Good videos Sivat. Great to see someone using logic and calculating stats mathematically to show advantages and disadvantages rather than opinion backed up by an unclear battle vid. Keep em coming.
For the most part I would agree with this. However if you run t10s with a longer engagement time or dislike juggling modules, in a lot of cases you can make a armor tank work good enough and not have to worry about cap.
Yup. And the medium armor reps are the best armor reps. The CD on the large armor reps is out of whack compared to every other booster/repairer. However, all Angel Cartel ships are missing 10% armor EM resistance compared to their Minmatar cousins.
Although it's minute for these big ships you forgot to factor in the maximum natural shield recharge rate. (max shield/recharge time) * 2,5. And what I do myself to be cap stable is to downsize the shield booster.
Cap management is required for shield tanking, such as killing the prop mod when engaging. Also I would be running an extra NOS instead of the scram and even an extra web instead of the painter.
Oh I agree, I was just fitting them out equally to showcase the diffrence. Definaly have to make adjustments to what you are using and whats best for your ship.
I feel like Armor plates are a huge benefit to mitigating DPS so id love to see the math run out on dps mitigation with alternating 2 plates and 2 larges or something in similar terms.
great video, really covered everything that every average content creator forgot to mention. I was wondering, what if you replaced the second shield booster on the rookh and replaced it with a third adaptive? It would be cap stable and rep more than the double repped abbadon. Can i get the numbers for that? Would be super cool :)
Finally the explanation I was expecting - I must say I laughed when I watched both Benzie and Sovereign's videos preaching "Shield tank everything" - without going as deep into calculations as you did. And while this video does not prove them wrong, it does, at the same time. It all depends on the type of ship you're flying, and what you're gonna use the ship for. Shield are definitely not ALWAYS better, like they were saying - and, most importantly, even in the situations where they are, they are not better by much. To the point where you can actually fit a ship exclusively designed to be a shield tank, with an armor tank, and still be safer, for a longer time. So, to sum it up - it's exactly like you said - in the end it all depends on your play style - not even that much on the type of ship - and what you're gonna use the ship for. And that's a choice everyone has. Something both Benzie and Sovereign "forgot" to mention.
Thank you for all the kind words, I really appreciate it! I don't think anyone should feel bad with how they chose to enjoy the game, and just because something is not the best does not mean it is not effective.
Shield tanking is defiantly better in terms of damage mitigation, true you might not be cap stable but what good is stability in a fight that can break your tank and kill your ship. I figure 4 minutes stability is good enough to either run away, kill the opponent, or your dead anyway.
I love people who shield tank amd all we have to do is run neuts ina. Fleet amd y'all just screwed even with yall nos. Please people keep going shield tank. Please please please. Our neut fleet loves you on our kill mils
@@A1Sums Neuts work equally well on Armour tanks. Turns any ship into a brick, Armageddons are great for that, or If you have the isk a Ashimmu or Bhaalgorn.
@@beng7845 idk we always have a harder time against armor tanks with neuts then vs shield that lose cap in under 30 secs compared to armor that sometimes has taken several mins
Great video! Thanks. You accidentally swapped numbers for armor and shield when calculating shield tank. It's 327 raw hp for armor, and 386 raw hp for shield. You calculated with 327 for both getting 1635 dps tank for armor and 1817 dps tank for shield (shield should use 386/.18 for a 2144 dps tank). For the Rokh you realized the mistake and used 386 raw hp getting 2969 dps tank.
@@TMOGamer don't worry about it. It can happen to anyone. I'm glad that someone went through all the trouble and actually shared all that information. Keep it up!
Thank you. I still think with average engagements shield tanking is better overall, but armor tanking is not bad and works good enough for a very long time or forever. If you wana play mostly afk and want a threshold for mistakes it works way better. If you want optimal peak performance but have to pay close attention shield tanking works best, but slight errors can cost you.
As a prophecy user, in my opinion, there is no point doing T10 stories when you look at the isk/hr ratio. Best to keep to T8s. Group Reps and long-range drones FTW at 92km.
Assuming your weapons rigs have drone range augmentors and you stay at long range you dont need to tank much - group armour reps and drone damage mods in the lows you can just sit at range and blap everything
@@phyoishere I went through pretty much all the storyline missions in my proph and I can tell you that the winner for most ISK/hour is a T10 (Bad Hare Day, although looking at how the price for it is rising I guess a lot of people figured that out already), followed pretty closely by a couple of T8s. But the place where the T10 wins for me is in being AFK-able for longer periods (while you kill the battleships at the end, after you've taken out the elites) and spending more time in actual battle instead of travelling.
At like 2 min in where you’re showing that fitting window and stats. What are you using? That’s not the in game fitting window, is it an app or website?
I love people who shield tank amd all we have to do is run neuts ina. Fleet amd y'all just screwed even with yall nos. Please people keep going shield tank. Please please please. Our neut fleet loves you on our kill mils
Thank you for the video. I found my self disagreeing with like half of what you did or said or how it was presented. Sorry.. Like your final conclusion at 29:30 was just plain nonsense. The shield tank was capstable, took less damage AND healed for more.. but you conclude armour was basically better in cap.. listen.. you removed 1 shield booster.. good. Now add the third shield hardener instead and use average resist not lowest. If one is 80% and the other 100% it would be very bad math to go with 80%. And in battle the increase from the yellow shield will boost shield Ehp healing alot as each singular point in resist has bigger and bigger effect, especially after passing 85%.
Thank you, and nothing to be sorry for. Yes average would be better but even thats not perfect, it would be best if we knew the exact numbers of each type. As far as removing one mod its stable at far less reping. Overall I was trying to say there are a lot of ships out there that are cap stable armor tanking but not when shield tanking. So if you are already mitigating enough damage with a cap stable armor tank theres no need to use a shield tank. Its good enough. However shield tanking will stop more damage but in a lot of cases for no where near as long.
@@TMOGamer the amazing thing about shield tanking is the high numbers, but your example didn't really hit them so you never saw the benefit. The higher the resist, the more value each healed hit points has, this is very important and not mentioned, its non linear, which is why you need to get into the area where it really takes off. And i feel like you maybe didn't fully realise this. Going from 0 to 50% resist double your ehp. Going from 50 to 75% doubles it again From 75 to 87,5% doubles it again. This is where armour stops, mid 80 for a good armour ship. But not shield, this is what you are not capitalising on. Guess what happens if you kick a shield tank up 6% more from 87,5% If you want a real tank showing the best of shield tanking, you need to get to where it shines, not hang out in 80'. the galente hit about 38/62 in heat/ kinetic. I recreated your example with moa II guardian since i don't have the battleship, (skipped the groupshield ofc) I flew into battle and took a look at my resist. I got 92% heat resist and 94% kinetic resist. 1 large booster at 192heal per sec now heal 2400 dps vs heat and 3200 vs kinetic. This was with 4/5 skills for the build in resist bonus, (16% of 20%) while shield cost more cap... you get it back thru efficiency when you get into the area where it shines.. in my example a single booster is now suddenly viable against your two large reppers. Add to that the group shield booster, its now extra efficient because of the high resist. Now the last point.. Your cap regenerates faster as it gets closer to 33% as we all know.. but many don't realise shield works in a similar way.. when you are lower in shield it auto regenerates for much more than when its at 80%+. At half shield you can easily auto regenerate 40+dps. Some ships might be better than others, i haven't tested, just observed my shield regeneration points in battle can hit 3+ pr second quite easily. Armour don't get this Edit: spellings
@@larsb4572 i agree with all of this. I was using ships not released to give a overview your average person trying to do t8s or 10s won't get that high in resistances as most will proratise clearing missions faster than just outright tanking. So I was explaining the basis for those. Also speed for speed tanking comes into play as well there are a ton of factors. I even stated in my video if done right shield tanking is the better one but in a lot of situations a armor tank is just fine. A cap stable armor tank on a Mauler is going to be better if you are running news missions and want to play and not pay attention and not have to worry about anything, than shield tanking it and burning your cap away in 7 min because you forgot to check and lose your ship. I was trying to explain armor tanking can be good enough and will work for lots of people where a shield tank would work better but isn't needed. If you tank 400 dps and the encounter only does 380 your afk farming can continue unabated. Dont always have to use optimal. Can use good enough and in a lot of ships with lesser skills you can cap stable much more easy with armor than shield. Its much more forgiving than a shield tank. But will never hit the same numbers.
Just a fyi.. i have two armour tanks, myrmidon and a prop, that both clears BHD, most time a single medium repper is all that's active running 24/7. Armour tanking is quite fine for most stuff.. ofc in extreme situations IE forgetting last wave spawns and you're at 45km distance..you might need the extremely best.. 90+% shield tank and a few prayers while you turn around asap. But i do wonder if armour tanking didnt need a lil boost. Maybe 20-30% more hitpoints repped pr repper.
@@TMOGamer its true we dont want to outtank a mission in extreme. Just a little extra for a rainy day. But this was, pardon my french, a "science video armour vs shields" ;) So... it should be reasonable be expected to explain where each ones shine and why. Maybe in a "part 2" ? :)
Good videos Sivat. Great to see someone using logic and calculating stats mathematically to show advantages and disadvantages rather than opinion backed up by an unclear battle vid. Keep em coming.
Thank you. I will do more like this from time to time.
basically, if you get a bonus for armor anything, go armor, if you get shield bonus for anything, go shields, if no bonuses, go shields.
AND to add, it also depends on what you are fighting. going against lasers? go armor.
For the most part I would agree with this. However if you run t10s with a longer engagement time or dislike juggling modules, in a lot of cases you can make a armor tank work good enough and not have to worry about cap.
Wouldn’t the cynabal be a better example? It can be armor tanked and shield tanked. :)
Yup. And the medium armor reps are the best armor reps. The CD on the large armor reps is out of whack compared to every other booster/repairer.
However, all Angel Cartel ships are missing 10% armor EM resistance compared to their Minmatar cousins.
Any ship can be armour tanked. In eve online the scorpion is usually armour tanked.
@@trophywolfe well yes... but in the sense of testing them equally, wouldnt you want a hybrid?
Although it's minute for these big ships you forgot to factor in the maximum natural shield recharge rate. (max shield/recharge time) * 2,5. And what I do myself to be cap stable is to downsize the shield booster.
If you down size the shield booster it makes it really hard to rep the amount you need to keep such larger shields up
Cap management is required for shield tanking, such as killing the prop mod when engaging. Also I would be running an extra NOS instead of the scram and even an extra web instead of the painter.
Oh I agree, I was just fitting them out equally to showcase the diffrence. Definaly have to make adjustments to what you are using and whats best for your ship.
For the Rokh, why doesn't use DCU, it's pretty helpful on my machariel.
I feel like Armor plates are a huge benefit to mitigating DPS so id love to see the math run out on dps mitigation with alternating 2 plates and 2 larges or something in similar terms.
Thats a great idea, the effectiveness of the extenders. I like it and is def worth looking into.
great video, really covered everything that every average content creator forgot to mention. I was wondering, what if you replaced the second shield booster on the rookh and replaced it with a third adaptive? It would be cap stable and rep more than the double repped abbadon. Can i get the numbers for that? Would be super cool :)
I will answer this question at the beginning of the next video.
Nice work Tavis.👍🏻
Thank you
Finally the explanation I was expecting - I must say I laughed when I watched both Benzie and Sovereign's videos preaching "Shield tank everything" - without going as deep into calculations as you did. And while this video does not prove them wrong, it does, at the same time. It all depends on the type of ship you're flying, and what you're gonna use the ship for. Shield are definitely not ALWAYS better, like they were saying - and, most importantly, even in the situations where they are, they are not better by much. To the point where you can actually fit a ship exclusively designed to be a shield tank, with an armor tank, and still be safer, for a longer time. So, to sum it up - it's exactly like you said - in the end it all depends on your play style - not even that much on the type of ship - and what you're gonna use the ship for. And that's a choice everyone has. Something both Benzie and Sovereign "forgot" to mention.
Sov caveats this in his video. There are also things that have to be juggled, such as killing the prop mod as you aren't speed tanking a BS.
Thank you for all the kind words, I really appreciate it! I don't think anyone should feel bad with how they chose to enjoy the game, and just because something is not the best does not mean it is not effective.
agree with these guys... earned a sub and I'll tell a few friends about your channel. :)
@@DCSuperShine Thank you! and I appreciate that.
Shield tanking is defiantly better in terms of damage mitigation, true you might not be cap stable but what good is stability in a fight that can break your tank and kill your ship. I figure 4 minutes stability is good enough to either run away, kill the opponent, or your dead anyway.
I agree, your average fight is short meaning shield tanking is optimal for that.
I love people who shield tank amd all we have to do is run neuts ina. Fleet amd y'all just screwed even with yall nos. Please people keep going shield tank. Please please please. Our neut fleet loves you on our kill mils
@@A1Sums Neuts work equally well on Armour tanks. Turns any ship into a brick, Armageddons are great for that, or If you have the isk a Ashimmu or Bhaalgorn.
@@beng7845 idk we always have a harder time against armor tanks with neuts then vs shield that lose cap in under 30 secs compared to armor that sometimes has taken several mins
If not most times
Great video! Thanks.
You accidentally swapped numbers for armor and shield when calculating shield tank. It's 327 raw hp for armor, and 386 raw hp for shield. You calculated with 327 for both getting 1635 dps tank for armor and 1817 dps tank for shield (shield should use 386/.18 for a 2144 dps tank). For the Rokh you realized the mistake and used 386 raw hp getting 2969 dps tank.
Thank you. Sorry about that. Was doing a lot of math and note checking at the same time. I appreciate the correction, thank you.
@@TMOGamer don't worry about it. It can happen to anyone. I'm glad that someone went through all the trouble and actually shared all that information.
Keep it up!
Well put, not a point of view I’ve heard on ty before but one I would agree with
Thank you. I still think with average engagements shield tanking is better overall, but armor tanking is not bad and works good enough for a very long time or forever. If you wana play mostly afk and want a threshold for mistakes it works way better. If you want optimal peak performance but have to pay close attention shield tanking works best, but slight errors can cost you.
What do you recommend for prophecy doing T10 story
As a prophecy user, in my opinion, there is no point doing T10 stories when you look at the isk/hr ratio. Best to keep to T8s. Group Reps and long-range drones FTW at 92km.
Assuming your weapons rigs have drone range augmentors and you stay at long range you dont need to tank much - group armour reps and drone damage mods in the lows you can just sit at range and blap everything
@@beng7845 Yup. Agreed. I ran T8s in a few hours with my prohp no issue. Keep the range and let your babies do all the work.
I recommend you watch Eternal Echoes. He has a series where he does all t10s in a prophecy. Really good stuff if thats your goal.
@@phyoishere I went through pretty much all the storyline missions in my proph and I can tell you that the winner for most ISK/hour is a T10 (Bad Hare Day, although looking at how the price for it is rising I guess a lot of people figured that out already), followed pretty closely by a couple of T8s. But the place where the T10 wins for me is in being AFK-able for longer periods (while you kill the battleships at the end, after you've taken out the elites) and spending more time in actual battle instead of travelling.
Can u give the formula pls??
X=Y/(1-P%) where P%= the resistance ie 80%. Y= shield or armor repping per second ie 365.
@@TMOGamer thank y man..
At like 2 min in where you’re showing that fitting window and stats. What are you using? That’s not the in game fitting window, is it an app or website?
I love people who shield tank amd all we have to do is run neuts ina. Fleet amd y'all just screwed even with yall nos. Please people keep going shield tank. Please please please. Our neut fleet loves you on our kill mils
Thank you for the video.
I found my self disagreeing with like half of what you did or said or how it was presented. Sorry.. Like your final conclusion at 29:30 was just plain nonsense. The shield tank was capstable, took less damage AND healed for more.. but you conclude armour was basically better in cap.. listen.. you removed 1 shield booster.. good. Now add the third shield hardener instead and use average resist not lowest. If one is 80% and the other 100% it would be very bad math to go with 80%. And in battle the increase from the yellow shield will boost shield Ehp healing alot as each singular point in resist has bigger and bigger effect, especially after passing 85%.
Thank you, and nothing to be sorry for. Yes average would be better but even thats not perfect, it would be best if we knew the exact numbers of each type. As far as removing one mod its stable at far less reping. Overall I was trying to say there are a lot of ships out there that are cap stable armor tanking but not when shield tanking. So if you are already mitigating enough damage with a cap stable armor tank theres no need to use a shield tank. Its good enough. However shield tanking will stop more damage but in a lot of cases for no where near as long.
@@TMOGamer the amazing thing about shield tanking is the high numbers, but your example didn't really hit them so you never saw the benefit.
The higher the resist, the more value each healed hit points has, this is very important and not mentioned, its non linear, which is why you need to get into the area where it really takes off. And i feel like you maybe didn't fully realise this.
Going from 0 to 50% resist double your ehp.
Going from 50 to 75% doubles it again
From 75 to 87,5% doubles it again.
This is where armour stops, mid 80 for a good armour ship. But not shield, this is what you are not capitalising on. Guess what happens if you kick a shield tank up 6% more from 87,5%
If you want a real tank showing the best of shield tanking, you need to get to where it shines, not hang out in 80'.
the galente hit about 38/62 in heat/ kinetic. I recreated your example with moa II guardian since i don't have the battleship, (skipped the groupshield ofc)
I flew into battle and took a look at my resist.
I got 92% heat resist and 94% kinetic resist.
1 large booster at 192heal per sec now heal 2400 dps vs heat and 3200 vs kinetic. This was with 4/5 skills for the build in resist bonus, (16% of 20%)
while shield cost more cap... you get it back thru efficiency when you get into the area where it shines.. in my example a single booster is now suddenly viable against your two large reppers.
Add to that the group shield booster, its now extra efficient because of the high resist.
Now the last point..
Your cap regenerates faster as it gets closer to 33% as we all know.. but many don't realise shield works in a similar way.. when you are lower in shield it auto regenerates for much more than when its at 80%+.
At half shield you can easily auto regenerate 40+dps. Some ships might be better than others, i haven't tested, just observed my shield regeneration points in battle can hit 3+ pr second quite easily. Armour don't get this
Edit: spellings
@@larsb4572 i agree with all of this. I was using ships not released to give a overview your average person trying to do t8s or 10s won't get that high in resistances as most will proratise clearing missions faster than just outright tanking. So I was explaining the basis for those. Also speed for speed tanking comes into play as well there are a ton of factors. I even stated in my video if done right shield tanking is the better one but in a lot of situations a armor tank is just fine. A cap stable armor tank on a Mauler is going to be better if you are running news missions and want to play and not pay attention and not have to worry about anything, than shield tanking it and burning your cap away in 7 min because you forgot to check and lose your ship. I was trying to explain armor tanking can be good enough and will work for lots of people where a shield tank would work better but isn't needed. If you tank 400 dps and the encounter only does 380 your afk farming can continue unabated. Dont always have to use optimal. Can use good enough and in a lot of ships with lesser skills you can cap stable much more easy with armor than shield. Its much more forgiving than a shield tank. But will never hit the same numbers.
Just a fyi.. i have two armour tanks, myrmidon and a prop, that both clears BHD, most time a single medium repper is all that's active running 24/7. Armour tanking is quite fine for most stuff.. ofc in extreme situations IE forgetting last wave spawns and you're at 45km distance..you might need the extremely best.. 90+% shield tank and a few prayers while you turn around asap.
But i do wonder if armour tanking didnt need a lil boost. Maybe 20-30% more hitpoints repped pr repper.
@@TMOGamer its true we dont want to outtank a mission in extreme. Just a little extra for a rainy day.
But this was, pardon my french, a "science video armour vs shields" ;)
So... it should be reasonable be expected to explain where each ones shine and why. Maybe in a "part 2" ? :)