of colour".
The bigger issue might be the fact that Gal Gadot is Israeli. Due to Egypt's current political issues with Israel, this would be controversial for contemporary Egyptians. It would be the equivalent of casting a Pakistani actor as Gandhi or casting a Japanese actor as an ancient Chinese emperor. While Gal Gadot probably resembles Cleopatra as well as almost any current actress would, it still would be controversial given the present politics.
Gal Gadot as someone who looks 'generic mediterranean' is probably a reasonable pick to play Cleopatra. One valid objection would be that she's too good looking, but that's not fatal.
Cleopatra isn't Egyptian, she ruled Egypt. Charles V wasn't Spanish, he ruled Spain. Catherine the Great wasn't Russian, she ruled Russia... Cleopatra is of Greek descent and her association with Egypt in the Egyptian psyche is a very recent thing. As the icon of Egypt that she now is, she's the brain child of poet Ahmed Shawki who published The Death of Cleopatra in 1927. If you asked any Egyptian about her before then they probably would have gone: Cleowho?
How is she not Egyptian? Ptolomaic dynasty ruled Egypt for 250 years. that is longer than USA exists. She was like 12th generation born and raised in Egypt. If you think 12 generations aren't enough to consider someone a local then your and mine definitions are very different. She was absolutely an Egyptian, of distant greek ancestry.
@@Adsin16 You mistake royals for commoners. Court life is so removed from the daily life of the people. So much so that not a single one of Cleopatra's predecessors spoke Egyptian. And while she did herself, her education was entirely Greek. Her name was Greek. Her blood was Greek since her predecessors, in their disdain for the locals, didn't mary any Egyptians. Can you then show me the Egyptian part? And for the sake of fidelity, the video is about her skin color, ethnicity. Under that light, she's entirely Greek.
@@lotfibouhedjeur Oh, it's true, they married between relatives. Something that has always been done during the different times of pharaohs throughout the centuries to preserve the purity of the blood. At least in all of the most famous Egyptian dynasties, Tutankhamun didn't look this handsome for nothing. Cleopatra is supusse to be basically a product of incest, like the vast majority of her family. So it's normal that his ethnicity is more Greek, when your parents are brothers or cusins (allegedly) you don't have many options. So yes, her ethnicity was Greek. But she was born in Egypt, in Alexandria. City founded by Alexander the Great (from Macedonia, but his ethnicity is also Greek) who conquered Egypt and proclaimed himself pharaoh; when Alexander died, Ptolemy I, also of Macedonia and the ancestor of Cleopatra, was proclaimed Pharaoh of Egypt. Alas, a new dinasty of pharaohs was born. What happened to the Ptolemaic dynasty is that they adopted the Egyptian culture and customs. That is why Cleopatra is Egyptian, regardless of her ethnicity, her culture was a mixture of Egyptian and Greek. And Greek because the whole part of Upper Egypt was basically territory colonized by the Greeks, know as the Hellenistic period of Egypt.
@@Adsin16 She was Egyptian in the same sense that the Plantagenet Kings of England were English - i.e they were born there but they weren't really culturally English and were a French family. Its not uncommon for such things to happen. Its not unreasonable to call Cleopatra Egyptian but she was still of Greek and some Persian ancestry and culturally Greek/Macedonian.
Okay, all things being considered, regarding her family tree, I think we can all agree there is only one person that could properly portray Cleopatra… Andy Serkis
@@andrabook8758 Actually no, that is not the conclusion of that video. It was said here that within the uncertainty as there is, we can still say, that Cleopatra VII was not african black. Apart from her royal macedonian and persian ancestry, there is a chance that there was also some non-royal-greek ancestry. Most likely it was still some other greek, or maybe some northen african or persian ancestry. Chance that it was a black african ancestry is the least probable. And even if so, then she would still not be a full black african.
I think the best representation of what she truely looked like are the statues that were produced during her time in Rome. These were produced by sculptors who actually saw Cleopatra. Romans appreciated a true level of reality in representation in their sculptures, obviously with some "photoshopping." The Roman sculptures produced of Cleopatra during her time in Rome show a decidedly Mediterranean/Middle Eastern appearing woman.
@@pontios2006 No they would not, most of today's balkans would be very different from the classical age. Slavs, Bulgars, Magyars, and different hordes and western barbarians(Germanic) came way after Alexander and his followers times. Islandic Greeks would make much more sense.
@@barbarossarotbart You would be surprised genocide and slavery were fairly common, especially the hordes that ravaged the Eastern Roman Empires' borders. + The greeks, migrated into Anatolia and the middle-east.
Yes but without the Middle-Eastern they were northern greeks but the Macedonians weren't necessarily regarded as true Greeks before Philip. The Ptolmies bred within their own family line for most of the reign and the only outbreeding seems to be from Anatolia which was largely ethnically Greek.
I’m absolutely floored by your ability to keep that family line straight. I had to watch the video several times, so confusing. Well done! Very well done.
I just wanna say I appreciate how not-aggressive this is. I'm not worried about "agendas" or whatever people gripe about. I just like how casual and inquisitive this is.
If you ever find yourself embroiled in this debate, there are two surefire signs that somebody doesn't know much or anything about the subject: 1) They don't know there was a lot more than one Cleopatra. 2) They don't know that the Ptolemies came from Greece, not Egypt.
@@ballenboy Language and genetic ethnicity are different things. Albanian is a relict of preRoman times as well… Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian would be relevant ethnically but utterly unfamiliar to modern audiences…
Girl, I give you A LOT of kudos for breaking down all that complicated family line. I had no idea it was sooooo mysterious and complicated. I always just thought Cleopatra was the one and only Cleopatra of her time. Thanks for sharing all that. 👍👍
She isn't 'breaking it down', she is obfuscating it deliberately. She is ignoring most of the ancestry, which comes from un-named and un-known Egyptian concubines and Middle-Easterners. The result is a person who would resemble a modern Middle-Eastern person.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 You say she is obfuscating but what you just said is exactly what I took away from her video. Besides, if so much is unknown and unnamed, then how is she to know it, lol?
Cleopatra the 6th greatest quote was as follows. "When arriving in Rome make a splashy entrance" We see her profile on a Roman/Egyptian coin. Yike's. Then again beauty is subject.
When I watched the trailer of queen Cleopatra i realised that the documentary is trying to sell us the point that Cleopatra is black rather than focusing on her accomplishments
Sadly I'm half expecting a cheap production, resorting to controversy in order to attract attention at the defendable flaws. For example, I've seen far better pillars than the ones presented... It won't be the first time.
What accomplishments? She did not lead armies in battle or conquer other nations or anything of note. Other than to seduce Julius's who forced the Egyptians to accept her as a ruler/ queen and when he died she seduced Mark Anthony to try and hold on to power. When that failed she killed her self.
4:02 this reminds me of a fascinating discussion that I had with a Korean woman. She had her DNA tested and her family made fun of her because "you're Korean, born in Korea. Why do you need to know more than that." Her DNA came back as part Japanese and a little bit Chinese her family freaked out. Based on the percentage it lined up with a probable great grandparent being Japanese and a great great grandparent being Chinese. Cut to a few years later her DNA test updated to say she was 99% Korean. Well, why did it change? Was it wrong? Probably not. What changed was where the line was being drawn between the cultures. Realistically both are actually right. Did she have a secretly Japanese Great grandparent? Probably not. More so the numbers lined up with the standard percentage of how much most Korean people cross married with Japanese and Chinese people throughout history. So where do you draw the line? Is she 12.5% Japanese, 6.25% Chinese, and 81.25% Korean because centuries ago the civilizations that became China and Japan also moved to the region that became Korea? Or is she 100% Korean because the mixing of cultures and peoples happened so long ago that you can't call those ancestors Japanese and Chinese anymore, but instead part of the tapestry of people's that would become Korean?
I mean Japan had a lot of mass rapings throughout history. That’s why having Japanese ancestry is such a touchy subject. Korean people also ancestor worship like a lot of Asia so many people have family members who were in royal courts when the Chinese invaded several times.
These tests are mostly a hoax. Nobody can say if you are 'Korean' or 'Japanese'. They can say that the type of genes you have also appear fairly often in Japan. They sometimes can roughly track your maternal line (if you are a woman) or paternal line (if you are a man). But the results are not cut and straight. The best example is a girl from the video 'SHOCKING African Ancestry DNA Results Im UPSET! Nia Hope'.
There's really a big problem with those tests in this regard. Being "16% French" or something like that makes no sense: it's not like French people are a homogenous thing or ever were close to being, nor is it that they were dropped on earth at the same time as the other groups and had no contact outside that strictly deliminated gene pool. Those gene tests are the contemporary equivalent of personality tests for people so self-obsessed and shallow that they can't have a sense of identity without a test that'd make the Lebensborn jealous
For those who don't know that Cleopatra was of Greek nationality not Egyptian . Cleopatra was a descend of the Ptolemy Pharos who ruled Egypt after Alexander the great conquered Egypt . Cleopatra was not of African or Egyptian descent .
@@christianrowbotham7386 Nationality? That's not a thing in the ancient world. And in most of the modern world what defines nationality/citizenship is mostly blood (jus sanguinis, look it up), not birthplace (like Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Colombia, China, etc.)
It's weird to me that so many people bring up the Elizabeth Taylor movie when they bring up historical accuracy and whitewashing. I'm pretty sure that when they cast Elizabeth Taylor, representation and historical accuracy weren't even a blip on the radar. They just thought "Who is hot enough to play history's most beautiful woman?" It's not really a standard to take seriously.
Explaining this to Americans is quite challenging because often they don't know the difference between race and ethnicity, let alone that your ethnicity is not a 100% guarantee that you will develop certain phenotypes. As you showed in the video, it's far more complicated than just black or white, Greek or North African. Plus, why focus on her "race", when we could instead focus on how damn incestuous her family is, it's insane!
As a general rule the loudest people tend to be the most ignorant. And Americans love to be loud about everything. So it check's out. But mostly it's just ethnocentrism. They can't see beyond their own 100 or so years of history ( if even) and the bubble of their very particular national idiosyncrasies with identity.
We know the difference. Afrocentric and leftist Americans don't. Just saying... just look at the reaction leftists had to Jame Franco being cast as Fidel Castro... Also, America has won lots of wars.
Very nice video! You probably did not know that a year ago, but your video is now pretty relevant considering the whole Netflix Cleopatra controversy going on right now!
Interesting note: "Berenice" one of the three popular girls names in the Ptolemaic dyansty, is pronounced more like "Veraneekee" in Greek, and is where we get "Veronica." Bonus factoid: Alexander the Great had a sister named Cleopatra, and as far as I can tell, is the only one of his siblings portrayed in movies or TV. I can't be positive, but I went through a lot of credits to find any other instances and have come up empty.
Which movies/TV shows have Alexander's sister in it? I'm just curious because all the ones I've seen never show any of his siblings and it'd be nice to see a version with Cleopatra in it :)
I would say fereneeke as feres (bringer) nike (victory). Medieval tradition use the christian mythology as Verum Iconos mixing Latin and greek as for true image (of the Christ)
You're right about the pronunciation of "Veraniki" what confuses some people is that Berenice used to be a fairly common girl's name until about the 1960s. I knew a couple of older women with this name as a kid.
This whole controversy about Gal Gadot portraying Cleopatra VIIth proves how race is a social construct ie totally made up. She's from the same region as egyptians (middle east), similar phenotype (dark hair & eyes, olive skin), same language group (semitic) yet she's "white" but her doppelganger from neighbouring Egypt would be a "person of colour". PS: I'm not a fan of Gadot (mostly for supporting Isreal's policy in Palestine) but she's probably the best famous actress for the role. If the film makers wanted to go more obscure but authentic route they should've cast either a coptic actress or preferably a greek actress from Saloniki region. Although I doubt that more "correct" ethnicity would make their performance better.
Yeah that's to be expected in an important area with lots of trade going through it. If we are talking pre-trade Egypt everyone probably had the same skin phenotype, but Cleopatra's time was far far past that.
Nah race isn’t a social construct, it’s biological. Look up mixed raced people waiting for bone marrow transplants. It’s very difficult to find matches for mixed race people specifically.
I've recently seen a video about Cleopatra's genealogy and possible actual looks too, so right now I'm more curious about her purported beauty more than anything else, seeing that her family tree is so...tightly knit.
Apparently commentators of the time said she was charming and intelligent (she was fluent in at least nine languages and was well versed in history, philosophy, religion, etc.), not that she was ridiculously beautiful. She also connected herself with the Egyptian pantheon
Reading through a lot of these comments...I'm just like wow. You can tell who didn't actually pay attention to the video. Thanks for condensing a lot of complicated information down into something digestible. I actually feel like I understand Cleopatra's lineage and the cultural significance of legitimacy of the time a bit better.
In middle school my teacher told us the same thing about how the Egyptians depicted all women with yellow skin and males with red. She made us color some copies of Ancient Egyptian murals to drive the lesson's point home.
I’m here learning about this because of the controversy around the Netflix docu-series. You explain the facts and historical context so well, thank you!
On the cultural side she was the first ruler of her dynasty to learn the local language. For about 250 years the leaders of Egypt spoke Greek and could not directly communicate with their subjects.
@@cisco20211 Considering the original commentator would’ve had education in the Western world (so Europe/ American continents), the amount of documentation in book for students about Ancient Egypt or others such as Ancient Persia is very little, the history books for students in school in Western countries centrically revolve around History in the eyes of Western Countries, mostly North Western European countries. So it’s actually very great that OP watches this video to get her sources about these empires and their ethnicity/heritage, cause education failed to do so
I think the deeper point is, even if she wasn't pure Greek, and had some Syrian, Persian, or what not blood in her, well these all still fall under the larger "Caucasian" umbrella.
Cleopatra: *Literally came from a family of Greek conquerors who preferred incest to intermarrying with native Kemetic peoples…* Modern Revisionists: “SHE WAS BLAAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!!!”
I love this actually someone who knows the nitty gritty of the genealogy. I think the recent casting of an ethnically Jewish actress is actually pretty accurate for Cleopatra as ethnically Jewish people are sort a mix of Southern European and Levantine Middle Eastern people.
Who are the so called Levantine people if they are not caucasian? The arabs are not from the levant. Turks are not from the levant. Egyptians are not from the levant. Mongols are not from the levant. Persians are not from the levant. That leaves one race of people who are from the Levant, the Caucasians. Everyone else is a conquerer, invader, colonizer, enslaver.
@@davidstansbury9309 Why are you laughing? Are you one of the non caucasian people who colonized anatolia, enslaving the caucasian people who's homeland that is?
I just finished making an episode about Cleopatra because of the upcoming Netflix “documentary” but I’m just now coming across this channel! Definitely placing this in the description for people to watch, as I didn’t go into this much detail! Great episode, definitely subbing❤
You are great! I would only have explained that the 'marrying within the family' was an Egyptian idea, that the Alexandrian Greeks took on, only after they conquered Egypt. The "Phaoronic family" was 'godly', and therefore, was expected to breed only within itself. This led to over 250 dynasties over 5000 years, as I'm sure you know!
This may be of interest to you if you don't know it already. DNA was extracted from the base of a skull from what was probably the most sacred part of Newgrange Neolithic site (c3200bc) County Meath, Ireland. It showed the individual was the product of 1st degree incest ie either parent/offspring or siblings.
"Books save lives, so keep reading" Sooo I was that typical smart kid who would absolutely DEVOUR books far too advanced for my age and I could spend hours and hours every day reading in any location at any opportunity. Then life happened and anxiety and poor mental health took over, (bla bla bla you know the story) Basically I lost my ability to read, I just didn't have the attention span or ability to concentrate for long periods anymore and I haven't successfully completed a book in 15 years and I HATE IT! But that glorious sentence right there, (also maybe the joint I just had lol) got stuck in my head and drove me wild to the point that I've tore through my cupboards and trashed my flat to find this book I got 7 years ago that I've been trying to read since. So I'm gonna plan it all out and get myself all comfy and work myself up to it all day, for tonight, WE READ!!! So yeah! thanks for that! I haven't felt inspired like this for years!
Oh dear, that´s 1 to 1 what happened to me, a life ago... As a child I was even punished for reading (obviously, not what I was supposed to read for school) and then, as you say, life happened, depression - you really know the story :)) I started after a (long) while with psychology books, to understand what happened with the happy girl I used to be and why. Then I read books about science, phisics, history, step by step, page by page, and suddenly I could read again! Don´t worry, it is like bicycle riding, it´s there! I whish you can make the same happy comeback as I did! Have a nice reading session!
Something similar happened to me. My mental health went downhill and I simultaneously stopped reading as much. My concentration during reading has become awful, and I’m not sure if that’s because of ADHD or pure anxiety clouding my mind. I hate it, too, because I like reading and what I get from it. Sometimes it actually irritates me as I have to read sentences over and over. I might be sharing too much, but it’s nice to know others have gone through the same. Good luck with redeveloping your reading habits! 💗
Best guess of Cleopatra's appearance in modern context would be a modern day southern European. Knowing Gal Gadot's ancestry and appearance probably the right choice. Example: Andalusian or Sicilian.
One of the weird things about being a jew is you are not white when it comes to being accepted as European, but you are absolutely white when you cast as an Egyptian queen. Nice
That is a really weird thing. I only came to know of people not classifying Jewish people as white when I was actually attacked by white supremacists on youTube a few years ago. they all said I wasn't white and I was Jewish and I "shouldn't speak of white people issues". I'd never heard of this distinction before then. Though to clarify, I'm not Jewish, but because I was supportive of Black rights activists, they tried to make me "less white" and distance me from them via assuming I was Jewish and it was baffling. But yeah, when I saw the backlash to a Jewish woman, someone from the middle east, playing a Macedonian/Persian/Iranian queen, because she was "too white", I was very confused.
This sort happens to me as a white Latina. Like my skin is darker than what some people in the US consider white person so I often get categorized as a person of color but other times I don’t. It is somewhat situational because sometimes I have white privilege and sometimes I don’t.
@@waldemarsikorski4759 Persia is just another name of Iran. Europeans usually refer to this country as Persia (the land of persian) before Rezashah Pahlavi reign, during his reign due to political views it officially changed into Iran, but keep in mind Iran is not a new name, in the oldest manuscript this land called "Iranvij" which means the land of Aryans and at least for the last 2500 years it's been called Iran. Persia is the name Greeks came up with for this country.
this I believe is the second video of yours that I've ever watched (first being a reaction to BearEars' denial of ancient Rome), I've enjoyed both, great work, thank you
@@TheFamousMockingbird or that the ethnicity isn’t a simple issue and that there are certain assumptions people make without sufficient historical context?
I think we also have to admit that Egypte was a mixed race society. When people say "it's in Africa, so everyone has to look like a Sub-Saharan African" is just incorrect. I think that when the African diaspora (wich I am a part of) is looking into their history, they meet a wall when it comes to Africa (because of the history and culture lost because of slavery), this had an effect on the people's sense of self and confidence. That is why they look at Egypte.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl steal your history and call u mutts? idk anyone in my country that thinks of y'all as mutts or wants to steal your history? where did u hear that?
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Well Egyptians are a mixed people and have been for thousands of years? It’s a fact, not an insult. People trying to steal culture goes both ways. And it also depends what time period and culture you are referring to.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Same happens to indigenous Americans. Now we see some claiming that Africans were 1st in American continents. And also some saying Africans ruled China. Its all nonsense.
Why no documentaries or shows about the ancient Nubians? That checks all the diversity boxes big companies think will make them money, and it also brings to light history that most people in the western world don't really know about.
History has depicted Cleopatra as Egyptian, but was more Greek in origin. When you own the film studio, you can hire whatever actress who can play the part the best.
Very good presentation of "Cleopatra's bloodline." I've seen some representations of what she may have looked like and she actually was quite and ordinary looking woman. What was important at the time was that she was royalty.
Well, that's not the end of the story. The incest thing was an Egyptian tradition. Greeks knew about the effects of inbreeding. They kept all the Pharaonic folklore along with the Egyptian clergy for purely political reasons. They compensated the effects of incest by a great dose of adultery. There is no evidence that the kids were theirs fathers biological children. In fact we don't see any of the congenital consequences of inbreeding among the Ptolemy dynasty. The marriages between brothers and sisters were mainly a way to avoid creating opportunities for outsiders to overthrown the dynasty. But I am pretty sure that behind the scene each spouse lived freely his/her sexual life without informing the other spouse as kings and queens always do.
I'm North African and I'm pissed off by American who think that all Africa is black. Is it important for them? Why? And why don't they, instead of black-washing, talk about African mythologies, make movies about African heroes, African history… movies and series that would take place in Africa and enlighten the world about this continent? By black-washing everything, do they mean that black Africa has nothing of interest? So racist! Edit: If it wasn't clear: I'm as white as can be, just like everyone in my region. As for my country… good luck finding a native black African ;)
You brought up some good points. I've seen examples of Hollywood turning people/characters of european history black (like Achilles or Julius Caesar), claiming they are doing so in the name of representation and everytime I just ask myself: "Why don't you just do some cool king/hero/myth/legend from outside europe once in a while? Why do you need to change characters from certain folks in order to represent another people? Do you dislike african/middle eastern/asian heroes? Do you think they don't have any?" That shit is actually quite insulting. It's as if you're saying "Oh you poor little black guys.... You got nothing of value... Don't worry, I'll share some of the cool stuff I have with you! " Seriously, am I the only one who'd like to see some mythology-movie not about greece? And thats coming from someone with greek heritage.
Great video, as usual--love your research and the way you explain the complexities of various issues. It's not your fault, but I'm still confused at the Ptolemaic family tree (or stick as it were--very few branches that don't turn back in on themselves.) I really appreciate you bring out some of the unknowns about Cleopatra's heritage, which is truly a fair and balanced treatment of the issue. Too many are simply ideologically committed to their ideas of what Cleopatra "must have" been like, and ignore some of these facts. As far as Gal Godot, I'm not sure if the controversy (in Egypt at least) is so much that she isn't North African specifically, but that she's an Israeli (who served in the IDF). Egypt may be at peace with Israel officially, but there are many who still deeply dislike Israel. And having an Israeli portray a famous Egyptian ruler--after Israel time and time again last century beat Egypt in wars--is galling to many Egyptians and their sense of pride. The fact that she was the star of Wonder Woman 1984--that already irritated may Egyptians on its portrayal of Egyptians--added more fuel to the fire of controversy. Of course, that's just Egypt. In other places, it's just part of the larger issue of how people of non-European descent believe that they are not represented properly in history and non-European people are "white-washed" on a regular basis. I think just giving the factual information, as you have, should help thoughtful people assess the situation more clearly.
Well, given the fact that Cleopatra was the end-result of several generations of Macedonian inbreeding, the last in the line of the Ptolomeic Dynasty, it's difficult to comprehend how she could possibly have been "black" (or to put it more accurately, contained any ancestry of sub-Saharan African origin...)
As the video points out there is the off chance that her paternal grandmother was of non-Greek decent, in which case a Nubian concubine wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. Quite unlikely though.
@@recurrenTopology To reiterate: It is a fact that Cleopatra was the end-result of several generations of Macedonian inbreeding (repeat, INBREEDING!) and the last in the line of the Ptolomeic Dynasty. This is established historical fact, and not a mere 'off-chance' possibility. I realise that some people don't like to allow mere facts to get in the way of a good story, but there it is.
@@MrPGC137 Did you watch the video? It isn't known who her paternal grandmother was, just that she likely wasn't the wife (and sister) of her paternal grandfather. Since the ethnicity of that women, likely a concubine, is unknown, it is impossible to definitively state the entirety of Cleopatra's ethnic makeup. It's seems most likely that her grandmother was also of Greek descent, but their exists the possibility she had a different ethnicity.
@@recurrenTopology There are artistic depictions of Cleopatra (i'm thinking of a bust sculpture and a portrait from the 1st century BC if you want to look it up) that depict her as a fair skinned woman with a greek style hairdo, with a diadem and all. Even the coins with her image depict her as a mediterranean/levantine woman.
I love to have discovered your channel, even if it was over something as ridiculous as a Tik Toker claiming ancient Rome wasn't real. You add so much to youtube. Much love from another librarian and dog mama!
This was extremely fun and fascinating. What an amazing family tree. And they certainly did keep it in the family. I honestly had no clue there had been so many Cleopatras.
Interesting video. I find the debate kinda silly because instead of using this to prove that race is a social construct dependent on politics and power, they try to force the past into a modern essentialist framework. The entire Mediterranean region challenges our conceptualization of race. Even today, there isn't consensus in where the the line is between "white" and POC. Egyptians, Persians, Turks, Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, etc have all been on both sides at different times or different places in recent history. Just where I've lived in the US (upper south/lower midwest, northern midwest, and southern new england) that line is different in all 3 areas
I don't think the ancient world was nearly as interested in the physical appearance of race as we are. They did care about legitimacy, they cared about cultural identity but it is much more questionable whether they cared about race. I also suspect that a lot of their descriptions (e.g. snowy white breast) are as trustworthy as the painted depictions where "yellow" was used to represent both Europeans but also women, so it was doing double duty as both a literal depiction (or close to a literal depiction) but also a symbolic or metaphorical depiction.
I think that depends on the time and place in history. The Mediterranean world from the Bronze Age to the fall of Rome was very multicultural in regards to black, brown, olive and pale people mixing. When the Huns turned up later on though, they were definitely regarded as if the Martians had just landed, though they themselves also appear to have been a multi ethnic coalition of Asiatic, Iranian and Germanic people.
They didn't ... and did. Not race as post-19th century America perceives it, but they did have ideas about people based around skin tone. The ancient Greeks had weird ideas about Subsaharan Africans or even Ethiopians as "burnt" people and the medieval Persians were going around saying that people from the 'extremes' of climates, with paler-than-them or darker-than-them skin were "naturally suited to being slaves"
this is very true. I dont think race was really something people thought about much until slavery became tied to race...which really only happened after the europeans decided enslaving each other was wrong. Still slavery was common throughout the rest of the world so European powers that wanted to buy these slaves needed a way to justify it so they created race theory on why it was okay. There was still racial think before that but it was more tribal, for example there were romans of all different skin colors, and Italians that weren't considered roman.
The only possible alternative explanation I've heard for Cleopatra's ethnicity is that her mother might've been native Egyptian; Cleopatra was the only ruling Ptolemy who spoke Egyptian, she heavily patronized the Cult of Isis, and who her mother might've been might be not so clear cut, so it wouldn't be too out there for a director to assume that despite being part of a Greek dynasty, Cleopatra might've had some mixed ancestry. It wouldn't be the first time for a Pharaoh having dual-heritages. However, even then she wouldn't look that different from the rest of her family and having a black woman play as her would still historically inaccurate. I get the desire for more diversity and a push for representation, but Egypt is a did and done deal. The people living there now in all likelihood looked no different than Egyptians two-thousand years ago.
I get what you are saying, but playing the Devil's advocate, the people living in Egypt now are Arabic. Ancient Egyptians weren't Arabic. They weren't Numidian, which is what black northern Africans were referred to, although Numidians did co-exist with Egyptians.
@@garymaidman625 there are two major Egyptian ethnic groups, Coptic Christians and Arabs. They both descend from the same people, their only differences being religion and language, and even then most Copts speak Arabic for obvious reasons. Egypt stopped being Egyptian near the end of the Roman Empire, but there was never a massive dying off of Egyptians or Egyptian culture, it all just changed.
Euraser will do that… as much as people want to praise the euro conquest and racial ambiguity of Egypt it is still a predominantly ethnically Black Country .. with very mixed ethnicities dated back to Eurasian conquest, pillaging and classism …
We literally have wall paintings from the tombs which show what they looked like, there was no euraser unless you are talking about about the indo-aryan invasions thousands of years before and that basically didn't effect sub-sharian people's at all. There have been population exchanges, Celts used to be more widespread, the was less Germanic influence, central Asia was populated by Caucasian people's rather and Turkic one's prior to the Mongol genocide and there were even blond haired people in China at one point, there is however no record genetic, recorded or implied of what you are talking about, if things were as racialied as you seem to think then not only would many of the events I talked about not have happened but the plan already would have been put in place in the 19th century and worked rather than introducing the medical advances which lead to the massive growth of populations you seem to think are being targeted, there was not lack of means there was a lack of motivation because no-one was conspiring as you claim.
Even if one of those *"gaps"* were of North African origin, it doesn't make her "Black" as in the recent movie. Genetically she would be very slightly NAf then - around 10-12%. The rest will still be Macedonian with a tinge of Persian and Syrian. Bottom line is, it would have still been very difficult to recognize her as a black af person visually. Therefore, Hollywood representation is still a fake, not to mention that even this is an imaginary scenario because there is absolutely no info on what those "gaps" mean.
I completely agree with you, but feel something should be clarified. The actress is not pure Sub Saharan Black African descent, but half of her genetics/DNA is Caucasian. It is inaccurate to refer to her as simply "black" when she is clearly mixed. She is much lighter skinned (for example) than many people who are of more pure Sub Saharan black descent. But yes, still not a good choice, because it is very unlikely that Cleopatra had half Sub Saharan black genetics/DNA, and was probably 100% Caucasian, which also includes Persian/Iranian, Syrian, and some North African groups/peoples. Egypt itself is quite mixed, and there is indeed some Sub Saharan Black genetics in there somewhat, but mostly in the far south, near to the border of Sudan.
Great video. Royalty Now Studios made a video of what they imagined Cleo looked like. I think this is a good example of modern documentaries and series taking creative liberties which result in people assuming that its true. From what other historians mentioned. Cleo wasn't pure white and she definitely wasn't black. The fact that there is barely any mention of her appearance means that she was a regular Mediterranean girl doing whatever Mediterranean girls do, Starbucks at Alexandria Library, Instagram dates at the Pantheon, wine and bread with the girls in Rome.
About 20 generations of mothers are known to be of Macedonian Greek heritage with along the way Iranian and Syrian genes sprinkled in and we are supposed to believe that suddenly the two gaps are Nubian women? Hmmm, I would take Occam´s Razor on this one.
Whether legitimate or illegitimate daughter, Cleopatra had to look pure Helenic Greek, we are talking about the successor of the Egyptian Throne; there were competing family member for the throne. If she was born looking different from her parents, she would have been ousted or killed by another Royal family member. The Romans certainly would have called her bastard. Also, were not the Selucids royalty at the time also Macedonian/Greek? as they were conquered by Alexander the Great, and his top generals split the conquered territories after death.
1, Cleopatra was part of the Greek Ptolemaic lineage, installed in Egypt by Alexander the Great. 2, In 2017 they began extracting DNA from teeth of mummies spanning from earliest to latest periods of Egyptian history: there's almost no Sub-Saharan African DNA in the genetic timeline till around 400 A.D. and later. 3, There exists coinage of the day, which bares her likeness - we can see depictions of her, made in her lifetime, we know what she looked like: she wasn't Black.
I never understood why people argue over the Egyptians race. I'm pretty sure it was a really diverse culture. Full of Greek, middle eastern, and African people. It was a major hub back then.
Cuz there's a lot of terminally online people who need them to be black because they wanna feel better and so they make conspiracy theories about it and then people who want to be "allies" then back their crazy with full force even if it doesn't make a lick of sense.
@@Sshooter444I wasn't referring to royalty. I was talking about the people as a whole. And you should watch the video it actually refuted what you said about royalty in Egypt.
@@burniejarvis9298 No it did not. They were probably the most incestuous lineage I've ever heard of. Regardless if they had a mix of persian and greek way back, for centuries it was "all in the family".
There was also an uproar regarding Rami Malek being cast as an Egyptian....and he's actually Egyptian.
I believe the common argument is that modern Egyptians are Arabs rather than "OG" Egyptians, which was a misconception planted by the Victorians to dismiss modern Egyptian sovereignty over native artefacts. Even if modern Egyptians aren't descended from ancient Egyptians and are purely Arab (though the inverse is in fact true), the two peoples are still very closely related by virtue of being geographically extremely close and both being Semitic; certainly much more closely related than they are to Nikolai Caster-Waldau or whoever else was in Gods of Egypt.
@@TheBc99 But there's a problem when today's Egyptians (90% of them being Arabs) try to sell Ancient Egyptian history as their own. Because it isn't.
@@TheBc99 When Arabs or mud people pay for the movies they can put whoever they like.
The West is not obligated to appease non Westerners.
Thing is, people are losing their shiz over the fact that they're filming a Black Actress in that new Tolkien series.
There is ALWAYS racially motivated reasons to film someone in these regards..
Why can't they just enjoy the film? It's not as if it's going to be historically accurate. lol
Wonder if there people out there who actually believe 300 is a perfectly historically accurate account of King Leonidas and the battle of Thermopylae?
@@2DRonaldo I'm just curious about the concept of black dwarves. They live underground, it's not that they need their skin to protect them from the sun
So what I get from this is that Cleopatra should be played by someone of incestual descent.
YOU WIN! lol best comment I've read thus far 😂😂😂
Yes! At least 3 generations of a braided family tree or GTFO!
i think if you go back far enough you'll find we are of that descent.
So she should be played by a Hapsburg.
So someone from Alabama?
I’ll never understand how anyone can call history boring. It’s the longest running soap opera going.
History about war and crimes must be the most boring shit out there. History about culture and powerful women is a 100 times better
@@astrida111 I don’t know about you, but reading about one guy dying and snowballing effect the whole of europe to war is interesting. Oh, and the fact the European war was basically a whole family feud lol.
@@astrida111 History of powerful women is good but it only explains a small part of the entire history. History does not stop when there is no powerful woman in prescence. Culture is an interesting thing, but wars and crimes also shapes a part of culture too. If you think only gentle and nice things are culture, you might want to reconsider your view.
Bethelaine1, what a terrific way to look at History. 🙂👍
@@nemumami Literaly break down to "salty about granma favorite grand child"
She didn't have a family tree so much as she had a family bush
Seems a lot of these guys COULD have actually been their own grampaw. Like from the song describing a feller's family background.
A family telephone pole.
Family branch
Family Christmas wreath
I will never understand why it is so hard for people to understand that Cleopatra was a Greek ruler who inherited power from her Greek predecessors that date back to Alexander's conquest of Egypt.
Because most people don't study History of Ancient Egypt, most of what they know is by movies.
@@nidohime6233 this is so sad
they'll never know the struggle of studying 40 pages of Egyptian history in two weeks
@@nidohime6233 Sad thing is that people don't even know that everything after Ramses isn't Ancient Egypt either
Thank you! She wasn’t black like people think. Look at Greek people and you’d probably be looking at her.
Greek ruler, well, the Lagides dynasty still adaptated quite a bit to the egyptian culture while bringing their share of traditions and stuff to the table. Sure, they are being referred to as "the macedonian" and stuff. But saying that she was greek is denying the egyptian influence on her family and upbringing, would you tell someone of irish descent that they are Irish and not american ?
To call all Africans as black or dark skinned is the same as saying all Asians look Sino-Mongolian. It's a fricking big continent populated with various and diverse people groups.
the answer is still no.
@@quack420 who cares of your answer..Who is CLEOPATRA'S mum?😂😅
@@sphinx2476 ? her dad's sister... does that make her black some how? that sounds pretty racist mate.
@@sphinx2476 Bro cleopatras family tree was a line, thinks habsburgs times 10
You do know when black people says "Black people" were speaking about ethnicity not the actual color
Cersei: Targaryens wed brothers and sister for 300 years to keep their bloodline pure.
Cleopatra: Hold my brother.
Was wondering when someone would make the reference. Lol.
That made me laugh so hard. Thank you.
Actually Daenerys is more inbred then Cleopatra. Daenerys's inbreeding coefficient is 0.375, Cleopatra VII's is 0.359.
yeah, grrm is not just a creep for being a creeps sake, reality is worse
@@jawo8754 the reason for it was even the same, the pharao was from the line of the god horus and keeping the blood pure meant being ruled by a good
As an egyptologist I am absolutely amazed and somewhat terrified that you managed to express adequately the Ptolemaic family tree on a two-dimensional plane without summoning an Eldritch Abomination or something similar...
If modern genealogical software can handle the population that lives on almost any tiny island in the middle of the sea, ancient royalty is probably not gonna be impossible. My family tree on one side is probably a Gordian knot.
It was truly terrifying, kind of mysterious how Cleopatra (VII) could come out beautiful after all that incest.
She didn't even have to use those wedges organic chemists use for the bonds that go in front of and behind the plane.
@@Senkino5o Her intelligence is even more of a marvel after all that...
Yassssss 😮
The problem lies with people trying to impose modern-day racial/ethnic categories onto the past.
I actually think the real problem is people pretending like race wasn't an issue in the ancient world and present it as some harmonious utopia, thus completely ignoring the centuries of massacres and genocides that created empires such as that of the Romans, and completely ignoring that race played a huge role in that. Racism and ethnicity weren't the terms they used, but the reason there was intense incest and mass genocide and conquering was very much based on an ideology akin to that of contemporary racism and xenophobia today. Pretending racism wasn't a thing back then has lead to a glorification and celebration of the Roman empire, etc, and completely sterilised the brutality of its nature.
@Lady of the Library I'm glad you reject the (for lack of a better term) "noble savage" trope. Mark of someone truly professional.
@@CinziaDuBois It really was not "Racism" as we use the term today. This goes to the OP, who rightly points out that group preference is not modern day "racism". It was a division of the "other" such as the Greeks referring to non-Greeks as "barbaros." I don't think xenophobia is a correct term, either, since it is literally an "irrational fear of strangers". The Greeks saw non-Greeks as primitive and generally inferior/uncivilized, but they were not really afraid of them, in the sense of a phobia. I think ethnocentrism is the better term for this phenomenon. The idea that our ethnicity (culture/civilization) is superior and we must impose our superiority onto everyone else.
@@CinziaDuBois No, the reason there was incest was egotistical people wanting their "bloodline" to be perfect, and to secure land(resources). The reason there was genocide, which even in Rome, there was very little, was it was an effective way to reduce populations that might rebel, and conquest is simple for resources. You decide to ignore facts to spread nonsensical racial ideals.
@@CinziaDuBois eugenics studies weren't even a thing until the 16th or 17th century, so even the concept of racism and racialism being applied as far back as the Roman empire doesn't make sense. Tribalism and ethnocentrism would most like be the cause of divisions, i.e. cultural, linguistic. They fought for resources and political control and cultural dominance. Racism and racialism as based on genetics is a pretty modern concept.
The Elizabeth Taylor Cleopatra movie even alluded to her origins. One of her lines was "as a mostly Greek thing myself". There's the allusion to that missing ancestors. As for the "too many Ptolemies", France had 18 kings named Louis.
France only had 17 kings named Louis, because Louis XVII never was King of France.
1960's Hollywood movie scripts aren't exactly citable as history facts.
@@craigjomaia True, but if those quotes from the script are backed with historical sources and archeological findings then they are not wrong.
@@barbarossarotbart
I was certain there had been 19 Louis… and shamefully lost at a pub quizz because of the “how many KINGS were named Louis”… 😅
Yet, are we completely sure that Clovis wasn’t a misread Louis or that all the Louis should have been called Clovis? After all, one can clearly see how William can become Guillaum (and later Guillaume) in old French “font”, so why not the Clovis/Louis?
@@Vee_of_the_Weald The Legitimist claimant to the throne, the Duke of Anjou, is Louis XX for his followers (they don't recognise the French Revolution).
I think it is okay to cast someone of Mediterranean ancestry for Cleopatra, it’s historically accurate. Anyone of Levantine, Greek, Balkan, Turkish, Italian, Spanish, and North African descent could play her.
True, people today like to divide into "whites" and "non-whites" but Greeks and Turks are quite similar in skin colour, as are South Italians and Tunisians
no. i want to see a greek woman we r bored of gal gadot..
Gal Gadot is Israeli, isn’t she? So geographically very close to Egypt.
@@charlotteillustration5778
I mean theoretically yeah, but I think some Egyptians may not like that because she’s Israeli and they occupied the Sinai peninsula until the 80’s.
@@charlotteillustration5778 as a north african (non egyptian) i would like to see a beautiful interesting modern greek woman play Cleopatra :O
Question: Was Cleopatra Black?
Answer: No.
Some people will ask a followup question:
*should* she be?
I think "very unlikely" are the better answere here
@@Izaiyusa very unlikely...?
so, in other words: No
she was literally fully Greek idk how hard this is for you to comprehend
@@sheila19954 ok ;-;
@@kaasmeester5903 In a movie Yes, but not in a documentary.
"He married both his sisters, very loyally, as he should" I love your delivery and had a good laugh at that!
He had three sisters and allowed sister to have one of three sisters head cut off what kind of loyalty is that?
@@hydrolito It's obvious loyalty in a sense of keeping it in the family. Not the loyalty of your current understanding.
This woman is doing fascist propaganda. Cleopatra was about 1/3 Greek 1/3 other Middle Eastern, and 1/3 African Egyptian. She should be played by either a modern Egyptian or a modern Middle-Easterner, not by a person with Northern European ancestry.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 🙄 she's literally going through the bloodlines with a chart. And your math doesn't add up at all
@@goldilox369 She's going through 1/10th of the bloodlines, the ones she can track, and disgusing it by making it complicated. About 1/3 of Cleopatra's ancestry is Greek, 1/3 is Egyptian, and 1/3 is other Middle-Eastern. She only focused on the Greek ancestors, because they are easy to track, and fit her preconceived incorrect conclusion. As another commentator mentioned, Cleopatra's sister's skeleton is available for study, and shows large amounts of Black African Egyptian ancestry.
Game of thrones has nothing on the dramatics of the Cleopatras. Very informative 🙂.
Look at history of Poland following the testament of Bolesław Krzywousty... There are times in history compared to which war of the roses is simple story...
i would LOVE a series on the cleopatra line
Daenerys Targaryen was based on Cleopatra VII.
Au contraire. The Ptolemys/ Cleopatras would have fit like a glove into the Frey family's wider echelons.
Or a royal family tree.
Ancient royal Egyptian families were incredibly inbred
The Egyptians remain with us. They are called the Copts now. However, Cleopatra's ancestry appears to have been at least mostly Greek. It is important to bear in mind that the Mediterranean world once looked quite different, in terms of peoples and even climate. To imagine that Egypt was once the breadbasket of the Mediterranean may seem impossible now, but it was once true.
the ptolemys literally kept it in the family.
When people say things like: "The Greeks/Egyptians/Misc remain with us" it's usually intended to distort the issue. I see this all the time in documentaries, an assurance that the people living in a certain area today are the descendants of those from some past great civilization. The "proof" is that their genetics continue to reflect their ancestry. This is true but deceptive. It is intentionally deceptive. Sharing genes with ancestors of a great civilization is NOT the same as being of a similar genetic profile as those who built that civilization. It is an undeniable fact that modern peoples, particularly from the Mediterranean, have a mixed heritage that greatly distinguishes them from the ancestors they CHOOSE to identify with.
@@curiaregis9479 wow people r more delusional than i thought. did u just say..."The "proof" is that they their genetics continue to reflect their ancestry. This is true but deceptive. It is intentionally deceptive." have a nic 1
Amazing what a 1 degree change in the axial tilt of the earth can do, Egypt is a perfect example.
@@incogb6696 I suppose that's too complex for you? Let me put it in a simpler, more concrete way. Pretending a person with 15% or 20% or 30% African ancestry is the same as some group who lived in the area previous and built a civilization there is deceptive. The ancestors of the modern people are choosing to identify with a certain part of their heritage, but this part did not have this admixture, they did not have the same genetic profile. But as the mixed people in question still SHARE some genetic ancestry with those ancestors it is often suggested they are genetically the same, just many generations later. This is a lie.
The documentarians who say this know it will be misunderstood and that's why they do it. It's the sort of pandering and lying that is common with the global elite agenda.
This shouldnt even be a question
Hundreds of years of macedonian incest, no she wasnt black.
I think the real question is: How on earth did one of the most intelligent and well-educated people of her time result from a family tree that made the Hapsburgs look diverse?
You beat me to it! I thought exactly the same thing.
Because her family was very well educated?
Not all results of incestuous union are problematic
An offspring of incestuous birth can come up normal but the risks of genetic abnormalities are extremely high
Well if her granny on her dads side was a concubine, thats like 25 percent of fresh dna. Maybe thats why she was described as so beautiful, bc everyone was surprised in comparison to the rest of the lot 😂
The Ptolemys... Ptolemies? What's the plural of Ptolemy? Anyway, they married people who were not Greek only four times in their entire history. Otherwise, they stuck with Greek spouses. I'm fairly sure that we can safely assume Cleopatra looked Greek.
I like how she doesn't bring the idea of race of concubine and illegitimate together. Cause if Celeoptra 7th was darker then rest of the incest babies, wouldn't there be mention of that.
The plural should be Ptolemiei (nominative) or Ptolemion (genitive). As an Egyptian Greek from Alexandria I can confirm we stuck with our greek spouses a lot. 😉
At the same time I'm fairly sure Cleopatra didn't look like "a Greek", because in actual Greece the family trees didn't look like an instruction on how to weave a carpet.
@@BlommaBaumbart XD
Ptolemy, Ptolemaios in Greek. Hence, the plural is Ptolemaioi (ai as in fair and oi as in see).
So, ultimately, with respect to the Gal Gadot controversy, she's as good a pick for Cleopatra as anyone.
She looks more "Egyptian" than Greek, so yeah probably.
yeah you support the occupation and ethnic cleansing in palestine too i'm sure of that?
I'll say NO in her casting because she can't act. She is attractive but is terribly stiff and one note. I would appreciate an actress that was middle Eastern and talented... ijs
Hollywood likes to cast solely on looks and forget that viewers might actually like a story that was well acted too. There are plenty of attractive females who CAN act out there who deserve a chance.
Hardly controversy, it's a bunch of racists convinced caucasian history is black history and doing out of the box thinking and creative wording to make it work, such as the term African for North African with the assumption it wasn't inhabited by caucasians but the highly inaccurate "people of colour".
The bigger issue might be the fact that Gal Gadot is Israeli. Due to Egypt's current political issues with Israel, this would be controversial for contemporary Egyptians. It would be the equivalent of casting a Pakistani actor as Gandhi or casting a Japanese actor as an ancient Chinese emperor.
While Gal Gadot probably resembles Cleopatra as well as almost any current actress would, it still would be controversial given the present politics.
Ancient greek rulers were like "I am my own grandpa thrice removed."
Gal Gadot as someone who looks 'generic mediterranean' is probably a reasonable pick to play Cleopatra. One valid objection would be that she's too good looking, but that's not fatal.
Gal Gadot is Israeli in nationality, but her ancestry is Eastern European. She does not look Generic Mediterranean, or Greek. Can she play Cleo, sure.
She can’t act though, and it’s not like there’s a lack of Greek much less Southern Italian actresses out there.
"too good looking"? The woman who seduced Caesar and Mark Antony is "too good looking"?
I feel like she's too tall. I don't know why but I've always thought of Cleopatra as being short, lol.
In today's with woke ideology you can not be taken seriously unless you are not melanin challenged. Clearly to be correct, facts don't matter.
Cleopatra isn't Egyptian, she ruled Egypt. Charles V wasn't Spanish, he ruled Spain. Catherine the Great wasn't Russian, she ruled Russia... Cleopatra is of Greek descent and her association with Egypt in the Egyptian psyche is a very recent thing. As the icon of Egypt that she now is, she's the brain child of poet Ahmed Shawki who published The Death of Cleopatra in 1927. If you asked any Egyptian about her before then they probably would have gone: Cleowho?
How is she not Egyptian?
Ptolomaic dynasty ruled Egypt for 250 years. that is longer than USA exists.
She was like 12th generation born and raised in Egypt. If you think 12 generations aren't enough to consider someone a local then your and mine definitions are very different.
She was absolutely an Egyptian, of distant greek ancestry.
@@Adsin16 You mistake royals for commoners. Court life is so removed from the daily life of the people. So much so that not a single one of Cleopatra's predecessors spoke Egyptian. And while she did herself, her education was entirely Greek. Her name was Greek. Her blood was Greek since her predecessors, in their disdain for the locals, didn't mary any Egyptians. Can you then show me the Egyptian part? And for the sake of fidelity, the video is about her skin color, ethnicity. Under that light, she's entirely Greek.
@@lotfibouhedjeur
Oh, it's true, they married between relatives. Something that has always been done during the different times of pharaohs throughout the centuries to preserve the purity of the blood. At least in all of the most famous Egyptian dynasties, Tutankhamun didn't look this handsome for nothing.
Cleopatra is supusse to be basically a product of incest, like the vast majority of her family. So it's normal that his ethnicity is more Greek, when your parents are brothers or cusins (allegedly) you don't have many options. So yes, her ethnicity was Greek.
But she was born in Egypt, in Alexandria. City founded by Alexander the Great (from Macedonia, but his ethnicity is also Greek) who conquered Egypt and proclaimed himself pharaoh; when Alexander died, Ptolemy I, also of Macedonia and the ancestor of Cleopatra, was proclaimed Pharaoh of Egypt. Alas, a new dinasty of pharaohs was born.
What happened to the Ptolemaic dynasty is that they adopted the Egyptian culture and customs. That is why Cleopatra is Egyptian, regardless of her ethnicity, her culture was a mixture of Egyptian and Greek. And Greek because the whole part of Upper Egypt was basically territory colonized by the Greeks, know as the Hellenistic period of Egypt.
@@Adsin16 She was Egyptian in the same sense that the Plantagenet Kings of England were English - i.e they were born there but they weren't really culturally English and were a French family.
Its not uncommon for such things to happen. Its not unreasonable to call Cleopatra Egyptian but she was still of Greek and some Persian ancestry and culturally Greek/Macedonian.
@@Adsin16 She was the first of her dynasty to speak Egyptian. Let that sink in. The Ptolemaic dynasty ruled Egypt as foreigners.
Okay, all things being considered, regarding her family tree, I think we can all agree there is only one person that could properly portray Cleopatra…
Andy Serkis
Yeah , ...because Cleopatra was a dude .
that's a joke people .
@@brademerick9181 it’s odd that after all the characters Mr Serkis has played, an Egyptian Queen may be the most normal lol
And he'd be great lol
@Alban Musa but does either have the chops to play an Egyptian Queen like Serkis could lol
This is a very long video to say that, "No, she was 100% NOT black".
it never sayd that. she says we cannot be sure.
@@andrabook8758 Actually no, that is not the conclusion of that video. It was said here that within the uncertainty as there is, we can still say, that Cleopatra VII was not african black.
Apart from her royal macedonian and persian ancestry, there is a chance that there was also some non-royal-greek ancestry. Most likely it was still some other greek, or maybe some northen african or persian ancestry. Chance that it was a black african ancestry is the least probable. And even if so, then she would still not be a full black african.
She was 0% black
Paintings and busts made of her literally depict her as pale skinned with reddish hair.
Could you do me the courtesy of stating what exactly constitutes as “black” please? 😊
I think the best representation of what she truely looked like are the statues that were produced during her time in Rome. These were produced by sculptors who actually saw Cleopatra. Romans appreciated a true level of reality in representation in their sculptures, obviously with some "photoshopping." The Roman sculptures produced of Cleopatra during her time in Rome show a decidedly Mediterranean/Middle Eastern appearing woman.
Thats what I was thinking
As a Greek myself, anyone with Balkan and east Mediterranean would be great to cast. Gal Gadot is perfect.
@@pontios2006 No they would not, most of today's balkans would be very different from the classical age. Slavs, Bulgars, Magyars, and different hordes and western barbarians(Germanic) came way after Alexander and his followers times. Islandic Greeks would make much more sense.
@@kay1057 No. It seems that you do not understand how a conquest did work. The original people were not replaced.
@@barbarossarotbart You would be surprised genocide and slavery were fairly common, especially the hordes that ravaged the Eastern Roman Empires' borders. + The greeks, migrated into Anatolia and the middle-east.
So basically Cleopatra is most likely similar to the modern Southern Europeans. A mix between European and Middle Eastern.
Maybe like a Habsburg.
Yes but without the Middle-Eastern they were northern greeks but the Macedonians weren't necessarily regarded as true Greeks before Philip.
The Ptolmies bred within their own family line for most of the reign and the only outbreeding seems to be from Anatolia which was largely ethnically Greek.
@@drdeesnutts48 did someone say blessed are the Greeks?
Black supremacists are mental nutcases that need help.
@@drdeesnutts48 she has Syriac and Persian DNA too
I’m absolutely floored by your ability to keep that family line straight. I had to watch the video several times, so confusing. Well done! Very well done.
I just wanna say I appreciate how not-aggressive this is. I'm not worried about "agendas" or whatever people gripe about. I just like how casual and inquisitive this is.
If you ever find yourself embroiled in this debate, there are two surefire signs that somebody doesn't know much or anything about the subject: 1) They don't know there was a lot more than one Cleopatra. 2) They don't know that the Ptolemies came from Greece, not Egypt.
Don't let the Republic of North Macedonia hear you say that... also, don't let the Greek hear I said that.
Think Serbian rather than Greek…
@@allangibson2408 Slavs like Serbians didn't migrate there until much much later.
Quite, quite so
@@ballenboy Language and genetic ethnicity are different things.
Albanian is a relict of preRoman times as well…
Dacian, Thracian and Illyrian would be relevant ethnically but utterly unfamiliar to modern audiences…
Girl, I give you A LOT of kudos for breaking down all that complicated family line. I had no idea it was sooooo mysterious and complicated. I always just thought Cleopatra was the one and only Cleopatra of her time. Thanks for sharing all that. 👍👍
She isn't 'breaking it down', she is obfuscating it deliberately. She is ignoring most of the ancestry, which comes from un-named and un-known Egyptian concubines and Middle-Easterners. The result is a person who would resemble a modern Middle-Eastern person.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 You say she is obfuscating but what you just said is exactly what I took away from her video. Besides, if so much is unknown and unnamed, then how is she to know it, lol?
The Ptolemies. Next on Netflix or Amazon Prime.
@@annaclarafenyo8185 That is true
@@rataflechera Sounds more like an HBO thing hehe.
"where the fuck is cleopatra the 6th" best quote
The best part of that quote was hearing it in such a lovely refined accent. Thank you, Cinzia.
I once fell into Wikipedia rabbit hole of Cleopatras and kept asking this question.
I'd by merch w/ that on it.
Sweet Home Alabama!
Cleopatra the 6th greatest quote was as follows.
"When arriving in Rome make a splashy entrance"
We see her profile on a Roman/Egyptian coin. Yike's.
Then again beauty is subject.
When I watched the trailer of queen Cleopatra i realised that the documentary is trying to sell us the point that Cleopatra is black rather than focusing on her accomplishments
Sadly I'm half expecting a cheap production, resorting to controversy in order to attract attention at the defendable flaws. For example, I've seen far better pillars than the ones presented... It won't be the first time.
What accomplishments? She did not lead armies in battle or conquer other nations or anything of note. Other than to seduce Julius's who forced the Egyptians to accept her as a ruler/ queen and when he died she seduced Mark Anthony to try and hold on to power. When that failed she killed her self.
@@UGTLDG can't believe you were half expecting it 😂
5:15 Love how you diplomatically squezed the sponsor ad before the incest talk.
I've been here a long time
I'm sure she likes squeezing sponsors.
4:02 this reminds me of a fascinating discussion that I had with a Korean woman. She had her DNA tested and her family made fun of her because "you're Korean, born in Korea. Why do you need to know more than that." Her DNA came back as part Japanese and a little bit Chinese her family freaked out. Based on the percentage it lined up with a probable great grandparent being Japanese and a great great grandparent being Chinese. Cut to a few years later her DNA test updated to say she was 99% Korean. Well, why did it change? Was it wrong? Probably not. What changed was where the line was being drawn between the cultures. Realistically both are actually right. Did she have a secretly Japanese Great grandparent? Probably not. More so the numbers lined up with the standard percentage of how much most Korean people cross married with Japanese and Chinese people throughout history. So where do you draw the line? Is she 12.5% Japanese, 6.25% Chinese, and 81.25% Korean because centuries ago the civilizations that became China and Japan also moved to the region that became Korea? Or is she 100% Korean because the mixing of cultures and peoples happened so long ago that you can't call those ancestors Japanese and Chinese anymore, but instead part of the tapestry of people's that would become Korean?
I mean Japan had a lot of mass rapings throughout history. That’s why having Japanese ancestry is such a touchy subject. Korean people also ancestor worship like a lot of Asia so many people have family members who were in royal courts when the Chinese invaded several times.
These tests are mostly a hoax. Nobody can say if you are 'Korean' or 'Japanese'. They can say that the type of genes you have also appear fairly often in Japan. They sometimes can roughly track your maternal line (if you are a woman) or paternal line (if you are a man). But the results are not cut and straight. The best example is a girl from the video 'SHOCKING African Ancestry DNA Results Im UPSET! Nia Hope'.
There's really a big problem with those tests in this regard. Being "16% French" or something like that makes no sense: it's not like French people are a homogenous thing or ever were close to being, nor is it that they were dropped on earth at the same time as the other groups and had no contact outside that strictly deliminated gene pool. Those gene tests are the contemporary equivalent of personality tests for people so self-obsessed and shallow that they can't have a sense of identity without a test that'd make the Lebensborn jealous
@@adapienkowska2605 that video is hilarious if it's the one im thinking of. 😂
japanese imperialism also plays a role into that
For those who don't know that Cleopatra was of Greek nationality not Egyptian . Cleopatra was a descend of the Ptolemy Pharos who ruled Egypt after Alexander the great conquered Egypt . Cleopatra was not of African or Egyptian descent .
Yes. This is exactly right. And believe it or not a LOT of Black people actually know this and agree with this.
Well, she was born in Egypt, so she is Egyptian by nationallity, but she is from Greek descendent
@@christianrowbotham7386 Nationality? That's not a thing in the ancient world.
And in most of the modern world what defines nationality/citizenship is mostly blood (jus sanguinis, look it up), not birthplace (like Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Colombia, China, etc.)
@@christianrowbotham7386 the term of nation didn't exist until the 18th century.
@@crusaderACR my point is that she was born in Egypt even if she is not pure Egyptian
Cleopatra was of Greek Ancestry and most likely looked very similarly to those from the Hellenic Republic.
Even more to the Greek communities of Alexandria and Cairo.
No that's not right. It's a possibility but I think it most likely not what she looked like.
It's weird to me that so many people bring up the Elizabeth Taylor movie when they bring up historical accuracy and whitewashing. I'm pretty sure that when they cast Elizabeth Taylor, representation and historical accuracy weren't even a blip on the radar. They just thought "Who is hot enough to play history's most beautiful woman?" It's not really a standard to take seriously.
Explaining this to Americans is quite challenging because often they don't know the difference between race and ethnicity, let alone that your ethnicity is not a 100% guarantee that you will develop certain phenotypes. As you showed in the video, it's far more complicated than just black or white, Greek or North African. Plus, why focus on her "race", when we could instead focus on how damn incestuous her family is, it's insane!
Its in our history 🧏♀️
they don't know the difference between race and nationality, in my experience.
As a general rule the loudest people tend to be the most ignorant. And Americans love to be loud about everything. So it check's out. But mostly it's just ethnocentrism. They can't see beyond their own 100 or so years of history ( if even) and the bubble of their very particular national idiosyncrasies with identity.
@@miinfl7143 So hard to explain things to Americans. Hey, try winning a few wars.
We know the difference. Afrocentric and leftist Americans don't. Just saying... just look at the reaction leftists had to Jame Franco being cast as Fidel Castro... Also, America has won lots of wars.
Very nice video! You probably did not know that a year ago, but your video is now pretty relevant considering the whole Netflix Cleopatra controversy going on right now!
The von Habsburgs after they learn the Ptolemaic family tree: Finally, a worthy opponent, our battle will be LEGENDARY!!
Interesting note: "Berenice" one of the three popular girls names in the Ptolemaic dyansty, is pronounced more like "Veraneekee" in Greek, and is where we get "Veronica."
Bonus factoid: Alexander the Great had a sister named Cleopatra, and as far as I can tell, is the only one of his siblings portrayed in movies or TV. I can't be positive, but I went through a lot of credits to find any other instances and have come up empty.
Which movies/TV shows have Alexander's sister in it? I'm just curious because all the ones I've seen never show any of his siblings and it'd be nice to see a version with Cleopatra in it :)
@@GirlintheSea Young Alexander the Great, 2010
@@ConradsStudio thank you! I tried to find this show years ago but only came up empty handed!
I would say fereneeke as feres (bringer) nike (victory). Medieval tradition use the christian mythology as Verum Iconos mixing Latin and greek as for true image (of the Christ)
You're right about the pronunciation of "Veraniki" what confuses some people is that Berenice used to be a fairly common girl's name until about the 1960s. I knew a couple of older women with this name as a kid.
I can't express enough how much I enjoy these videos!!! Please keep them coming! 🙏🏻🧡
Thank you! Will do!
@@CinziaDuBois please do plus I love your voice even when you are little under the weather.
????
Persians, Sirians and the majority of egypcians are NOT black. So even if Cleopatra have some blood from these peoples, she was NOT black.
This whole controversy about Gal Gadot portraying Cleopatra VIIth proves how race is a social construct ie totally made up. She's from the same region as egyptians (middle east), similar phenotype (dark hair & eyes, olive skin), same language group (semitic) yet she's "white" but her doppelganger from neighbouring Egypt would be a "person of colour".
PS: I'm not a fan of Gadot (mostly for supporting Isreal's policy in Palestine) but she's probably the best famous actress for the role. If the film makers wanted to go more obscure but authentic route they should've cast either a coptic actress or preferably a greek actress from Saloniki region. Although I doubt that more "correct" ethnicity would make their performance better.
We in Egypt can range from dark brown to fair skin we aren't just olive skin
Yeah that's to be expected in an important area with lots of trade going through it. If we are talking pre-trade Egypt everyone probably had the same skin phenotype, but Cleopatra's time was far far past that.
Nah race isn’t a social construct, it’s biological. Look up mixed raced people waiting for bone marrow transplants. It’s very difficult to find matches for mixed race people specifically.
@@KP-ej7gc it's a social construct based on some biological reasons
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl but it can’t be a social construct if it’s based on biology.
"The Ptolemys kept it in the family..." Literally. So literally it'll make your skin crawl.
I know of a certain royal family that live to the ripe old age of about 100...that tend to do it too.
I've recently seen a video about Cleopatra's genealogy and possible actual looks too, so right now I'm more curious about her purported beauty more than anything else, seeing that her family tree is so...tightly knit.
and so murderous. a vicious lot.
She had a honker of a nose... that much is well documented.
Apparently commentators of the time said she was charming and intelligent (she was fluent in at least nine languages and was well versed in history, philosophy, religion, etc.), not that she was ridiculously beautiful. She also connected herself with the Egyptian pantheon
it just proves that Beauty is both subjective and subverted by time.
People mostly called her beaitiful because of her intellect and things such as
Reading through a lot of these comments...I'm just like wow. You can tell who didn't actually pay attention to the video. Thanks for condensing a lot of complicated information down into something digestible. I actually feel like I understand Cleopatra's lineage and the cultural significance of legitimacy of the time a bit better.
I am amazed at how fluently you have presented this convoluted story ! Congratulations 🎊
I would call this video "An abundance of Cleopatras"
In middle school my teacher told us the same thing about how the Egyptians depicted all women with yellow skin and males with red. She made us color some copies of Ancient Egyptian murals to drive the lesson's point home.
Paws..your teacher should be fired
@@matiusbond6052 You clearly do not understand the context.
You are 100% correct
I’m here learning about this because of the controversy around the Netflix docu-series. You explain the facts and historical context so well, thank you!
You needed a video to tell you something History class should have taught you at age 10?
On the cultural side she was the first ruler of her dynasty to learn the local language. For about 250 years the leaders of Egypt spoke Greek and could not directly communicate with their subjects.
@@cisco20211 Considering the original commentator would’ve had education in the Western world (so Europe/ American continents), the amount of documentation in book for students about Ancient Egypt or others such as Ancient Persia is very little, the history books for students in school in Western countries centrically revolve around History in the eyes of Western Countries, mostly North Western European countries. So it’s actually very great that OP watches this video to get her sources about these empires and their ethnicity/heritage, cause education failed to do so
I think the deeper point is, even if she wasn't pure Greek, and had some Syrian, Persian, or what not blood in her, well these all still fall under the larger "Caucasian" umbrella.
Cleopatra: *Literally came from a family of Greek conquerors who preferred incest to intermarrying with native Kemetic peoples…* Modern Revisionists: “SHE WAS BLAAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!!!”
I despise Afrocentrists; Napoleon Bonaparte: black, Livia Drusilla: black, George Washington: black, Queen Dihya: black....
No she wasn’t
These same modern revisionists couldn't find their arses with both hands.
Thank you so much Cinzia, I never knew anything before about Cleopatra's ancestry! 😀
Glad it was helpful!
I love this actually someone who knows the nitty gritty of the genealogy. I think the recent casting of an ethnically Jewish actress is actually pretty accurate for Cleopatra as ethnically Jewish people are sort a mix of Southern European and Levantine Middle Eastern people.
Who are the so called Levantine people if they are not caucasian? The arabs are not from the levant. Turks are not from the levant. Egyptians are not from the levant. Mongols are not from the levant. Persians are not from the levant. That leaves one race of people who are from the Levant, the Caucasians. Everyone else is a conquerer, invader, colonizer, enslaver.
@@liteney lol
I think Gal Gadot was a pretty good choice for Cleopatra. She's from the region as well
@@davidstansbury9309 Why are you laughing? Are you one of the non caucasian people who colonized anatolia, enslaving the caucasian people who's homeland that is?
@@liteney Dude. TF are you on.
I just finished making an episode about Cleopatra because of the upcoming Netflix “documentary” but I’m just now coming across this channel! Definitely placing this in the description for people to watch, as I didn’t go into this much detail!
Great episode, definitely subbing❤
You are great! I would only have explained that the 'marrying within the family' was an Egyptian idea, that the Alexandrian Greeks took on, only after they conquered Egypt. The "Phaoronic family" was 'godly', and therefore, was expected to breed only within itself. This led to over 250 dynasties over 5000 years, as I'm sure you know!
Sounded pretty monstrous to me.
This may be of interest to you if you don't know it already. DNA was extracted from the base of a skull from what was probably the most sacred part of Newgrange Neolithic site (c3200bc) County Meath, Ireland. It showed the individual was the product of 1st degree incest ie either parent/offspring or siblings.
I mean for a lot of history that was mainly ceremonial afaik, most Pharaohs mainly had children with their concubines.
@@CollinBuckman did the children of the concubines go on to be the pharaohs though? Or was that only the incest babies?
"Books save lives, so keep reading"
Sooo I was that typical smart kid who would absolutely DEVOUR books far too advanced for my age and I could spend hours and hours every day reading in any location at any opportunity.
Then life happened and anxiety and poor mental health took over, (bla bla bla you know the story) Basically I lost my ability to read, I just didn't have the attention span or ability to concentrate for long periods anymore and I haven't successfully completed a book in 15 years and I HATE IT!
But that glorious sentence right there, (also maybe the joint I just had lol) got stuck in my head and drove me wild to the point that I've tore through my cupboards and trashed my flat to find this book I got 7 years ago that I've been trying to read since.
So I'm gonna plan it all out and get myself all comfy and work myself up to it all day, for tonight, WE READ!!!
So yeah! thanks for that! I haven't felt inspired like this for years!
Oh dear, that´s 1 to 1 what happened to me, a life ago... As a child I was even punished for reading (obviously, not what I was supposed to read for school) and then, as you say, life happened, depression - you really know the story :)) I started after a (long) while with psychology books, to understand what happened with the happy girl I used to be and why. Then I read books about science, phisics, history, step by step, page by page, and suddenly I could read again! Don´t worry, it is like bicycle riding, it´s there! I whish you can make the same happy comeback as I did! Have a nice reading session!
Something similar happened to me. My mental health went downhill and I simultaneously stopped reading as much. My concentration during reading has become awful, and I’m not sure if that’s because of ADHD or pure anxiety clouding my mind. I hate it, too, because I like reading and what I get from it. Sometimes it actually irritates me as I have to read sentences over and over. I might be sharing too much, but it’s nice to know others have gone through the same.
Good luck with redeveloping your reading habits! 💗
Good luck getting back into reading! I have recently started again, as well.
Best guess of Cleopatra's appearance in modern context would be a modern day southern European. Knowing Gal Gadot's ancestry and appearance probably the right choice.
Example: Andalusian or Sicilian.
yeah but egyptians did realy not like schasu
they would not like it that one of them is portrayed as an egyptian
@@curocurovic6675 That's not the point dude
She ain’t Egyptian
Oke so what youre saying is.... she was not black
Informative and hilarious. Love it!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This stuff, is why I still love history (and geography) decades after school!
Keep up the phenomenal work! 🤗
Greetings from a Swede in Glasgow....
One of the weird things about being a jew is you are not white when it comes to being accepted as European, but you are absolutely white when you cast as an Egyptian queen.
Nice
That is a really weird thing. I only came to know of people not classifying Jewish people as white when I was actually attacked by white supremacists on youTube a few years ago. they all said I wasn't white and I was Jewish and I "shouldn't speak of white people issues". I'd never heard of this distinction before then.
Though to clarify, I'm not Jewish, but because I was supportive of Black rights activists, they tried to make me "less white" and distance me from them via assuming I was Jewish and it was baffling. But yeah, when I saw the backlash to a Jewish woman, someone from the middle east, playing a Macedonian/Persian/Iranian queen, because she was "too white", I was very confused.
This sort happens to me as a white Latina. Like my skin is darker than what some people in the US consider white person so I often get categorized as a person of color but other times I don’t. It is somewhat situational because sometimes I have white privilege and sometimes I don’t.
@@CinziaDuBois I was under the impression that Persia and Iran did not exist in the same timeframe.
@@waldemarsikorski4759 Persia is just another name of Iran. Europeans usually refer to this country as Persia (the land of persian) before Rezashah Pahlavi reign, during his reign due to political views it officially changed into Iran, but keep in mind Iran is not a new name, in the oldest manuscript this land called "Iranvij" which means the land of Aryans and at least for the last 2500 years it's been called Iran. Persia is the name Greeks came up with for this country.
@@CinziaDuBois cleopatra would have considered herself to be a hellenistic woman and a ethnic Macedonian
this I believe is the second video of yours that I've ever watched (first being a reaction to BearEars' denial of ancient Rome), I've enjoyed both, great work, thank you
I love the nuance you provided to this ongoing discussion! I wasn't aware how much was unknown about her genealogy!
This was terrific. I learned more in twenty minutes than I did in a college course on ancient Egypt. Thank you!
Says a lot about the college education system.
thats because ancient egypt is way more important than cleopatras ethinicity.
@@grandmastersreaction1267 i think it says something about this persons expectation of what is important historically
@@TheFamousMockingbird or that the ethnicity isn’t a simple issue and that there are certain assumptions people make without sufficient historical context?
I think we also have to admit that Egypte was a mixed race society. When people say "it's in Africa, so everyone has to look like a Sub-Saharan African" is just incorrect. I think that when the African diaspora (wich I am a part of) is looking into their history, they meet a wall when it comes to Africa (because of the history and culture lost because of slavery), this had an effect on the people's sense of self and confidence. That is why they look at Egypte.
Yes and try to steal our history and call us mutts
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl steal your history and call u mutts? idk anyone in my country that thinks of y'all as mutts or wants to steal your history? where did u hear that?
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Well Egyptians are a mixed people and have been for thousands of years? It’s a fact, not an insult.
People trying to steal culture goes both ways. And it also depends what time period and culture you are referring to.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Same happens to indigenous Americans. Now we see some claiming that Africans were 1st in American continents. And also some saying Africans ruled China. Its all nonsense.
Why would history be lost coz of slavery? Maybe Colonialism, the African Americans are the ones who lost their culture.
Why no documentaries or shows about the ancient Nubians? That checks all the diversity boxes big companies think will make them money, and it also brings to light history that most people in the western world don't really know about.
Great video. Going to share this with my followers on social media, as well as my fellow teachers. Great work.
Thanks for sharing!!
History has depicted Cleopatra as Egyptian, but was more Greek in origin. When you own the film studio, you can hire whatever actress who can play the part the best.
Race baiters thinking Cleopatra was black is just as cringe as Medievalists thinking Jesus Christ was Aryan White.
Such good analysis.
Twitter twit 1: "Cleopatra was a nubile Nubian priestess!"
Twitter twit 2: "You're completely daft! Cleopatra was a blond, blue-eyed Nordic goddess!"
Best comment 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Lol.
All of social media in a nutshell lol
Bullshit I haven't seen anyone claim her as nordic looking. It's the blacks who are going hard trying to claim her
@@emilioalvarez8010 Twitter twit 2 does 😀
Very good presentation of "Cleopatra's bloodline." I've seen some representations of what she may have looked like and she actually was quite and ordinary looking woman. What was important at the time was that she was royalty.
Get ready to get a spike of viewers because of Netflix
She was Greek
I have a headache now. Thank you for the attempt to explain a horrifically incestuous family tree
Well, that's not the end of the story. The incest thing was an Egyptian tradition. Greeks knew about the effects of inbreeding. They kept all the Pharaonic folklore along with the Egyptian clergy for purely political reasons. They compensated the effects of incest by a great dose of adultery. There is no evidence that the kids were theirs fathers biological children. In fact we don't see any of the congenital consequences of inbreeding among the Ptolemy dynasty. The marriages between brothers and sisters were mainly a way to avoid creating opportunities for outsiders to overthrown the dynasty. But I am pretty sure that behind the scene each spouse lived freely his/her sexual life without informing the other spouse as kings and queens always do.
I think the dog even has a headache, all those groans! 😂
I'm North African and I'm pissed off by American who think that all Africa is black. Is it important for them? Why? And why don't they, instead of black-washing, talk about African mythologies, make movies about African heroes, African history… movies and series that would take place in Africa and enlighten the world about this continent? By black-washing everything, do they mean that black Africa has nothing of interest? So racist!
Edit: If it wasn't clear: I'm as white as can be, just like everyone in my region. As for my country… good luck finding a native black African ;)
You brought up some good points.
I've seen examples of Hollywood turning people/characters of european history black (like Achilles or Julius Caesar), claiming they are doing so in the name of representation and everytime I just ask myself: "Why don't you just do some cool king/hero/myth/legend from outside europe once in a while? Why do you need to change characters from certain folks in order to represent another people? Do you dislike african/middle eastern/asian heroes? Do you think they don't have any?"
That shit is actually quite insulting. It's as if you're saying "Oh you poor little black guys.... You got nothing of value... Don't worry, I'll share some of the cool stuff I have with you! "
Seriously, am I the only one who'd like to see some mythology-movie not about greece? And thats coming from someone with greek heritage.
Great video, as usual--love your research and the way you explain the complexities of various issues. It's not your fault, but I'm still confused at the Ptolemaic family tree (or stick as it were--very few branches that don't turn back in on themselves.) I really appreciate you bring out some of the unknowns about Cleopatra's heritage, which is truly a fair and balanced treatment of the issue. Too many are simply ideologically committed to their ideas of what Cleopatra "must have" been like, and ignore some of these facts.
As far as Gal Godot, I'm not sure if the controversy (in Egypt at least) is so much that she isn't North African specifically, but that she's an Israeli (who served in the IDF). Egypt may be at peace with Israel officially, but there are many who still deeply dislike Israel. And having an Israeli portray a famous Egyptian ruler--after Israel time and time again last century beat Egypt in wars--is galling to many Egyptians and their sense of pride. The fact that she was the star of Wonder Woman 1984--that already irritated may Egyptians on its portrayal of Egyptians--added more fuel to the fire of controversy.
Of course, that's just Egypt. In other places, it's just part of the larger issue of how people of non-European descent believe that they are not represented properly in history and non-European people are "white-washed" on a regular basis. I think just giving the factual information, as you have, should help thoughtful people assess the situation more clearly.
Well, given the fact that Cleopatra was the end-result of several generations of Macedonian inbreeding, the last in the line of the Ptolomeic Dynasty, it's difficult to comprehend how she could possibly have been "black" (or to put it more accurately, contained any ancestry of sub-Saharan African origin...)
As the video points out there is the off chance that her paternal grandmother was of non-Greek decent, in which case a Nubian concubine wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. Quite unlikely though.
@@recurrenTopology To reiterate: It is a fact that Cleopatra was the end-result of several generations of Macedonian inbreeding (repeat, INBREEDING!) and the last in the line of the Ptolomeic Dynasty. This is established historical fact, and not a mere 'off-chance' possibility. I realise that some people don't like to allow mere facts to get in the way of a good story, but there it is.
@@MrPGC137 Did you watch the video? It isn't known who her paternal grandmother was, just that she likely wasn't the wife (and sister) of her paternal grandfather. Since the ethnicity of that women, likely a concubine, is unknown, it is impossible to definitively state the entirety of Cleopatra's ethnic makeup. It's seems most likely that her grandmother was also of Greek descent, but their exists the possibility she had a different ethnicity.
@@recurrenTopology There are artistic depictions of Cleopatra (i'm thinking of a bust sculpture and a portrait from the 1st century BC if you want to look it up) that depict her as a fair skinned woman with a greek style hairdo, with a diadem and all. Even the coins with her image depict her as a mediterranean/levantine woman.
I love to have discovered your channel, even if it was over something as ridiculous as a Tik Toker claiming ancient Rome wasn't real. You add so much to youtube. Much love from another librarian and dog mama!
This was extremely fun and fascinating. What an amazing family tree. And they certainly did keep it in the family. I honestly had no clue there had been so many Cleopatras.
Interesting video. I find the debate kinda silly because instead of using this to prove that race is a social construct dependent on politics and power, they try to force the past into a modern essentialist framework. The entire Mediterranean region challenges our conceptualization of race. Even today, there isn't consensus in where the the line is between "white" and POC. Egyptians, Persians, Turks, Greeks, Spaniards, Italians, etc have all been on both sides at different times or different places in recent history. Just where I've lived in the US (upper south/lower midwest, northern midwest, and southern new england) that line is different in all 3 areas
FYI, whoever said that Greeks or Italians could pass as POC must have been insane or, alternatively, an American.
According to the new Netflix documentary... *yes*
I don't think the ancient world was nearly as interested in the physical appearance of race as we are. They did care about legitimacy, they cared about cultural identity but it is much more questionable whether they cared about race.
I also suspect that a lot of their descriptions (e.g. snowy white breast) are as trustworthy as the painted depictions where "yellow" was used to represent both Europeans but also women, so it was doing double duty as both a literal depiction (or close to a literal depiction) but also a symbolic or metaphorical depiction.
I think that depends on the time and place in history. The Mediterranean world from the Bronze Age to the fall of Rome was very multicultural in regards to black, brown, olive and pale people mixing. When the Huns turned up later on though, they were definitely regarded as if the Martians had just landed, though they themselves also appear to have been a multi ethnic coalition of Asiatic, Iranian and Germanic people.
They didn't ... and did. Not race as post-19th century America perceives it, but they did have ideas about people based around skin tone. The ancient Greeks had weird ideas about Subsaharan Africans or even Ethiopians as "burnt" people and the medieval Persians were going around saying that people from the 'extremes' of climates, with paler-than-them or darker-than-them skin were "naturally suited to being slaves"
this is very true. I dont think race was really something people thought about much until slavery became tied to race...which really only happened after the europeans decided enslaving each other was wrong. Still slavery was common throughout the rest of the world so European powers that wanted to buy these slaves needed a way to justify it so they created race theory on why it was okay.
There was still racial think before that but it was more tribal, for example there were romans of all different skin colors, and Italians that weren't considered roman.
Race is a new concept
I agree
In the immortal words of Jeff Foxworthy: "If your family tree overlaps, you may be an Ancient Egyptian."
The only possible alternative explanation I've heard for Cleopatra's ethnicity is that her mother might've been native Egyptian; Cleopatra was the only ruling Ptolemy who spoke Egyptian, she heavily patronized the Cult of Isis, and who her mother might've been might be not so clear cut, so it wouldn't be too out there for a director to assume that despite being part of a Greek dynasty, Cleopatra might've had some mixed ancestry. It wouldn't be the first time for a Pharaoh having dual-heritages.
However, even then she wouldn't look that different from the rest of her family and having a black woman play as her would still historically inaccurate. I get the desire for more diversity and a push for representation, but Egypt is a did and done deal. The people living there now in all likelihood looked no different than Egyptians two-thousand years ago.
Didn't they do a test on some mummies and concluded (or at least considered it evidence that) Egypt is actually more black now than it was back then?
I get what you are saying, but playing the Devil's advocate, the people living in Egypt now are Arabic. Ancient Egyptians weren't Arabic. They weren't Numidian, which is what black northern Africans were referred to, although Numidians did co-exist with Egyptians.
@@garymaidman625 there are two major Egyptian ethnic groups, Coptic Christians and Arabs. They both descend from the same people, their only differences being religion and language, and even then most Copts speak Arabic for obvious reasons.
Egypt stopped being Egyptian near the end of the Roman Empire, but there was never a massive dying off of Egyptians or Egyptian culture, it all just changed.
Euraser will do that… as much as people want to praise the euro conquest and racial ambiguity of Egypt it is still a predominantly ethnically Black Country .. with very mixed ethnicities dated back to Eurasian conquest, pillaging and classism …
We literally have wall paintings from the tombs which show what they looked like, there was no euraser unless you are talking about about the indo-aryan invasions thousands of years before and that basically didn't effect sub-sharian people's at all. There have been population exchanges, Celts used to be more widespread, the was less Germanic influence, central Asia was populated by Caucasian people's rather and Turkic one's prior to the Mongol genocide and there were even blond haired people in China at one point, there is however no record genetic, recorded or implied of what you are talking about, if things were as racialied as you seem to think then not only would many of the events I talked about not have happened but the plan already would have been put in place in the 19th century and worked rather than introducing the medical advances which lead to the massive growth of populations you seem to think are being targeted, there was not lack of means there was a lack of motivation because no-one was conspiring as you claim.
Even if one of those *"gaps"* were of North African origin, it doesn't make her "Black" as in the recent movie. Genetically she would be very slightly NAf then - around 10-12%. The rest will still be Macedonian with a tinge of Persian and Syrian. Bottom line is, it would have still been very difficult to recognize her as a black af person visually. Therefore, Hollywood representation is still a fake, not to mention that even this is an imaginary scenario because there is absolutely no info on what those "gaps" mean.
Yep, given her family tradition of inbreed and eliminations, a black Cleopatra would mean a "dead at birth" Cleopatra. In no uncertain terms.
I completely agree with you, but feel something should be clarified. The actress is not pure Sub Saharan Black African descent, but half of her genetics/DNA is Caucasian. It is inaccurate to refer to her as simply "black" when she is clearly mixed. She is much lighter skinned (for example) than many people who are of more pure Sub Saharan black descent.
But yes, still not a good choice, because it is very unlikely that Cleopatra had half Sub Saharan black genetics/DNA, and was probably 100% Caucasian, which also includes Persian/Iranian, Syrian, and some North African groups/peoples. Egypt itself is quite mixed, and there is indeed some Sub Saharan Black genetics in there somewhat, but mostly in the far south, near to the border of Sudan.
Imagine the chaos sending christmas gifts to each other in the Ptolemaic family.
"Is this one for Cleopatra?"
"Which one?"
Especially "Before Christ"...
@@mr.dorianblackwell congratulations, you got the joke
So...the family tree of the Cleopatra's is basically...a circle.
Great video. Royalty Now Studios made a video of what they imagined Cleo looked like.
I think this is a good example of modern documentaries and series taking creative liberties which result in people assuming that its true.
From what other historians mentioned. Cleo wasn't pure white and she definitely wasn't black. The fact that there is barely any mention of her appearance means that she was a regular Mediterranean girl doing whatever Mediterranean girls do, Starbucks at Alexandria Library, Instagram dates at the Pantheon, wine and bread with the girls in Rome.
You reminded me of that Time Squad episode with Cleopatra, those Egyptians and their malls!
The fact that there isn't anything written down, even by the romans who hated her is the biggest clue. I told a friend that and she agreed.
Valid points, well stated.
About 20 generations of mothers are known to be of Macedonian Greek heritage with along the way Iranian and Syrian genes sprinkled in and we are supposed to believe that suddenly the two gaps are Nubian women? Hmmm, I would take Occam´s Razor on this one.
I just ran across your channel and I have to say off subject you are perfect. I also enjoyed your content. Great work
I appreciate that!
her genetic makeup may not have been straight forward but her family tree definitely was...
I've been thinking about Cleopatra's ancestry since high school, so thank you for this well researched video!
You're so welcome!
People are still talking about what Cleaopatra looked like so why not someone like Lucan who was not that far removed?
Whether legitimate or illegitimate daughter, Cleopatra had to look pure Helenic Greek, we are talking about the successor of the Egyptian Throne; there were competing family member for the throne. If she was born looking different from her parents, she would have been ousted or killed by another Royal family member. The Romans certainly would have called her bastard.
Also, were not the Selucids royalty at the time also Macedonian/Greek? as they were conquered by Alexander the Great, and his top generals split the conquered territories after death.
Greeks are Caucasian. Liz Taylor was Caucasian. That's a heck of a lot closer than picking a black person to play a Caucasian.
Greeks =/= Caucasians. Neither was Liz Taylor. "Caucasian" means people from the Caucaus region.
@@JohnDoe-qm8nsThank you. 👏
1, Cleopatra was part of the Greek Ptolemaic lineage, installed in Egypt by Alexander the Great.
2, In 2017 they began extracting DNA from teeth of mummies spanning from earliest to latest periods of Egyptian history: there's almost no Sub-Saharan African DNA in the genetic timeline till around 400 A.D. and later.
3, There exists coinage of the day, which bares her likeness - we can see depictions of her, made in her lifetime, we know what she looked like: she wasn't Black.
Best explanation of her race/ethnicity given. Good research. Well done.
I never understood why people argue over the Egyptians race. I'm pretty sure it was a really diverse culture. Full of Greek, middle eastern, and African people. It was a major hub back then.
Cuz there's a lot of terminally online people who need them to be black because they wanna feel better and so they make conspiracy theories about it and then people who want to be "allies" then back their crazy with full force even if it doesn't make a lick of sense.
Royalty throughout time was the opposite of diverse
@@Sshooter444I wasn't referring to royalty. I was talking about the people as a whole. And you should watch the video it actually refuted what you said about royalty in Egypt.
Yes and at one time everyone shaved there head and wore a black wig.
@@burniejarvis9298 No it did not. They were probably the most incestuous lineage I've ever heard of. Regardless if they had a mix of persian and greek way back, for centuries it was "all in the family".