I was recently watching the first Star Wars movie and thanks to this, I found myself cracking up at the scene where Luke Skywalker is looking off into the setting suns and thinking about the lower sun, "It's not there".
Every time i see Phil here i just laugh untill i cry. His take on Stephen is just hillarious and the pure comedic bitterness in the other two parts are to die for.
If we're going to be technical, I suppose we could argue that the sun dropped below the horizon about 8 minutes and 40 seconds before it appeared to touch the horizon.
The time the light takes to get to the earth, does not matter, since the sun did not move...The sun seems to drop because of the movement of the earth, not because of some movement of the sun.
" and you see it higher than it is" No. The sun doesn't move. The light of the sun doesn't move. You move. You dont'see it higher then it is. The sun is always in the same spot and you always see it in the same spot.
Observ45er You seem to think that after light leaves the sun, the sun moves and it is not longer in the same spot. It does not... The sun and the light are a straight line that doesnt move.They are always in the same spot. We are the ones moving and we hit the beams in a different way. Therefore it doesnt matter when the light left the sun, it is a straight line that doesnt move.
@MickGallagher59 [Lightly] True, but the phrase "the sun going below the horizon" simply refers to the observed phenomenon, its purpose is not to imply that the sun is moving ([humorously] in the same way that no one reads too much into the fact that we use the expression "sunrise" rather than, say, "horizonfall").
I am someone who discovered QI and these people quite late, and I have to tell the world this: every time I see Phil on the panel, I start to giggle, because I've learned very quickly, that he has moments like this. Amazing guy, and the way he can make Stephen blush on occasion is wonderful >
I don't Think the speed of light and the distance from the sun to here is a point that's of àny influence regarding THIS Q &A game... Just sayin' as You HAD to play the "smart card"... It's our atmosphere, bending the visible light more than Allan Carr a member of a boy's band...
***** The question was when it was physically below the horizon, thus that 8 minutes have to be taken into account. The sun is below the horizon 8 minutes earlier than we see it, irregardless of that continuous stream.
+patrick82895 I'm afraid Gareth1961 and Subusi are correct. The question is about how the position of the Sun itself looks from Earth, so it's absolutely necessary to include the travel time of its light. We can't escape the fact that when the sun in relation to the horizon looks as Fry explains (including the light bending effect) - the Sun was physically in that position 8ish minutes ago. It occurs to me there's also a small adjustment to make on top of that, since the Earth managed to achieve 8 minutes of rotation while that light was on its way.
+patrick82895 The question was "Press the button when the sun is below the horizon", and while fry was steering to the mirage part of it, as a quite interesting fact and simplified it by leaving out the other factors, that does not mean those other factors aren't in play. QI isn't always factually accurate. even in their scoring-system they admit it, if you are any bit familiar with the show at least.
+Subosi There are several factors to consider but time traveled is not one. All you are finding out is if the suns position relative to the horizon on earth has already set. And the answer is it has, what we see is a mirage of the sun because light going through the atmosphere bends, showing us the sun below the horizon in reality, but to us it seems that the sun is still setting. Basically you'll notice on images of earth from space showing both light and dark, the earth is not 50:50 light and dark. Its more like 60:40 due to light bending through the atmosphere lighting that extra 10% of the earth (though dimmer) and the mirage is an effect of that.
Further to the above video, but intended as a separate point, we never see the sun "as it is" anyway. Only "as it was" approximately eight minutes previously.
Russ Taylor well, if u want to get quite specific, we never see anything as they are, but only as they were to the picoseconds.. Except the photons, we see photons as they are. Actually no. We see them as they were when they hit the rods and cones,then travel through the nerves, get calculated, then interpreted .
dekker451a We need to be able to compensate for the inability to read body language and intonation in online communications. Clearly, a sarcasm font is required. Can someone please invent one? Sarcastro Sans Serif 14pt or something?
I was so excited when he mentioned mirages! Finally I know about something on one of these clips :) The water on the road is something we all know about, when I was little I thought it was evaporating before we got to it and if we drove fast enough we would catch up
***** Just playing with your pseudonym... Pronounce it as "Nigh Trider. " Nigh as in near, but not quite and 'trider' sort of like a rider... TV sucks & I'm bored. (;-)
***** ha ha I guess so. "trider ~ "rider" . It's not an exact science. If it is "Near" a rider, then it isn't a something U ride, thus the "non"; but the "trider" still sounds like something U do ride, so it is still bicycle like.... Wait a minute! ... This is taking way too long to explain a idiotic pun.... (;-D) Cheers Regards, ScienceAdvisorSteve
At what point does the sun go from non-mirage sun, in other words the actual image of the sun, to a mirage of the sun? And how does this notion account for the time lag between the two images? The sun must appear to stand still or move very slowly for an extended period at the horizon.
I was just thinking at this, and to measure the ”speed of the sun” at different angles. I mean just film the sun at noon, (with filters obviously, ) and see the amount of time to move a diameter. And repeat again and again. And obviously the process of bending will start gradually, but very close to the horizon. with few diameters above, for sure the bend will be minimal. And this is why this trick question does not work, if the sun is setting behind a hill or mountain.
This all depends on the definition of the horizon. If horizon is defined as the limit of our sight across the land (which it is; "The apparent intersection of the earth and sky as seen by an observer.") then the sun is in fact there when we can see it, although our line of sight is not technically straight. Wrong again QI.
Wrong. The horizon line is defined as the intersection of land and sky AS VIEWED BY AN OBSERVER. this means that the effect of the refraction of the sunlight incident on the atmosphere IS taken into account.
***** I think he is saying that if you draw a line on the ground where the horizon is, you will find that this line is blocked from us by the curvature of the earth just like the sun is, the light which travels from the horizon to us allowing us to see where the horizon is bends the same way as the sunlight and for the same reason, so even though the sun is below the curvature of the earth it is physically above the line on the ground that marks where we see the horizon. now I don't know if this is actually the case since the sunlight is passing through the atmosphere from the top as it gradually gets thicker whereas the light from the ground is passing through only ground level atmosphere to get to us, and refraction happens as a result of changing mediums, but it sounds to me like that's what he is saying.
I understood him perfectly well. I think everyone did except Jupitus, and really I think he understood but just saw an opportunity to make a joke about how the show makes him second-guess everything.
I love Phil in this but truth be told the number of times I've watched it is simply down to Ronnie being in the thumbnail - as it is for the 'Would I Lie To You' episode and anything else she's in! Don't know what it is about that face but it draws me in every time!
3:00 Similar here in Canada in the winter when roads have a salty water mix and it dries just a bit it sunlight bouncing off it gives off an incredible glare when the sunlight hits it just right angle as it is setting. It's on roads facing east or west and the sun is at just the right angle it can be so blinding it's impossible to see you just have to pull over and stop.
Weckar - your comment is brilliant (pun intended)! The sun takes about 4 minutes to set. If refraction alone accounts for a full disc-width of the sun's transit, then another 8 minutes means it would be another 2 disc-widths further below the horizon, for a total of 3 disc-widths. Amazing conclusion! I will shall this "Jaxter's Illusion" (having assumed that no one else has ever figured this out)!
"Nooooo. Not theeeere. Miraaaaage." has become a thing in my circle of friends. You have to do your best Stephen, as done by Phil, but. Man, you wouldn't believe how many opportunities in daily life you have to play that card. No. Not there. Miraaaaage.
Brilliant Show..Very different...Stephen Fry has the ability in making every piece of peculiar Trivea fascinating&funny at the same time..miss watching this..(been living in the U.S for 17yrs)..I kinda 4get how good these shows are or Brit T.V in general..Still i'v always. got the Kardashians and President Bill O'Reilly 2keep me informed..Who needs QI..
@kitojmanny [Helpfully] In case you are asking seriously: it is in the shape of a helix (for it to be a spiral, every successive turn would have to be larger than the previous one).
Yes, the light that hits us was originally emitted by the sun 8 minutes previously, but that doesn't have any effect on the angle it comes in at when it reaches us. And since that angle is what we go by when we say that the sun is 'there' in the sky, it's only cases of heavy refraction/ lensing that alters the *angle* of the light's path such as shown in the video where we lose track of the *direction* of where the sun is.
It's not the speed of the rays of light, but the refraction of the light caused by gravity. It's similar to when you stick a pole into a pool - the light creates the image that the pole 'bends' and while the end of the pole looks like it is in one place, it is in fact in another. In short, there is a discrepancy between where the sun appears to be and where it really is due to the image we see being refracted. It's NOT an image that has taken so long to reach us that it is 'out of date'.
Yes, you are correct. Light leaving the sun takes roughly eight minutes to reach the earth. This also means that if the sun was suddenly -not there- (lol), we wouldn't even know until about eight minutes after it happened... err... stopped happening.
Webb said 'spiral' and got the forfeit; a spiral's radius varies from one point to the next. The stairs are helical because they have a constant radius as measured from their central axis.
Thanks for the information, it sounds interesting. I live in Sydney Australia, so I don't get crystal clear air either, but I imagine, but don't know, our air is cleaner than Europe's. I must go on a treasure hunt for some "Bad Astronomy" cheers
Приколы
"NOT THERE!"
"Miiiirrrrraaaaggggeee!!"
gotta love Phil Jupitus!
You can see the moment Phil's mind snaps at 00:39
I love this clip. "As they see the sun setting, the drivers of New Zealand will be reassured to know...IT'S NOT THERE."
Absolutely classic.
i love how alan picks up a kiwi accent when he says "you get quite bad sun strike off the roads, causes accidents"
No
Not there
Mirage
I was recently watching the first Star Wars movie and thanks to this, I found myself cracking up at the scene where Luke Skywalker is looking off into the setting suns and thinking about the lower sun, "It's not there".
HA HA HA. Space Balls! "Welcome to REAL life!"
As a man from New Zealand, I take comfort in the fact the sun isn't there when it blinds me as I drive.
2:52 - Gotta love that dry British humor
can't really catch what he said. Could you enlighten me?
"I dare say that the drivers in New Zealand as they see the sun setting are reassured to know that it's not there"
The only thing that's dry over there.
I love this. It's like with Rich Hall and Earth's second moon
Totally!
I've watched this clip on 3-4 different occasions now and it still literally puts me in tears.
Watched this in SnoopaVision. It was awesome!
This has become a sort of in-joke between my mother and I, and if one says "It's not there!", the other will invariably respond with "Miraage!"
Ronnie Ancona is freaking adorable
+Sci Fi And Banter SHE'S A MIRAGE...
Every time i see Phil here i just laugh untill i cry. His take on Stephen is just hillarious and the pure comedic bitterness in the other two parts are to die for.
Thank you for posting this. I was cracking up all day at work recalling "Not there!". :)
If we're going to be technical, I suppose we could argue that the sun dropped below the horizon about 8 minutes and 40 seconds before it appeared to touch the horizon.
...
The time the light takes to get to the earth, does not matter, since the sun did not move...The sun seems to drop because of the movement of the earth, not because of some movement of the sun.
...
" and you see it higher than it is" No. The sun doesn't move. The light of the sun doesn't move. You move. You dont'see it higher then it is. The sun is always in the same spot and you always see it in the same spot.
Observ45er You seem to think that after light leaves the sun, the sun moves and it is not longer in the same spot. It does not... The sun and the light are a straight line that doesnt move.They are always in the same spot. We are the ones moving and we hit the beams in a different way. Therefore it doesnt matter when the light left the sun, it is a straight line that doesnt move.
@MickGallagher59 [Lightly] True, but the phrase "the sun going below the horizon" simply refers to the observed phenomenon, its purpose is not to imply that the sun is moving ([humorously] in the same way that no one reads too much into the fact that we use the expression "sunrise" rather than, say, "horizonfall").
I am someone who discovered QI and these people quite late, and I have to tell the world this: every time I see Phil on the panel, I start to giggle, because I've learned very quickly, that he has moments like this. Amazing guy, and the way he can make Stephen blush on occasion is wonderful >
Contrary to popular belief it is a helix, not a spiral...
I could quite happily watch all these QI videos all day, they're so funny
There is also the 8 minutes travel time to consider as well.
I don't Think the speed of light and the distance from the sun to here is a point that's of àny influence regarding THIS Q &A game... Just sayin' as You HAD to play the "smart card"...
It's our atmosphere, bending the visible light more than Allan Carr a member of a boy's band...
***** The question was when it was physically below the horizon, thus that 8 minutes have to be taken into account. The sun is below the horizon 8 minutes earlier than we see it, irregardless of that continuous stream.
+patrick82895 I'm afraid Gareth1961 and Subusi are correct. The question is about how the position of the Sun itself looks from Earth, so it's absolutely necessary to include the travel time of its light. We can't escape the fact that when the sun in relation to the horizon looks as Fry explains (including the light bending effect) - the Sun was physically in that position 8ish minutes ago. It occurs to me there's also a small adjustment to make on top of that, since the Earth managed to achieve 8 minutes of rotation while that light was on its way.
+patrick82895 The question was "Press the button when the sun is below the horizon", and while fry was steering to the mirage part of it, as a quite interesting fact and simplified it by leaving out the other factors, that does not mean those other factors aren't in play. QI isn't always factually accurate. even in their scoring-system they admit it, if you are any bit familiar with the show at least.
+Subosi There are several factors to consider but time traveled is not one. All you are finding out is if the suns position relative to the horizon on earth has already set. And the answer is it has, what we see is a mirage of the sun because light going through the atmosphere bends, showing us the sun below the horizon in reality, but to us it seems that the sun is still setting. Basically you'll notice on images of earth from space showing both light and dark, the earth is not 50:50 light and dark. Its more like 60:40 due to light bending through the atmosphere lighting that extra 10% of the earth (though dimmer) and the mirage is an effect of that.
Phil's impression is brilliant
phil jupitus is amazing
well......they say of the acropolis where the Parthenon is....
Further to the above video, but intended as a separate point, we never see the sun "as it is" anyway. Only "as it was" approximately eight minutes previously.
Russ Taylor well, if u want to get quite specific, we never see anything as they are, but only as they were to the picoseconds..
Except the photons, we see photons as they are.
Actually no. We see them as they were when they hit the rods and cones,then travel through the nerves, get calculated, then interpreted .
The sun is never where you see it...
I;m sure no one has ever mentioned this before but Ronnie Ancona is quite physically attractive.
I can assure you that it's been mentioned tons of times before, and we all thought it
holdemehha Thanks, but my first clause was sarcastic.
dekker451a We need to be able to compensate for the inability to read body language and intonation in online communications. Clearly, a sarcasm font is required. Can someone please invent one? Sarcastro Sans Serif 14pt or something?
Or a sarcasticon.
dekker451a You could use a sarcastrophe.. (if you remember that from the Imbroglio episode)
I was so excited when he mentioned mirages! Finally I know about something on one of these clips :) The water on the road is something we all know about, when I was little I thought it was evaporating before we got to it and if we drove fast enough we would catch up
3:38 wouldve been really funny if that was a forfeit LOL
I tried to hit the like button, but it's not there...
Nigh Trider. Sounds like some futuristic bicycle-like non-vehicle... (;-)
Observ45er What's a bicycle-like non-vehicle?
***** Just playing with your pseudonym... Pronounce it as "Nigh Trider. "
Nigh as in near, but not quite and 'trider' sort of like a rider...
TV sucks & I'm bored. (;-)
Observ45er I got that, I just don't get what a bicycle-like non-vehicle is.
The nigh bit making it so it's almost a trider? Is that what you mean?
***** ha ha I guess so. "trider ~ "rider" . It's not an exact science. If it is "Near" a rider, then it isn't a something U ride, thus the "non"; but the "trider" still sounds like something U do ride, so it is still bicycle like.... Wait a minute! ... This is taking way too long to explain a idiotic pun.... (;-D)
Cheers
Regards, ScienceAdvisorSteve
Best line: "Despite Phil's reluctance to understand it."
Maybe the best line ever?
That is the best impersonation of Stephen Fry I've ever seen. ^_^
you know, since we can't have nice things like this in the US can we at least have the blu-rays on amazon?? ill gladly buy all seasons from A-Z.
The blu-rays are only in region 2 and region 4 in Amazon.co.uk They haven't released any of them in the US.
***** Yup. I've been torrenting the old seasons. Up to "D" now and catching up. Been watching this and "8 out of 10 cats"
At what point does the sun go from non-mirage sun, in other words the actual image of the sun, to a mirage of the sun? And how does this notion account for the time lag between the two images? The sun must appear to stand still or move very slowly for an extended period at the horizon.
I imagine it's gradual. They probably line up at noon.
I was just thinking at this, and to measure the ”speed of the sun” at different angles. I mean just film the sun at noon, (with filters obviously, ) and see the amount of time to move a diameter. And repeat again and again. And obviously the process of bending will start gradually, but very close to the horizon. with few diameters above, for sure the bend will be minimal. And this is why this trick question does not work, if the sun is setting behind a hill or mountain.
LOVE Phil! One of my favorites.
My favorite episode EVER!!!!!
Does that mean after that point you don't get sunburn?
roni ancona will you marry me?
I liked your comment but now I have to challenge you to a duel for her hand.
+Dan210871 I'll duel the winner.
She's not there. You're asking a mirage to marry you.
I LOVE Phil's impression of Stephen!
I'm just stoked that New Zealand got a mention on QI!!
*The things we learn from the QI...*
Setting sun - a mirage?
:-) Enjoy your #Sunday !
#QI #Learning #Fun
I love that show!!
Actually a refraction.
This all depends on the definition of the horizon.
If horizon is defined as the limit of our sight across the land (which it is;
"The apparent intersection of the earth and sky as seen by an observer.") then the sun is in fact there when we can see it, although our line of sight is not technically straight.
Wrong again QI.
Wrong. The horizon line is defined as the intersection of land and sky AS VIEWED BY AN OBSERVER. this means that the effect of the refraction of the sunlight incident on the atmosphere IS taken into account.
I agree that it has already set, but the question was to signal when the sun passes below the horizon, which is why you are still wrong.
No, yours is correct in a "tree falling in the woods sense", mine is scientifically accurate. It's physics.
When i say it's "there", I mean that it's above the horizon, not that it's in a straight line in the direction that we are looking.
***** I think he is saying that if you draw a line on the ground where the horizon is, you will find that this line is blocked from us by the curvature of the earth just like the sun is, the light which travels from the horizon to us allowing us to see where the horizon is bends the same way as the sunlight and for the same reason, so even though the sun is below the curvature of the earth it is physically above the line on the ground that marks where we see the horizon. now I don't know if this is actually the case since the sunlight is passing through the atmosphere from the top as it gradually gets thicker whereas the light from the ground is passing through only ground level atmosphere to get to us, and refraction happens as a result of changing mediums, but it sounds to me like that's what he is saying.
I enjoyed it more than the thirty-second shampoo advert I had to suffer for the privilege of seeing it.
Watching this over and over in work. Pretty sure people think I'm choking trying not to laugh
Stephen explains it very badly, I'm not surprised they don't get it. They really should have used a diagram.
I understood him perfectly well. I think everyone did except Jupitus, and really I think he understood but just saw an opportunity to make a joke about how the show makes him second-guess everything.
The words "hilarious" and "Phil Jupitus" should never appear in the same piece of text, ever!
I've watched this gameshow a number of times and have not yet once seen someone win a prize.
I love Phil's impressions of Stephen xD
I love Phil in this but truth be told the number of times I've watched it is simply down to Ronnie being in the thumbnail - as it is for the 'Would I Lie To You' episode and anything else she's in! Don't know what it is about that face but it draws me in every time!
''Yeah, but I grew up in Scotland and they are there'' :)
that's the funniest part of that video
3:00 Similar here in Canada in the winter when roads have a salty water mix and it dries just a bit it sunlight bouncing off it gives off an incredible glare when the sunlight hits it just right angle as it is setting. It's on roads facing east or west and the sun is at just the right angle it can be so blinding it's impossible to see you just have to pull over and stop.
My Lord!!! Actual footage of Phil Jupitus saying something quite funny.. Amazing!
This whole scene is the gold of QI
Weckar - your comment is brilliant (pun intended)!
The sun takes about 4 minutes to set. If refraction alone accounts for a full disc-width of the sun's transit, then another 8 minutes means it would be another 2 disc-widths further below the horizon, for a total of 3 disc-widths.
Amazing conclusion! I will shall this "Jaxter's Illusion" (having assumed that no one else has ever figured this out)!
One of my favourite QI moments, this.
Phil's impression of Stephen saying 'noo' is spot on with the 'cover story was just a cover story' scene from Blackadder goes Forth.
"Nooooo. Not theeeere. Miraaaaage." has become a thing in my circle of friends. You have to do your best Stephen, as done by Phil, but. Man, you wouldn't believe how many opportunities in daily life you have to play that card.
No. Not there. Miraaaaage.
Phil's delivery is brilliant
I love the quiet manner in which Phill Jupitus is protesting wildly.
Brilliant Show..Very different...Stephen Fry has the ability in making every piece of peculiar Trivea fascinating&funny at the same time..miss watching this..(been living in the U.S for 17yrs)..I kinda 4get how good these shows are or Brit T.V in general..Still i'v always. got the Kardashians and President Bill O'Reilly 2keep me informed..Who needs QI..
I love Phil's impressions of Stephen...
@kitojmanny [Helpfully] In case you are asking seriously: it is in the shape of a helix (for it to be a spiral, every successive turn would have to be larger than the previous one).
Phil's face when the bells went on hahaha "...ahh for fuck's sake!"
Yes, the light that hits us was originally emitted by the sun 8 minutes previously, but that doesn't have any effect on the angle it comes in at when it reaches us. And since that angle is what we go by when we say that the sun is 'there' in the sky, it's only cases of heavy refraction/ lensing that alters the *angle* of the light's path such as shown in the video where we lose track of the *direction* of where the sun is.
It's not the speed of the rays of light, but the refraction of the light caused by gravity.
It's similar to when you stick a pole into a pool - the light creates the image that the pole 'bends' and while the end of the pole looks like it is in one place, it is in fact in another.
In short, there is a discrepancy between where the sun appears to be and where it really is due to the image we see being refracted. It's NOT an image that has taken so long to reach us that it is 'out of date'.
I bloody LOVE Phil Jupitus.
Definitely my favourite QI clip.
"It's NOT there",hahahahaha,Jupitus is bloody funny.
Best moment of Phil Jupitus ever
The way he says 'accidents' in particular sounds, to my Australian ears, quite New Zealand-ish.
Brilliant!
@Phipper2011 LOL. As a driver in New Zealand I constantly remind myself of this when I get sunstrike!
phil uses his voice SO well, the jokes wouldn't work with even, everyday voice. XD
Yeah, he's been on a few times since. He was in last year's Xmas special.
We love both NZ and Australia. From the UK.
golden cut
When ever my mum and I now see a sunset we quote Phil Jupitus
Yes, it's not a very fortunate choice of words. They do both increase, but the "i.e." suggests that density and pressure are the same thing.
0:28 i just love that look on his face XD
Absolutely, which is why hestheman929 called it "helical in shape". I was just opening it up more to be based on what you define as a staircase.
Yes, you are correct. Light leaving the sun takes roughly eight minutes to reach the earth. This also means that if the sun was suddenly -not there- (lol), we wouldn't even know until about eight minutes after it happened... err... stopped happening.
In New Zealand and watching this while the sun is rising. It's also probably not there.
I'd forgotten Robert Webb had done a QI! Must go find the whole ep NOW.
I hope Ronni Ancona participates more. She's delightful. And Phil Jupitus is a laugh riot.
well played well played
I clicked here just because of Ronnie. Now I'm searching for more videos of her, seeya!
As a New Zealander, this reassures me immensely.
However, as I have recently discovered, my reassurance might not actually be there....
This programme seems excellent. Wish there was something even remotely similar on portuguese tv.
Phil's impression of Stephen ("miraaAAaagge") made me laugh so hard I had to spit the tea I was drinking back into the cup ;D
Webb said 'spiral' and got the forfeit; a spiral's radius varies from one point to the next. The stairs are helical because they have a constant radius as measured from their central axis.
thx for the info :) I can't believe I'd say that one time, but I overestimated the speed of light
Thanks for the information, it sounds interesting. I live in Sydney Australia, so I don't get crystal clear air either, but I imagine, but don't know, our air is cleaner than Europe's. I must go on a treasure hunt for some "Bad Astronomy"
cheers
I love the ubiquitous dour faces!
Stephen Fry looks like David Dickinson when he puts those glasses on. I half expect him to say cheap as chips or something similar.
this moment is genius! my tummy actually hurts from laughing (yes, folks, it can happen)
I like the way Alan drops into a Kiwi accent as soon as he starts talking about NZ.
This video is worth it for Ronnie Ancona!
I fucking love the way Phil says 'miraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaage'
I love Phil.
3:00 Phil reminds me of a Furby who's batteries have run out.