I want to make a comment talking about accuracy because Cruza, and now a comment, have both assumed that it is my belief that debuffs that don't deal damage are more accurate than something that deals damage and debuffs, like fusilier's stop shot. I know that it is the same accuracy and I knew that when I made my first video. When I say that other jobs can do fusilier stop but better, I am referring to opportunity cost. Why use fusilier when juggler has stop and juggler is objectively the best job for moogles? Juggler stop may not be at gun range but with ninja tabi, it might as well be. It may not deal damage but does that matter? What matters is getting the stop off and purposely using a fusilier over a juggler for inconsequential damage is not worth it. Anyways, I hope I don't come off as rude and my apologies if I do. Just want to clear this up.
Truly we live in enlightened times. 47:30 I come from FFTA (the prequel) where following the law wasn't a choice, so now that I have the option to ignore the fed I do so at my convenience. Eat my shorts your honor
@@yeahright5030 Unfortunately PVP would just boil down to fielding 5 max statted jugglers/mog knights and 1 utility pick and whoever gets their turn first wins because they can quicken their units and run over to ultima.
So this is hilarious. I'm currently playing through FFTA2 for the first time, and need as much help with building a team as possible, so with that I've been consuming all the videos I can. I stumbled upon the tier lists and now I MAYBE be the sole witness to the Game of Thrones of FFTA2 tier lists, with ever increasing frequency. It certainly is entertaining. I'm 50 hours into the game at this point and still probably done too many side quests to be any where near done. That said I'm enjoying it very much. Almost as much as the tier list analysis. Do I need a Sniper????????
All this talk of how good Parivir is has me wondering how good the class would really be in pvp, although A2 has a ton of instakill abilities that would probably make it pretty un-fun. I actually am playing through FFTA1 right now with XCOM rules of permadeath and forcing myself to recruit every unit the game offers up to 16 members total. I think the evaluation of class balance gets a lot more interesting when you have to actually keep units alive since you have to be a lot more careful with glass cannons. I've been trying to think up a similar ruleset for FFTA2, but I have the issue that the recruitment isn't nearly as random so I'd have to set up some kind of dice roll system (but then how do I do Gria since they don't come online until halfway through the game :/) and FFTA2 seems to have way more broken nonsense than FFTA1 weirdly. Still, I think maybe an implicit statement in all these tier lists is that the balance exists only in the vacuum of whether or not it can clear all the PvE content in the game, and not the context of a permadeath run or PvP, where I think things would change in interesting ways. Just something I'm thinking about watching these. In my own rules, I would probably ban things like Parivir to keep runs interesting and varied since its attack damage almost seems like a bug with how high it is, since they hit as hard as a Fighter's Beatdown but with perfect accuracy, which is just completely broken and dumb Also, the ribbon-bearer Tinker thing wasn't my idea, but I think it's worth noting that on average Tinker's debuff ability in that circumstance even with 50/50 accuracy is still going to be quite turn-positive if you think of it as debuffing 3 enemies per turn. And unlike other debuff classes, it ignores positioning entirely. Tinker also has excellent growths, probably second only to Mog Knight. Even so, it's a very niche use-case for sure
Yeah obviously things become more or less valuable depending on certain things. For a generic list though I think its best to just consider how well a job is able to win each of the 300 missions in the game. That way you can kind of cover even challenge runs to some degree. I briefly talked about it to another commentor but PVP would be very boring and basically come down to whoever gets the first move wins. Simply because things like critical quicken red mage juggler and Double quicken ultima strategies exist. PVP would need to be HEAVILY restricted and like self balanced (not easy to do!) before it becomes reasonable.
So talking about Fusilier you bring up an issue I have with all these tier lists. People discuss these classes as if they are available from the beginning of the game (for the most part). But somebody should do a guide to what aim for by when. It is super important to the progression of the game. And frustrating to hear about very advanced developed units that may only be available right at the end.
Yeah I mean its tough. I want to be as fair as possible and put all of the jobs on the same playing field but you're right something like trickster you basically don't get to use for at least half of the game if not more. In the end I suppose its up the the person on whether or not you can put more emphasis on WHEN you obtain a job. Because theoretically the game can be infinite, and you can chose to rush unlocking jobs as early as possible, I decided not to not put as much emphasis on that when evaluating the value of a job.
@@KizzyJay I totally agree on the approach that these tier lists are put together. It makes complete sense, but yes I wish there was maybe another guide that was based on what the player needs to aim for, by when. I suppose the fun of the game is finding that out.
I would like to push back on the evasion discourse (with Ninja and light armors especially). Taking overall 15% less damage with 15 evasion is technically not even true (as not all attacks have 100% base hit rate), but also it's the most unreliable thing ever, in a game called "tactics". If it's not 100%, well, "it might as well be 0%" is a bit of an exaggeration, but also the right way to think about it. Nice if it happens, but you really shouldn't play around it.
I would like to push back on the push back. True not every attack has a % chance to land, but like almost all of them in the whole game are? Like I said, it doesnt EXACTLY mean "15% damage reduction" but over the course of when you get ninja garb to the end of the game, even in practice, it does. If defensive stats don't matter but ninja garb can get you 15% chance to NOT DIE (that is not insignificant) then you will take it. Simple as. Considering Light armor is the most common armor type that jobs can have, slapping ninja garb on a full team gives you enough results to make it out perform hitting yourself with magick to restore hp.
You guys arent factoring clan privilege at all. It changes the landscape of the game heavily. Some things are wholly possible only with privileges. I may do a tier list on my gaming channel cuz i feel you're both missing a lot if information
@@Thedarkniterises Feel free to evaluate your list however you want. However, I thought it was obvious why we didn't talk about privileges. Simple fact is that privileges are not discriminatory to jobs. If a job required a privilege to even be fielded then sure we could have that conversation but none of them do. You require going out of your way to achieve specific privileges and even then, as Cruza puts it, fights where it matters, you can potentially break the law anyway. Point is that this is a JOB tier list and privileges are roughly, across the board, neutral to all job classes. Saying we are both "missing a lot of information" is in bad faith because we are not making guides here. But to each their own, i made my list because I disagreed with some of what cruza was saying. If you feel the same then go for it! It is always interesting seeing other perspectives on this game.
@@KizzyJayNo, not bad faith. Just an observation. I'm a honest person so I say what I say. I've listened to all your videos and lists. I think most of it is spot on you both have good arguments and my list wouldn't be much different. However, I have all the hex data and modules to look in the game and some of the stuff said isn't always accurate. And sometimes cuzra admits he doesn't know. If one make a tier list I expect one to know if an attack is physical or magical based or the accuracy of attacks which has been mixed up a few times or just not known this skews placing. Not a dig on on anyone. I don't expect ppl to know everything. I think privileges are a fine discussion and addition it's in every battle and effects the game. You HAVE to pick one lol. There aren't many mission in the game that have strict laws. I know I've edited them all personally... Twice! I've made 2 full edited games that ppl play. At most there are 10 I'll be generous and say maybe 15 missions with annoying laws out of 300. And most of them are behind the clan trials themselves. I can even name the missions here. Most missions are like "no lightning or ice". With 90% of the law avoidable, what jobs can do withing privileges are a talking point. It can make a B tier job A or an A tier S. Some missions I gladly forfeit halve MP for MP channelling allowing me to have geomency allowing me to throw boosted AGA spells off every turn with no other unit to support me. That takes away one turn of having to increase my units MP. That's super duper valuable and can't be understated. With a setup like that black mages almost always deal damage on par my rangers with mirror items and im hitting multiple targets. It easily boosts a black mages potential up by a large margin making their damage potential similar to an S tier. But hey, if you don't wanna factor them in, it's your list. Overall I like what you guys have done. Don't take my comments as anything but me trying to be objective.
@@Thedarkniterises Let me put it this way, is Black Mage B tier in missions where you cant use ice or lightning and all of the enemies are immune to fire? No, of course not. You said it yourself though, those situations come up so rarely that to evaluate Black Mage being useless in 1 or even 5% of fights is not an intelligent way to comprehend the job. Every job in the game has a mission or two that they simply are useless in. My point is that you are being needlessly nitpicky about things that, in the grand scheme of the whole game -or even if you consider only the truly hard and important missions like cruza, a privilege or law making or breaking a job is essentially a non-factor. Yes, they are in every mission (except three, potentially four) but that does not mean they have noticeable impact in every mission. You can chose to not engage with privileges and most laws are laughably easy to skirt around. As for us not knowing if fusilier or dragoon or whatever's abilities are physical or magick, that should be telling on what the job is, not cruza and myself's ability to get our facts right. I, being the less experienced of the two of us, have 1000 hours in the game. Cruza told me that he has 4500 hours as of two days ago. What I mean is that if we don't know then that typically just means that the information is not important enough for us to care to know. Dragoon's breath attacks being physical or magick based does not matter when either way you look at it, the skills are still bad. You aren't using dragoon for a physical elemental hit, you are using parivir. You arent using fusilier to deal damage, you are using them to inflict debilitating debuffs at long range. Cruza and I both talk about this in our videos and we both even say in the cases that we don't know, that it does not matter if we don't know because whatever is right will not be an important enough factor to changing where we place the job. Now this isn't to say we can't be wrong about something. Take cruza's evaluation of ninja and alchemist, take my evaluation of fusilier and not even knowing absorb mp exists. However, when we are wrong, we correct it and state how that changes our placement of those jobs. What is the point of us making videos to respond to each other if not to specifically compare notes and learn from what the other person has to say? Please don't take my responses to you as anything hostile. I never meant to cause a fight or anything. I also appreciate what you have to say and the praise you have to give. I guess my point in saying anything at all was specifically to encourage you to make your own list and form your own opinions. In this type of content, it is really difficult to think and prove that you can be objective about it all. When in reality, it all is subjective and it just comes down to what you feel is right. You can be objective to what you value and the rules you give yourself but what you value and the rules you give yourself is, in of itself, subjective. To argue that what you believe is right is more objective than someone else is the essence of philosophy and has been a topic of intrigue since the dawn of humanity. All of this is to say, I will not stop you from believing what you want, but I do hope you and everyone else can understand me and cruza based on our perspectives that we presented.
@@KizzyJayyes I believe all fields of fair play would be with the law system since it's a mechanic that is present in every combat situation wether the player likes it or not. You also don't just Willy nilly pick a privilege. you see the forbidden, You get to scope the battlefield, place your units then pick it. I think it's worth noting how well a job interacts with a system that can be held up 90% of the time with little effort. I ran countless tests where B tiers ended up outperforming S tiers(map dependent ofc) almost 40% of the time while maintaining the law easy. I use to just run headlong into fights using the "most broken stuff" but realized the games landscape is rather complex when you think outside the box. P.s I think gria are actually good. Ppl undersell how good inate fly is. In most PvP tactics fights it's a support skill ppl often utilize. And I respect your opinion. It's a conversation. I don't take internet comments personally. I can't read your tone of voice through text so I just assume you're being respectful
@@KizzyJaydunno if my previous comment got shadow banned cuz it's gone after I edited it.(YT amirite?😂) But you're good. I respect you opinion. I personally feel a system that has to be interacted with can't be ignored. Tis all
i like this vid but the whole argumentation around ultima spam feels weird. Spaming quicken/ smile toss back and forth to cheese out infinite mp/ movement is nothing short of cheese. And if using cheese strats is a factor, then everything should be D Tier except for Red mage, Summoner and Juggler. But yeah just my opinion.
You are exactly right. What does fusilier matter in the face of double juggler mog knight? What does anything matter in the face of 6 redmage blood price summoners? Everything else is not even on the same playing field. My point in bringing it up is to express that we need to be fair to the other jobs. When cruza tells me bishop is bad it is always through the lens of "oh just use magick frenzy instead" and like that doesnt make bishop bad though. Does that make any sense? You can't say sniper is bad in comparison to parivir because EVERYTHING is bad in comparison to parivir.
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I want to make a comment talking about accuracy because Cruza, and now a comment, have both assumed that it is my belief that debuffs that don't deal damage are more accurate than something that deals damage and debuffs, like fusilier's stop shot. I know that it is the same accuracy and I knew that when I made my first video.
When I say that other jobs can do fusilier stop but better, I am referring to opportunity cost. Why use fusilier when juggler has stop and juggler is objectively the best job for moogles? Juggler stop may not be at gun range but with ninja tabi, it might as well be. It may not deal damage but does that matter? What matters is getting the stop off and purposely using a fusilier over a juggler for inconsequential damage is not worth it.
Anyways, I hope I don't come off as rude and my apologies if I do. Just want to clear this up.
Truly we live in enlightened times.
47:30 I come from FFTA (the prequel) where following the law wasn't a choice, so now that I have the option to ignore the fed I do so at my convenience. Eat my shorts your honor
@@CruzaComplex Oh boo hoo. I guess Ill enjoy my boosted movement without you then.
It’s moments like this that make me wish FFTA2 had a PVP so you and Cruza could duke it out. And throw CoffeePotato in there too.
@@yeahright5030 Unfortunately PVP would just boil down to fielding 5 max statted jugglers/mog knights and 1 utility pick and whoever gets their turn first wins because they can quicken their units and run over to ultima.
So this is hilarious. I'm currently playing through FFTA2 for the first time, and need as much help with building a team as possible, so with that I've been consuming all the videos I can. I stumbled upon the tier lists and now I MAYBE be the sole witness to the Game of Thrones of FFTA2 tier lists, with ever increasing frequency.
It certainly is entertaining. I'm 50 hours into the game at this point and still probably done too many side quests to be any where near done. That said I'm enjoying it very much. Almost as much as the tier list analysis. Do I need a Sniper????????
the only thing i can tell you is this: Sniper? Oh god yes.
@@KizzyJay haha! nice.
All this talk of how good Parivir is has me wondering how good the class would really be in pvp, although A2 has a ton of instakill abilities that would probably make it pretty un-fun. I actually am playing through FFTA1 right now with XCOM rules of permadeath and forcing myself to recruit every unit the game offers up to 16 members total. I think the evaluation of class balance gets a lot more interesting when you have to actually keep units alive since you have to be a lot more careful with glass cannons. I've been trying to think up a similar ruleset for FFTA2, but I have the issue that the recruitment isn't nearly as random so I'd have to set up some kind of dice roll system (but then how do I do Gria since they don't come online until halfway through the game :/) and FFTA2 seems to have way more broken nonsense than FFTA1 weirdly.
Still, I think maybe an implicit statement in all these tier lists is that the balance exists only in the vacuum of whether or not it can clear all the PvE content in the game, and not the context of a permadeath run or PvP, where I think things would change in interesting ways. Just something I'm thinking about watching these. In my own rules, I would probably ban things like Parivir to keep runs interesting and varied since its attack damage almost seems like a bug with how high it is, since they hit as hard as a Fighter's Beatdown but with perfect accuracy, which is just completely broken and dumb
Also, the ribbon-bearer Tinker thing wasn't my idea, but I think it's worth noting that on average Tinker's debuff ability in that circumstance even with 50/50 accuracy is still going to be quite turn-positive if you think of it as debuffing 3 enemies per turn. And unlike other debuff classes, it ignores positioning entirely. Tinker also has excellent growths, probably second only to Mog Knight. Even so, it's a very niche use-case for sure
Yeah obviously things become more or less valuable depending on certain things. For a generic list though I think its best to just consider how well a job is able to win each of the 300 missions in the game. That way you can kind of cover even challenge runs to some degree.
I briefly talked about it to another commentor but PVP would be very boring and basically come down to whoever gets the first move wins. Simply because things like critical quicken red mage juggler and Double quicken ultima strategies exist. PVP would need to be HEAVILY restricted and like self balanced (not easy to do!) before it becomes reasonable.
So talking about Fusilier you bring up an issue I have with all these tier lists. People discuss these classes as if they are available from the beginning of the game (for the most part). But somebody should do a guide to what aim for by when. It is super important to the progression of the game. And frustrating to hear about very advanced developed units that may only be available right at the end.
Yeah I mean its tough. I want to be as fair as possible and put all of the jobs on the same playing field but you're right something like trickster you basically don't get to use for at least half of the game if not more.
In the end I suppose its up the the person on whether or not you can put more emphasis on WHEN you obtain a job. Because theoretically the game can be infinite, and you can chose to rush unlocking jobs as early as possible, I decided not to not put as much emphasis on that when evaluating the value of a job.
@@KizzyJay I totally agree on the approach that these tier lists are put together. It makes complete sense, but yes I wish there was maybe another guide that was based on what the player needs to aim for, by when. I suppose the fun of the game is finding that out.
@@aminekostone1411 Yeah and I mean in the end, the wiki exists for specifics and gamefaqs or neoseeker are great for step by step guides.
In the world of Ivalice, it's min maxing to transition. We love women out here.
If you can wear a ribbon then you are kino
I would like to push back on the evasion discourse (with Ninja and light armors especially). Taking overall 15% less damage with 15 evasion is technically not even true (as not all attacks have 100% base hit rate), but also it's the most unreliable thing ever, in a game called "tactics". If it's not 100%, well, "it might as well be 0%" is a bit of an exaggeration, but also the right way to think about it. Nice if it happens, but you really shouldn't play around it.
I would like to push back on the push back. True not every attack has a % chance to land, but like almost all of them in the whole game are? Like I said, it doesnt EXACTLY mean "15% damage reduction" but over the course of when you get ninja garb to the end of the game, even in practice, it does.
If defensive stats don't matter but ninja garb can get you 15% chance to NOT DIE (that is not insignificant) then you will take it. Simple as. Considering Light armor is the most common armor type that jobs can have, slapping ninja garb on a full team gives you enough results to make it out perform hitting yourself with magick to restore hp.
You guys arent factoring clan privilege at all. It changes the landscape of the game heavily. Some things are wholly possible only with privileges. I may do a tier list on my gaming channel cuz i feel you're both missing a lot if information
@@Thedarkniterises Feel free to evaluate your list however you want. However, I thought it was obvious why we didn't talk about privileges.
Simple fact is that privileges are not discriminatory to jobs. If a job required a privilege to even be fielded then sure we could have that conversation but none of them do. You require going out of your way to achieve specific privileges and even then, as Cruza puts it, fights where it matters, you can potentially break the law anyway.
Point is that this is a JOB tier list and privileges are roughly, across the board, neutral to all job classes. Saying we are both "missing a lot of information" is in bad faith because we are not making guides here. But to each their own, i made my list because I disagreed with some of what cruza was saying. If you feel the same then go for it! It is always interesting seeing other perspectives on this game.
@@KizzyJayNo, not bad faith. Just an observation. I'm a honest person so I say what I say. I've listened to all your videos and lists. I think most of it is spot on you both have good arguments and my list wouldn't be much different. However, I have all the hex data and modules to look in the game and some of the stuff said isn't always accurate. And sometimes cuzra admits he doesn't know. If one make a tier list I expect one to know if an attack is physical or magical based or the accuracy of attacks which has been mixed up a few times or just not known this skews placing. Not a dig on on anyone. I don't expect ppl to know everything.
I think privileges are a fine discussion and addition it's in every battle and effects the game. You HAVE to pick one lol. There aren't many mission in the game that have strict laws. I know I've edited them all personally... Twice! I've made 2 full edited games that ppl play. At most there are 10 I'll be generous and say maybe 15 missions with annoying laws out of 300. And most of them are behind the clan trials themselves. I can even name the missions here. Most missions are like "no lightning or ice". With 90% of the law avoidable, what jobs can do withing privileges are a talking point. It can make a B tier job A or an A tier S. Some missions I gladly forfeit halve MP for MP channelling allowing me to have geomency allowing me to throw boosted AGA spells off every turn with no other unit to support me. That takes away one turn of having to increase my units MP. That's super duper valuable and can't be understated. With a setup like that black mages almost always deal damage on par my rangers with mirror items and im hitting multiple targets. It easily boosts a black mages potential up by a large margin making their damage potential similar to an S tier. But hey, if you don't wanna factor them in, it's your list. Overall I like what you guys have done. Don't take my comments as anything but me trying to be objective.
@@Thedarkniterises Let me put it this way, is Black Mage B tier in missions where you cant use ice or lightning and all of the enemies are immune to fire? No, of course not. You said it yourself though, those situations come up so rarely that to evaluate Black Mage being useless in 1 or even 5% of fights is not an intelligent way to comprehend the job. Every job in the game has a mission or two that they simply are useless in. My point is that you are being needlessly nitpicky about things that, in the grand scheme of the whole game -or even if you consider only the truly hard and important missions like cruza, a privilege or law making or breaking a job is essentially a non-factor. Yes, they are in every mission (except three, potentially four) but that does not mean they have noticeable impact in every mission. You can chose to not engage with privileges and most laws are laughably easy to skirt around.
As for us not knowing if fusilier or dragoon or whatever's abilities are physical or magick, that should be telling on what the job is, not cruza and myself's ability to get our facts right. I, being the less experienced of the two of us, have 1000 hours in the game. Cruza told me that he has 4500 hours as of two days ago. What I mean is that if we don't know then that typically just means that the information is not important enough for us to care to know. Dragoon's breath attacks being physical or magick based does not matter when either way you look at it, the skills are still bad. You aren't using dragoon for a physical elemental hit, you are using parivir. You arent using fusilier to deal damage, you are using them to inflict debilitating debuffs at long range. Cruza and I both talk about this in our videos and we both even say in the cases that we don't know, that it does not matter if we don't know because whatever is right will not be an important enough factor to changing where we place the job.
Now this isn't to say we can't be wrong about something. Take cruza's evaluation of ninja and alchemist, take my evaluation of fusilier and not even knowing absorb mp exists. However, when we are wrong, we correct it and state how that changes our placement of those jobs. What is the point of us making videos to respond to each other if not to specifically compare notes and learn from what the other person has to say?
Please don't take my responses to you as anything hostile. I never meant to cause a fight or anything. I also appreciate what you have to say and the praise you have to give. I guess my point in saying anything at all was specifically to encourage you to make your own list and form your own opinions. In this type of content, it is really difficult to think and prove that you can be objective about it all. When in reality, it all is subjective and it just comes down to what you feel is right. You can be objective to what you value and the rules you give yourself but what you value and the rules you give yourself is, in of itself, subjective. To argue that what you believe is right is more objective than someone else is the essence of philosophy and has been a topic of intrigue since the dawn of humanity. All of this is to say, I will not stop you from believing what you want, but I do hope you and everyone else can understand me and cruza based on our perspectives that we presented.
@@KizzyJayyes I believe all fields of fair play would be with the law system since it's a mechanic that is present in every combat situation wether the player likes it or not. You also don't just Willy nilly pick a privilege. you see the forbidden, You get to scope the battlefield, place your units then pick it. I think it's worth noting how well a job interacts with a system that can be held up 90% of the time with little effort.
I ran countless tests where B tiers ended up outperforming S tiers(map dependent ofc) almost 40% of the time while maintaining the law easy. I use to just run headlong into fights using the "most broken stuff" but realized the games landscape is rather complex when you think outside the box.
P.s I think gria are actually good. Ppl undersell how good inate fly is. In most PvP tactics fights it's a support skill ppl often utilize.
And I respect your opinion. It's a conversation. I don't take internet comments personally. I can't read your tone of voice through text so I just assume you're being respectful
@@KizzyJaydunno if my previous comment got shadow banned cuz it's gone after I edited it.(YT amirite?😂) But you're good. I respect you opinion. I personally feel a system that has to be interacted with can't be ignored. Tis all
i like this vid but the whole argumentation around ultima spam feels weird.
Spaming quicken/ smile toss back and forth to cheese out infinite mp/ movement is nothing short of cheese. And if using cheese strats is a factor, then everything should be D Tier except for Red mage, Summoner and Juggler.
But yeah just my opinion.
You are exactly right. What does fusilier matter in the face of double juggler mog knight? What does anything matter in the face of 6 redmage blood price summoners? Everything else is not even on the same playing field.
My point in bringing it up is to express that we need to be fair to the other jobs. When cruza tells me bishop is bad it is always through the lens of "oh just use magick frenzy instead" and like that doesnt make bishop bad though. Does that make any sense? You can't say sniper is bad in comparison to parivir because EVERYTHING is bad in comparison to parivir.