Would still say it needs a 32A breaker, or at least each outlet tap point to have a 32A RCBO unit in there, as that reduces the likelihood of summed up ground currents from IT equipment tripping a single RCD device there. Plus of course you will find heaters being plugged in in a school, or office, it always will be that there will be a few people who feel cold in winter, even with the heat in the room set to the correct level, as they want a walk in fridge in summer, and a convection oven in winter, so will bring in that heater, multiple of them, and plug them in. Have had a few cases of people plugging in a heater to the UPS supply, and then blowing up the UPS, or causing the entire system to trip on overload, because they felt cold.
Any rule that is stated in the form of "A is allowed unless B, (except C, where D does not apply or E is present) is utterly confusing and hard to read and comprehend. There should be simple separate cases where something is allowed or not.
And my previous comment is demonstrated by your remark because the regulation doesn't use "unless" as you said. The regulation is written "Except where rule A or rule B applies, this rule applies.." So your approach to this is very easy: you read rule A and decide if it applies. If it doesn't apply, you then read rule B and decide if that applies. If that doesn't apply too, then the rule you are reading applies and is the rule you need to follow. If you are struggling to comprehend that, then you really do need to go back to school or night school and pass that GCSE in English you didn't get, which you should have got when aged 16. But of course you won't do that, and you will continue to go on through your career being handicapped struggling to read and comprehend the regulations you need to follow.
The more meaning full question eFIXX is would you be comfortable putting it on a 63A breaker, where in the future, someone could plug a 5M tap of into the track without knowing the limitations. I have also seen plenty of situations where one plugs in fan heaters and kettles under their desk. IMO, it's better to have two 32A circuits each feeding different tracks than one large 63A protected track.
A great exploration and explanation of the relevant standards as usual Joe and I can see how the MT underfloor system might comply. Maybe I'm missing something but I think that the protection device (13A fuse?) would need to be fitted in a single socket (not the plug top) to ensure that the reduced current capacity of the tap off cable is adequately protected against overload. For example: if the reduced current capacity cable is feeding four sockets and the plug tops are fitted with 13A fuses then the load on the cable could be 13A x 4 = 52A......!!!
Thats ok till the HVAC system fails or one end of the office doesnt get any sun, and the girls start sneaking in the electric heaters, have seen it many times @@dennisphoenix1
@@dennisphoenix1 Thanks for your reply. The observation I was making is that there is nothing to prevent four 3Kw heaters from being plugged in with the result that the reduced capacity tap off cable would be overloaded without any of the overcurrent protection devices tripping. This is an observation only and maybe MT have a perfectly sound technical justification for their configuration.
Nice video….educational! Quick question, (or 2) 1: What to stop the socket boxes being used in a way that exceeds the rating of the cable on the the 32amp tap off 2: What if (due to short runs) you had a zs at the floor box of around 0.11 or similar. Will the cores of the 32amp tap off withstand such current without causing damage or fire?
If I was responsible for specifying a university space, there is no freaking way I would approve sockets on a 63A breaker, whatever BS7671 says. People *will* come into University spaces from abroad, and they *will* bring dodgy unfused and unshuttered travel adapters with them.
True, although I suppose they could do the same with a 32A circuit, and in domestic properties, you often find cooker switches with a 13A socket on 40A circuits, although I doubt anybody is likely to shove an unfused adapter into those.
A 2.5mm2 spur, or even just a normal socket on a 32A ring with an unfused travel adapter feeding multiple space heaters is not going to be much better than a socket fed by a 63A circuit and such an adapter. Still, 4x 13A sockets seem excessive on such a connection. 3x13A would sum to 39A, and with some diversity math you can argue 32A wiring is unlikely to be seriously overloaded, while a sum of 52A is a bit much for 32A wiring.
Have this at my work or i should say similar and the "floor boxes" as we call them have rcd protection on the box containingbthe 2x double sockets but they can be annoying when they rcd is knocked off by a power cable or data cable as the floating floor is close to the top of the floor box
Whomever reprimanded you deserved a tango slap. I've had dozens up doing 1st fix installs/remedials. The only thing I've had to do is jsp barrier off the working area to stop some dime bar tripping over stacked tiles or falling 8 inch into the open area. Destabilising the floor don't make me laugh. One lifted tile causes the same effect as having a hundred up. H&S/C.O.W NUMPTIES........
The buss/buzz thing is quite interesting; I’ve been called out before for pronouncing it buzz, but it’s just the way everyone around me always pronounced it. There are loads of words which are spelled with S but pronounced with a Z so I just assumed it was another one of those, like ‘President’, ‘Jersey’ or ‘Rose’ etc. Everyone I know pronounces it buzz so I think it’s just another thing which highlights differences in all of our accents.
I have always said busbar. If anybody has a buzz bar, they should tighten the connections! 😉 I don't know why so many say buzz bar. I have never heard anybody say buzz stop instead of bus stop!
It doesn't matter how you pronounce it. Spelling on documentation should, however, be correct. Vocalising "buzz" is a profession/trade querk. No harm in it. It's all good. "Stop enjoying yourself, you're at work"...
The rcd protecting the sockets should stay in the cardboard box it came in and not be installed. IT equipment is notorious for leakage current. Plus no one is going outside with an extension lead plugged into them sockets on the 10th floor . No Rcd protection required. Engineering decision to be made to show rcd not required.
There’s no way I’d trust an open plan office to not end up with at least one person with 3 convector heaters under their desk. I’d have an RCBO in the floor box, best of both worlds
Typical heaters are 2 to 2.3kW to match 10A circuits in the rest of Europe. 3 will pull 30A and use 6.9kW. Only a fourth one will even push the load above 32A, to a modest 40A. Then you would have 9.2kW under one desk, and it will get rather hot. The only realistic way to seriously overload this would be four extensions loaded close to 13A all from one group of sockets, so that the 9.2kW is not concentrated under one desk.
Design and build ? NO one can stop stupidity . When most products were made in the UK , it was simple , now every thing is made in Europe or China . So learning all the time . Adapt or die . A ring main is 32 amps , so the plug top fuse is doing the work , it is just a case of the plug tops get bigger ? Another very interesting video . Wait till some one pulls the fuse for the Tea Urn and a nuclear reactor shuts down , and all hell brakes loose .
Would still say it needs a 32A breaker, or at least each outlet tap point to have a 32A RCBO unit in there, as that reduces the likelihood of summed up ground currents from IT equipment tripping a single RCD device there. Plus of course you will find heaters being plugged in in a school, or office, it always will be that there will be a few people who feel cold in winter, even with the heat in the room set to the correct level, as they want a walk in fridge in summer, and a convection oven in winter, so will bring in that heater, multiple of them, and plug them in. Have had a few cases of people plugging in a heater to the UPS supply, and then blowing up the UPS, or causing the entire system to trip on overload, because they felt cold.
Super interesting video! Nice one Joe!
Any rule that is stated in the form of "A is allowed unless B, (except C, where D does not apply or E is present) is utterly confusing and hard to read and comprehend. There should be simple separate cases where something is allowed or not.
Idk seems pretty straight forward to me?🤔😆
@@danielelise7348 Me too.
It is hard to understand for many electricians because they failed GCSE or O level English in school.
And my previous comment is demonstrated by your remark because the regulation doesn't use "unless" as you said.
The regulation is written "Except where rule A or rule B applies, this rule applies.."
So your approach to this is very easy: you read rule A and decide if it applies.
If it doesn't apply, you then read rule B and decide if that applies.
If that doesn't apply too, then the rule you are reading applies and is the rule you need to follow.
If you are struggling to comprehend that, then you really do need to go back to school or night school and pass that GCSE in English you didn't get, which you should have got when aged 16.
But of course you won't do that, and you will continue to go on through your career being handicapped struggling to read and comprehend the regulations you need to follow.
Very good explanation of this type of system. Legrand do a similar system including Floor boxes.
The more meaning full question eFIXX is would you be comfortable putting it on a 63A breaker, where in the future, someone could plug a 5M tap of into the track without knowing the limitations. I have also seen plenty of situations where one plugs in fan heaters and kettles under their desk.
IMO, it's better to have two 32A circuits each feeding different tracks than one large 63A protected track.
Great video as always Joe very interesting and informative. 👍
Whenever we use busbar trunking in Ireland we have PDU's or floor boxes that have built in rcbo's.
A great exploration and explanation of the relevant standards as usual Joe and I can see how the MT underfloor system might comply. Maybe I'm missing something but I think that the protection device (13A fuse?) would need to be fitted in a single socket (not the plug top) to ensure that the reduced current capacity of the tap off cable is adequately protected against overload.
For example: if the reduced current capacity cable is feeding four sockets and the plug tops are fitted with 13A fuses then the load on the cable could be 13A x 4 = 52A......!!!
He said the likelihood of the 4 outlets being used to maximum capacity is slim , normally floor boxes are used for PC'S and monitors etc.
As a spur from a ring final circuit. Effectively running a 2.5 twin and earth towards 1 spur, or towards fused spur.....
Thats ok till the HVAC system fails or one end of the office doesnt get any sun, and the girls start sneaking in the electric heaters, have seen it many times @@dennisphoenix1
@@dennisphoenix1 Thanks for your reply. The observation I was making is that there is nothing to prevent four 3Kw heaters from being plugged in with the result that the reduced capacity tap off cable would be overloaded without any of the overcurrent protection devices tripping. This is an observation only and maybe MT have a perfectly sound technical justification for their configuration.
@@robertturner2516 Good observation Robert.
Nice video….educational!
Quick question, (or 2)
1: What to stop the socket boxes being used in a way that exceeds the rating of the cable on the the 32amp tap off
2: What if (due to short runs) you had a zs at the floor box of around 0.11 or similar. Will the cores of the 32amp tap off withstand such current without causing damage or fire?
Very informative.
If I was responsible for specifying a university space, there is no freaking way I would approve sockets on a 63A breaker, whatever BS7671 says.
People *will* come into University spaces from abroad, and they *will* bring dodgy unfused and unshuttered travel adapters with them.
Or some study in AI leads to a rack of servers with power hungry GPU's pluged into a socket or two.....
True, although I suppose they could do the same with a 32A circuit, and in domestic properties, you often find cooker switches with a 13A socket on 40A circuits, although I doubt anybody is likely to shove an unfused adapter into those.
A 2.5mm2 spur, or even just a normal socket on a 32A ring with an unfused travel adapter feeding multiple space heaters is not going to be much better than a socket fed by a 63A circuit and such an adapter.
Still, 4x 13A sockets seem excessive on such a connection. 3x13A would sum to 39A, and with some diversity math you can argue 32A wiring is unlikely to be seriously overloaded, while a sum of 52A is a bit much for 32A wiring.
If the regs says you can then you can
Great video that's more like very interesting
Would this also apply to the size of meter tails into the consumer unit?
Have this at my work or i should say similar and the "floor boxes" as we call them have rcd protection on the box containingbthe 2x double sockets but they can be annoying when they rcd is knocked off by a power cable or data cable as the floating floor is close to the top of the floor box
I got a reprimand for taking up that many tiles for destabilising the floor .
Called... 'Artistic License' or as the chaps at eFFIX like to call it... whatever they like. 🙄
Whomever reprimanded you deserved a tango slap. I've had dozens up doing 1st fix installs/remedials. The only thing I've had to do is jsp barrier off the working area to stop some dime bar tripping over stacked tiles or falling 8 inch into the open area.
Destabilising the floor don't make me laugh. One lifted tile causes the same effect as having a hundred up.
H&S/C.O.W NUMPTIES........
how can we get compliancy using 5m tap off units
What’s stopping them, they , plunging 4 massive extension leads into your 4 outlets ?
Fitted an elektrak system and each tap off lead has its own rcd module for each desk
Volume is really low?
My old university. Also, it's bus, not buzz bar. Why do so many people pronounce it the latter way?
The buss/buzz thing is quite interesting; I’ve been called out before for pronouncing it buzz, but it’s just the way everyone around me always pronounced it. There are loads of words which are spelled with S but pronounced with a Z so I just assumed it was another one of those, like ‘President’, ‘Jersey’ or ‘Rose’ etc.
Everyone I know pronounces it buzz so I think it’s just another thing which highlights differences in all of our accents.
I have always said busbar. If anybody has a buzz bar, they should tighten the connections! 😉 I don't know why so many say buzz bar. I have never heard anybody say buzz stop instead of bus stop!
It doesn't matter how you pronounce it. Spelling on documentation should, however, be correct.
Vocalising "buzz" is a profession/trade querk. No harm in it. It's all good. "Stop enjoying yourself, you're at work"...
After all this, is easier just to use the plug with a fuse in it.
If your bus bar is buzzing then maybe there's something wrong...
The rcd protecting the sockets should stay in the cardboard box it came in and not be installed. IT equipment is notorious for leakage current. Plus no one is going outside with an extension lead plugged into them sockets on the 10th floor . No Rcd protection required. Engineering decision to be made to show rcd not required.
There’s no way I’d trust an open plan office to not end up with at least one person with 3 convector heaters under their desk. I’d have an RCBO in the floor box, best of both worlds
Typical heaters are 2 to 2.3kW to match 10A circuits in the rest of Europe. 3 will pull 30A and use 6.9kW. Only a fourth one will even push the load above 32A, to a modest 40A. Then you would have 9.2kW under one desk, and it will get rather hot.
The only realistic way to seriously overload this would be four extensions loaded close to 13A all from one group of sockets, so that the 9.2kW is not concentrated under one desk.
Design and build ? NO one can stop stupidity . When most products were made in the UK , it was simple , now every thing is made in Europe or China . So learning all the time . Adapt or die . A ring main is 32 amps , so the plug top fuse is doing the work , it is just a case of the plug tops get bigger ? Another very interesting video . Wait till some one pulls the fuse for the Tea Urn and a nuclear reactor shuts down , and all hell brakes loose .
This regulations have no sense !, Having a mcb or RCBO in the enclosure of electrical outlet should be mandatory!