My first real job was working in a magic store, where we were often approached about doing free shows for organizations that would give the same line about how it would be great exposure for us. Every time someone came in with that offer, the owner of the store would politely turn them down. As soon as they left, he'd turn around to us and go, "Boys... the only thing a free show will get you is another free show." Words to live by.
In the middle of reading a contract right now ! Just to add one thing when it comes to contracts make sure they are putting your company name on any paperwork.
For sure. The industry is becoming nastier and nastier with these brands/companies trying to screw over photographers, especially people just starting out.
This was, unfortunately, the way I worked my way into the wedding industry. It worked out because these people made me a main, paid shooter after a few free weddings... even made good money for a few years, too. But it always left a sour taste in my mouth with how cheap they were, and I was never 100% sure I could trust these people.
@@receivebacon I've been in a few situations where I tried it out and when I arrived as the primary shooter , they were like "who are you ?" So embarrassing and awkward.
I fallen for this one and won't ever do these types of deals. 250 dollar product, one month to post. I takes me about 10 hours to record and edit video, test the product 40 hrs.. so that is 50 hrs... For a 200 USD product... Doesn't make any sense. Wise lesson that was. Thanks for posing. Some of them actually will sent you a lens and suddenly you can pay import....yeah, no! Looking now a local camera store to do a collab... Way easier to get loanies
This needs to be seen by more creators. A lot of people don’t realize that if you get a product, it is just an expense for the company but you need to pay tax according to your state if we talk about US. Gifts like these can be taxable. I was presented a right grabbing contract twice, never signed it. I wish people read those contracts more carefully instead of blindly giving away their work.
hi, loved this video. I always to know more about such aspects of photography as I have faced many such incidents but don't know how to handle them. Can you make more videos or have videos on your channel already. Want to know more about the contract part too.
Terrific stuff, incredibly useful. In any realm of life, contracts should be a back-and-forth, collaborative, we hope, process. Not a list of demands. They cry out to be marked up with a sharpie.
Oh man, do I ever feel this video on a personal level! I've unfortunately had to learn pretty much every item on this list the hard way, so I can vouch for everything Dave is saying from personal experience. Sorry in advance for the ramble, I promise it goes somewhere... TL;DR - Dave is so bloody spot on that it hurts down in my core, but there's a defense mechanism you can employ to head this garbage off at the pass so its less likely to cause you grief. As one of the elder-most Elder Millennials who's first paid photography work was back in the '90s, if I can add any supporting words of advice to this video for anyone hoping to make a few bucks in the photography game in addition to what Dave's already said, it's to spend some time soul searching and getting to the bottom of the "why" behind what you do as an artist and businessperson. From there, formulate a mission statement and a statement of values where you outline your ethical views and your standards. Let it be the document that becomes a guide to how you will conduct business, even if you never make it public or viewable to anyone other than yourself (though I would recommend making it public and accessible on your business website). All this might sound like it's a little off topic, but once you spend time with yourself figuring out your "why" and your values and ethical standards, it makes it much easier to put your foot down and draw a line in the sand when it comes to saying no to things like product-for-work schemes, the promise of exposure in exchange for work, or the promise of future referrals in exchange for giving your current potential customer a significant discount; it makes it less likely you'll bend your personal rules, cut quality corners, overlook or let slide questionable line items in contracts, overlook missed or late payments, or be tempted to accept shady "product review" deals. Dave's spot on the money, NOBODY promising to give you exposure will EVER fully follow through, if at all, and maybe one percent (or less) of all those future promised "referrals" will ever convert into a paid gig, and if they do, they're FAR more likely to NOT pay what your full price is because the people who referred them told them the EXACT deal you gave them, and they're knocking on your door because they want the SAME DEAL. They'll never pay full price, and the worst part is that those people who like your work will recommend you anyways and you've undersold yourself for nothing. I unfortunately know this from direct experience... lots of it. I'm ashamed to admit how much I fell for this and for how long. It wasn't until I sat down and had a long and difficult conversation with myself, did some deep soul searching, practiced some honest self-awareness, and committed to paper my "why," what is at the core of my motivation as an artist and business owner, that it became almost effortless to say "no" when it matters. Getting this hammered out allowed me to reformulate my pricing structure in a clearer, more concise, and honest way that's more fair to me and the people who work with/for me, and is also more equitable and fair for my customers too. This, in turn, lead to the exploration and clarifying of multiple policies for my business which I hadn't realized were pain points or sources of frustration. I've since been through and fleshed out clearer versions of my general contracts, my general terms of service, and a whole host of other items that I really should have gotten buttoned down and sorted out 15 - 20 years ago. It would have saved me a great deal of heartache and frustration, and I would have likely started to bing in more money sooner. It would have very likely prevented me from taking a multi-year break from my business in the 2010s. It would have placed me in a much better position today. This kind of self-awareness becomes even more important when you get to the point in your business where you're subcontracting work or hiring others. It can be the most liberating thing you can do for yourself as an artist, a businessperson, and even as a human being in general. Knowing who you are, what you stand for and why make it as simple as breathing when it comes time to stand up for yourself and say no to shady folks who want to take advantage of you, and it becomes easier to say no to gigs which ask you to cut corners, produce work below your quality standards, or worst of all, compromise your ethical standards.
The last part about the lens company reaching out to you, has cemented in my mind my suspicion about the motivations of RUclips channels and their relationship with any company and the product there’re talking about. Regardless, sterling advise there that anyone with any common sense would listen too. Knowing your value or worth is perhaps the hardest lesson we have to learn as photographers.
Every creator has their own structure and agreements, and I personally know several who have gotten amazing (and awful) deals. We each have our experiences, and this video was sharing mine.
@@davidherring to clarify, my suspicion (sceptical is probably a better term) is this…. If you have a really really high end camera brand that is offering up their cameras and lenses to be reviewed, a brand that invests many thousands of dollars into design and research, they’re going to be very controlling over what a reviewer says, especially if the reviewer gets to keep said camera or lens. I’ve often wondered how a reviewer can truly claim their opinions are their own on said camera and lens reviews. A camera worth 10k for example, one you get to keep, is going to come with a whole lot of caveats to what can and cannot be said. That’s what I think anyway. Still, kudos to those that bag said deals.
Around 20 years ago for a few years I worked in a tech magazine (remember magazines?), and we specifically were told not to accept anything from the companies whose products we reviewed. We would ask for stuff from manufacturers to review, or they reached out to us when they were about to launch something. The manufacturers paid the shipping to and from, they did not compensate us nor did we pay for anything to them. You'd think the work would be geeking out on fancy new unreleased products, but it was like 80% just organising logistics and unpacking / packing. Sometimes after the review we would want to keep the product for a reference in the future. So we'd ask for an invoice for the product, and pay the net cost of it to the manufacturer. Of course the test rooms cabinets were filled jam packed with products that were reviewed years ago and the manufacturer just didn't want to pay to ship back. But those were more of a burden taking up space than a generous gift or a compensation.
If all photographers/content creators out there hold their ground and say no to those types of shady contracts, everyone would be better off. Imagine if a brush company wants to send you a pair of brushes in exchange for a 120mm painting.
It always makes me laugh when I get approached by these companies wanting to use my images or publish them for "free" in their magazines, every time I flat out tell them if they want to use my images then they got to pay, funny how fast they stop sending me multiple emails every day. I'd also steer clear of freelance photo job sites cos almost all of the people looking for photographers on those sites want something for nothing (time for prints) or pay laughable low wages.
Great video. Not sure you need to get amped up about the lens review thing, it's just business. The only thing I would say is if you invested time in negotiations and a contract review you should not have been so polite in your response. A simple "the contract does not reflect our negotiations and I have decide to end this process" would have been fine.
I retired from commercial photography over 20 years ago. Back then I was charging $2000 a day plus expenses. Can anyone advise what the rates are these days?
I charge $2500/day for time, and I may be cheaper with licensing for social, but I only sell images in a “four pack” for $100 ($25/each). For web or print, I charge $500/image. Then there’s retail, which had a custom license I worked with a company on. They license to sell my photo, framed.
@@davidherring Wow! I got out of it in 2002 due to the day rates plummeting as a result of digital. Using the CPI, the equivalent would be $3200 today or thereabouts. Your $2500 is still in the ballpark, so it's bounced back to some degree.
Being a purveyor of oddball lenses, I think I know which company we are talking about, and honestly I'm not surprised. Only place they seem to pop up are youtube reviews. I tried to find more information about the company quite a while back when they first appeared, but their weird and pretentious website really put me off.
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
My first real job was working in a magic store, where we were often approached about doing free shows for organizations that would give the same line about how it would be great exposure for us. Every time someone came in with that offer, the owner of the store would politely turn them down. As soon as they left, he'd turn around to us and go, "Boys... the only thing a free show will get you is another free show."
Words to live by.
Well said!
In the middle of reading a contract right now ! Just to add one thing when it comes to contracts make sure they are putting your company name on any paperwork.
Good tip!
Dave, Very good advice on all fronts. Thanks for making this video. Important life lessons in an increasingly aggressive commercial environment.
For sure. The industry is becoming nastier and nastier with these brands/companies trying to screw over photographers, especially people just starting out.
While on the scamming subject. Another messy one is the wedding photography associate shooter scam . Super predatory to the industry.
I have no experience with second-shooting, but I could see this being a thing.
This was, unfortunately, the way I worked my way into the wedding industry. It worked out because these people made me a main, paid shooter after a few free weddings... even made good money for a few years, too. But it always left a sour taste in my mouth with how cheap they were, and I was never 100% sure I could trust these people.
@@receivebacon I've been in a few situations where I tried it out and when I arrived as the primary shooter , they were like "who are you ?" So embarrassing and awkward.
I fallen for this one and won't ever do these types of deals. 250 dollar product, one month to post. I takes me about 10 hours to record and edit video, test the product 40 hrs.. so that is 50 hrs... For a 200 USD product... Doesn't make any sense. Wise lesson that was. Thanks for posing. Some of them actually will sent you a lens and suddenly you can pay import....yeah, no! Looking now a local camera store to do a collab... Way easier to get loanies
Most people have been victims of this. But we learn and move forward!
This needs to be seen by more creators. A lot of people don’t realize that if you get a product, it is just an expense for the company but you need to pay tax according to your state if we talk about US. Gifts like these can be taxable. I was presented a right grabbing contract twice, never signed it. I wish people read those contracts more carefully instead of blindly giving away their work.
Thanks for sharing. It’s true that you can be taxed on these!
hi, loved this video. I always to know more about such aspects of photography as I have faced many such incidents but don't know how to handle them. Can you make more videos or have videos on your channel already. Want to know more about the contract part too.
I’ll be working in the business side on my channel, so keep watching!
Terrific stuff, incredibly useful. In any realm of life, contracts should be a back-and-forth, collaborative, we hope, process. Not a list of demands. They cry out to be marked up with a sharpie.
I personally appreciate all the back and forth happening relationally, then the contract being the terms we discussed.
Very interesting. Good that you point those things out. Great vid as always.
Thank you. Hope it helps somebody!
Oh man, do I ever feel this video on a personal level! I've unfortunately had to learn pretty much every item on this list the hard way, so I can vouch for everything Dave is saying from personal experience. Sorry in advance for the ramble, I promise it goes somewhere... TL;DR - Dave is so bloody spot on that it hurts down in my core, but there's a defense mechanism you can employ to head this garbage off at the pass so its less likely to cause you grief.
As one of the elder-most Elder Millennials who's first paid photography work was back in the '90s, if I can add any supporting words of advice to this video for anyone hoping to make a few bucks in the photography game in addition to what Dave's already said, it's to spend some time soul searching and getting to the bottom of the "why" behind what you do as an artist and businessperson. From there, formulate a mission statement and a statement of values where you outline your ethical views and your standards. Let it be the document that becomes a guide to how you will conduct business, even if you never make it public or viewable to anyone other than yourself (though I would recommend making it public and accessible on your business website).
All this might sound like it's a little off topic, but once you spend time with yourself figuring out your "why" and your values and ethical standards, it makes it much easier to put your foot down and draw a line in the sand when it comes to saying no to things like product-for-work schemes, the promise of exposure in exchange for work, or the promise of future referrals in exchange for giving your current potential customer a significant discount; it makes it less likely you'll bend your personal rules, cut quality corners, overlook or let slide questionable line items in contracts, overlook missed or late payments, or be tempted to accept shady "product review" deals.
Dave's spot on the money, NOBODY promising to give you exposure will EVER fully follow through, if at all, and maybe one percent (or less) of all those future promised "referrals" will ever convert into a paid gig, and if they do, they're FAR more likely to NOT pay what your full price is because the people who referred them told them the EXACT deal you gave them, and they're knocking on your door because they want the SAME DEAL. They'll never pay full price, and the worst part is that those people who like your work will recommend you anyways and you've undersold yourself for nothing. I unfortunately know this from direct experience... lots of it. I'm ashamed to admit how much I fell for this and for how long.
It wasn't until I sat down and had a long and difficult conversation with myself, did some deep soul searching, practiced some honest self-awareness, and committed to paper my "why," what is at the core of my motivation as an artist and business owner, that it became almost effortless to say "no" when it matters.
Getting this hammered out allowed me to reformulate my pricing structure in a clearer, more concise, and honest way that's more fair to me and the people who work with/for me, and is also more equitable and fair for my customers too. This, in turn, lead to the exploration and clarifying of multiple policies for my business which I hadn't realized were pain points or sources of frustration.
I've since been through and fleshed out clearer versions of my general contracts, my general terms of service, and a whole host of other items that I really should have gotten buttoned down and sorted out 15 - 20 years ago. It would have saved me a great deal of heartache and frustration, and I would have likely started to bing in more money sooner. It would have very likely prevented me from taking a multi-year break from my business in the 2010s. It would have placed me in a much better position today.
This kind of self-awareness becomes even more important when you get to the point in your business where you're subcontracting work or hiring others.
It can be the most liberating thing you can do for yourself as an artist, a businessperson, and even as a human being in general.
Knowing who you are, what you stand for and why make it as simple as breathing when it comes time to stand up for yourself and say no to shady folks who want to take advantage of you, and it becomes easier to say no to gigs which ask you to cut corners, produce work below your quality standards, or worst of all, compromise your ethical standards.
Man thank you for sharing all of that! And very good words for everyone!
Excellent tips Dave!
Thank you!
The last part about the lens company reaching out to you, has cemented in my mind my suspicion about the motivations of RUclips channels and their relationship with any company and the product there’re talking about. Regardless, sterling advise there that anyone with any common sense would listen too. Knowing your value or worth is perhaps the hardest lesson we have to learn as photographers.
Every creator has their own structure and agreements, and I personally know several who have gotten amazing (and awful) deals. We each have our experiences, and this video was sharing mine.
@@davidherring to clarify, my suspicion (sceptical is probably a better term) is this…. If you have a really really high end camera brand that is offering up their cameras and lenses to be reviewed, a brand that invests many thousands of dollars into design and research, they’re going to be very controlling over what a reviewer says, especially if the reviewer gets to keep said camera or lens. I’ve often wondered how a reviewer can truly claim their opinions are their own on said camera and lens reviews. A camera worth 10k for example, one you get to keep, is going to come with a whole lot of caveats to what can and cannot be said. That’s what I think anyway. Still, kudos to those that bag said deals.
Around 20 years ago for a few years I worked in a tech magazine (remember magazines?), and we specifically were told not to accept anything from the companies whose products we reviewed. We would ask for stuff from manufacturers to review, or they reached out to us when they were about to launch something. The manufacturers paid the shipping to and from, they did not compensate us nor did we pay for anything to them. You'd think the work would be geeking out on fancy new unreleased products, but it was like 80% just organising logistics and unpacking / packing.
Sometimes after the review we would want to keep the product for a reference in the future. So we'd ask for an invoice for the product, and pay the net cost of it to the manufacturer.
Of course the test rooms cabinets were filled jam packed with products that were reviewed years ago and the manufacturer just didn't want to pay to ship back. But those were more of a burden taking up space than a generous gift or a compensation.
If all photographers/content creators out there hold their ground and say no to those types of shady contracts, everyone would be better off. Imagine if a brush company wants to send you a pair of brushes in exchange for a 120mm painting.
Well said!
It always makes me laugh when I get approached by these companies wanting to use my images or publish them for "free" in their magazines, every time I flat out tell them if they want to use my images then they got to pay, funny how fast they stop sending me multiple emails every day. I'd also steer clear of freelance photo job sites cos almost all of the people looking for photographers on those sites want something for nothing (time for prints) or pay laughable low wages.
TFP... my God what an annoying acronym.
Thank you for this!
No prob!
Great video. Not sure you need to get amped up about the lens review thing, it's just business. The only thing I would say is if you invested time in negotiations and a contract review you should not have been so polite in your response. A simple "the contract does not reflect our negotiations and I have decide to end this process" would have been fine.
I hear you. We spent a week over a dozen emails to get on the same page, and then the contract came with this stuff. Moved on! 🤷🏻♂️😅
On the low end yes on the high end depends. That’s how it goes.
Thanks for sharing!
I retired from commercial photography over 20 years ago. Back then I was charging $2000 a day plus expenses. Can anyone advise what the rates are these days?
Still $2000 a day plus expenses! 😂
I charge $2500/day for time, and I may be cheaper with licensing for social, but I only sell images in a “four pack” for $100 ($25/each). For web or print, I charge $500/image.
Then there’s retail, which had a custom license I worked with a company on. They license to sell my photo, framed.
@@davidherring
Wow! I got out of it in 2002 due to the day rates plummeting as a result of digital. Using the CPI, the equivalent would be $3200 today or thereabouts. Your $2500 is still in the ballpark, so it's bounced back to some degree.
I wish we would know who that company is. Thank you
I don't want to be that guy who ties them up in knots.
Being a purveyor of oddball lenses, I think I know which company we are talking about, and honestly I'm not surprised. Only place they seem to pop up are youtube reviews. I tried to find more information about the company quite a while back when they first appeared, but their weird and pretentious website really put me off.