While I was Protestant I got into a debate about Sola scriptura with a family friend of my then girlfriend now wife. He was an 80 something year old Colombian priest who barely spoke English. He wiped the floor with me. A few years later I became Catholic and can look back to that as the first of my Protestant planks to be ripped up. 😅
@@TheCordialCatholic His logic was sound (he did study in Rome as well as a Lutheran seminary and spoke like 6 languages), but the most memorable part was also just him saying “Es a stupid” and slapping his head with his hand. I still can hear it to this day. 😂 But seriously though. Monseñor was a brilliant man and I thank God everyday for putting him in my life. He passed away July 14,2021 before I had the chance to tell him I became Catholic. I ask him to pray for me all the time haha.
Wasn’t that devastating? When Sola Scriptura fell apart before my eyes - I was studying Orthodoxy at the time - I was crushed. It was the biggest existential theological crisis I’ve ever gone through. That was almost three years before I was confirmed at the most recent Easter Vigil. Deo gratias!
The fact that Austin is still reviewing Trent Horn content is really cool. He has graduated and got married and is outside the college bubble now having more time to process all this. Its interesting to see how he has grown. If he ever does cross the Tiber I know this host played a big role in that.
Both of you played a big part in my conversion to Catholicism in 2019/20. As a Canadian, I greatly appreciate the politeness and humor you both bring to the world of YT. You’re in my prayers - thank you for spreading God’s love. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🥰🥰
Austin has heard all the arguments so I think we should leave him alone to put the pieces together and stop proselytising. It is better to let him choose for himself what he wants to do.
I’m Orthodox, and my non-account, irrelevant opinion is that it’s about all of us growing toward the Center, Christ, Where we’ll find that heavenly unity in the Kingdom. Dogma, doctrine & practice are important. And some folks will “convert” to this or that. But the real unity we long for - and that the world desperately needs us to have - is beyond words & arguments & histories. It’s in the love of the One Who first loved us. In His Spirit & by Him alone we will come to God-pleasing “oneness of mind” in “the bond of peace.”
@@traceyedson9652Absolutely agree that the whole entire purpose of the Church, the reason for all its dogma, Sacraments, Liturgy and Eucharist is for each of us to be One with Jesus - but not just for our personal unity - but that we can humbly, sacrificially enter into His Mission - the salvation of the world - in whatever small or big way he has blessed us with. And I believe that is why we need a Pope and the rest of the Church hierarchy- not so that you or I can experience Jesus (although what a blessing) but that he can be with us to the end of the age and that His Body would not be fractured.
@@PatrickSteil nice thoughts. Did the apostolic fathers or the general councils dogmatize that? Sounds like an argument/sentiment to back-fill a sectarian position, which is what Orthodoxy has always maintained.
@@traceyedson9652 I have not studied Orthodoxy deeply, but since Orthodoxy was a split around the year 1054 - so 1000 years after Jesus at a time when the Church had been functioning as one Church that was held together by the hierarchy of the Church including the Pope, Bishops and Priests - I would say yes it was dogmatized by Sacred Tradition. Are you ok with the Body of Christ being fractured? Do you not see that this is why the world has lost its mind? There is no truth in the world... and there is no truth in a christian world that is fractured.
The abject beauty of a conversion experience while cooling soup in the snow is so sublime. Where John Wesley found his heart strangely warmed, you found your soup strangely chilled. My conversion-retroversion-to Catholicism was in the car, with my father driving me home from my first job. I don't remember what he said, but it genuinely must have been the Spirit talking, inviting me back.
I would like to see Austin interview Dr John Bergsma on the priesthood (and the papacy) as given to us in Scripture. He explains these things as a first century Jew must have seen them. Keith interviewed Dr Bergsma several years back - his insights are rarely if ever discussed on Protestant blogs. And I’ve yet to hear a Protestant - really address these insights let alone be able to refute Dr Bergsma- indeed his knowledge base is so exhaustive that I think even knowledgeable Catholics are surprised.
Loved Austin's comments about pursuing Christ and the spiritual life as something your choice must foster. So true. And how it all must cohere together (part of the cumulative effect); Doctrine, Liturgy, Prayer life, spiritual life, historical grounding - anything else?
Austin has had lots of great guests from the Orthodox community on his show! I don't think he's interested in "defending" either Orthodoxy or Catholicism but I'm sure he'd be happy to share some of his favourite arguments for Orthodoxy, too.
Love both of your content ❤ I have seriously binge watched both of your channels for a little over a year. When I first started watching, was Protestant, just confirmed in the Catholic Church at this year‘s Easter vigil. So good to be HOME ❤There have certainly been many voices that influenced the journey, but if I’m honest… Austin, yours were some of the first videos I started with. Can’t tell you both how much I appreciate your gracious approach. forever grateful. I Shared the journey on quest for Faith with Bryan a couple weeks ago. 😇 ruclips.net/video/t6FnVuWN_vg/видео.html
@CordialCatholic are you able to connect @Austin with @Gary Michuta would be a blessing to see them interact.@Austin had said in one of his videos he would like to know more about the Canon.
I follow Gospel Simplicity and keep up with Catholic goings-on as an EO. Love all the inter-play! But at 20:44 the rub comes: the Papacy. And I realized that the Gospel according to the RC always ends in the pope. When I talk to folks inquiring into the Orthodox faith it’s not our patriarch or bishop or synod that they’re inquiring into. It’s the faith itself. There are certainly Orthodox who present the faith as “not RC,” but that’s not the center of it, merely an unhappy result of history & schism. I venture to say that no one came over to the church catholic from heterodoxy or schism in the first millennium by being converted to the papacy, or a patriarchate. They embraced the catholic faith in Christ and joined to the local catholic bishop. (I say catholic as the Creed says it, not as “Roman.”) When did the gospel according to the RC include the bishop of Rome and the command (I quote a Catholic podcast from just this last week) to submit to the Roman pontiff”?
I always hear the orthodox argument about being the only one true to the apostles's teaching. I think that pointing to the pope is the same thing which means showing a sort of guarantee to the sole true faith. (What made me convert is mainly the width and richness of spirituality I found and attributed it to the unbroken tradition and the universality of thecatholic church. Of course I looked into theology, too. And yes, I know that Orthodox claim to be the only ones keeping the original apostolic faith.)
The AnteNicene historical evidence for the papacy vs sola Scriptures are NOT on equal playing field. Y'all's conversation did NOT give Clement of Rome and Irenaeus enough credit. Both the context and text of their writings give STRONG EARLY evidence for the papacy, IMHO. Toward the end of his letter, Clement, a successor of Peter, pulls out his authority and says he speaks with the voice of Christ, and Corinth obeys (elevating his letter to Scripture even). Irenaeus, an Easterner, affirms every church must agree with Rome because of its greater authority. Even Ignatius of Antioch gives strong hints of Rome's president and teaching status. So 2 or 3 of the main 4 weigh toward papacy. None of them provide evidence of sola Scriptura, esp not Ignatius or Irenaeus. After debating Ortlund, Trent Horn even did a side by side scorecard of Church/magisterium vs sola Scriptura in the early Church fathers, showing how deficient sola Scriptura is historically to even the Church as an authority.
It’s so easy to slip into the Peter = Rome = Papacy fallacy. Only in Christ will this relevant but tired debate be put to rest. I suspect there will be repentance aplenty from all parties in the end.
@@traceyedson9652 No fallacy entailed. Shall I show you how to get from one step to the other to the next? The historical evidence is there for each step: 1 Peter to Rome 2 Peter's successors in Rome 3 Successors in Rome to Papacy Even the East accepted the papacy early on at ecumenical councils (Popes Hormisdas, Leo, Agatho)
You are hard-reading the papacy into history, many scholars see Clement as just as one of the elders, I have also read Clement's letter to the Corinthians and the plurality of authorship in the expressions is clear. Secondly, only Catholics believe that Peter was a bishop in Rome but proper scholarship only attest both Paul and Peter being executed there. So the papacy is based on one's ability to make sturbon arguments! Even Leo 1, as good as he was, the hunger for power to suppress the eastern Bishops is clearly evident. Even Victor, some 200 years had tried to bully others over the Easter date, but was challenged by Irreneus. So this papacy, is not Good ordained, because Christ teaches that no one should exhort himself over others. Surprisingly, even Gregory pope, between 590 and 610, intially condemned a bishop in Constantinople, and said only Lucifer tries to enthroned himself over others and it is rather surprising that he however strengthened the papacy even more! So much for now!
I paused this and then came back to it several days later. I can’t agree with the Cordial Catholic’s view of the foundational dogmas of the Faith only existing in seeds. The Trinity & the Two Natures are expressed in OT/Semitic terms and strong implications in actions. The Syriac then Greek then Latin categories of course didn’t exist. But the content was there. This is a big difference in Catholic & Orthodox dogmatics, and why Orthodox don’t accept the development of dogma idea as liberally as the Catholics. The Faith is further embellished, explored & explicated through time & experience but the deposit is not added to. Even the teaching on icons is completely rooted in the dogma of the Incarnation. It’s a necessary application but not an additional dogma. We may not expect a fully-functional papacy in the first centuries, but if it’s true we do expect that it would be functioning consistently & not merely occasionally with the authority Roman Catholics insist upon - especially that dogma that communion with the Roman pontiff alone defines catholicity. We do not.
I dont get it tbh. This many years to make a decision while understanding the arguments. Ive converted in a country where it's not really safe to do so. I cant help feel he's too over cautious
I am thinking of converting but it seems really inconvenient. I feel like catholocism is the only christian denomination that doesnt ask you to shut off your brain. The rituals are also necessary to spirituality and the sermons in other denominations resemble going to a self help seminar where the preacher just tries to squeeze in supporting material from the bible to justify whatever they were planning to preach anyway. Right now I am with a woman and am u nmarried to her and we have a son together. I also have warrants for my arrest that i need to take care of but haven't yet because ideally i do it in the summer. I also was abused in foster care as a child and the abuser was catholic and i did attend some catholic services at that time. So i wonder if stepping into a catholic church would also feel like a type of concession to somebody i have grown to hate.
God Bless you! Keep searching for the Truth. You were created by One who wants you to know love. Just ask for His love to be shown to you. Come to prayer a few minutes a day, read the Gospels slowly looking at Jesus and who He is and what he says
I have to be honest Catholicism and evangelicalism are different religions, even though we share a similar foundation. There's no way, I as one who totally depends on Christ only for my salvation can ever have any place for the Catholic "fuller truths"
@@mmbtalk " I as one who totally depends on Christ only for my salvation" implies Catholics don't depend on Christ only for our salvation. Which isn't true.
@@mmbtalk Catholics totally depend on Christ for our salvation. Christ does have heavy demands he makes on us such as what was mentioned on the sermon on the mount but he pays extremely well so it is worth it.
While I was Protestant I got into a debate about Sola scriptura with a family friend of my then girlfriend now wife. He was an 80 something year old Colombian priest who barely spoke English. He wiped the floor with me. A few years later I became Catholic and can look back to that as the first of my Protestant planks to be ripped up. 😅
Hispanic grandpa legend 🙌
That’s an amazing story! God bless that priest!
@@TheCordialCatholic His logic was sound (he did study in Rome as well as a Lutheran seminary and spoke like 6 languages), but the most memorable part was also just him saying “Es a stupid” and slapping his head with his hand. I still can hear it to this day. 😂
But seriously though. Monseñor was a brilliant man and I thank God everyday for putting him in my life. He passed away July 14,2021 before I had the chance to tell him I became Catholic. I ask him to pray for me all the time haha.
@@JoshN91wow, I would seek his intercession too!
Thank you for your story and welcome home.
God bless you welcome home 🙏
I’m in RCIA right now because of work like this, thank you guys.
Awesome! Thanks for watching! So glad it helps.
Wasn’t that devastating? When Sola Scriptura fell apart before my eyes - I was studying Orthodoxy at the time - I was crushed. It was the biggest existential theological crisis I’ve ever gone through. That was almost three years before I was confirmed at the most recent Easter Vigil. Deo gratias!
Wow! 👏
What would you say made Sola Scriptura "fall apart" for you?
The fact that Austin is still reviewing Trent Horn content is really cool. He has graduated and got married and is outside the college bubble now having more time to process all this. Its interesting to see how he has grown. If he ever does cross the Tiber I know this host played a big role in that.
It’s been my honour to be a part of his journey.
Austin is such a great guy whether he ever becomes Catholic/Orthodox or not. Obviously, I'm praying for him.
Both of you played a big part in my conversion to Catholicism in 2019/20. As a Canadian, I greatly appreciate the politeness and humor you both bring to the world of YT. You’re in my prayers - thank you for spreading God’s love. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🥰🥰
Aww, wow! Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. So happy to hear about your journey!
Austin is so refreshing pleasant and honest...may God reward him abundantly
I think so, too! Thanks for watching!
These two have chemistry, and bring so much joy to the big Christian questions. Great show, and I’m already looking forward to the next installment.
Thanks so much!
I like how Austin checks in every year for the same conversation.
Gotta keep him accountable!
You 2 need to make more content together GOD Bless you both. Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
Thanks, Robert!
Will be praying for a real experiential eye opening discovery in the Catholic church for Austin, I know that it can happen, it happened to me.
Thanks!
Austin has heard all the arguments so I think we should leave him alone to put the pieces together and stop proselytising. It is better to let him choose for himself what he wants to do.
I’m Orthodox, and my non-account, irrelevant opinion is that it’s about all of us growing toward the Center, Christ, Where we’ll find that heavenly unity in the Kingdom. Dogma, doctrine & practice are important. And some folks will “convert” to this or that. But the real unity we long for - and that the world desperately needs us to have - is beyond words & arguments & histories. It’s in the love of the One Who first loved us. In His Spirit & by Him alone we will come to God-pleasing “oneness of mind” in “the bond of peace.”
@@traceyedson9652Absolutely agree that the whole entire purpose of the Church, the reason for all its dogma, Sacraments, Liturgy and Eucharist is for each of us to be One with Jesus - but not just for our personal unity - but that we can humbly, sacrificially enter into His Mission - the salvation of the world - in whatever small or big way he has blessed us with.
And I believe that is why we need a Pope and the rest of the Church hierarchy- not so that you or I can experience Jesus (although what a blessing) but that he can be with us to the end of the age and that His Body would not be fractured.
@@PatrickSteil nice thoughts. Did the apostolic fathers or the general councils dogmatize that? Sounds like an argument/sentiment to back-fill a sectarian position, which is what Orthodoxy has always maintained.
@@traceyedson9652 I have not studied Orthodoxy deeply, but since Orthodoxy was a split around the year 1054 - so 1000 years after Jesus at a time when the Church had been functioning as one Church that was held together by the hierarchy of the Church including the Pope, Bishops and Priests - I would say yes it was dogmatized by Sacred Tradition.
Are you ok with the Body of Christ being fractured? Do you not see that this is why the world has lost its mind? There is no truth in the world... and there is no truth in a christian world that is fractured.
Whoo hoo another Keith video and Austin is awesome
Hope you enjoy it!
All Apostles are buried in Catholic temples. There never was a tomb with the body of Mary.
I always love you and Austin's conversations.
Thanks for watching!
Like both of these gentlemen.
Thanks for watching!
Excellent conversation all round. Austin will convert by the look of it.
The abject beauty of a conversion experience while cooling soup in the snow is so sublime. Where John Wesley found his heart strangely warmed, you found your soup strangely chilled.
My conversion-retroversion-to Catholicism was in the car, with my father driving me home from my first job. I don't remember what he said, but it genuinely must have been the Spirit talking, inviting me back.
"they live for controversy." Y'all got me rolling.
Ah, thank you!
Cool! Love from a Catholic 😊❤
Hey!
@@TheCordialCatholic Hi!^_^👋
I would like to see Austin interview Dr John Bergsma on the priesthood (and the papacy) as given to us in Scripture. He explains these things as a first century Jew must have seen them.
Keith interviewed Dr Bergsma several years back - his insights are rarely if ever discussed on Protestant blogs. And I’ve yet to hear a Protestant - really address these insights let alone be able to refute Dr Bergsma- indeed his knowledge base is so exhaustive that I think even knowledgeable Catholics are surprised.
I was thinking that Keith Little is the Catholic version of Austin Suggs.
That is a huge compliment. 😁
What an amazing content!!
Thanks for watching!
Loved Austin's comments about pursuing Christ and the spiritual life as something your choice must foster. So true. And how it all must cohere together (part of the cumulative effect); Doctrine, Liturgy, Prayer life, spiritual life, historical grounding - anything else?
I’d like to see Austin defend Orthdoxy on this show.
Austin has had lots of great guests from the Orthodox community on his show! I don't think he's interested in "defending" either Orthodoxy or Catholicism but I'm sure he'd be happy to share some of his favourite arguments for Orthodoxy, too.
Austin is a lovely guy. Great chat, i stumbled on your channel (Keith) via Keith Nesters and the three Keiths chat :-)
Welcome!
Love both of your content ❤ I have seriously binge watched both of your channels for a little over a year. When I first started watching, was Protestant, just confirmed in the Catholic Church at this year‘s Easter vigil. So good to be HOME ❤There have certainly been many voices that influenced the journey, but if I’m honest… Austin, yours were some of the first videos I started with. Can’t tell you both how much I appreciate your gracious approach. forever grateful. I Shared the journey on quest for Faith with Bryan a couple weeks ago. 😇 ruclips.net/video/t6FnVuWN_vg/видео.html
Wow! We are honoured. So happy to hear about your journey and I can’t wait to watch this! 🥰
❤️ Thank you, and seriously love how genuine and charitable both of you are 😇
I would love for you two to have a public exchange about topics like personal prayer or how to deepen your personal relationship to Christ.
Great conversation! Loved the awkward ending 😂.
Us too!
🙏🙏🙏
@CordialCatholic are you able to connect @Austin with @Gary Michuta would be a blessing to see them interact.@Austin had said in one of his videos he would like to know more about the Canon.
That’s a great suggestion. I’m sure they’d hit it off, too!
Gary and I recorded a video last week and it will be out soon!
Excellent news!
I follow Gospel Simplicity and keep up with Catholic goings-on as an EO. Love all the inter-play! But at 20:44 the rub comes: the Papacy. And I realized that the Gospel according to the RC always ends in the pope. When I talk to folks inquiring into the Orthodox faith it’s not our patriarch or bishop or synod that they’re inquiring into. It’s the faith itself. There are certainly Orthodox who present the faith as “not RC,” but that’s not the center of it, merely an unhappy result of history & schism. I venture to say that no one came over to the church catholic from heterodoxy or schism in the first millennium by being converted to the papacy, or a patriarchate. They embraced the catholic faith in Christ and joined to the local catholic bishop. (I say catholic as the Creed says it, not as “Roman.”) When did the gospel according to the RC include the bishop of Rome and the command (I quote a Catholic podcast from just this last week) to submit to the Roman pontiff”?
I always hear the orthodox argument about being the only one true to the apostles's teaching. I think that pointing to the pope is the same thing which means showing a sort of guarantee to the sole true faith.
(What made me convert is mainly the width and richness of spirituality I found and attributed it to the unbroken tradition and the universality of thecatholic church. Of course I looked into theology, too. And yes, I know that Orthodox claim to be the only ones keeping the original apostolic faith.)
23:04 Exactly! I took around 5 years unto this point...
The AnteNicene historical evidence for the papacy vs sola Scriptures are NOT on equal playing field. Y'all's conversation did NOT give Clement of Rome and Irenaeus enough credit. Both the context and text of their writings give STRONG EARLY evidence for the papacy, IMHO. Toward the end of his letter, Clement, a successor of Peter, pulls out his authority and says he speaks with the voice of Christ, and Corinth obeys (elevating his letter to Scripture even). Irenaeus, an Easterner, affirms every church must agree with Rome because of its greater authority. Even Ignatius of Antioch gives strong hints of Rome's president and teaching status. So 2 or 3 of the main 4 weigh toward papacy. None of them provide evidence of sola Scriptura, esp not Ignatius or Irenaeus. After debating Ortlund, Trent Horn even did a side by side scorecard of Church/magisterium vs sola Scriptura in the early Church fathers, showing how deficient sola Scriptura is historically to even the Church as an authority.
You’re not wrong, in my opinion. 😎
It’s so easy to slip into the Peter = Rome = Papacy fallacy. Only in Christ will this relevant but tired debate be put to rest. I suspect there will be repentance aplenty from all parties in the end.
@@traceyedson9652 No fallacy entailed. Shall I show you how to get from one step to the other to the next? The historical evidence is there for each step:
1 Peter to Rome
2 Peter's successors in Rome
3 Successors in Rome to Papacy
Even the East accepted the papacy early on at ecumenical councils (Popes Hormisdas, Leo, Agatho)
I've read the Early Church Fathers, too. Great argument, rather, great Truth! God Bless!
You are hard-reading the papacy into history, many scholars see Clement as just as one of the elders, I have also read Clement's letter to the Corinthians and the plurality of authorship in the expressions is clear. Secondly, only Catholics believe that Peter was a bishop in Rome but proper scholarship only attest both Paul and Peter being executed there. So the papacy is based on one's ability to make sturbon arguments! Even Leo 1, as good as he was, the hunger for power to suppress the eastern Bishops is clearly evident. Even Victor, some 200 years had tried to bully others over the Easter date, but was challenged by Irreneus. So this papacy, is not Good ordained, because Christ teaches that no one should exhort himself over others. Surprisingly, even Gregory pope, between 590 and 610, intially condemned a bishop in Constantinople, and said only Lucifer tries to enthroned himself over others and it is rather surprising that he however strengthened the papacy even more! So much for now!
I paused this and then came back to it several days later. I can’t agree with the Cordial Catholic’s view of the foundational dogmas of the Faith only existing in seeds. The Trinity & the Two Natures are expressed in OT/Semitic terms and strong implications in actions. The Syriac then Greek then Latin categories of course didn’t exist. But the content was there. This is a big difference in Catholic & Orthodox dogmatics, and why Orthodox don’t accept the development of dogma idea as liberally as the Catholics. The Faith is further embellished, explored & explicated through time & experience but the deposit is not added to. Even the teaching on icons is completely rooted in the dogma of the Incarnation. It’s a necessary application but not an additional dogma. We may not expect a fully-functional papacy in the first centuries, but if it’s true we do expect that it would be functioning consistently & not merely occasionally with the authority Roman Catholics insist upon - especially that dogma that communion with the Roman pontiff alone defines catholicity. We do not.
When he mentions a heretical Pope surely he means Honorius rather than Hormisdas?
Did I say Hormisdas? If so, my apologies. Yes, Honorius would be the pope under consideration
I dont get it tbh. This many years to make a decision while understanding the arguments. Ive converted in a country where it's not really safe to do so. I cant help feel he's too over cautious
Everyone is different. The head can lead, but the heart has to ultimately move also.
Starting this video wondering if they can out-nice each other. 😉
Let us know what you think! 😂
I am thinking of converting but it seems really inconvenient. I feel like catholocism is the only christian denomination that doesnt ask you to shut off your brain. The rituals are also necessary to spirituality and the sermons in other denominations resemble going to a self help seminar where the preacher just tries to squeeze in supporting material from the bible to justify whatever they were planning to preach anyway.
Right now I am with a woman and am u nmarried to her and we have a son together. I also have warrants for my arrest that i need to take care of but haven't yet because ideally i do it in the summer. I also was abused in foster care as a child and the abuser was catholic and i did attend some catholic services at that time. So i wonder if stepping into a catholic church would also feel like a type of concession to somebody i have grown to hate.
God Bless you! Keep searching for the Truth. You were created by One who wants you to know love. Just ask for His love to be shown to you. Come to prayer a few minutes a day, read the Gospels slowly looking at Jesus and who He is and what he says
I have to be honest Catholicism and evangelicalism are different religions, even though we share a similar foundation. There's no way, I as one who totally depends on Christ only for my salvation can ever have any place for the Catholic "fuller truths"
I used to think the same thing. Everything changed when I attended my first Mass (a Midnight Mass).
@@Davcramer I have been to many masses, even before I became a Christian and I am now on solid ground not to be swayed by every wave of new doctrines.
@@mmbtalk " I as one who totally depends on Christ only for my salvation" implies Catholics don't depend on Christ only for our salvation. Which isn't true.
@@MrPeach1 you do in a different way, you have a list of other things that you must do to achieve acceptance before God.
@@mmbtalk Catholics totally depend on Christ for our salvation. Christ does have heavy demands he makes on us such as what was mentioned on the sermon on the mount but he pays extremely well so it is worth it.
Are y’all related? LOL
Maybe we should check! 🫣
Are you, too, doing the opposite? A catholic's best argument for protestantism?
That's a great idea!
Only made it to 30 minute mark....way way too much rambling
Thanks for watching!