I've seen some people in the fandom call him Ramierez as a fanon name before, so I guess we collectively knew it began with R. :3 Maybe people survive after having a cow dropped on them in Night Vale. XD
As somebody who has listened to every episode, let me just say Janet was by far the best villain I've ever heard. Both in who the character was but also the sneering venomous vocal performance of the actress. Please, less monster of the week, more season long narratives! This past season was dare I say a series highlight!
I can't unhear these things about Carlos. But my heart always will take him as Perfect Carlos the Scientist. That's all I need to know. Beautiful episode
I hope in a future episode Cecil talks about his feelings about Carlos being gone for 10 years. Ever since we found that out and that Carlos was hiding it I’ve wanted Cecil’s reaction and to know their conversation when it’s finally addressed
Me too!! I was upset with the glow cloud being explained!! I don't know if I even want to listen to this one. You're definitely taking one for the team. Thank you.
I love Carlos getting his own main character moment. I love his character but he’s usually playing second fiddle to Cecil and the other members of Nightvale in these conflicts so it’s cool to see him be so active. Also, I love how this series incorporates long running plot points from years and years ago, really makes the series feel interconnected despite the many different storylines.
Spoilers below I knew that Doctor Lubelle wasnt truely explaining everything. I could tell when she failed to explain Joseph Fink and Kareem. But so so glad we got to know Carlos's last name without him being explained away!
Spoilers . . . . . . I was kinda expecting Cecil to have a reaction to Carlos being in the otherworld for 10 years. As far as Cecil knew it was only 1 year. Also with Carlos wanting to investigate the otherworld more... I wonder if he intends to find Kevin again. They did become friends after all, well, Kevin felt they did at least. They were there together for a decade, so maybe Carlos wants to help him.
The thing is, it's been four years since we last checked in on Desert Bluffs Too, which we've established would mean that they've been left to their own devices for forty years. They might not age there, but a lot could have happened in forty years
The name of the episode is so horrifying but I trust Carlos, the scientist with teeth like a military cemetery and perfect hair. (Such a good episode. I just love Night Vale so much. All hail.
So, who else saw the title and screamed "NO" at their designated device? ^^; Haven't listened yet, kinda scared to. 🤭 Edit: That has to be one of the best episodes I've heard in a long time. (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*.✧ All Hail the Glow Cloud! ^•^
at first i was like "carlos explained? haha like those youtube videos-" but then the horrible realization came, carlos *explained* will he be...explained away!?
23:38 --YES! ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD!!! About damn time something like that happened, hope it's not a trick. Some people worship science like it's a religion, it's a bummer. Beautiful ending to a great episode, thank you!
Ok, what should I be most surprised by? Carlos having a legit last name or he was technically in the dog park for a DECADE?! Or that the city council is a den of rattle snakes?
The last name shocked me more tbh, I think the ten years was a thing mentioned in the book or something because I've heard people talk about it before?
i guess its in the dog park but i think its more like there is a portal to the desert otherworld in the dog park, also that fact was actually revealed before because i remember knowing that but i looked it up and it was from one of the books which i guess most people probably haven't read and the 2nd thing you said was debunked at the end of the episode, city council being a den of snakes was just Dr Janet Lubel's explanation but Carlos debunked most of these explanations at the end
I think the 10 years thing might have also been talked about in episode 210 which was the 10 year anniversary episode too. Also, if you want to know which book, it's talked about in 'It Devours' which is technically the second book but you can read all the night vale books out of order without being confused.
That title scares me. I will return to this comment once I'm done with this episode Oh thank the child of the glow cloud. Correction, the glow cloud. Also, uhhhhh desert otherworld mention? Thats what ive been waiting for!
My heart dropped seeing the title. I held baited breath as i listened and found myself yelling and cheering!! I cant wait for another year with this beautiful strange comunity ❤ ALL HAIL!
I remember in the nineties, there was a meme my stepdad liked that said "If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you." Edit: meme like thing. Whatever memes were back then.
i feel conflicted over this episode ): i loved the carlos lore, janet's total fit, and carlos using peer review to stop her. i'm so happy they were voiced for this because it added so much! but i really hope janet's ok. there are so many loose ends from this season that could keep getting pulled at, and i find it hard to believe that out of HUNDREDS of university staff NONE sided with her, even a little bit. i hope they just jumped to the winning team and janet will be ok and theyll jump back to her side. the ending was really amazing conceptually but felt rushed, i wish it had been a 2 parter. im not gonna list the stuff i wish had happened, but i really, really hope janets ok and comes back to cause more problems and we get to see carlos break down under the stress of real leadership and having to manage hundreds of people he hasnt seen in 20 years (or never met) who he cant be certain have night vales best interest at heart
Agreed, I felt this was a disappointing and non-sequitur end to a great villain. Especially given that earlier in this very season, they were setting up character arcs about striving to find non-violent solutions to conflicts (such as Cecil trying to punch Dr. Jones and then realizing it's the wrong way to go about it). This episode contradicts that direction by just solving the problem with violence anyway, rather than tying things together with a clever and satisfying science showdown like we were building up to. There's also pieces of information throughout this episode that don't support the idea that the glow cloud could defeat Dr. Lubelle. You might think, OK maybe that's a fitting end to the character in a way, because her hubris clouds her judgement and she overlooks the true power of the mystical glow cloud that she thinks she fully understands, and so she is defeated by the very supernatural force that she underestimated... But no, later on, it's revealed that her explanation of the parent glow cloud held up under scrutiny and was too solid to undo, therefore the glow cloud's existence is well and truly invalid. So how could the child glow cloud kill her? Like she said upon seeing the child glow cloud, it's just the same phenomenon she already explained and is nothing new. Perhaps one way to navigate this paradox would be to explain the dead cow the same way she explained in episode 221 (a dust devil picking up and dropping dead animals) - just a random hazard that happened to kill Lubelle, further cementing this episode's conclusion as a deus ex machina that does little service to the intricate character arcs that led up to it.
7:41 so i was listening and just when Cecil says "well..." My internet went down and i had a second of panic cause i thought the audio went blank and. Like the timing couldn't have been better 💀
Joseph can eat my wheat and it's byproducts. This is malevolence. The title. The lights. The denial. My heart goes out to these dynamic very sad characters. This is enticing my PTSD of living after the internet and seeing the things that have been hidden from us by our own state. For the love of tree please give us a happy carlos episode. I love you be safe.
I finally got to hear this episode. I remember seeing it pop up in my notifications when it first came out and excitedly added it to my WTNV playlist that I've been slowly getting through. I was so excited to find out more about my boy. Then I heard Sarah Sultan Explained, and I've been filled with dread for the past few weeks knowing this episode was coming. I have to say, I enjoyed it so much, and I'm happy with how it ended.
I love hearing about the live shows. I hope the Haunting of Night Vale comes out soon so I can support it since I couldn't make the tour (we had originally planned to go in 2020 but... Ya know...). My wife and I had our first official date at a live show in 2016 and we have loved every show we've made it to.
Please don't actually kill of Lubelle, she's one of the most interesting antagonists in years and she could be a great background character after this arc.
I love the idea of her getting stuck there, still fruitlessly trying to explain everything she sees as the rest of the town comes to accept her whether she wants it or not. Being forced to live among the weirdness she so desperately wanted to explain away would be a fitting fate for her, becoming just another eccentricity of this strange little town
Just caught up with the past hundred episodes, it's been great! I wonder how many residents are left in Nightvale? Why didn't Lubelle attempt to explain Cecil? (I was thinking she'd try to explain him but find she couldn't and have a breakdown lol)
The whole debate between science used to own, dominate and colonize vs. science used to help, understand and appreciate is obviously a timeless theme, but it especially reminded me of the current debate surrounding all the new anti-trans legislation. I wonder if the creators did this on purpose? Either way, a very beautiful end to this narrative arc!
I'm certain they did! Night Vale is full of social and political commentary. This arc was reminding me of the current climate in the US from the beginning and they've pulled it off so well yet again
well I was highly concerned about the title for a second but then I remembered that carlos is just a normal guy, so there's really no way to "explain" him right?
I think a more fitting end to Dr. Janet would have been that she stopped short of what she was doing to stare upwards to something in the sky. A planet she had never noticed before, one of awesome size, lit by no sun. Then splat, down goes the cow.
@@rat-in-the-void She's also very smart and able to be anywhere she wants. She would know to steer well clear of anyone from the university once other supernatural people started getting explained away.
Spoilers below The title was bad enough but at the new opening theme i fucking gasped and stumbled back clutching my chest 😱 I was so scared this was going to be the last episode and the entire town was just going to be... gone. (Also, to echo a couple of other commenters, I thought the sound of the cow falling on Janet meant that Cecil had just straight-up pulled out a gun and shot her 🤣😅 ALL HAIL)
No no no no no no no no no no no no no nonnonnon no no no please don’t do this and on night vale’s birthday too 😔 Edits from after listening: ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY GLOW CLOUD. I love this town
![Six Hundred Strike [EPIC: The Musical] Full Animatic](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zov6NXIAuow/mqdefault.jpg)
“Perfect Carlos, with teeth as straight as a military cemetery.” That’s the only Carlos explanation I need.
❤
Exactly!
I will say, Carlos being in there for 10 years makes his whole "I don't feel trapped here, it kinda feels like home" thing make a lot more sense
Can't believe this is how we found out Carlos' full name.
Also, Cecil basically going "Oh no! Anyway-" after Dr. Lubelle gets squashed XD
I've seen some people in the fandom call him Ramierez as a fanon name before, so I guess we collectively knew it began with R. :3
Maybe people survive after having a cow dropped on them in Night Vale. XD
I wonder if Carlos having a marine biology degree is relevant to his trauma of deep water.
As somebody who has listened to every episode, let me just say Janet was by far the best villain I've ever heard. Both in who the character was but also the sneering venomous vocal performance of the actress.
Please, less monster of the week, more season long narratives! This past season was dare I say a series highlight!
"and the lights above the arby's..."
yeah, they were stars
"doesn't matter, they're gone now"
wait what
Deadass
Spoilers under!
I THOUGHT THE SOUND OF THE COW BEING DROPPED ON HER WAS A GUN SHOT, I 100% THOUGHT SOMEONE JUST PULLED OUT A GUN AND SHOT HER
SAME I THOUGHT CECIL HAD PULLED A GUN
SAME I THOUGHT CARLOS LEGIT PULLED A GUN
The title alone gave this community collective trauma, I see 😂 Well-played, WTNV. Well-played.
My jaw literally dropped when I read the title
Hold up... so I haven't heard the video yet. I'm kinda dreading it. Please PLEASE tell me nothing bad happened to Carlos.
Whew! Carlos is saved by a falling cow lol 😂😂
"her explainations were not peer-reviewed" [gasps in science]
And from the ashes Nightvale is reborn...
Cheers to another chapter in this chaotic and horror filled desert community
I can't unhear these things about Carlos. But my heart always will take him as Perfect Carlos the Scientist. That's all I need to know. Beautiful episode
This! So glad Night Vale is back
So when City Council-was demanding Free Arby’s Smokehouse brisket sliders it was just a pack of confused hungry rattle snakes? that’s adorable…….
When I heard that thump I thought Josh ran her over, but the cow falling from the sky was good too
I hope in a future episode Cecil talks about his feelings about Carlos being gone for 10 years. Ever since we found that out and that Carlos was hiding it I’ve wanted Cecil’s reaction and to know their conversation when it’s finally addressed
The title has me crumbling, DON'T YALL DARE😭😭(will update after listen)
My thoughts exactly. Don't even think about hurting my dear sweet Carlos
Exactly! Don't do it! I almost can't listen!
Sames
Me too!! I was upset with the glow cloud being explained!! I don't know if I even want to listen to this one. You're definitely taking one for the team. Thank you.
There are logical fallacies, black holes down which endless considerations can spaghettifi; there is hope, mystery can return
I love Carlos getting his own main character moment. I love his character but he’s usually playing second fiddle to Cecil and the other members of Nightvale in these conflicts so it’s cool to see him be so active. Also, I love how this series incorporates long running plot points from years and years ago, really makes the series feel interconnected despite the many different storylines.
Spoilers below
I knew that Doctor Lubelle wasnt truely explaining everything. I could tell when she failed to explain Joseph Fink and Kareem. But so so glad we got to know Carlos's last name without him being explained away!
Not me feeling genuinely sad and mournful for this GLOW CLOUD BABY 😭
THE WAY I JUMPED FROM MY BED AND SCREAMED WHEN I READ THE TITLE
Spoilers
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.
.
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I was kinda expecting Cecil to have a reaction to Carlos being in the otherworld for 10 years. As far as Cecil knew it was only 1 year.
Also with Carlos wanting to investigate the otherworld more... I wonder if he intends to find Kevin again. They did become friends after all, well, Kevin felt they did at least. They were there together for a decade, so maybe Carlos wants to help him.
The thing is, it's been four years since we last checked in on Desert Bluffs Too, which we've established would mean that they've been left to their own devices for forty years. They might not age there, but a lot could have happened in forty years
De nyle ees a reevur but carlos knows not mountains so...
I know she didn't play her but this fervent unhinged energy really has Janet sounding like Reagan Ridley in the vocal patterns.
The name of the episode is so horrifying but I trust Carlos, the scientist with teeth like a military cemetery and perfect hair.
(Such a good episode. I just love Night Vale so much. All hail.
So, who else saw the title and screamed "NO" at their designated device? ^^;
Haven't listened yet, kinda scared to. 🤭
Edit:
That has to be one of the best episodes I've heard in a long time. (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*.✧
All Hail the Glow Cloud! ^•^
in my headcannon someone tried to pull dr lubelle out from under the cow, only for her shoes to come of and her feet curl up and retracts
Welcome back Nighvale restored, welcome back and ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOD.
at first i was like "carlos explained? haha like those youtube videos-" but then the horrible realization came, carlos *explained* will he be...explained away!?
23:38 --YES! ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD!!! About damn time something like that happened, hope it's not a trick.
Some people worship science like it's a religion, it's a bummer.
Beautiful ending to a great episode, thank you!
Who could Carlos be the "son of " that would explain him away?
I kinda got the impression that he was one of the Glow Cloud's children.
I wonder how Dr. Lubelle would have faired in Desert Bluffs.
Probably not very well. People in the Bluffs are a bit more violent about things they dislike.
I haven’t even listened yet but that title has me internally screaming. Not Carlos!
Every second of this episode sent shivers down my spine.
Ok, what should I be most surprised by?
Carlos having a legit last name or he was technically in the dog park for a DECADE?!
Or that the city council is a den of rattle snakes?
The last name shocked me more tbh, I think the ten years was a thing mentioned in the book or something because I've heard people talk about it before?
i guess its in the dog park but i think its more like there is a portal to the desert otherworld in the dog park, also that fact was actually revealed before because i remember knowing that but i looked it up and it was from one of the books which i guess most people probably haven't read
and the 2nd thing you said was debunked at the end of the episode, city council being a den of snakes was just Dr Janet Lubel's explanation but Carlos debunked most of these explanations at the end
Carlos being gone for a decade was talked about in the book. He didn't want to Cecil because he knew he would worry
I think the 10 years thing might have also been talked about in episode 210 which was the 10 year anniversary episode too. Also, if you want to know which book, it's talked about in 'It Devours' which is technically the second book but you can read all the night vale books out of order without being confused.
@@lilaboxx oh it was? Probably forgot, I haven’t finished it yet. It devours right?
ALL HAIL THE OMNIPOTENT AND GLORIOUS CHILD OF THE GLOWCLOUD!!
I still feel that Kevin could have been very helpful here
Should've sent her straight to the Smiling God...
That title scares me. I will return to this comment once I'm done with this episode
Oh thank the child of the glow cloud.
Correction, the glow cloud.
Also, uhhhhh desert otherworld mention? Thats what ive been waiting for!
This woman could best be called a petulant child throwing tantrums. ALSO SHE WAS MAKING THE MEASALS WORSE, WHAT KIND OF SUPERVILLIAN WAS SHE
My heart dropped seeing the title. I held baited breath as i listened and found myself yelling and cheering!! I cant wait for another year with this beautiful strange comunity ❤ ALL HAIL!
I remember in the nineties, there was a meme my stepdad liked that said "If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you."
Edit: meme like thing. Whatever memes were back then.
I gasped when I read the title
So, uh, what ever happened to Carlos's personal team of scientists?
didn’t they mostly die?
This was the first episode that I had to wait for!! I’m officially a Nightvalean I think thats how it works
ok, I feel like this episode deserves this one:
*_FUCK YES_*
i feel conflicted over this episode ):
i loved the carlos lore, janet's total fit, and carlos using peer review to stop her. i'm so happy they were voiced for this because it added so much!
but i really hope janet's ok. there are so many loose ends from this season that could keep getting pulled at, and i find it hard to believe that out of HUNDREDS of university staff NONE sided with her, even a little bit. i hope they just jumped to the winning team and janet will be ok and theyll jump back to her side. the ending was really amazing conceptually but felt rushed, i wish it had been a 2 parter.
im not gonna list the stuff i wish had happened, but i really, really hope janets ok and comes back to cause more problems and we get to see carlos break down under the stress of real leadership and having to manage hundreds of people he hasnt seen in 20 years (or never met) who he cant be certain have night vales best interest at heart
Agreed, I felt this was a disappointing and non-sequitur end to a great villain. Especially given that earlier in this very season, they were setting up character arcs about striving to find non-violent solutions to conflicts (such as Cecil trying to punch Dr. Jones and then realizing it's the wrong way to go about it). This episode contradicts that direction by just solving the problem with violence anyway, rather than tying things together with a clever and satisfying science showdown like we were building up to.
There's also pieces of information throughout this episode that don't support the idea that the glow cloud could defeat Dr. Lubelle. You might think, OK maybe that's a fitting end to the character in a way, because her hubris clouds her judgement and she overlooks the true power of the mystical glow cloud that she thinks she fully understands, and so she is defeated by the very supernatural force that she underestimated... But no, later on, it's revealed that her explanation of the parent glow cloud held up under scrutiny and was too solid to undo, therefore the glow cloud's existence is well and truly invalid. So how could the child glow cloud kill her? Like she said upon seeing the child glow cloud, it's just the same phenomenon she already explained and is nothing new. Perhaps one way to navigate this paradox would be to explain the dead cow the same way she explained in episode 221 (a dust devil picking up and dropping dead animals) - just a random hazard that happened to kill Lubelle, further cementing this episode's conclusion as a deus ex machina that does little service to the intricate character arcs that led up to it.
Idk I think maybe it was building up to, sometimes violence is the answer no matter how much you want it to not be.
ALL VALE THE GLOW CLOUD. ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD!
I saw the name, and I'm terrified.
I can't listen to this right now but I just got the notification and never have I been so scared based on a title alone
7:41 so i was listening and just when Cecil says "well..." My internet went down and i had a second of panic cause i thought the audio went blank and. Like the timing couldn't have been better 💀
Joseph can eat my wheat and it's byproducts. This is malevolence. The title. The lights. The denial. My heart goes out to these dynamic very sad characters. This is enticing my PTSD of living after the internet and seeing the things that have been hidden from us by our own state. For the love of tree please give us a happy carlos episode. I love you be safe.
I finally got to hear this episode. I remember seeing it pop up in my notifications when it first came out and excitedly added it to my WTNV playlist that I've been slowly getting through. I was so excited to find out more about my boy. Then I heard Sarah Sultan Explained, and I've been filled with dread for the past few weeks knowing this episode was coming.
I have to say, I enjoyed it so much, and I'm happy with how it ended.
They explained the weather away?
I usually skip past it, but that's really sad.
That was a while ago, but it'll be back now!
I love hearing about the live shows. I hope the Haunting of Night Vale comes out soon so I can support it since I couldn't make the tour (we had originally planned to go in 2020 but... Ya know...). My wife and I had our first official date at a live show in 2016 and we have loved every show we've made it to.
Thank you Carlos! ❤
Never have I had such apprehension when pressing play.
There are many benefits to being a marine biologist
Please please please after the hiatus have more Kevin episodes. I love him and Desert Bluffs so much.
Its 1:27 am I was about to go to bed guess that's delayed 32 mins
All hail the child of the MIGHTY GLOW CLOUD
i was so scared i had to read through the transcript
Please don't actually kill of Lubelle, she's one of the most interesting antagonists in years and she could be a great background character after this arc.
I'm sure she's fine. ;)
I love the idea of her getting stuck there, still fruitlessly trying to explain everything she sees as the rest of the town comes to accept her whether she wants it or not. Being forced to live among the weirdness she so desperately wanted to explain away would be a fitting fate for her, becoming just another eccentricity of this strange little town
@@screamingcactus1753 i think that once the people stop taking her seriously and believing her she loses her power
Just caught up with the past hundred episodes, it's been great! I wonder how many residents are left in Nightvale? Why didn't Lubelle attempt to explain Cecil? (I was thinking she'd try to explain him but find she couldn't and have a breakdown lol)
*Spoilers ahead*
ROBLES? FUCKING ROBLES? THIS IS A CONSENSUS I HAVE NEVER KNEW I NEEDED.
So... did Carlos manage to explain away the explanation to Joseph Fink?
Wow. What an amazing episode. Night Vale, you've done it again
Wow thisll be unforgettable.
The whole debate between science used to own, dominate and colonize vs. science used to help, understand and appreciate is obviously a timeless theme, but it especially reminded me of the current debate surrounding all the new anti-trans legislation. I wonder if the creators did this on purpose? Either way, a very beautiful end to this narrative arc!
I'm certain they did! Night Vale is full of social and political commentary. This arc was reminding me of the current climate in the US from the beginning and they've pulled it off so well yet again
Omg, Carlos has a middle and last name. Wow.
Omg the whole time she was giving her carlos banishing speech i was thinking "come on glow cloud, strike her dead!!" AND THEN- C O W
All hail the Glow Cloud!
All hail the Mighty Glow Cloud! 🌈🌩 ALL HAIL
Carlos Dave Robles
well I was highly concerned about the title for a second but then I remembered that carlos is just a normal guy, so there's really no way to "explain" him
right?
plus they wouldn't. They absolutely wouldn't.
_I knew it_
I think a more fitting end to Dr. Janet would have been that she stopped short of what she was doing to stare upwards to something in the sky. A planet she had never noticed before, one of awesome size, lit by no sun. Then splat, down goes the cow.
* AHH. THE TITLE. updating after initial listen....
* update: 😦
On the one hand, I kinda wanna know what she was about to say. On the other hand: ding dong, baby 😎
after listening to this one, I was sorta thinking they would of "explained" the faceless old woman who lives who lives in everyone's home
she was already explained in the book so maybe that's why they ignored her case here
@@rat-in-the-void She's also very smart and able to be anywhere she wants. She would know to steer well clear of anyone from the university once other supernatural people started getting explained away.
All hail the glow cloud cow!
Carlos has a last name 😮😂
I was so worried when I saw the title!
NO! I Started crying even before listening to the episode D":
UPD. jeez it sounds like the final episode
ALL HAIL!
Spoilers below
The title was bad enough but at the new opening theme i fucking gasped and stumbled back clutching my chest 😱 I was so scared this was going to be the last episode and the entire town was just going to be... gone.
(Also, to echo a couple of other commenters, I thought the sound of the cow falling on Janet meant that Cecil had just straight-up pulled out a gun and shot her 🤣😅 ALL HAIL)
Pulling an Elias Bouchard
I listened.
😆
ALL HAIL THE CHILD OF THE GLOW CLOUD!
FREAKING OUT RIGHT NOW
The showdown
Bring back the weather :(
What happened to the weather?!
@@redrasegarden it got explained a few episodes ago
@@portalknight1 😢
!!! Pls don't die
ALL HAIL. ALL HAIL.
No no no no no no no no no no no no no nonnonnon no no no please don’t do this and on night vale’s birthday too 😔
Edits from after listening: ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY GLOW CLOUD. I love this town
ALL HAIL
Not me completely forgetting that Carlos has his own last name
NO STOP IT
Carlos's last name!!😮
I should be happy to learn his last name but it just doesnt feel right😭
And his middle one.
I was so upset at the title.
IS EVERYONE OK AFTER THAT I'VE GOT SHOCK BLANKETS IF ANYONE NEEDS THEM
I imagine that the man who is not tall and the man who is not short are the same height.
ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD
Why is this episode not showing up on Google podcasts?
Carlos!
Carlos lore-
Also he’s the son of…. Who?
CARLOS!!!
What is this? Earthworm Jim?