The Deck That Is Impossible to Play Correctly | We Try the Judge Tower with
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Judge tower is a format where you place a giant pile of the most complicated cards in the middle of the table and hope to be the last to break the rules.
Will we even make it past a turn cycle?
Find the decklist to the Tower here along with the rules here: bit.ly/48w5Z6P
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🗼Find the decklist to the Tower here along with the rules here: bit.ly/48w5Z6P
Carl should have died on 3:21 though ;-)
@maartenverbeek134 you only die in judge tower if someone calls you out ;)
@maartenverbeek134 but also, I don't think there was anything that would cost me the game there 🤔
@@CardmarketMagic your thought scour was in the graveyard before you finished resolving it (draw)
@maartenverbeek134 oh that's not a rules infraction unless someone declares that it's in the graveyard. In competitive magic it's very common for players to put their spells/fetch-lands directly into their graveyards to denote casting playing them
Something to note, the biggest rule of Judge Tower: It’s not a loss if nobody notices it is. It’s complicated for a reason, and we can’t expect them to be perfect.
Yup! A lot of comments forget that players are only eliminated if another player actually calls out a rules violation. If none of the other players catch it, then you can slip by.
Carl absolutely deserved his damage win. If a player wins with damage in judge tower, they were also keeping track of a critical mass of confusing permanents at the time. Kenobi even destroyed his own creatures to decrease his complexity.
He managed to play his way through that confusing mass of triggers perfectly, absolutely he deserved that.
Shouldn't he have been buzzed for not activating the Tattermurge during everyone's upkeep though? It was really bothering me in round 2?
@@calebsayles1:49. They explain this exact phenomenon.
@@calebsaylesNobody called him on it.
If you dont judge call someone for their mistakes in judge tower, youre the one responsible.
@@calebsayles *Buzz*
It's not "shouldn't he have been", it's "Could've been". There's no rule stating that a player must buzz when there's literally any rules violation. This isn't some sort of "Video challenge" or anything, it's a tabletop game using magic cards.
A player MAY buzz when they spot another player violating a MTG rule, or one of the additional judge tower rules. If they are correct on their call, THEN that player is eliminated. If they are incorrect on their call, then the buzzer is eliminated.
Another human has to be in that moment (with no pausing because pausing doesn't exist IRL) and actually notice a rules violation.
Fun fact, when someone dies on their turn, you actually continue through their turn so that end of turn effects and such happen. So norin actually WOULD come back in Vince's end step.
Is this a judge tower thing or multiplayer magic? Cause this would change the outcome of some commander games
@GrayVMhan It's a Magic thing
Is that Judge Tower specific? Because part of the process of players losing the game is that all their triggers and cards are removed from the game. Is Norin not counted as a delayed trigger and thus, ceases to exist?
@@DemonBlankaNorin isn’t Vince’s trigger though
When a player leaves, all of THAT PLAYER's effects go. Norin's controller wasn't the one who left.
Never stop bringing the best content, I watch so much cardmarket content that when I shop for cards I search for it by mistake, mixing it up with card kingdom. The great pond separates us. 😢
Thank you for the kind words :) hopefully one day we'll cross that pond!
19:40 JUDGE! Drawing for turn happens right at the start of the draw step, as a turn-based action that doesn't use the stack. Only after drawing for turn does the active player get priority and triggered abilities, such as those triggering at the beginning of the draw step, get put on the stack. (The same mistake happens again the following turn.)
A lot of people believe "At the beginning of your draw step" means before they draw their card for the turn. I played Magic for over 10 years before it was made clear to me that it works the way you said.
was looking for that comment. I played too many Sylvan Libraries in my life and it has the same wording for its trigger.
This was changed in 8th edition so anyone making the mistake might have missed that rules change. Before 8th edition drawing a card for turn used the stack and any triggers would be placed on top of it on that stack.
I knew about this one because my brother plays Teferi's Puzzle Box in his Queza Auger of Agonies Commander deck. I hate that card so much, especially when he has Teferi's Ageless Insight out as well...
We once tried our version of the Judge Tower to demonstrate our knowledge of the rules to a watching newbie. The first player proceeded to play a Humility then we promptly soiled ourselves.
21:30 After the first Wildest Dreams resolves but before the second fizzles Carl should have cast his instants in hand.
Also, shouldn't he have been forced to target 5 different cards? If you may becomes you must then meletis charlatan says "you must choose new targets for the copy"
I am actually really curious about this, as what do you do if there are not any alternate valid targets? Are you unable to activate meletis?
@@chargingbadger867I’m pretty sure as long as you cast it it’s fine. I think the “you must” was more in reference to kickers and such. While they were on the stack technically the targets were valid for both, but after the first one resolved the second one couldn’t target them anymore as they were no longer there so it fizzled
He must choose new targets but as part of the action of choosing new targets you may leave any targets unchanged. It's confusing in plain English but that's how it works in Magiceze. In fact since you may leave any targets unchanged a very literal interpretation of Judge Tower would mean that when you may choose new targets you must choose new targets and since as part of that you may leave targets unchanged you must leave targets unchanged.
and I think they put in in the graveyard
Pretty crazy that a judge's tower video comes out when yesterday I was rewatching the old one hoping for a new judge's tower video.
You made this happen!
Thanks for making this happen, patoudude
It's interesting to see another variant on Judges Tower rules!
Here's what I'm used to playing with:
- All players have infinite life and infinite mana, the only way to lose is a rules infraction.
- All players share the same library, but graveyards and exiles are separate. (relevant for Flashback and other mechanics like it)
- At the end of a round (after only one person remains), all graveyards are exiled and the new round starts (becomes relevant for cards like Squee)
- X is 5.
- If you may, you must.
- If a card has multiple abilities, you activate as many as you can, starting from the last and working back up to the first.
- Each ability you can legally activate (keeping in mind the previous rule) must be activated exactly once per turn . If a card gets flickered by its own ability, it counts as a new card, but the activated ability flickering it counts as activated for the turn
- If you manage to create a non-optional infinite loop, you win
- Last player standing wins
- Any player, not just the ones still in the game may call out rules infractions (this makes it go faster in general)
- Your starting hand size is determined by your judge level.
- Highest judge level at the table begins, ties are broken by dice rolls
- If nobody calls out the rules infraction by the next time priority has passed around the table, you can no longer lose the game for it
- "Shortcutting", i.e. skipping steps and phases of the turn implicitly, is allowed, as long as no other player wants to interact with a given phase.
- All creatures that can attack, must attack. All creatures that can block, must (this is essentially an extension of "if you may, you must")
I think that's all of them. If I missed any, I'll add them once I remember.
Glad to see more attention brought to my favourite way to fry my brain!
At 20:30
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!
- Phasing happens during the untap step, not upkeep. Vince has been playing long enough, he should be aware of that one. ;)
Did you hear me hesitate because I wasn't sure? Listen back to it - you can hear it in my voice. :(
@@PleasantKenobi Yeah, mind you phasing is weird anyways. It's the only thing you can do on untap other than, well, untap. Also would have expected Thoralf to get it but he was already knocked out IIRC.
Love seeing you join CardMarket - or anyone else for that matter
Didn't Carl also attack with the phased out creature?
@@Sladeking713 nope, it's next to the enchantments during the attack step.
Fun fact: phasing is the first thing to happen in the untap step, followed by day/night changing, THEN untap permanents.
20:40 judge! phasing is in the untap step!
YES! I CAUGHT THAT ONE TOO
That intro was absolutely incredibly clever, teaching us the rules of the way it works while also being good for engagement
The 100 gecs shirt is perfect for this chaotic episode
Judge Tower again!!! Excellent!!
There's something about Judge tower that makes it the best ! Like you always hate that rules lawyer friend during casual magic but in a game where you all have to be rules lawyers it's great! Surprised I haven't seen more games of these with other MTG icons or RUclipsrs. Glad you at least did a second! Keep up the good work Cardmarket!
People hate the Rule Lawyer until the game becomes a mess of rulings
With the 2nd Wildest Dreams copy on the stack, Carl should've cast all the instants returned to his hand. JUDGE!
Indeed. 21:32 - Missed opportunity by PK.
9:06 JUDGE!!!! (the turn should have continued without an active player. The turn wouldn't simply end)
5:17 Jamin would lose right? He didn't target the Cyclops with the Vanish into Memory with Atlas on the stack.
Also at 8:56 When a turn ends, the active player's cards/effects leave the stack and the stack concludes, the turn then ends and passes on.
Creatures can't be the target of spells at this point. See Carl's enchantment.
@@tomdegroot1133he played cyclops, atlas, then the enchantment in that order
@@tomdegroot1133 He cast the enchantment after.
The card viewer on the side was incorrect. Jamin only had Norin and the Heartwood Storyteller in hand until his draw step when he drew the Vanish.
Carl here, All three of us started a secret side channel 🤫 click my icon if you want to see us play Clue, but with a Velociraptor loose in the Mansion
Fun fact: At 20:38 when Carl draws from Heightened Awareness prior to drawing for turn, that is incorrect (though inconsequential obviously). During the draw step, the active player draws their card for turn first, and only afterwards do any 'beginning of draw step' triggers go on the stack. You *always* draw your card for turn before anything else in the draw step, the draw happens immediately upon the end of the upkeep with no opportunity for any priority or any triggers (not applicable in cases when you are skipping your draw ofc).
Imagine going through a hidden pyramid avoid terrible Traps that are life threatening, but in the final room that is just papyrus scroll racks through the whole room you see three mummies around a table with a stack of papyrus cards in the middle.
"Do we go to damage?"
*Carl checks graveyard* ".... yes"
The win by damage was amazing. Absolutely deserved the win.
What a fun game that nobody would ever want to play with me.
8:51 BUZZ! Jamin is out. The turn doesn't just end if someone is eliminated. The rest of the phases still happen, the eliminated player just gets skipped. Norin should still come back.
> 800.4i If a player leaves the game during their turn, that turn continues to its completion without an active player. If the active player would receive priority, instead the next player in turn order receives priority, or the top object on the stack resolves, or the phase or step ends, whichever is appropriate.
The Judge's Tower one of my friends built had a couple basic lands in there just to add the "Gotcha" of being able to float mana during the untap step
Game #2, when a trigger is at the begening of a draw step. You draw before the trigger happens. Plus, Flashback was not used to cast the final spell. Seems like a really fun minigame!
That is the correct way to play for the draw step example. The turn based action of drawing a card happens first, then the draw step trigger occurs
I absolutely love this format! Perfect for guest appearances.
20:38 At the beginning of each phase and each step, you first perform actions determined by the game engine and only then receive priority to add abilities to the stack and cast spells. At the beginning of the draw step, you must first draw a card for the turn and only then draw a card for the enchantment ability under Carl's control.
This format makes me understand how dumb I am.... I think? 😢
Yay, more judge tower! 😄
Was Thoralf’s mistake at the very beginning a scripted loss? He’s usually so meticulous and the same exact thing happened to Carl during the previous video. If that was real it was certainly unexpected!
Edit: I wrote this comment before finishing the practice round. It’s now clear it was scripted. Thank you.
21:20 JUDGE! Meletas charlatan states that you may choose new targets for the copy, thus Carl should have chosen different targets for the copy of wildest dreams.
This is so good!! I want to play and fail miserably… For anyone interested, “at the beginning of your draw step” effects happen after you draw for turn.
JUDGE!!! At 21:25, Carl chose the same targets for Wildest Dreams, despite Meletis Charlatan allowing him to choose new targets. Since you must do all "may" actions in Judge Tower, that is a rules violation.
Is it? I'm pretty sure you can say that you are choosing a new target, which is the same target as before (i.e. "changing the target" from the previous to itself). I interpreted Carl targeting the same spells as doing just that, since he did specify his targets, as if he intended to "change" them in this way.
This was so fun, i'd totally enjoy watching other similar videos !
Yes i absolutely loved when you played judge tower first time and i couldn't find any other good videos like that one. Thanks for another one
23:31 Vince missed that Carl had to cast Silent Departure with its flashback cost to bounce one of his own creatures. Could have won there!
I believe that is under their cycle rule where they only need to cast the spell once in a full round of turns. Otherwise most of the flashback cards would just end up being played back to back and won't need to be remembered.
I starting building one after your first Judge Tower video, and have slowly been getting people at my LGS to play it during commander nights. Happy to see it come back on the channel.
im loving this new set of "watch Vince dunk on the cardmarket crew for x time" trend of videos xD
Oh yes, judge tower! I learned about it from your first video and since then it became my favourite format!
PK's gecs shirt threw me for a loop lmao
Oh yeah, more Judge Tower! Now with the big red button! Love it.
Ray of revelation is actually Carl’s card so technically Carl lost congratulations Jamin you won the game 32:42
At 6:10, since there's a Yawgmoth's Agenda and everyone shares the same graveyard, shouldn't the milled cards be exiled ?
[buzzer]6:23 shared graveyards. Thoralf put the 2 cards into graveyard off of thoughtscour.
8:58 JUDGE! Norin should return there is still an end step according to rule 800.4j
If i remember correctly phasing in and out actually happens at the beginning of the untap step and not at the beginning of upkeep
It's a clever format, but even better, the tower contains very clever cards for it. So much suspense!
pleasant kenobi wearing a 100 gecs shirt is absolutely wild to me
I'd love to see you make Judge's Tower a reoccurring feature on the channel. It's always fun trying to follow along with all the rules interactions
Finally, more Judge Tower.
Always lick on judge tower.
No spelling mistakes, I've made my choice.
Also, Waterspout Elemental strongly resembles PleasantKenobi
It does! It's from universes beyond pleasant kenobi. He'll love that 😅
Today I gas a really bad day, but your videos Always help me smile. Thank you for making my day ❤ also the First video with the judge tower is one of my favorite really Happy to watch another One ❤
I'm sorry to hear that today hasn't been so good. I'll be thrilled if our silly games help with it even a little :)
I was thinking only yesterday that I hope CardMarket would return to Judge Tower! How fun!
That intro had me rolling. Been a rough week, this was a great surprise. I love Judge Tower.
It is interesting to notice how the Judge Tower rules change between pods playing it. Previously I heard about X=3, infinite life, or the activated ability restriction being once per turn instead of per turn cycle.
This was so brilliant, guys. Great banter, great format, and a great guest in Vince :) Hopefully you guys were able to get a couple more videos in with him before he had to fly back!
Love it so much. Judge tower seems like a blast to play, uh, in an altered state of mind
23:23 Vince was able to win right on start of combat phase, as Carl has to cast Silent Departure flashback on his own creature before going to combat. I'm surprised no one had caught this as it was right on the top of the graveyard. Or am I missing some rulings?
You can only play/activate a card once per turn cycle 👍 it would have been up to Vince to play it next turn if he had survived
@@CardmarketMagic Oh, thanks for clarification, I thought it only applies to activated abilities.
Yes, Judge Tower! I love watching this format so much and I always learn something new. I also get the impression that Carl had a lot of fun putting company expanses like Big Red Button and Red Light Lamp onto the list. Live your best life, its fun to watch :)
Excited to see judge tower make its comeback, I always love when you guys play wacky formats.
Carl not resolving the draw triggers correctly was such a great opportunity for the others to win.
I love the judge tower videos. Great to so PK guest starring too!
Loved the last judge tower video and this one was even better!
Love the judge tower content! Its such an interesting form of playing magic.
Y'all have no idea how many times I've watched your original Judge Tower vid, I've been blessed
Love the Judge's Tower content
This was fantastic as always! Loved that damage win, wild for Judge Tower!
Man, I love judge tower and this channel! The variety, humour and culture mix you bring is honestly unparalleled
Thank you :D that's so kind of you to say!
I think Karl would have lost at 23:40 that artifact destruction spells says the next turn not your next turn so he would have missed the draw step. If Vince caught it. He was out
There was no next draw step though so he had nothing to miss
I adore judge tower, I could watch the videos endlessly
I'm ecstatic that y'all did another one of these. Keep em coming
Judge! 20:45 - actually you first draw for turn. The first thing that happens in the draw step is that the active player draws a card, aka "draws for turn". So if e.g. someone has a Kami of the Crescent Moon in play, players could respond in the draw step before the active player draws their second card, but not before the first. From the comprehensive rules:
504. Draw Step
504.1. First, the active player draws a card. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack.
504.2. Second, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other abilities that
have triggered go on the stack.
504.3. Third, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.
Live error capture just like the last video. Here we go:
8:58 -- Norin does come back. Jamin should lose here for his incorrect assertion.
9:34 -- Thoralf casts Reaping the Graves. Jamin controls Heartwood Storyteller at this time. Neither Jamin or Carl draw cards to the trigger prior to the resolution of Reaping the Graves, thus they both should instantly lose here. It's not Thoralf's card to call the triggers on, it is Carl and Jamin's responsibility to remember that the trigger exists and gives them the option. Unfortunately for Thoralf, he puts Reaping the Graves into the GY and violates Yawgmoth's Agenda which could have been called. (Oh, I hit play and Vince calls it. Good job Vince. Then Jamin notices this gaf post-facto. Looks like the crew is getting sharper!)
24:10 -- Huge props to Carl for keeping all that straight. He even remembered the Tauttermunge Witch's activated ability on the correct moment! Well done! I do wonder whether or not Vince prompting Carl to declare his targets as part of legally casting the spell prior to copying it with the Meletis Charlatan should count as pointing out a game error and thus cost Carl this game. I'll let someone else in the comments, or CardMarket themselves, clarify how that should have gone.
28:55 -- Thoralf, noooooooooo! It's a replacement effect because regenerate can't pull a creature from the yard! (The loading screen humor was excellent. Glad to see that even the crew was stumped and needed an external reference)
31:04 -- Carl butchers the pronounciation of Nihilith (Think Nihilist but like Mike Tyson said it). While this isn't strictly a game error, it was egregious enough that I had to point it out.
32:30 -- Ooof. Forgot the Ray in the Yard. That's the end, and Carl wins it (Good job Carl! You really leveled up from the last Tower! Oh and you caught it too making it doubly deserved!)
Props to the crew for this one, the gameplay was significantly tighter than the previous Judge Tower video and was highly enjoyable to watch.
Wait, for the final showdown: Technically speaking, Nihilith says "opponent's graveyard" - now is it an opponent's graveyard, or is it your own graveyard, or is it considered both at the same time, if it's used by everyone. What if I have Nihilith on the field, and play a Instant for example, and it goes to the graveyard? Does it go to MY graveyard, or to an OPPONENT'S graveyard, since we share a graveyard - and in consequence, does it remove a counter or not? :D
@ minute 9. Norin's errata says "at the beginning of the next end step." which would be in Thoralf's end step
In Florida, we play Judge Tower slightly differently: Each player's starting & maximum hand size is equal to their judge level, you process abilities of each source from the bottom up, and you lose by amassing three shame points (i.e. breaking the rules thrice). True to the term, you must also point out a rule violation by saying, -Shame.
23:41 JUDGE! Before moving to combat step, Carl needed to cast the sorcery speed card with flashback in the communal graveyard. Flashback is a May, which means it's a Must. If only PleasantKenobi caught that, he would have won that round. XD
19:41 you would draw the card for turn before the card from heightened awareness.
19:40 When he drew a card "at the beginning of his draw step", he should have drawn his card for turn first. Right? Because drawing for turn is a turn-based action that happens before any triggers are put on the stack. I learned this from someone's video about their Legacy Pox deck that runs Anvil of Bogardan with Chains of Mephistopheles (ruclips.net/video/1vfDHKGLTeA/видео.htmlsi=Bx0LBGwIr5FPia1j&t=173)
question:
If Yawgmoth's Agenda says "If a card would be put into your [Thoralf's] graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead," and Thoralf shares a graveyard with everyone, then does that mean all of everyone's cards should go into exile instead of the graveyard?
21:00 spells fizzle when they try to resolve but have no valid targets. The copy resolves. Before the original resolves/fizzles, you should have kept priority and responded with all the instants returned to the hand.
However, I'm not sure if they are then returned after the original resolves finally. Or if the cards count as different cards. Probably? Same as blinking, right?
Really fun showcase! Love seeing judge tower played
So questions that I wasn't sure of and wanted to see if I was crazy.
1: When Toralf had the flyer that could tap down other fliers, shouldn't he have to do that on every turn not just his own?
2: When Jamin had the creature that needed to be paid 2 mana to make it not regenerate this turn, why didn't all opponents have to do that every turn but only on his?
Not sure if I'm just missing something.
If you want to try this at home, just use a commander deck. (Then remove the commander)
If you do, add the rule that all all cards that only have mana abilities (so lands, mana dorks and mana rocks) have cycling 0.
Scoring:
Whenever someone loses a round, they take all the cards in graveyards, play and exile and claim them as a "shame pile".
Whoever has the smallest shame pile when someone attempts to draw from an empty deck is declared the winner.
8:45 Norin returns at the the beginning of the next end step, he would come back on the next person's end step.
23:10 Mystic Melting destroys Endless Whispers so the Endless Whispers would be in the graveyard first. This may seem like nitpicking, but that is the whole point of the Tower.
Just a couple notes for future rules reference. Gotta make sure we have correct information :)
That moment you realize Carl was violating rules at 5:14 and beyond. Yawgmoth's Agenda says "spells", and to summon a creature or artifact requires casting the spell. Also, turn's out Thoralf shouldn't have been able to play that card, because it counts from the beginning of the turn.
Personally, I prefer to avoid some of the rules hacks that are necessary to make certain cards in Judge Tower work like "any given activated ability can only be activated once per turn cycle" or "X must be 5 if possible" by simply not including cards that would require such workarounds in the deck.
In Rd 2 Carl commited at least the following rules infractions:
1) Phasing happens on untap not upkeep
2) Did not use instants while the original wildest dreams was still on the stack (the copy resolved and cards were put in his hand)
3) Put mystic melding into the graveyard prior to putting the enchantment in the graveyard
9:00 "Norn never returns there is no end step to trigger...." BUZZ this is incorrect. In a multiplayer game, like judge's tower, if a player loses the game, you then quickly proceed through all of their steps and phases to end their turn, giving priority at each of these points. Norn would return. Would have lost right then and there.
This is easily one of the best formats I have learned about thanks to you all.
At the beginning when jamin dies to the baton of morale he shouldn't have died. The rule is you can only activate cards once per turn PER LEGAL TARGET Since both creatures were different targets it was completely legal
I was first introduced to Judge Tower when I was studying to become an L1 back in ‘16/‘17(?), it was such a fun way to reinforce things I knew and learn so many things I didn’t!
Playing RUclips Spectator Judge Tower!
@5:54 Carl passes the turn without flashing back Devil's Play. You have to cast EVERY card you can, including those in the graveyard. Although, if you interpret the "play once per turn cycle" rule to include alternate casts like flashback, then Jamin should have cast it.
@15:05 Vince goes to combat, but his opponents don't divide their creatures between the left and right side of the river. Vince then doesn't declare which side of the river his creature attacks on.
@21:30 As others have said, Carl has to cast his instants after the copy of Wildest Dreams resolves.
Raging River is only for the controller of the enchantment. Jamin didn't attack that turn, so nothing happened.
In the last game, I believe, that Carl actually missed the trigger first. When the Coinsmith enters the battlefield, its trigger goes on the stack and Carl has priority. In this moment, Carl should've cast the Ray of Revelation before the effect resolves. Am I wrong?
i could be wrong, but i believe the knight of the holy nimbus shouldnt have died from the terror, even though it couldn't be regenerated, since it being destroyed would still be replaced. it wouldnt tap and remove damage, etc, but it would still be alive. its like how you never actually draw from an empty library with a laboratory maniac out, even if you cant win because of something like a platinum angel.
I don't really play Magic and certainly not Judge's Tower, but doesn't Jamin instantly win Round 3 when none of his opponents pay the 2 to cause the Knight of the Holy Nimbus to lose regenerate for the turn?
Another fun fact: even if a card says "at the beginning of your draw step, do a thing", you ALWAYS draw your card for turn as the first thing you do in the draw step. So that enchantment that Carl had should have it's trigger resolve AFTER you draw your card for the turn.
Luckily, no one called me on it 😅 or I would have lost. But that's judge tower
This video makes me realize how weird my level of magic knowledge is because I have barely played and I don't know many famous cards that even beginners would know, but I find weird little interactions super interesting so I have read up on a lot rules that even many seasoned players wouldn't know.
Wait... since Yawgmoth's Agenda exiles all cards that go into Thoralf's graveyard, and everybody shares their graveyard, would that not mean that every card that is sent to the graveyard from anywhere should be exiled? Or does the shared graveyard not work that way?