Thanks for watching everyone! PJiggle's original video: ruclips.net/video/wqRZN8XIZo0/видео.html My Link rework on MockRock: ruclips.net/video/CRzflRd6Ia4/видео.html *Main channel:* ruclips.net/user/mockrocktv *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
I have to say, from what I’ve seen I think it’s way too early to claim BOTW is influential as it’s only been 6 years. Games take a long time to make so we’ll honestly have to wait a bit longer to see if it’s truly influential to the gaming space. Keep in mind I love BOTW but to call it influential seems a bit hasty as the only games I have seen that adopted features that seem wholly unique to BOTW are Genshin Impact copying BOTW climbing system. And Ocean Horn 2 which shouldn’t even count as much like the first Ocean Horn the 2nd is just a poor man’s Zelda Game This is coming from the guy who 100% Ocean Horn 1 cause I hate myself
@@dinoshotgun The only real true influence BOTW can say to have is on Zelda devs. Aonuma said in an interview that he wants any Zelda game he works on in the future to draw from it. Obviously we'll see if he actually means it (or if he was even allowed to), but it at least feels like for Zelda itself BOTW made as big an impression that hasn't been seen on the since, like, OOT I guess.
@@ShyRanger that I fully agree with, it’s just when people say it’s influenced the entire game industry, that’s what I disagree with. It has more than likely influenced the entire Zelda series going forward. I just think people are jumping the gun when saying it has influenced the whole gaming landscape
@@dinoshotgun Just because the majority of the games that took influence from BotW were commercial and/or critical flops that didn't understand the mechanical things they were trying to imitate doesn't mean there's not a lot of examples. People were already trying to half-assedly copy TotK before it even came out. And that's still significant, even if such instances are comparatively a flash in the pan. Like, influence is a much broader thing than the criteria you set. In fact, only looking at the mechanically unique elements of BotW is actually a fairly shortsighted way to think about it. Far more influential were the more subtle aspects of world design and location flow, which is typically a far more pivotal part of open world game development. A lot of the BotW DNA in Elden Ring is what has made it more multi-replayable than the other SoulsBorne games. People love routing out paths through the game for picking up stuff for different build goals and such. Navigation is a key element of fun, instead of being the thing you do between the fun parts of the game. Though, I say all this not even being being all that much of a fan of open world games personally. And, obviously, other Zelda games have been even more influential so far in the past. OoT's Z-Targeting is still being used regularly throughout the industry and across many genres, for instance. But, the writing was also on the wall for how influential that was within only a couple years. By contrast, BotW is already a whole console generation old (even if Nintendo is milking every profitable year they can out of the Switch).
@@Shalakor except the thing about routing paths is not unique to BOTW, it didn’t invent that, if anything replayablility and routing paths originated from Rouge Lites and Rouge Likes, not BOTW. Again way to quick to jump the gun there in calling BOTW influential when the only real mechanics unique to BOTW are it’s climbing system (which a few games have replicated) and it’s physics based chemistry system, to say it influenced the way of routing out a path and replayability is just wrong. Heck while I said Rouge Lites invented it, it’s much more likely that the first Legend of Zelda invented it (and of course A Link to the Past refined it) this can be clearly seen as the BOTW devs said that the first Legend of Zelda was a major influence on the making of BOTW Again I love BOTW and I really hope more games are influenced by it, but as it stands now it’s far to early to say if it’s influenced the games industry as a whole
Good coverage video! It's interesting to see the views of my ideas from someone that has a wildly different approach to potential Smash movesets. Personally I don't care too much about the balance of characters to be honest, so even if Ganondorf getting long big sword slashes for tilts would make him a weak character competitively, it's still something I would be extremely happy with. Also personally I see a character's specials as moves that really *need* to be direct references to their games, which is why I'm fine with all of Young Link's normals, and why I think just changing him to have the specials I proposed makes him an "amazing" representation of Majora's Mask, even if they kept all his normals the same. Still a great video though! I'll be checking out your video soon and uploading my thoughts on it to my second channel 😎
100% agree about specials. Standard attacks are meant to be the normal punches, kicks, and slashes, while the whole reason the others are called “specials” is because the moves are both unique references to that character/series and they offer stronger utility than standard attacks.
Overall I am more than agree with the approach of changing moveset in smash bros between games isn't like they are from FG most of them like with all honesty just I change ganondorf to dirty tactian in a heart beat
@@MockRockTalk The reason Why Sakurai doesn't does't change characters has nothing to do with alienating players, no the real reason is balance. If a character canonically has too much potential Sakurai will simplify the character if it's the easy answer. If a character has no potential then the character must be stronger than their game, Jiggly Puff, Ice Climbers, Caption Falcon, Game and Watch. For example everyone was asking for Sora in Smash, and when we got him competitive fans had a hard time playing him. This is because Sora is reduced to having only KH 1 moves, one move from Dream Drop Distance and thats it. Why, because if Sora had too many moves from his later games he would be (broken) in Smash. Moral of the story have low expectations for really powerful characters.
@@theenderkirby Ganon being a Falcon clone would be disappointing if Falcon as a one to one translation of F-zero, Caption Falcon in Smash is fast, strong and that's it. So Ganon in Smash is like Falcon in that he reflects the Zelda series from a (symbolic stand point) rather than literal representation. Ganon has the Triforce of Power, so for Smash he has a powerful moveset. However it comes at the cost of everything else!!!!!!! This means that Ganon can't afford to make a mistake, because every attack will leave him vulnerable. He feels less like a character and more like a playable boss to the absolute extreme.
The thing with Toon Link’s new forward smash is that the animation is directly taken from one of his attack animations in Wind Waker, so it actually is a direct reference to one of his source Game moves
@@RedBoi88 Except isn't like this whole video complaining about Zelda characters not having stuff from their own games. And yet that's from his own game so there you go. Oh you want something from his game AND it's good. Okay that's fine, just don't act like you only care about the canon of past stuff.
Considering Wind Waker has easily my favorite sword attack animations in the Zelda franchise and I _still_ didn't realize his forward smash was a reference to them until now... yeah, they probably could've done better.
8:51 You forgot the most important, character-defining change of all: They made it so he can pick up an arrow he missed, firing two the next time he uses the bow.
That "What the hell is a wizards foot" was so out of nowhere and funny to me. . . And completely correct, I've never thought about how dumb that name is 😂
I mean, it is a good thing Ganondorf is not just a wizard, but even if the foot is from a wizard that can brawl, “wizard’s foot” is so indistinct a name that it is bad in principle.
adding to your point at 16:30ish, you could totally make the spear and two-handed swords be specific important weapons from BotW and TotK, like Mipha's Lightscale Trident or Daruk's Boulder Breaker, or any of the many big legacy weapons you earn from old maps.
The most unfaithful part of Ganondorf in Smash is that he’s a heavyweight with some of the hardest hitting moves in the game, but in all his fights in Zelda he does fuck all damage
@@alviabtahi5440 That's fair, but in Zelda games he also tends to fly around and move relatively quickly. His slow, heavy demeanor in Smash is a direct result of the devs trying to differentiate him from Captain Falcon.
I honestly can't tell if this comment is a joke or not, and if it is k you can ignore me. But if you're serious with that then your argument is kinda moot. The reason Ganondorf is "weak" in Zelda games is because they are made by a family company, who wants any 8-year-old to play OoT and have a good chance at winning. By your logic, King Dedede should also do barely any damage, Bowser should be super telegraphed, and Pikachu should kill Charizard instantly with one or two attacks.
@@ShyRanger to be fair, Bowser is one of the most telegraphed characters in the game and Pikachu with his combos does kill Charizard in a couple interactions. I agree with your point, I just think you picked odd examples
The most messed up part about the Black Shadow thing is that his and Capt. Falcon's in game stats in F-Zero GX actually match their theoretical Smash movesets too. Black Shadow's Boost is lower than Falcon's (movement speed) and his Body stat is higher (weight, survivability, etc.) So it's even more perfect of an inclusion from that perspective
@@ScLuigi You might be right about that, actually. Still, I don't think it takes away from the idea of making B. Shadow an echo fighter that much. Falcon's always been portrayed as a better racer anyway. Plus, Boost could just mean Dash speed in this context and the Body stat point still stands.
While yes, Wolf Link is technically "just another Link" I do think that the fact that he would play so completely different to the other Links would more than make up for that. And I just think it would be awesome to see him and Midna in playable form, because man do I love that game
Yeah I didn't really get the "it's just another Link" argument. If I hadn't already played Twilight Princess I would have zero reason to expect that they're the same, or even slightly related characters.
the main problem is that having *4* of what is effectively one character is utterly ridiculous, especially considering the fact that they could be adding a bunch of other characters.
The first remix he played is actually a Brawl remix; it's even used as Link's introduction in the Subspace Emissary, Brawl's adventure mode, and that cutscene was *sick*
22:21 I'd like to make a note against the special transformations for Young Link in PJiggles' favor because the quick transformations create a lot of technical problems as well. If that idea was a thing, Yink 4 player Free For Alls spamming special moves all time with all the particle effects and constant model (and potentially hurt box) shifting might overloud the switch systems and cause the game to slow down or maybe even Crash. I'm more on board with PJiggles' idea of just having Yink were the masks while doing those moves.
I do feel like Young Link can just quickly transform into his other forms when using his powers. Like both Corrin and Kazuya do the same with Corrin even turning into their full dragon form for their up and down throws.
I feel it is not nearly as similar tho. It's only one form and they are mostly the same physically, for corrin it's specific limbs and stuff. IDK if the size and proportion changes are nearly as cohesive or simple. Secondly the throws are static, you can't escape or get hit in a 1 on 1 during them, and the dragon isn't too bad/ YLink should follow the lead of similar setup but different execution to tie them together
I feel like they could have Young Link permanently turn into the other forms after using the specials, and getting a small stat change for each form. Although, that would make up special a bit weird, but that could easily be fixed by removing the special fall on up special or making it a cancellable charge move.
The only full transformations into a totally different body shape are Corrin's throws, wich are uninterruptible due to invincibility and can take their time. Transforming YLink into Deku, Zora or Goron would have to be really fast and, probably, janky. Also, the barrels have the problem of being to big to work as a normal item pull, they would have to behave more like Snake's grenades or Inkling's splatbomb, fundamentally changing a relevant aspect of his gameplay.
I mean if we are going to do something completely different for ganondorf, I think his TOTK interpretation would be pretty sick. Without getting into spoilers hes got great moveset potential and also has 3 great looking designs that would make for really nice alternate costumes
I honestly think that by next game we'll be back to the old formula of the main Triforce trio taking their designs from the latest game rather than each representing a different Zelda title. BOTW and TOTK were unprecedented successes for the series, and Nintendo I'd going to want to push that version of the series as heavily as possible, especially considering that I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to do 60 fps upscaled rereleases of both games on their next console, which will keep their designs relevant even as the next game in the series approaches.
Frankly, Young and Toon Link could just "keep" a Triforce Slash of sorts but the former does it as the Fierce Deity and the latter ends it with the forehead stab.
Honestly I don't get the Triforce Slash hate that much. I feel like if these characters were done better with everything else EXCEPT Slash, PJiggles wouldn't damn it to hell like he does now. Feels ore like the last straw.
I honestly despise that pjiggles' reasoning for hating triforce slash so much is that it isn't a reference...when not only is ancient arrow (something he praises to high heaven for being a reference) is an infinitely lamer and less cool final smash; but also if they just changed TFS to be fierce deity doing the exact same move, he'd be cheering and saying it's the best thing ever. not everything needs to be a reference; bc thinking like that is how we had the sonic two flickies meme happen in the first place. (also; for me at least, triforce slash gets by purely bc of how cool it is)
@@Adambomb2002 I mean, the fact that fierce deity would be the exact same idea yet they still have young link triforce slash is what makes it frustrating. It’s like the single most obvious final smash for any character and they didn’t do it
@@Adambomb2002 I have found Triforce Slash significantly less cool since Brawl, personally. The sword slashing just sounds like splashing water or something now lol. I do agree that BOTW Link's new FS is lame though despite the reference. I don't see why we can't have it be a reference and look cool at the same time.
@@ShyRangerYeah but its kinda more salt in the wound, like Ganon's smash attacks in Ult being ripped from other characters and using a sword from a tech demo, which I personally would love so much more if it wasn't the ONLY thing they did. The fact it isn't from any games and its the only real thing they added is kinda rubbing it in. Same goes for Triforce Slash though I don't mind it myself, I just think its a bit boring
For Toon Link's final smash, I always thought it would be funny if he used the ballad of gales to summon a cyclone directly onto the stage. It's big, it's it's destructive, he does it, and it could even reuse a lot of its code from the MM moon assist trophy.
Every time MockRock argued that x hypothetical move would be a cool too see, but realistically not fun to play against, I yelled out “That has never stopped the Smash devs before!”.
The big issue I can think of for Young Link actually transforming is hitboxes. If he transformed, the hitbox would change since Link changes size drastically.
13:56 it’s all a matter of implementation. I would say fighting games are the genre where are stun mechanics are the most fitting, inactionablity is the core of all strategy in fighting games from recovery to hitstun. Gill’s retribution mechanic In sfv is a fun stun based mechanic that would work well in the context of link. There are plenty of well designed stuns in games from a ton of different games.
@@julienherard414 Zelda not having a Hilda costume still really bugs me. When I first got Smash 4 and didn't see it, I thought "Well that sucks, but maybe LBW came out too late?" Then I got all the music with Yuga's theme and got annoyed again. And yes it's possible they still didn't have tie for an alt, but that's like the easiest one ever.
@ShyRanger It would have been interesting if they made Hilda like a reverse Zelda in terms of her moveset. I don't know what that would look like, though.
8:01 just because there's very minor cosmetic differences that doesn't mean he's not a clone. That bow attack is practically the same pose, just with toon link's shorter frame. Now if you wanted to show a UNIQUE animation, look at his back throw.
@@TheRealBatabii sorry I re read your comment (I was very tired when I wrote my original) and I understand you mean that just because it’s slightly different doesn’t mean he isn’t a clone and I said that he was a clone because not theory crafting a new moveset would be easier.
Sakurai is a KOF fan, isn't he? Knowing that, it kinda makes sense he would have that view of fighting game characters. SNK characters seem to change a lot between different games, enough so that multiple versions of one person can be multiple playable characters. He probably doesn't want players to have a character crisis or something, since he must've had one at some point.
15:30 Controversial opinion perhaps, but I don't know if I would ever want to see Bayonetta getting further substantial reworks, though that's more on the level of absolutely nailing it the first time, matching the feel of the original game so well that it killed Smash 4.
He probably didn't put THAT much thought into it since it's 80+ characters to go over. G&W, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Wii Fit, Inkling, Pacman, etc. Those characters aren't in high demand to be notably changed outside of numbers. Point is, many of which are open to a notable rework in his mind.
Ngl when I saw you both post the same video at the same time I thought it was some massive RUclipsr Collab and I just didn't know any other RUclipsrs doing it
39:56 I've been thinking about Master Kohga on this for a long time now. With Age of Calamity existing now, it shows there's plenty of creative things that could be worked into his moveset. He also has a ton of personality with three games under his belt now. Now that Tears of the Kingdom is done and we're moving on to the next Zelda game soon, he might be a bit of a strange pick, but I can totally see how he could work in Smash.
15:15 And the only reason Fox, Captain Falcon, and Marth have this reputation, this "we shouldn't change them because they're iconic" is because their canon games don't give them anything. Their Smash moves don't have any canon moves to get replaced by. Maybe give Fox a new forward smash from Adventures?
26:49 it can just be triforce slash, but without the triforce and with fierce deity. That's it. Just reskin triforce slash, call it "Fierce Diety rush"(or something) and boom. A generic final smash that doesn't have a direct reference is now an amazing reference to the one time you could go nuts on Majora in Majora's Mask's final boss sequence
It could be like Ike’s final smash or just have it be a transformation final smash where all his sword attacks give you sword beams and do insane damage about 2x as powerful as max aura lucario
35:43 well... Deadman's Volley isn't the end all be all move for Ganondorf if the particular moveset was using his Trident in some way, shape, or form, as that lends itself far more towards him having the Trident Throw instead of the Deadman's Volley (or have both on the same moveset, but then you'd maybe have too many projectile options that overlap on the same kit)
Y'know, stasis actually could have also been a down special, a counter where Link temporary freezes the opponent and then retaliates once, launching the opponent afterwards
what if young link's mask transformations were "charged" versions of his special attacks that you get if you hold the special button for longer? so tapping it does the weaker normal version and holding it gives link time to transform and do the stronger version
Fun fact! Toon link got his down smash to be more similar to the other links! It used to be a 2 hit move in brawl and S4 but now it sends out, just like young link. Link down smash used to send up too!
I love how ganondorf's specials are named they all sound really menacing and evil, flame choke, warlock punch and dark dive, but then you have wizards foot, whick just sounds so dumb and unfitting
something I've never heard anyone say is moving spin attack to a jab finisher. In most 3D zelda games the spin attack is a quick one time spin. just make it a killing jab finisher. in zelda you can even just move the stick around and press b to do it instantly. sounds pretty jabby to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also: killing jabs can be a very useful tool and something as iconic as the spin attack is allowed to be that useful
Only confusion I'd see with that is, since Spin Attack would still be an AOE of sorts, giving someone an AOE Jab.... like, is that a thing? Also technically not every Zelda can you move and spin attack, only the 3D Zeldas, but in the 2D ones where the move started you can only do it by charging. Also don't know if you can ove to do it in BOTW.
@@ShyRanger I'd say the "AOE aspect" just makes it a bit more unique. And especially now in ultimate most jabs are just kind of... the "same". obviously not 100% true but I think its clear what I mean. And yes in the 2D games you have to charge it but at least I wouldn't let the 2D game inspire much of the sword moves honestly. It just feels more natural to look at the 3D games in for sword moves. Up air and down air based on Zelda II moves work but that's just because of the different perspective the game is played in.
@@ShyRanger No, an AOE jab is not a thing in smash yet. However in the early days of SSF2, one of the cut characters, Blue the hedgehog, might have had part of his jab spin in a circle with his sword and hit both sides. I'm an SSF2 historian hehe
@@MrMariosonicman I remember that from my Brawl days but I think that's not really a thing anymore right? Also that jab was hilariously awful. Funny cause it's on brawl MK
My idea for Wind wakers Link final smash would be is that he whips out the wind waker and does the ballad of gales where a tornado is summoned and carries both Link and the opponent to the great sea where Link is atop the king of red lions alongside Tetra and her crew shooting cannon balls to the enemy fighter on their ship and Link dealing the finishing blow with a mini celebration of him, the king of red lions, and tetra with her crew
I believe when smash 6 comes out, they should cut back the roster (40-50 characters) and focused, mainly on reworking current legacy characters. I think that would be a good way for it to stand out amongst its contemporaries
I'm just not a fan of changing Link's Up B. I personally kind of have a problem with Up B's that are just "The character flies back to the stage" so it always bugs me when people suggest it for Link. But that's just me.
I have the same issue--I actually think, contrary to the general pattern of moveset designs throughout Smash, the Up-B designs have gotten less creative over time. The N64 idea of turning Spin Attack into a helicopter aerial makes a lot of sense. Though I'd agree that if there are 3 Links in a game, they don't all need that as their recovery.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there more Up Bs that consist of “spinning your weapon/arms to get back to the stage” than those that are “glide yourself back to the stage”?
Honestly, the Young Link up B debacle could.just be solved by having the deku scrub be the up B while not on the stage or in the air, and the spin attack be the up B on the stage. The devs have done something like that before (whirling fortress).
On the stasis thing, i think it would be cool if stasis was Link's grab. The throws would be him building up the momentum and then releasing it. Wouldn't affect gameplay at all but i just think itd be neat.
23:50 Hearing your idea resonates with me more on a rework idea for young link. Also would be cool if they had him wield the gilded sword instead of teh kokiri sword and hold out the mirror shield from MM. Slight touches like these would go a long way. They could even make taunts like one with an ocarina since time is a huge mechanic in MM in many ways.
Couple things I wish to see. Ganondorf to come in both TP and OT skins. I never played OT until the 3DS remake, so I grew up with TP Ganon (other than WW), plus just nostalgic of the silliness that was Sm4sh and Brawl Ganon. I'm not a big fan of giving Ganon a levitation technique, considering he used it once (unless you really want to stretch it and count puppet Zelda), it just happens to be an iconic characteristic in an iconic game. I don't mind the lightning tennis bit. I see it as a down-B move which potentially could be a two-charge move. Uncharged being a simple flick with his arm, a decent get-off-me-tool, a quality where he can flick away weak projectiles like arrows, and reflect stronger ones like charge shot; and the charged move where he sends that projectile. Flame choke is fine (very biased). In Smash 4 they gave him Dark Fists a custom move which was both strong and gives him armour as he ascends. Adding Impa who I argue is just as important to the Zelda lore, and also like Link and Zelda have different iterations. Retaining the idea of different smash Zelda characters representing different parts of the timelines, what if the SS Impa is the character - not only a character who played a stronger role than other iterations, but its the furthest we've seen some extent of her abilities outside of spinoffs, as well as representing SS's 'importance' (subjectively) in the timeline. It is Sheik syndrome who rarely does much in the game, but plays her harp and vanishes.
33:30 Ganon has had Flame Choke since Melee, which was before Twilight Princess was even revealed. Flame Choke is either Ganon choking you out then exploding you into the ground or grabbing you by the face and dive bombing you into the floor, what you keep referring to as Flame Choke isn't even a choke, it's Ganon punching one of the sage's in the face and blowing them up, which is a better loose reference for Warlock Punch if anything.
Flame Choke was introduced in Brawl. Melee Ganon's sideB (Gerudo Dragon) was a more direct copy of Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost. Brawl went out of its way to de-clone a lot of moves and animations.
@@Evello37 I'm noticing a pattern of if a character has too much potential Sakurai will reduce the character for balance. Now Ganondorf using physical attacks is not out of character, in OOT he punched the ground so that floor tiles would fall of. It's like Sakurai said, (ok I'm going use that big punch moment and reduce him to just that, because a one to one translation would be too hard to balance).
I'll put what I put on Pjiggles video here for Young Link's final smash. He'd transform into Fierce Deity link then fire one of this sword beams that would travel across the stage launching everyone hit by it up into the Majora's Mask moon before he slices it in half dealing damage and hopefully taking a stock from whoever was caught up in it.
What if Ganon's float was a zair? It would allow him to still have Omni directional floats, instead of a Peach float. And allowing it to cancel into both regular attacks and specials would be easier than making it an up or neutral special.
The fact that Young Link doesn't at least transform into the Fierce Deity while performing Triforce Slash is criminal. Also, the only idea I've got for a "new" FS for Toon Link would be to copy either Captain Falcon's or Pit's, just instead of the Blue Falcon or Lightning Chariot he runs his opponent down with the Spirit Train. Come on, Toon Link running over his opponent with a train would be hilarious. I know the common counter point to that would be "it would be awkward if you're playing on the Spirit Train stage." to which I say, who cares? Landing Robin's FS while fighting Chrom results in Chrom beating the shit out of himself so I really don't think it's a big deal.
Seeing Ganondorf have a worse idle animation than Captain Falcon really hammers in how misrepresented he is in Smash. He doesn't feel like one of gaming's most famous and iconic villains. He almost feels like a forgotten Street Fighter character. So bizarre.
15:30 I still would love a video on this channel (or the main one, if you're feeling ambitious) about your top 10 characters you'd want reworked the most. I wanna know how you'd change them up.
39:36 this is not an ultimate remix. Ultimate remixes have the purple triangle in the corner while this one has the blue triangle, signifying that it is a remix from an older smash game.
You seem to be conflating “unfun” with poorly designed a lot. A move or a character doesn’t have to be fun to fight to be well made if that were the case there would be no such thing as: rushdown, grapplers, zoners The point of extreme archetypes is to be overwhelming when in their win condition this is necessarily supposed to induce negative feelings in the other player. A grappler that can’t induce fear is impotent in the same way that a zoner relies on frustration. That’s the double edge sword of multi player games.
I really like your commentary and your moveset ideas, they are really well thought-out. I wonder what moveset you'd give to Crash Bandicoot (& maybe Coco as an echo fighter), Professor Layton, Waluigi, Spyro and Eggman, the top 5 characters in my wishlist for the next Smash. It's a stretch and it's unlikely that you'll answer this question, but, as we say in Italian, asking is valid, answering is courteous
For Ganondorf's down-special, I'd personally say have it work like a counter/reflector move. It can reflect projectiles, but when he counters a melee hit he stuns the enemy and delivers the warlock punch, to keep something other than flame choke in his specials
So I was on the right track; it wasn't a collab, but you two were chewing the fat together about having the same video idea in the works at the same time. That's pretty cool. I hope PJiggles likes your video too
The only newcomer from Zelda franchise i will fell appropriate is Master Kohga, from botw and totk i feel is important enough, and anyone that play those games know about the Clan Yiga. He probably get cool ninja like moves and really funny chaotic, dumb attacks to represent the how the Yiga fight but showing his personality
Here’s a final smash idea for toon link ahem the attack will start with win using the phantom hourglass to freeze anyone in front of him if he can manage to catch someone his train will appear and hit them then a cutscene plays were the opponent is on a train track and they can’t move thanks to toon links phantom hourglass toon link apear on his train full speed ahead Choo Choo his train starts firing cannon shots and yes it has cannons because he is a bad#$# he then runs them over doing big damage and ending the cutscene
My main gripe with Link is that BOTW link should of been his own character, (at least a semiclone) so they could get a bit more experimental with him and Twilight Princess Link gets to stay. Also Thank you for defending Boomerang and flame choke.
@@waffleman8053 idk man people already complain with 3. Along with how much stuff is in ultimate they would have to lower the quality of something else to add in another character, even if that character is mostly a clone.
Honestly, a solution I could see is that BOTW Link and Wind Waker Link will stay, as they feel the most unique in playing. Young Link and Twilight Princess Link will not return.
The best Project M mod I've ever played was called Triforce Ganon, which was based off of the timeline where he wins and gets the full Triforce, and his taunts switched him between Wisdom Mode (Magic Moveset), Courage Mode (Sword Moveset) and Power Mode (Traditional Ganondorf Moveset)
I was inspired by PJiggles's video to draw up a few things for a Ganondorf rework (I made him dual-wield his swords from Ultimate to emphasize his sheer strength at using those things) and tried to do my own version of floating, but then I realized I could reuse my Dead Man's Volley drawings as a Float by combining the two moves. Thus have Up B make him float in any direction you want but trying to use specials just throws out an energy ball slow enough for Ganondorf to capitalize, and make his aerials cancel it. Also made Down-B a Trident Throw inspired by MK9 Shao Kahn because I wanted him to feel like a boss enemy.
For Young Link, I would have preferred for the smash attacks to be the transformations. Down Smash = Goron bounce Side smash = Zora backflip Up smash = Deku launch from flower without flying
15:10 I do agree with this point, but I also would like to add Jigglypuff and to some extent Ness to the list. I would be ok with ness getting reworked as long as he kept some key moves. Pk fire and pk thunder are non negotiable for me.
Ness, for better or worse, is a unique archetype. Under representation alone, Ness’s kit stays. However, if you were looking for the original 12 that have effective and iconic sets, Ness would need to be overhauled so completely he would not be the same character. Ness is just awkward enough that anything remotely resembling how he plays is middling at best in a final game meta.
@@iantaakalla8180 If ness were to get overhauled, I would suggest changing some of Lucas' special's properties. Like making Lucas' pk fire more like ness', so that ness has creative freedom.
31:25 here a question about the toon link final smash case why not just let him use the phantom hourglass to freeze time yeah I know I go with the jojo reference and bayonetta have somewhat similar one but like c'mon is still a super move that this link using it the wind waker link that is toon link in smash is also the link of phantom hourglass and I don't say is unbalaced is a final smash
Even after hundreds of comments I still don't think MockRock realizes that he and PJiggles uploaded the same video on the same day like woah man that's insane
15:33 After a bit of thought, yeah I agree. I feel like the only characters I would not change a single move of from the OG 12 are Ness, Fox and Falcon. Other than that, we can tweek the rest. Not even like total overhauls, just 1 or two move changes for some. For example, get rid of Jigglypuff's Rollout and give her Disarming Voice as a Neutral Special. Simple, harmless change that represents her better and gets rid of a move literally no one wants on her.
Personally, I think Revali's Gale is the better series representation than Ascend. Ascend would be a fun gimmick, but ultimately it comes from one game. Revali's Gale, and the paraglider it comes with, represent the last 3 zelda games, all of which had a focus on flying and gliding in some form. Giving a move that incorporates that feels like a good way to represent more of the series
Also, Ascend would be a broken move because if it is faithful, you would get to recover for free when underneath the main platform. It would be a move that would be either that good or next to useless, and there would be no in-between. Revali’s Gale, in terms of balancing, is similar enough to Minecraft’s Steve’s jet pack or gliding
I like how you say no to Ascend because it comes from one game, but everyone wanted Revali's Gale in Sash Ultimate, even though in 2018 it also was fro one gae.
@@ShyRanger I think it works because it incorporates the gliding ability link has had for a while now. The ability itself is from one, but the mechanic is fairly well trodden at this point
You say if you mess with Captain falcon too much you'll right but yet you forget that they changed him from the original game with at least three moves
I think they should cut Sheik and replace her with ninja Impa. Sheik's main point in existing is gone with Transform no longer being a thing, it'd allow more variety in character/game representation, and you can actually make a LoZ ninja character whose moveset isn't completely made up.
Eh.... I get what you mean but I disagree. In terms of "Game representation" well, if you want cool ninja Impa I'm assuming they'd have to use her OoT version cause it's one most people know and in basically all her other forms she's old. Yes there's Age of Calamity, but asking Smash to make a full model of a character based on one spin-off sees REALLY weird. So yeah OOT Impa would be picked... and Sheik is mainly from OOT, so that's the same game, no change there. As for character variety, I mean I guess but I doubt anyone would really care. I mean, look at this video. Never do MockRock or Pjiggles hate that there's 3 Links, they hate HOW the three Links are done. I feel like they did the right thing with Sheik (or rather Zelda) and just make them represent different games since they don't need to transform.
@@ShyRanger Age of calamity is a prequel to BOTW not a spinoff game exactly so its not weird to want AOC impa in the game. Also loads of people played Hyrule warriors as well. No matter how you look at it its not weird thinking they could or should add aoc or warriors impa since both are better known from these games than the others for the most part aside from i guess BOTW impa but AOC is impa in her prime before BOTW so yeah not weird at all
@@dave9515 I hate to be that guy, but AOC is actually not a prequel, it follows a different story to the one that was depicted in breath of the wild by adding a time travel premise.
I know this is very unrelated to the video but if there's gonna be a new zelda rep I want it to be Skull kid or Vaati (and it would be extra cool if they design him without the toon art style)
35:19 you could do the dhalsim float and teleport moves. That would be sick if you gave him a projectile then he could shoot > teleport and combo of it.
I mostly agree with you that Midna doesn’t quite deserve to be in Smash, as much as I love her, but Impa is a different story. She’s appeared in more Zelda games than any other minor character and I think would be the most logical choice for a new Zelda rep. She’s usually an old woman but Skyward Sword and the Hyrule Warriors games showed us younger versions with awesome movesets. She fits better than Sheik at this point
36:45 Here’s an idea: we take ganondorfs smash attacks and do a quick transformation into his Ganon form like young links specials, I feel this represents the triforce of power aspect of ganondrof in the most thematically accurate move category I.E smash attacks which are supposed to be a character’s biggest strongest kill moves, and it gives him a stronger connection to young link by both of them having a “transformation” set of moves
@@gastrodonenjoyer999 Ganon being a Falcon clone would be disappointing if Falcon as a one to one translation of F-zero, Caption Falcon in Smash is fast, strong and that's it. So Ganon in Smash is like Falcon in that he reflects the Zelda series from a (symbolic stand point) rather than literal representation. Ganon has the Triforce of Power, so for Smash he has a powerful moveset. However it comes at the cost of everything else!!!!!!! This means that Ganon can't afford to make a mistake, because every attack will leave him vulnerable. He feels less like a character and more like a playable boss to the absolute extreme.
Everyone seems to hate triforce slash final smash but I always loved it because when I was a 10 year old playing brawl I didn't care about accuracy. It just looked really cool.
12:47 Shield Poking/Stabbing should just be cut. More often then not it's janky/inconsistent, it can rob you from getting a Shield-Break. Reduce the Shield HP or Shield Regenation if you need to, the niche novelty is just not worth keeping around anymore.
An idea I always thought was plausible for Toon Link’s final smash was the ballad of gales. Just have him use the Wind Waker for a change and summon a cyclone like he does in Wind Waker. Then have it carry opponents away or otherwise do massive damage to them.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for watching everyone!
PJiggle's original video: ruclips.net/video/wqRZN8XIZo0/видео.html
My Link rework on MockRock: ruclips.net/video/CRzflRd6Ia4/видео.html
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I have to say, from what I’ve seen I think it’s way too early to claim BOTW is influential as it’s only been 6 years. Games take a long time to make so we’ll honestly have to wait a bit longer to see if it’s truly influential to the gaming space.
Keep in mind I love BOTW but to call it influential seems a bit hasty as the only games I have seen that adopted features that seem wholly unique to BOTW are Genshin Impact copying BOTW climbing system. And Ocean Horn 2 which shouldn’t even count as much like the first Ocean Horn the 2nd is just a poor man’s Zelda Game
This is coming from the guy who 100% Ocean Horn 1 cause I hate myself
@@dinoshotgun The only real true influence BOTW can say to have is on Zelda devs. Aonuma said in an interview that he wants any Zelda game he works on in the future to draw from it. Obviously we'll see if he actually means it (or if he was even allowed to), but it at least feels like for Zelda itself BOTW made as big an impression that hasn't been seen on the since, like, OOT I guess.
@@ShyRanger that I fully agree with, it’s just when people say it’s influenced the entire game industry, that’s what I disagree with. It has more than likely influenced the entire Zelda series going forward. I just think people are jumping the gun when saying it has influenced the whole gaming landscape
@@dinoshotgun Just because the majority of the games that took influence from BotW were commercial and/or critical flops that didn't understand the mechanical things they were trying to imitate doesn't mean there's not a lot of examples. People were already trying to half-assedly copy TotK before it even came out. And that's still significant, even if such instances are comparatively a flash in the pan. Like, influence is a much broader thing than the criteria you set.
In fact, only looking at the mechanically unique elements of BotW is actually a fairly shortsighted way to think about it. Far more influential were the more subtle aspects of world design and location flow, which is typically a far more pivotal part of open world game development. A lot of the BotW DNA in Elden Ring is what has made it more multi-replayable than the other SoulsBorne games. People love routing out paths through the game for picking up stuff for different build goals and such. Navigation is a key element of fun, instead of being the thing you do between the fun parts of the game.
Though, I say all this not even being being all that much of a fan of open world games personally. And, obviously, other Zelda games have been even more influential so far in the past. OoT's Z-Targeting is still being used regularly throughout the industry and across many genres, for instance. But, the writing was also on the wall for how influential that was within only a couple years. By contrast, BotW is already a whole console generation old (even if Nintendo is milking every profitable year they can out of the Switch).
@@Shalakor except the thing about routing paths is not unique to BOTW, it didn’t invent that, if anything replayablility and routing paths originated from Rouge Lites and Rouge Likes, not BOTW. Again way to quick to jump the gun there in calling BOTW influential when the only real mechanics unique to BOTW are it’s climbing system (which a few games have replicated) and it’s physics based chemistry system, to say it influenced the way of routing out a path and replayability is just wrong. Heck while I said Rouge Lites invented it, it’s much more likely that the first Legend of Zelda invented it (and of course A Link to the Past refined it) this can be clearly seen as the BOTW devs said that the first Legend of Zelda was a major influence on the making of BOTW
Again I love BOTW and I really hope more games are influenced by it, but as it stands now it’s far to early to say if it’s influenced the games industry as a whole
Babe wake up, MockRockTalk posted another Pjiggles reaction
the the the the the the the
Yes dear...
You’re a Smash Bros. Fan, you don’t have a girlfriend.
Dang Gatorboy your right and you roasted the smash players
Now we just need PJiggles to react to your reimagined Link video and the whole thing can go full circle
Then we need mockeock to react to phiggsle reaction
@@ridgenyan-botxv367 We don't need another Alpharad/PokemonChallenges.
I wouldn't necessarily complain, but...
@@GammaFn. rtgame and pchal did it first
and then they should collab on a much deserved zelda rework concept
Peak capitalism
Good coverage video! It's interesting to see the views of my ideas from someone that has a wildly different approach to potential Smash movesets. Personally I don't care too much about the balance of characters to be honest, so even if Ganondorf getting long big sword slashes for tilts would make him a weak character competitively, it's still something I would be extremely happy with.
Also personally I see a character's specials as moves that really *need* to be direct references to their games, which is why I'm fine with all of Young Link's normals, and why I think just changing him to have the specials I proposed makes him an "amazing" representation of Majora's Mask, even if they kept all his normals the same.
Still a great video though! I'll be checking out your video soon and uploading my thoughts on it to my second channel 😎
100% agree about specials. Standard attacks are meant to be the normal punches, kicks, and slashes, while the whole reason the others are called “specials” is because the moves are both unique references to that character/series and they offer stronger utility than standard attacks.
That's totally fair, I agree that if you're gonna just nail representation anywhere, it definitely needs to be specials. Looking out for it!
Overall I am more than agree with the approach of changing moveset in smash bros between games isn't like they are from FG most of them like with all honesty just I change ganondorf to dirty tactian in a heart beat
@@MockRockTalk The reason Why Sakurai doesn't does't change characters has nothing to do with alienating players, no the real reason is balance. If a character canonically has too much potential Sakurai will simplify the character if it's the easy answer. If a character has no potential then the character must be stronger than their game, Jiggly Puff, Ice Climbers, Caption Falcon, Game and Watch.
For example everyone was asking for Sora in Smash, and when we got him competitive fans had a hard time playing him. This is because Sora is reduced to having only KH 1 moves, one move from Dream Drop Distance and thats it. Why, because if Sora had too many moves from his later games he would be (broken) in Smash.
Moral of the story have low expectations for really powerful characters.
@@theenderkirby Ganon being a Falcon clone would be disappointing if Falcon as a one to one translation of F-zero, Caption Falcon in Smash is fast, strong and that's it. So Ganon in Smash is like Falcon in that he reflects the Zelda series from a (symbolic stand point) rather than literal representation.
Ganon has the Triforce of Power, so for Smash he has a powerful moveset. However it comes at the cost of everything else!!!!!!! This means that Ganon can't afford to make a mistake, because every attack will leave him vulnerable.
He feels less like a character and more like a playable boss to the absolute extreme.
The thing with Toon Link’s new forward smash is that the animation is directly taken from one of his attack animations in Wind Waker, so it actually is a direct reference to one of his source Game moves
Sure...and it still sucks lol
Just because it's a reference doesn't mean it's good
@@RedBoi88 Except isn't like this whole video complaining about Zelda characters not having stuff from their own games. And yet that's from his own game so there you go.
Oh you want something from his game AND it's good. Okay that's fine, just don't act like you only care about the canon of past stuff.
If that's from wind waker then they picked the single worst thing to reference with his moveset.
Considering Wind Waker has easily my favorite sword attack animations in the Zelda franchise and I _still_ didn't realize his forward smash was a reference to them until now... yeah, they probably could've done better.
8:51 You forgot the most important, character-defining change of all:
They made it so he can pick up an arrow he missed, firing two the next time he uses the bow.
Hey that extra item pull's gonna be real useful when Villager and Isabelle pocket your bomb!
That "What the hell is a wizards foot" was so out of nowhere and funny to me. . . And completely correct, I've never thought about how dumb that name is 😂
Wizard's Dropkick is a fabulous name though.
In an alternative universe we’re gonna have falcon foot and wizard kick
i always thought the same thing it sounds so dumb and unintimidating
imagine a wizard trying to kick you and how goofy it'd look
I mean, it is a good thing Ganondorf is not just a wizard, but even if the foot is from a wizard that can brawl, “wizard’s foot” is so indistinct a name that it is bad in principle.
adding to your point at 16:30ish, you could totally make the spear and two-handed swords be specific important weapons from BotW and TotK, like Mipha's Lightscale Trident or Daruk's Boulder Breaker, or any of the many big legacy weapons you earn from old maps.
The most unfaithful part of Ganondorf in Smash is that he’s a heavyweight with some of the hardest hitting moves in the game, but in all his fights in Zelda he does fuck all damage
Honestly, that seems like more of a fail on the Zelda series. He wields the Triforce of Power, let him be powerful.
Someone hasn’t beaten totk /lh
@@alviabtahi5440 That's fair, but in Zelda games he also tends to fly around and move relatively quickly. His slow, heavy demeanor in Smash is a direct result of the devs trying to differentiate him from Captain Falcon.
I honestly can't tell if this comment is a joke or not, and if it is k you can ignore me. But if you're serious with that then your argument is kinda moot.
The reason Ganondorf is "weak" in Zelda games is because they are made by a family company, who wants any 8-year-old to play OoT and have a good chance at winning.
By your logic, King Dedede should also do barely any damage, Bowser should be super telegraphed, and Pikachu should kill Charizard instantly with one or two attacks.
@@ShyRanger to be fair, Bowser is one of the most telegraphed characters in the game and Pikachu with his combos does kill Charizard in a couple interactions. I agree with your point, I just think you picked odd examples
The most messed up part about the Black Shadow thing is that his and Capt. Falcon's in game stats in F-Zero GX actually match their theoretical Smash movesets too.
Black Shadow's Boost is lower than Falcon's (movement speed) and his Body stat is higher (weight, survivability, etc.) So it's even more perfect of an inclusion from that perspective
b shadow's actual top speed is higher though
@@ScLuigi You might be right about that, actually. Still, I don't think it takes away from the idea of making B. Shadow an echo fighter that much. Falcon's always been portrayed as a better racer anyway.
Plus, Boost could just mean Dash speed in this context and the Body stat point still stands.
While yes, Wolf Link is technically "just another Link" I do think that the fact that he would play so completely different to the other Links would more than make up for that. And I just think it would be awesome to see him and Midna in playable form, because man do I love that game
Yeah I didn't really get the "it's just another Link" argument. If I hadn't already played Twilight Princess I would have zero reason to expect that they're the same, or even slightly related characters.
the main problem is that having *4* of what is effectively one character is utterly ridiculous, especially considering the fact that they could be adding a bunch of other characters.
It'd be like complaining that Sheik is "another Zelda" despite having entirely separate movesets.
@@NewCoke7I mean Four Swords exists. I think it’d be a cute half reference to that.
The first remix he played is actually a Brawl remix; it's even used as Link's introduction in the Subspace Emissary, Brawl's adventure mode, and that cutscene was *sick*
22:21 I'd like to make a note against the special transformations for Young Link in PJiggles' favor because the quick transformations create a lot of technical problems as well. If that idea was a thing, Yink 4 player Free For Alls spamming special moves all time with all the particle effects and constant model (and potentially hurt box) shifting might overloud the switch systems and cause the game to slow down or maybe even Crash. I'm more on board with PJiggles' idea of just having Yink were the masks while doing those moves.
I do feel like Young Link can just quickly transform into his other forms when using his powers. Like both Corrin and Kazuya do the same with Corrin even turning into their full dragon form for their up and down throws.
I feel it is not nearly as similar tho. It's only one form and they are mostly the same physically, for corrin it's specific limbs and stuff. IDK if the size and proportion changes are nearly as cohesive or simple. Secondly the throws are static, you can't escape or get hit in a 1 on 1 during them, and the dragon isn't too bad/ YLink should follow the lead of similar setup but different execution to tie them together
I feel like they could have Young Link permanently turn into the other forms after using the specials, and getting a small stat change for each form. Although, that would make up special a bit weird, but that could easily be fixed by removing the special fall on up special or making it a cancellable charge move.
The only full transformations into a totally different body shape are Corrin's throws, wich are uninterruptible due to invincibility and can take their time. Transforming YLink into Deku, Zora or Goron would have to be really fast and, probably, janky. Also, the barrels have the problem of being to big to work as a normal item pull, they would have to behave more like Snake's grenades or Inkling's splatbomb, fundamentally changing a relevant aspect of his gameplay.
maybe just his arms transform?
@@ScLuigi Oh, god. That sounds like nightmare fluel.
I mean if we are going to do something completely different for ganondorf, I think his TOTK interpretation would be pretty sick. Without getting into spoilers hes got great moveset potential and also has 3 great looking designs that would make for really nice alternate costumes
I honestly think that by next game we'll be back to the old formula of the main Triforce trio taking their designs from the latest game rather than each representing a different Zelda title. BOTW and TOTK were unprecedented successes for the series, and Nintendo I'd going to want to push that version of the series as heavily as possible, especially considering that I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to do 60 fps upscaled rereleases of both games on their next console, which will keep their designs relevant even as the next game in the series approaches.
TotK based Ganon would end up being Bylethdorf most likely
for the black shadow idea, i would suggest giving him ganons old smash attacks instead of his sword attacks.
Nah bro just have him punch like ganondorfs smash attacks would be funnier
I mean yeah, no shit lol
No obviously they should give him Cloud’s buster sword use your brain
Frankly, Young and Toon Link could just "keep" a Triforce Slash of sorts but the former does it as the Fierce Deity and the latter ends it with the forehead stab.
Honestly I don't get the Triforce Slash hate that much. I feel like if these characters were done better with everything else EXCEPT Slash, PJiggles wouldn't damn it to hell like he does now. Feels ore like the last straw.
I honestly despise that pjiggles' reasoning for hating triforce slash so much is that it isn't a reference...when not only is ancient arrow (something he praises to high heaven for being a reference) is an infinitely lamer and less cool final smash; but also if they just changed TFS to be fierce deity doing the exact same move, he'd be cheering and saying it's the best thing ever.
not everything needs to be a reference; bc thinking like that is how we had the sonic two flickies meme happen in the first place.
(also; for me at least, triforce slash gets by purely bc of how cool it is)
@@Adambomb2002 I mean, the fact that fierce deity would be the exact same idea yet they still have young link triforce slash is what makes it frustrating. It’s like the single most obvious final smash for any character and they didn’t do it
@@Adambomb2002 I have found Triforce Slash significantly less cool since Brawl, personally. The sword slashing just sounds like splashing water or something now lol.
I do agree that BOTW Link's new FS is lame though despite the reference. I don't see why we can't have it be a reference and look cool at the same time.
@@ShyRangerYeah but its kinda more salt in the wound, like Ganon's smash attacks in Ult being ripped from other characters and using a sword from a tech demo, which I personally would love so much more if it wasn't the ONLY thing they did. The fact it isn't from any games and its the only real thing they added is kinda rubbing it in. Same goes for Triforce Slash though I don't mind it myself, I just think its a bit boring
For Toon Link's final smash, I always thought it would be funny if he used the ballad of gales to summon a cyclone directly onto the stage. It's big, it's it's destructive, he does it, and it could even reuse a lot of its code from the MM moon assist trophy.
Every time MockRock argued that x hypothetical move would be a cool too see, but realistically not fun to play against, I yelled out “That has never stopped the Smash devs before!”.
That awesome Zelda theme remix is from Brawl not Ultimate. In fact it was used in the cutscene that introduced Link in the Subspace Emissary.
The big issue I can think of for Young Link actually transforming is hitboxes. If he transformed, the hitbox would change since Link changes size drastically.
So does pokemon trainer, i don't see the issue
I mean, it's not a big problem for characters like Corrin, Wario, Inkling, or Samus
@@LARAUJO_0A "big" problem you say?
@@creature6715 Unlike Pokemon Trainer, Link with masks would be four characters. Thats a bit harder to pull off.
@@orangeslash1667it's not like you're coming up with new movesets for each of them. I think it's fine
13:56 it’s all a matter of implementation. I would say fighting games are the genre where are stun mechanics are the most fitting, inactionablity is the core of all strategy in fighting games from recovery to hitstun. Gill’s retribution mechanic In sfv is a fun stun based mechanic that would work well in the context of link. There are plenty of well designed stuns in games from a ton of different games.
I can’t wait for the next smash brothers game where they introduce Impa and Vaati, who will have the same move set as Shiek and Zelda
Tbf for Impa it lowkey would make sense
I think it would be Impa and Hilda who would be the new additions with the same moveset but slightly different properties
Finally, the Melee 2.0 we've been waiting for.
@@julienherard414 Zelda not having a Hilda costume still really bugs me. When I first got Smash 4 and didn't see it, I thought "Well that sucks, but maybe LBW came out too late?" Then I got all the music with Yuga's theme and got annoyed again.
And yes it's possible they still didn't have tie for an alt, but that's like the easiest one ever.
@ShyRanger It would have been interesting if they made Hilda like a reverse Zelda in terms of her moveset. I don't know what that would look like, though.
8:01 just because there's very minor cosmetic differences that doesn't mean he's not a clone. That bow attack is practically the same pose, just with toon link's shorter frame. Now if you wanted to show a UNIQUE animation, look at his back throw.
And also the moveset doesn’t have to be thought out. You already know how the specials work together so you wouldn’t have to theory craft new ones.
@@Magic_Ice What does that have to do with what I said?
@@TheRealBatabii it has to do with why having a similar moveset means that development time will be faster even if the animations are different
@@Magic_Ice again that's irrelevant to my comment.
@@TheRealBatabii sorry I re read your comment (I was very tired when I wrote my original) and I understand you mean that just because it’s slightly different doesn’t mean he isn’t a clone and I said that he was a clone because not theory crafting a new moveset would be easier.
Sakurai is a KOF fan, isn't he? Knowing that, it kinda makes sense he would have that view of fighting game characters. SNK characters seem to change a lot between different games, enough so that multiple versions of one person can be multiple playable characters. He probably doesn't want players to have a character crisis or something, since he must've had one at some point.
True but that means making an extra 10 characters in a game with 70 characters in it. That would mean something else in Ultimate would have to suffer.
15:30
Controversial opinion perhaps, but I don't know if I would ever want to see Bayonetta getting further substantial reworks, though that's more on the level of absolutely nailing it the first time, matching the feel of the original game so well that it killed Smash 4.
He probably didn't put THAT much thought into it since it's 80+ characters to go over.
G&W, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Wii Fit, Inkling, Pacman, etc. Those characters aren't in high demand to be notably changed outside of numbers.
Point is, many of which are open to a notable rework in his mind.
Ngl when I saw you both post the same video at the same time I thought it was some massive RUclipsr Collab and I just didn't know any other RUclipsrs doing it
wait this was NINE MONTHS ago?!?!?
39:56 I've been thinking about Master Kohga on this for a long time now. With Age of Calamity existing now, it shows there's plenty of creative things that could be worked into his moveset. He also has a ton of personality with three games under his belt now. Now that Tears of the Kingdom is done and we're moving on to the next Zelda game soon, he might be a bit of a strange pick, but I can totally see how he could work in Smash.
15:15
And the only reason Fox, Captain Falcon, and Marth have this reputation, this "we shouldn't change them because they're iconic" is because their canon games don't give them anything. Their Smash moves don't have any canon moves to get replaced by. Maybe give Fox a new forward smash from Adventures?
26:49 it can just be triforce slash, but without the triforce and with fierce deity.
That's it. Just reskin triforce slash, call it "Fierce Diety rush"(or something) and boom. A generic final smash that doesn't have a direct reference is now an amazing reference to the one time you could go nuts on Majora in Majora's Mask's final boss sequence
It could be like Ike’s final smash or just have it be a transformation final smash where all his sword attacks give you sword beams and do insane damage about 2x as powerful as max aura lucario
35:43 well... Deadman's Volley isn't the end all be all move for Ganondorf if the particular moveset was using his Trident in some way, shape, or form, as that lends itself far more towards him having the Trident Throw instead of the Deadman's Volley (or have both on the same moveset, but then you'd maybe have too many projectile options that overlap on the same kit)
Y'know, stasis actually could have also been a down special, a counter where Link temporary freezes the opponent and then retaliates once, launching the opponent afterwards
what if young link's mask transformations were "charged" versions of his special attacks that you get if you hold the special button for longer? so tapping it does the weaker normal version and holding it gives link time to transform and do the stronger version
One thing I always thought with stasis is incorporating it into Link's grabs. That way it's not a stun mechanic.
That’s so good!
Fun fact! Toon link got his down smash to be more similar to the other links! It used to be a 2 hit move in brawl and S4 but now it sends out, just like young link. Link down smash used to send up too!
I love how ganondorf's specials are named they all sound really menacing and evil, flame choke, warlock punch and dark dive, but then you have wizards foot, whick just sounds so dumb and unfitting
something I've never heard anyone say is moving spin attack to a jab finisher. In most 3D zelda games the spin attack is a quick one time spin. just make it a killing jab finisher. in zelda you can even just move the stick around and press b to do it instantly. sounds pretty jabby to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also: killing jabs can be a very useful tool and something as iconic as the spin attack is allowed to be that useful
Only confusion I'd see with that is, since Spin Attack would still be an AOE of sorts, giving someone an AOE Jab.... like, is that a thing?
Also technically not every Zelda can you move and spin attack, only the 3D Zeldas, but in the 2D ones where the move started you can only do it by charging.
Also don't know if you can ove to do it in BOTW.
@@ShyRanger I'd say the "AOE aspect" just makes it a bit more unique. And especially now in ultimate most jabs are just kind of... the "same". obviously not 100% true but I think its clear what I mean.
And yes in the 2D games you have to charge it but at least I wouldn't let the 2D game inspire much of the sword moves honestly. It just feels more natural to look at the 3D games in for sword moves. Up air and down air based on Zelda II moves work but that's just because of the different perspective the game is played in.
@@ShyRanger No, an AOE jab is not a thing in smash yet. However in the early days of SSF2, one of the cut characters, Blue the hedgehog, might have had part of his jab spin in a circle with his sword and hit both sides. I'm an SSF2 historian hehe
@@PhazerXP the only AOE jab I think technically exists is metaknight. since his slices can hit behind him.
@@MrMariosonicman I remember that from my Brawl days but I think that's not really a thing anymore right? Also that jab was hilariously awful. Funny cause it's on brawl MK
My idea for Wind wakers Link final smash would be is that he whips out the wind waker and does the ballad of gales where a tornado is summoned and carries both Link and the opponent to the great sea where Link is atop the king of red lions alongside Tetra and her crew shooting cannon balls to the enemy fighter on their ship and Link dealing the finishing blow with a mini celebration of him, the king of red lions, and tetra with her crew
Awesome idea
6:25 The thing is that Midna/Wolf Link would kinda just feel like Duck Hunt Duo or Banjo/Kazooie.
I believe when smash 6 comes out, they should cut back the roster (40-50 characters) and focused, mainly on reworking current legacy characters. I think that would be a good way for it to stand out amongst its contemporaries
I'm just not a fan of changing Link's Up B. I personally kind of have a problem with Up B's that are just "The character flies back to the stage" so it always bugs me when people suggest it for Link. But that's just me.
I agree. It turns into a reskin of peach’s, an up special I already find references boring.
I have the same issue--I actually think, contrary to the general pattern of moveset designs throughout Smash, the Up-B designs have gotten less creative over time. The N64 idea of turning Spin Attack into a helicopter aerial makes a lot of sense. Though I'd agree that if there are 3 Links in a game, they don't all need that as their recovery.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there more Up Bs that consist of “spinning your weapon/arms to get back to the stage” than those that are “glide yourself back to the stage”?
@@christiancinnabars1402 What are you thinking of besides DK? There's probably a few more, not many.
@@jonathanlgillBoth samuses, Wario, Sora, mii sword fighter, and Charizard
Honestly, the Young Link up B debacle could.just be solved by having the deku scrub be the up B while not on the stage or in the air, and the spin attack be the up B on the stage.
The devs have done something like that before (whirling fortress).
On the stasis thing, i think it would be cool if stasis was Link's grab. The throws would be him building up the momentum and then releasing it. Wouldn't affect gameplay at all but i just think itd be neat.
I don't think making it a grab would do the ability justice, and it wouldn't be easy to properly showcase the grab range if it just happens like *snap
@@gormottigrebel9978nah I think it can work if you just make a yellow effect showing the grab range when it whiffs
Honestly, stasis could work as a weird long-range command grab but at the cost of it being very committal and like a ray emitting from somewhere.
23:50 Hearing your idea resonates with me more on a rework idea for young link. Also would be cool if they had him wield the gilded sword instead of teh kokiri sword and hold out the mirror shield from MM. Slight touches like these would go a long way. They could even make taunts like one with an ocarina since time is a huge mechanic in MM in many ways.
*looks at TOTK ganon*
"I cant wait for this guy to have captain falcon's moveset in smash 6"
-brent
It’s funny how your main channel video and his video came out the same day
Couple things I wish to see.
Ganondorf to come in both TP and OT skins. I never played OT until the 3DS remake, so I grew up with TP Ganon (other than WW), plus just nostalgic of the silliness that was Sm4sh and Brawl Ganon. I'm not a big fan of giving Ganon a levitation technique, considering he used it once (unless you really want to stretch it and count puppet Zelda), it just happens to be an iconic characteristic in an iconic game. I don't mind the lightning tennis bit. I see it as a down-B move which potentially could be a two-charge move. Uncharged being a simple flick with his arm, a decent get-off-me-tool, a quality where he can flick away weak projectiles like arrows, and reflect stronger ones like charge shot; and the charged move where he sends that projectile. Flame choke is fine (very biased). In Smash 4 they gave him Dark Fists a custom move which was both strong and gives him armour as he ascends.
Adding Impa who I argue is just as important to the Zelda lore, and also like Link and Zelda have different iterations. Retaining the idea of different smash Zelda characters representing different parts of the timelines, what if the SS Impa is the character - not only a character who played a stronger role than other iterations, but its the furthest we've seen some extent of her abilities outside of spinoffs, as well as representing SS's 'importance' (subjectively) in the timeline. It is Sheik syndrome who rarely does much in the game, but plays her harp and vanishes.
33:30
Ganon has had Flame Choke since Melee, which was before Twilight Princess was even revealed. Flame Choke is either Ganon choking you out then exploding you into the ground or grabbing you by the face and dive bombing you into the floor, what you keep referring to as Flame Choke isn't even a choke, it's Ganon punching one of the sage's in the face and blowing them up, which is a better loose reference for Warlock Punch if anything.
Flame Choke was introduced in Brawl. Melee Ganon's sideB (Gerudo Dragon) was a more direct copy of Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost. Brawl went out of its way to de-clone a lot of moves and animations.
@@Evello37 I'm noticing a pattern of if a character has too much potential Sakurai will reduce the character for balance. Now Ganondorf using physical attacks is not out of character, in OOT he punched the ground so that floor tiles would fall of. It's like Sakurai said, (ok I'm going use that big punch moment and reduce him to just that, because a one to one translation would be too hard to balance).
I wish young link was a good character
btw 39:40 this song was in brawl, it even played in one of the subspace cutscenes lol
Noted, I added it to a card, thanks!
I'll put what I put on Pjiggles video here for Young Link's final smash. He'd transform into Fierce Deity link then fire one of this sword beams that would travel across the stage launching everyone hit by it up into the Majora's Mask moon before he slices it in half dealing damage and hopefully taking a stock from whoever was caught up in it.
What if Ganon's float was a zair? It would allow him to still have Omni directional floats, instead of a Peach float. And allowing it to cancel into both regular attacks and specials would be easier than making it an up or neutral special.
The fact that Young Link doesn't at least transform into the Fierce Deity while performing Triforce Slash is criminal. Also, the only idea I've got for a "new" FS for Toon Link would be to copy either Captain Falcon's or Pit's, just instead of the Blue Falcon or Lightning Chariot he runs his opponent down with the Spirit Train. Come on, Toon Link running over his opponent with a train would be hilarious. I know the common counter point to that would be "it would be awkward if you're playing on the Spirit Train stage." to which I say, who cares? Landing Robin's FS while fighting Chrom results in Chrom beating the shit out of himself so I really don't think it's a big deal.
Seeing Ganondorf have a worse idle animation than Captain Falcon really hammers in how misrepresented he is in Smash. He doesn't feel like one of gaming's most famous and iconic villains. He almost feels like a forgotten Street Fighter character. So bizarre.
The only majoras mask song is the termina field theme which is literally the main Zelda theme
15:30
I still would love a video on this channel (or the main one, if you're feeling ambitious) about your top 10 characters you'd want reworked the most. I wanna know how you'd change them up.
There is no universe in which ascend makes more sense for line's up b than revali's gale
The Zora boomerangs should use Guile's Sonic Boom animation from Street Fighter because pun.
Imagine the fierce deity final smash being tri-force slash, but as the fierce deity.
39:36 this is not an ultimate remix. Ultimate remixes have the purple triangle in the corner while this one has the blue triangle, signifying that it is a remix from an older smash game.
It’s still a remix
You seem to be conflating “unfun” with poorly designed a lot. A move or a character doesn’t have to be fun to fight to be well made if that were the case there would be no such thing as: rushdown, grapplers, zoners
The point of extreme archetypes is to be overwhelming when in their win condition this is necessarily supposed to induce negative feelings in the other player. A grappler that can’t induce fear is impotent in the same way that a zoner relies on frustration. That’s the double edge sword of multi player games.
I really like your commentary and your moveset ideas, they are really well thought-out. I wonder what moveset you'd give to Crash Bandicoot (& maybe Coco as an echo fighter), Professor Layton, Waluigi, Spyro and Eggman, the top 5 characters in my wishlist for the next Smash. It's a stretch and it's unlikely that you'll answer this question, but, as we say in Italian, asking is valid, answering is courteous
For Ganondorf's down-special, I'd personally say have it work like a counter/reflector move.
It can reflect projectiles, but when he counters a melee hit he stuns the enemy and delivers the warlock punch, to keep something other than flame choke in his specials
You should do another remake video for Ganondorf in like a few months so TOTK representation can be in and not be a spoiler anymore
Imagine if in the next smash game ganondorf gets an appearance based on his totk version but keeps the exact same moveset.
31:23
Dude and if this was specific for ganondorf as well to be exactly like this, arms out, sword(s) in his hand(s)…
What a cool idea
So I was on the right track; it wasn't a collab, but you two were chewing the fat together about having the same video idea in the works at the same time. That's pretty cool. I hope PJiggles likes your video too
The only newcomer from Zelda franchise i will fell appropriate is Master Kohga, from botw and totk i feel is important enough, and anyone that play those games know about the Clan Yiga. He probably get cool ninja like moves and really funny chaotic, dumb attacks to represent the how the Yiga fight but showing his personality
I’m pretty sure impa is the most appropriate for smash, she appeared in a lot of games both a fighter and just a guide in the games
Here’s a final smash idea for toon link ahem the attack will start with win using the phantom hourglass to freeze anyone in front of him if he can manage to catch someone his train will appear and hit them then a cutscene plays were the opponent is on a train track and they can’t move thanks to toon links phantom hourglass toon link apear on his train full speed ahead Choo Choo his train starts firing cannon shots and yes it has cannons because he is a bad#$# he then runs them over doing big damage and ending the cutscene
The Molduga cutscene could be a cool Ganon final smash
My main gripe with Link is that BOTW link should of been his own character, (at least a semiclone) so they could get a bit more experimental with him and Twilight Princess Link gets to stay.
Also Thank you for defending Boomerang and flame choke.
I think that's too many links, it's better to just change with the main game imo
@@illford Nah, 4 links are fine.
@@waffleman8053 idk man people already complain with 3. Along with how much stuff is in ultimate they would have to lower the quality of something else to add in another character, even if that character is mostly a clone.
Honestly, a solution I could see is that BOTW Link and Wind Waker Link will stay, as they feel the most unique in playing. Young Link and Twilight Princess Link will not return.
@@iantaakalla8180is ultimate so no cuts
Yep. I'm watching the pjiggles video after this...
The best Project M mod I've ever played was called Triforce Ganon, which was based off of the timeline where he wins and gets the full Triforce, and his taunts switched him between Wisdom Mode (Magic Moveset), Courage Mode (Sword Moveset) and Power Mode (Traditional Ganondorf Moveset)
They should’ve made ganondorf like Wolf but a heavy; Some swordiness blended with magic shots
“Maybe they wanted to avoid spoilers.”
Shulk’s final smash destroys that argument.
I was inspired by PJiggles's video to draw up a few things for a Ganondorf rework (I made him dual-wield his swords from Ultimate to emphasize his sheer strength at using those things) and tried to do my own version of floating, but then I realized I could reuse my Dead Man's Volley drawings as a Float by combining the two moves. Thus have Up B make him float in any direction you want but trying to use specials just throws out an energy ball slow enough for Ganondorf to capitalize, and make his aerials cancel it. Also made Down-B a Trident Throw inspired by MK9 Shao Kahn because I wanted him to feel like a boss enemy.
For Young Link, I would have preferred for the smash attacks to be the transformations.
Down Smash = Goron bounce
Side smash = Zora backflip
Up smash = Deku launch from flower without flying
A spear character sounds interesting.
Could be ranged like a javelin with long reach, or half-staffed for a “short reach but covers all angles” style.
15:10 I do agree with this point, but I also would like to add Jigglypuff and to some extent Ness to the list. I would be ok with ness getting reworked as long as he kept some key moves. Pk fire and pk thunder are non negotiable for me.
Ness, for better or worse, is a unique archetype. Under representation alone, Ness’s kit stays. However, if you were looking for the original 12 that have effective and iconic sets, Ness would need to be overhauled so completely he would not be the same character. Ness is just awkward enough that anything remotely resembling how he plays is middling at best in a final game meta.
@@iantaakalla8180 If ness were to get overhauled, I would suggest changing some of Lucas' special's properties. Like making Lucas' pk fire more like ness', so that ness has creative freedom.
@@greenfroggy333 I feel like changing Ness and Lucas would be too difficult because the Mother series ended, so there's not much to work with.
31:25 here a question about the toon link final smash case why not just let him use the phantom hourglass to freeze time yeah I know I go with the jojo reference and bayonetta have somewhat similar one but like c'mon is still a super move that this link using it the wind waker link that is toon link in smash is also the link of phantom hourglass and I don't say is unbalaced is a final smash
I am beyond honored that my comment was one of those featured in the beginning scrollby
3:39 I main Ibuki in sf and that is almost exactly what happened to her in the fifth game.
Even after hundreds of comments I still don't think MockRock realizes that he and PJiggles uploaded the same video on the same day like woah man that's insane
15:33 After a bit of thought, yeah I agree. I feel like the only characters I would not change a single move of from the OG 12 are Ness, Fox and Falcon. Other than that, we can tweek the rest. Not even like total overhauls, just 1 or two move changes for some. For example, get rid of Jigglypuff's Rollout and give her Disarming Voice as a Neutral Special. Simple, harmless change that represents her better and gets rid of a move literally no one wants on her.
Tbh the only ones I would say need a total overhaul is Samus and Luigi. The others need some stuff but they are mostly good.
Toon Link's final smash should be the phantom hourglass.
Personally, I think Revali's Gale is the better series representation than Ascend. Ascend would be a fun gimmick, but ultimately it comes from one game. Revali's Gale, and the paraglider it comes with, represent the last 3 zelda games, all of which had a focus on flying and gliding in some form. Giving a move that incorporates that feels like a good way to represent more of the series
Also, Ascend would be a broken move because if it is faithful, you would get to recover for free when underneath the main platform. It would be a move that would be either that good or next to useless, and there would be no in-between. Revali’s Gale, in terms of balancing, is similar enough to Minecraft’s Steve’s jet pack or gliding
I like how you say no to Ascend because it comes from one game, but everyone wanted Revali's Gale in Sash Ultimate, even though in 2018 it also was fro one gae.
@@ShyRanger I think it works because it incorporates the gliding ability link has had for a while now. The ability itself is from one, but the mechanic is fairly well trodden at this point
You say if you mess with Captain falcon too much you'll right but yet you forget that they changed him from the original game with at least three moves
I think they should cut Sheik and replace her with ninja Impa. Sheik's main point in existing is gone with Transform no longer being a thing, it'd allow more variety in character/game representation, and you can actually make a LoZ ninja character whose moveset isn't completely made up.
Eh.... I get what you mean but I disagree.
In terms of "Game representation" well, if you want cool ninja Impa I'm assuming they'd have to use her OoT version cause it's one most people know and in basically all her other forms she's old. Yes there's Age of Calamity, but asking Smash to make a full model of a character based on one spin-off sees REALLY weird.
So yeah OOT Impa would be picked... and Sheik is mainly from OOT, so that's the same game, no change there.
As for character variety, I mean I guess but I doubt anyone would really care. I mean, look at this video. Never do MockRock or Pjiggles hate that there's 3 Links, they hate HOW the three Links are done.
I feel like they did the right thing with Sheik (or rather Zelda) and just make them represent different games since they don't need to transform.
@@ShyRanger Age of calamity is a prequel to BOTW not a spinoff game exactly so its not weird to want AOC impa in the game. Also loads of people played Hyrule warriors as well. No matter how you look at it its not weird thinking they could or should add aoc or warriors impa since both are better known from these games than the others for the most part aside from i guess BOTW impa but AOC is impa in her prime before BOTW so yeah not weird at all
@@dave9515 I hate to be that guy, but AOC is actually not a prequel, it follows a different story to the one that was depicted in breath of the wild by adding a time travel premise.
They could just use her hyrule warriors definitive edition appearance it has the most moveset potential
I know this is very unrelated to the video but if there's gonna be a new zelda rep I want it to be Skull kid or Vaati (and it would be extra cool if they design him without the toon art style)
Wow, that's so crazy! did you know that PJiggles also uploaded a Zelda video the same day you did?
aww man, I didn't know about Black Shadow, and now I'm so so pissed that there's no chance of it happening.
35:19 you could do the dhalsim float and teleport moves. That would be sick if you gave him a projectile then he could shoot > teleport and combo of it.
I mostly agree with you that Midna doesn’t quite deserve to be in Smash, as much as I love her, but Impa is a different story. She’s appeared in more Zelda games than any other minor character and I think would be the most logical choice for a new Zelda rep. She’s usually an old woman but Skyward Sword and the Hyrule Warriors games showed us younger versions with awesome movesets. She fits better than Sheik at this point
What the hell is a wizard's foot?" Is my new forced meme of the week
36:45
Here’s an idea: we take ganondorfs smash attacks and do a quick transformation into his Ganon form like young links specials, I feel this represents the triforce of power aspect of ganondrof in the most thematically accurate move category I.E smash attacks which are supposed to be a character’s biggest strongest kill moves, and it gives him a stronger connection to young link by both of them having a “transformation” set of moves
But here’s the problem ganon is too big to make it happen
@@NormalGuy985 the Legend of zelda 1987 version could work , but you raise a good point
@@gastrodonenjoyer999 Ganon being a Falcon clone would be disappointing if Falcon as a one to one translation of F-zero, Caption Falcon in Smash is fast, strong and that's it. So Ganon in Smash is like Falcon in that he reflects the Zelda series from a (symbolic stand point) rather than literal representation.
Ganon has the Triforce of Power, so for Smash he has a powerful moveset. However it comes at the cost of everything else!!!!!!! This means that Ganon can't afford to make a mistake, because every attack will leave him vulnerable.
He feels less like a character and more like a playable boss to the absolute extreme.
People talking about the similarities between PJiggles and MockRock, meanwhile I am here thinking how MockRock looks like a nice version of Marss
Everyone seems to hate triforce slash final smash but I always loved it because when I was a 10 year old playing brawl I didn't care about accuracy. It just looked really cool.
12:47
Shield Poking/Stabbing should just be cut.
More often then not it's janky/inconsistent, it can rob you from getting a Shield-Break.
Reduce the Shield HP or Shield Regenation if you need to, the niche novelty is just not worth keeping around anymore.
An idea I always thought was plausible for Toon Link’s final smash was the ballad of gales. Just have him use the Wind Waker for a change and summon a cyclone like he does in Wind Waker. Then have it carry opponents away or otherwise do massive damage to them.
Turn young Link into MM Link with transform ability and you have Shulk 2.0. Do we really want that?
Yes we do, we don’t care about balancing just coolness representation
@@orangeslash1667 You sure? Because Sora being able to do ladder combos is not balancing