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hey, really surprised you didn't at least credit Accursed Farms for starting the Stop Killing Games movement. It's something that could have far reaching consequence - even to the Right to Repair movement stuff out there - and in an era of ever-decreasing consumer protections, getting the conversation started so that government can catch up to technology is incredibly important.
As @SuperGamerFan77 pointed out Thor doesnt understand the difference between an EU petition or a proposed law. Through his very US eyes he interpreted it very literally and missed the forest for the trees. If the petition passes It'll be considered by the EU parliament and It'll go through several revisions and industry experts can weigh in on it.
it ultimately comes down to "how do we make corporations do the right thing when it won't make shareholders money" and if we can figure that out, we might be able to prevent the earth from becoming a smoldering ash heap by 2034. oh yeah and game preservation too i guess
I support Ross Scott/Accursed Farms for all the hard work he is doing to try to stop the ending of games that need online connection to function, and that we've paid money for. He has a great channel, and I really hope his EU petition makes an impact in changing these anti consumer practices. Thanks for bringing more attention to the subject.
@@lv100Alice the initiative doesn't affect any games already released. It would only affect future games. We don't need any more live service games squeezing money out of the players.
@@lv100Alice The SKG initiative mainly focuses on games that are offered as one-time purchases (aka 'goods', and yes, in certain countries like EU and Australia even digital games can be considered goods), and after some undisclosed period of time become obsolete because devs didn't implement other ways to make it playable (i.e. dedicated servers or P2P). "This practice deprives European citizens of their property by making it so that they lose access to their product an indeterminate/arbitrary amount of time after the point of sale. We wish to see this remedied" - from the initiative. And while Ross Scott, the leader of SKG movement, says it would be nice to have MMOs preserved, he acknowledges that this is probably not gonna happen, at least for some of them. Because certain games like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 are accessible after paying for subscriptions. You don't pay your monthly fee, you don't get to play. Fair 'n' square. Textbook definition of a 'service'.
Just to be clear. The "Stop Killing Games" petition is just an outline and HAS to be JUST an outline. Accursed Farms makes it extremely clear why that is the case in the FAQ. also PirateSoftware wasn't a traditional "dev" at Amazon and Blizzard. He worked security and QA, he didn't "develop" anything.
A QA job that he got because his father who worked in Blizzard's like cinema/art team got him that job. So he's a nepo baby that parades around as an "ex Blizzard dev" who has never gotten into game dev at Blizzard talking about game development and calls himself a representative of game devs in general. It's actually impressive.
As an actual MMO game dev with two decades experience, I believe PirateSoftware's opinion is as relevant as of any other gamer. As in, 1 in a billion. I mean, I don't even think mine is that much more relevant than of the average player, why should it be? Maybe I can give more informed opinions when it comes to the implementation and office politics, but that's it.
Same applies to Idyl, and every other person with a platform. No disrespect for any youtubers, I watch this channel because I like it, but don't assume someone knows what they're talking about just because they are famous.
@@madmantheepic7278Ah yes, he was wrong about a take so therefore it discredits everything and he is poser game dev. I have not always agreed with him, but people are multifaceted dude. Hating someone because you disagree with him is extreme. And guess what? Most jobs in the creative arts are done through networking and connections. Doesn't discredit your work on those projects.
As likable as Thor/Pirate Software is, he gives off that insufferable coworker who if you asked “can i go to the bathroom?” He’d respond with “idk, CAN YOU?” Lol. He’s very arrogant and most of his “career advice” would get the average person canned ASAP. He’s very condescending, arrogant, and definitely mentions that blizzardAzon hacker background way too much. Thanks for saying what some in the community needed to hear.
He used to run a group on Second Life, his name was "Maldavius Figtree" and man, the drama and behavior he had back then. And I said that once and someone said "its not him": he runs the "PirateSoftware" group on SL too. He is arrogant, and he has a really nasty attitude behind the scenes unfortunately.
And to quote an FAQ about PirateSoftware: "...they are currently a creative director of Offbrand - a company whose only product is a live service game. His employment is dependent on the very idea live services who can be killed at any point are and should continue to be legal. This and his previous employment at Blizzard constitute a conflict of interest when discussing this topic. "
At first I was a little afraid you'd be taking Thor's side, but I'm glad you ended up disagreeing with him. Also huge props for getting the word out there about the petition, we're almost half way and we're not even near the 1 year mark, we need every signature we can get.
Him saying that private servers invite the destruction of the game is a flawed argument to begin with. Like you said it will happen anyway and there are far more common reasons to bring down an active game, mostly by other companies.
All what pirate software said is that criminals exist . With his same idea in mind we should not have free water fountains because someone could bottle it and sell it .
Shoutout to all the Runescape preservation servers throughout the eras. OpenRSC (as shown in the video), but also 2004scape, 2009scape and Darkan (2012) - All run by great people who take 0 donations and just want to let people login to those times again
2009scape is great, definitely the most aesthetic time period for RuneScape I run a copy locally and it's hella fun playing RuneScape as essentially a single player RPG
I feel like the 'you can't experience it like you did originally' is just missing the point of preservation. It is like Elvis being a huge phenomena at the time but if you listen to his stuff compared to modern music and compare him to modern celebrities it is like... Nothing special? I'll never go to an Elvis concert when his stuff was risqué and new. Does that mean the music and history isn't worth preserving? While the laws of it needs to be carefully thought out to prevent shenanigans. I think preserving history and people's access to these video games is way more important than a company's wallet, especially when it comes to abandon products.
I see your point here, and I agree that preserving culture (and, more precisely, the influences of contemporary culture) is important, even if it does not have the same luster to the modern observer. An MMO, unfortunately, is not a piece of traditional art. It's a delicately designed system of mechanics which functions optimally (or even, minimally) when engaged by thousands of concurrent players. Economies, party wait times, clan communities, mentorship all fall apart when the player base shrinks too small. Consider then that the experience of a "preserved" MMO may end up feeling more akin to the plasticky Elvis impersonators on Vegas strip than some sort of historical archival of what the quintessential MMO experience we all loved was actually like. The experience of a burgeoning MMO, like the Elvis concert we'll never be able to attend, will only ever be available to the players who were there.
@@saint.venant I'd compare it to me putting on an MP3 of an elvis song vs the shows back then. (I was about to type CD but my brain went 'shit those are too old'.) Ultimately I'd still rather have access then none at all. It not being a traditional piece of art means little to me. Since this kind of goes beyond MMOs into live service games too (and DRM as was lightly mentioned in the video). The day WoW get shut down I'd consider it better than someone can boot up a private server and fuck around in an empty world (or with a small group of friends) rather than none at all. The day genshin impact stops getting supported I'd rather the people who play it have the choice to pop on some version of it. Still we've also seen with private server communities that they can get healthy populations too! Even if smaller they're warm and welcoming and that is also worth preserving the ability to have. So wonderful experiences can still come from them regardless.
Counter argument to the last point Thor made: yes they are a product of the time they were released in. So is any piece of art. Thats why when you go to an art gallery there's information boards telling you the context and the history. You wouldn't choose not to preserve historical artifacts because they were "a product of their time" would you? No it's not going to be the same as playing the game at it's peak but that's not even the point of preserving it.
Something you forget to mention is that, "the crew" was the game which started all of this. Even if you could run a private the crew server, you would still be committing a crime, because you're using unlicensed car brands in your game. P.s. Sorry for the bad English.
I would like to mention that many minecraft private servers have terrible monetization practices. but that doesn't prevent some really good servers to exist. yes its lame that there are predatory servers out there, but generally the successful servers do the right thing.. and people move back and fourth between servers all the time. they have their own playerbases that critique the bad owners. there are groups that find pay-to-win servers and they bot/hack to try and serve justice. I would take all that in favor of my game being inaccessible forever. especially when it would take little effort from the devs of the original.
City of Heroes Homecoming has shown me the light, really cannot sing its praise enough, and I never loaded up City of Heroes before the private server.
Ahh yes, PirateSoftware, the fraud nepobaby who entirely misunderstood the SKG petition, and wouldn't have a conversation with the creator and blocked him instead of having a discussion about it. lmao
IMO if any company no longer supports X, then it goes to public domain. That allows individuals to pursue things that are frankly not cost effective for corporations. The thing is the way copyrights work throws a huge spanner into this which is why in some cases it is illegal. So really it is the copyright laws that need to be addressed. Which is a huge can of worms that corporations aren't willing to play fair with which is why hardly anything ever goes to public domain anymore.
It's not as simple as "it goes to public domain." The _idea_ (and many other commenters have pointed out that it's just an idea, purposefully lacking detail) is this: if any company no longer supports X (live service game), then they must publish the necessary tools so that an enthuastic community can suppport that game. Not without cost, but without having to develop tools themselves from the outside looking in. And that's a very important difference.
So far in my MMO journey, I haven't found a single dead MMO that can't be played on a private server...The only issue is as games get more fancy, I can see this becoming a harder thing to pull off... 😥
The biggest correction I have on the reply to Pirate Software: Subscription based games are not included in Ross's movement since you have an idea as a consumer how long your purchase (usually per month) will last. It also does not require them to release the server executable. "Reasonably playable state" includes basically dumping all the assets to the internet and telling people "good luck downloading 400TB of data." [Edit] this also includes removing multiplayer from some games. Like dumping CoD multiplayer and leaving you with campaign and single player/split screen only. Minor corrections but useful clarifications nonetheless.
I think something u forgot to mention regarding TF2 is that valve, actually did fix the botting situation in the game. granted it took them 4 years. But they have banned the bots, and actually implemented reporting features on steam specifically for tf2. They also went after github repositories that hosted the code for the bots.
I can't believe the disrespect about not discussing City of Heroes in a video about private servers taking over after official servers go offline... You could have made an entire video about the topic talking ONLY about City of Heroes...
Thank you for articulating my own thoughts! Other MMO content creators also seem to skip over coh, and I don't get it. I feel like the story of its official approval was pretty widely shared.
Hey, cool of you to give some exposure to Stop Killing Games, and thanks for your thoughts on the matter! The initative isn't centered around MMOs, but it definitely has the potential to affect them.
I should've mentioned that NCSoft, the publishers behind City of Heroes actually LICENSED one of the biggest private servers, making it officially legal to run. a very based move from a usually non based company
In Sony's defense with SWG, they probably have weird licensing stuff to deal with on that one. Might be a little more difficult than just saying "it's ok to make private server"
I miss old school games with subscriptions, no cash shops and no time gating. My favourites were rising force online and guild wars 1, and giving people an official/endorsed way to and preserve old games is important imo
I could see paid private servers being the future of MMO's. It solves two big issues: The constant desire for 'fresh' servers, and the desire to not be on a crowded server where you're constantly competing. Another possible future would be MMO's all being single player by design but just allowing for seamless conntection to a multiplayer version
There were no issues to begin with. And paid servers means the company is supporting the game still which this isn’t what this is all about. This is for when supports end.
Nothing exists in this world that can't have holes poked through it. The bottom line for me is licensed/legal private servers should be a right for consumers with few limitations. What should be the actual focus of conversation is the money private servers can make, THAT is a reasonable conversation. I don't think private servers should be limited to just dead games because if a game goes the way of Runescape with the EOC change, where a game is so drastically changed it is effectively dead, I think it should be legal for private servers to exist. But obviously private servers shouldn't be profiting off of someone else's IP. There should either be licensing fees or profit splitting, or something to that effect. Countless times communities prove that they are willing to keep or create projects when there is no or little money involved.
I'd just like to add, that releasing server files for a dead game would be great. The ones which got shut down because they were not profitable enough to run them with a big team. I'd love to play GhostX ultimate just once more. I'd love to be king of the hill just once more in S4League. But until the original company runs the game, I think they should be able to profit from it and decide what to do with the server files.
Everquest and Project1999 has got to be one of the most interesting official company and private server situation out there for a game that is still active and the publisher still releases their own classic servers.
Team Fortress 2 actually STARTED as Private Servers. It's from that era of FPS where the multiplayer was all servers hosted and managed by individuals or clans. And actually, I honestly preferred it. Yes, the pool of players was smaller and so skill disparity could be much larger. But you got to know the people on the servers you played on, you built rapport, and the game felt more like playing with friends. Also, people didn't act like jerks on servers where that wasn't allowed because a MOD was likely to be on and would ban them from the server. For games that have a single player or non-MMO multiplayer (Diablo 3 is a good example, but I also think of Starcraft 2) it is a no-brainer that the Publishers/devs should be compelled to make the games playable after the official servers shut down. Overwatch 1 should still be playable in local multiplayer or private servers. WC3 not Reforged should still be playable without having to try to find a CD. I like Pirate Software. But I think he is objectively wrong on this subject.
Tf2 private servers were the best I knew like 90% of people on there and we'de shoot the shit while playing for hours on end it was truely a sense of community there was even a guy who'd always ALWAYS talk like a announcer, and when he'd join everyone would mimic him and we'de continue about our conversations all in our announcer voices like it was normal till he disconnected.
Thor's arguement against releasing server binaries being that it will encourage corporate sabotage is creative at least. I think his experience with working in security for these games has greatly inflated his view of how likely and damaging such a movement could be.
WoW Classic was very different from Vanilla because of changes in the player base. To the point that I liked it a lot less. But I still enjoyed revisiting old WoW even through the flawed lens that is Vanilla. We also learnt a lot about MMOs and confirmed a bunch of things we thought we knew about MMOs (no, turns out it wasn't all just rose tinted goggles). There's value in preserving what we can, even if it's not perfect.
I think this is a fantastic idea. LOTRO is super old, and I only just now discovered it and am having more fun with it than I've had playing games in months. I'd never be able to experience it if it had died, and it was kept going by a dedicated fan base who would do whatever they could to preserve it.
Something I've thought about on this topic is how the end of a game would be defined. If a game completely overhauls every system in place and the engine so that it's entirely unrecognizable from what it originally was, would the company then be forced to release the IP of the old version of their game? To me, the answer to this question has large implications on how things would play out with future live service games.
Valve actually has gotten the bots under control. They did it a bit before the summer update and it's been pretty decent since then. Massive ban waves with cheaters and bot hosters crying on social media. It was glorious. We just hope it lasts.
About TF2 private servers: I played the original Team Fortress mod for Quake a lot back in the day, and so I've been around. Private servers used to be the standard. We always had good control over our communities because of it. They got rid of because it allowed companies to control their product more. Younger people just don't know how much was lost when we went to official servers. Sure, the playerpool is larger, but it's also just random people. With private servers you get to know people.
If I was game dev that would have never happen, I would create the perfect game wiht no flaws because I am gamer and I know what gamers want unlike those game developers
I think a core issue not mentioned here is similar to Right-to-repair, this petition is just kind of trying to address consumer protection. When you buy something, you should own the thing you bought. If you buy a phone, you should be able to fix that phone if the screen breaks, not have to pay almost as much to repair the phone "from the manufacturer" as it would cost to buy a new phone, if you buy a game, you should be able to play the game until YOU no longer want to play, not until the company decides to no longer support it. In our current corporate environment, where even car companies are trying to make features like heated seats an "as-a-service" feature where you would have to pay a monthly fee to access it, it is time for the consumer to try to take some ground against a system where corporations continue getting more and more freedom to do whatever the hell they want, while consumers just baisically have to lay down and take it.
Yea. We should have the right to repair older games because no matter how good this initiative, it ain’t bringing back ones that have already gone. Laws just don’t apply to older things like that, and even if they did, half the companies ain’t even around to fix their old games anymore. So having this right to repair would be great
i now wander if wildstar has a private server i miss some old games that are now gone i wish the law passes and we can keep playing old games legally and maybe companies will give their source openly when they give up support of the game
Great video overall. I just think Idyl missed one of the best examples he could give for his argument: the case with Project 1999 Everquest and Daybreak.
The whole Project Zanarak(?) thing isn't really private... Jagex would technically still control the server/IP, they're just giving players access to all of the Dev options. I think there needs to be better lingo to use for these types of things.
I liked the video, recently (for like a good month or two) the tf2 bot problem has actually been extremely, gone. Bots are actually so hard to run into in the main servers.
World of Warcraft will never die. Even if Blizzard is no more, people will keep it running. Even if there are no players to play with, there are already solo WoW servers with bot companions.
As someone who's main online multiplayer game is Rocket League - I would lose almost nothing from the experience playing on privately hosted servers. On a less mean note, preservation isn't just about preserving things that are "worth playing" or to ensure they remain popular - it's just a good practice for any medium that takes itself seriously. It's very hard to learn from something you can't directly reference.
Yea. A lot of people are saying only the good games should be saved when that’s a bad way of thinking about it. They all should be saved no matter what you think of it.
while the crew 2 and the crew motorfest arent traditional mmos ubisoft announced that they give those games an offline mode in the future but i doubt giving an offline mode would work on most things
TF2 community servers have always been the backbone of the game, some of my favorite gaming memories are just me and like 18 other homies chillin on 2fort shootin the shit and never capping the intel for hours on end.
Valve has always had 1) offline modes for most games, 2) community server support. far from a perfect company, but a good example of what other companies could do to support their games
@@IdylOnTV I agree, also would love to see you try and take a crack at savage/ultimate raiding in FF14 and report back on it, as its mostly seen as the casual/story driven mmo.
stop because i'm literally writing my thesis about this topic. i've been a fan of yours for years but i never thought about how i could actually end up citing you as a source!
While I do like Thor, I'm not a shill for him either. But I think a valid concern is not what the stop killing games movement is about, but rather the fear that politicians will fuck it up with some of the poor framing that it has on certain subjects.
Honestly i feel that Toon-Town handled the shut down in one of the best ways iv seen, Releasing a version true to the original (just removing anything that Disney would shut them down over) and applying patches and some small updates to add features that would have came out or based on the games original ideas. Keeping the game in a playable state. They even had some successful spin off games as well that rebalanced some things and added new areas.
Hey Idly, thanks for telling my friends I'm not as stupid as I seem. It's things like that that would have me democratically vote for you if there had been a poll for MMO prez.
To be clear regarding the TF2 example - running private servers isn't something the community started doing in response to the bot crisis. Valve have distributed game server executables for almost all of their online multiplayer games from the get-go. Official (Valve run) TF2 servers weren't even a thing for the first few years of the game's life - all players joined games from a browser of privately run servers. Younger gamers might not realise that this was pretty much how every multiplayer game (besides MMOs and other "live service-y" titles) did it up until the mid 2000s, and it was so much better IMO
Yes when they aren't profitable, BUT people should be able to launch their own private servers and maintain the game after. ideally the comapny gives access to the server's source code, or at least parts that are capable of being released publically. If not, so long as it is allowed to be ran (bonus if it has the companies's blessing) is all that matters. Heck, if for some reason it is brought back at a later time I'm even okay if a private server has to shut down for the sake of an official server being brought on. So long as there is some possibility for people to be able to play the game is the important thing.
On the point of the OSRS community servers, I don't remember if EA has done them for Battlefield 2042; but they were a popular thing in the old Battlefield games in the 2010s (3, 4, and hardline for sure I remember seeing a lot of).
I actually completely agree with Thor, as a developer it's just not feasible. It's a mediocre at best idea that wouldn't work in today's game development world
Thanks boo bear. Awesome video! I think you have a really interesting perspective. Especially considering how many games are being released that are online only.
Hi tf2 player here! Youre a bit behind on the tf2 situation. The bots are gone, bot hosters have recieved a permanent gameban, and cheaters are getting banned if they are reported. tf2 is playable again!!
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Club Penguin Private Servers 😤
tldr: bad and dead liveservice games can go, good ones should stay and improve
Actually, City of Heroes homecoming private servers were officially licensed by its parent company in 2023 I think. So you can legally play this game.
I was hoping he mentioned this as well! But particularly with his thumbnail.
I was supporting homecoming before 2023, and love it even more now.
I'm actually playing CoH:Homecoming as I watch this video.
Same thing for the Warhammer: Return to Reckoning private server. It was officially endorsed by the old Relic Studios devs.
hey, really surprised you didn't at least credit Accursed Farms for starting the Stop Killing Games movement. It's something that could have far reaching consequence - even to the Right to Repair movement stuff out there - and in an era of ever-decreasing consumer protections, getting the conversation started so that government can catch up to technology is incredibly important.
We all know what it is.
"If you're watching this video, you're probably pretty stupid." What gave it away, was it the anime avatar?
…yes
Always is.
Me smart.
yes
As @SuperGamerFan77 pointed out Thor doesnt understand the difference between an EU petition or a proposed law. Through his very US eyes he interpreted it very literally and missed the forest for the trees. If the petition passes It'll be considered by the EU parliament and It'll go through several revisions and industry experts can weigh in on it.
it ultimately comes down to "how do we make corporations do the right thing when it won't make shareholders money" and if we can figure that out, we might be able to prevent the earth from becoming a smoldering ash heap by 2034. oh yeah and game preservation too i guess
But it does make shareholders money. By renting out the IP/servers the company can profit from a dead project.
We already know the solution. It's called making new laws/regulations to force them to the right thing.
we make the 'right thing' more profitable than the 'wrong thing'
@homiga1 yes but that doesn't solve the problem of the MMO dying if the company goes under.
I support Ross Scott/Accursed Farms for all the hard work he is doing to try to stop the ending of games that need online connection to function, and that we've paid money for. He has a great channel, and I really hope his EU petition makes an impact in changing these anti consumer practices. Thanks for bringing more attention to the subject.
I stand with Ross too
Funny part is Thor is like "this will kill live service games"
Well goddamn you didnt have to convince me any more
Literally a good thing. That’s like saying “this will cure cancer” well goddamn give me a sip of that
mmo's are live service games tho
@@lv100Alice the initiative doesn't affect any games already released. It would only affect future games. We don't need any more live service games squeezing money out of the players.
@@lv100Alice by choice, a choice the dev chose
@@lv100Alice The SKG initiative mainly focuses on games that are offered as one-time purchases (aka 'goods', and yes, in certain countries like EU and Australia even digital games can be considered goods), and after some undisclosed period of time become obsolete because devs didn't implement other ways to make it playable (i.e. dedicated servers or P2P).
"This practice deprives European citizens of their property by making it so that they lose access to their product an indeterminate/arbitrary amount of time after the point of sale. We wish to see this remedied" - from the initiative.
And while Ross Scott, the leader of SKG movement, says it would be nice to have MMOs preserved, he acknowledges that this is probably not gonna happen, at least for some of them. Because certain games like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 are accessible after paying for subscriptions. You don't pay your monthly fee, you don't get to play. Fair 'n' square. Textbook definition of a 'service'.
Just to be clear. The "Stop Killing Games" petition is just an outline and HAS to be JUST an outline. Accursed Farms makes it extremely clear why that is the case in the FAQ.
also PirateSoftware wasn't a traditional "dev" at Amazon and Blizzard. He worked security and QA, he didn't "develop" anything.
A QA job that he got because his father who worked in Blizzard's like cinema/art team got him that job. So he's a nepo baby that parades around as an "ex Blizzard dev" who has never gotten into game dev at Blizzard talking about game development and calls himself a representative of game devs in general. It's actually impressive.
Yeah! We hate that guy because of reasons! He took our job!
As an actual MMO game dev with two decades experience, I believe PirateSoftware's opinion is as relevant as of any other gamer. As in, 1 in a billion. I mean, I don't even think mine is that much more relevant than of the average player, why should it be? Maybe I can give more informed opinions when it comes to the implementation and office politics, but that's it.
Same applies to Idyl, and every other person with a platform. No disrespect for any youtubers, I watch this channel because I like it, but don't assume someone knows what they're talking about just because they are famous.
@@madmantheepic7278Ah yes, he was wrong about a take so therefore it discredits everything and he is poser game dev. I have not always agreed with him, but people are multifaceted dude. Hating someone because you disagree with him is extreme. And guess what? Most jobs in the creative arts are done through networking and connections. Doesn't discredit your work on those projects.
As likable as Thor/Pirate Software is, he gives off that insufferable coworker who if you asked “can i go to the bathroom?” He’d respond with “idk, CAN YOU?” Lol. He’s very arrogant and most of his “career advice” would get the average person canned ASAP. He’s very condescending, arrogant, and definitely mentions that blizzardAzon hacker background way too much. Thanks for saying what some in the community needed to hear.
He used to run a group on Second Life, his name was "Maldavius Figtree" and man, the drama and behavior he had back then. And I said that once and someone said "its not him": he runs the "PirateSoftware" group on SL too.
He is arrogant, and he has a really nasty attitude behind the scenes unfortunately.
And to quote an FAQ about PirateSoftware: "...they are currently a creative director of Offbrand - a company whose only product is a live service game. His employment is dependent on the very idea live services who can be killed at any point are and should continue to be legal. This and his previous employment at Blizzard constitute a conflict of interest when discussing this topic. "
@@emijade He is also a furry though he tries to hide that, his furry name was also Maldavius Figtree.
His mask has been slipping more and more lately and people are wising up to his arrogant egotistical behavior.
Oh thought you were talking about this bald fella who uploads the vid
At first I was a little afraid you'd be taking Thor's side, but I'm glad you ended up disagreeing with him. Also huge props for getting the word out there about the petition, we're almost half way and we're not even near the 1 year mark, we need every signature we can get.
I got my torch and pitchfork at the ready for this guy to say something stupid but he surprised me. But now I’ve wasted lignite my torch :(
Thor's take was so freaking weird that it tanked his momentum.
Guy was on a meteoric rise... now he's just another internet goblin. >__>
Him saying that private servers invite the destruction of the game is a flawed argument to begin with. Like you said it will happen anyway and there are far more common reasons to bring down an active game, mostly by other companies.
All what pirate software said is that criminals exist . With his same idea in mind we should not have free water fountains because someone could bottle it and sell it .
Why have laws at all if criminals exist? Pirate software is definitely big brain
BABE, WAKE UP, THE BEAUTIFUL BALD MAN DROPPED A NEW VIDEO
Shoutout to all the Runescape preservation servers throughout the eras. OpenRSC (as shown in the video), but also 2004scape, 2009scape and Darkan (2012) - All run by great people who take 0 donations and just want to let people login to those times again
2009scape is great, definitely the most aesthetic time period for RuneScape
I run a copy locally and it's hella fun playing RuneScape as essentially a single player RPG
Shout out to that one guy from 2016 who played a multiplier player game on the ps2 with me.
I feel like the 'you can't experience it like you did originally' is just missing the point of preservation. It is like Elvis being a huge phenomena at the time but if you listen to his stuff compared to modern music and compare him to modern celebrities it is like... Nothing special? I'll never go to an Elvis concert when his stuff was risqué and new. Does that mean the music and history isn't worth preserving?
While the laws of it needs to be carefully thought out to prevent shenanigans. I think preserving history and people's access to these video games is way more important than a company's wallet, especially when it comes to abandon products.
I see your point here, and I agree that preserving culture (and, more precisely, the influences of contemporary culture) is important, even if it does not have the same luster to the modern observer.
An MMO, unfortunately, is not a piece of traditional art. It's a delicately designed system of mechanics which functions optimally (or even, minimally) when engaged by thousands of concurrent players. Economies, party wait times, clan communities, mentorship all fall apart when the player base shrinks too small. Consider then that the experience of a "preserved" MMO may end up feeling more akin to the plasticky Elvis impersonators on Vegas strip than some sort of historical archival of what the quintessential MMO experience we all loved was actually like.
The experience of a burgeoning MMO, like the Elvis concert we'll never be able to attend, will only ever be available to the players who were there.
@@saint.venant I'd compare it to me putting on an MP3 of an elvis song vs the shows back then. (I was about to type CD but my brain went 'shit those are too old'.)
Ultimately I'd still rather have access then none at all. It not being a traditional piece of art means little to me. Since this kind of goes beyond MMOs into live service games too (and DRM as was lightly mentioned in the video). The day WoW get shut down I'd consider it better than someone can boot up a private server and fuck around in an empty world (or with a small group of friends) rather than none at all. The day genshin impact stops getting supported I'd rather the people who play it have the choice to pop on some version of it.
Still we've also seen with private server communities that they can get healthy populations too! Even if smaller they're warm and welcoming and that is also worth preserving the ability to have. So wonderful experiences can still come from them regardless.
Counter argument to the last point Thor made: yes they are a product of the time they were released in. So is any piece of art. Thats why when you go to an art gallery there's information boards telling you the context and the history. You wouldn't choose not to preserve historical artifacts because they were "a product of their time" would you? No it's not going to be the same as playing the game at it's peak but that's not even the point of preserving it.
For the conclusion, yeah Ross Scott summarizes the project as "ok but what's the alternative to private servers? no game at all?"
"Cause it means something today even if it doesn't mean the same thing that it did back then"
and I felt that.
NGL I missed the patreon song at the end.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.
Well we're closer than ever irl
Something you forget to mention is that, "the crew" was the game which started all of this. Even if you could run a private the crew server, you would still be committing a crime, because you're using unlicensed car brands in your game.
P.s. Sorry for the bad English.
Take a drink every time Thor says "I was a hacker at Blizzard".
Thor reminds me of my roommate who if you give him too much attention he starts to believe he is the most liked and infallible human to exist.
I would like to mention that many minecraft private servers have terrible monetization practices. but that doesn't prevent some really good servers to exist. yes its lame that there are predatory servers out there, but generally the successful servers do the right thing.. and people move back and fourth between servers all the time. they have their own playerbases that critique the bad owners. there are groups that find pay-to-win servers and they bot/hack to try and serve justice. I would take all that in favor of my game being inaccessible forever. especially when it would take little effort from the devs of the original.
City of Heroes Homecoming has shown me the light, really cannot sing its praise enough, and I never loaded up City of Heroes before the private server.
Ahh yes, PirateSoftware, the fraud nepobaby who entirely misunderstood the SKG petition, and wouldn't have a conversation with the creator and blocked him instead of having a discussion about it. lmao
sounds like an industry puppet fr
IMO if any company no longer supports X, then it goes to public domain. That allows individuals to pursue things that are frankly not cost effective for corporations.
The thing is the way copyrights work throws a huge spanner into this which is why in some cases it is illegal. So really it is the copyright laws that need to be addressed. Which is a huge can of worms that corporations aren't willing to play fair with which is why hardly anything ever goes to public domain anymore.
It's not as simple as "it goes to public domain." The _idea_ (and many other commenters have pointed out that it's just an idea, purposefully lacking detail) is this: if any company no longer supports X (live service game), then they must publish the necessary tools so that an enthuastic community can suppport that game. Not without cost, but without having to develop tools themselves from the outside looking in.
And that's a very important difference.
We love you Discount Josh Strife Hayes
was looking for this comment lol
You know any video that starts with " The Matrix online" will be an absolute banger.
So far in my MMO journey, I haven't found a single dead MMO that can't be played on a private server...The only issue is as games get more fancy, I can see this becoming a harder thing to pull off... 😥
yeah the OGs are way easier to emulate, and even still come with a few layers of jank
the hoodie tucked into the green pants should be a crime
hawk 1: any ideas for a viral joke?
hawk 2: uhhh
😂
I swear I am not frightened by the floating torso person
It will not haunt me to the end of my days bro i promise
The biggest correction I have on the reply to Pirate Software:
Subscription based games are not included in Ross's movement since you have an idea as a consumer how long your purchase (usually per month) will last.
It also does not require them to release the server executable. "Reasonably playable state" includes basically dumping all the assets to the internet and telling people "good luck downloading 400TB of data."
[Edit] this also includes removing multiplayer from some games. Like dumping CoD multiplayer and leaving you with campaign and single player/split screen only.
Minor corrections but useful clarifications nonetheless.
I think something u forgot to mention regarding TF2 is that valve, actually did fix the botting situation in the game. granted it took them 4 years. But they have banned the bots, and actually implemented reporting features on steam specifically for tf2. They also went after github repositories that hosted the code for the bots.
I can't believe the disrespect about not discussing City of Heroes in a video about private servers taking over after official servers go offline... You could have made an entire video about the topic talking ONLY about City of Heroes...
Thank you for articulating my own thoughts! Other MMO content creators also seem to skip over coh, and I don't get it. I feel like the story of its official approval was pretty widely shared.
No one cares about that literal garbage
Hey, cool of you to give some exposure to Stop Killing Games, and thanks for your thoughts on the matter! The initative isn't centered around MMOs, but it definitely has the potential to affect them.
Shout out to Daybreak games for letting Everquest Project 1999 and Project Quarm exist.
Private servers are awesome.
I should've mentioned that NCSoft, the publishers behind City of Heroes actually LICENSED one of the biggest private servers, making it officially legal to run. a very based move from a usually non based company
Wildstar mention spotted.
Bro is just gonna keep losing more and more of his torso to the void until we only see his bald forehead, I can't fucking wait
Wearing green-screen pants to look like your legs are behind a desk is peak video design
In Sony's defense with SWG, they probably have weird licensing stuff to deal with on that one. Might be a little more difficult than just saying "it's ok to make private server"
Breaking out paint when referring to Pirate Software is some good shit.
I miss old school games with subscriptions, no cash shops and no time gating. My favourites were rising force online and guild wars 1, and giving people an official/endorsed way to and preserve old games is important imo
I could see paid private servers being the future of MMO's. It solves two big issues: The constant desire for 'fresh' servers, and the desire to not be on a crowded server where you're constantly competing. Another possible future would be MMO's all being single player by design but just allowing for seamless conntection to a multiplayer version
There were no issues to begin with. And paid servers means the company is supporting the game still which this isn’t what this is all about. This is for when supports end.
Nothing exists in this world that can't have holes poked through it. The bottom line for me is licensed/legal private servers should be a right for consumers with few limitations. What should be the actual focus of conversation is the money private servers can make, THAT is a reasonable conversation.
I don't think private servers should be limited to just dead games because if a game goes the way of Runescape with the EOC change, where a game is so drastically changed it is effectively dead, I think it should be legal for private servers to exist. But obviously private servers shouldn't be profiting off of someone else's IP. There should either be licensing fees or profit splitting, or something to that effect. Countless times communities prove that they are willing to keep or create projects when there is no or little money involved.
I'm actually pissed that you changed the outro song, it was an absolute banger.
This video took a bit to get made, TF2 bots were dealt with lol
right? I was wondering the same thing...
Bro when you put your head over Mod Sarnie's body from the summer summit, I started cracking up
I'd just like to add, that releasing server files for a dead game would be great. The ones which got shut down because they were not profitable enough to run them with a big team.
I'd love to play GhostX ultimate just once more.
I'd love to be king of the hill just once more in S4League.
But until the original company runs the game, I think they should be able to profit from it and decide what to do with the server files.
Everquest and Project1999 has got to be one of the most interesting official company and private server situation out there for a game that is still active and the publisher still releases their own classic servers.
Team Fortress 2 actually STARTED as Private Servers. It's from that era of FPS where the multiplayer was all servers hosted and managed by individuals or clans.
And actually, I honestly preferred it. Yes, the pool of players was smaller and so skill disparity could be much larger. But you got to know the people on the servers you played on, you built rapport, and the game felt more like playing with friends. Also, people didn't act like jerks on servers where that wasn't allowed because a MOD was likely to be on and would ban them from the server.
For games that have a single player or non-MMO multiplayer (Diablo 3 is a good example, but I also think of Starcraft 2) it is a no-brainer that the Publishers/devs should be compelled to make the games playable after the official servers shut down. Overwatch 1 should still be playable in local multiplayer or private servers. WC3 not Reforged should still be playable without having to try to find a CD.
I like Pirate Software. But I think he is objectively wrong on this subject.
Tf2 private servers were the best I knew like 90% of people on there and we'de shoot the shit while playing for hours on end it was truely a sense of community there was even a guy who'd always ALWAYS talk like a announcer, and when he'd join everyone would mimic him and we'de continue about our conversations all in our announcer voices like it was normal till he disconnected.
Thor's arguement against releasing server binaries being that it will encourage corporate sabotage is creative at least. I think his experience with working in security for these games has greatly inflated his view of how likely and damaging such a movement could be.
really great video. I like your idea of private servers getting support after a publisher shuts down a game!
WoW Classic was very different from Vanilla because of changes in the player base. To the point that I liked it a lot less. But I still enjoyed revisiting old WoW even through the flawed lens that is Vanilla. We also learnt a lot about MMOs and confirmed a bunch of things we thought we knew about MMOs (no, turns out it wasn't all just rose tinted goggles). There's value in preserving what we can, even if it's not perfect.
The MS paint scrawling like Pirate Software made me lol
I think this is a fantastic idea. LOTRO is super old, and I only just now discovered it and am having more fun with it than I've had playing games in months. I'd never be able to experience it if it had died, and it was kept going by a dedicated fan base who would do whatever they could to preserve it.
This idea is really fresh and really scary: *glares at Minecraft Realms*
Something I've thought about on this topic is how the end of a game would be defined. If a game completely overhauls every system in place and the engine so that it's entirely unrecognizable from what it originally was, would the company then be forced to release the IP of the old version of their game?
To me, the answer to this question has large implications on how things would play out with future live service games.
I'm just commenting for the algorithm. Keep it up dude love the content
Valve actually has gotten the bots under control. They did it a bit before the summer update and it's been pretty decent since then. Massive ban waves with cheaters and bot hosters crying on social media. It was glorious. We just hope it lasts.
Old (mmo-victim) man here. Your sense of humor is great. You have impeccable comedic timing. Keep up the fun content.
About TF2 private servers: I played the original Team Fortress mod for Quake a lot back in the day, and so I've been around. Private servers used to be the standard. We always had good control over our communities because of it. They got rid of because it allowed companies to control their product more. Younger people just don't know how much was lost when we went to official servers. Sure, the playerpool is larger, but it's also just random people. With private servers you get to know people.
Yea it seems like people who defend companies have never played a game with community servers.
If I was game dev that would have never happen, I would create the perfect game wiht no flaws because I am gamer and I know what gamers want unlike those game developers
you being staunchly anti-capitalist is very enjoyable to me
Excellent job Idyl, you really did a great job with this video!
im still sooking to this day i cant play wildstar anymore
I think a core issue not mentioned here is similar to Right-to-repair, this petition is just kind of trying to address consumer protection. When you buy something, you should own the thing you bought. If you buy a phone, you should be able to fix that phone if the screen breaks, not have to pay almost as much to repair the phone "from the manufacturer" as it would cost to buy a new phone, if you buy a game, you should be able to play the game until YOU no longer want to play, not until the company decides to no longer support it. In our current corporate environment, where even car companies are trying to make features like heated seats an "as-a-service" feature where you would have to pay a monthly fee to access it, it is time for the consumer to try to take some ground against a system where corporations continue getting more and more freedom to do whatever the hell they want, while consumers just baisically have to lay down and take it.
Yea. We should have the right to repair older games because no matter how good this initiative, it ain’t bringing back ones that have already gone. Laws just don’t apply to older things like that, and even if they did, half the companies ain’t even around to fix their old games anymore. So having this right to repair would be great
i now wander if wildstar has a private server i miss some old games that are now gone i wish the law passes and we can keep playing old games legally and maybe companies will give their source openly when they give up support of the game
Great video overall. I just think Idyl missed one of the best examples he could give for his argument: the case with Project 1999 Everquest and Daybreak.
The whole Project Zanarak(?) thing isn't really private... Jagex would technically still control the server/IP, they're just giving players access to all of the Dev options.
I think there needs to be better lingo to use for these types of things.
I liked the video, recently (for like a good month or two) the tf2 bot problem has actually been extremely, gone. Bots are actually so hard to run into in the main servers.
World of Warcraft will never die. Even if Blizzard is no more, people will keep it running. Even if there are no players to play with, there are already solo WoW servers with bot companions.
the pokemon collo music is jus so perfect w these
The biggest 'told you so' video ever.
As someone who's main online multiplayer game is Rocket League - I would lose almost nothing from the experience playing on privately hosted servers.
On a less mean note, preservation isn't just about preserving things that are "worth playing" or to ensure they remain popular - it's just a good practice for any medium that takes itself seriously. It's very hard to learn from something you can't directly reference.
Yea. A lot of people are saying only the good games should be saved when that’s a bad way of thinking about it. They all should be saved no matter what you think of it.
The tucked hoodie has returned!!!!! 💯🔥🔥
while the crew 2 and the crew motorfest arent traditional mmos
ubisoft announced that they give those games an offline mode in the future
but i doubt giving an offline mode would work on most things
TF2 community servers have always been the backbone of the game, some of my favorite gaming memories are just me and like 18 other homies chillin on 2fort shootin the shit and never capping the intel for hours on end.
Valve has always had 1) offline modes for most games, 2) community server support. far from a perfect company, but a good example of what other companies could do to support their games
@@IdylOnTV I agree, also would love to see you try and take a crack at savage/ultimate raiding in FF14 and report back on it, as its mostly seen as the casual/story driven mmo.
stop because i'm literally writing my thesis about this topic. i've been a fan of yours for years but i never thought about how i could actually end up citing you as a source!
A lot of CD Key games don't work anymore either.
They require a connection for the innitial authentification, and those servers have been taken down.
While I do like Thor, I'm not a shill for him either. But I think a valid concern is not what the stop killing games movement is about, but rather the fear that politicians will fuck it up with some of the poor framing that it has on certain subjects.
Just came here to say, god damn, I miss Wildstar.
Honestly i feel that Toon-Town handled the shut down in one of the best ways iv seen, Releasing a version true to the original (just removing anything that Disney would shut them down over) and applying patches and some small updates to add features that would have came out or based on the games original ideas. Keeping the game in a playable state. They even had some successful spin off games as well that rebalanced some things and added new areas.
I’ve never heard of toon town, but if that’s what they did, that’s great
You could talk about Toontown Rewritten too. Community revived server that’s still going
Hey Idly, thanks for telling my friends I'm not as stupid as I seem. It's things like that that would have me democratically vote for you if there had been a poll for MMO prez.
Bots are gone from TF2. Going on it's second month bot free.
To be clear regarding the TF2 example - running private servers isn't something the community started doing in response to the bot crisis. Valve have distributed game server executables for almost all of their online multiplayer games from the get-go. Official (Valve run) TF2 servers weren't even a thing for the first few years of the game's life - all players joined games from a browser of privately run servers.
Younger gamers might not realise that this was pretty much how every multiplayer game (besides MMOs and other "live service-y" titles) did it up until the mid 2000s, and it was so much better IMO
Yes when they aren't profitable, BUT people should be able to launch their own private servers and maintain the game after. ideally the comapny gives access to the server's source code, or at least parts that are capable of being released publically. If not, so long as it is allowed to be ran (bonus if it has the companies's blessing) is all that matters. Heck, if for some reason it is brought back at a later time I'm even okay if a private server has to shut down for the sake of an official server being brought on. So long as there is some possibility for people to be able to play the game is the important thing.
Valve has already fixed the cheating and botting issue in Team Fortress 2. One or two months ago already actually
The next huge MMO that will shut down will be RuneScape, they're not doing great and the community is shrinking.
On the point of the OSRS community servers, I don't remember if EA has done them for Battlefield 2042; but they were a popular thing in the old Battlefield games in the 2010s (3, 4, and hardline for sure I remember seeing a lot of).
Let’s get the live service law over the line. Next should be MMOs. Just release the server code.
I actually completely agree with Thor, as a developer it's just not feasible. It's a mediocre at best idea that wouldn't work in today's game development world
It is feasible. We already have private servers for plenty of games.
Love that drawing in paint reference 😂
Just to be clear, I am stupid.
Me too buddy. Me too….
They better not shut down Guild Wars 1.. My favorite MMO of all time
Its not an mmo
@@shongueesha7875 Lots of MMO elements, its an online RPG though. Close enough
Thanks boo bear. Awesome video! I think you have a really interesting perspective. Especially considering how many games are being released that are online only.
Hi tf2 player here! Youre a bit behind on the tf2 situation. The bots are gone, bot hosters have recieved a permanent gameban, and cheaters are getting banned if they are reported. tf2 is playable again!!