I’m now a lucky owner of this recording. And how wonderful it is. A really important project, which helps explain what a special conductor Mahler was, and how his tinkering with these mighty scores only makes them even bolder and more appropriate for a modern day orchestra. Congratulations to all for this deeply special recording.
I agree. Just with his Schumann Editions it really gives an insight into why people said he was the greatest conductor they ever knew. He does very little at times but the effects are gigantic. For example the climaxes in the first two movements of the Eroica he only adds some timpani notes and give the horns a little more to do. And an already thunderous moment turns into an emotional earthquake. What a way to show what a genius Beethoven was even after you have heard these moments so often in your life. The only thing I'm not so sure about is the omission of repeats. If that is in Mahler's revision then I guess it is part of performing it as is, but if it is not it is the usual ignorance of many conductors that I thought we had left behind in the 60's and 70's.
Of all composers, Beethoven has always seemed to be the one who was notably frustrated by the limitations of his period. Normally, I am a fan of period re-creations; but with Beethoven, I feel period orchestras and keyboards reveal how he wanted to push beyond the constraints he experienced. Yes, I feel Beethoven actually sounds better on modern piano because of the power coming through. Valid interpretations are possible under many circumstances, including these Mahler re-imaginings.
I have started to listen to these and I like them as alternatives, because there indeed moments when Mahler's alterations help to make Beethoven's writing clearer. But in other moments I think he overcorrects. A good example is the 7th Symphony first movement exposition when the theme comes full force the first time. Mahler moves Beethoven's exhilirating horn writing over to the trumpets. He does the same at the end of the movement. He lets the trumpets play along with the horns as they blast out the theme one final time. And that is one of those moments where you think: "No, don't do that!"
A few years ago, I had the pleasure of hearing Francis conduct the Beethoven/Mahler Eroica in Tampa with the Florida Orchestra; he is the orchestra’s current music director. Regrettably, the folks who run Tampa’s performing arts center forced the orchestra into a too-small hall, which defeated the purpose of Mahler’s reorchestrations. Still, it was interesting to hear what Mahler did. As I recall, most of Mahler’s changes were not very obvious. But it was great to have the opportunity to hear the Mahler recension in live performance.
@@christopherjohnson2422 I must been in Melbourne at the time. I had just bicycled up the east coast from Ft. Lauderdale around then just to avoid hurricane Dorian. Which grazed Melbourne just before I arrived. On a summer day in 2020 though I walked from Mims to Deltona, but I've never been to Tampa. Which is my roundabout way of asking why, when he was conducting in Miami, the legendary Mahlerian Michael Tilson Thomas, apparently didn't conduct this repertoire? I also think I remember a premiere recording of the complete Creatures of Prometheus ballet score from him in the 1980's. If I recall, Dohnanyi recorded the Mahler orchestration of the opus 95 Quartetto Serioso twice, with the Vienna and with the Philharmonia, but never with Cleveland? I would have walked 500 miles to have heard that!
'Touching' Beethoven isn't a problem. In some instances it's even obligatory like with the trumpet parts in the end of the 1st movement of the Eroica - which Beethoven only cut short because valved trumpets weren't a thing until 16 years after it was written and the melody could not be played in full on natural trumpets. The result in the original score is a diminishing in orchestral power due to woodwinds taking over the melody - which clearly was a compromise he made because he had to, rather than wanted to. Other instances of significant deviation from the original scores exist which are still faithful to Beethoven's original intentions, like the adding of metronome markings in some of the earlier Schnabel editions of the piano sonatas to indicate how a free-flowing tempo should be shifting over longer segments. Or the practice of octaving single note basslines in performances of the sonatas once 7.5-octave pianos became the norm. We know the approach that Beethoven's star student Czerny took to preparing older scores, like Bach's WTC, for performance, and the focus was not on historical accuracy but on making it sound as good as possible when performed on piano. Without any indications Beethoven himself was averse to such practices we should be safe to assume he'd not object to it because it was clearly common practice in his own time. This obsession with historically accurate practice is not helpful because a) it's not possible unless we have detailed original scores full of dynamic, tempo, and accent markings (and those in many scores from the Baroque and Classical era are relatively void of them - less of an issue with Beethoven) and b) the resulting recording might not sound as good as trying to fit it to modern orchestras, like we see in the recordings of 1950s and 1960s Bach cantatas and oratorios by Klemperer and Jochum vs. those of, let's say, Philippe Herreweghe or Frans Brüggen.
This is a fallacy debunked many times over. Just please ask any professional trumpet player and you will learn trumpets in LvBs tones COULD play the passage in Eroica that Beethoven omitted. Why he chose different sonic effect? Nobody knows and certainly you don’t.
It's not really so much re-orchestration as arrangement to fit much larger music venues. By the way, this was not new; others were habitually adapting Beethoven's work for the same reason even before Mahler did. Bülow, for instance, habitually added strings and woodwinds, and used other kinds of brass instruments. This was standard practice in late 19th century music performances, not only with Beethoven. And it could go much further: in the UK, it was not uncommon to add a pianist to symphony performances to add improvisations.
@@markokassenaar4387 One could use a piano as a basso continuo and play along with the score in a harmonic reduction in 4 voices of the score during tutti passages.
@@markokassenaar4387 Just put them in front of the orchestra like a concert pianist, and have them play along with the symphony, adding improvisations here and there. It was quite common.
Habe gestern auf der ARD-App die Planeten von Holst mit Francis als Conductor gesehen. Eine der besten liveperformances ever, mindestens zu diesem Stück. Mit demselben Orchester in einer Museumshalle aufgenommen. Fantastisch!
Mal ein großes Lob an den Pauker. Beethoven's Pauken sollten immer schön knackig klingen. Hier tun sie es ohne dabei hart zu sein. Find ich spitze und hat gerade in der Eroica für absolute WOW Momente gesorgt.
@@AndreyRubtsovRU Ah but of course, so long as you can recognize the tune the timbral color hardly matters. After all, it’s not like the singular selling point of this Beethoven cycle is the change in orchestration. Oh, wait…
I would love to hear Beethoven reorchestrated by Tchaikovsky - in my view, the most sensitive and versatile of all late-Romantic era orchestrators - but I doubt it would be as respectful to the original as Mahler was. The mystery with Mahler is how somebody so loyal and devoted to Beethoven could have written (in his original compositions) music which Beethoven would surely have despised.
Si fuera cierto que las orqustaciones de Beethoven tienen problemas por su sordera y necesitaran rectificación, entonces versiones historicistas extraordinarias como las de Harnoncourt en que no se pierde ningún grado de pasión,no existirían.
Beethoven struggled with orchestration because of his deafness?!? He he and thus us coming from a musician. Composers do not orchestrate listening to a full orchestra. Typically they work at the piano or just have the ability to “hear” music looking at the score.
Composing is one thing. Finer details of orchestration often get worked out in rehearsals and practice. I suppose that is what Francis meant that Mahler meant... :-)
A riprova di quanto le case discografiche siano allo sbando, comprese quelle cosiddette indipendenti e non solo le multinazionali, ecco trovato l'ennesimo, flebile pretesto, per riproporre ad nauseam la solita minestra, siamo veramente alla frutta! Si raschia il fondo del barile, ma veramente!
Sono d'accordo in linea di principio, ma ammetto che ho sempre desiderato ascoltare questi ritocchi da quando sapevo che Mahler li aveva fatti. E le sue edizioni delle sinfonie di Schumann sono un'alternativa perfettamente valida all'originale.
@@Quotenwagnerianer Come nel caso di Schumann, i ritocchi di Mahler si riducono ad un allargamento dell'organico orchestrale che veniva incontro al gusto dell'epoca e quindi ad un addensamento del suono e quindi ad una eccessiva romanticizzazione del linguaggio beethoveniano che è decisamente datata e che discograficamente la si poteva già rilevare anche nelle interpretazioni di un Furtwaengler o di un Klemperer, solo per fare i primi due nomi che mi vengono in mente, perciò nulla di autenticamente nuovo sotto il sole, siamo dalle parti di chi ha riorchestrato e rimaneggiato le sinfonie di Bruckner (tra questi anche lo stesso Mahler), i concerti per pianoforte di Chopin ed "Il lago dei cigni" di Ciaikovski, tanto per intenderci, per carità! Il tutto quindi mi sa assai di muffo e di stantio!
All this is useless if we don't respect Beethoven's rhythm. Here in the first movement of the 7 the rhythm is the Sicilian _.-_ _ .-_ Here this ever is there! ruclips.net/video/-0BWOXFo-u4/видео.html
You did well Zuck
😂 Didn't know he likes this kind of stuff!
He looks also like Larry Bird
I’m now a lucky owner of this recording. And how wonderful it is. A really important project, which helps explain what a special conductor Mahler was, and how his tinkering with these mighty scores only makes them even bolder and more appropriate for a modern day orchestra. Congratulations to all for this deeply special recording.
I agree. Just with his Schumann Editions it really gives an insight into why people said he was the greatest conductor they ever knew.
He does very little at times but the effects are gigantic.
For example the climaxes in the first two movements of the Eroica he only adds some timpani notes and give the horns a little more to do. And an already thunderous moment turns into an emotional earthquake.
What a way to show what a genius Beethoven was even after you have heard these moments so often in your life.
The only thing I'm not so sure about is the omission of repeats. If that is in Mahler's revision then I guess it is part of performing it as is, but if it is not it is the usual ignorance of many conductors that I thought we had left behind in the 60's and 70's.
Of all composers, Beethoven has always seemed to be the one who was notably frustrated by the limitations of his period. Normally, I am a fan of period re-creations; but with Beethoven, I feel period orchestras and keyboards reveal how he wanted to push beyond the constraints he experienced. Yes, I feel Beethoven actually sounds better on modern piano because of the power coming through. Valid interpretations are possible under many circumstances, including these Mahler re-imaginings.
I have started to listen to these and I like them as alternatives, because there indeed moments when Mahler's alterations help to make Beethoven's writing clearer.
But in other moments I think he overcorrects. A good example is the 7th Symphony first movement exposition when the theme comes full force the first time. Mahler moves Beethoven's exhilirating horn writing over to the trumpets. He does the same at the end of the movement. He lets the trumpets play along with the horns as they blast out the theme one final time.
And that is one of those moments where you think: "No, don't do that!"
A few years ago, I had the pleasure of hearing Francis conduct the Beethoven/Mahler Eroica in Tampa with the Florida Orchestra; he is the orchestra’s current music director. Regrettably, the folks who run Tampa’s performing arts center forced the orchestra into a too-small hall, which defeated the purpose of Mahler’s reorchestrations. Still, it was interesting to hear what Mahler did. As I recall, most of Mahler’s changes were not very obvious. But it was great to have the opportunity to hear the Mahler recension in live performance.
When's a few?
I had to Google up the exact date. October 11, 2019.
@@christopherjohnson2422 I must been in Melbourne at the time. I had just bicycled up the east coast from Ft. Lauderdale around then just to avoid hurricane Dorian. Which grazed Melbourne just before I arrived. On a summer day in 2020 though I walked from Mims to Deltona, but I've never been to Tampa.
Which is my roundabout way of asking why, when he was conducting in Miami, the legendary Mahlerian Michael Tilson Thomas, apparently didn't conduct this repertoire? I also think I remember a premiere recording of the complete Creatures of Prometheus ballet score from him in the 1980's.
If I recall, Dohnanyi recorded the Mahler orchestration of the opus 95 Quartetto Serioso twice, with the Vienna and with the Philharmonia, but never with Cleveland? I would have walked 500 miles to have heard that!
Great project, I have the CDs, well done.
Mahler "re-touched" Schumann's symphonies, too. I used to have a set on CDs, BIS iirc.
Amazing project, id love to see the results recorded
'Touching' Beethoven isn't a problem. In some instances it's even obligatory like with the trumpet parts in the end of the 1st movement of the Eroica - which Beethoven only cut short because valved trumpets weren't a thing until 16 years after it was written and the melody could not be played in full on natural trumpets. The result in the original score is a diminishing in orchestral power due to woodwinds taking over the melody - which clearly was a compromise he made because he had to, rather than wanted to.
Other instances of significant deviation from the original scores exist which are still faithful to Beethoven's original intentions, like the adding of metronome markings in some of the earlier Schnabel editions of the piano sonatas to indicate how a free-flowing tempo should be shifting over longer segments. Or the practice of octaving single note basslines in performances of the sonatas once 7.5-octave pianos became the norm.
We know the approach that Beethoven's star student Czerny took to preparing older scores, like Bach's WTC, for performance, and the focus was not on historical accuracy but on making it sound as good as possible when performed on piano. Without any indications Beethoven himself was averse to such practices we should be safe to assume he'd not object to it because it was clearly common practice in his own time.
This obsession with historically accurate practice is not helpful because a) it's not possible unless we have detailed original scores full of dynamic, tempo, and accent markings (and those in many scores from the Baroque and Classical era are relatively void of them - less of an issue with Beethoven) and b) the resulting recording might not sound as good as trying to fit it to modern orchestras, like we see in the recordings of 1950s and 1960s Bach cantatas and oratorios by Klemperer and Jochum vs. those of, let's say, Philippe Herreweghe or Frans Brüggen.
This is a fallacy debunked many times over. Just please ask any professional trumpet player and you will learn trumpets in LvBs tones COULD play the passage in Eroica that Beethoven omitted. Why he chose different sonic effect? Nobody knows and certainly you don’t.
@@pawelpap9 the technique those trumpet players needed had to be very very strong though. Maybe they weren't up for the task in Beethoven's mind.
Precise tempo and dynamic markings are not historically accurate. They're left out because it ruins the ability to interpret the piece.
It's not really so much re-orchestration as arrangement to fit much larger music venues. By the way, this was not new; others were habitually adapting Beethoven's work for the same reason even before Mahler did. Bülow, for instance, habitually added strings and woodwinds, and used other kinds of brass instruments. This was standard practice in late 19th century music performances, not only with Beethoven. And it could go much further: in the UK, it was not uncommon to add a pianist to symphony performances to add improvisations.
A pianist at a symphony performance? How would that work?
@@markokassenaar4387 One could use a piano as a basso continuo and play along with the score in a harmonic reduction in 4 voices of the score during tutti passages.
@@markokassenaar4387 Just put them in front of the orchestra like a concert pianist, and have them play along with the symphony, adding improvisations here and there. It was quite common.
@@bomcabedal I knew this was done in Haydn symphonies, but had no clue they applied it to the romantic repertoire, as well..
@@classicallpvault Was that to enhance the sound if there was a small orchestra? Or did they literally improvise with grace notes and everything?
As a Mahler fanatic, this is a day one purchase for me. I'm looking forward to hearing the results.
well done Mark!👏👏
Habe gestern auf der ARD-App die Planeten von Holst mit Francis als Conductor gesehen. Eine der besten liveperformances ever, mindestens zu diesem Stück. Mit demselben Orchester in einer Museumshalle aufgenommen. Fantastisch!
Mal ein großes Lob an den Pauker. Beethoven's Pauken sollten immer schön knackig klingen. Hier tun sie es ohne dabei hart zu sein. Find ich spitze und hat gerade in der Eroica für absolute WOW Momente gesorgt.
Looking forward to these
I never knew about these!
can we listen to this in spotify?
Incredible ❤❤
Gut gemacht, danke!
amazing
Very interesting!
does anyone know if there’s any pdf of the scores available online?
You did well Michael Schumacher
Please can someone tell me which Beethoven symphony this is? 🎻
The seventh
This conductor still somehow managed to bury the horns at 1:07 in spite of Mahler doubling them. That level of ineptitude is almost impressive.
And yet the tune is perfectly audible so you are nitpicking.
@@AndreyRubtsovRU Ah but of course, so long as you can recognize the tune the timbral color hardly matters. After all, it’s not like the singular selling point of this Beethoven cycle is the change in orchestration. Oh, wait…
@@themajor2072 :-). Smart ass, lol
Calm down bro
I would love to hear Beethoven reorchestrated by Tchaikovsky - in my view, the most sensitive and versatile of all late-Romantic era orchestrators - but I doubt it would be as respectful to the original as Mahler was. The mystery with Mahler is how somebody so loyal and devoted to Beethoven could have written (in his original compositions) music which Beethoven would surely have despised.
Maybe you should not post ridiculous assumptions about composer's preferences and apply your personal taste to theirs. ;)
Where do we buy it? Link?
Looking at the description, it is a future release in June 2024.
Si fuera cierto que las orqustaciones de Beethoven tienen problemas por su sordera y necesitaran rectificación, entonces versiones historicistas extraordinarias como las de Harnoncourt en que no se pierde ningún grado de pasión,no existirían.
In other words: how would Beethoven have orchestrated if he had had Mahler's orchestra and Mahler's concert halls?
The Vienna Philharmonic wouldve experienced some serious contrast.
Exactly.
Pues de hecho, sí. Es intocable y es perfecto. ¿Sería tolerable que alguien le metiera mano a las obras de Mahler? Por supuesto que tampoco.
"Getting my wallet"...
If you wanna be a part of a master chef’s dish adding ketchup and mayonnaise
말러가 베토벤보다 더 위대할 경우에만 수정할 수 있다 현실은 그 반대..
Beethoven struggled with orchestration because of his deafness?!? He he and thus us coming from a musician. Composers do not orchestrate listening to a full orchestra. Typically they work at the piano or just have the ability to “hear” music looking at the score.
Composing is one thing. Finer details of orchestration often get worked out in rehearsals and practice. I suppose that is what Francis meant that Mahler meant... :-)
And yet i agree with that thought. He definitely struggles at places in later symphonies more and more. Slow mov of 9 is a disaster.
A riprova di quanto le case discografiche siano allo sbando, comprese quelle cosiddette indipendenti e non solo le multinazionali, ecco trovato l'ennesimo, flebile pretesto, per riproporre ad nauseam la solita minestra, siamo veramente alla frutta! Si raschia il fondo del barile, ma veramente!
Sono d'accordo in linea di principio, ma ammetto che ho sempre desiderato ascoltare questi ritocchi da quando sapevo che Mahler li aveva fatti.
E le sue edizioni delle sinfonie di Schumann sono un'alternativa perfettamente valida all'originale.
@@Quotenwagnerianer Come nel caso di Schumann, i ritocchi di Mahler si riducono ad un allargamento dell'organico orchestrale che veniva incontro al gusto dell'epoca e quindi ad un addensamento del suono e quindi ad una eccessiva romanticizzazione del linguaggio beethoveniano che è decisamente datata e che discograficamente la si poteva già rilevare anche nelle interpretazioni di un Furtwaengler o di un Klemperer, solo per fare i primi due nomi che mi vengono in mente, perciò nulla di autenticamente nuovo sotto il sole, siamo dalle parti di chi ha riorchestrato e rimaneggiato le sinfonie di Bruckner (tra questi anche lo stesso Mahler), i concerti per pianoforte di Chopin ed "Il lago dei cigni" di Ciaikovski, tanto per intenderci, per carità! Il tutto quindi mi sa assai di muffo e di stantio!
All this is useless if we don't respect Beethoven's rhythm.
Here in the first movement of the 7 the rhythm is the Sicilian _.-_ _ .-_
Here this ever is there!
ruclips.net/video/-0BWOXFo-u4/видео.html
Just leave Beethoven as written.