I went through a heresy trial in the Mormon church in 1975 ish. I have deconstructed and have been reconstructing my Christianity for 50 + years and when I think I'm nearly done I discover I have not considered a piece of the love and grace offered up by our loving and graceful God. Thanks to Yall's gracious and loving opinions and insights. I have newelly discovered David and have watched Tom now for a while.
As a kid, I talked to my preacher father about this and he said that just because God knows something doesn't mean humans didn't choose it. I don't like that answer.
What a fantastic interview! Tom is one of my favorite people. His work consistently challenges my thinking and has made me not only a better theologian, but a better person as well.
Thank you for articulating the process that I wrestled with most of my baptist missionary kid life. Eventually when I got to transition gender at 38 it was at a point where I decided that my reality was real and my faith was real but my church doctrine wasn’t. Eventually I discovered open and affirming theology and it finally unified my spiritual identity. Calvinism was disappointing and felt very incomplete and inconsistent with the ideas of prayer and uncertainty.
Thanks for this video, David and Tom. I appreciated both of you. And thanks for recommending this one, David. I also appreciate the talk about Classical Theism. I think Classical Theism is also largely influenced by Greek philosophical ideas and by Aristotelian philosophy in particular. Most people seem to think that God is perfect, and that's why God does not change. If God were to change, they would no longer be perfect. Perfection is not a state. But at this point in my theology, I dont need God to be perfect. In fact, God does occasionally state in the scripture that they didn’t know how something would play out and that they might have made different choices, if they had known differently. Like Saul being made king, etc. Thanks so much, gentlemen.
This channel is pure gold. Keep it up. I especially appreciate that you speak clearly and not too quickly. Remember that you're also being listened to on the other side of the world. Greetings!
52:00 you are so right it is a massive supernatural world view plausibility issue. We have educational resources never available before. It's not about the comfort of the pews.
While I probably wouldn’t agree with everything this person stands for, I tend to agree with his view of what God knows about your future. There is a man named Karl Falken (he has a book or two I think) who had a near death experience and God showed him exactly what this guy is saying - that God, who is infinite, sees every situation with all the possible outcomes at one time and also knows which you will likely choose but you have free will to choose. The idea that God knows everything to the letter that you will do I think is a Calvinist idea, because they (which I’m not) believe God ordains every single thing that happens.
and with all due respect Anthony, and thank you for commenting, but I and so many don't see it that way... I'm not sure you've been exposed to enough well thought-out theology, because you simply concluding such a view, reveals a very limited view of God and such a view keeps the God-human love relationship in a very limited biblicistic box. If any view is limiting God, it's this, "A God that does not know the future is a limited God." Consider reading more about Open Theism.
Moreover, a God that doesn't know the future is a liar, because there is an abundance of scriptural passages in which he foretells the future. If he inspired men and angels to prophesy with certainty events that were only possibilities, then he was being willfully deceptive.
The silly thing is that they would even hold a trial. Oord is publicly proud of his multiple heresies. A truly God-fearing group would have shown him the door long ago, without bothering with unnecessary formalities.
If God does not know the future, prophesy is impossible. That means the prophets were not prophets. It also means the Bible is not true. I don't agree.
1:00:30 Christian spirituality is a spirituality of love. But does this mean the Church ignores Scripture in order to uncritically accept whatever culture might be promoting at the moment? This is the problem I see with your "New Reformation": Love, whatever that means these days, personal experience and relational theology are increasingly valued to the exclusion of truth. And that, if I'm at all correct, will spell disaster for many Christians. Indeed, it already is.
well... I'm not a biblicist James, but it sounds like you are. Viewing the Bible biblicistically is such a low view of scripture, it's insulting to our Christian tradition and the Christian concept of 'the love of God,' and frankly: IT'S KILLING PEOPLE. Are you good with that? Are you good with that kind of Christianity? I for one am NOT.
I went through a heresy trial in the Mormon church in 1975 ish. I have deconstructed and have been reconstructing my Christianity for 50 + years and when I think I'm nearly done I discover I have not considered a piece of the love and grace offered up by our loving and graceful God. Thanks to Yall's gracious and loving opinions and insights. I have newelly discovered David and have watched Tom now for a while.
what a story Terry. thanks for letting me know. thanks for tuning in.
As a kid, I talked to my preacher father about this and he said that just because God knows something doesn't mean humans didn't choose it. I don't like that answer.
What a fantastic interview! Tom is one of my favorite people. His work consistently challenges my thinking and has made me not only a better theologian, but a better person as well.
thanks so much for this encouraging comment and thanks for watching.
“ Believers not certainters” love it!
Thank you for articulating the process that I wrestled with most of my baptist missionary kid life. Eventually when I got to transition gender at 38 it was at a point where I decided that my reality was real and my faith was real but my church doctrine wasn’t. Eventually I discovered open and affirming theology and it finally unified my spiritual identity. Calvinism was disappointing and felt very incomplete and inconsistent with the ideas of prayer and uncertainty.
so great to hear this Sarah Beth - and thanks for watching.
Thanks for this video, David and Tom. I appreciated both of you. And thanks for recommending this one, David. I also appreciate the talk about Classical Theism. I think Classical Theism is also largely influenced by Greek philosophical ideas and by Aristotelian philosophy in particular. Most people seem to think that God is perfect, and that's why God does not change. If God were to change, they would no longer be perfect. Perfection is not a state. But at this point in my theology, I dont need God to be perfect. In fact, God does occasionally state in the scripture that they didn’t know how something would play out and that they might have made different choices, if they had known differently. Like Saul being made king, etc. Thanks so much, gentlemen.
thanks drew. the comment is meaningful.
Tom changed my theology more than anyone since Tolstoy!
The topic on God participating in the parade; reminds me of concepts from NDE reports and seeing God more like Source.
This channel is pure gold. Keep it up. I especially appreciate that you speak clearly and not too quickly. Remember that you're also being listened to on the other side of the world. Greetings!
thanks so much tan. I really appreciate the encouragement. all my best in your part of the world.
I think we need a proper biblical commentary by Thomas Jay Oord, in the form of a book
52:00 you are so right it is a massive supernatural world view plausibility issue. We have educational resources never available before.
It's not about the comfort of the pews.
God has good plans for those who love Him.
While I probably wouldn’t agree with everything this person stands for, I tend to agree with his view of what God knows about your future. There is a man named Karl Falken (he has a book or two I think) who had a near death experience and God showed him exactly what this guy is saying - that God, who is infinite, sees every situation with all the possible outcomes at one time and also knows which you will likely choose but you have free will to choose. The idea that God knows everything to the letter that you will do I think is a Calvinist idea, because they (which I’m not) believe God ordains every single thing that happens.
John Polkinghorne theological physicist RIP agreed with Oord
I think the church has seen itself and ran away from what it saw. It's hiding in shame.
A God that does not know the future is a limited god, not the true God.
and with all due respect Anthony, and thank you for commenting, but I and so many don't see it that way... I'm not sure you've been exposed to enough well thought-out theology, because you simply concluding such a view, reveals a very limited view of God and such a view keeps the God-human love relationship in a very limited biblicistic box. If any view is limiting God, it's this, "A God that does not know the future is a limited God." Consider reading more about Open Theism.
Moreover, a God that doesn't know the future is a liar, because there is an abundance of scriptural passages in which he foretells the future. If he inspired men and angels to prophesy with certainty events that were only possibilities, then he was being willfully deceptive.
The silly thing is that they would even hold a trial. Oord is publicly proud of his multiple heresies. A truly God-fearing group would have shown him the door long ago, without bothering with unnecessary formalities.
I love time convos. Sign me up.
If God does not know the future, prophesy is impossible. That means the prophets were not prophets. It also means the Bible is not true. I don't agree.
Tom Oord is today's Martin Luther.
So in addition to the rest of his nonsense, he apews vulgar antisemitic comments, too?
If God knows your future he is bound by time and not free to change it.He sees you dead buried and talking to resurrected people in afterlife.
1:00:30 Christian spirituality is a spirituality of love.
But does this mean the Church ignores Scripture in order to uncritically accept whatever culture might be promoting at the moment?
This is the problem I see with your "New Reformation":
Love, whatever that means these days, personal experience and relational theology are increasingly valued to the exclusion of truth.
And that, if I'm at all correct, will spell disaster for many Christians. Indeed, it already is.
well... I'm not a biblicist James, but it sounds like you are. Viewing the Bible biblicistically is such a low view of scripture, it's insulting to our Christian tradition and the Christian concept of 'the love of God,' and frankly: IT'S KILLING PEOPLE. Are you good with that? Are you good with that kind of Christianity? I for one am NOT.
Well said. You are plainly far wiser than the self-appointed, narcissistic academics featured in this video.