The Water of Death | Paul's Spice Destruction Explained | Dune Lore
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- An examination of Paul’s threat to destroy the spice, explaining how it works and discussing the changes that have been made to this element of the story in the most recent big screen adaptation (Villeneuve's Dune Part 2).
Nerd Cookies PATREON: / nerdcookies
Nerd Cookies DISCORD: / discord
Twitter: / nerd_cookies
Follow me on TWITCH: / nerdcookiearcade
Intro Track Name: "Watching The Clouds" Music By: LAKEY INSPIRED @ / lakeyinspired
Official "LAKEY INSPIRED" RUclips Channel HERE - / @lakeyinspired
License for commercial use: Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported "Share Alike" (CC BY-SA 3.0) License.
All the videos, songs, images, and graphics used in the video belong to their respective owners and I or this channel does not claim any right over them.
Special credits and links for original artwork can be added to the description of this video by emailing a request to nerdcookiesreviews@gmail.com.
Fair Use
Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research.
All content falls under fair use: any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and “transformative” purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.
Use of any copyrighted material in this video qualifies as fair use.
Thank you for watching this video! If you enjoy my content, please consider supporting me on PATREON: www.patreon.com/nerdcookies
i understand why they went that route but for me the problem it creates is that by using atomics it brings up the question why other great houses with atomics wouldnt have thought of this and tried it. with so few other than the fremen understanding the life cycle of the worms and its relationship to spice and worms being so hard to destroy anyway, the original idea worked very well in the book. they had a kill switch no one else had.
Because it was insane. It's like why wouldn't nations worldwide threaten to destroy all oil reserves? Because that would be bad for everyone. Everyone on the Emperor's side says the same thing to Paul. The film explains everything if you pay close attention.
@@d-_-b8558 if paul destroyed spice production with either method once theres no spice all addicts die, including him and the fremen. insane, bad for everyone, yet the guild even with their limited prescience confirm hes not only capable of doing it but willing. to me it mirrors mutually assured destruction here in our world, and although it can be argued that m.a.d. has kept nuclear war from happening all this time, that fact doesnt reallyyyy make me any more optimistic for humanity dodging the nuclear bullet in the long run. history is full of people willing to break the game if they are losing. and in the lore itself even though the great convention bans the use of atomics on humans selusa secondus became so harsh because house tantor used atomics on it, knowing theyd most likely be destroyed for it, which they were. insane, bad for everyone, did it anyway. i just prefer the water of death mechanism for holding spice production hostage in my own lil head canon because so few knew about it, whereas many have atomics. then i dont wonder why no ones ever tried it before over dunes extremely long timeline is all. doesnt affect my enjoyment of the movie, which i like alot, just makes me go hrm.
@@dustinpierce1229 Possibly because Paul was in a position to realistically make the threat: His Fremen Legions had already crushed the Imperial forces militarily, he had the Emperor and Imperial Court as hostages and his family's atomics were already positioned on Arrakis.
@@d-_-b8558 even in the book they call him mad, and he's like well I might just do it out of spite
Same reason we haven't destroyed the world in nuclear fire yet in real life. Anyone with the power to do it is also someone who wants to continue to live in the world. You'd have to be a level of unhinged that we -quite literally- have never seen before to actually *enact* the apocalypse.
No other great house ever did it because nobody else was ever that crazy.
Only Paul was ever that crazy....or rather, presented himself that way, as part of the threat.
Also, they probably couldn't get them there.
House Atreides had their nukes on Arrakis because they ruled it. The Harkonnens probably took them when they left. Anyone else would have to get approval from the spacing guild to carry them on a Heighliner *and* the Harkonnens or the Atreides to actually have (or have *had*) their nukes even *get* to Arrakis. That seems highly unlikely.
Paul was heard to say, "The spice must blow".
I could listen to you narrate anything. Thanks Elaine, and to your team.
I still want to see what happens when a Lasgun and shield meet in live action or hopefully in Dune Awakening.
That very scenario was used by Duncan Idaho to lure the Harkonnen away from Paul and Jessica in the first book. Jessica was surprised and a little upset because she thought Duncan used one of the atomics.
Dune Awakening will not have a lasgun/shield interaction. They’ve removed that due to the fact that players could use it when losing a game and simply blow stuff up on their way out.
@@GamerplayerWT Damn... Looks like no Banzai charges for me then.
@michaelday6359 That's one of my favorite scenes, especially when I picture in my minds eye. I see Mamoa with a cocky smile when the explosion happens. So good!
I liked the very first shield/lasgun interaction with Tio Holtzmann. (prequel series books)
I will like to see a video on how the chrysknife is made from the sandworm teeth
It is quite simple, use a lot of grinding or chipping like you would use with stone stools.
As good as the recent Dune movies were as works of cinematic art, the changes made around things like the Water of Death and the significance of the Spacing Guild can't help but annoy me. The downplaying of the significance of the Guild to the Imperial balance of power changes critical relationships and power dynamics between multiple other groups, and if atomics can so easily destroy the Spice cycle, why wouldn't any noble House that has control of Arrakis, and that has House atomics available, simply use those atomics to hold Spice production to ransom in order to claim the most valuable resource in the galaxy as their own monopoly in perpetuity? We know Imperial ecologists exist, so sooner or later someone would learn enough about the ecology of Arrakis to be able to use atomics in such a fashion.
Part of the genius of Herbert's writing was the fact that the ecology of Arrakis and the Sandworm life cycle ensured that surface or near surface atomic detonations would not be enough to destroy Spice production - to do that, someone would need the sort of intimate knowledge of the cycles that underpin Spice production possessed by the Fremen, and would need to know how that relates to the biome of Arrakis to know how to use the Water of Death to create a chain rection in a pre-Spice mass to disrupt the life cycle of the great worms. It wasn't something just any Great House could do; it was an opportunity opened up to Paul by his time among the Fremen that he ruthlessly seized upon, knowing that, even if the Padasha Emperor or the other Great Houses chose to risk calling his bluff and sought to move against him, the Spacing Guild would never allow it. In the books, Paul masterfully exploited the political structure of the Imperium to seal his grip on power, but much of that world building is sadly lost in the current movie adaptation.
I didn't even see the movie. the second I heard Liet was a woman I was like ... I'm out, Villeneuve can keep his movie.
That was something I wish they included in Part 2. The literally skimmed over how much power Paul had when he made his way to the throne. It would emphasize just what was at stake towards the end.
If I recall correctly, the threat in the DV movie, was just to blow up the reserves, stockpiles, warehouses... which, while bad for people, wasn't the civilization destroying event that destroying the sandworms would have been. The seriousness of destroying the worms was the only reason Paul had leverage over the Guild Navigators, and thus, over the emperor, at all. The threat of atomics was NOTHING in this scenario... by comparison.
It may have served the purpose of the movie beat, but it doesn't fit the logic of what was going on there.
When are you doing an audiobook version of Dune?
Good idea
I think the change from the water of death to nukes was a good change. The nukes need a lot less exposition to explain how they could stop spice production. I admire the efficiency of the change.
If Paul followed through with his threat to use of the 'Water of Death' to ultimately end Spice production on Dune, would that have ultimately cost him is powerbase with the Fremen? Paul would be the one responsible for killing off Shai-Hulud...
It was an all or nothing scenario. Destroying Spice production forever would mean the complete collapse of the Imperium and condemn untold numbers to death. Even if recovery was possible, it would probably take ages to rebuild. Whether or not the Fremen worshiped him anymore wouldn't really matter, and he was counting on the Emperor to cave based on the pressure of the Guild and the reality of the situation.
@@vaeringjar1387 True, the scenario would have probably been avoided as Paul knew the Guild would capitulate, and perhaps having foreseen that they would, probably made using this all or nothing threat more palatable. On the other hand it does show either Paul's extreme confidence or total fanatasim.
@@chrisb3585 My first thoughts were, 1. All Fremen are addicted to spice. And 2. Spice withdrawal is always fatal. Do I misunderstand anything?
Yeah, it’s a pretty dense concept, particularly given that the Water of Life kills people, calling something the Water of Death gets thick…
They explained the water of death in Dune 2000.
And yes, I understand it was a 6 hour mini series, but it was basically just put there as like a throwaway line and then explained at the end briefly.
It worked well enough.
Though I enjoyed the latest version of Dune, there are so many changes from the books I cannot see how they are going to be able to tie it up so the stories end even comes close to Herberts vision.
One thing that really bothers me is the relationship at the end between Paul and Chani. At this point at the end of part 2 they should have already have one child together. That is totally missing and for me it showed how strong their bond was. With that missing, where do the twins come in? By the way part 2 ends, there isn't even a hint of the twins.
Again, I like this version for what it is just not as close to the books as I would have preferred.
Your videos give an appreciation for Dune that’s on a whole different level. More!!! 🙏
Thank you!
Going off lore is leading to hard choices for future movies. I’m looking forward to see how this is all squared in the end.
basically mesias needs two films, the one explaining all and the other half of mesias LOL
plus the Lady Fenring and CHani plots
Knowledge that the sand trout had an inherent relationship to locking the water deep beneath the surface. When the first planetary engineers tried to modify the biosphere they noticed that as soon as a well was drilled it would flow with copious water until it plugged up with the bodies of sandtrout that were blocking the end of the pipe.
So even without knowing the true relationship between sand trout and sandworms you could tell that there was a symbiotic relationship. The sandworms could not exist where there was free water on the surface (even in much later books the Bene Gesserit tried to move sandworms to another world, you can bet that over the last ten thousand years it had been attempted by nearly every major house and guild and each time it ended in failure).
It took something completely calamitous to burn Arakkis down to the bare rock and to kill all of the sand trout and sandworms (you would need to read up to the much later series of books).
+++
If you go non-coda and in to the Brian Herbert prequels you find that someone did use atomics on Arakkis (south pole, house Vernius) and it didn't affect much of anything.
+++
Fremen children would play with sand trout and catch them. They would bite the tip of a sand trout and drink the sweet bodily fluids of the sand trout as a treat.
+++
The spice-orgy when performed by a reverend mother of Arakkis converted the water of life in to a hallucinogenic and aphrodisiac and the entire seich would 'party like it's 10,191'
Great Nerd vid, I agree more detail on the deeper themes of the lore is needed in the movie, A deep dive in to the Butlerian Jihad would be fun. So many topics to touch on in that book
Using nukes doesn't even necessarily go against the true lore. There's information asymmetry at play. The houses don't know that nuking the spice fields won't end spice production, but Paul does.
This is probably one of the reasons DV didn't include the Guild in the film. In the book they do know because they can look into the possible futures and see he can and would do it. Paul is way more dangerous in the book, and the Water of Death scenario demonstrates that because there's no room for bluffing.
Way cooler than “muh nuclear bombs.”
I've been waiting for someone to explain this plot point from the books for years! Well done Nerd Cookies
I know they want to do Vagabond next but if the studio behind Arcane adapted the rest of the books as a series I think that would be amazing!
He probably could’ve explained it in the same amount of time it took to shoot all those hikes through the slot canyons, probably in a scene like the mini series where Cheney explains the spice cycle to Paul.
The more I think about how the director shot this film as “propaganda” the more annoyed I get.
Herbert was paralleling between natural and artificial, case in point The comparison between the sandworms, and the highliners in both form and function. In this case, the “water of death” over a pre spice mass is natures far more effective atomic equivalent.
Thank God. It isn’t just me😂
Thanks Elaine
Personally I would love to see a TV series long enough that there would be no need to omit anything. I was kind of ok with omitting some of Paul's upbringing (mentat training for example) because without it the movie would have been at least 4 hours long but in the second part it annoyed the hell out of me how some elements were omitted or outright overwritten and I find it distasteful. For example I don't like the instant 180 degrees turn for Paul's character after spice agony. I hate the outright shortening of time span and removing Paul and Chani's son's death as a catalyst that would push him towards jyhad.
Its is hard for me to judge what should have been in part 2 due to the fact everyone watching the films aren't versed in the Dune lore or have read the book. I know he had to remove thing for story flow but I miss the thing he left out and I know I'm not the only one. Frank Herbert's Dune the sci fi channel mini series was enjoyable and for only a total of 4.5 hours and had to me some of the important things like the environmental impact of the water of death. Villeneuve's version had different things yes but to me it wasn't as important.
Yeah, I timed both out and it was amazing how much the Scifi channel included, in just about the same amount of time. The problem with that adaptation was the pacing, mostly, and the lower budget. DV wasted an opportunity, and sadly it changed a lot of the themes present in the work.
I just had to extend my 'suspension of disbelief' on any of the Dune movies and enjoy them for what they are. It was the same thing with LoTR or other great established works of literature that end up on the screen.
I was more upset about Chani being the mirror opposite of the character she was in the book. I was also disappointed by no Guild but I am hopeful. He's saving it for the next installment. I can live with the Water of Death omission.
It was stupid to take this out of the latest movie.
I can live with it. I understand the deep lore, but the average normie would not. Either way it gives the message that Paul has the guild in a stranglehold. The fact he could destroy the spice is the bottom line that gives his ultimate control over everything. It doesn't really matter how, only that he is willing to do it.
The guild with their prescience could see some of the many paths and were in terror when they realized that Paul could too. He was not theirs to control, hence why they wanted him dead.
Although I understand the need to edit the story down and did in fact enjoy the films, I agree with you a longer form adaptation true to the novel would be even better.
Thanks for the donation!
Just like changing out the giant squid for Doctor Manhattan.
As much as I did enjoy the film I would rather lean towards a high quality TV production to capture the complexity of the Dune Universe & restore the roles of missing & reduced characters such as Hawat & Pieter
I still think the movie could have done a better job explaining the threat to spice production the nuclear weapon thing was silly.
The scifi channel did it and it literally took two minutes of screen time. But DV needed more moody slow-motion shots and scenes of Millennial Fremen snickering about religion.
@@vaeringjar1387 The snickering about religion thing shows they missed the point about Dune as the book showed they had a world united it belief. Their devotion was a key factor in making the fighting force so effective.
still not as bad as drinking a bottle of Absinthe neat lol :)
Interesting question: How long would it take for Paul's (in the book) chain reaction take? Could it be stopped?
I would think that once it breaks through the sand trout barrier that blocks off subsurface water the poison would practically be exponential. As water is freed of the sand trout layer it suddenly begins to move upwards, but it is poisoned water and the decaying bodies of more sand trout make more poison and so on and so on. Like a nuclear reaction but probably taking months to years. It would be unstoppable.
Not including this was one of the greater faults with Villeneuve's adaptation. Understanding why Villeneuve made the changes he did is not agreement.
The only way to really do the book right is to do a game of thrones type of series that could go several seasons, the kind of thing they are going to try with Harry potter
This movie has happened before and will happen again.
Great video. Yes, a series would have been better.
My problem wth dune and the movies and which i know any tv series wont but should cover is the spice its self,,it says it highly addictive yet pual get hit wth it,,but then shurgs it off like it was nothing ,never once did we see tge nobles taking a hit every so offten or once even,,the book says fremon usit in there food is that why there great fifgters mther shlould whole citys sufferung from spice wthdrawl,,i
I think the poisonous/ withdrawal aspects of stopping melange might be longer term and more insidious. You are right, it is never really mentioned in any of the books of what that looks like/ effects.
You would think that when the Fremen go on Jihad across the known universe they would all be going through withdrawal as they have been essentially breathing, eating, drinking spice all of their lives. To put a few million addicts across the known galaxy would probably be a greater impact than what The Guild consumes for its navigators.
Didn't like the movie's "adaptation" of this detail. "Complexity" is a lame excuse. It wouldn't have taken much exposition. It wouldn't have been necessary to give a complete explanation of sandworm lifecycle and the ecology of water sequestering.
All that would have been required was to explain 2 points:
(1) Simply assert that mixing the water of life with a pre-spice mass would start a chain reaction that would result in destroying the spice. All the intricate details explaining how & why could've been glossed over and the story would've been just fine.
(2) That the guild navigators instantly understood the implications and confirmed Paul really did have the power and the threat was real.
🖖🏽
Another stupid, non-sensical change in the effort of the movie to dumb down the incredible lore of Dune. Run time issues are not really the road block, if they did not waste time with Chani and her annoying friend or dumb jokes.
Atomics are at least a better solution than the really silly one in the Lynch adaptation where it suddenly began to rain at the end, because HE IS the kwisatz haderach. I understand the use of a more expalinable solution and maybe tell the real world once more that Nukes are bleeping dangerous
the most beautiful cinematography for Dune so far but still the movie script maneges to f...up😑 what king of Dune's fan Villeneuve claims to be??
There's not much point making such a complex and expensive movie to cater to just the kinds of super-fans that would fully understand it, there's no chance it could ever make a profit, such an audience is simply too small.
A movie *has* to cater to a wider audience so that it can actually make a profit and therefore justify its own existence, or the existence of necessary sequels.
A TV show makes more sense narratively, sure, but those make even less money.
To truly get an adaptation that captured absolutely everything properly, you'd need a bottomless source of money that never expected a return...just a solid *expenditure* of money.
Which is an idiotic prospect. So it'll never happen.
Which means we need to accept that corners have to be cut, it's just the nature of media as an experience.
Let's be glad it's as good as it is. And that people keep trying.
If it wasn't well loved, we wouldn't have 3 different versions to compare to each other. (old movie, sy-fy miniseries, new movies)
Denis the Villain's adapatation is TERRIBLE , not only does it horribly misrepresent the Fremen culture and history but it also destroys the rest of the Dune Saga. The sandtrout play an imporatnt role in the overall Dune Saga and you cant just overlook it. This change is soo incredibly STUPID thats it is impossible to believe that Denis read Dune. Denis is either an IDIOT or he hasnt really read the Dune books , at best he just paged through the first book. I have pointd out many many times that the TIME DENIS SPENT ON THE NUCLEAR MISSILE WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH TO MENTION THE SANDTROUT AND THE LIFE CYCLE. Denis is just another radicalized lefty trying to insert current day politics into his movies.Again the Syfy mini seies managed to expalin the sandtrout's importance and they did it in a few minutes, in fact in less time that Denis spent on the nuclear missiles.Also not only would missiles defeat the Fremens ultimate goals but they wouldnt even work because the Fremen have NO defence to the missile being shot down asap , as soon as they are launched, the entite idea is completely IDIOTIC !!
AMENNN😂 finally. Everyone keep talking about the movie being a masterpiece. Masterpiece, where???
@@nenyeo6090The good visuals only made me feel sadder for what might have been if he hadn't mangled the story and the characters so much.
This was one of several disappointments of this film. While I enjoyed the movie in total, some very important issues were brushed aside, this being one of them.
Villeneuve sucks. He's been a disaster. Lynch should have been paid to come back
He really does suck
I had mentioned this a few weeks(?) ago, in a commentary to another of your retrospective videos on Dune Pt-2 ...I am most thoroughly happy you decided to give this particular plot-point the full attention it deserves!
...And as per usual Elaine, you do so with impeccable accuracy and sophistication!🫶🏽💙🤍💙🌿🕊
Edit:: PS:.. I _LOATHE_ this particular change/departure from the book... Almost more than the numerous others tha have been perpetrated.