Bard Subclasses Ranked: D&D
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
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Timestamps:
0:00 Ad
1:16 Intro
9:14 The Bard
13:25 College of Creation
15:41 College of Eloquence
17:58 College of Glamour
20:10 College of Lore
23:02 College of Spirits
24:46 College of Swords
28:24 College of Valor
31:01 College of Whispers
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The Eloquence bard surely can make a good argument for itself.
Underrated comment
(Sad trombone noises)
Well said
You're better than this joke.
Aldo could have made it more eloquent and high brained
I’ve said it before but a Lore Bard using Cutting Words on an enemy’s initiative can end the fight in less than a round.
I like that I never thought about using cutting words for that
@@ebertgameandstuff Initiative is a skill check and can be debuffed. That being said it only works on one creature. So you need to be aware of that or talk to your DM about how to adjudicate that ruling
Omg thank you! Almost too late, as I'm playing CoS with my lore Bard and next session is the final battle. Any guesses as to what I'm going to do to Strahd at the start of the session?
Speaking of initiative, consider a dip in divine soul sorcerer. I never multi class a full caster early in a campaign because of the slowed progression, but in adventure league, worth considering. Timing it is not always possible, but casting Guidance cantrip on a board controller or rogue gives them a d4 to add to their initiative. Then use cutting word on an enemy that rolled high.
On top of that, I took sacred flame and toll dead for damage, and of course mind sliver because it should be a Bard cantrip (pairing this with Bane is a heck of a debuff), plus shield and absorb elements for spells. I prefer that dip over hexblade for a Lore Bard
@@wrongnote5606 Have you made my exact same character? Also, free Inflict Wounds.
I can’t wait for Treantmonk’s list of monk S tier subclasses ;)
Now that’s funny.
S tier: Four Elements
A to F tier: literally everything else
haha good one, but the reral question is which one will get more monk or hunter^^
@@blubblubwhat Hunter?
We might have to wait a long time.
Regarding Lore, you might have undervalued cutting word. I use it a lot on initiative if I know the target is not immune to charm. It prevented a lot of powerful enemies from going first, which is invaluable. Also great on an AoE as it's a reaction after the rolls. Cutting fireball damage from average of 27 to an average of 22 (assuming d8) before resistances, saving throws and reactions, like absorb elements, is incredible. It is inconsistent though as you can roll 1, but when you roll max, your teammates are cheering and thanking you. I know it competes with other reaction uses, but the above are great options when needed
I hadn't considered using it on an AoE, that's a good use for sure.
Love the AoE Cutting Words when it comes up. Reducing a Cone of Cold damage by 18 after 2 save and 2 fail because you rolled a 6 is a great use for Inspiration.
@@TreantmonksTemple also it could be quite good for enemies casting counterspell
I think it's hard to argue against College of Lore being an A tier subclass. I understand what you're saying about cutting words being unreliable, particularly at lower levels. but being able to see the roll before applying the debuff means that you're going to be able to play the averages and come out ahead way more often than not. Your video also didn't seem to take into account non direct damage applications of cutting words; like forcing an enemy to fail a key grapple or counterspell, or altering the BBEG's initiative so your team can nova it down before it even has a chance to act.
I also think you undersold the level 6 magical secret, despite the praise it was given. Giving a full caster access to two third level spells from any class list is incredibly powerful; not only does it allow you to address individual shortcomings, but allows you to plug capability gaps in your party. No cleric in your party to raise the dead? Revivify! No druid to use summons for action economy? Conjure animals! Third level spellcasting represents such a big power spike for most caster classes, being able to pick and choose among them at 6th level almost makes this an A tier subclass on its own.
As always, appreciate the work and discussion from your videos and am looking forward to the next round of cleric
The other thing about Level 6 is it's not Magical Secrets but Additional Magical Secrets. The difference, the spells gained from Additional Magical Secrets don't count against the number of bard spells known, meaning they will have two more spells known then any other bard. As a spellcaster, you really like having more spells to play with.
The magical secrets also allows the lore bard to gain more defensive capability. Mage armor, shield, armor of agathys, these are all great defense spells, that the lore bard can take.
Cutting words was way undersold. Reducing ability checks and damage rolls goes quite a bit beyond just negating attacks. And the criticism based on die rolls is a head scratcher as it applies to any use of bardic inspiration. Any other application depends on party members not using it like idiots, something you can better control in using your own reaction for likely utility.
Bards are one the best classes in the game, as they can reliably shine in any scenario. The trick with subclasses is that what one of them doesn't give, you could easily get through multiclassing or via feats, so in the long run, most fell in the same place, a really good one indeed.
At 6th level tho, we get a ✨B A N G E R✨ hahahahahahhahha I love Chris so much lol
Bard is pretty much one of my favorite classes. I would say their base class damage output suffers a tad when they really have to kill something. I'm interested in using creation for animating a canon, though.
Bards aren't really meant to kill things. They're meant to make sure that their companions are actually able to kill things and live to tell the tale. ;-)
Bards kill by making allies kill the target. Dissonant whispers and now command feom Tashas are both fantastic
Well, upcasting animate objects and spiritual weapon can give you some nice sustained damage while doing other stuff. You could hack/fire at your enemies or cast some damage spells. Someone on Reddit claimed, Whispers bards could actually deal the most single class DPR at around level 10, this way. I have only looked at its performance when multiclassed but bard only should still be quite good. Haste and Greater Invis also give you some nice options.
That said, I think (physical damage) bards really shine when getting Paladin smites and a Hexblade dip. Alternatively, mixing it with Swashbuckler for sustained DPR or maybe Fighter if you wanted to go max burst is also viable.
Friendly heads up that College of Creation can use Performance of Creation to make costly spell components, with no limit by level 14. This makes expensive spells like heroes feast, simulacrum, and all of the resurrection spells COMPLETELY FREE. You also essentially get non-concentration flight by level 6, and that flying object can deal damage and reduce movement speed. It pairs amazing with the "slow" spell, which was added to the bard spell list in Tashas.
There are also the more mundane benefits of Performance of creation. Creating walls out of nowhere, up to huge size by level 14 (and at level 14 this can be an adamantine wall, since you don't have a price limit). you can block off doorways, create full cover, or use it as a poor man's baby wall of force. Handy in a fight or a getaway.
Performance of creation also creates handy adventuring gear, siege weapons, or impromptu vehicles. Slap a chariot on your paladin's "find steed". Cross a moat in style with your handy portable boat. etc. College of creation has quickly risen to become my favorite bard subclass for these reasons. I highly encourage playing one when you get the chance.
I will be playing one in a campaign set in the 1920's cant wait to make cars.
Think it's really cool that the Valor and Lore bards, the PHB ones, are tied. Pretty good balancing of the Bard's inherent weaknesses, either through proficiencies or extra spells.
I can agree that Spirits isn't the best bard from an optimization standpoint. But it's such an interesting subclass to bring to the table. Tales from Beyond is practically always useful and feels like you're turning your Inspiration points into 1/2nd level spells. And sitting your friends down to do a divination séance will always be dope. Call it a C-tier for power, but it's an S-Rank for fun and flavor.
Wasn't mentioned, but one of the best parts about Glamour is that when creatures gain the temp HP, they can then use a reaction to move without provoking opportunity attacks. This is very useful for battlefield control, almost on par with the 6th level spell Scatter, but they can do it multiple times starting from 3rd level. Having seen Glamour in action, I'm surprised it wasn't an A.
I did mention it, but you're correct I should have discussed the value of that more. Was just playing a couple weeks ago where the glamor bard gave the party a chance to move out of a blade barrier before taking damage. You can also provide movement to someone in a web before they make their saving throw for entanglement.
I did this in a recent one shot. We were in a bad situation, our melee were all out of range and the NPC we were supposed to protect was surrounded. I used this and the battlefield suddenly shifted to our advantage immediately. No one actually needed those temporary hit points.
Chris, if you have dared to rate the classes, you may want to stick your ratings to the left of the grades, but still visible. I think it would give some depth to your subclass rankings and allow for an increased idea of what the subclasses add or subtract from the base classes, from your opinion. Great job. Can’t wait to see the rest. Thank you.
I believe I've seen builds that go paladin 2-6, Whispers Bard X before. Expending a bardic inspiration die on a crit will be a rare but potent effect to stack with a smite.
Can’t you do a similar thing with the swords bard though?
@@SilverKarlov you can, but it doesn't add nearly as much damage as Psychic Blade
I believe your description of the Mantle of Inspiration as "solid" undersells the feature quite a bit. In my opinion it is exceptional. The temp hit points are very nice but the key feature is the ability to move your allies around the battlemap without provoking opportunity attacks. On multiple occasions I've been able to completely rearrange the battle layout with this feature, allowing the squishier party members, or those about to die, to move out of harm's way and putting the beefier party members right in the thick of the battle. With this, being ambushed by enemies is not nearly as dangerous as without. This feature has often turned very tricky battles into ones that are much more manageable. There's not a general in the entire history of war who wouldn't have loved to have had this ability to effect the field of battle.
I loved my glamour bard
I really like this series, thanks for taking it on!
I think a nice choice for College of Swords would be to add the thrown weapon style from Tashas. I don't know that it's a better/more powerful choice, but I do think it's on theme for the subclass. Gotta throw those knives at the beautiful creature assistant tied to a wheel, after all.
My dm let me take superior technique and I paired it with Martial adept for a really fun build.
Throwing Knife Bard =Thomdril Merrilin the Gleeman??
Was really looking forward to this because Bard is my favorite class! :)
@@kel8923 I actually kind of like their "silly" flavor of singing or in a broader term performing to boost the morale of their allies. More importantly, though, I just really like their playstyle of being the ultimate supporter and one of the best "Buffers" in the game. In addition to that they're the best Skill Users, esspecially when it comes to "Social Skills". On a more personal note the class helped me discover that I'm not the introvert I believed myself to be but actually an extrovert.
Yeah, having played a Bard for a bit it really felt great to shine out of combat and make the party shine in combat
@@kel8923 I usually re-flavor my bards for the same reason you mention - don't feel the guitar magic stuff either. BUT, one of my favorite characters was a bard that I called a shaman / witch doctor. So, she did chants and such instead of singing in bars or whatever.
Great stuff as always, Chris
Appreciated
I think that you grossly underestimated how strong the College of Spirits is. Automatically gaining guidance allows the bard to increase all around support; and is the only one that can cast it at range. The Tales table isn't really strong for damage, but the utility and support it provides is vast and diverse. Plus, it's options and dice scale with level, which is huge. 3d12 damage/healing with inspiration on demand is great. Getting to pull any divination or necromancy spell up to level 6, including cantrips, is huge! In addition to summoning and debuffing, this also allows you to grab any of the divination ritual spells. Why do people sleep on how insanely strong and useful this subclass is?!
I pretty much agree with your overall ranking of the bards, including lore bard, but I would point out a few things:
- For all bards, defense is a little less of a problem after tasha's. Fey touched feat, race-choice flexibility, added spells (mirror image!), mean that the bard has better defensive options. Of course there are opportunity costs to any of those options, but still - that is a lot more flexibility. Defense is still an issue for non-valor bards, but it is easier for a bard to get by now, at least for a while, without medium armor + shield proficiency.
- Cutting words is pretty nice to help out with defense at early levels, and when that aspect of it stops being good, you can still nerf the most dangerous enemy's initiative without any save. It can also be paired with some interesting spell options later. Telekinesis + cutting words, for example (note: skill checks bypass legendary resistance) - and that all blends nicely with jack of all trades, as well as (eventually) peerless skill.
- I mentioned this in a reply below, but not all tables are composed of very tactical players who are going to make great use of the bardic inspiration you give them. Sometimes cutting words will be your most practically effective use of BI, simply for that reason.
Not sure that all of this makes lore bard greater than B tier... Maybe B+ / A- ?
I agree with your overall assessment that lore bard is very good, and also overrated at the same time. (I have seen many people argue it is the best / in the top 5 subclasses, which is definitely an exaggeration.)
In AL I see bard insp die wasted time and time again - over half, it feels like. Players tend to forget they have them.
Lore is the most bard-y bard than most other subclasses, except Eloquence. Whereas other subclasses aim for more versatility - usually more melee-friendly. But if you're going for that classic non-combat gets-by-on-their-wits bard Lore was your best choice until Tasha's.
Gotta say: right off the rip, I love seeing one of my favorite RUclipsrs advertising for a product by another of my favorite RUclipsrs!
You forgot to mention that feats are not free
But he did in the opening explanation; feats aren't free and often are more powerful then a character's class features.
I really like Cutting Words for its ability to target enemy Ability Checks. It's already been mentioned that you can target an enemy's Initiative check, but it's also good for enemies caught in certain spells. If someone in your party has Web, Phantasmal Force, Bones of the Earth, or some other spells, you can help make the spells more reliable for your team.
Wahoo! Swords Bard not low tier, I can die now ..
A sigh of relief, although TM is right: it really, really wants to multiclass. One or two levels in Paladin or Hexblade on a SB is 🔥
@@cultivatedjerk5574 How about one Hexblade for the CHA-based weapon use (or perhaps two for some Invocations), and two paladin to gain Smite? I realize this means you're going to lose a feat or ability increase, but it would also mean you only really need to increase CHA ... even for melee combat. And I really, really like the idea of that one particular warlock cantrip for my bard who's got essentially nothing for ranged attacks otherwise ...
@@cultivatedjerk5574 while I certainly don't think it sounds like a bad idea, I do wonder what makes it such a powerful option. Obviously lock makes it possible to attack with cha, but you're still gonna want that dex for AC..
Paladin makes more sense to me due to divine smites being an option.
@@morganpetros9635 don't you need 13 str for paladin?
@@flimpeenflarmpoon1353 Yes, but so what? If you're going to use heavy armor, you can basically turn DEX into a dump stat. In fact, you'll probably need to in order to *WEAR* heavy armor in the first place (minimum STR for plate mail is 15) ... unless your bard/paladin/warlock character is a dwarf ...
Loved playing glamour bard for dungeon of the mad mage. Enthralling performance was especially effective in diplomacy situations.
For multiclassing, consider great old one warlock for telepathy so you don’t have to worry about a language barrier for your command option or for spells like suggestion. The level 14 ability is really good here and saved my butt on several occasions. Really fun to play as a rock bard.
Playing a Goliath Glamour Bard right now. It really is a super fun and powerful subclass.
I think there's a bit of inconsistency when considering multi-classing. It was only really mentioned for College of Sword, where it is ofc a notable addition, but I would say that College of Whispers pairs really well with a 3 level dip in Rogue, especially Assassin; you're getting additional expertise, sneak attack die, thieves cant, cunning action and your assassinate ability. This not only compliments some of the mechanical strengths of Bards (utility, proficiencies, etc), but also leans into the thematic strength of the subclass, which is (I think) very rogue adjacent. Moreover, they blend together nicely, with a mix of sneak attack and psychic blades keeping pace nicely with a rogues actual sneak attack progression. Is it finite unlike sneak attack? Sure. But is it a worthwhile trade off to be a full caster? I would say so, especially considering you're getting to match the damage output of a full rogue of similar level for only a 3 level investment while being a full caster that can make up for many of the other rogue abilities with levels and levels of magic. This allows you to fight like a Rogue when you want to, and hang back and be a support caster the rest of the time without really compromising too much on either. Not played the built yet, but I have one statted out and I reckon it's pretty solid 😊
Something to remember when you mentioned the Lore Bard additional skills is that Jack of All Trades can actually be less than half for quite a while. So I think the skill proficiencies are still pretty good on Bard.
Damn I really thought Eloquence would be S. Guess Tashas Clerics are really that good lol
I didn't expect Eloquence to be S, just because Treantmonk's definition of S-tier subclasses are subclasses that actually break the game, where the DM might need to tell their player not to play a subclass, or reign in the use of some of their features. I can't really see a DM actually banning or reigning in the power level of an Eloquence bard (unless they're banning/reigning in the power level of a lot of other subclasses too).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath Not Being able to Fail a Check is Bannable offense in some (if not most) tables.
@@DonRaynor I haven't actually seen a table ban people from playing rogue, for what it's worth.
That is why I thought creation would be S tier. He assumes the DM will take care of it, but not for the clerics? That seems odd to me, as animating enemy armor and creating free spell components for glyph of warding or heroes feast are less broken then the peace cleric teleport thing.
@@skymanta1222 I say chron for sure. Clockwork I think he will put A, not S.
Thanks for the guide. I'm playing a lore bard and find it tough to beat. The ability to essentially use a reaction to turn a hit into a miss on a reaction is pretty amazing. I think you may have it undervalued here as you get to use it as a reaction, which at low to mid tier level play, you don't often get to use. The fact that you get magical secrets at 6 allows you to get counterspell early as well some other great spells to fill out your party. You make a great case for Eloquence, and perhaps I should have considered it more, but I think the value of it is somewhat reduced as you can get your inspiration die back after a short rest and assuming you have an 18 or 20 CHA by level 8, 5 die is a good amount. As a lore bard, I can't wait for my DM needing to play mind games with me trying to force my cutting words just to avoid me using counterspell on their big baddy. I get that you also get magical secrets at 10, but there are so many amazing spells and having 2 more open to you is pretty amazing.
I can't wait for the cleric list!
I hadn't really played a Bard yet, but I think Eloquence would make a fun LE scuzzy lawyer type character (probably with the Criminal Background) having to bail the party out of trouble with his quick wit, sharp tongue, and perhaps a few creative interpretations of the truth. The kind of guy who had sold out any kind of ethics long ago, and hires his talents out to the highest bidder - the kind of people with vast fortunes in ill gotten gains and in need of his unique services to protect them.
Can you make an Eloquence bard build? I would like to see what spells you would choose with Unsettling Words
Can we just point out for a moment that with the Spirits subclass you have a 1 in 8 chance to automatically incap a target (provided they suck at wisdom saves)? The odds aren't great but the fact that there's a chance for that to happen is kinda spooky.
I'm a sucker for a random table roll ;)
Ooooh, I love Bards! Honestly, I think they might be the best class in DnD. Although I do think some of the subclasses for other strong classes are better than the best bard subclasses. That said, I think Bard is a better multiclass than most of those. I pretty much agree with your rankings, although I do think Glamour is actually better, and probably A tier, if for no other reason than granting that reaction movement without provoking opportunity attacks. So useful for getting people out of sticky situations, or letting the tank block off a doorway or something. Really, I could see Glamour, Lore, and Valour all being A with Eloquence. I'd probably also put Whispers above Spirits, but I haven't played with Spirits so I can't really say.
If multiclassing is allowed the college of whispers mixes well with a hexblade
It works out like a psychic smite short rest monster with at least 5/5 levels
I'm interested in trying out the College of Glamour, besides dealing with their low AC issue, what else would you suggest for optimizing one?
You also want to improve your concentration saving throws. Aside from that, bards are versatile so it is hard to say.
If you want to focus more on support / buffing and don’t mind an early single level MC, a very simple but effective approach would be starting as Divine Soul sorcerer (take bless, shield, and absorb elements) then go bard.
You will be one level behind, but you’ll have full spell slot progression, so make sure to take some spells that, like bless, upcast well (aid is a must, but also consider invisibility, etc.)
Mountain dwarf or Tortle would set you up for decent AC and 17 Cha, so you can take fey touched at character level 5 (pick up gift of alacrity if your DM allows it), and then maxing charisma at level 9.
Upsides: good utility with lots of cantrips from three spell lists, good concentration saves, lots of defensive spells and abilities, and a bunch of ways to support your party.
Obvious downside that you will be one level behind on high level spell selection and bard class features. Also, you will be less effective if your party already includes a lot of ways to generate temporary HP (if that’s the case I would suggest going with a different bard subclass)
Personally I find Mantle of inspiration to be the glamour bard’s best feature, so synergizing with that is my top priority. You can reposition allies (or yourself) in combat without provoking opportunity attacks (but at the cost of your allies’ reactions). This makes you a little better at control than other bards as you can get your allies out of the way for a hypnotic pattern or move them up to priority targets after casting it. So you can potentially get optimal use of big control spells more easily. The Alert feat couples well with this ability (though your allies won’t be able to use reactions if surprised), as you’ll always be able to use the ability early. The Fey-touched feat (taking Gift of Alacrity) is a great option as well for optimal positioning, as you can boost your initiative, maneuverability (with a free misty step), and charisma at the same time (Charisma also affects how many allies you can target with the Mantle).
Because of your awesome positioning abilities, you can potentially neglect your AC a bit more than other bards, but I’d recommend getting a 16 in dex to start, if possible. This will help your AC as well as your initiative, obviously. A single dip in hexblade at level 6 or so will solve AC problems, as well.
Also, the Glamour bard from a role play perspective is very alluring and charming, so you might want to take spells to boost that. Suggestion, disguise self, charm person and enhance ability really help to get away with all kinds of social mischievousness, and really make this bard fun to play. I personally went with changeling, and the cons and schemes are out of control (in a good way). Also, the Aid spell can stack with your mantle of inspiration to create a wall of hit points on your team. Inspiring Leader does not, however, so you will want to skip that feat.
For magical secrets, control spells like wall of force/thorns/find greater steed all will help with positioning/control (and a Pegasus can help influence a lot of people into trusting you).
I'm rolling it in CoS as a Bardlock (currently Bard 5/Warlock 1 because of story progression).
It's really fun and over the next two levels the build will peak with Agonizing Blast and Mantle of Majesty (EB+AB is perfect to supplement the bonus action Command).
I went with Archfey for the theme but Hexblade would probably be the most 'optimized' choice.
You are delaying spell progression and Magical Secrets but having a solid Cantrip and a few more utility/damage spells plus recharchable first level spell slots (great with Shield with Hexblade) can be great fun.
Overall Glamour is a fun subclass, Mantle of Inspiration has been super clutch so far and really makes you feel like a conductor on the battlefield.
Glamour Bards do get a great defensive feature if you play into high level. Basically make a save, or I'm too beautiful to attack.
I thought that the subclasses from Galder’s Gazetteer would be included in this series but you explained in the Barbarian video that you’d be covering officially released subclasses first. I know it’s a fairway off, but would you discuss 3rd party subclasses and classes down the line?
Thanks Treantmonk, great videos.
Title says subclasses ranked but it feels more like classes ranked with subclasses applying a small variance. If the base class is good it will get a high ranking regardless of subclass. A low ranking class will get a relatively low ranking regardless of subclass.
Don't get me wrong it's still super informative. And it does give you a picture of the quality of the different classes.
He talked about how since the dungeon dudes analyzed subclasses without the classes, he wanted to analyze the subclasses with the classes as part of them.
@@Johnrobertx Good to know. I do like seeing the overall comparison. I suppose I'm just nitpicking to be honest. I don't want to come off as someone trolling. Having said that, it would make more sense to be titled. Bard class/subclasses rankings.
My favorite was a lw 6 eloquence bard/ lw 7-14 fire genie warlock.
Start with lw1 bard - then lw7 warlock - then lw6 bard - then rest warlock
(Face/Infiltration) Have actor feat + mask of many faces + misty visions to be high class illusionist and manipulator + eloquence bard + expertise in Deception and perception ( Rank S)
(Scouting ) Pact of the chain imp to scout situation + high perception from expertise (Rank A)
(Utility)-Even you your skills are not in History or arcane or religion you do have useful skills (Comp Languages, Detect magic, Identify) And jack of all trades for a little boost (Rank B)
(Dps) Fireball for low lw crowds(Slots from bard and Warlock) + Concentrated damage from Eldritch blast and summon aberration while flying (Rank A)
(Control) Class has good combo ,Unsettling Words + Silvery barbs + Hold person/ Raulothim's Psychic Lance to almost guarantee a success on a boss. (Rank A)
(Survivability) You are not a tank but you do have Armor of agahtis + fly from genie + Misty step to avoid damage (Rank B)
(Support) Class does not have good support but you can give healing potions if if party has goodberry to imp for easy heals for dropped players and bardic inspiration (Rank C)
Indestructoboy did a great analysis of the eloquence bard. I kind of agree with his assessment. The subclass breaks the social pillar of play and suffers from feature bloat. Thoughts?
Eloquence breaks saving throws, buffs one of the strongest baseline features in the game, and breaks the social pillar to pieces at a shockingly low level. I'd bump all the bards he ranked up a tier and flip valor and lore, and put Eloquence in a well deserved S ranking. It's the bottom of the S tier, which honestly shocks me, but it's there.
Another great installation in the series! I learn something new in every one. I appreciate the focus on the commentary and less detailed review of every feature. Sure, the rankings are subjective, but to debate for the fun of it: Valor bard came out ahead largely due to proficiency in medium armor and shields. I get that multi-classing complicates the situation, but ... a 1 level dip in a number of classes would give any of the bard subclasses these proficiencies and more (e.g Con save proficiency + fighting style for Fighter dip). So I suggest that a subclass ability that could be gained from a 1 level dip be weighted less than those that can't.
Not sure why? The uniqueness of an ability doesn't dictate its effectiveness. The VB's proficiencies are highly effective and free, which pushes other classes to multi-class for 1 level in order to keep pace, but then this costs those classes heavily in spell progression.
The Bard is a full caster. Anything that pushes it to deviate from being a better full caster is by definition suboptimal.
I would enjoy a video about your experience with the Whispers bard. Having played it, you could give some helpful suggestions regarding feats and spells that complement the class. Two- weapon fighting build, actor, Eldritch Adept? Would love to hear options for an optimized low tier sub-class.
I have been screaming about how underrated the glamour bard is. I have been playing a tabaxi glamour bard for the past year and my guy has been the most powerful support character I have ever seen at a table
Could you make video about MCDM's ILLRIGGER class? I would like to hear your opinion
Currently playing a Tiefling Valor Bard 5 / Genielock 2 in Rime of the Frostmaiden and the massive AC increase of Medium armour + shield to a character with 14 dex has given me the highest AC in the party. I've always got a use for my action and bonus action, I get a lot of resources back on a short rest (and song of rest makes those short rests more enticing for the whole party) and I've got cleric AC with a full powered Eldritch Blast and Green-flame blade for if I choose to enter melee. Very strong combination and I think the extra durability from Valor really seals the whole build
Lore's definitely a tier. If you can "dip" into magical secrets you can do amazing things. Like a ranged fighter that can shoot 4 times with swift quiver at level 10 and with sharpshooter you annihilate, all at level 10.
Kinda off topic, but what do you think about taking metamagic adept as a bard just for subtle spell for use in social situations?
It would be cool for assassin, subtle spell suggestion and convince the guards, the king has been replaced by a changeling and you have been sent to kill it.
It would be greatly appreciated if you could put the abilities that you don’t talk about on screen while you gloss them over. I always feel obligated to check the abilities you ignore.
I personally love college of lore. Fixes pretty much all the problems with bards by giving magical secrets both earlier and more often than other bards.
You didnt mention that at lv 6 Spirit bard gets to add 1d6 to any damage or healing they put out.
For the Seance spell, if you cant afford another concentration spell in summon undead, taking Toll the Dead off the seance is a great way to get a consistent ranged damage option without much cost.
Thank you.
Would buffing Psychic Blades by adding an effect push Whispers up?
I didn't appreciate how powerful the Valor Bard's medium armor plus shield benefit was until I played a bard for the first time. The Dungeon Master was running a module where the players get ambushed by giant badgers; I somehow survived 4 attacks when the average result should have seen me knocked out. I was determined to go Lore Bard though, so I grabbed a level of Knowledge Cleric to obtain the medium armor and shield (Protector Aasimar of Milil).
I was initially delighted with my choice, until I discovered how painful my level 5 would be due to not knowing level 3 spells. The only reason my bard didn't become ignorable was the acquisition of a Wand of Lightning Bolts.
rpgbot made an excellent point that instead of taking valor bard you could just dip a single level as hex warlock and using booming blade would outscale the two attacks
I might have missed it in the video somewhere but did you say why you wouldn’t cover 14th level abilities in depth? Just wondering if it was time constraints, just to far in the game to matter, etc. thanks!
He said he would be weighting the lower-level features more heavily than the higher-level ones because they're active through much more of gameplay -- even if your table does play to level 20, which many don't.
Great listing. Lore is just so powerful at 6th level on top of just Cutting Words on initiative rolls. You want a bard with an army? Learn Conjure Animals. You want a bard with Cleric awesomeness? Learn Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon. And as you mentioned, a great summoning spell could work out well here too. If you're worried about defense, i'd dip 1 lvl into Sorcerer just to grab Shield and Absorb elements, or 1 lvl Hexblade to get Shield and medium armor and shield proficiency. Both good ways to get good defense with just 1 lvl and additional spells.
Eloquence bards are insane. I played one and good lord, he was a monster in and out of combat. The bonus action debuff on enemy saves is simply absurd.
Valor bard makes for an excellent bow user, being able to eventually take swift quiver from ranger
I think Swords Bard was underrated, here. I agree with the B ranking considering the subclass on its own (though not its placement in that rank). However, I think it's one of those subclasses that boosts another class up by multiple tiers, like Hexblade Warlock, but with more investment and return. Considering just the multi-classing potential alone, I might've given it top of A-tier, which would've made me increase the overall rank of the subclass to somewhere in A rank. Great video.
Last (very small) point in defense of lore bard: it is worth noting that you get the bonus proficiencies at the same level that bard gets expertise. So, even if it is a little weird narratively, you can jump from unskilled to expert in two skills of your choice, that you did not select at character creation.
Level 3 is a nice place for that to happen - assuming you start at level 1, by level 3 you should have a good sense of what other players bring to the table (literally) in terms of skills. You may also have some sense of which skills, if any, might be unusually valuable for the campaign setting, which may not have been obvious when you made the character.
lore bard: "at level 14, we get...an okay ability." I'm slightly triggered by this. Peerless skill is VERY powerful. Win initiative (probably)? check. Counterspell/dispel pretty much anything with a 3rd level spell slot and an insp. die? check. Practically guarantee a skill check succeeds? check. The only issue with the ability is that you don't have enough inspiration dice to go around once you get it, because the situations in which peerless skill is incredible happen ALL THE TIME. Better hope for short rests.
I would argue that it's one of the best lvl 14 abilities for bard behind eloquence, glamour's is also quite good.
Let's compare it to valor's battle magic for example: valor gets to do like...1d8+4 with a bonus action after casting a spell...at level 14. One of these abilities is very very good, the other is...kinda bad.
I picked on valor a bit here because IMO their 14th level ability is the worst of any bard subclass (maaaaybe whispers is worse because it's rather narrow?). But I do think Valor is still a very good subclass, mainly single classed at low-mid levels. I'm honestly just trying to give peerless skill the shine it deserves as it's also a "banger" IMO.
Not trying to be adversarial here, just wanted to express my opinion in the form of a very wordy youtube comment lol, cheers. FWIW, I found my lore bard to be quite weak early on, one of the weakest characters I've ever played from 1-5(sleep helps early on), but gets much better at 6...like much much stronger. Just having 2 extra spells known ends up being massive in giving you flexibility as a caster. As you get more and more spell slots the difference feels very pronounced.
The level 14 lore bard ability basically lets you use a bardic inspiration die on yourself (except not on your saving throws or attack rolls). It's really good if nobody else in the party has initiative as important as yours. It's really good if nobody else in the party has counterspell.
But if you do have good party members, party members with counterspell, party members that would benefit from a bonus to initiative rolls, you can just hand out your bardic inspiration dice to them, and you're not losing too much if you don't have the lore bard level 14 ability. The bardic inspiration dice will still get plenty of value.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath One thing that is easy for tactical players to overlook is that bardic inspiration requires that your teammates are approaching the game with the same level of tactical tactical awareness. I don't mean for that to sound arrogant or snotty; there's nothing wrong with playing less tactically. But I have played a bard at tables where players would forget to use inspiration (even with gentle reminders) or - even worse - would squander them.
So, having ways fully within your power to use bardic inspiration (cutting words, peerless skill) can be nice for that reason, as well.
Well stated.
The one caveat I'd add to Cutting Words is that its value goes up if you play with idiots. I use it, usually, to protect concentration on an ally who decides to rush into melee while concentrating on something important. If you play with window lickers, it's clutch.
Both looking forward to, and dreading, the Cleric episode. It's my favorite class, and I know there are some broken features. I won't even roll up either of the two new ones.
I hope WOTC fixes the clerics with Tashas errata in 2022 because I hate disallowing subclasses and would rather not mess with untested home-brew tweaks.
@@bigdream_dreambig I so agree. Cleric is my favorite overall class, and I love the concept of both the Peace and Twilight domains. But, appreciating how they break things, I can't bring myself to even ask a DM to let me run one. Hell, even my current plain Jane, straight out of the box Tempest Cleric is a dominating presence in our group. It takes away from the fun if I have to pull back, just to let other players have a role.
Do you guys think that 3 dips in swords bard may round up a gish build? Cause I definitely going to throw that into my bladesinger xD
I agree that the Glamour Bard is underrated. I even found a way for Enthralling Performance to be used effectively in battle. Never shut up. Always have your bard performing at all times. This can get annoying. It's meant to. Don't annoy your fellow players by constantly performing, but make it clear that your character is always on. Telling joke, playing music, dancing, etc. If the potential enemies hear you coming from a mile away you can immediately activate Enthralling Performance the moment a disagreement breaks out because you've been performing for them to hear for more than a minute.
I think Cutting Words was underrated here. My bard almost never used them on himself. The paladin and barbarian are going to be needing them when we fight Storm Giants. I can't always been turning them into a Giant Ape!
Awesome!
Have you ever considered doing an audio drop for podcast listeners?
B is for bard.
great vid, but oh boy buckle up for next time >.< are you going to do ALL the clerics in one video or break it up into two?
All in one. It's obviously a bit longer.
Bard's are my favorite class it hurts so much seeing you put most of the subclasses as mid. Also the Lore bard is insanely good should probably be up there alongside Eloquence bard
Which subclass better for hex-bardloc?
3rd level can create magic materials for free/2nd spell slot and can create tools or items. In combat you can make obstacles for your opponents or just put them in a box. Animated object can slow enemies down automagically and allow you to out speed anything as you can jump on your flying carpet.
Creation can easily beat anything it comes across without fail making it S+ tier
About the Glamour bard being underused (and other subclasses like it, such as archfey warlock and enchantment wizard) I feel like a lot of it has to do with the community in general undervaluing charming and enchantment as a valid defensive option. Which isn't to say it's perfect, but it's a lot more useful than what most optimization circles seem to let on.
I played a Glamour Bard for a long while, and never found the charming abilities particularly useful. What WAS insanely useful was the bonus action "all my allies can move without getting attacked and get a big chunk of THP" five times per short rest.
@@shanebernier2483 command not so much, but if you’re in a diplomacy situation and your bard is allowed to play a little ‘background’ music, enthralling performance can really pay dividends.
Glamour Bard has always seemed like the best subclass for a Bard-barian. As the Mantle can affect yourself and be used while raging. Plus Enthalling Performance is great utility and thematic.
more money for TREANTMONK
I'm wondering it there will be any S tier at all. I thought Treantmonk put Eloquence as the best character option over all, beating out wizards.
Treantmonk, do you think it’s worth grabbing a level of hexblade warlock on a non-valor bard to get access to medium armour, shields, and the shield spell? I think it seems like the perfect way to mitigate some of the issues with the bard’s defences.
He replied elsewhere that delaying spellcasting 1 or 2 levels is a significant trade in power so you are bringing something very different to the table in terms of role.
I personally think hex 2 is smart and very optimal for most bard builds.
@@BreakingStarGames That's fair. I think the 1 level difference isn't huge enough to outweigh the +11 or so AC you would have access to from the dip. I mean, a lot of wizards start with a level in artificer for a similar (admittedly better) benefit, but having access to the shield spell - never mind the armour and shield - on a bard seems HUGE to me.
Primary casters dipping into another class, especially early, is entirely campaign and context dependant. If a campaign or DM is pressuring the party with immediate survival, dipping into survivability and utility is more valuable, since there's no guarantee that character or party will actually live long enough to see the difference in arrival of those big spell tiers in the first place, and especially not if they are risking it all on the Fighter not missing more than twice in an encounter. In those circumstances, grabbing a level or two of Hexblade, Artificer, Barbarian, maybe Fighter, or, heaven forbid, Mercy Monk might make the caster overall tough enough, with good enough extra options, to keep both themselves and the party alive more than the standard caster progression might in the short term.
If it's a game where you're just making level 10 or such characters, or are coasting by on easy encounters, generous loot tables, or tailored magic items, it's generally not worth your smooth and fast progression to the good stuff, but if tenth level, good gear, and easy encounters are seeming further and further away with each session, grabbing that boost can relieve a lot of pressure and stress off the party.
How do you go to a minimum 20 with an eloquence bard ? (10+2 (proficiency) +2 (expertise) +4 (charisma) and ?
Is Eloquence our first top 5 subclass? It feels pretty borderline for S-tier. After the Chronurgist, Peace, Twilight, and Clockwork Soul, what else is even in contention for S-tier by these strict standards? The Illusionist? Post-Tasha's Shepard? Aberrant Mind? War Mage? I'm really excited to see how the exact order of the top and bottom 10 compares to my own opinions when this is all done.
Wouldn't be illusionist considering their most potent ability comes in at such high level, and a premise of these videos is down-valuing abilities that come in at levels that people barely play.
I imagine TM will rank most high tier wizard subclasses over it but I would disagree with that. As good as wizards are, they don't break bounded accuracy to force monsters to fail their saves.
@@BreakingStarGames Yeah, after this video, I seriously doubt we'll see more than four things in S-tier, total.
Chris, maybe you don't think much of it and I know you have a lot to cover, but you totally glossed over the second part of the Glamour's Mantle of Inspiration feature. All creatures receiving the temp HP can move up to their speed w/o opportunity attacks. When a Bard starts getting the dice back on a short rest, you can use this multiple time during an encounter hand have your party flying around the battle field.
Elemental monk: a banger
I am surprised there was only one A-tier subclass; I expected Bard to have a few A-tiers (I did expect no S-tiers--I expect only Chronurgist Wizard, Peace Cleric, and Twilight Cleric only in S-tier). Makes me wonder what will be in A-tier (other than wizards). If Glamour is alone in A tier I'm not sure I predict any of the clerics in A-tier (they'll be either B-tier or below, or S-tier for Peace/Twilight).
College of Whispers--I do recognize it's not that good, but I do think it has a niche! If your goal is just a paladin multiclass with the maximum possible smites.... Psychic Blades offers up to 5 short rest "smites", while also having full spellcasting progression. You can also stack smite and psychic blades on the same attack. Compare this to how much people hype warlock for getting two short-rest smite slots (and no spellcasting table progression). Ultimately, is having the maximum possible smites per day actually the strongest way to build a bard? No. But it's a niche! Comes up whenever anyone comes to me with an anime concept like one punch man where they want to stack as much damage as possible in a single hit.
Have you ever thought of doing a video about the best choices for Bard’s Magical Secrets?
Did a video for every level of magical secrets. If you do a youtube search you'll see them
I’m so glad you have a more reasonable tier ranking system than dungeon dudes their tier lists make everything seem good which is just wrong
I'd put Whispers a little higher on my own scale, and it's only because it's got better DPR potential than the other bards. Booming Blade+Psychic Blades is the best damage you can do up to level 5, and then from levels 10-20, particularly when combined with Conjure Fey.
Each video gets us closer to ultimate knowledge.
Heh
What RAW ways could performance of creation be broken prior to the lifting of the gold limitation?
animating an enemy's armor.
@@TreantmonksTemple isn't that animating performance with the pet?
My favorite combat i rolled with a bard was with my 7th level mark of healing halfling college of swords bard. He was fighting in a tournament and entered because he heard a rumor that the champion of the ring, a paladin, was cheating through some unknown means. Magic was allowed as long as it wasn't enchantment or summoning magic and i figured by exposing him as well as winning the tournament it would drum up a lot of attention in the city for the circus my bard was ringmaster of. To note there was a short rest between each match
Round 1 was against a rogue somewhere between 5th-7th level. Pretty easy match. My rapier is enchanted with a booming blade spell that grows with me so between that and my defensive flourishes i barely got touched.
The second round was by far the hardest. I could have finished easily with magic but rumors had it this masked fighter was a true warrior and i wanted to test my mettle; not to mention save my spells for any chicanery the paladin was using to cheat. That decision almost cost me the tournament. Turned out this masked warrior was an 11th level echo knight. I used my power flourish the first turn to kill his echo while laying into him but his attacks were hitting hard. My hp dropped quick and in a panic i knocked him away with a mobile flourish and backpedaled; using my bonus action for aura of vitality. I kited him the remaining 3 turns keeping him just out of range with mobile flourish and wracking up the damage with booming blade while i took the time to recover then bit the bullet and dove in when my inspirations ran out. His first attack broke concentration on aura of vitality but i had healed up just barely enough and i took him down with 2hp left.
Round 3 was against one of my party members who made it to the semis, a fairy barbarian who was the strongman in our circus. I bribed him with a real fight later as well as the prize money the to take a dive after explaining there was no way he'd be able to detect the champions cheating if it was magical. We made the fight look good and ended it with me tossing him out of the ring for a ring out. His wings were hidden so the crowd didnt know he could fly.
Then the finals against the paladin. A talked a bit of trash to him to get him riled up and ensure he'd cheat against the little halfling that dared mock him. He went first and immediately tried to cast command on me, ordering me to surrender. I of course counterspelled it then in retaliation put on a dazzling show for the crowd by trapping him in a hypnotic pattern. I then took the minute i had to weave a tale of treachery as i extolled the champion's crimes sullying the good name of the arena and that if the crowd wanted to see true trickery and theatre they were all welcome to visit our circus for a glorious time. I then drew my rapier, slammed the cheater with a mobile flourish, and launched him over the wall and out of the ring to land hard in the water below; my guarunteed critical from hypnotic pattern ensuring i could launch him the distance to clear the arena.
Cutting words can be broken, you roll the die and subtract it from the number rolled, this means the face of the die basically changes, so you can turn crits into non crits with it, maybe even misses.
The only problem is that knowing when something would crit is either impossible due to the DM screen or Metagaming ina pvp scenario for example.
I find 1 level of sorcerer patches a lot of holes in the bard spell list. You get an attack cantrip, grease, shield, not to mention con save proficiency
Treantmonk (or others with ideas), you mention multiclassing bard to help cover the lack of defensive options. I frankly hadn't thought of doing this. What would you suggest as good basic options? Obviously, one level in wizard / sorcerer gets you shield and absorb elements, but you still don't get misty step unless you go 3 levels. Of course, you can get misty step at lvl 4 with a feat, so 1 level of sorcerer and fey touched at lvl 4 could work. Do you have other / better ideas? Thanks, love the content as always!
1 level in hexblade gets you medium armor, shield, and the Shield spell. It also means you make any (one-handed melee) weapon attacks using Charisma, so booming blade becomes a better damage cantrip than vicious mockery.
1 Hexblade is the obvious selection, though you could do 1 of any other class with medium armor and shield proficiency like Cleric or Fighter as well.
@@utkarshgaur1942 Yeah, thanks. I saw some of the comments below discussing this. I was debating between warlock and sorcerer, but I think you are right, warlock gives more. I'm building one now using var human to give me the extra feat for fey touched. Interestingly, you can use hex as the free spell, which frees up warlock spell slots for shield usage. I also think it is worth it to go 2 lvls in warlock (unfortunately, lol) for the eldritch mind invocation.
Others were talking about paladin, but that does not seem worth it to me. Just my two cents, I'm sure others would use it just fine tho.
College of Eloquence has been banned on sight by all my groups DMs and is actually our only official subclass we don't use; the players agree that each feature is incredibly powerful on their own and as a whole package it is too much. Silver Tongue isn't necessarily broken (although depending on DM philosophy it can be) but it probably comes in at too low a level. Not only can you use it more often, but lower level encounters tend to be more easily determined by a persuasion or deception check. It wouldn't be too hard to tone things down a bit but I don't think anyone in our group had a problem with playing an Orator in the Colleges of Lore or Glamour.
I like the College of Swords a lot and am looking forward to playing it once my roommate starts her Spelljammer campaign. Sure outside of Magical Secrets the Gish list is limited to things like Greater Invisibility, but the strength of the Sword Bard also comes from being more effective while already concentrating on a spell. And although it's not there for most of play, that 14th level feature is underrated as boon to consistent offense, defense, and mobility. Despite being named for Swords, features like your flourishes don't actually specify that they must be melee attacks. Take the Gunner feat from Tasha's you have a firearm with extra attack and flourishes that works as our Spellcasting focus. You can get in close without disadvantage and have the TWF option for your offhand scimitar or some magical light weapon; although Dueling is still useful. You're not going to be a Battlemaster, but you hold your own while having all the great tools of the Bard class for the several pillars of gameplay. A Ranger might have slightly more damage output, but you're a full caster with more skill proficiencies and bonuses: Sword Bard is the best cowboy.
Valor Bards get a more team friendly inspiration, but their extra combat proficiencies aren't as big as they seem. For weapons we already have the Longsword and Rapier, plus Swords gives the scimitar so bows and polearms are the added options. The shield is where we notice the Spell Focus feature that College of Swords get; a Valor Bard needs to constantly be shifting what they're holding in order to cast and attack. Even if you take Warcaster for your somatic components, you'll need to sheath your weapon and take out your instrument for the Material component of many spells. Not only can that be suboptimal, it's not very fun to keep track of during combat. I suppose a number of tables just wave that off which is nice, but RAW Valor Bard is a bit cumbersome.
"the strength of the Sword Bard also comes from being more effective while already concentrating on a spell. "
That's a really good point.
College of swords does go well with the Dhampir lineage.
👍
I disagree about Cutting Words. When I played a Lore Bard, I used it all the time. It saved mine and my allies lives multiple times. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that you can only use it to protect yourself. If you could only use it to protect yourself, yes, it would be weak as fuck, but you can use it to protect your allies. So, if your cleric is about to get hit, but you roll a six, bringing the enemy's attack roll down to 4 under your Cleric's AC, then you've just saved the party.
"Also at 3rd level, you learn how to use your wit to distract, confuse, and otherwise sap the confidence and competence of others. When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your reaction to expend one of your uses of Bardic Inspiration, rolling a Bardic Inspiration die and subtracting the number rolled from the creature’s roll. You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll or ability check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its damage. The creature is immune if it can’t hear you or if it’s immune to being charmed."
The best use of creation bard I’ve come up with is rock gnome and run a scientist/tinkerer that makes clockwork toys that are big and kill things
A levels three creation bard can create a antimatter rifle that does 6d8 necrotic damage
After all the videos are published I would really like to see the 'behind the curtain' process of the ups and downs of how all this was done as well as insights into your process for what you found most surprising or misconceptions you had that were revealed to you in this process. (Note, I am a high school teacher who often has this type of analysis discussion with colleagues as we teach or study and enjoy the 'how we analyze and understand our world's conversation)
When the series is complete I'll consider where I have interesting enough realizations to make a video, if I do, I will.