Yet again another most professional attempt at analysing, in what has become a serious problem for the Tortoise motors. I applaud this type of effort and is quite typical of the Mackinley Team in identifying decent solutions. Of note though is that the manufacturer, typical these days, refuses to do the right thing, take a lead and correct this. I am afraid I won't be using Tortoise motors and I daresay many others will be the same..
That would be a bad decision as, despite their problems, Tortoises are still the best point motors available. A better approach would be to first open up each new Tortoise and fix the contacts in place with a 1mm screw. Don't worry about the warranty as I have never ever seen a Tortoise fail within the warranty period. I have a layout with ~200 Tortoises, some of which were installed almost 30 years ago and yes, some of the contacts are failing. I repair them with the 1mm screw and expect that they will then last nearly forever.
Yikes! I’ve got 118 on my layout and I always thought they were bomb proof. No problems so far but I’ll know what to look for after your detailed investigation and explanation. Thanks David. Hugh
Here’s hoping the cobalts have upgraded. I had issues with them over time where they do not stall correctly. What I mean by this is the point blades seat correctly but the motor keeps operating, clicking. Before you say they need to be readjusted I have tried this too. I then uninstalled the problem motor and it continued to show the same issues.
Great analysis and innovative fix, all very well presented as usual! I'm surprised that such a popular point motor should have these issues without being noticed sooner! Keep up the good work! Ian
Excellent video David, with some really useful information, thank you for telling us about it. As for the Tortoise motors, I think that is just incredibly. I also agree, Costal DCC, are highly recommended, plus DCC Automations, who also have the complete range of the MTB point motors.
Oh my god, I have 50 Tortoise point motors on my layout, NONE of them are accessible without removing the 31 track boards which were desinged in case of need of removal. My loft layout is also prone to a lot more extreme temperatures than your indoor layout. I could cry. I don't THINK I have had problems as yet, I will now test them all. Thank you for the video.
great helpful video as always. it amazes me that you are able to face such a big problem at such a big scale and still deal with it. fare a play to you
Those jigs are a great solution for speeding up the fixes. I am sharing your video with my clubs maintenance group. Our layout has several tortoises in locations that aren't easily accessible and the next time a more flexible member is present, we shall check for this flaw
I have about 100 Tortoises on my layout and I have experienced this same problem and fixed it in a similar way. I also have found that at one end of the throw there is enough torque on the arm to lift the contact wiper off the contacts. This occurs if there is insufficient tension on the wiper fingers. This manifests itself as the switch acts as expected until the end of throw is reached.
I thought that was what our problem was on the old layout. I imagined that we had scoured the PCB by having a skew force on the wipers. It was the case on a few (say 10) and that is down to us poorly fitting them in the first place. Good luck with your repairs.
A great vid, thanks for sharing. Interesting that the manufacturer hasn’t addressed in inherent fault. The experiences you have had with these Tortoise motors, we too have had on our large exhibition layout. Old Elms Road has been on the exhibition road for about 20 years now & has had maybe half of the installed ones failing. Our fix was fitting micro switches in place of the internal ones. We will be embarking on checking & repairing all our stock. Thanks once again & keep up the good work.
That ties up with my thinking. I could have gone with the external switches, but we found it hard to get the left and right handed micro switches with contact levers the same length. In the end we gone for the 'industrial' nut and bolt solution. We still have to upgrade the 240 switches on the extension. What a mission. Thanks for taking time to comment. David
I was going to bring-up the fingernail varnish trick but you already realized it. I've been doing that for 45 years ever since John Hillyer taught me it during my apprenticeship at Hillyer's TV in Stamford
An interesting quandry especially in light of the number of points. Typical that you find out about an alternative after you have carried out the upgrade. I am glad you have let Charle know since he has tortoise motors on his layout.
Well! You've got me worried! Admittedly I've only got about 10 installed, and I'm only switching frogs, but a worry none the less. Thanks for that interesting and comprehensive analysis!
Very informative. I plan to start building my layout next year. I just assumed I would be using Tortoise motors. Seems that I may have to re-evaluate given the information you have provided. Thanks! You may have saved me a lot of future pain.
By all means stick with them. If you only want to switch the frog polarity, join the switch outputs in parallel. That cuts down the problem rate by 75%. As I have stated above, the motors have never never failed. Its just because I was using both switches for different purposes...
Ouch, don't know about you guys at McKinley, but even my eye's started too water when you started to talk numbers and problem. Feel for Pete M1.2 bolts and even more pain with the M1.2 nuts :( On the bright side twenty year's of service one could say that's excellent, and with a solution to get god knows how many more. The thing that would concern me is the one's failing sooner. I like the look of them MTB point motors. All the best with the layout, would love too see it in person.
Well done on such a simple fix to the problem. Thread lock is normally applied to the bolt threads thus locking the nut to the threads. I don’t think a dab of nail varnish, will penetrate the threads enough. And you maybe experiencing the same wiper movement, in a few years down the line
@@dattouk Not wishing to put a downer on the mission, as I’m unsure of the torque that the slides under. but they used to put shellac coating on nuts&bolts in radios. After a few years that cracked from vibrations. Hope your fix will work and the varnish is thicker and will hold upto the job better that the plastic pins did
WOW 😮 David what a nightmare 🫣 I don’t use tortoise 🐢 motors on my layout as it’s only a small one and I use H&M clunky point motors and they’ve been fine for me for many years. Glad seeing you back on RUclips with an update on McKinley 👍🏻 Cheers Stevie
Thank you for doing this video. Professional, calmly presented and the repair is pretty straight forward. Considering the price of the tortoise point motors, I must say this is disappointing considering the price of the motors. I hope there is a revision of the design to help combat this issue in the future. Heat staking, which is the term used for the way they mount these, really is not a secure way of mounting contacts that experience a lot of movement. The screws are really a good idea.
The failures appear to be random in the sense that they are not linked to usage or specifically time. We have had 5 fail on the new extension (240 points) which were relatively new and unused. The manufacturer has replied to me and is looking into this problem. I presume he will try and upgrade the mechanism. I am not sure that moving to a different supplier would fix anything. I hear similar yet different failure stories about them too. Regards, David
Im a professional layout builder and we dont use them or Cobalts. We use servos all the time and the MegaPoints system to control them. When they fail, which is not very often they are cheap to replace. The MegaPoints system can control relays too.
Hello David, you have fallen into the same trap I have. Your lovely snippet - 'When they fail' - Most point motors are not installed in accessible locations as we never presume they will fail. Let me know what happens over the next 20 years.
I am just starting building my layout. Partly due to the exorbitant price of Tortoises, I opted to go with traditional solenoid-style motors. The other reason is they have a huge profile requiring a lot of clearance. It is a shame that Circuitron is aware of the issue and chooses to do nothing to fix it. And for that, it will be a very long time before I support that kind of corporate behaviour.
Dear David, very interesting episode, definitely appreciate the way you’ve shown the arm failure. It will be interesting to see what Circuitron’s reply is going to be. On the video of the open heart surgery, as the arm swings, there’s enough room for the contacts to be folded around the arm, maybe even all the way into the U shape of the lever. That will also allow for mechanical joinery on the ‘axis’ of the lever, which will make the entire connection more stronger and most of all more durable. Or, when Circuitron would change this design to fold around contact points, I could even imagine a slotted mount, with which the spring action of the copper will sit sturdy all by itself. Curious to see what your experiences with the Cobalts will bring. On the ‘point’ you made on the Tortoises being freely moving; James from Bexhill West, made some excellent videos on the factual movement and friction servos in general produce. Although this movement may be appropriate to keep pressure on the point blades, it also produces the friction which could be the root cause of the contact’s mount being so vulnerable to failure. To solve this problem James designed his very own point motor system, which moves completely in line with the point rod. His system consists of a three or two point attachment on the throw bar. Also, his point motor system is equipped with at least two micro switches attached to the movement mechanism. Another great example of the in line movement putting less pressure on the throw bar is from Steve Muskokee, who some years ago used Circuitron’s remote operating appendage to throw one of the turnouts on his layout, where he wasn’t able to place a Tortoise directly under the baseboard at the location of the turnout. Bexhill West and Steve Muskokee can be found here on RUclips. Cheerio
Folks, I use both Tortoises and Cobalt iP Digitals on my layout, and in spite of having to repair a few I am still pleased with the performance and longevity. I have been using Tortoises for over 20 years and I think that those I have had to repair were preowned ones I bought off eBay or train shows so no idea how much use they have seen. One thing to keep in mind is that Tortoises are guaranteed for 9 years from date of purchase so keep your receipts just in case. Really though, how many other model railroad products are guaranteed for 9 years? Recently I had to develop a 3D model of the main axle gear on my Hornby West Country Class Bulleid Pacifics because it had cracked. Since Hornby no longer makes replacements for that release I had to have some custom printed.
The only point to add is that the warranty is not really the worth much when a point fails in its job. You have to climb under the layout , de-solder the connections, take out four screws and send it off to America. This problem is a latent defect which the manufacturer has known about for years...
Thanks for sharing. What about the digital snail motors . These are same as yours but new digital motor. Will in time would these fail as well. I about to install 14 off these motors. It be nice to see McKinley running the full layout. Cheers have a good day 😊
that just seems like the manufacturer don't care about customers finding faults, I would have thought they would been straight onto it & made an upgraded modifed fix for their system, but thanks for video on what to lookout for & how to fix it.
Enough people are buying them that they don't think a problem 5+ years down the road is worth the expense of altering how they make them. Only if enough customers complain will they likely do anything. It is possible unser UK consumer laws there could be a case to answer with regards fit for purpose and or manufacturers defects, but that would require a legal expert to look at in more detail.
Consumer law- Possibly yes - but I really really don't want to go there. We just want to finish the build and enjoy operating. I get embroiled in enough contract law problems in the day job. Thanks for the thoughts though.
Very interesting video and very well presented. Also lots of gems in the comments. The design really doesnt seem to be very robust. If I was the manufacturer I would want to be eliminating this problem one way or another maybe its design, maybe process control probably a bit of both. Ultimately they are playing with their reputation. You have found a belt and braces fix, might be worth checking the varnish that you use in case it has adverse effect on the nearby plastic. Thanks for explaining so clearly the problem and your solution.
Thanks for this information. I have been having trouble with my home designed signalling system and have been wondering if the tortoise contacts are the cause of incorrect signal aspects. It all worked when I first tested it, but problems have arisen in the last 12 months. The problems are intermittent and related to incorrect point status settings. Looks like I have to dismantle some tortoises and check them out.
The mp5 would probably solve some of the problems James mentioned in the previous video about clearance below the track, Charlie has used them in areas where his helix prevents tortoises being used. I wonder if Charlie will have a video on this subject as he's likely to get the message out to a wider audience than mckinley as they have I think slightly different appeal to each other.
I had the same problem and actually used the same solution to fix them with the bolts on 3 out of 12 that had broken and was going to do the same to the remainder. But since bolting them on I found they are wearing down the board to the point that they no longer function at all. By bolting them they don’t have the loose play in them and really compromise the board. I’m just glad I didn’t have that many and was able to swap them out.
we have a load of tortoises, the jig would be really useful to have one of those jigs, I could print myself, would you share the stl file for that purpose?
I re-wought this a few times to try get right, But the first thing I thought, plastic lug/rivit holding what a failure, but on second tought if a car / motorcyle plastic lug had failed after 5-7 years we would just replace with out question! I assume from the vlog if it is a bit of modeled plastic melted over the copper pickup, which would variable due to time / heat to form the seal. Also 20 years service that's nearly a third of life! (I am 62) from what is a over compilated simple switch design from the late 2000's prob even older! I would say well done to the Tortoise motors for having lasted so long. McKinley Railway has shown there is a issiue with a problem of design, and found a time consuming rectification. After all we as modelers tend to buy into a manufactor's products, I have gong back to good old DC thinking that DCC is getting too or over compucated and expensive for my needs for is a said hobby! I sorry if I have upset people with my words but are us as modelers spending too much money on the likes of eg Bachmann/Hornby and not getting to most out of our layouts? Yes McKinley is a large layout and more compucated but in real terms is half what we are sold needed?
Hello Mr Vinny, I accept that 20 years is a good time, but if I knew when I bought the first batch that 60% would need to have the switch mechanisms replaced in time (and we are talking about problems starting at 5 years here), I would have taken a great deal more care in installing them in accessible places. We all thought they were the bee's knees. I feel for your about your frustrations with DCC but my problem is about mechanical switches failing.
Great information video. It's bizarre as I've been working on my much simpler Fleischmann points today, replacing two points with unreliable operation and repairing other failed Fleischmann magnetic coil point motors..
OK, sometimes the fun in this hobby is watching the process of someone else fixing a problem. The Tortoise was a big step up from previous switch motors, which were too easy to burn out. Thanks.
Great video David and thanks for sharing the Tortoise fix. I’ve got 24 new Tortoises ready to go and now feel compelled to do the mod before I fit them! Please can you tell me what length M1.2 bolts you used?
I would be interested to know what Charlie Bishop plans to do with his layout. Will he switch to Cobalt for the last sections of track to be completed? I've had a different problem with Cobalt's but they told me about the issue with the digital IP's and replaced them for me for free. I can't complain about the service from DCC Concepts, 1st class!
Very interesting video, and an excellent bit of problem solving (something railway modellers need to be good at!) I wonder if the McKinley team dismantled any of the Cobalt and MP point motors to confirm whether or not their mechanics were less likely to affected by such issues? Just a shame Circuitron/Tortoise won't acknowledge the problem: there are two obvious things they could address - how they fix the contacts to the plastic arm, and the composition of the plastic arm. Some (many?) plastics denature over time, so it could be that a reformulated plastic could make them last 22 years... I remember we had a problem with some Peco concrete sleeper Streamline track (laid late 60s/early 70s I think) where the plastic denatured (softened) so much over 20/25 years that the gauge of the track spread, and the track had to be replaced. Wooden sleepered track of the same vintage laid at the same next to the concrete sleepered track didn't have any issue, so it can only have been down to the formulation of the plastic Peco were using for concrete sleepers at the time. While it's over 20 years since the track was replaced, unfortunately the layout is no more, so I can't really say if it improved!
Plastic formulation can matter a lot! Tower plastic electrical conduit, especially flexible, used to become brittle over a couple of years such that it shattered explosively into sharp shards that cut if they hit you (missed our eyes). Other companies had a different formula that didn't shatter.
Probably not relevant for you now, but when Lawrence was still running CML, I spoke to him about the power draw of the original Cobalt motors. His elegant solution (on the DAC20) was simply to add a pair of 1K resistors to supply additional current when needed (but not enough to dislodge the Cobalt when not needed). I'm sure a similar trick would work on the DS54 should you want to add those dozen Cobalts in the future.
Thanks for the update. Coming from a Telecommunications background, back in the days of Strowger telephone exchange equipment, the mechanical wiper blade equipped switching gear used then needed frequent routine maintenance and cleaning. There were dozens of engineers per telephone exchange performing this ongoing, never ending schedule. The wiper blades on the switch gear also required setting at a particular pressure against the contact bed. I imagine that you are cleaning your phosphor bronze wipers before re-placing them back into their Tortoise bodies as a matter of common sense, but have you being checking the wiper's spring pressure against the contact bed/board? This could possibly lead to problems if too light or too heavy! I noticed from your video that there's four spring wipers per unit, which should ideally all need individually checking! All electro mechanical apparatus will need maintaining so don't think you'll solve all the reliability problems for ever. Also, the electronics boards which have served you so well so far will probably have components that will fail over time, especially electrolytic capacitors. Luckily these do tend to last for decades rather than years usually, but there are always dodgy batches of all electronic components and manufacturing issues as they are produced across the world with varying standards! Your magnificent marathon of a layout project, splendid as it is, I fear may perhaps prove to be too complex, too potentially worrisome, glitchy and maintenance time heavy when balanced against the expected enjoyment of actual use, such is the reality of these technologies. I really hope not and that you get to use it as intended. All I know is that my own layout takes up 60% of my time in maintenance and issues and only 40% using and enjoying! Regards Julian.
One can clearly sense your frustration over all this, David. A pity that the manufacturer doesn't seem particularly concerned. Me? I'll stick to my digital control of points; ie using my finger...
Great video and information. My layout is relatively new and when I started after watching yourself and Charlie I was going to use Tortoise but ultimately went for MTB because of space under the boards I have not had any issues (yet).
Presumably, the very act of heating the plastic pins on assembly of the wiper to the arm, compromises the plastic in the long term (leaving aside the possibility that it doesn’t result in a very good joint in the first place). Just a thought about the ‘fix’ itself - to get around the lack of thread depth in the rear face of that arm and eliminate the need to use a nut, you could 3D-print a plastic strip to fit in that rear cavity (with suitably spaced holes of tapping size already moulded into it), allowing the use of self-tapping screws after all.
Probably we could but... The reality is once we found what we thought was a dependable solution and worked out how to make a jig to drill the holes, we just want to get on with fixing them. There are so many challenges that come up with building this layout that once we find 'a fix' for a problem we move on to the next one. Thanks for the comments. Regards, David
Would it be easier to cast a resin plug in the area under the contacts and the you could just use a screw into the resin plug without having to use the nuts? Another option might be to 3D print the motor arms with a solid section under the attachment point. You may even be able if you wanted to continue to use the nuts, print a nut area above each hole to facilitate holding the nut while installing and tightening the bolt. Just thoughts to ease the rebuild of the arms. Good luck.
I have no idea about casting - It might be easier - we worked out how to get a solution and then we decided to stick with it. I hope it works. Once we got the jig made we became very dexterous is screwing the M1.2 nuts onto the bolts. The packs from Amazon came with a nut holder which was very convenient. Pete and Ivana are the fastest - I am the slowest.
Very well done analysis and discussion of solutions. Rather damning news for Tortoise. Now I have a dilemma, use the ones I have or consider something else. One point you do not make, the possibility of the wipers floating around in the mechanism is a threat even if you do not use the built in switches.
David, Using pre-packaged products for point motors is obviously very appealing but does carry risks which sadly do seem in this case to have materialised. Obviously McKinley is very invested in this approach and really starting again is not a viable way forward so it seems that your postscript #3 approach is a good way out of the problem - but a lot of work. Just as food for thought... in case there needs to be a postscript #4 in future. On my test layout I am attempting to take a different approach altogether. I'm using RKEducation point servo motors (under £5 each) directly PWM controlled by an ESP32 Mini board (about £8) each of which can control at least 2 of those motors. The ESP32 and the point motors are all powered from a single USB port (a hub). A single microswitch is activated by each point motor and simply feeds into separate pins on the ESP32, allowing it to confirm the turnout state. The ESP 32 controls a dual opto-isolated relay (£2.50) which switches each of the frogs as needed. The ESP32 can - as you will know - do Wi-Fi connectivity and I am using the ESP_NOW point to point (MAC to MAC) software to allow the ESP32 to send and receive commands and provide status feedback to my central control node which also interfaces to my YAMORC DCC controller (so no control points control wiring, no Wi-Fi hub needed and no driver boards required). For maximum ease of access I am mounting all this stuff on the front edge of my test baseboard and using slotted-in wire rods to transmit the movement to the points. My hope is that this will save me from the problem of having to work underneath the baseboard on point motors in future, which I have seen from so many videos (yours, Charlie's, Rob at Little Wicket and others) can be a horrible job. It's only a prototype arrangement but I have it working - changing points once per 10 seconds for the last 8 days - and no problems as yet. So, about £10 per point + 10 port USB hub (about £20) - and of course software to write and enclosures etc. It's a bit more time consuming putting this together than buying something ready made, and you do need a little expertise on ESP32 (Arduino IDE) programming - but if it scales up it's a lot cheaper and IMO more maintainable. Overall I have more time than money so I may well end up embracing this approach.
Hello Alan, Thank you for your extensive reply. As I have explained elsewhere above, my problem is about the mechanical switches. The motors and the stationary decoders have worked together for years and I have never had a point motor failure. We managed to avoid the problems of stalled locos on dead frogs because of all the pickups. Having hit this problem at a very late stage after fitting 240 tortoise motors to the new extension, the thought of installing something new and having to rewire all the points with a different solution filled me with dread. Once we had a practical mechanical solution (which the manufacturer suggested) we got on with it. Problem solved - don't look back - fix the next problem mindset. Anyway, thank your for your time and input and good luck with your prototype... regards David
From experience of nuts and bolts generally I would have used washers and spring washers to make them more secure and prevent the possibility of them loosening off, not because they will, but because they could and it saves the faff of doing it all again. Also, I reckon the cause of failure is not necessarily the plastic failing through age per se, although that could be a factor, but that it's not being helped by the spring effect of the contact strip mounting point straining the hot melted piece of securing plastic causing a minute amount of abrasive effect.
Similarly, we used a particular type of supposedly heavy-duty picture hook. Then pictures started falling to the floor. The plastic hook was snapping at the point where the picture cord (not wire) hung on the curve of the hook. No movement, just gravity, like a weighted wire through ice. Pictures well within stated weight tolerance of hooks. No obvious evidence of impending catastrophic (for picture frame and glass failure. A friend works in Non-Destructive Testing to detect where such failure matters - big time!
Good question, but no because we already had 44 control boards to drive the 192 points. That would be more expense. I fundamentally don't want to drive my points through DCC for resiliance. I restrict DCC for driving Locos and keep everything else on LocoNet or IP.. David
A rather time consuming and challenging problem to resolve. Even with your fix you have sadly no guarantees that it will be effective longer term as could be causing weaknesses in the plastic and some plastics will go brittle over time, which could be a factor with the original failure. You may be best doing some testing on alternatives including the mp10 so you have a future replacement option available to you given you may still have ticking time bombs under your boards.
Larry Puckett (@TheDCCGuy) did a similar video a few years ago - Video 69: Cure For a Sick Tortoise. He used small screws so your solution using nuts and bolts is better.
I’m really surprised you didn’t go back to the manufacturer and ask for replacement arms with secure contacts. Simple and no expense. Or for the any new layouts use relays to do all the switching for you.
The manufacturer offered to sell me replacement arms at cost and didn't believe there was a problem As the new arms are identical to what I have and would 'probably' suffer the same fate in 5 to 10 years, it wouldn't have made any difference. Hence why we bit the bullet. For me Its important to have a running railway. If I can figure out a solution relatively quickly then we go for it.
The important metric is not the life in years, but the number of cycles of point movement a point motor has experienced. Can your computer systems tell you now many cycles a particular motor has experienced? This should help you to determine how likely a particular motor is to tail using a statistical analysis such as the classic Weibull reliability analysis.
It was interesting at the end that he pointed out that a point that hardly got used failed too. So it seems it has nothing to do with the number of cycles it has run.
No. Plastic can denature over time whether used or not. Depends on formulation. I posted about Tower electrical conduit and some big brand pictures hooks that denatured without friction or other movement related stresses. Some plastic will denature very quickly or is far too brittle from the start
It took me 5 long years for my dream layout did find the MP1 and the MP5 switch machine they did check off the list of what i wanted in a Tortoise i was quoted at the time 350 Canadian dollars for 12 Tortoises when i was in the plans of a layout too found them lot cheaper in the price i got 36 of them mp5 for 12 of the Tortoise you have different boards to choose from easy to instill too and just if i blind man can do it your can too
Wow! Thanks for sharing and shocked at manufacturers still using mechanical moving switch contact blades that you have demonstrated to be mechanically unreliable and is shortening the life-span of this premium product (Tortoise). Had assumed manufacturers would be using electronic switching such as Optocouplers or opto-isolator solid state switching relays that protect the feedback circuits coming in contact with the power rails voltages.
Very interesting video David. On the evidence presented unless they revamp the parts in the Tortoise it could lead to most people not using them. Of course, were this to be a car there would be an immediate recall. I wonder how many Tortoise motors have been sold over the twenty year period discussed? I have been contemplating Tortoise motors but now I think I will stay as I am with a mixture of the traditional Peco and Seep varieties. Thanks for enlightening us.
And my Shimano Ultegra bike cranks have a global recall of many millions of items. Back in 1976, new Falcon Eddy Merckx bike, I had my right aluminium crank snap as I put pressure on a small hill arpund Gotham, between Loughborough and Nottingham - just as a car was passing. Luck, my bike handling, or God decided my time was not yet up. Rode with one pedal to Sid Standen, Beeston, where he apologised and replaced crank and chainring
Have you considered painting PVA onto the problem area before they come loose, Although it is still a lot of work it may be an easier solution than drilling and putting in nuts and screws.
as you have concluded there is a manufacturing issue with these motors; it maybe possible to use consumer rights to get a remedy with the manufacturer. it doesn't matter how long you have had the motors or whether they are within warranty, the fact is there is a fault, would be worth getting additional feedback .
Well hopefully Tortoise will realise they need to come up with a V2 if they don’t want to loose all their market share to the Cobalt. Fair play in trying to find and engineering solution.
Kinda amusing this. Man creates major model railway. Man models the maintenance plans of a full scale railway. I wonder how often a full scale railway would have it's point mechanics changed over 20 years.
The Problem is one of how the wipers are attached at manufacture and while the bolt fix is a time intensive fix it does what should be a perm fix where you wont have the same thing happen and as you stated the rest of the thing has proved to be so reliable that it seems strange that the manufacturer is not making changes that will remove the one fault that is consistant in their product. To me this should be something anyone that uses the point motors should do when buying them to use so they remove the failure point from the start but of course there is the dredded void if removed warranty issue. As for manufacturer doing the fix themselves they will claim that is why the external board was made to take away the problem but it is a half fix as the problem will still happen and the contacts will float about inside and make random conections or jam up things causing other problems. Obviously the cost to make a perma fix to the product at manufacture is such that they think it is not worth it and likely base this on the number of people reporting this problem ie the number of people that use those internal switches.
I'm really sorry for you problems, well explained. Surely product not fit for purpose? You have spent Thousands on these, you must have a course of compensation? I'm not one to jump on a compo wagon, but that is not fair at all!😮
I really dont want to pursue a compensation route. We have had 20 years of service out of the motors on the old layout in the sense that they did switch the points. Its more about the loss of time. You are right about it not being fair, but if I allowed that to colour my world, I'd be chasing the model manufacturers and getting even more worked up than I am now.
Hi. David. I get your frustration on this. Your problems stem from the manufacturer not defining critical performance parameters. E.g. number of operations, current, voltage, whether ac or dc or both operation and the type of load - resistive, inductive, time constant for dc etc for the contacts and switch assembly. All these are critical factors that define the loads we as modellers switch on our layouts. Look at any relay in wide scale use and you will get this data and more - because those manufacturers work to standards and their customers and related standards demand it. Two retailers I have just checked show MTB’s MP 1 with technical data stating it is rated at 1 amp that is it! There are no critical defining voltage(s), whether ac, dc, or type of load and crucially for us all how many operations it will perform/ they have validated it for. So it will be another guessing game. Yes its the same for solenoid point motors too (all the ones I have seen at least), grossly inadequate basic technical data. There is far too much experimentation done by customers on behalf of the manufacturers in this hobby in my opinion. As you have performed Cicutron’s life testing for them, you have shown that the metallurgy for the fixed and moving contacts over your X millions of operations and your operating environment and different types of loads (inductive and resistive) is sound whenever the moving contact is firmly fixed to the moving armature. For any good electrical contact the two critical characteristics are contact pressure and conducting surface area and you meet that. Your bolts cure your critical design failure/ quality problem and the jig path is exactly what the production engineers I have worked with would have done to ensure consistency of re- assembly. I personally would not experiment with a new suppliers poorly defined kit after your experiences and sound solution to date, looks like you are Circutron’s Research arm now ! Hope this helps. All the best Stephen.
i built a point motor with one cheap servo, one 3d printed part a hex nut and a point rod. costs less than 2£ and i've tested it & it has switched over 7'500'000 times without failure and no sign of wear! reach out if you're interested:)
Thank you for the offer. The challenge was twofold. If we moved away from the Tortoise, it would mean re-wiring 440 points AND having to replace 48 DS54 stationary decoders because of power requirements. We tried the available switches, which didn't work with the DS54s (power load) - My concerns were driven around cost and time to repair. We know the tortoise motors work - I have never had a motor failure. It was the switches which failed over a 20 year period. So fixing the existing switch arms ended up being the default choice..
My question is why are you not using a good super glue instead of the nuts and bolts. There are some really good bonding agents made today so why not use those.
I am no glue expert, but we find superglue to be fragile when subjected to repeated bangs and bumps. We used it to lock the coupling butterflies for the UK NEM coupling pockets. We repeatedly get 'glue fractures' and end up screwing the NEM pockets down. I wanted something mechanical that wouldn't sheer or tear through the plastic. Our solution is a bit old school, but I feel confident they will see me out. David
Not to defend Circuitron, but if I could get my cell phone ($1000), laptop ($1500), air conditioning ($5000+), washer ($900), dryer ($900), refrigerator ($3000), automobile ($25,000 for a cheap one) or toaster ($100) for that matter to last 20 years before they failed or had to replace any parts I would be quite happy with that and we are talking about a $20 item you got 20 years out of. That is only $1 dollar per year. I do agree if circuitron has been aware of the problem they should fix it and I commend you on your solution and maybe we will start doing this fix out of the box on all of our layout builds going forward because like you say the motors and gears and electronic boards are still bullet proof even after 20 years. We have tried the Cobalts and they have some nice features (namely smaller and the lever lock connectors make wiring easy, but they are noisy and so far we have not had any installed for over 3 years so who knows what problems they may have after 20 years. Instead of the time and effort to do the screws and nuts have you tried a simple dab of epoxy on the two plastic pins? Don't know how long it will last but non of us will know for at least another 20 years if it works as good as the original.
I totally get your point. 20 years is good going for household electronics. I just didn't expect to have serious problems with the switches inside the Tortoise motors on a shorter timeframe. The problem for us is they start failing in a random manner after 5 years. After 20 years 75% of the switches have sheered off. `We hadn't made a plan to replace 440 motors... These switches are linked to the feedback and the frogs. Think of it more as having a friend who was considered to be dependable and then you find out they are not. Painful. As to longevity - we live and hope...
I would struggle to put them little bolts in big hands. Like a lot of thinks built in faults, so they can sell spares, Or sell you more thanks for checking the new ones. The fault still there, bet Charlie is not happy he has the same motors.
Larry Puckett, the DCC Guy, has had trouble with tortoise wipers destroying the actual wiper tracks. Frankly, I wouldnt touch tortoise pm's and recommend DCC Concepts IP Analogs which are smaller and better made.
Circuitron should not be selling a jig to correct their design flaw, they should design a better nonfailing part for their new motors & offer free replacement parts for existing customers.
Triggered discovery that much younger ones had also failed or were on point of failing. And revealed the company behind them was not exactly geared up to remedy the design and manufacturing issues
Clearly a failure is annoying but a) i presume yours get hammered compsred to your average joe with a small layout in the loft and b) 40% are lasting 20 years? Surely you cant expect 100% efficacy over 2 decsdes of hard use........
It's the nature of the failure and subsequent unacceptable response by the company that provides them that shouldn't happen. Failures found in much more recent motors. Total failure of that %age but then finding almost all are exhibiting the problem of loose connector even if not yet broken off, not fixed in new products by company that sells them, other people have same problem. Recently saw a video about bricks from London Brick Company that tells similar story. Stuck in 1950s to 1970s British industry quality control and design and manufacturing inadequacies
on Sunday night, MDT, the web site for McKinley railway is down; I sent an email to circuitron and got in contact with there with Steve Worack - he would like to talk to you
These devices like anything else related to the hobby are in essence just toys built to a price. They are not scientific instruments which have to be built to an exacting tolerance, or obviously real life rail infrastructure where safety and reliability have to be paramount. Obviously with the huge complexity if your model railway you are by necessity creating issues that these products, designed as they are by tiny manufacturers, were never developed to ensure the reliability that you are looking for. Still it's good to see you have found a solution, but perhaps its important not to lose sight that you are just 'playing' with toy trains, and not running a real railway! All that said i am probably the last to talk, I know if I have an issue with my tiny layout, it's very easy to lose sleep!!
Yet again another most professional attempt at analysing, in what has become a serious problem for the Tortoise motors. I applaud this type of effort and is quite typical of the Mackinley Team in identifying decent solutions. Of note though is that the manufacturer, typical these days, refuses to do the right thing, take a lead and correct this. I am afraid I won't be using Tortoise motors and I daresay many others will be the same..
That would be a bad decision as, despite their problems, Tortoises are still the best point motors available. A better approach would be to first open up each new Tortoise and fix the contacts in place with a 1mm screw. Don't worry about the warranty as I have never ever seen a Tortoise fail within the warranty period.
I have a layout with ~200 Tortoises, some of which were installed almost 30 years ago and yes, some of the contacts are failing. I repair them with the 1mm screw and expect that they will then last nearly forever.
You might already, but make sure you mark the units that have had the fix with the bolts. May help speed things up when fault finding.
Yikes! I’ve got 118 on my layout and I always thought they were bomb proof. No problems so far but I’ll know what to look for after your detailed investigation and explanation. Thanks David. Hugh
Thanks for posting, very useful info and advice.
Here’s hoping the cobalts have upgraded. I had issues with them over time where they do not stall correctly. What I mean by this is the point blades seat correctly but the motor keeps operating, clicking. Before you say they need to be readjusted I have tried this too. I then uninstalled the problem motor and it continued to show the same issues.
I wonder if there have been any like problems with DCC Concepts Cobalt point motors or whether they have an alternative security arrangement?
Great analysis and innovative fix, all very well presented as usual! I'm surprised that such a popular point motor should have these issues without being noticed sooner! Keep up the good work! Ian
Excellent video David, with some really useful information, thank you for telling us about it.
As for the Tortoise motors, I think that is just incredibly.
I also agree, Costal DCC, are highly recommended, plus DCC Automations, who also have the complete range of the MTB point motors.
Oh my god, I have 50 Tortoise point motors on my layout, NONE of them are accessible without removing the 31 track boards which were desinged in case of need of removal. My loft layout is also prone to a lot more extreme temperatures than your indoor layout. I could cry. I don't THINK I have had problems as yet, I will now test them all. Thank you for the video.
great helpful video as always. it amazes me that you are able to face such a big problem at such a big scale and still deal with it. fare a play to you
Those jigs are a great solution for speeding up the fixes. I am sharing your video with my clubs maintenance group. Our layout has several tortoises in locations that aren't easily accessible and the next time a more flexible member is present, we shall check for this flaw
I have about 100 Tortoises on my layout and I have experienced this same problem and fixed it in a similar way. I also have found that at one end of the throw there is enough torque on the arm to lift the contact wiper off the contacts. This occurs if there is insufficient tension on the wiper fingers. This manifests itself as the switch acts as expected until the end of throw is reached.
I thought that was what our problem was on the old layout. I imagined that we had scoured the PCB by having a skew force on the wipers. It was the case on a few (say 10) and that is down to us poorly fitting them in the first place. Good luck with your repairs.
A great vid, thanks for sharing. Interesting that the manufacturer hasn’t addressed in inherent fault. The experiences you have had with these Tortoise motors, we too have had on our large exhibition layout. Old Elms Road has been on the exhibition road for about 20 years now & has had maybe half of the installed ones failing. Our fix was fitting micro switches in place of the internal ones. We will be embarking on checking & repairing all our stock. Thanks once again & keep up the good work.
That ties up with my thinking. I could have gone with the external switches, but we found it hard to get the left and right handed micro switches with contact levers the same length. In the end we gone for the 'industrial' nut and bolt solution. We still have to upgrade the 240 switches on the extension. What a mission. Thanks for taking time to comment.
David
I was going to bring-up the fingernail varnish trick but you already realized it. I've been doing that for 45 years ever since John Hillyer taught me it during my apprenticeship at Hillyer's TV in Stamford
An interesting quandry especially in light of the number of points. Typical that you find out about an alternative after you have carried out the upgrade. I am glad you have let Charle know since he has tortoise motors on his layout.
Well! You've got me worried! Admittedly I've only got about 10 installed, and I'm only switching frogs, but a worry none the less. Thanks for that interesting and comprehensive analysis!
If you are only switching the frogs, can I suggest you wire both switches in parallel. That halves your ultimate failure rate.
David
@@dattoukvery true! Good idea!
Fascinating video David and a great solution and fix. 👍It is a pity the makers aren't making more of an effort to cure the problem at production. 🤷♂️
Very informative. I plan to start building my layout next year. I just assumed I would be using Tortoise motors. Seems that I may have to re-evaluate given the information you have provided. Thanks! You may have saved me a lot of future pain.
By all means stick with them. If you only want to switch the frog polarity, join the switch outputs in parallel. That cuts down the problem rate by 75%. As I have stated above, the motors have never never failed. Its just because I was using both switches for different purposes...
Happy to see your back David 😊 great video
I would love to see running videos, showing some stills of models and buildings, as they have progressed since the last running video. Thanks
Its coming. I am as desperate as you to get running days up.
Ouch, don't know about you guys at McKinley, but even my eye's started too water when you started to talk numbers and problem. Feel for Pete M1.2 bolts and even more pain with the M1.2 nuts :(
On the bright side twenty year's of service one could say that's excellent, and with a solution to get god knows how many more. The thing that would concern me is the one's failing sooner. I like the look of them MTB point motors. All the best with the layout, would love too see it in person.
Well done on such a simple fix to the problem. Thread lock is normally applied to the bolt threads thus locking the nut to the threads. I don’t think a dab of nail varnish, will penetrate the threads enough. And you maybe experiencing the same wiper movement, in a few years down the line
Good point. I hope you will be wrong, but thanks for the heads up.
@@dattouk Not wishing to put a downer on the mission, as I’m unsure of the torque that the slides under. but they used to put shellac coating on nuts&bolts in radios. After a few years that cracked from vibrations. Hope your fix will work and the varnish is thicker and will hold upto the job better that the plastic pins did
@@dattoukloctite do a penetrating adhesive that you put on after assembly. It's wicking.
@gs425 It's great for bicycle bolts too. Been using it for years
WOW 😮 David what a nightmare 🫣 I don’t use tortoise 🐢 motors on my layout as it’s only a small one and I use H&M clunky point motors and they’ve been fine for me for many years. Glad seeing you back on RUclips with an update on McKinley 👍🏻 Cheers Stevie
Great video. I hope you're marking the points that you've converted.
Great heads up and indeed a perfectly acceptable fix.
Could we please see some trains working varying routes?
Thank you for doing this video. Professional, calmly presented and the repair is pretty straight forward. Considering the price of the tortoise point motors, I must say this is disappointing considering the price of the motors. I hope there is a revision of the design to help combat this issue in the future. Heat staking, which is the term used for the way they mount these, really is not a secure way of mounting contacts that experience a lot of movement. The screws are really a good idea.
The failures appear to be random in the sense that they are not linked to usage or specifically time. We have had 5 fail on the new extension (240 points) which were relatively new and unused. The manufacturer has replied to me and is looking into this problem. I presume he will try and upgrade the mechanism. I am not sure that moving to a different supplier would fix anything. I hear similar yet different failure stories about them too. Regards,
David
Im a professional layout builder and we dont use them or Cobalts. We use servos all the time and the MegaPoints system to control them. When they fail, which is not very often they are cheap to replace. The MegaPoints system can control relays too.
Hello David, you have fallen into the same trap I have. Your lovely snippet - 'When they fail' - Most point motors are not installed in accessible locations as we never presume they will fail. Let me know what happens over the next 20 years.
I am just starting building my layout. Partly due to the exorbitant price of Tortoises, I opted to go with traditional solenoid-style motors. The other reason is they have a huge profile requiring a lot of clearance.
It is a shame that Circuitron is aware of the issue and chooses to do nothing to fix it. And for that, it will be a very long time before I support that kind of corporate behaviour.
Dear David, very interesting episode, definitely appreciate the way you’ve shown the arm failure. It will be interesting to see what Circuitron’s reply is going to be. On the video of the open heart surgery, as the arm swings, there’s enough room for the contacts to be folded around the arm, maybe even all the way into the U shape of the lever. That will also allow for mechanical joinery on the ‘axis’ of the lever, which will make the entire connection more stronger and most of all more durable. Or, when Circuitron would change this design to fold around contact points, I could even imagine a slotted mount, with which the spring action of the copper will sit sturdy all by itself.
Curious to see what your experiences with the Cobalts will bring.
On the ‘point’ you made on the Tortoises being freely moving; James from Bexhill West, made some excellent videos on the factual movement and friction servos in general produce. Although this movement may be appropriate to keep pressure on the point blades, it also produces the friction which could be the root cause of the contact’s mount being so vulnerable to failure.
To solve this problem James designed his very own point motor system, which moves completely in line with the point rod. His system consists of a three or two point attachment on the throw bar. Also, his point motor system is equipped with at least two micro switches attached to the movement mechanism.
Another great example of the in line movement putting less pressure on the throw bar is from Steve Muskokee, who some years ago used Circuitron’s remote operating appendage to throw one of the turnouts on his layout, where he wasn’t able to place a Tortoise directly under the baseboard at the location of the turnout.
Bexhill West and Steve Muskokee can be found here on RUclips. Cheerio
Folks, I use both Tortoises and Cobalt iP Digitals on my layout, and in spite of having to repair a few I am still pleased with the performance and longevity. I have been using Tortoises for over 20 years and I think that those I have had to repair were preowned ones I bought off eBay or train shows so no idea how much use they have seen. One thing to keep in mind is that Tortoises are guaranteed for 9 years from date of purchase so keep your receipts just in case. Really though, how many other model railroad products are guaranteed for 9 years? Recently I had to develop a 3D model of the main axle gear on my Hornby West Country Class Bulleid Pacifics because it had cracked. Since Hornby no longer makes replacements for that release I had to have some custom printed.
The only point to add is that the warranty is not really the worth much when a point fails in its job. You have to climb under the layout , de-solder the connections, take out four screws and send it off to America. This problem is a latent defect which the manufacturer has known about for years...
Wow, you guys had a serious problem, now it seems to be solved! Well done.
Thanks for sharing. What about the digital snail motors . These are same as yours but new digital motor. Will in time would these fail as well. I about to install 14 off these motors. It be nice to see McKinley running the full layout. Cheers have a good day 😊
that just seems like the manufacturer don't care about customers finding faults, I would have thought they would been straight onto it & made an upgraded modifed fix for their system, but thanks for video on what to lookout for & how to fix it.
Enough people are buying them that they don't think a problem 5+ years down the road is worth the expense of altering how they make them. Only if enough customers complain will they likely do anything. It is possible unser UK consumer laws there could be a case to answer with regards fit for purpose and or manufacturers defects, but that would require a legal expert to look at in more detail.
Consumer law- Possibly yes - but I really really don't want to go there. We just want to finish the build and enjoy operating. I get embroiled in enough contract law problems in the day job. Thanks for the thoughts though.
Very interesting video and very well presented. Also lots of gems in the comments.
The design really doesnt seem to be very robust. If I was the manufacturer I would want to be eliminating this problem one way or another maybe its design, maybe process control probably a bit of both. Ultimately they are playing with their reputation.
You have found a belt and braces fix, might be worth checking the varnish that you use in case it has adverse effect on the nearby plastic.
Thanks for explaining so clearly the problem and your solution.
👍👍Wonderful video! Great information to know, Thanks. 🚂🚂
Thanks for this information. I have been having trouble with my home designed signalling system and have been wondering if the tortoise contacts are the cause of incorrect signal aspects. It all worked when I first tested it, but problems have arisen in the last 12 months. The problems are intermittent and related to incorrect point status settings. Looks like I have to dismantle some tortoises and check them out.
Haha, I was gonna say look at MP10 mtb, they have microswitches in them instead of wipers, then you showed one at the end haha. Good video David
The mp5 would probably solve some of the problems James mentioned in the previous video about clearance below the track, Charlie has used them in areas where his helix prevents tortoises being used. I wonder if Charlie will have a video on this subject as he's likely to get the message out to a wider audience than mckinley as they have I think slightly different appeal to each other.
I had the same problem and actually used the same solution to fix them with the bolts on 3 out of 12 that had broken and was going to do the same to the remainder. But since bolting them on I found they are wearing down the board to the point that they no longer function at all. By bolting them they don’t have the loose play in them and really compromise the board. I’m just glad I didn’t have that many and was able to swap them out.
Thank you for this informative video.
But how do you get them working again can you tell me in detail Bill
Well done David, and the team! Shame you had to modify all those though.
we have a load of tortoises, the jig would be really useful to have one of those jigs, I could print myself, would you share the stl file for that purpose?
I re-wought this a few times to try get right, But the first thing I thought, plastic lug/rivit holding what a failure, but on second tought if a car / motorcyle plastic lug had failed after 5-7 years we would just replace with out question! I assume from the vlog if it is a bit of modeled plastic melted over the copper pickup, which would variable due to time / heat to form the seal. Also 20 years service that's nearly a third of life! (I am 62) from what is a over compilated simple switch design from the late 2000's prob even older! I would say well done to the Tortoise motors for having lasted so long. McKinley Railway has shown there is a issiue with a problem of design, and found a time consuming rectification. After all we as modelers tend to buy into a manufactor's products, I have gong back to good old DC thinking that DCC is getting too or over compucated and expensive for my needs for is a said hobby! I sorry if I have upset people with my words but are us as modelers spending too much money on the likes of eg Bachmann/Hornby and not getting to most out of our layouts? Yes McKinley is a large layout and more compucated but in real terms is half what we are sold needed?
Hello Mr Vinny, I accept that 20 years is a good time, but if I knew when I bought the first batch that 60% would need to have the switch mechanisms replaced in time (and we are talking about problems starting at 5 years here), I would have taken a great deal more care in installing them in accessible places. We all thought they were the bee's knees. I feel for your about your frustrations with DCC but my problem is about mechanical switches failing.
Great information video.
It's bizarre as I've been working on my much simpler Fleischmann points today, replacing two points with unreliable operation and repairing other failed Fleischmann magnetic coil point motors..
OK, sometimes the fun in this hobby is watching the process of someone else fixing a problem. The Tortoise was a big step up from previous switch motors, which were too easy to burn out. Thanks.
Great video David and thanks for sharing the Tortoise fix. I’ve got 24 new Tortoises ready to go and now feel compelled to do the mod before I fit them! Please can you tell me what length M1.2 bolts you used?
3mm. You can buy them on ebay.
I've had a few fail the same way. Screws is how I fixed them. I've also had 1 motor failier and two gear failures
I would be interested to know what Charlie Bishop plans to do with his layout. Will he switch to Cobalt for the last sections of track to be completed? I've had a different problem with Cobalt's but they told me about the issue with the digital IP's and replaced them for me for free. I can't complain about the service from DCC Concepts, 1st class!
Good information - thank you.
Very interesting video, and an excellent bit of problem solving (something railway modellers need to be good at!)
I wonder if the McKinley team dismantled any of the Cobalt and MP point motors to confirm whether or not their mechanics were less likely to affected by such issues?
Just a shame Circuitron/Tortoise won't acknowledge the problem: there are two obvious things they could address - how they fix the contacts to the plastic arm, and the composition of the plastic arm. Some (many?) plastics denature over time, so it could be that a reformulated plastic could make them last 22 years... I remember we had a problem with some Peco concrete sleeper Streamline track (laid late 60s/early 70s I think) where the plastic denatured (softened) so much over 20/25 years that the gauge of the track spread, and the track had to be replaced. Wooden sleepered track of the same vintage laid at the same next to the concrete sleepered track didn't have any issue, so it can only have been down to the formulation of the plastic Peco were using for concrete sleepers at the time. While it's over 20 years since the track was replaced, unfortunately the layout is no more, so I can't really say if it improved!
Plastic formulation can matter a lot! Tower plastic electrical conduit, especially flexible, used to become brittle over a couple of years such that it shattered explosively into sharp shards that cut if they hit you (missed our eyes). Other companies had a different formula that didn't shatter.
Probably not relevant for you now, but when Lawrence was still running CML, I spoke to him about the power draw of the original Cobalt motors. His elegant solution (on the DAC20) was simply to add a pair of 1K resistors to supply additional current when needed (but not enough to dislodge the Cobalt when not needed).
I'm sure a similar trick would work on the DS54 should you want to add those dozen Cobalts in the future.
Thanks for the update.
Coming from a Telecommunications background, back in the days of Strowger telephone exchange equipment, the mechanical wiper blade equipped switching gear used then needed frequent routine maintenance and cleaning. There were dozens of engineers per telephone exchange performing this ongoing, never ending schedule.
The wiper blades on the switch gear also required setting at a particular pressure against the contact bed. I imagine that you are cleaning your phosphor bronze wipers before re-placing them back into their Tortoise bodies as a matter of common sense, but have you being checking the wiper's spring pressure against the contact bed/board? This could possibly lead to problems if too light or too heavy! I noticed from your video that there's four spring wipers per unit, which should ideally all need individually checking!
All electro mechanical apparatus will need maintaining so don't think you'll solve all the reliability problems for ever. Also, the electronics boards which have served you so well so far will probably have components that will fail over time, especially electrolytic capacitors. Luckily these do tend to last for decades rather than years usually, but there are always dodgy batches of all electronic components and manufacturing issues as they are produced across the world with varying standards!
Your magnificent marathon of a layout project, splendid as it is, I fear may perhaps prove to be too complex, too potentially worrisome, glitchy and maintenance time heavy when balanced against the expected enjoyment of actual use, such is the reality of these technologies. I really hope not and that you get to use it as intended. All I know is that my own layout takes up 60% of my time in maintenance and issues and only 40% using and enjoying!
Regards Julian.
If I was in your situation I'd be revisiting fitting external switches. Industrial micro swtiches are far more reliable and would be easy to test
Would you kindly share the STL file for the drilling jig so the rest of us can fix our tortoise motor arms?
I will ask Steve Cross if he can help.
... and Tortoises ain't cheap!
On my tiny layout I use servos and arduinos.
Do Circuitron know of this prediciment , and what should change in the maurfactering of this product ?
They do now.. and I am not sure what they will do about it.
One can clearly sense your frustration over all this, David. A pity that the manufacturer doesn't seem particularly concerned.
Me? I'll stick to my digital control of points; ie using my finger...
Great video and information. My layout is relatively new and when I started after watching yourself and Charlie I was going to use Tortoise but ultimately went for MTB because of space under the boards I have not had any issues (yet).
I would suggest that you use some form of Loctite to prevent the nuts coming loose.
Presumably, the very act of heating the plastic pins on assembly of the wiper to the arm, compromises the plastic in the long term (leaving aside the possibility that it doesn’t result in a very good joint in the first place). Just a thought about the ‘fix’ itself - to get around the lack of thread depth in the rear face of that arm and eliminate the need to use a nut, you could 3D-print a plastic strip to fit in that rear cavity (with suitably spaced holes of tapping size already moulded into it), allowing the use of self-tapping screws after all.
Probably we could but... The reality is once we found what we thought was a dependable solution and worked out how to make a jig to drill the holes, we just want to get on with fixing them. There are so many challenges that come up with building this layout that once we find 'a fix' for a problem we move on to the next one. Thanks for the comments. Regards, David
Would it be easier to cast a resin plug in the area under the contacts and the you could just use a screw into the resin plug without having to use the nuts? Another option might be to 3D print the motor arms with a solid section under the attachment point. You may even be able if you wanted to continue to use the nuts, print a nut area above each hole to facilitate holding the nut while installing and tightening the bolt. Just thoughts to ease the rebuild of the arms. Good luck.
I have no idea about casting - It might be easier - we worked out how to get a solution and then we decided to stick with it. I hope it works. Once we got the jig made we became very dexterous is screwing the M1.2 nuts onto the bolts. The packs from Amazon came with a nut holder which was very convenient. Pete and Ivana are the fastest - I am the slowest.
OK good luck , it's good to see you have a solution.@@dattouk
Very well done analysis and discussion of solutions. Rather damning news for Tortoise. Now I have a dilemma, use the ones I have or consider something else. One point you do not make, the possibility of the wipers floating around in the mechanism is a threat even if you do not use the built in switches.
Yep, had a couple do this to me.
David, Using pre-packaged products for point motors is obviously very appealing but does carry risks which sadly do seem in this case to have materialised. Obviously McKinley is very invested in this approach and really starting again is not a viable way forward so it seems that your postscript #3 approach is a good way out of the problem - but a lot of work.
Just as food for thought... in case there needs to be a postscript #4 in future.
On my test layout I am attempting to take a different approach altogether. I'm using RKEducation point servo motors (under £5 each) directly PWM controlled by an ESP32 Mini board (about £8) each of which can control at least 2 of those motors. The ESP32 and the point motors are all powered from a single USB port (a hub). A single microswitch is activated by each point motor and simply feeds into separate pins on the ESP32, allowing it to confirm the turnout state. The ESP 32 controls a dual opto-isolated relay (£2.50) which switches each of the frogs as needed. The ESP32 can - as you will know - do Wi-Fi connectivity and I am using the ESP_NOW point to point (MAC to MAC) software to allow the ESP32 to send and receive commands and provide status feedback to my central control node which also interfaces to my YAMORC DCC controller (so no control points control wiring, no Wi-Fi hub needed and no driver boards required).
For maximum ease of access I am mounting all this stuff on the front edge of my test baseboard and using slotted-in wire rods to transmit the movement to the points. My hope is that this will save me from the problem of having to work underneath the baseboard on point motors in future, which I have seen from so many videos (yours, Charlie's, Rob at Little Wicket and others) can be a horrible job.
It's only a prototype arrangement but I have it working - changing points once per 10 seconds for the last 8 days - and no problems as yet. So, about £10 per point + 10 port USB hub (about £20) - and of course software to write and enclosures etc. It's a bit more time consuming putting this together than buying something ready made, and you do need a little expertise on ESP32 (Arduino IDE) programming - but if it scales up it's a lot cheaper and IMO more maintainable. Overall I have more time than money so I may well end up embracing this approach.
Hello Alan,
Thank you for your extensive reply. As I have explained elsewhere above, my problem is about the mechanical switches. The motors and the stationary decoders have worked together for years and I have never had a point motor failure. We managed to avoid the problems of stalled locos on dead frogs because of all the pickups. Having hit this problem at a very late stage after fitting 240 tortoise motors to the new extension, the thought of installing something new and having to rewire all the points with a different solution filled me with dread. Once we had a practical mechanical solution (which the manufacturer suggested) we got on with it. Problem solved - don't look back - fix the next problem mindset. Anyway, thank your for your time and input and good luck with your prototype... regards David
From experience of nuts and bolts generally I would have used washers and spring washers to make them more secure and prevent the possibility of them loosening off, not because they will, but because they could and it saves the faff of doing it all again.
Also, I reckon the cause of failure is not necessarily the plastic failing through age per se, although that could be a factor, but that it's not being helped by the spring effect of the contact strip mounting point straining the hot melted piece of securing plastic causing a minute amount of abrasive effect.
Similarly, we used a particular type of supposedly heavy-duty picture hook. Then pictures started falling to the floor. The plastic hook was snapping at the point where the picture cord (not wire) hung on the curve of the hook. No movement, just gravity, like a weighted wire through ice. Pictures well within stated weight tolerance of hooks. No obvious evidence of impending catastrophic (for picture frame and glass failure. A friend works in Non-Destructive Testing to detect where such failure matters - big time!
What a pain though. Either a lot of work, or at minimum, a new expense.
Is the drilling jig available as a 3d print file?
No that I know of... I'll ask the man who did it for me.
Do You think this could also Happen in the Smails ???
What is/are the Smails?
Would the IP Digital points be any better i wonder? Glad i chose not to go with the tortoise points myself.
Good question, but no because we already had 44 control boards to drive the 192 points. That would be more expense. I fundamentally don't want to drive my points through DCC for resiliance. I restrict DCC for driving Locos and keep everything else on LocoNet or IP..
David
A rather time consuming and challenging problem to resolve. Even with your fix you have sadly no guarantees that it will be effective longer term as could be causing weaknesses in the plastic and some plastics will go brittle over time, which could be a factor with the original failure. You may be best doing some testing on alternatives including the mp10 so you have a future replacement option available to you given you may still have ticking time bombs under your boards.
Although the back end stuff like this is important it would maybe nice to see some scenery and scratchbuilding videos thanks
Larry Puckett (@TheDCCGuy) did a similar video a few years ago - Video 69: Cure For a Sick Tortoise. He used small screws so your solution using nuts and bolts is better.
I’m really surprised you didn’t go back to the manufacturer and ask for replacement arms with secure contacts. Simple and no expense. Or for the any new layouts use relays to do all the switching for you.
The manufacturer offered to sell me replacement arms at cost and didn't believe there was a problem As the new arms are identical to what I have and would 'probably' suffer the same fate in 5 to 10 years, it wouldn't have made any difference. Hence why we bit the bullet. For me Its important to have a running railway. If I can figure out a solution relatively quickly then we go for it.
The important metric is not the life in years, but the number of cycles of point movement a point motor has experienced. Can your computer systems tell you now many cycles a particular motor has experienced? This should help you to determine how likely a particular motor is to tail using a statistical analysis such as the classic Weibull reliability analysis.
It was interesting at the end that he pointed out that a point that hardly got used failed too. So it seems it has nothing to do with the number of cycles it has run.
@@mikeuk1954 Yes - he said that the plastic failed due to age, not use.
No. Plastic can denature over time whether used or not. Depends on formulation. I posted about Tower electrical conduit and some big brand pictures hooks that denatured without friction or other movement related stresses. Some plastic will denature very quickly or is far too brittle from the start
It took me 5 long years for my dream layout did find the MP1 and the MP5 switch machine they did check off the list of what i wanted in a Tortoise i was quoted at the time 350 Canadian dollars for 12 Tortoises when i was in the plans of a layout too found them lot cheaper in the price i got 36 of them mp5 for 12 of the Tortoise
you have different boards to choose from easy to instill too and just if i blind man can do it your can too
Wow! Thanks for sharing and shocked at manufacturers still using mechanical moving switch contact blades that you have demonstrated to be mechanically unreliable and is shortening the life-span of this premium product (Tortoise). Had assumed manufacturers would be using electronic switching such as Optocouplers or opto-isolator solid state switching relays that protect the feedback circuits coming in contact with the power rails voltages.
Totally agree, and at the price they charge, I would have EXPECTED to see electronic switching. I will never buy one of these bricks.
Very interesting video David. On the evidence presented unless they revamp the parts in the Tortoise it could lead to most people not using them. Of course, were this to be a car there would be an immediate recall. I wonder how many Tortoise motors have been sold over the twenty year period discussed? I have been contemplating Tortoise motors but now I think I will stay as I am with a mixture of the traditional Peco and Seep varieties.
Thanks for enlightening us.
And my Shimano Ultegra bike cranks have a global recall of many millions of items.
Back in 1976, new Falcon Eddy Merckx bike, I had my right aluminium crank snap as I put pressure on a small hill arpund Gotham, between Loughborough and Nottingham - just as a car was passing. Luck, my bike handling, or God decided my time was not yet up. Rode with one pedal to Sid Standen, Beeston, where he apologised and replaced crank and chainring
Can’t you modify the new motors before you use them?
Yes you can. That is what I am doing on all new Tortoise installs.
Have you considered painting PVA onto the problem area before they come loose, Although it is still a lot of work it may be an easier solution than drilling and putting in nuts and screws.
I am in the optical business. You can get tiny nylox nuts that would be perfect.
as you have concluded there is a manufacturing issue with these motors; it maybe possible to use consumer rights to get a remedy with the manufacturer. it doesn't matter how long you have had the motors or whether they are within warranty, the fact is there is a fault, would be worth getting additional feedback .
I would think it difficult to fault a manufacturer for a product that works well for 10 to 20 years.
Agreed.
Well hopefully Tortoise will realise they need to come up with a V2 if they don’t want to loose all their market share to the Cobalt. Fair play in trying to find and engineering solution.
Thanks Pete,
Kinda amusing this. Man creates major model railway. Man models the maintenance plans of a full scale railway. I wonder how often a full scale railway would have it's point mechanics changed over 20 years.
Disappointing that even after making the manufacturer aware, they're not changing the design. 60% failure rate is drastic!
Let’s hope if there are enough complaints made a design change will occur.
The Problem is one of how the wipers are attached at manufacture and while the bolt fix is a time intensive fix it does what should be a perm fix where you wont have the same thing happen and as you stated the rest of the thing has proved to be so reliable that it seems strange that the manufacturer is not making changes that will remove the one fault that is consistant in their product. To me this should be something anyone that uses the point motors should do when buying them to use so they remove the failure point from the start but of course there is the dredded void if removed warranty issue. As for manufacturer doing the fix themselves they will claim that is why the external board was made to take away the problem but it is a half fix as the problem will still happen and the contacts will float about inside and make random conections or jam up things causing other problems. Obviously the cost to make a perma fix to the product at manufacture is such that they think it is not worth it and likely base this on the number of people reporting this problem ie the number of people that use those internal switches.
I'm really sorry for you problems, well explained. Surely product not fit for purpose? You have spent Thousands on these, you must have a course of compensation? I'm not one to jump on a compo wagon, but that is not fair at all!😮
I really dont want to pursue a compensation route. We have had 20 years of service out of the motors on the old layout in the sense that they did switch the points. Its more about the loss of time. You are right about it not being fair, but if I allowed that to colour my world, I'd be chasing the model manufacturers and getting even more worked up than I am now.
Hi. David. I get your frustration on this. Your problems stem from the manufacturer not defining critical performance parameters. E.g. number of operations, current, voltage, whether ac or dc or both operation and the type of load - resistive, inductive, time constant for dc etc for the contacts and switch assembly. All these are critical factors that define the loads we as modellers switch on our layouts. Look at any relay in wide scale use and you will get this data and more - because those manufacturers work to standards and their customers and related standards demand it. Two retailers I have just checked show MTB’s MP 1 with technical data stating it is rated at 1 amp that is it! There are no critical defining voltage(s), whether ac, dc, or type of load and crucially for us all how many operations it will perform/ they have validated it for. So it will be another guessing game. Yes its the same for solenoid point motors too (all the ones I have seen at least), grossly inadequate basic technical data. There is far too much experimentation done by customers on behalf of the manufacturers in this hobby in my opinion.
As you have performed Cicutron’s life testing for them, you have shown that the metallurgy for the fixed and moving contacts over your X millions of operations and your operating environment and different types of loads (inductive and resistive) is sound whenever the moving contact is firmly fixed to the moving armature. For any good electrical contact the two critical characteristics are contact pressure and conducting surface area and you meet that. Your bolts cure your critical design failure/ quality problem and the jig path is exactly what the production engineers I have worked with would have done to ensure consistency of re- assembly. I personally would not experiment with a new suppliers poorly defined kit after your experiences and sound solution to date, looks like you are Circutron’s Research arm now ! Hope this helps. All the best Stephen.
i built a point motor with one cheap servo, one 3d printed part a hex nut and a point rod. costs less than 2£ and i've tested it & it has switched over 7'500'000 times without failure and no sign of wear! reach out if you're interested:)
and its about as big as the cobalt (or even a bit smaller) at 52Lx33Wx14H (except for the liftarm which extends to about 25-30mm
there are no switches yet, i inted to design a pcb that detects a magnet with a hall sensor and some PIC to make it fully solid state
Thank you for the offer. The challenge was twofold. If we moved away from the Tortoise, it would mean re-wiring 440 points AND having to replace 48 DS54 stationary decoders because of power requirements. We tried the available switches, which didn't work with the DS54s (power load) - My concerns were driven around cost and time to repair. We know the tortoise motors work - I have never had a motor failure. It was the switches which failed over a 20 year period. So fixing the existing switch arms ended up being the default choice..
My question is why are you not using a good super glue instead of the nuts and bolts. There are some really good bonding agents made today so why not use those.
I am no glue expert, but we find superglue to be fragile when subjected to repeated bangs and bumps. We used it to lock the coupling butterflies for the UK NEM coupling pockets. We repeatedly get 'glue fractures' and end up screwing the NEM pockets down. I wanted something mechanical that wouldn't sheer or tear through the plastic. Our solution is a bit old school, but I feel confident they will see me out.
David
@@dattouk Understood, thanks for the reply,
Not to defend Circuitron, but if I could get my cell phone ($1000), laptop ($1500), air conditioning ($5000+), washer ($900), dryer ($900), refrigerator ($3000), automobile ($25,000 for a cheap one) or toaster ($100) for that matter to last 20 years before they failed or had to replace any parts I would be quite happy with that and we are talking about a $20 item you got 20 years out of. That is only $1 dollar per year. I do agree if circuitron has been aware of the problem they should fix it and I commend you on your solution and maybe we will start doing this fix out of the box on all of our layout builds going forward because like you say the motors and gears and electronic boards are still bullet proof even after 20 years. We have tried the Cobalts and they have some nice features (namely smaller and the lever lock connectors make wiring easy, but they are noisy and so far we have not had any installed for over 3 years so who knows what problems they may have after 20 years.
Instead of the time and effort to do the screws and nuts have you tried a simple dab of epoxy on the two plastic pins? Don't know how long it will last but non of us will know for at least another 20 years if it works as good as the original.
I totally get your point. 20 years is good going for household electronics. I just didn't expect to have serious problems with the switches inside the Tortoise motors on a shorter timeframe. The problem for us is they start failing in a random manner after 5 years. After 20 years 75% of the switches have sheered off. `We hadn't made a plan to replace 440 motors... These switches are linked to the feedback and the frogs. Think of it more as having a friend who was considered to be dependable and then you find out they are not. Painful. As to longevity - we live and hope...
I would struggle to put them little bolts in big hands. Like a lot of thinks built in faults, so they can sell spares, Or sell you more thanks for checking the new ones. The fault still there, bet Charlie is not happy he has the same motors.
Larry Puckett, the DCC Guy, has had trouble with tortoise wipers destroying the actual wiper tracks. Frankly, I wouldnt touch tortoise pm's and recommend DCC Concepts IP Analogs which are smaller and better made.
Circuitron owes you for this. How many others are going to have the same kind of issue? You should sell them the jig :)
Circuitron should not be selling a jig to correct their design flaw, they should design a better nonfailing part for their new motors & offer free replacement parts for existing customers.
Yep - that's what I meant - it should be that Circuitron uses the jig to fix customers' products. @@chrissouthgate4554
how is a failure in 20 years use a shock?
Triggered discovery that much younger ones had also failed or were on point of failing. And revealed the company behind them was not exactly geared up to remedy the design and manufacturing issues
Clearly a failure is annoying but a) i presume yours get hammered compsred to your average joe with a small layout in the loft and b) 40% are lasting 20 years? Surely you cant expect 100% efficacy over 2 decsdes of hard use........
It's the nature of the failure and subsequent unacceptable response by the company that provides them that shouldn't happen.
Failures found in much more recent motors. Total failure of that %age but then finding almost all are exhibiting the problem of loose connector even if not yet broken off, not fixed in new products by company that sells them, other people have same problem.
Recently saw a video about bricks from London Brick Company that tells similar story. Stuck in 1950s to 1970s British industry quality control and design and manufacturing inadequacies
good vid omthe channel tghanks lee
my look at this is, you found the fault ,found a way to remedy it ,and i would just stick with doing that way
Yep... Succinctly put Malcolm.
Look into Tam valley frog juicers
on Sunday night, MDT, the web site for McKinley railway is down; I sent an email to circuitron and got in contact with there with Steve Worack - he would like to talk to you
Hello George,
I have sent Steve Worack an email.
Regards
David
These devices like anything else related to the hobby are in essence just toys built to a price. They are not scientific instruments which have to be built to an exacting tolerance, or obviously real life rail infrastructure where safety and reliability have to be paramount.
Obviously with the huge complexity if your model railway you are by necessity creating issues that these products, designed as they are by tiny manufacturers, were never developed to ensure the reliability that you are looking for.
Still it's good to see you have found a solution, but perhaps its important not to lose sight that you are just 'playing' with toy trains, and not running a real railway!
All that said i am probably the last to talk, I know if I have an issue with my tiny layout, it's very easy to lose sleep!!